1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Rip Current is a production of iHeart Podcasts. The views 2 00:00:05,040 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: and opinions expressed do not necessarily reflect those of the host, 3 00:00:08,640 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: producers or parent company. Listener discretion is it fine? 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,919 Speaker 2: Four in the morning. On May seventeenth, nineteen seventy four, 5 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 2: three and a half months after Patty Hurst's kidnapping, Donald 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 2: de Fries, better known as sin QW, the leader of 7 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 2: the Simbionese Liberation Army, knocked on the door of fourteen 8 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 2: sixty six East fifty fourth Street in Los Angeles. He 9 00:00:37,440 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 2: probably picked us home because there were lights on in 10 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:45,199 Speaker 2: the windows. Inside, four adults listened to the radio, played cards, 11 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: and drank wine. Two children were asleep in their bedrooms. 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 2: Minnie Lewis, who lived in the house, answered the door. 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 2: Sinq said that he and some friends needed a place 14 00:00:56,520 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: to lay low for a few hours. Mini was sure, 15 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: but Sinq offered her one hundred dollars and she agreed. 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 2: Sinq asked the man playing cards if he could help 17 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 2: them empty their vans. They brought in boxes of documents, 18 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 2: sleeping bags, suitcases, and a foot locker. They also brought 19 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 2: in weapons, a lot of weapons, nineteen shotguns, rifles and pistols, 20 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 2: and over four thousand rounds of ammunition. When the vans 21 00:01:27,200 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 2: were empty, they stashed them a block and a half away. 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 2: Later in the day, the Los Angeles police spotted the 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,400 Speaker 2: two SLA vans where they'd been hidden behind a burned 24 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 2: out apartment building at fourteen fifty one East fifty third Street. 25 00:01:42,720 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 2: It was a spot they stopped by frequently where criminals 26 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: would drop stolen and stripped cars. The stash vans indicated 27 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 2: to the police that the SLA was almost certainly in 28 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 2: the area. They checked several addresses before receiving information that 29 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 2: Sinq and his companion were at the house at fourteen 30 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:07,400 Speaker 2: sixty six East fifty fourth. According to neighbors, people had 31 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 2: been coming and going from that address all day. At 32 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 2: five point forty that evening, the police surrounded the house. 33 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,040 Speaker 2: At five point forty four, an officer using a bullhorn 34 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 2: called for the people inside the house to surrender. An 35 00:02:23,280 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: eight year old named Tony emerged crying. Minutes later, a 36 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 2: man named Clarence Ross came out. In all, the police 37 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 2: made eighteen surrender announcements. At five point fifty three, the 38 00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:37,760 Speaker 2: shooting began. 39 00:02:39,040 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 3: The Los Angeles Police used a record amount of ammunition 40 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 3: in that shootout. 41 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,279 Speaker 2: Today, the air shook. 42 00:02:44,000 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 3: With gunfire and police realized what they were up against. 43 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 3: Gunfire was so massive it was absolutely impossible to tell 44 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 3: if you were safe or not. Then police went to 45 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 3: tear gas bombs. 46 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: Fire was squires coming from the house. 47 00:02:56,080 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 4: I to have spread to the adjacent how it does go. 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 3: On, and it's possible at this point find that the 49 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 3: flames themselves were setting off the tremendous amounts of ammunition 50 00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 3: that the SLA had stockpiled inside the house. 51 00:03:07,000 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 5: Several companies of the Los Angeles Fire Department were poised, 52 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 5: but police would not allow them near the blaze because 53 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 5: in spite of the inferno firing from the house continue. 54 00:03:16,320 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 5: Is the body of Patty Hurst among the five found 55 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:21,560 Speaker 5: early tonight in a shot up, burned out home on 56 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 5: fifty fourth in Compton Avenues. The experience of watching the 57 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:29,040 Speaker 5: holocaust and progress was more shocking, more terrifying than anything 58 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 5: I have ever experienced. A family spokesman said tonight that 59 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 5: the feeling inside the Hearst Hold is that it's all 60 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 5: over for Patty. 61 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 6: I'm to be bald and I'm Mary Catherine Garrison, and 62 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 6: this is rip current. 63 00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:52,400 Speaker 7: That could betray the network. The underground network. But again 64 00:03:52,480 --> 00:04:11,480 Speaker 7: I told him to, I told him take take Eye. 65 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:07,800 Speaker 6: Episode nine contradictions. 66 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: All six of the SLA members at fourteen sixty six 67 00:04:16,600 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 2: East fifty fourth were killed in the shootout and the 68 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: fire that followed. This included since mis Moon, Soltizik, Camilla Hall, 69 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 2: Angela Atwood, Willie Wolf, and Nancy Ling Perry, but not 70 00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,560 Speaker 2: Patty Hurst. Author Jeffrey Tubin. 71 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 8: As it happened, Patty Hurst and the married couple that 72 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 8: was sort of minding her, Bill and Emily Harris, were 73 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 8: not in the house, although that was not known for 74 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 8: some time, and the three of them then went on 75 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 8: the lamb. But at that point the Cydndiinese Liberation Army 76 00:04:56,320 --> 00:05:00,719 Speaker 8: really just amounted to those three people. That's all that 77 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:01,360 Speaker 8: was left. 78 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,800 Speaker 2: They were forced to retreat even further underground, eventually making 79 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: their way across the country to a farm in Pennsylvania. 80 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 2: They went dormant, but their influence was still felt. Two 81 00:05:14,920 --> 00:05:18,039 Speaker 2: weeks after the shootout in Los Angeles, a memorial was 82 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 2: held for Angela Atwood, one of the SLA members killed. 83 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 2: The setting was Willard Park in Berkeley, also known as 84 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 2: Ho Chi Min Park after the North Vietnamese leader among 85 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 2: the speakers at the rally was Popeye Jackson, one of 86 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 2: the few members of the left willing to publicly align 87 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 2: themselves with the SLA at this point. 88 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 9: And not only did they see too that this food 89 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,240 Speaker 9: was distributed, but I think a more important part that 90 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 9: they did for everyone is proved that while we were 91 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,039 Speaker 9: always too many of us that are in community groups 92 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 9: that have day in and day out conversations with the 93 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 9: establishment or the reuning class or whatever. You know, your 94 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 9: particular political persuasion makes you call those, but not only 95 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:02,960 Speaker 9: do when we have our day in and day out 96 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 9: of contact with them, we're always told the question of time, 97 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 9: that you're right, we realize that people need. 98 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 2: These things, but it takes time. 99 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 4: But what a program is in the interest of the 100 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 4: people of that class, it only takes a matter of days. 101 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 4: It only takes a matter of days to move to 102 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:21,800 Speaker 4: get things organized and moved, to put cert goods in 103 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 4: the hands of the people. But it's not until they 104 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 4: feel pressured for whatever reason, is that thing done. What 105 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:31,559 Speaker 4: we want to stress is that, contrary to what said 106 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,920 Speaker 4: in the press, is that what happened with the SLA 107 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 4: is not an end, but we hope it's beginning. 108 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 9: A future, frankly a beginning in terms of the fact 109 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,960 Speaker 9: that we hope certain things will be illustrated to people 110 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 9: in this country. 111 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: Popeye went on to say that he was quote tired 112 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: of armchair revolutionaries who theorize but don't act. At an 113 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 2: event commemorating the death of a member of a wildly 114 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,960 Speaker 2: violent group, this was a provocative statement of intent. Popeye 115 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 2: was signaling what he felt was the need for violent action. 116 00:07:10,280 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 2: Why did Popeye say this? The SOLA had previously been 117 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: regarded with caution. Now people on the left were trying 118 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:23,360 Speaker 2: to distance themselves from what seemed like unnecessary, unrevolutionary violence. 119 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 2: Was his support a tactic to maintain his viability as 120 00:07:27,360 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 2: a contact between what remained of the SLA and Randolph 121 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: Hurst or did he sincerely believe in the need for 122 00:07:35,040 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: SLA style violence regardless. During this time, he was also 123 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 2: acting as Sarah Jane's patron among the radical left. Jerry Spieler, 124 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 2: author of Sarah Jane Moore's biography. 125 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 10: They wanted her to go to these various rallies and 126 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 10: meetings of these radical organizations and try to get the 127 00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 10: names of people who are there and find out what 128 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 10: they're plans. Are and then get that back to the FBI. 129 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 10: So they wanted her to infiltrate these different groups, and 130 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 10: she got Popeye to quote introduce her or take her 131 00:08:11,080 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 10: to these things and say, this is Sarah Jane, and 132 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:17,960 Speaker 10: she wants to help out. She's taking notes and getting 133 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 10: information back to the FBI. This was very cool on 134 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 10: her part. She was, you know, a spy basically, Sarah 135 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 10: Jane felt very important about that, working with the FBI 136 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 10: and being able to give them information. 137 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 6: The SLA shootout in Los Angeles happened in May. Two 138 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 6: months later. July nineteen seventy four marked a turning point 139 00:08:41,040 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 6: for Sarah Jane and her informant work with the FBI and, 140 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 6: to a lesser extent, her work with Randolph Hurst in 141 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 6: the San Francisco Police Department. That month, she took two 142 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 6: big steps. The first was to distance herself from Popeye Jackson. 143 00:08:56,440 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 6: Until this time, she'd been closely associated with him. In 144 00:08:59,200 --> 00:09:02,680 Speaker 6: San Francisco. She'd volunteered to answer phones at the United 145 00:09:02,679 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 6: Prisoners Union, the organization that Popeye led. Popeye's wife, Pat Singer, 146 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 6: said that Sarah Jane quote followed him around like a 147 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 6: puppy dog. But something caused her to decide to make 148 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 6: the split. Maybe it was that she felt used by Popeye. 149 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 6: He had borrowed money from her, which he had not repaid. 150 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 6: He'd also borrowed her car at one point and returned 151 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 6: it with some damage that went unrepaired. The clash of 152 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 6: two strong personalities was probably also a factor. For all 153 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:35,720 Speaker 6: his talk of representing the people, Popeye was a chauvinist 154 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 6: photographer and friend of Popeye Jackson Jacob Holt. 155 00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 11: Popeye was a terrible sexist, so I don't know how 156 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 11: he was able to get so many female white supporters. 157 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:52,440 Speaker 5: As he did. 158 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:57,839 Speaker 6: Later, explaining the split, Sarah Jane told the Berkeley Barb 159 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,400 Speaker 6: he treated people like shit. He wanted money in middle 160 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 6: class life. He did not give people the same respect 161 00:10:04,360 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 6: he expected from them. The second and more consequential decision 162 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 6: was to disclose to a prominent member of the underground 163 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 6: Left that she was an FBI informant. From the beginning 164 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 6: of her work with the FBI, they had told her 165 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 6: that their top target was this man, whom Sarah Jane 166 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 6: referred to as Tom. She has never revealed Tom's identity. 167 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 6: In a retrospective nineteen seventy six, interview with journalist Andrew 168 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,320 Speaker 6: Hill for Playboy magazine, she talked about her growing sympathy 169 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 6: with the people that the FBI was asking her to 170 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 6: report on. I began to see that the leftist people 171 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:41,880 Speaker 6: I was working with were not enemies of this country. 172 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 6: They were dedicated people working for qualitative change. They were 173 00:10:46,440 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 6: not evil. Yes, they recognized revolution. They were dedicated to 174 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,480 Speaker 6: the armed overthrow of the government because they did not 175 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 6: think there was any other way to do it. I 176 00:10:56,360 --> 00:10:58,760 Speaker 6: became aware of how dangerous what I was doing was 177 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 6: in terms of those people. I was looking at people 178 00:11:01,480 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 6: getting arrested on the basis of information like that which 179 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 6: I was telling the FBI. I was looking at people 180 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,800 Speaker 6: getting killed. I couldn't do what I was doing any more. 181 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 6: The reality was that Tom was radicalizing her, bringing her 182 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 6: in to the Maoist ideology that underpinned so many groups 183 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,679 Speaker 6: in the Bay Area. Maoism in the US took the 184 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 6: form of a number of Marxist groups that roughly aligned 185 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 6: themselves with Chinese style communism or selectively picked from that ideology. 186 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,800 Speaker 6: Its philosophy held some special attraction at the time. It 187 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 6: drew a parallel between what radicals called the Imperial war 188 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 6: in Vietnam and racial oppression in the US. It connected 189 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 6: domestic civil rights efforts with decolonization movements around the world, 190 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 6: seeing it as an international struggle, and there was an 191 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 6: expectation that a mass worker's revolt would take place and 192 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:55,280 Speaker 6: that the current MAOIs would serve as the leadership, and 193 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,319 Speaker 6: because of this needed to be educated in the correct 194 00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:03,480 Speaker 6: political philosophy. Maoism was often about studying an education or 195 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 6: re education. This is how Patty Hurst became a gorilla 196 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 6: and Sarah Jane Moore became a radical. As she tells 197 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 6: the story of her disclosure, she informed Tom that she was, 198 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 6: in her words, a pig, someone who worked with the cops. 199 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 6: Tom didn't believe it. She understood his doubts. She didn't 200 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,120 Speaker 6: fit the profile of an agent, but Tom asked her 201 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 6: a series of questions and satisfied himself that she was 202 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 6: telling the truth. Tom told her that the FBI would 203 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 6: never allow her to genuinely work with a radical left. 204 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 6: He said he needed to talk with his group to 205 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 6: make a decision about what to do with this information. 206 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 6: The decision of Tom's group was that I was a 207 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 6: security risk to them and therefore they had to break 208 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 6: off all contact with me. However, they believed in my 209 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 6: sincerity and therefore they were making what to them was 210 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 6: a dangerous decision. They would not tell anyone else I 211 00:12:56,320 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 6: was a pig. In September, she told her FBI handler 212 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,439 Speaker 6: about her confession to Tom. They initially dropped her as informant, 213 00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 6: but picked her up again a month later when they 214 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 6: realized that she had maintained her relationship in the LEFT. 215 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 6: She had less information to offer after her July disclosure 216 00:13:13,280 --> 00:13:17,160 Speaker 6: to Tom. Sarah Jane also realized that her disclosure to 217 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 6: Tom might have put her in danger. She talked about 218 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 6: this fear in the Playboy interview. I began to wonder 219 00:13:24,280 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 6: if Tom's group might be setting me up. What he 220 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 6: had done was contrary to all I had learned about 221 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 6: the way PIG agents were treated when they were discovered. 222 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,079 Speaker 6: And you have to remember that violence and death were 223 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 6: very real in the Bay Area. Then, Marcus Foster had 224 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:40,480 Speaker 6: been killed, Patti Hurst kidnapped, The People in Need program 225 00:13:40,559 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 6: operated in a sea of threats and violence. Then there 226 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 6: was the SLA's fiery shootout in LA. Three months after 227 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 6: being reinstated, technically, at least to the FBI payroll, she 228 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 6: made another rash decision. In the same interview with Playboy magazine, 229 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 6: Sarah Jane said that in January nineteen seventy five, she 230 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 6: told a left wing lawyer named Charles Garry about her 231 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 6: work for the FBI. He convinced her that her activities 232 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,959 Speaker 6: had done more harm than she realized, and that she 233 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 6: had a duty to the people she reported on to 234 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,640 Speaker 6: come clean, especially if she wanted to continue to work 235 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 6: with organizations on the left. On this advice, she contacted 236 00:14:19,680 --> 00:14:22,040 Speaker 6: people within the radical scene and told them about her 237 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 6: informant work. In a Berkeley barb article, she claimed that 238 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 6: she told around twenty five people, and Playboy Sarah Jane 239 00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 6: claimed she had contacted the heads of three groups as 240 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 6: she had infiltrated. Of the three she contacted, one small 241 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 6: violent organization called Tribal Thumb would become a major part 242 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 6: of her story to these groups. Sarah Jane both confessed 243 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 6: to her work for the FBI up until July of 244 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,120 Speaker 6: nineteen seventy four, and provided what she felt was damning 245 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 6: information about Popeye Jackson. Specifically, she disclosed his agreement with 246 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 6: Randolph Hurst Hearst's intervention in his parole revocation case. In 247 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 6: what she he claimed was Popeye's use of United Prisoner 248 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 6: Union funds for his own purposes. Sarah Jane claimed that 249 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,800 Speaker 6: two of the groups handled this news at the leadership level, 250 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 6: but that the third spread her admission throughout the Bay 251 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 6: Area Left. That third group was most likely the Vietnam 252 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:21,119 Speaker 6: Veterans against the War. While she had made this disclosure 253 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 6: with the aim of continuing her relationships within the leftist organizations, 254 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 6: their negative reaction angered her and recommitted her to her 255 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 6: work for the FBI. Paradoxically, the disclosure of her identity 256 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 6: as an FBI informant to the left at large actually 257 00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 6: helped Sarah Jane's information collecting. She told Playboy, the faster 258 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 6: word about me spread through the movement, the more new 259 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 6: people came to me to ask me questions, and the 260 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 6: more information I was able to give about them to 261 00:15:50,120 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 6: the FBI. The interviewer followed up, asking if informing on 262 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 6: her friends bothered her. She replied, sure it did, and 263 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 6: I don't know how how I handled it, and then 264 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 6: rambled about how stupid those people were to talk to. 265 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 2: Her as an informant. Sarah Jane was part of a 266 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 2: concerted FBI effort to infiltrate and disrupt political extremist groups 267 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: on both the left and the right, but mostly on 268 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 2: the left. This initiative began in nineteen fifty six as 269 00:16:26,520 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: the infamous co intel Pro program that was technically shuttered 270 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy one, but continued on in practice through 271 00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 2: the mid seventies. 272 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 12: Co intel Pro is a bad acronym for counterintelligence program. 273 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 12: When we talk about counterintelligence, the idea is this goes 274 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 12: beyond the more passive monitoring or surveillance of particular groups 275 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 12: in order to uncover what they might do, and it 276 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 12: moves to the more active disruption of these groups, like 277 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:59,800 Speaker 12: seeking to proactively defuse these groups' ability to organize, ability 278 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:04,240 Speaker 12: to act. I'm David Cunningham. I am a professor of 279 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 12: sociology at Washington University in Saint Louis. Co intel Pro 280 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 12: was predominantly targeting left wing groups, and so almost all 281 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 12: of the co intel Pro programs focused on left wing 282 00:17:18,640 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 12: quote unquote threats, ranging from the communist part of USA 283 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,800 Speaker 12: to the Socialist Workers Party, to the New Left and 284 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 12: anti war movement, to civil rights and black power organizations 285 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 12: that the FBI deemed black nationalists and hate groups. 286 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 2: And it was the very existence of these left wing groups, 287 00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 2: rather than their actual capacity to undertake meaningful action that 288 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:44,840 Speaker 2: caught the eye of the FBI. Say what you will 289 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,480 Speaker 2: about the rhetoric of some of these groups, they were 290 00:17:47,560 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 2: tiny and their goal of fomenting a national revolution was 291 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 2: comically unattainable. 292 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 12: Because when the FBI targeted the whole spectrum of groups 293 00:17:58,080 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 12: on the left wing, their aim almost across the board, 294 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 12: unilatterally was to eliminate these groups. They really wanted these 295 00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 12: groups to be gone, and so even when these groups 296 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 12: seemed weak and ineffectual, the FBI would kind of relentlessly 297 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 12: go after undermining them and continuing to undermine them because 298 00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 12: FBI Director Jagrew Hoover always saw them as having the 299 00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 12: potential in the right climate, of having a revolutionary potential, 300 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 12: of being able to lead or further a revolutionary threat. 301 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,560 Speaker 2: The goal of the FBI when they went after right 302 00:18:34,560 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 2: wing groups was significantly different. 303 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 12: When the FBI targeted the right wing groups. So the 304 00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:45,959 Speaker 12: ku Kluxplan in particular, the issue was not whether they 305 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,439 Speaker 12: existed or not. It turned out the FBI didn't have 306 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,679 Speaker 12: any problem with the KKK being active and being organized. 307 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 12: What they really wanted to do was control those groups. 308 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:00,640 Speaker 12: So the aim of cointelpro against the Klan to be 309 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 12: more towards placing informants in these groups, which they were 310 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 12: very good at, and trying to get these informants placed 311 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 12: highly within the KKK so they could in effect run 312 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 12: the clan in a way that the FBI could see 313 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 12: as predictable and could see as controlling unpredictable violence against 314 00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,040 Speaker 12: civil rights workers and others. 315 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 2: Over time, changes in the size and tactics of the 316 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 2: revolutionary groups provided the FBI with new challenges. 317 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 12: As we move into the later nineteen sixties and into 318 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 12: the nineteen seventies, when a lot of these targets were 319 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 12: maybe seen as more explicitly revolutionary or radical in their 320 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 12: orientation and oftentimes took an underground approach to organizing, so 321 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,199 Speaker 12: it was less about building, you know, mass events with 322 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 12: marches and things like that, and more about cell based 323 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 12: action or something that would look more insular and underground. 324 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 12: The FBI was less and less effective trying to burrow 325 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 12: into those groups with informants, which does not mean that 326 00:20:04,640 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 12: they stopped trying, and if anything, they tried harder in 327 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 12: that environment, but with much more mixed success in terms 328 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 12: of their ability to do this effectively. 329 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:18,639 Speaker 2: You can see this in Sarah Jane's recruitment. She was 330 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 2: an outsider to the movement and someone who didn't really 331 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 2: fit in with the radical scenery. Not only was she 332 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: outside the normal demographic of black ex convicts and young 333 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 2: white radicals, but her personality guaranteed that she would stand 334 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 2: out as well. Recruiting members from small, intense groups, though, 335 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 2: was difficult. This is Rick Riley, who will hear more 336 00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 2: from next episode. He was a member of Tribal Thumb, 337 00:20:46,160 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 2: one of the groups Sarah Jane confessed to. Here, he 338 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 2: talks about a recruitment approach by the FBI to become 339 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 2: an informant. He had been sentenced to a one hundred 340 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,400 Speaker 2: and twenty day prison stint and the FBI let him 341 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,640 Speaker 2: sit a month before an agent came to talk with him. 342 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 7: Their plan was to send me to prison for a 343 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 7: little bit to scare me, you know, scare straight. They 344 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 7: came to visit me while I was in prison. After 345 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 7: I had been there like thirty something days, they came 346 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 7: to see me and again made the offer to me, 347 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 7: And this time they wanted me to escape and use 348 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 7: utilize travel thumbs escape resources. And then betray that, you know, 349 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 7: because like travel Thumb was involved in jail breaks and 350 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 7: prison breaks and stuff like that. So they wanted me 351 00:21:33,680 --> 00:21:37,679 Speaker 7: to go to a camp facility and get them to 352 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 7: help me to escape, and that way I could betray 353 00:21:40,359 --> 00:21:43,960 Speaker 7: the network, the underground network. I told him to take 354 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 7: a y. 355 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 12: I think that sort of tactic is really central to 356 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 12: what the FBI would try to do. I mean, they 357 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 12: knew that the placing of informants had a direct value 358 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:57,920 Speaker 12: to them in the sense that these informants could act 359 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 12: directly and provide information directly. But they also knew that 360 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 12: the global effort to place informants had an indirect effect, 361 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:09,320 Speaker 12: which is that it created a climate that really sowed 362 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,640 Speaker 12: suspicion and potential dissent around the presence of informants generally. 363 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 12: And part of that indirect effect was trying to use 364 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 12: informants and others to accuse non informants of informing. And 365 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:28,200 Speaker 12: sometimes they would do things that would signal to others 366 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 12: that someone was being treated like an informant by law enforcement, 367 00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 12: so providing a light sentence releasing them from jail when 368 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:41,560 Speaker 12: their co conspirators remained in jail. Things like this oftentimes 369 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,000 Speaker 12: they would try to do for folks who were not informants, 370 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 12: precisely because that would be a signal to other members 371 00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 12: that they must be an informant, and that's why they 372 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 12: were treated in that way. And so the FBI clearly 373 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 12: knew that this could be effective in an indirect way, 374 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,400 Speaker 12: and that they could exploit the climate that they themselves 375 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:02,160 Speaker 12: had created. 376 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,760 Speaker 2: Even unsuccessful attempts to recruit served to increase the fear 377 00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 2: in the radical community that there are informants in their 378 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:15,400 Speaker 2: midst a paranoia that would play out in the coming months. 379 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 2: For Popeye and. 380 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:30,000 Speaker 13: Sarah Jane after the break. 381 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 14: Oh well, yeah, we definitely had privileges. I would call 382 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 14: it middle class upbringing, but maybe, you know, maybe a 383 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 14: little more so economically. We lived in a really nice 384 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:51,000 Speaker 14: home neighborhood in Menlo Park. I'm Lee Darby, author of 385 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 14: Stars in Our Eyes. 386 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 6: Stars in Our Eyes is a memoir that focuses in 387 00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 6: large part on Lee's sister, Sally Void. 388 00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 14: When I was a freshman in high school, you know, 389 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 14: just right on the cusp of adulthood, we moved over 390 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,359 Speaker 14: to the town of Alamo, which is near Walnut Creek 391 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 14: because my dad got a new job. We just had 392 00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 14: a kind of a privileged life and intact family and 393 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 14: friends would come over and hang out and it was 394 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 14: just we really had a good time. There wasn't any 395 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:35,760 Speaker 14: real angst other than the usual teenage stuff. She had 396 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 14: a real sense of justice. She would confront and tell 397 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:47,160 Speaker 14: people off, and she was very popular. She didn't let 398 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:52,679 Speaker 14: transgressions happen. You know, if somebody said something rude or 399 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 14: not nice, she would call them on it. She was 400 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 14: just that way, just really opinionated, you know, she wanted 401 00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,320 Speaker 14: to be right. Everything kind of changed. We went to 402 00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:08,720 Speaker 14: different colleges. You know, we've been joined at the hip 403 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 14: since early age, being only one year apart in school. 404 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,879 Speaker 14: I went to University Pacific and she went to U 405 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:21,320 Speaker 14: see Santa Barbara. So both of us joined sororities, and 406 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 14: we just loved campus life and she was active in 407 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 14: it and she ended up being the president of her 408 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 14: sorority her senior year. She then went and did her 409 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 14: fifth years what they call it, to become a teacher, 410 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:45,119 Speaker 14: and she went to Berkeley and everything changed there. She 411 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 14: saw people that were underprivileged and she wanted to do 412 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 14: something to help, and she became interested in plight of 413 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 14: black people, especially, And after she got her teaching credential, 414 00:26:01,960 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 14: she started teaching in Vallejo, and there's a large black 415 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 14: population over there, and a friend told her about this 416 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:16,120 Speaker 14: literacy program at San Quentin, and so she became active 417 00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 14: in this teaching prisoners to read, and so she was 418 00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 14: volunteering over there, and that's how she met Popeye Jackson, 419 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 14: because he was an ex con and he was involved 420 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 14: in several different programs over there at the prison. Just 421 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 14: completely unclear about what she thought she was doing with 422 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 14: these people. I think she talked to my brother a 423 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 14: little bit about it, but I don't think he even 424 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,480 Speaker 14: recognized the name Popeye Jackson either. But somehow we knew 425 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 14: that she was involved with a group of ex convicts, 426 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,480 Speaker 14: and we all felt like she was out of her element. 427 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:03,320 Speaker 14: We saw the danger, she just saw the potential to help. 428 00:27:05,840 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 6: In March of nineteen seventy five, Sarah Jane moved into 429 00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 6: an apartment that had previously been home to her friends 430 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,320 Speaker 6: Joyce and Paul Halverson. The Hoversons had also been friends 431 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 6: with Camilla Hall, a member of the SLA who was 432 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,679 Speaker 6: killed in the LA shootout. Paul had earlier spent two 433 00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:24,199 Speaker 6: weeks in jail for refusing to testify in front of 434 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 6: a grand jury investigating Camilla Hall. The apartment that Sarah 435 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,560 Speaker 6: Jane moved into was just two blocks from Popeye's apartment building, 436 00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:35,400 Speaker 6: and as had so often been the case in her life, 437 00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 6: she made an impression on her neighbors. The New York 438 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 6: Times interviewed a woman named Evelyn Jebaut, who was described 439 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,240 Speaker 6: as the local Avon lady. She said that she never 440 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:50,159 Speaker 6: called on Sarah Jane, explaining, she seems so strange. She 441 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,679 Speaker 6: was so quiet and unfriendly, and this is such a 442 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 6: friendly neighborhood. Of course she don't go out much after dark, 443 00:27:55,720 --> 00:28:00,000 Speaker 6: but it's a friendly neighborhood. Also in March, Popeye had 444 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:04,560 Speaker 6: a close call photographer Jacob Holt. Talking about Popeye. 445 00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,680 Speaker 11: He himself certainly made me paranoid that this that personal 446 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 11: towards out for and I think, as far as I remember, 447 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 11: he was the one who, Yeah, he warned me about 448 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 11: FBI spices in his union and so on, but he 449 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 11: ignored it all. He didn't he didn't care that had 450 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 11: already been an assassination at himt on him and Pat 451 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 11: Singer before that excellent sal Sally voice card which was 452 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 11: full of bullet holes, and so was such a nice 453 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 11: suburban teacher. I couldn't believe that had the guts to 454 00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:48,720 Speaker 11: go into all this, even after that assassination nets him. 455 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 6: Popeye, his wife Pat Singer, who was six months pregnant 456 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 6: at the time, and two others were driving through the 457 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 6: Mission District in March of nineteen seventy five. One of 458 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 6: those other two people was likely Sally Voy, though this 459 00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:05,280 Speaker 6: was never reported. As they drove, at least one shot 460 00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 6: was fired at the car. Reports vary about the number 461 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 6: of shots, with some people saying the car had several 462 00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 6: bullet holes. Lee Darby again talking about her sister Sally Voy. 463 00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 14: Somebody took some shots. I'm not sure why Popeye Jackson 464 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 14: didn't have a car, but somehow she was taking him, 465 00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:31,400 Speaker 14: you know. I guess all this happened on weekends because 466 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 14: you know, she taught school, but she was taking him somewhere, 467 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 14: and there was other people in the car too, I think, 468 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 14: And so somehow we've I think she told my brother 469 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 14: about that, So somehow we found out about that, and 470 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 14: so we were further concerned about her safety. But she 471 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,240 Speaker 14: just waved it off and just thought she was John 472 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 14: Wayne dodging apache arrows, and it was all kind of fake, 473 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 14: and she just never thought that bullets would catch up 474 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 14: to her and the bullet the bullet holes got repaired somehow, 475 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 14: and nobody got killed. But it was definitely a severe 476 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 14: warning that none of them heeded. 477 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 6: Three months later, on June fourth, nineteen seventy five, a 478 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 6: mysterious group called the New World Liberation Front sent an 479 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 6: open letter to KPOO, a community radio station in San Francisco. 480 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 6: The letter, which KPOO read over the air, laid out 481 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 6: accusations against Popeye Jackson. It claimed that Popeye displayed what 482 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 6: it called four contradictions against the revolutionary cause. The first 483 00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 6: was that he received privileged treatment by the courts and 484 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 6: prison system. This was related largely to a shoplifting offense 485 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 6: for which Popeye had received sixty days in jail. The 486 00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 6: writers felt that sentence was too short. The second contradiction 487 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:05,000 Speaker 6: was that Popeye projected a capitalist image. This probably concerned 488 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 6: his habit of wearing fancy clothes, though his defender said 489 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 6: these were generally homemade. He also at this time drove 490 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 6: a Catillac, which was another symbol of this capitalist image. 491 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 6: The third contradiction was urging people to commit premature acts, 492 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,400 Speaker 6: in other words, being a provocateur, remember, for instance, his 493 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:29,040 Speaker 6: advocating violence at Angela Outwood's memorial. The fourth was for 494 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 6: quote subjective criticism verbal trashing, which has to do with 495 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 6: the way in which disputes were aired. In the letter, 496 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 6: the NWLF says, we welcome comradeley criticism of our acts, 497 00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 6: but we reject trashing. It is divisive and neither further's 498 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 6: dialogue or revolutionary theory. The letter concluded, we feel Popeye 499 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 6: got weak and turned undercover pig. It was an accusation 500 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 6: that would have been true about Sarah Jane. It was 501 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 6: less certain about Popeye. The first two of the letters points, 502 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 6: the short sentence and the capitalist image, were certainly part 503 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 6: of the documents that Sarah Jane had supplied the underground 504 00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 6: groups in January. The third may have been as well, 505 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,280 Speaker 6: or was an inference made from the first two points. 506 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 6: In short, at least some of the charges levied by 507 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 6: the New World Liberation Front could be traced back to 508 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 6: Sarah Jane's accusations. Again, this letter was received by radio 509 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:30,800 Speaker 6: station KPOO on June fourth. On the evening of June seventh, 510 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 6: Popeye and Sally Voy attended a benefit party for the 511 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 6: radical group Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Late that night, 512 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:43,000 Speaker 6: as Sally dropped Popeye off at his apartment, they were murdered. 513 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,479 Speaker 15: What happened was Popeye Jackson was sitting in a car 514 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 15: at forty one Albion Street in San Francisco, and young 515 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 15: lady about ten years old was looking out the window 516 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 15: after she heard gunshots us and she saw a tall, thin, 517 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 15: black male shooting a gun into a car. Seated in 518 00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 15: that car was Popeye Jackson. 519 00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:16,479 Speaker 6: This is retired San Francisco Police detective Frank Fausan. He 520 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,440 Speaker 6: worked many of the big homicide cases in San Francisco. 521 00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 15: He was in the driver's seat. Next to him was 522 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 15: a young lady. Turned out, the young lady was a 523 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 15: school teacher elementary school teacher in the Valeo School District, 524 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 15: which is in the East Bay of San Francisco. The 525 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,000 Speaker 15: sad thing about Sally Voy and I never did confirm it. 526 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:43,479 Speaker 15: I felt like she was just collateral damage. She was 527 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,040 Speaker 15: in the wrong place at the wrong time when this 528 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 15: assailant stepped up outside the driver's side window and started shooting. 529 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:57,560 Speaker 15: We eventually found five casings on the ground next to 530 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:01,560 Speaker 15: the driver's door, so it indicated that he was using 531 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 15: an automatic, which turned out to be a nine millimeter automatic. Well, 532 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 15: we come to find out later there was another individual, 533 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 15: another blackmail, standing on the opposite side with a handgun, 534 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 15: a revolver which wasn't ejecting shells, and he fired through 535 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,280 Speaker 15: that window. Both victims ended up with multiple gunshot wounds 536 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,919 Speaker 15: and died right in the position that we found them. 537 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 15: We knew right away it was two forty five am 538 00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 15: Sunday morning when these gunshots rang out. It was a 539 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 15: June eighth, nineteen seventy five. This was definitely assassination. It 540 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 15: was not a robbery. There were two suspects laying in 541 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 15: wait to take down Popeye Jackson. One had the revolver, 542 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 15: the other one had the automatic. Witnesses told us again 543 00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,120 Speaker 15: both suspects were black mail. 544 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 6: Identification of two black men turned out to be wrong, 545 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:07,839 Speaker 6: but at this point the investigation had barely begun. Two 546 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 6: blocks away, Sarah Jane heard the news and realized that 547 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,439 Speaker 6: Popeye's death changed everything for her. It had been six 548 00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 6: months since she had provided a number of underground groups 549 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:21,919 Speaker 6: with a letter accusing Popeye of being a police informant. 550 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 6: Now he was dead, assassinated, as she told Playboy Magazine. 551 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 6: When he was killed, all I could think about was 552 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:32,840 Speaker 6: that I had fingered him. When I hung up the 553 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 6: phone after hearing the news, my immediate thought was, oh, 554 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 6: my god, I've killed Popeye. That same week, I got 555 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 6: another call. The voice on the other end said, you're 556 00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:48,800 Speaker 6: next next time on Rip Current. 557 00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 1: Rip Current was created and written by Toby Ball and 558 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: developed with Alexander Williams. Hosted by Toby Ball with Mary 559 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: Katherine Garrison. Original music by Jeff Sanoff, Show art by 560 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 1: Jeffney as Goda and Charles Rudder. Producers Jesse funk, Rema 561 00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: O'Kelly and Noams Griffin. Supervising producer Trelie Young. Executive producers 562 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,760 Speaker 1: Alexander Williams and Matt Frederick. Hear episodes of Rip Current 563 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 1: early completely add free and receive exclusive bonus content by 564 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:40,280 Speaker 1: subscribing to iHeart True Crime Plus only on Apple Podcasts. 565 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,440 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 566 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows, and visit 567 00:36:48,840 --> 00:37:00,000 Speaker 1: our website, ripcurrentpod dot com.