WEBVTT - Special Edition: MAKERS: Keep Going – Intersectionality

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Keim Azzarelli and you're listening to Seneca's conversations on

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<v Speaker 1>power and Purpose. I am so delighted to partner with

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<v Speaker 1>Makers on the special six part series called Keep Going.

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<v Speaker 1>In this series, we listen to incredible conversations from Makers

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<v Speaker 1>Conferences with a special focus on d e I. The

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<v Speaker 1>goal is to use these podcasts as a jumping off

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<v Speaker 1>point for conversations about d e I in your own organization.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to give a special thanks to the Maker's

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<v Speaker 1>conference sponsors, PNG, Price Waterhouse Cooper's an official wellness sponsor

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<v Speaker 1>Lulu Lemon. Now. We launched the Seneca Women podcast Network

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<v Speaker 1>about a year ago with founding partner PNG and I

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<v Speaker 1>Heart Radio with the goal of amplifying the voices of

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<v Speaker 1>women around the world. You probably know that podcasting is

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<v Speaker 1>a fast growing industry, with over fifty set of podcast

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<v Speaker 1>audience being women. But what you may not know is

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<v Speaker 1>that only twenty of top podcasts are hosted by women.

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<v Speaker 1>We want to change that, so we are launching dozens

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<v Speaker 1>of women focused and women led podcasts. So if you

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<v Speaker 1>have a show where you want to collaborate on a show,

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<v Speaker 1>reach out to us at info at Seneca Women dot

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<v Speaker 1>com Now, it gives me great pleasure to introduce our

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<v Speaker 1>guest host for the Keep Going series, Amina Brown. Amina

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<v Speaker 1>is a spoken word poet, author and host of the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast Her with Amina Brown on the Seneca Women Podcast Network. Amina,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks so much for joining us. Thank you, Kim. What

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<v Speaker 1>an honor to be guest hosting this special series and

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<v Speaker 1>collaboration with Makers. We've been having such great conversations here

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<v Speaker 1>and today's conversation is going to be very special. We're

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<v Speaker 1>going to start with an excerpt from a talk given

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<v Speaker 1>at Makers by Kimberly Crenshaw, Professor of Law at u

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<v Speaker 1>c l A and Columbia Law School and executive director

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<v Speaker 1>of the African American Policy Forum. She is the person

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<v Speaker 1>who coined the term intersectionality, and she's going to give

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<v Speaker 1>us a guide on exactly what it is, or as

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<v Speaker 1>she calls it, intersectionality. One oh one, and then I'll

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<v Speaker 1>be joined by Dr Ellabell Smith, Professor of Management Sciences

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<v Speaker 1>at the Tuch School of Business at Dartmouth. Dr Smith

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<v Speaker 1>and I will go deeper into the definition of intersectionality,

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<v Speaker 1>and she's going to suggest some practical ways leaders can

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<v Speaker 1>be sure they are taking intersectionality into consideration in the workplace. Now,

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<v Speaker 1>let's listen to Kimberly Crenshaw and I'll be back right

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<v Speaker 1>after with Dr Ellabell Smith. So I'm just gonna dive

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<v Speaker 1>right in with how intersectionality can help us understand why

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<v Speaker 1>we're not done. Now, there's a lot of nonsense circulating

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<v Speaker 1>around about what intersectionality is, particularly from its critics. They

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<v Speaker 1>say it's a religion, it's an identity politic on steroids.

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<v Speaker 1>My new favorite, it's a salt on straight white men.

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<v Speaker 1>You know what I think about that. Now, all of

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<v Speaker 1>these ideas about what intersectionality is is completely off the mark.

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<v Speaker 1>What intersectionality is is a prism. It's a framework, it's

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<v Speaker 1>a it's a template for seeing and telling different kinds

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<v Speaker 1>of stories about what happens in our workplaces, what happens

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<v Speaker 1>in society, and to whom it happens. Now, some part

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<v Speaker 1>of why we're not done is predicated on what we

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<v Speaker 1>haven't been able to see, what what's not remembered, the

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<v Speaker 1>stories that are not told. So intersectionality is like training wheels.

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<v Speaker 1>It's to get us to where we need to go.

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<v Speaker 1>It's glasses, high index glasses to help us see the

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<v Speaker 1>things we need to see now. In all honesty, when

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<v Speaker 1>I fashioned the term some thirty years ago, I thought

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<v Speaker 1>of it as remedial education for judges who didn't get

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<v Speaker 1>to see or didn't seem to understand what was howpening

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<v Speaker 1>to black women. They didn't seem to understand that black

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<v Speaker 1>women can experience race discrimination in a different way than

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<v Speaker 1>black men do, or they didn't understand that black women

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<v Speaker 1>could experience gender discrimination in a different way than white

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<v Speaker 1>women did. Emma Degraphy, storied, was a person who understood

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<v Speaker 1>that problem. She was claiming that she experienced discrimination as

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<v Speaker 1>a black woman, but her employer and the court seemed

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<v Speaker 1>to agree that since the employer hired black people and

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<v Speaker 1>they hired women, even though the black people that they

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<v Speaker 1>hired were all men and the women they hired were

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<v Speaker 1>all white, that Emma Degraphy couldn't prove discrimination. So I

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<v Speaker 1>was trying to figure out what kind of framework they

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<v Speaker 1>needed to see in order to keep black women from

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<v Speaker 1>falling through the cracks of their very narrow conception of

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<v Speaker 1>what discrimination was. So intersectionality was just like a flashing

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<v Speaker 1>knee on sign. I know you're used to thinking about

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<v Speaker 1>intersectionality discrimination in this way, but I want to draw

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<v Speaker 1>your attention to where they overlap, where race and gender

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<v Speaker 1>discrimination intersect. So the point of intersectionality was to say

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<v Speaker 1>that what happens to black women isn't the sum total

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<v Speaker 1>of what happens to black men and white women. It's

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<v Speaker 1>different and sometimes it requires a different approach. Now that's intersectionality.

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<v Speaker 1>One oh one. I think a lot of people get that.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh so good to hear about intersectionality from Kimberly Crenshaw herself,

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<v Speaker 1>And I'm excited to welcome Dr Ella bell Smith, Professor

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<v Speaker 1>of Management Sciences at the Tuch School of Business at Dartmouth,

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<v Speaker 1>to unpack some of this with me. Ella, talk to

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<v Speaker 1>me how how does intersectionality help us understand the particular

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<v Speaker 1>challenges that women of color are facing in the workplace. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>first of all, hello, hello, Hello, I'm just delighted to

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<v Speaker 1>be here. UM. Okay. In the early research on women

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<v Speaker 1>and management, UM breaking the glass ceiling that everybody was

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<v Speaker 1>talking about, there was a book all about white women.

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<v Speaker 1>Black women were invisible. UM the work that Um Price

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<v Speaker 1>Cobs did and others, and they were more organizational consultants.

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<v Speaker 1>The work they did around black executives was primarily based

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<v Speaker 1>on black men. So black women literally fell in between

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<v Speaker 1>the cracks. We still fall in between the cracks. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>intersexuality became really important because it allowed us to understand

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<v Speaker 1>the intersection of race and gender, and for Black women,

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<v Speaker 1>for Black women, for Brown women. We have to deal

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<v Speaker 1>with an Asian women, Indian women, Native American women, we

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<v Speaker 1>have to deal with the struggles that hit us because

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<v Speaker 1>of our race and because of our agenda. Now, there

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<v Speaker 1>was a scholar before Kimberly, and I love Kimberly. Um filomena,

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<v Speaker 1>he said, she used the term, and we used the

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<v Speaker 1>book in a term in our separate ways because we

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<v Speaker 1>wrote the book before Kimberly came out with a brilliant

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<v Speaker 1>framework of racialized sexism. So we have a long history,

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<v Speaker 1>if you will, over thirty years of trying to understand

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<v Speaker 1>the particular isms that black women experience. It's critical, very

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<v Speaker 1>I could go on give you another a recent example. Uh,

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<v Speaker 1>it's recently working with a client and um, they were

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<v Speaker 1>doing wage analysis, which is really really important. And I

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<v Speaker 1>was talking to the the guy who did they that

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<v Speaker 1>great guy, brilliant, you know, good technique, all that kind

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<v Speaker 1>of good stuff, and I noticed that he had people

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<v Speaker 1>of colored blacks separated from gender. And I said to

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<v Speaker 1>him in the analysis, and he was telling me, what,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, the numbers are too small. And I know

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<v Speaker 1>you're gonna be talking to me about intersectionality, but the

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<v Speaker 1>numbers are too small, and you have to do a

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<v Speaker 1>whole different cut. And if you're doing statistics, you have

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<v Speaker 1>to make sure you're filling all the cells in to

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<v Speaker 1>get a really good analysis. And they're not enough Black women,

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<v Speaker 1>and so we really can't do that analysis. And YadA YadA, YadA, YadA, YadA, YadA, YadA. Um,

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<v Speaker 1>we are still doing analysis UM around wage, around promotion,

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<v Speaker 1>around other types of advancement at still lump black men

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<v Speaker 1>and black women together, so we cannot differentiate what their

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<v Speaker 1>experiences UM are, particularly around sorry, particularly around advancement UM.

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<v Speaker 1>And you know, we've been preaching this song that you've

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<v Speaker 1>got to understand again Kimberly's turn on the intersection between

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<v Speaker 1>race and gender. So it's silences black women to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about their true experiences around racism, around sexism. It's silences

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<v Speaker 1>black women to be able to talk about their pain.

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<v Speaker 1>Its silences black women to be able to make demands

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<v Speaker 1>about wage, about fair treatment, about promotions, and that's devastating

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<v Speaker 1>because when you call it out, people really don't understand.

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<v Speaker 1>Why are you complaining? What's the issue, what's the problem?

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<v Speaker 1>You know, you're needy the unique journey that black women

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<v Speaker 1>have to deal with on a day to day basis.

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<v Speaker 1>It's not understood, it's not talked about. It can't be

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<v Speaker 1>fully celebrated either. Not all negative, it can't be fully

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<v Speaker 1>appreciated either. Let me ask you about this. We have

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of people listening to this podcast that are leaders, managers,

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<v Speaker 1>They are in positions to actually make some decisions regarding

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<v Speaker 1>how things go in the workplace. What advice would you

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<v Speaker 1>give to folks who are in a position to hire,

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<v Speaker 1>who are in a position to handle promotions, handle raises

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<v Speaker 1>and these different kind of conversations. What advice would you

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<v Speaker 1>give to them on how they can take intersectionality and

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<v Speaker 1>put it into practice. Don't ever show me as a

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<v Speaker 1>consult organizational consultant. Don't never show me here's what's happening

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<v Speaker 1>to the African Americans, and here's what's happening to the women.

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<v Speaker 1>What they can do, they can demand and always realize

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<v Speaker 1>that you have to in your approach of understanding institutionalized racism.

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<v Speaker 1>You need to look at it from a intersectional perspective.

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<v Speaker 1>What's happening to the black men, what's happening to the

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<v Speaker 1>black women, what's happening to the brown women, what's happening

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<v Speaker 1>to the brown men, and what's happening to the agents

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<v Speaker 1>based on race and gender. That becomes critically critically important.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't do these large lump analysis. Um, when you

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<v Speaker 1>look at your pipeline, don't tell me, well, I've got

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<v Speaker 1>women so often that here we've got women in the pipeline.

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<v Speaker 1>My question is what do those women look like? Well,

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<v Speaker 1>you know they're mostly white. Oh, you did an intersection analysis,

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<v Speaker 1>you would know that you don't have have a diverse

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<v Speaker 1>female popline. You just don't. And you're talking about we

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<v Speaker 1>got plenty of women. Why is it that when we

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<v Speaker 1>talk about women in management in an executive positions that

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<v Speaker 1>you know and and and those numbers are not great

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<v Speaker 1>by the way, Um, but when we talk about them, um,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, there's like, oh, yeah, we got women, but

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<v Speaker 1>there's no thought to what's the ratio background of those women.

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<v Speaker 1>And then when you say black women, well, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we haven't gotten there yet. It's like a second thought. Oh,

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<v Speaker 1>well we're gonna work on that next. Um. If you're

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<v Speaker 1>gonna give all women equal footing, which you should be doing,

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<v Speaker 1>then you've got to take an Internet intersectionality perspective. How

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<v Speaker 1>are you developing all women? Which means you've got to

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<v Speaker 1>look at it from a racial gender lens. Um development.

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<v Speaker 1>You know, I teach it talk that we do these

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<v Speaker 1>great executive programs. Um. If I see in a black

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<v Speaker 1>face and some of our executive programs, I'm shocked. I'm shocked.

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<v Speaker 1>Companies are not spending money on developing black talent period. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>they're just not. Um, those programs are phil with white

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<v Speaker 1>white men and a sprinkling of white women. Okay, but

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<v Speaker 1>then no brown faces, very very few. The reality of

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<v Speaker 1>it is, you've got them pay equal time to race

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<v Speaker 1>and gender. That intersection on who are you developing, who

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<v Speaker 1>are you grooming, who are you sponsoring? Who do you know?

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<v Speaker 1>What are you doing to get to know your diverse segments? Um,

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<v Speaker 1>And it can't be well, you know, we have we

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<v Speaker 1>have an affinity group for the blacks. I am tired

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<v Speaker 1>of hearing that. You know, yeah, we we we have

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<v Speaker 1>we have an employee reseurce group for our blacks. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>and we have one for women. Where do where do?

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<v Speaker 1>Where do women of color fitted? H They don't feel

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<v Speaker 1>totally welcomed in the white group because white women have

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<v Speaker 1>a very our Our book are Separate Ways, which is

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<v Speaker 1>coming back out in August reissued. Get a copy of Everybody.

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<v Speaker 1>Um shows clearly that the navigation that is needed for

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<v Speaker 1>a black woman to succeed in a corporate arena compared

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<v Speaker 1>to a white woman is very very different, Okay, different

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<v Speaker 1>realities night and day. So the reality of it is

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<v Speaker 1>you need to understand that women of color need a

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<v Speaker 1>safe harbor where they can come to support each other,

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<v Speaker 1>lift each other up, create a powerful network, and get

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<v Speaker 1>to know to corporate executives. Um. I'm very very proud

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<v Speaker 1>of the work that I did decades ago. Now at PepsiCo,

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<v Speaker 1>we actually started a based on the you know, the data.

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<v Speaker 1>Always start with your data, okay, always what is the

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<v Speaker 1>data tell you? Uh? And by data, you've got to

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<v Speaker 1>collect some data, you know. We did focus groups with

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<v Speaker 1>the African American women and the brown women, in Hispanic

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<v Speaker 1>women and the Asian women. We wanted to know what

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<v Speaker 1>their experiences where. We did exit interviews with the women okay.

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<v Speaker 1>We actually contacted women who had left PepsiCo okay, and

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<v Speaker 1>the data was like, oh my gosh, it was powerful

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<v Speaker 1>data which then enabled us to say, the women of

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<v Speaker 1>color need a special UM employee resource group, and PepsiCo

0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.520
<v Speaker 1>still has as far as I know, a woman of color,

0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:56.040
<v Speaker 1>multicultural women. I believe they call it affinity group. You know,

0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:59.960
<v Speaker 1>for years I did a leadership program ASCENT leading Global

0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.600
<v Speaker 1>Women to the Top, and that was a program that

0:16:03.640 --> 0:16:07.520
<v Speaker 1>did two things. Here's the skills for brown and black

0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:14.200
<v Speaker 1>and Asian women also UM white women to learn how

0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:18.120
<v Speaker 1>to navigate, how to succeed. If we can figure out

0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:23.000
<v Speaker 1>what's wrong with their reality in the workplace, then we

0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:25.920
<v Speaker 1>can flip that and understand what is needed in order

0:16:25.960 --> 0:16:29.760
<v Speaker 1>to get them to succeed, okay, both from their corporate

0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:33.720
<v Speaker 1>sponsors UH and the culture as well as how they

0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.640
<v Speaker 1>need to bring their voice to the table. The second

0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:41.440
<v Speaker 1>thing that program did was to bring white women into

0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:46.720
<v Speaker 1>the program so that the women of different racial backgrounds

0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:51.320
<v Speaker 1>to learn to be co conspirators, not allies. You know,

0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:53.840
<v Speaker 1>we talk a lot about allies. You know, Allies can

0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.800
<v Speaker 1>come and go and Allie can be there. Sometimes that

0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:58.640
<v Speaker 1>all I can say, well, you know this is not

0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:01.400
<v Speaker 1>in my best of venturess, So I'm not gonna fight

0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:05.040
<v Speaker 1>this battle with you. Sometimes allies this want to, you know,

0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:10.520
<v Speaker 1>have a coffee break with you. Um. We need co conspirators, um,

0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.600
<v Speaker 1>women who have skin in the game, women who really

0:17:14.600 --> 0:17:17.439
<v Speaker 1>look out for each other, I have your back, Women

0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:20.119
<v Speaker 1>who when they get to the table, particularly white women,

0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.840
<v Speaker 1>because white women get to the leadership table quicker than

0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.480
<v Speaker 1>black women, than Brown women, than Asian women, we need

0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.680
<v Speaker 1>to say once you're at that table, when they're at

0:17:29.680 --> 0:17:32.440
<v Speaker 1>that table, we need them to be able to say,

0:17:32.440 --> 0:17:36.440
<v Speaker 1>where are my fellow women who don't look like me?

0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:41.439
<v Speaker 1>So we wanted to build that relationship, UM, so that

0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:46.800
<v Speaker 1>they learned to become true sisters. Okay, because we don't

0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:50.359
<v Speaker 1>necessarily grow up having a white woman as our best

0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:52.560
<v Speaker 1>friend or a black woman as our best friend or

0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:55.680
<v Speaker 1>hanging out. You know, we live in a pretty segregated world.

0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:59.600
<v Speaker 1>Not if you have that blessing, that's fantastic, but we

0:17:59.680 --> 0:18:02.159
<v Speaker 1>want to to make sure that all women had and

0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.920
<v Speaker 1>that came to assent an opportunity to develop those deep,

0:18:07.280 --> 0:18:11.960
<v Speaker 1>trusting relationships, and those relationships you know, six years later,

0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:16.600
<v Speaker 1>are still strong, still strong. It's amazing to see and

0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:20.120
<v Speaker 1>how they support each other, you know. So you've got

0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:24.080
<v Speaker 1>to number one, get the women to come together to

0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:29.159
<v Speaker 1>realize that, you know, one success does not equal everybody's success.

0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:33.280
<v Speaker 1>Co conspirators want everybody to be successful, you know, and

0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:37.720
<v Speaker 1>am willing to fight for that in a diplomatic way. Okay,

0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.640
<v Speaker 1>But the companies have to be very aware on how

0:18:42.680 --> 0:18:46.720
<v Speaker 1>they're doing their analysis, what their pipeline looks like, who

0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:49.840
<v Speaker 1>are they developing, what they look like. You've got to

0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.639
<v Speaker 1>ask the question, you know what, who who's in it?

0:18:54.680 --> 0:19:00.640
<v Speaker 1>Based by race and gender? Okay, what kind of feedback

0:19:00.680 --> 0:19:03.680
<v Speaker 1>are we getting? What kind of opportunities are we creating?

0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:06.240
<v Speaker 1>You know, we we've got to be able to think

0:19:06.280 --> 0:19:09.439
<v Speaker 1>that and not just think every brown and black woman

0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:15.639
<v Speaker 1>and employee relations or human resources or diversity positions. Okay,

0:19:16.400 --> 0:19:19.760
<v Speaker 1>those are dead end. M hm, those are dead and

0:19:19.880 --> 0:19:23.000
<v Speaker 1>because oh, well we've got in and human resources, We've

0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:26.359
<v Speaker 1>got plenty of black women. Well who that. That's great,

0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:29.439
<v Speaker 1>that's a good feel. But we need to have them

0:19:29.520 --> 0:19:33.880
<v Speaker 1>in general management where they are accountable for the money

0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:39.520
<v Speaker 1>making part, the profit making part of the company. Yeah,

0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:41.400
<v Speaker 1>we need to be able to show that we've got

0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:46.720
<v Speaker 1>skills that we can do, that we can market a product.

0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.800
<v Speaker 1>You know, we we were in the profit generating centers.

0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:52.600
<v Speaker 1>That's the other thing I want to see. Don't tell

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:54.960
<v Speaker 1>me how I've got our d and I person is

0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:59.639
<v Speaker 1>African American. Really, I'm so surprised. You know, it's like, Okay,

0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:04.600
<v Speaker 1>where are they in the money generating centers? Uh, you're

0:20:04.600 --> 0:20:09.719
<v Speaker 1>missing an opportunity. Dr Ella bell Smith, thank you so

0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:14.439
<v Speaker 1>much for joining us and taking us to task. I

0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:17.560
<v Speaker 1>hope all of you that are listening are taken to

0:20:17.680 --> 0:20:21.639
<v Speaker 1>task today that we can consider intersectionality in our workplaces.

0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.440
<v Speaker 1>Dr Ella, thank you so much. You're so very welcome.

0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:33.240
<v Speaker 1>Dr Ella bell Smith. Always wonderful to hear from her,

0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.399
<v Speaker 1>and what a helpful way to look at and act

0:20:36.480 --> 0:20:40.200
<v Speaker 1>on intersectionality in the workplace. So here are three questions

0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:44.720
<v Speaker 1>to ask yourself when it comes to intersectionality. Do you

0:20:44.800 --> 0:20:47.520
<v Speaker 1>have the data in your own workplace that you need

0:20:47.560 --> 0:20:51.400
<v Speaker 1>to make progress? Are you collecting the information that will

0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.760
<v Speaker 1>allow you to address the specific needs of multicultural women

0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:57.399
<v Speaker 1>and women of color which may be different from the

0:20:57.400 --> 0:21:02.120
<v Speaker 1>needs of white women. Are you creating brave space where

0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.359
<v Speaker 1>white women can go beyond ally ship and become co

0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:11.040
<v Speaker 1>conspirators with women of color as they seek success and equity. Finally,

0:21:11.560 --> 0:21:15.160
<v Speaker 1>are you developing your pipeline, are you ensuring that it's

0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.240
<v Speaker 1>filled with people of color and women of color? And

0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:21.240
<v Speaker 1>as you bring people along, are you moving them into

0:21:21.280 --> 0:21:24.400
<v Speaker 1>positions where they can have a real impact on the company.

0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:29.040
<v Speaker 1>Let's think on these things and be ready to take action.

0:21:29.840 --> 0:21:37.119
<v Speaker 1>Thanks for listening. You're listening to Seneca's Conversations on power

0:21:37.200 --> 0:21:39.800
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