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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey, this is Jake. We're here at the end

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Speaker 1: of our special presentation of Snowball, a series that was

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Speaker 1: originally produced by Ali Wards and the Australian Broadcasting Corporation.

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Speaker 1: But there's more. I recently got a chance to sit

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Speaker 1: down with Ali and ask all the questions I had

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Speaker 1: about how he made the show, what it was like

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Speaker 1: to report on his own family, how he feels about

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Speaker 1: the series now, and where everything has ended up since

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Speaker 1: he stopped recording. I really think you're going to like it,

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Speaker 1: So sit back and enjoy.

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Speaker 2: Remind me, so, where is your hometown? Like, where did

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Speaker 2: you grow up?

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Speaker 1: Again?

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Speaker 3: England?

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Speaker 4: So I'm a kay I'm from New Zealand, but I'm

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Speaker 4: speaking to you today from Sydney, where I live.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 4: You know, one of the things to mention here is

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Speaker 4: this is literally the first time that I have been

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Speaker 4: in a studio for this whole project. The whole thing

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Speaker 4: was recorded in hotel rooms in my apartment in New

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Speaker 4: York Under. Australians called them doners like douve the bedspread. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, all this sort of stuff. So this is

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Speaker 4: the first time I've been in a studio for the

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Speaker 4: entire Snowball project.

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Speaker 1: That's cool. We're honored that that's the case. The whole

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Speaker 1: thing was just it was so great. It was very compelling.

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Speaker 1: It was also very charming because and I'm sure a

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Speaker 1: lot of listeners had this experience that, like, your family

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Speaker 1: felt like they could have been my family or the

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Speaker 1: family next door, and you did.

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Speaker 2: You did such a.

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Speaker 1: Great job of bringing your family in and making it

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Speaker 1: accessible and making us care about that and feel so

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Speaker 1: invested in the story.

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Speaker 2: It really just got me right away.

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Speaker 3: That's great, man. Yeah, it is a family story.

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Speaker 4: I think family is one of the key themes of it,

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Speaker 4: and that made it what it.

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Speaker 3: Was, but it also made it difficult, you know.

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Speaker 4: I mean, so you know talking about definitely reporting on

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Speaker 4: your own family and the dynamics with that, and I

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Speaker 4: think like the strength, as you know better than anybody

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Speaker 4: of podcasting and recording audio, is you can sort of

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Speaker 4: disarm people by you're not rocking up with a camera

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Speaker 4: crew and you know, five different TV cameras in people's faces.

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Speaker 4: It's just you and a microphone. And I think that

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Speaker 4: is very personal and disarming, and that helps podcast reporting,

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Speaker 4: and that helped me with the family. I think if

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Speaker 4: I had more crew around me or anything like that.

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Speaker 4: For another medium, it wouldn't have got the result that

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Speaker 4: it did.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I've got so many questions about how

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Speaker 1: you did it, and I I mean, I have a

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Speaker 1: lot of admiration for you tackling this. I don't know

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Speaker 1: that quite honestly, I would have the guts to go

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Speaker 1: and do this on my own family a right, because

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Speaker 1: it's really a high wire act. I mean, any story

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Speaker 1: report is a high wire act. And you want to

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Speaker 1: do right by your sources. You want them to feel

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Speaker 1: they weren't burned. You want to balance the truth. But

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Speaker 1: when the sources of your own family member, it just

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Speaker 1: seems like the stakes are exceptionally hot.

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Speaker 4: They are totally and every family has a story. Though

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Speaker 4: now I'm interested as to what the help heern family

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Speaker 4: story could be. And I think this and so many

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Speaker 4: people reaching out to me about similar stories that have

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Speaker 4: happened to them after listening to this tells me that

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Speaker 4: there's some very interesting stuff going on. Like every family

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Speaker 4: ye totally quirky and has a background story. And it

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Speaker 4: just happened that I actually went back to New Zealand.

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Speaker 4: It was around the time of my oldest brother Simon's birthday,

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Speaker 4: and the whole story of how this thing came about

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Speaker 4: is around that. And I had a year off from

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Speaker 4: my job here at the ABC. I was working at

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Speaker 4: a music radio station called Triple J and I went

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Speaker 4: back to New Zealand because my dad around that time

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Speaker 4: was having a quadruple heart bypass, and I kind of thought,

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Speaker 4: you know, this is one of those junctures of life

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Speaker 4: where you want to ask your dad something if it's

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Speaker 4: the last time you speak to him, you know, And

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Speaker 4: I took her recorder and sat with him and started

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Speaker 4: asking him questions about his philosophies on life and his

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Speaker 4: childhood and stuff like that. And then we got into

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Speaker 4: this story and there was a lot of as you

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Speaker 4: hear in the show, a lot of wait, what whoa

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Speaker 4: hang on? And then have you got that document? Can

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Speaker 4: I see that? And I knew what happened. We lost

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Speaker 4: the home and everything, so I couldn't miss that. But

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Speaker 4: when I sat down with that and started going through it,

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Speaker 4: that's where this whole thing came from, and it truly unraveled.

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Speaker 1: Where in the timeline was that when you go back

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Speaker 1: to New Zealand, your dad's having this heart bypass, surgery,

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Speaker 1: and you're asking these questions, when is that in relation

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Speaker 1: to when Leslie blew through your lives?

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Speaker 4: About ten years later? So it was all a memory

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Speaker 4: and you know, people had moved on and everything was fine,

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Speaker 4: and so to dive into the story, like we were

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Speaker 4: talking about with the sensitivities and the high wire act

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Speaker 4: with your family to kind of bring up ancient history

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Speaker 4: in a way was another sensitivity of it and a

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Speaker 4: difficulty to sort of say, let's go back to that

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Speaker 4: thing that we've all moved on from.

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Speaker 1: Did you have to coax it out of your dad

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Speaker 1: or did you get the sense that your dad on

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Speaker 1: some of tho was wanting to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: He loves it. No, he you know, he wanted to

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Speaker 3: write a book about it.

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Speaker 4: And I think he never felt like his investigation brought

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Speaker 4: him the closure and the information that he wanted. And

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Speaker 4: we all wondered, well, I wonder what happened with her

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Speaker 4: and what's what was that about? And so Dad was

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Speaker 4: very happy to talk about it, and he had all

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Speaker 4: that the big box of Leslie Docks ready to go,

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Speaker 4: and even to this day, you know, when I told

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Speaker 4: him the other day that I was coming to speak

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Speaker 4: to you, Jake. He said, oh, the American Podcast Network

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Speaker 4: and I was like yeah, and he said maybe finally

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Speaker 4: doctor Phil can oh deathite. I could not believe it's

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Speaker 4: my goal here. Yeah, Doctor Phil. Doctor Phil is the

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Speaker 4: end game for every broadcaster.

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Speaker 3: So it's amazing.

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Speaker 4: I was like, Dad, come on, man, like, what are

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Speaker 4: you talking about with the doctor Phil thing?

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Speaker 3: At every jot that's perfect.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was going to say, pass a message on to

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Speaker 1: your dad that I'm I'm working the.

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Speaker 4: Doctor Phil Phil angele. I can't believe that guy's still going.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, I want to.

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Speaker 1: I want to unpack this bit, but I just want

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Speaker 1: to observe that it's weird. I'm talking about your dad

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Speaker 1: as if I know him because I feel like I

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Speaker 1: know him because you just did such a job of

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Speaker 1: bringing him to life. And the way he talked to

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was just such a he felt like

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Speaker 1: he could have been an uncle of mine.

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Speaker 2: But I wonder if that's a weird thing.

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Speaker 1: Do you encounter people who talk about your parents as

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Speaker 1: if they know them even though they have no idea

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Speaker 1: of a stranger.

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Speaker 4: And you know, work colleagues, to this day, I have people.

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Speaker 3: Sort of refer to my family and I go, oh,

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Speaker 3: where are you from?

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Speaker 4: And they say, oh, no, no, I just listened to

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Speaker 4: the show or whatever, and they are a bunch of kooky,

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Speaker 4: lovable you know. I think one of the things I'm

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Speaker 4: most proud of is it was actually quite an accurate

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Speaker 4: capture of them, and it would be you know that

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Speaker 4: high wire act we were talking about. On reporting of

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Speaker 4: your family, there is a temptation to kind of gloss

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Speaker 4: over things, but I tried to do it warts and

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Speaker 4: all and call them out, call them out on the

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Speaker 4: stupidity of ourselves and our own naivety and some of

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Speaker 4: the things where you're like, come on, man, how did

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Speaker 4: you fall for that?

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Speaker 2: Well, that's why I think really elevates your story.

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Speaker 1: And what really just impressed me was that that's a

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Speaker 1: really hard thing to do and I thought you did

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Speaker 1: it very well. And we'll get into some of those

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Speaker 1: moments in a sec but I'm just interested in this backstory.

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Speaker 1: So you go to interview your dad, what was the

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Speaker 1: moment that you pivoted or you decided or started to

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Speaker 1: think about let's focus on the Leslies story.

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Speaker 4: How did that come about? I mean, I had so

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Speaker 4: many questions. I think that's the first indication of if

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Speaker 4: you have an insatiable desire to ask questions about something,

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Speaker 4: you're onto something.

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Speaker 3: And I found myself a lot of wait, hang on,

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Speaker 3: what and what what?

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Speaker 4: And then you know, by the time you're sort of

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Speaker 4: five or six questions in, and each question opens a

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Speaker 4: door to a cavenous area of the story. You want

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Speaker 4: to walk through those doors. I knew I was onto something,

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Speaker 4: and I had a year off from my regular job,

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Speaker 4: and truthfully, a little bit of it was like what

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Speaker 4: am I going to do? And I was my girlfriend

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Speaker 4: at the time, who is now my wife, was studying

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Speaker 4: international law and got into this master's It was half

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Speaker 4: an Amsterdam, half in New York at Columbia. So I

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Speaker 4: spent the first semester where she was in Amsterdam, and

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Speaker 4: I was there as well, researching and looking up, looking

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Speaker 4: through all those emails that dead had and looking through

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Speaker 4: all the documents and reaching out to people and kind

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Speaker 4: of scoping what the story was about. And then by

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Speaker 4: the time I moved to New York the following year

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Speaker 4: and the following semester, I had contacts in a shell

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Speaker 4: and that's when I really hit the ground.

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Speaker 1: There's another part of this, which is that this is

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Speaker 1: really a story about Greg right and about a relationship

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Speaker 1: that really went spectacularly wrong. And I'm wondering, do you

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Speaker 1: then have to have a conversation with him about whether

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Speaker 1: he's comfortable doing this, because I'm trying to imagine me

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Speaker 1: being in your shoes or me going to my brother

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Speaker 1: and saying, hey, can I do a podcast about your

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Speaker 1: crazy ex? And how that? Like, I don't I can't

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Speaker 1: imagine my brother's saying yes, or me even going through

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Speaker 1: it that And I'm wondering, did you have a conversation

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Speaker 1: with Greg, and if so, what was that conversation?

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Speaker 4: Like, yeah, I mean I didn't just pull out the

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Speaker 4: microphone and start asking questions. It's a challenge and it

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Speaker 4: was something that I think he is super brave to

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Speaker 4: have done. And he is a guy that wears his

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Speaker 4: heart on his sleeve and he is my brother. But

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Speaker 4: he I would also, as objectively as I can say

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Speaker 4: that he is a very kind, open man who has

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Speaker 4: been through a lot, and I think.

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Speaker 3: He liked the.

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Speaker 4: Idea of being able to help other people, to sort

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Speaker 4: of pay it forward, and he really did do that.

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Speaker 4: You know, I've received probably thousands of messages of people

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Speaker 4: that have experienced something like this, and I think he,

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Speaker 4: you know, took one for the team in a way.

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Speaker 1: Was he on board immediately or did it take some

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Speaker 1: convincing or some time before he could of came around

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Speaker 1: to the idea.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I there was definitely times where it

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Speaker 3: was it was a bit sticky.

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Speaker 4: I try to think of it like the story starts

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Speaker 4: with Greg and it ends with Greg, but it's actually

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Speaker 4: about all of us, and it's sort of moreover, is

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Speaker 4: about Leslie, and Greg was the catalyst for telling the story,

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Speaker 4: but he's not the central character.

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Speaker 3: Actually. You know, we had this person.

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Speaker 4: That was an enigma in our lives and was in

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Speaker 4: so many other people's, and that.

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Speaker 3: Was the north Star, if you will.

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Speaker 4: That was kind of the person I was quite literally chasing.

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Speaker 4: And you know, Greg's moved on with his life as

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Speaker 4: well as you hear, and he's got a lovely family,

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Speaker 4: you know. So again, it was not a picking up

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Speaker 4: the pieces kind of interview. It wasn't a hang on. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it was more of a throwback. So I think that

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Speaker 4: help that space helped. I think it helped some healing

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Speaker 4: and some reflection to have happened before we talked about it.

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Speaker 1: When I come up with an idea for a story,

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Speaker 1: I'll often like have this moment of like great enthusiasm

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Speaker 1: where I'm like, Oh, this is this is so, It's

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Speaker 1: going to be great, and I see all the potential

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Speaker 1: in it, and I'll I'll pitch it.

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Speaker 2: And then there's often a moment, often.

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Speaker 1: Shortly after I'll get the green light on it, and

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Speaker 1: I'll think like, oh my god, this is not going

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Speaker 1: to work out like this. What was I thinking? Here

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Speaker 1: are like six reasons this was a bad idea. This

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Speaker 1: is all going on inside my head right as the storyteller.

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Speaker 1: And I'm wondering if, as you were embarking on this process,

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Speaker 1: whether you had moments.

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Speaker 3: Of doubt constantly.

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Speaker 4: You know, I remember when I was in California and

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Speaker 4: I found Leslie and spoke to her in that car park.

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Speaker 4: We listened to the conversation I had with her, and

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Speaker 4: you hear me in the car park kind of thinking, Oh,

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Speaker 4: I feel really sorry for her and I don't want

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Speaker 4: to kind of put anything bad out about her. And

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Speaker 4: so there was moments like that along the way where

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Speaker 4: you go, hang on, maybe this is real, and in

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Speaker 4: a world of lies and make believe and fictional characters

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Speaker 4: and worlds within worlds, you do have these moments where

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Speaker 4: you don't know which ones are real and which isn't,

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Speaker 4: and you don't want to kind of you know, we're

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Speaker 4: trying to be fact based journalists here and you're dealing

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Speaker 4: with the fake emails between each other, and it does

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Speaker 4: get in your head, and a lot of times I

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Speaker 4: was like, how do we even report this? And how

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Speaker 4: do we not only do our due diligence and fact

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Speaker 4: checking and all that kind of stuff, but how do

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Speaker 4: we actually tell somebody this and have it make sense.

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Speaker 1: I have a question, a storytelling question for you, which

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Speaker 1: is that.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense to me?

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Speaker 1: If I'm in your shoes and I'm embarking on this

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Speaker 1: as a storyteller, I am thinking, in my head, the

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Speaker 1: payoff of this is do they find this Leslie character?

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Speaker 1: In fact, when this story first came in, unto our attention,

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Speaker 1: one of the producers to describing me to is the

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Speaker 1: first question I said, do they find her? And they said, yes,

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Speaker 1: they find her. I say, all right, I gotta listen.

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Speaker 1: But I'm wondering, when you started this, how confident did

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Speaker 1: you feel that you were actually going to find her

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Speaker 1: and have that payoff moment of confrontation that you eventually get.

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Speaker 4: Not very confident, but I am a pretty stubborn person,

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Speaker 4: and I sort of in my mind was like, how

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Speaker 4: hard can it be. You know, she's a real person,

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Speaker 4: She's out there, people leave trails.

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Speaker 3: I had leads, you know, I had people to speak

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Speaker 3: to and.

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Speaker 4: The clues that we were getting, like you in episode

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Speaker 4: five with Cameron and Passerobla. And by the way, can

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Speaker 4: I just make a quick apology to the people of

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Speaker 4: northern California and the people of Passeroble for my terrible

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Speaker 4: pronunciation of I think I was saying passer Robls, So

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Speaker 4: apologies to you if you're from that wonderful town for

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Speaker 4: my butchering of the Spanish there.

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Speaker 2: So that's all part of the charm of the show.

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Speaker 3: You know what.

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Speaker 4: I haven't received any mail on that, so maybe I

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Speaker 4: will now that it's an American thing. But I wasn't

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Speaker 4: I was confident something would happen and I wasn't going

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Speaker 4: to give up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I want to talk to you more about

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Speaker 1: that moment, which I think you handled really well, especially

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Speaker 1: it was just such a high stakes moment. But back

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Speaker 1: to your family. One more bit. It's sometimes difficult to

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Speaker 1: convince the victims to talk because they feel this sense

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Speaker 1: of shame, often which they shouldn't. I dealt with this

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Speaker 1: in season six of Truth About Sarah, where she was

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Speaker 1: an exceptional liar. She lied about things that no one

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Speaker 1: would possibly imagine that someone would lie about. But I,

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Speaker 1: in the course of convincing or trying to convince people

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Speaker 1: to talk to me, folks were reluctant because they didn't

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Speaker 1: want They were either ashamed or didn't want to come

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Speaker 1: off as dupes or yeah, and I don't think they

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Speaker 1: did in the season, But I wonder if you could

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Speaker 1: talk about this for a moment, because one reason that

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Speaker 1: I could imagine your family not wanting to participate is

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Speaker 1: this very reason.

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Speaker 2: But yet they.

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Speaker 1: Were able to overcome that and share the story, and

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Speaker 1: they don't and to my mind, come off that way

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Speaker 1: in the story at all. But I'm wondering, was that

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Speaker 1: something to overcome with them or how did you handle that?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, that's really common, And I speak to Maria Konnakova,

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Speaker 4: the psychologist in the show, who I believe does a

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Speaker 4: Pushkin show as well, and I'd listened to a podcast

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Speaker 4: of hers and the literature and the kind of research

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Speaker 4: about conn Art says that they get away with it

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Speaker 4: in so many cases because the victims feel ashamed and

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Speaker 4: they just want to move on with their lives, and

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Speaker 4: therefore they don't report it to police and law enforcement,

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Speaker 4: and the con sort of praise on that level of shame.

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Speaker 4: And you know, I empathized with the people in the

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Speaker 4: Truth about Sarah, particularly those that had their health records

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Speaker 4: and bank account statements and stuff duplicated and reworked to

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Speaker 4: serve her.

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Speaker 3: And the shame is real.

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Speaker 4: And I mentioned I've had lots and lots of messages

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Speaker 4: from people since Snowball came out that have gone through

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Speaker 4: this kind of love fraud, let's call it. You know,

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Speaker 4: whether it's a friendship or a romantic love, there is

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Speaker 4: usually an emotional connection that is then used as access

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Speaker 4: to be able to get what the person wants. And

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Speaker 4: that kind of emotional connection and shame stops people from

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Speaker 4: wanting to do anything. But everybody's reached out to me

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Speaker 4: saying thank you for telling the story. It's made me

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Speaker 4: realize that I'm not alone. And there's a bit in Snowball.

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Speaker 4: My mum says, I feel bad for the others. But

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Speaker 4: it makes me feel less dumb, like I wasn't you know,

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Speaker 4: a clown that was taken advantage of. And these people

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Speaker 4: are very powerful at what they do and they have practice.

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Speaker 4: You know, these things don't come around. And I think

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Speaker 4: the truth about Sarah and Snowball are similar in so

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Speaker 4: many ways, and that the lie is always built on

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Speaker 4: a truth. And Sarah worked at the VA, so she

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Speaker 4: had access to understand, you know, veterans' stories. I think

356
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Speaker 4: they were drawn in because Sarah told them the same

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Speaker 4: story that happened to them. And that's a theme on

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Speaker 4: this shows a dream reflector. That's one of the things

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Speaker 4: that we had in Snowball. And there's even a little

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Speaker 4: sound effect if you listen, whenever we talk about reflecting

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Speaker 4: a dream, it's got a little wind chime that sort

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Speaker 4: of suggests that this is a moment where the person

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Speaker 4: is sucking them in by reflecting their ambitions and their

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Speaker 4: skills and strengths and weaknesses.

365
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Speaker 3: But it did a big difference. I think with Sarah.

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Speaker 4: Sarah is humble, and part of her charm was her

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Speaker 4: humility and people thinking that she was just cracking on

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Speaker 4: with her life despite all those challenges and they were

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Speaker 4: enamored with that, whereas Leslie was this look at me charismatic, shiny,

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Speaker 4: flashy kind of person that would draw people in through that.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting I'm thinking about, you know, traditionally, like in

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Speaker 1: a story like The Truth about Sarah, I'm just the reporter, right,

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Speaker 1: And I've always had this idea that in those sorts

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Speaker 1: of stories, your job is to kind of stay out

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Speaker 1: of the way, or to only insert yourself at moments

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Speaker 1: where somehow, you know it reveals something about the story,

377
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Speaker 1: but it's really not about me. You're in quite a

378
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Speaker 1: different situation with this because it's such a personal story.

379
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Speaker 1: You are a part of the story, and I appreciate

380
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Speaker 1: it at times when you talked about that, for example,

381
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Speaker 1: you said, there is one part in which your brother

382
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Speaker 1: was going through a hard time, and you know, he

383
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Speaker 1: was kind of breaking breaking down or tearing up a

384
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Speaker 1: little bit, And you said, I had this instinct to

385
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Speaker 1: turn my recorder on because I was a reporter, But

386
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Speaker 1: then I realized that I was a brother first, and

387
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Speaker 1: so I was like, of course not. And I'm wondering,

388
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Speaker 1: was that something that you dealt with that you felt

389
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Speaker 1: like was present a lot or just occasionally and and

390
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Speaker 1: and and how did.

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Speaker 2: You deal with that?

392
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Speaker 4: Yeah, being a family member and trying to walk that

393
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Speaker 4: line between pressing for information and not letting something that's

394
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Speaker 4: unclear go past, versus also knowing I'm sitting down with

395
00:21:12,716 --> 00:21:16,156
Speaker 4: you for Christmas lunch later this year and I don't

396
00:21:16,196 --> 00:21:18,716
Speaker 4: want to say anything that might have seen you.

397
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Speaker 3: That was tough.

398
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Speaker 4: And it's the instinct to put the tape on is

399
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Speaker 4: there all the time?

400
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Speaker 3: And really for that year that I was away.

401
00:21:28,196 --> 00:21:29,796
Speaker 4: That's another aspect of this is I was not in

402
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Speaker 4: New Zealand when I was making this show, so I

403
00:21:32,316 --> 00:21:35,516
Speaker 4: was this distant person and having chats like we are now,

404
00:21:36,076 --> 00:21:40,676
Speaker 4: you know from Afar, and I did not speak to

405
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Speaker 4: my family for a year that when it wasn't about

406
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Speaker 4: this thing.

407
00:21:45,996 --> 00:21:47,716
Speaker 1: Did you feel that in some ways that may have

408
00:21:47,796 --> 00:21:50,476
Speaker 1: made you closer to them? Though, because on the one hand,

409
00:21:50,516 --> 00:21:52,436
Speaker 1: like you could say, oh, it's this is a work project,

410
00:21:52,436 --> 00:21:54,356
Speaker 1: but it's really so much more than that. I wonder

411
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Speaker 1: if you felt that by doing this work project your

412
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Speaker 1: you're I don't know that it changed your personal relationship

413
00:22:01,116 --> 00:22:02,916
Speaker 1: for or to write you closer.

414
00:22:02,756 --> 00:22:05,716
Speaker 4: It definitely did it helped me understand, as I say

415
00:22:05,996 --> 00:22:10,036
Speaker 4: in the show. You know, something so profound that impacted

416
00:22:10,116 --> 00:22:14,076
Speaker 4: us all in different ways, and it is our family's story.

417
00:22:14,516 --> 00:22:16,476
Speaker 4: You know, it's not just about Greg. It was about

418
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Speaker 4: my mum and dad. It was about my brother Simon.

419
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Speaker 4: It was about my our extended family, you know, aunties

420
00:22:20,876 --> 00:22:23,956
Speaker 4: and uncles and everybody kind of like rallied around and

421
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Speaker 4: got involved in this.

422
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Speaker 3: But you know, especially.

423
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Speaker 4: Simon, when we were driving around in a muscle car

424
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Speaker 4: with our Hawaiian shirts on.

425
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Speaker 2: And loved that. Loved it.

426
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Speaker 4: I don't imagine doing that. Like we still talk about it.

427
00:22:36,636 --> 00:22:38,276
Speaker 4: He was saying to me the other day that he

428
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Speaker 4: just he often thinks of that. And when I was

429
00:22:40,636 --> 00:22:43,236
Speaker 4: preparing to talk to you, I jumped in my archive

430
00:22:43,316 --> 00:22:46,436
Speaker 4: and we shot a lot of like mobile phone footage

431
00:22:46,436 --> 00:22:49,076
Speaker 4: and stuff while we were driving around, and I sent

432
00:22:49,116 --> 00:22:51,516
Speaker 4: him in one of the videos of us pulling up

433
00:22:51,556 --> 00:22:54,276
Speaker 4: to this hotel where she had worked, and you know,

434
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Speaker 4: that night we snuck into the swimming pool and drank

435
00:22:56,476 --> 00:23:00,036
Speaker 4: some beers and it was just a awesome little road

436
00:23:00,036 --> 00:23:00,796
Speaker 4: trip with my brother.

437
00:23:01,236 --> 00:23:03,796
Speaker 2: Yeah, that comes across and it feels so real.

438
00:23:03,916 --> 00:23:07,316
Speaker 1: I mean I've heard versions of that that have felt contrived,

439
00:23:07,836 --> 00:23:10,236
Speaker 1: that feel like a contrivance. That whole trip you did

440
00:23:10,316 --> 00:23:15,076
Speaker 1: with him, it really did feel it felt real.

441
00:23:16,716 --> 00:23:19,676
Speaker 2: I wonder your family is very.

442
00:23:19,516 --> 00:23:23,676
Speaker 1: Gracious, Like there's clearly like hurt there and they went

443
00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:26,476
Speaker 1: through a really rough time because of what Leslie did.

444
00:23:28,716 --> 00:23:32,836
Speaker 1: I didn't hear anger through this, And I would think,

445
00:23:33,036 --> 00:23:35,436
Speaker 1: quite honestly, if I'm putting myself in your shoes and

446
00:23:36,316 --> 00:23:40,236
Speaker 1: your family shoes, I think it would be quite understandable

447
00:23:40,676 --> 00:23:46,796
Speaker 1: for there to be anger. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering

448
00:23:46,796 --> 00:23:51,156
Speaker 1: about that. Was it just Is it just that that

449
00:23:51,316 --> 00:23:53,716
Speaker 1: time had passed and they were able to see it,

450
00:23:53,836 --> 00:23:57,196
Speaker 1: or were they just not the angry type or just

451
00:23:58,036 --> 00:23:58,996
Speaker 1: what explains that?

452
00:24:00,316 --> 00:24:05,596
Speaker 4: I don't think they are the angry type, to be honest,

453
00:24:05,716 --> 00:24:08,596
Speaker 4: you know, I think there is so many moments in

454
00:24:08,596 --> 00:24:11,076
Speaker 4: the show where you hear them talk about the feeling

455
00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:14,476
Speaker 4: that they had when the walls fell down and the

456
00:24:14,476 --> 00:24:19,516
Speaker 4: feeling of devastation, and in a way that being focused

457
00:24:19,556 --> 00:24:25,076
Speaker 4: on the reality rather than some type of revenge or something,

458
00:24:25,076 --> 00:24:29,116
Speaker 4: because being angry is only going to make you feel

459
00:24:30,116 --> 00:24:32,756
Speaker 4: worse when there were so many practical things to deal with,

460
00:24:32,836 --> 00:24:34,596
Speaker 4: like where are we going to live? And again, I

461
00:24:34,636 --> 00:24:36,516
Speaker 4: want to paint a real picture here. I think that

462
00:24:36,516 --> 00:24:40,316
Speaker 4: they were probably really pissed off when it happened. And yeah,

463
00:24:40,476 --> 00:24:42,596
Speaker 4: when it went down, you know, as I said, if

464
00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:45,916
Speaker 4: I'd got the microphone out at that time, maybe there

465
00:24:45,916 --> 00:24:49,356
Speaker 4: would have been a few beeps. Even though there's swear

466
00:24:49,356 --> 00:24:53,676
Speaker 4: words throughout the show, you know, language warning, maybe maybe

467
00:24:53,676 --> 00:24:56,076
Speaker 4: there would have been some even more swear words if

468
00:24:56,116 --> 00:24:59,716
Speaker 4: I'd recorded it at the time. But they're nice people,

469
00:24:59,876 --> 00:25:02,316
Speaker 4: you know, And I maybe I was more angry. I

470
00:25:03,556 --> 00:25:04,916
Speaker 4: was the one who kind of went out and chased

471
00:25:04,956 --> 00:25:05,436
Speaker 4: the story.

472
00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:09,956
Speaker 2: And well, let me that's the question. Were you angry?

473
00:25:10,756 --> 00:25:13,996
Speaker 4: Well, I, you know, I left New Zealand to go

474
00:25:14,076 --> 00:25:18,476
Speaker 4: on my OI the Overseas experience, and I walked out

475
00:25:18,516 --> 00:25:23,036
Speaker 4: of my family home that day and I never went back, and.

476
00:25:25,356 --> 00:25:28,116
Speaker 3: I was very upset.

477
00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:31,516
Speaker 4: But I was learning about this from when I was

478
00:25:31,516 --> 00:25:33,516
Speaker 4: living in London at the time, and I was kind

479
00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:36,636
Speaker 4: of like I wanted something to happen. I was like,

480
00:25:36,676 --> 00:25:37,876
Speaker 4: this surely isn't fair.

481
00:25:37,956 --> 00:25:38,116
Speaker 1: You know.

482
00:25:38,156 --> 00:25:40,436
Speaker 4: The idea of justice is part of this story and

483
00:25:40,516 --> 00:25:43,236
Speaker 4: part of these kind of cons and you come away

484
00:25:43,716 --> 00:25:46,196
Speaker 4: wanting justice. And I don't know if that's the same

485
00:25:46,236 --> 00:25:49,716
Speaker 4: as being angry or wanting revenge. You know, the world

486
00:25:49,716 --> 00:25:54,316
Speaker 4: that we live in, we have expectations of do something bad, something,

487
00:25:54,596 --> 00:25:56,716
Speaker 4: We'll catch up with you. And that's one of the

488
00:25:56,716 --> 00:26:01,076
Speaker 4: frustrations people have with Snowball and with cons and these stories.

489
00:26:01,436 --> 00:26:03,196
Speaker 4: People reach out to me and say, it's so annoying

490
00:26:03,236 --> 00:26:05,396
Speaker 4: she got away. That's my you know, one star, because

491
00:26:05,436 --> 00:26:12,676
Speaker 4: she didn't get caught at the end. And that is understandable,

492
00:26:12,716 --> 00:26:14,916
Speaker 4: and I think we probably have a feeling of that,

493
00:26:14,996 --> 00:26:17,836
Speaker 4: like where is the justice? But there is this person

494
00:26:17,876 --> 00:26:20,516
Speaker 4: that's out there just you know, running herself into a

495
00:26:20,516 --> 00:26:25,036
Speaker 4: brick wall all the time, and we have empathy for

496
00:26:25,076 --> 00:26:28,156
Speaker 4: that and go, actually, maybe can you help yourself because

497
00:26:28,156 --> 00:26:30,876
Speaker 4: you're going around affecting all these other people. But they

498
00:26:31,076 --> 00:26:33,716
Speaker 4: eventually move on. The people in the Truth about Sarah

499
00:26:33,796 --> 00:26:37,356
Speaker 4: that were in the courtroom were all very hurt, and

500
00:26:37,796 --> 00:26:42,236
Speaker 4: you know, many of them referred to never probably never

501
00:26:42,236 --> 00:26:45,196
Speaker 4: getting over it. But they've all ultimately moved on with

502
00:26:45,236 --> 00:26:47,916
Speaker 4: their lives. And it's Sarah that sits in that prison cell.

503
00:26:49,436 --> 00:26:55,116
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was not left with the feeling of, oh

504
00:26:55,116 --> 00:26:57,276
Speaker 1: my god, she got away with it, and kind of

505
00:26:57,716 --> 00:26:58,876
Speaker 1: unsatisfied with that.

506
00:26:58,916 --> 00:26:59,796
Speaker 2: I felt.

507
00:27:01,036 --> 00:27:04,876
Speaker 1: Weirdly, I felt pity for her, which is not what

508
00:27:04,916 --> 00:27:05,876
Speaker 1: I was expecting.

509
00:27:07,956 --> 00:27:11,596
Speaker 4: Why why did you you feel petty because her life is.

510
00:27:13,076 --> 00:27:14,996
Speaker 3: Broken? Right? Yeah?

511
00:27:15,036 --> 00:27:17,316
Speaker 1: I mean you part of it is I know how

512
00:27:17,316 --> 00:27:20,036
Speaker 1: it ends, right, Like, we know that we know that

513
00:27:20,116 --> 00:27:23,196
Speaker 1: your brother, we don't know all the details, but we

514
00:27:23,276 --> 00:27:25,716
Speaker 1: know enough to know that your brother moved on, that

515
00:27:25,756 --> 00:27:28,396
Speaker 1: he has a family, that he's doing Okay, that we

516
00:27:28,436 --> 00:27:30,316
Speaker 1: meet your parents and we understand that even though they

517
00:27:30,396 --> 00:27:33,316
Speaker 1: lost their home, that they're like, they're loving parents. We

518
00:27:33,356 --> 00:27:37,716
Speaker 1: see the camaraderie between you and your brother. Like part

519
00:27:37,716 --> 00:27:40,276
Speaker 1: of the joy of listening to this show is that

520
00:27:40,876 --> 00:27:44,716
Speaker 1: there's love and there's laughter and and you guys make

521
00:27:44,756 --> 00:27:47,636
Speaker 1: it through this thing, right, And then you just see

522
00:27:47,636 --> 00:27:51,276
Speaker 1: this character that is Leslie, and the person that emerges.

523
00:27:52,596 --> 00:27:55,156
Speaker 2: Is really kind of like and I don't mean this.

524
00:27:55,196 --> 00:27:58,036
Speaker 1: Judgmentally, I just mean this, This was my honest take,

525
00:27:58,156 --> 00:28:00,956
Speaker 1: was a kind of lonely, more pathetic person.

526
00:28:01,676 --> 00:28:02,556
Speaker 3: Yeah.

527
00:28:01,996 --> 00:28:06,316
Speaker 1: And I don't you at that moment, I'm not hungering

528
00:28:06,516 --> 00:28:09,076
Speaker 1: for vengeance for her to be brought away in cuffs.

529
00:28:09,436 --> 00:28:13,636
Speaker 1: It's almost this feeling of like, look how it's played out, Like,

530
00:28:14,036 --> 00:28:16,636
Speaker 1: look where this is left her, All this hustling, all

531
00:28:16,676 --> 00:28:19,756
Speaker 1: this deceit, all this fraud, look what she has. And

532
00:28:19,796 --> 00:28:23,236
Speaker 1: then weirdly with your family even though they were the

533
00:28:23,316 --> 00:28:27,756
Speaker 1: quote unquote victim here, like you wouldn't switch spots for

534
00:28:27,796 --> 00:28:31,636
Speaker 1: a second, and it so I didn't. I left kind

535
00:28:31,636 --> 00:28:34,876
Speaker 1: of weirdly satisfied in the sense that like it's not

536
00:28:34,916 --> 00:28:37,516
Speaker 1: that she got what she deserved, but like whatever feelings

537
00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:40,596
Speaker 1: I might have had for wanting vengeance or her getting

538
00:28:40,596 --> 00:28:43,076
Speaker 1: her come up and were not there, because I kind

539
00:28:43,076 --> 00:28:44,356
Speaker 1: of felt like, look where she is.

540
00:28:44,756 --> 00:28:49,676
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, family triumphs and family always will. If

541
00:28:49,796 --> 00:28:52,196
Speaker 4: there's a strong family, Is there anything more powerful in

542
00:28:52,196 --> 00:28:54,596
Speaker 4: the world, you know? And I'm lucky, you know, I

543
00:28:55,276 --> 00:28:58,156
Speaker 4: love my family, We love each other. We emerged stronger

544
00:28:58,196 --> 00:29:02,116
Speaker 4: from this. I think that's in the show. And it

545
00:29:02,356 --> 00:29:07,356
Speaker 4: was a binding experience for us. And it's totally true

546
00:29:07,356 --> 00:29:12,556
Speaker 4: that the person I found was a wrecking ball, going

547
00:29:12,636 --> 00:29:16,276
Speaker 4: from one spot in her life that would have some

548
00:29:16,316 --> 00:29:20,476
Speaker 4: cataclysmic end and then moving on to the next and

549
00:29:20,516 --> 00:29:21,236
Speaker 4: starting again.

550
00:29:21,476 --> 00:29:25,396
Speaker 3: And how awful is that? And that's why it's like, you.

551
00:29:25,356 --> 00:29:28,556
Speaker 4: Know, hey, can this be a wake up call for

552
00:29:28,596 --> 00:29:30,116
Speaker 4: you to stop doing this stuff?

553
00:29:30,236 --> 00:29:30,796
Speaker 3: As well?

554
00:29:32,476 --> 00:29:35,076
Speaker 4: I don't think I would trade spots You're totally right.

555
00:29:35,196 --> 00:29:40,236
Speaker 4: I am very happy to have been able to show people.

556
00:29:40,476 --> 00:29:43,596
Speaker 4: I guess what my family response was like, and I

557
00:29:43,596 --> 00:29:47,716
Speaker 4: hope that might help other people. She's a very broken

558
00:29:47,756 --> 00:29:50,316
Speaker 4: person that can't help but doing this stuff. And that

559
00:29:50,436 --> 00:29:53,036
Speaker 4: is the words of the eighteen year old girl that

560
00:29:53,076 --> 00:29:57,556
Speaker 4: you hear in the story who was the daughter of Cameron.

561
00:29:57,596 --> 00:29:58,876
Speaker 3: In episode five.

562
00:30:10,356 --> 00:30:14,316
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the confrontation you have with Leslie, which

563
00:30:14,356 --> 00:30:20,796
Speaker 1: is kind of remarkable that that ended up happening. There's

564
00:30:20,836 --> 00:30:24,436
Speaker 1: a lot of things that come out there, but one

565
00:30:24,876 --> 00:30:28,756
Speaker 1: is that I was listening to it. It was funny.

566
00:30:28,796 --> 00:30:30,956
Speaker 1: I was actually out in my driveway and I was

567
00:30:30,956 --> 00:30:32,796
Speaker 1: doing like the middle aged dad thing, which is I

568
00:30:32,876 --> 00:30:34,836
Speaker 1: was cleaning my Toyota Highlander.

569
00:30:37,236 --> 00:30:39,316
Speaker 2: But the confrontations that's come on, and of.

570
00:30:39,236 --> 00:30:41,476
Speaker 1: Course I just like put the sponge down and I'm like,

571
00:30:41,916 --> 00:30:46,956
Speaker 1: oh man, it's on. And she does the thing like

572
00:30:47,436 --> 00:30:49,996
Speaker 1: pretty early on. If I recall where she suggests that

573
00:30:50,036 --> 00:30:56,116
Speaker 1: you come by tomorrow and the journalist to me was

574
00:30:56,196 --> 00:31:00,436
Speaker 1: like no, no, no, no, no, don't but you you

575
00:31:00,556 --> 00:31:05,196
Speaker 1: kept her talking, And I wonder if in that moment,

576
00:31:05,676 --> 00:31:07,876
Speaker 1: did you think, like this moment that I have in

577
00:31:07,916 --> 00:31:10,236
Speaker 1: the car is probably all on when a gat like

578
00:31:10,276 --> 00:31:11,316
Speaker 1: what was going through your hand?

579
00:31:11,356 --> 00:31:11,996
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

580
00:31:11,996 --> 00:31:15,236
Speaker 4: Man. When I got up there and the car is

581
00:31:15,356 --> 00:31:19,956
Speaker 4: running and the door is ajar, I was thinking, Okay,

582
00:31:19,996 --> 00:31:23,636
Speaker 4: she's going to drive away, but I need give me

583
00:31:23,676 --> 00:31:25,596
Speaker 4: thirty seconds and that might be enough.

584
00:31:25,476 --> 00:31:27,636
Speaker 3: To get something here.

585
00:31:28,236 --> 00:31:32,396
Speaker 4: And Maria Konikova says it and that they just love

586
00:31:32,476 --> 00:31:34,316
Speaker 4: to talk about themselves and what they do, and they're

587
00:31:34,356 --> 00:31:35,516
Speaker 4: proud of their things.

588
00:31:35,516 --> 00:31:36,156
Speaker 3: And I think she.

589
00:31:39,116 --> 00:31:41,116
Speaker 4: It was pretty crazy when you think about it, that

590
00:31:42,156 --> 00:31:45,156
Speaker 4: more than ten years later, all of that was on

591
00:31:45,196 --> 00:31:48,756
Speaker 4: the top of her brain that I was asking her about,

592
00:31:48,756 --> 00:31:51,676
Speaker 4: and even all the way back to Hawaii, which was,

593
00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:56,276
Speaker 4: you know, even longer ago, she could still instantly recall

594
00:31:56,316 --> 00:32:01,076
Speaker 4: these things and be able to swerve around certain moments

595
00:32:01,116 --> 00:32:02,476
Speaker 4: like the Eric Dewiss thing.

596
00:32:03,636 --> 00:32:05,636
Speaker 3: And she's very good.

597
00:32:05,716 --> 00:32:07,836
Speaker 4: Like when you think about that, if somebody rocked up

598
00:32:07,876 --> 00:32:10,076
Speaker 4: to me and asked me about something I was involved

599
00:32:10,076 --> 00:32:12,116
Speaker 4: in ten years ago, my first questions would be like,

600
00:32:12,156 --> 00:32:13,956
Speaker 4: hang on, what he remind me?

601
00:32:14,436 --> 00:32:16,076
Speaker 3: Can you tell me about that?

602
00:32:16,196 --> 00:32:19,636
Speaker 4: But she was ready to go, and we did plan

603
00:32:19,796 --> 00:32:22,676
Speaker 4: to meet up the next day because I kicked myself

604
00:32:22,716 --> 00:32:24,636
Speaker 4: listening back to it on all the things I didn't

605
00:32:24,676 --> 00:32:25,956
Speaker 4: ask in that moment, Like.

606
00:32:27,596 --> 00:32:28,876
Speaker 3: God, I still have so many questions.

607
00:32:29,276 --> 00:32:31,876
Speaker 4: I actually wish that I went more in on Eric

608
00:32:31,916 --> 00:32:33,876
Speaker 4: t Weiss and actually just came out with it and said,

609
00:32:33,876 --> 00:32:34,596
Speaker 4: look are you him?

610
00:32:34,636 --> 00:32:37,396
Speaker 3: Are you pretending to be him? And questions along those lines.

611
00:32:37,796 --> 00:32:41,596
Speaker 4: I didn't, you know, ask about the snowball line itself.

612
00:32:41,676 --> 00:32:44,396
Speaker 4: There were so many things that I was juggling and

613
00:32:44,436 --> 00:32:46,476
Speaker 4: I missed, and I did think that I might actually

614
00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:49,156
Speaker 4: have a second shot at speaking to her, so I

615
00:32:49,196 --> 00:32:53,036
Speaker 4: didn't want to lay all my cards on the table

616
00:32:53,076 --> 00:32:54,276
Speaker 4: in that moment, you know what I mean.

617
00:32:54,356 --> 00:32:57,876
Speaker 1: But you were patient with her, Like granted, I get it,

618
00:32:57,916 --> 00:32:59,836
Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying that like kind of artists

619
00:33:00,036 --> 00:33:03,756
Speaker 1: like to talk about themselves. That being said, it's kind

620
00:33:03,796 --> 00:33:05,916
Speaker 1: of amazing that she didn't just drive away. And I

621
00:33:05,916 --> 00:33:08,356
Speaker 1: think that part of it is the fact that you

622
00:33:08,396 --> 00:33:11,556
Speaker 1: didn't start off off by just like confronting her with

623
00:33:11,596 --> 00:33:14,516
Speaker 1: her lies. You actually started off and I didn't feel

624
00:33:14,676 --> 00:33:16,596
Speaker 1: I felt it was genuine. You say to her right

625
00:33:16,636 --> 00:33:19,636
Speaker 1: off the bat, I'm recording this conversation. I've been doing

626
00:33:19,636 --> 00:33:22,556
Speaker 1: a podcast, so there's there's not the seat there. You're

627
00:33:22,556 --> 00:33:25,516
Speaker 1: you're letting you know, you're checking all the boxes. But

628
00:33:25,556 --> 00:33:28,156
Speaker 1: then you're like, you know, there's there's two sides of

629
00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:32,436
Speaker 1: a story. I'd love to understand your perspective. And then

630
00:33:33,076 --> 00:33:36,676
Speaker 1: she starts talking. And then it's a few minutes in

631
00:33:36,836 --> 00:33:38,556
Speaker 1: before you slowly start to.

632
00:33:38,556 --> 00:33:42,236
Speaker 2: Call her on some of on some of the lies

633
00:33:42,236 --> 00:33:42,836
Speaker 2: that she told them.

634
00:33:42,876 --> 00:33:45,476
Speaker 1: By that point, she's kind of bought into the conversation

635
00:33:46,276 --> 00:33:49,596
Speaker 1: and so so she actually starts to engage you, at

636
00:33:49,676 --> 00:33:51,756
Speaker 1: least on some of those those issues. Yea.

637
00:33:52,196 --> 00:33:55,836
Speaker 4: And by the end of it, I'm reeling off her

638
00:33:55,916 --> 00:33:58,356
Speaker 4: criminal record, you know what I mean, Like there's a

639
00:33:58,356 --> 00:34:01,876
Speaker 4: bit where I'm like, you, you were charged with chick

640
00:34:01,916 --> 00:34:04,316
Speaker 4: fraud and pleaded guilty to burglary too, and all this

641
00:34:04,396 --> 00:34:04,916
Speaker 4: kind of thing.

642
00:34:04,756 --> 00:34:04,996
Speaker 3: And so.

643
00:34:06,836 --> 00:34:09,476
Speaker 4: Yes, I did go in and we were chopped it

644
00:34:09,476 --> 00:34:13,036
Speaker 4: at the beginning about being palms open, and I think

645
00:34:13,956 --> 00:34:19,156
Speaker 4: this isn't really about proving things. And you know, I

646
00:34:19,196 --> 00:34:22,116
Speaker 4: spoke about justice before and will justice be done?

647
00:34:22,116 --> 00:34:25,196
Speaker 3: And what does that mean? But in a.

648
00:34:25,156 --> 00:34:29,436
Speaker 4: Way, it's about understanding the mind mechanics more than the

649
00:34:29,516 --> 00:34:35,236
Speaker 4: logistical fraud mechanics, and so who really cares about the

650
00:34:35,276 --> 00:34:37,956
Speaker 4: forged signature that I can show and say, Hugh the

651
00:34:37,996 --> 00:34:39,956
Speaker 4: curve goes off on the end when he does it,

652
00:34:39,996 --> 00:34:41,876
Speaker 4: but on this one it's got a little bit like,

653
00:34:42,076 --> 00:34:44,996
Speaker 4: you know, getting into the detail of that isn't really

654
00:34:45,196 --> 00:34:49,276
Speaker 4: what's interesting. What's interesting to me is why do you

655
00:34:49,316 --> 00:34:51,556
Speaker 4: do this stuff like it? Like, what are you thinking?

656
00:34:51,916 --> 00:34:52,636
Speaker 4: What's the point?

657
00:34:54,236 --> 00:34:55,036
Speaker 2: I mean, part of.

658
00:34:54,996 --> 00:34:59,156
Speaker 1: Me also wondered, Okay, so she's working at a grocery

659
00:34:59,196 --> 00:35:02,596
Speaker 1: store at this point, what happened to all the money?

660
00:35:02,796 --> 00:35:05,316
Speaker 1: Because for example, what happened to the money that your

661
00:35:05,356 --> 00:35:08,556
Speaker 1: parents lost? Was that was that money that all ended

662
00:35:08,636 --> 00:35:09,036
Speaker 1: up with her?

663
00:35:09,356 --> 00:35:11,676
Speaker 3: No where did Yeah?

664
00:35:11,716 --> 00:35:14,036
Speaker 4: And I think, you know, just in general with con

665
00:35:14,236 --> 00:35:18,436
Speaker 4: artists and the psychs speaks to this in Snowball, and

666
00:35:18,476 --> 00:35:20,916
Speaker 4: I think it's probably true of the truth about Sarah

667
00:35:20,996 --> 00:35:22,276
Speaker 4: as well, is.

668
00:35:22,236 --> 00:35:23,756
Speaker 3: They're not in it for the money.

669
00:35:23,356 --> 00:35:27,076
Speaker 4: They very rarely get away with lots of cash, and

670
00:35:27,716 --> 00:35:29,756
Speaker 4: as Maria says, they could probably make a lot more

671
00:35:29,756 --> 00:35:33,956
Speaker 4: money in more legitimate ways because they are often quite smart.

672
00:35:34,076 --> 00:35:37,356
Speaker 4: And you know, if Leslie had continued the businesses that

673
00:35:37,396 --> 00:35:40,036
Speaker 4: she had, she would probably be sitting on a massive

674
00:35:40,076 --> 00:35:42,276
Speaker 4: nest eb right now. But she certainly didn't get away

675
00:35:42,276 --> 00:35:47,196
Speaker 4: with the total of the money that was lost. You know,

676
00:35:47,236 --> 00:35:50,116
Speaker 4: in our case there was you know, bank foreclosures and

677
00:35:50,516 --> 00:35:53,236
Speaker 4: you know that kind of thing, but in some of

678
00:35:53,316 --> 00:35:56,716
Speaker 4: the other victims similar sort of stuff. But there is

679
00:35:57,076 --> 00:36:01,756
Speaker 4: definitely vast lump sums that go missing to the tunes

680
00:36:01,796 --> 00:36:05,996
Speaker 4: of hundreds of thousands of dollars in total, and I

681
00:36:06,996 --> 00:36:10,836
Speaker 4: think that that fuels a lot lifestyle that is very

682
00:36:11,516 --> 00:36:16,676
Speaker 4: flash in the Pan, and there's gift giving, there's probably

683
00:36:17,556 --> 00:36:19,676
Speaker 4: living the high life. You hear about going to nail

684
00:36:19,716 --> 00:36:23,956
Speaker 4: cellons and you know, spending lots of money, getting champagne

685
00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:26,196
Speaker 4: and many petties and that kind of thing.

686
00:36:26,276 --> 00:36:29,036
Speaker 3: So I think it's a flash in the Pan lifestyle.

687
00:36:29,156 --> 00:36:34,156
Speaker 4: And there is definitely a debt going on where she

688
00:36:34,316 --> 00:36:37,636
Speaker 4: has to kind of pay the previous person a little

689
00:36:37,636 --> 00:36:40,036
Speaker 4: bit to keep them off her back while she looks

690
00:36:40,036 --> 00:36:43,116
Speaker 4: for the next stash to then pay off the person,

691
00:36:43,156 --> 00:36:45,596
Speaker 4: and that pyramid gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

692
00:36:45,636 --> 00:36:47,836
Speaker 3: So when you have all of these.

693
00:36:47,716 --> 00:36:51,476
Speaker 4: Debts, you're servicing those through the money you get from

694
00:36:51,476 --> 00:36:57,436
Speaker 4: the next victim. And it's true that she had some

695
00:36:58,636 --> 00:37:01,716
Speaker 4: debt to her parents from something. I don't know what

696
00:37:01,756 --> 00:37:05,356
Speaker 4: it was, but I wish that I had spoken to them.

697
00:37:06,196 --> 00:37:07,436
Speaker 2: Why didn't you speak to them.

698
00:37:07,636 --> 00:37:09,636
Speaker 3: I tried to, you know, I.

699
00:37:11,916 --> 00:37:13,956
Speaker 4: Very nearly went and knocked on the door at that

700
00:37:14,076 --> 00:37:17,236
Speaker 4: point where we were at their house, and if they

701
00:37:17,276 --> 00:37:18,636
Speaker 4: had answered and I spoke to them, I would have

702
00:37:18,676 --> 00:37:22,596
Speaker 4: actually spoken to them before Leslie. So we kind of thought, oh,

703
00:37:22,636 --> 00:37:24,516
Speaker 4: we should try and speak to her first and then

704
00:37:24,596 --> 00:37:26,556
Speaker 4: and then swing back around to the parents, which we did.

705
00:37:27,996 --> 00:37:30,196
Speaker 4: I very much tried to get you know, I was

706
00:37:30,396 --> 00:37:35,076
Speaker 4: multiple phone calls, emails, we sent them letters and never

707
00:37:35,076 --> 00:37:35,556
Speaker 4: heard back.

708
00:37:35,796 --> 00:37:38,516
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm wondering do you have any sense for whether

709
00:37:38,556 --> 00:37:41,356
Speaker 1: you think that Leslie herself listened to your podcast.

710
00:37:42,476 --> 00:37:45,036
Speaker 4: I don't know whether she listened to the podcast, but

711
00:37:45,076 --> 00:37:47,396
Speaker 4: I know the effect that it's had because there was

712
00:37:47,436 --> 00:37:51,276
Speaker 4: also someone who I ran into in California when I

713
00:37:51,276 --> 00:37:54,996
Speaker 4: was over there who pulled up in a golf buggy

714
00:37:56,036 --> 00:37:59,556
Speaker 4: when Simon and I were doing some interviewing and was

715
00:37:59,756 --> 00:38:03,516
Speaker 4: very much on her side and had a massive goal

716
00:38:03,516 --> 00:38:05,476
Speaker 4: with us and was kind of defending her and saying,

717
00:38:05,716 --> 00:38:07,556
Speaker 4: you know, if you want to talk to her, I'll

718
00:38:07,556 --> 00:38:09,116
Speaker 4: be there. You know, you bitter back off and amos

719
00:38:09,196 --> 00:38:11,516
Speaker 4: kind of thing, And I said, Hey, may I'm just here.

720
00:38:11,636 --> 00:38:13,556
Speaker 4: I would love to speak to you, and ask some questions,

721
00:38:13,716 --> 00:38:18,956
Speaker 4: and then we went home and the show came out,

722
00:38:18,956 --> 00:38:20,836
Speaker 4: and a bit of time went by, and then that

723
00:38:20,876 --> 00:38:26,196
Speaker 4: person reached out to me and had experienced what everyone

724
00:38:26,236 --> 00:38:29,316
Speaker 4: else does eventually, and it all came crashing down and

725
00:38:29,396 --> 00:38:35,716
Speaker 4: Leslie had screwed him over and he had a conversation

726
00:38:35,756 --> 00:38:37,836
Speaker 4: with her, which he sent me.

727
00:38:38,356 --> 00:38:38,836
Speaker 3: He did that.

728
00:38:38,916 --> 00:38:40,796
Speaker 4: I didn't kind of ask him to record anything, but

729
00:38:40,836 --> 00:38:46,476
Speaker 4: he recorded a conversation that he sent me, and she says,

730
00:38:48,476 --> 00:38:51,916
Speaker 4: I can't get a condo. People look me up. This

731
00:38:51,956 --> 00:38:55,156
Speaker 4: thing is ruining my life, or words to that effect.

732
00:38:56,196 --> 00:38:57,236
Speaker 2: How did that make you feel?

733
00:38:58,436 --> 00:39:02,476
Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel bad, like I don't want to this

734
00:39:02,636 --> 00:39:05,676
Speaker 4: podcast and the story is the only ongoing connection to this,

735
00:39:06,236 --> 00:39:07,996
Speaker 4: And so people reach out to me and they'll say,

736
00:39:08,076 --> 00:39:09,716
Speaker 4: you know, I've had a run in I need your help,

737
00:39:09,756 --> 00:39:12,796
Speaker 4: And I'm like, hey man, I'm done like this is

738
00:39:13,036 --> 00:39:14,956
Speaker 4: I'm not going to spend the rest of my life

739
00:39:15,276 --> 00:39:18,836
Speaker 4: chasing this person around, and so I don't want I

740
00:39:18,876 --> 00:39:21,596
Speaker 4: actually feel bad that the story that I've done, and

741
00:39:21,596 --> 00:39:24,596
Speaker 4: even that I'm talking to you today about, you know,

742
00:39:24,676 --> 00:39:28,516
Speaker 4: these kind of fresh things. It will continue to chase

743
00:39:28,556 --> 00:39:31,796
Speaker 4: her if you like. But it's also that very human

744
00:39:32,116 --> 00:39:35,476
Speaker 4: instinct and desire that we spoke about in a quest

745
00:39:35,516 --> 00:39:41,036
Speaker 4: for justice where people expect something to happen, and when somebody,

746
00:39:41,556 --> 00:39:47,076
Speaker 4: anybody is doing the wrong thing and getting away with it.

747
00:39:48,076 --> 00:39:52,276
Speaker 4: I think anybody who comes across that sort of situation,

748
00:39:53,716 --> 00:39:57,516
Speaker 4: the human instinct is to try to stop it and

749
00:39:57,676 --> 00:40:02,116
Speaker 4: see some level of justice done. So I don't necessarily

750
00:40:02,156 --> 00:40:06,396
Speaker 4: think people are roping me in as a previous victim,

751
00:40:06,436 --> 00:40:09,636
Speaker 4: if you like, I think they're clutching its straws for

752
00:40:09,716 --> 00:40:14,636
Speaker 4: any sort of justice and fairness. And in those cases

753
00:40:14,676 --> 00:40:16,876
Speaker 4: that have reached out to me, I'm the closest they've

754
00:40:16,876 --> 00:40:19,436
Speaker 4: got because the police are unlikely to do anything. The

755
00:40:21,076 --> 00:40:25,516
Speaker 4: kind of crimes or love fraud is very hard to

756
00:40:26,996 --> 00:40:31,596
Speaker 4: deal with in the true justice system sense. So I'm

757
00:40:31,596 --> 00:40:33,476
Speaker 4: the best they've got, and that's why they're reaching out

758
00:40:33,516 --> 00:40:33,676
Speaker 4: to me.

759
00:40:35,396 --> 00:40:37,236
Speaker 2: So how does this story end?

760
00:40:38,716 --> 00:40:43,916
Speaker 4: I mean, I doctor Phil, Maybe I eventually think that,

761
00:40:46,556 --> 00:40:51,836
Speaker 4: you know, I wonder if we will meet again. I

762
00:40:51,876 --> 00:40:55,156
Speaker 4: do think she's a fascinating person, like this is a

763
00:40:55,156 --> 00:41:01,316
Speaker 4: fascinating story, and reviewing some of the material before we spoke,

764
00:41:01,796 --> 00:41:05,196
Speaker 4: I would love to still get answers for some of

765
00:41:05,236 --> 00:41:12,356
Speaker 4: those questions. But in self, preservation. I kind of have

766
00:41:12,436 --> 00:41:16,236
Speaker 4: to say the story has ended. What you heard is

767
00:41:16,916 --> 00:41:18,116
Speaker 4: it can only be the end?

768
00:41:18,236 --> 00:41:18,396
Speaker 3: Right?

769
00:41:18,556 --> 00:41:22,236
Speaker 4: Is that my family picked up the pieces and came

770
00:41:22,276 --> 00:41:26,196
Speaker 4: closer together and moved on, and we all look back

771
00:41:26,236 --> 00:41:33,316
Speaker 4: on it as just this strange, funny, insightful moment in

772
00:41:33,356 --> 00:41:33,956
Speaker 4: our lives.

773
00:41:34,236 --> 00:41:35,076
Speaker 3: And we all have these.

774
00:41:35,116 --> 00:41:37,756
Speaker 4: We all have some incident in our life that becomes

775
00:41:37,796 --> 00:41:41,116
Speaker 4: your greatest hit moment that you think about and talk

776
00:41:41,116 --> 00:41:44,556
Speaker 4: about it late at night or over a couple of beers, And.

777
00:41:45,836 --> 00:41:47,116
Speaker 3: Isn't that the end?

778
00:41:47,876 --> 00:41:54,916
Speaker 1: Yeah? The last question I was going to ask was that,

779
00:41:54,996 --> 00:41:57,676
Speaker 1: I mean, you had so many questions that you wanted

780
00:41:57,716 --> 00:42:03,476
Speaker 1: to pose to Leslie, which is understandable, right, But I'm

781
00:42:03,516 --> 00:42:07,596
Speaker 1: wondering if you think that she's actually capable of giving

782
00:42:07,596 --> 00:42:12,156
Speaker 1: you any answers would truly satisfy you, right, because the

783
00:42:12,196 --> 00:42:16,276
Speaker 1: presumption in order for an answer to satisfy you, you

784
00:42:16,356 --> 00:42:19,316
Speaker 1: have to believe that it's credible.

785
00:42:19,396 --> 00:42:23,436
Speaker 3: I was surprised that she was as.

786
00:42:24,556 --> 00:42:28,316
Speaker 4: Off the cuff in the car park when she described

787
00:42:28,356 --> 00:42:31,996
Speaker 4: the ways she got the finances as not totally kosher,

788
00:42:32,156 --> 00:42:37,356
Speaker 4: quote unquote. I was surprised at her willingness to go there,

789
00:42:37,676 --> 00:42:41,116
Speaker 4: and I think her instincts are to the same as

790
00:42:41,156 --> 00:42:42,996
Speaker 4: mine is, to meet in the middle a little bit

791
00:42:43,156 --> 00:42:48,836
Speaker 4: and to give some information, probably holding quite a lot back.

792
00:42:49,476 --> 00:42:53,156
Speaker 4: I think, if the circumstances were right, and like Maria

793
00:42:53,196 --> 00:42:56,676
Speaker 4: Konnikova described, if it was kind of begging her up.

794
00:42:56,996 --> 00:43:00,236
Speaker 4: And actually there's this case of this a famous corn artist,

795
00:43:00,596 --> 00:43:04,476
Speaker 4: a Canadian dude who went on a kind of like

796
00:43:04,556 --> 00:43:06,916
Speaker 4: a talk show, a doctor phild type show, if you will,

797
00:43:07,316 --> 00:43:13,876
Speaker 4: and he very proudly described what he had done, and

798
00:43:14,156 --> 00:43:16,276
Speaker 4: it was crazy. He pretended to be a doctor and

799
00:43:16,316 --> 00:43:20,076
Speaker 4: went on a Canadian medical ship during the war and

800
00:43:20,196 --> 00:43:22,116
Speaker 4: was I think even operating on people who was wild

801
00:43:23,516 --> 00:43:24,836
Speaker 4: or that guy from Catch Me if you can. I

802
00:43:24,836 --> 00:43:27,236
Speaker 4: saw a video of him the other day proudly describing

803
00:43:28,036 --> 00:43:32,116
Speaker 4: how he scammed PanAm airlines. And I think, if it

804
00:43:32,156 --> 00:43:37,796
Speaker 4: was the right circumstances, if it was Leslie under bright lights,

805
00:43:38,436 --> 00:43:41,396
Speaker 4: and one day, if we could kind of reconcile and

806
00:43:41,436 --> 00:43:46,476
Speaker 4: tell this story together, maybe she would own up to

807
00:43:46,516 --> 00:43:48,556
Speaker 4: some of it, and maybe some of the stuff is

808
00:43:49,836 --> 00:43:52,356
Speaker 4: able to be proven, or we got it wrong, or

809
00:43:52,876 --> 00:43:55,156
Speaker 4: you know, she has a different side of the story,

810
00:43:55,196 --> 00:43:57,476
Speaker 4: and I think we should all be open to that.

811
00:43:57,476 --> 00:44:00,436
Speaker 1: That's it Lastlie, if you're listening, there's room for one

812
00:44:00,436 --> 00:44:01,676
Speaker 1: more bonus episode.

813
00:44:02,116 --> 00:44:04,996
Speaker 4: That would be fascinating. I wouldn't put it out of

814
00:44:05,036 --> 00:44:06,076
Speaker 4: the realms of possibility.

815
00:44:07,556 --> 00:44:09,076
Speaker 2: Thanks, Sally, really appreciate it.

816
00:44:09,156 --> 00:44:10,396
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me.

817
00:44:14,476 --> 00:44:18,756
Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Isaac Carter. Our executive producer

818
00:44:18,956 --> 00:44:23,876
Speaker 1: is Jacob Smith, mastering by Sarah Bruguer. Original scoring and

819
00:44:23,956 --> 00:44:27,916
Speaker 1: our theme were composed by Luis Gara. Special thanks to

820
00:44:27,996 --> 00:44:33,116
Speaker 1: Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller, and Greta Cone. I'm Jake Halpern