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Speaker 1: With the police banging on the door open up.

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Speaker 2: The choice to be in that lineup was the last

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Speaker 2: choice I made as a free man.

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Speaker 3: A year later, I ended up writing the system.

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Speaker 4: I'm going to be one of those people who everyone

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Speaker 4: in the world is going to think as a monster

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Speaker 4: or suspect as a monster for the rest of my life,

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Speaker 4: and I'm just going to have to come to peace

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Speaker 4: with that.

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Speaker 3: Somebody was able to look at my picture in the

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Speaker 3: database and say that I was somewhere where I definitely wasn't.

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Speaker 3: I overheard three of the jailers discussing what part they

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Speaker 3: might have to play in my hanging. They had been

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Speaker 3: told that two prison officers would have to participate in

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Speaker 3: my execution. Now I walked back inside that prison for

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Speaker 3: the last time. Man, all help broke loose.

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Speaker 2: But welcome to another episode of Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 2: Today we have a very incredible person as our guest.

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Speaker 2: Our featured exonnery today is Frankie Correo.

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Speaker 4: Korea was sixteen. In nineteen ninety one, fifteen sheriff's deputies

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Speaker 4: with guns drawn storm through the front door. Korea was

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Speaker 4: convicted of murder and sentenced to two consecutive life terms.

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Speaker 3: Frankie was released.

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Speaker 4: From jail in downtown LA this afternoon after spending twenty

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Speaker 4: years in prison. Rio was released after the court found

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Speaker 4: evidence that Koreo was framed through coerced testimony for a

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Speaker 4: fatal drive by shooting. The gang of corrupt LA Sheriff's

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Speaker 4: deputies known as the Linwood Vikings co wer six witnesses

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Speaker 4: into identifying him in a photo lineup.

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Speaker 3: Frankie, welcome, Jason's good to be here.

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Speaker 2: So, Frankie, your story begins when you were really just

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Speaker 2: a child and the baby man. Let's go back to

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Speaker 2: the beginning. You grew up in La, right, that's correct,

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Speaker 2: Southern California, and you had a pretty happy upbringing, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I would say that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, everything was going along more or less.

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Speaker 2: Okay, nothing's easy about being a sixteen year old boy,

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Speaker 2: that's right.

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Speaker 3: Then one day it all was turned upside down. That

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Speaker 3: day was January twenty fourth, nineteen ninety one. I was

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Speaker 3: just a little color there. I was a high school student.

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Speaker 3: I was a child of a divorce family, four siblings.

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Speaker 3: My father had raised us in stage of nine, so

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Speaker 3: it's a very male dominated household. Dad and two boys.

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Speaker 3: It was what I'd known for the past seven years.

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Speaker 2: And you had a sort of a unique situation too it,

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Speaker 2: which is that your mom had did one day just

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Speaker 2: decided to check out.

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Speaker 3: That's it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it wasn't like it got separated and you spent

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Speaker 2: half the time with her or she just left.

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Speaker 3: That was it. Yeah, I mean, it's an unfortunate story,

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Speaker 3: but that's what happened.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So you had been abandoned in a very real

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Speaker 2: way and experienced something that's obviously going to affect any

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Speaker 2: young man for the rest of his life. But that

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Speaker 2: wasn't the worst of what was to come by far.

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Speaker 2: And again, sixteen is really not a child, but you're

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Speaker 2: closer to a child.

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Speaker 1: Than an adult.

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Speaker 3: Right even though it was my age, I was sixteen,

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Speaker 3: Psychologically you're you're still a kid, you know, maybe operating

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Speaker 3: at thirteen fourteen level, not to you know, minimize it,

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Speaker 3: but I'm a boy, I'm a kid.

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Speaker 2: We were in tenth grade, tenth grader, tenth grade, exactly

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Speaker 2: what I'm saying. Tenth grade, you're you know, yeah, you're

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Speaker 2: closer to middle school than you are to college.

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Speaker 3: And they hadn't been shaved. So it's like a good,

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Speaker 3: good reference is that you're at the point where like

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Speaker 3: facial hair is sort of developing, but you're not there yet, Frankie, like,

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Speaker 3: hold off right.

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Speaker 2: And then one night, fifteen cops bust in your house.

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Speaker 2: What a surreal situation. You were asleep.

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Speaker 1: I was asleep, just a normal night.

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Speaker 3: Actually it was early morning, so it was dark, but

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Speaker 3: it was it was six in the morning when this happened.

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Speaker 3: And my father and I went home and they couldn't

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Speaker 3: get in. They were pounding away, and ultimately I opened

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Speaker 3: the door, looked out the window and new was them.

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Speaker 3: They were screaming who they were, and they stormed in,

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Speaker 3: stormed in, ordered my father and I to the floor.

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Speaker 3: And that's the beginning of the nightmare.

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Speaker 2: Really, so they already had to the floor. Did they

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Speaker 2: tell you what was going on?

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Speaker 3: I wish it did?

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Speaker 4: You know?

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Speaker 3: It was pretty strategic in all business, so they want to,

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Speaker 3: like ram Seck, the home was their main objective, and

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Speaker 3: you know, my father and I. My dad was trying

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Speaker 3: to exert his position, this is my home, what are

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Speaker 3: you doing here? And he was being ignored. So he's

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Speaker 3: telling me, like, what's happening. I'm like I don't know,

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Speaker 3: Like I have no idea why they're here. Soon after,

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Speaker 3: on the ride to the sheriff station is when I

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Speaker 3: learned that I had been accused and ultimately now being

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Speaker 3: arrested for a murderer I hadn't committed.

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Speaker 2: So you get to the sheriff's station and what happens next.

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Speaker 3: Really, I was expecting my father to show up, but

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Speaker 3: what happened was I was placed into an interrogation room.

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Speaker 3: The people who showed up instead were these two sort

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Speaker 3: of cowboy detectives ready to play the good call bad

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Speaker 3: cop on me, and I played along. You know. They

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Speaker 3: said what they were arrested me for, and if I

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Speaker 3: would willing to talk, and I said, sure, I'll talk

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Speaker 3: like I have nothing to hide.

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Speaker 1: Right, And so you waved your marana, right I did.

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Speaker 2: And that's such a crazy thing, Frankie, because I think

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Speaker 2: it's hard for most people to understand why someone would

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Speaker 2: wave their miranda when you.

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Speaker 1: Have the right to a lawyer who would going to

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Speaker 1: give that up?

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Speaker 2: But the fact is, in your case, I think it's

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Speaker 2: fairly typical, which is that if you're innocent, and this

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Speaker 2: is an ironic thing, right, if you're innocent, a lot

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Speaker 2: of people go in they think, well, why do I

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Speaker 2: need a lawyer. I'm just going to answer some questions,

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Speaker 2: and the justice system is going to work because I'm

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Speaker 2: an innocent person who abides by the law, and then

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Speaker 2: they'll see that they made a mistake and then they'll

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Speaker 2: go catch the real guy.

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Speaker 1: Exactly right.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, it's going to take stories like yours to help

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Speaker 2: educate people so that they don't do that. You do

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Speaker 2: not give up any information without getting a lawyer.

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Speaker 3: But I will adjason that when you're in that code

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Speaker 3: room and the power imbalance is obvious, you are in

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Speaker 3: a detention facility. Basically, you're in the stronghold, you're in

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Speaker 3: the sheriff's departments space, and you're there as a visitor.

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Speaker 3: You're there obviously being charged with this crime, in my case,

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Speaker 3: being wrongfully charged. And so to some degree, as a

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Speaker 3: young boy, you want these are adults. Some look at

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Speaker 3: these men and you want to cooperate. You want it

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Speaker 3: like I'll talk to you. I have nothing to hide.

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Speaker 3: It is sort of my position looking back now. Obviously

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Speaker 3: I wish I wish there was a Civics class that

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Speaker 3: would have said, you know what, no matter what, innocent, guilty, whatever,

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Speaker 3: the situation is just wait for your parents or wait

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Speaker 3: for a lawyer.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's a tragic twist or irony that when you're

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Speaker 2: innocent and you go into the situation, you're more likely

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Speaker 2: to waive your Miranda rights and if you're guilty. Exactly

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Speaker 2: in that interrogation room, how long were you interrogated for?

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Speaker 1: Do you even know?

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Speaker 3: You know? Surprisingly, I think back of that fived him

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Speaker 3: minute interrogation and I sort of left that room thinking,

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Speaker 3: you know, where was the lamp? You know, where were

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Speaker 3: these guys punching on me? Like, you know, you watch

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Speaker 3: enough TV to understand that this is supposed to unfold

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Speaker 3: a little bit differently than it did in my case.

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Speaker 3: At least, they were very quick to just say, there's

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Speaker 3: a young boy who witnessed the crime, who was adamant

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Speaker 3: that you were the guy who did it. So we

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Speaker 3: got you. Let's talk about you just confessing to it.

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Speaker 3: So it was really very brief, very precise on their end,

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Speaker 3: and I think I'm go on have chuckle not to

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Speaker 3: be silly here, but it was just like so unreal,

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Speaker 3: like one, you're are you sure you're talking to me?

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Speaker 3: I'm adamant that it wasn't me obviously, and their position

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Speaker 3: was like, we're beyond if you did it or not.

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Speaker 3: We just want you to just come clean, just confess

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Speaker 3: that you did it. And I was like, I can't

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Speaker 3: do that.

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Speaker 1: It ended after ten minutes.

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Speaker 3: That's it. Like they weren't trying to press me and

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Speaker 3: starve me out anything. They were just like, okay, well

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Speaker 3: we'll see you in court, like we're going to jail now,

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Speaker 3: Like that was it.

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Speaker 2: Hearing that and that's an unusual interrogation, and that it

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Speaker 2: went on for such a short period of time, it

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Speaker 2: sounds to me like at that point they actually did

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Speaker 2: think they had the right guy, because they were like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: well this guy's not gonna give it up, but we

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Speaker 2: got the right guy, so it's okay, We're gon We're

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Speaker 2: gonna get him no matter what. But as things unraveled,

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Speaker 2: they took steps that were corrupt and illegal. How did

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Speaker 2: they end up managing to convict you when you were

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Speaker 2: so obviously not the guy?

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Speaker 3: So you know, in Los Angeles at least, there's a

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Speaker 3: very familiar story about misconduct with the LAPD SO Rampart

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Speaker 3: Division scandal. It's more readily available knowledge. But my case

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Speaker 3: didn't involve LAPED involved the LA's Sheriff's department, and there's

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Speaker 3: a well known at least locally of the Linwood Vikings.

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Speaker 3: So Lindwood is where this crime happened and where my

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Speaker 3: arrest was ultimately investigated. And the Linwood Vikings had become

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Speaker 3: a rogue police gang. So what I thought is a

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Speaker 3: naive boy, that I was dealing with law enforcement who

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Speaker 3: were abided by the constitution and their policies in the department.

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Speaker 3: Some of the people on this investigation team were these

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Speaker 3: bad cops sort of fast forward in here of information

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Speaker 3: I knew, not at the time, but as the case developed.

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Speaker 3: And so when this young boy who was used to

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Speaker 3: identify me, who was shown a photo line of a

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Speaker 3: photo six pack to ultimately say this is the guy

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Speaker 3: who committed the crime, the case sounded pretty pretty cut

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Speaker 3: and dry. There's a witness, there's a he show was

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Speaker 3: showing a photographic lineup. He quickly identified the shooter. We

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Speaker 3: got in the rest Slamm Dunk. And so there was

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Speaker 3: a trial when I was tried as an adult and

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Speaker 3: moved forward to a conviction. But at some point it

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Speaker 3: was discovered that this young boy wasn't as innocent as

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Speaker 3: you know. He was more than just a witness. It

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Speaker 3: was revealed that he was an informant for one specific

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Speaker 3: law enforcement officer, Deputy Ditch. And so Deputy Ditch, Ditch,

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Speaker 3: Deputy of all.

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Speaker 1: Things, Deputy Ditch.

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Speaker 3: Right, I mean what a name, right, Craig Ditch is

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Speaker 3: the guy's name. He's now retired. The guy had this

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Speaker 3: boy under his wing as an informant, and he happened

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Speaker 3: to be at this crime scene, and so it was

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Speaker 3: very very easy to say, I'm your go to guy here.

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Speaker 3: So the story later was discovered that this young boy

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Speaker 3: was showing photographs after he'd been interviewed five times by

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Speaker 3: other investigators with no results. They realized Ditch had a

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Speaker 3: relationship with this boy. Ditch shows up cases over. The

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Speaker 3: case was solved once Stitch arrived in less than eight hours,

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Speaker 3: and the story that was revealed that the young boy

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Speaker 3: was showing the photographs as what was in the report,

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Speaker 3: and so he picks a random picture just to play along,

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Speaker 3: and Ditch says, that's the wrong guy. He's in jail

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Speaker 3: right now, try again. You know, I'm sure he's feeling

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Speaker 3: like an idiot. Point. You know, you're trying to help,

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Speaker 3: You're young, you're scared, so he picks another photograph, and

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Speaker 3: the deputy says, this guy's dead. What about this guy here?

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Speaker 3: We think he's trying to come up in the rankings

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Speaker 3: or whatever, And so the boy just says, yeah, I

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Speaker 3: guess that makes sense. I guess I guess that's the guy.

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Speaker 3: And this is there.

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Speaker 1: He was looking at six photographs. Yep, he was over

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Speaker 1: too exactly. He picked. He picked very badly. He picked

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Speaker 1: a guy who was in jail and a guy who

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Speaker 1: was dead. Right. That's yeah, really hard to make a

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Speaker 1: case against those guys. Right.

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Speaker 2: And by the way, it's sort of odd that there

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Speaker 2: was a guy in the six pack who was dead.

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Speaker 2: Give me a break, I mean, you would think they

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Speaker 2: would take that guy out just I mean to let

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Speaker 2: me jump in here and say, well, you know, Frankie,

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Speaker 2: what's up. You're coming off as this high school student,

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Speaker 2: nice guy. What's your photograph doing in the sheriff's apartment? Like,

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Speaker 2: tell us about that. I'm sure that was your next question, right,

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Speaker 2: I'm getting to that what happened.

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Speaker 3: In this environment is so nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one

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Speaker 3: is what we're referencing here. That specific sheriff's department's policy

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Speaker 3: was that if there was any anyone that you thought

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Speaker 3: was a potential bad kid or bad guy or bad anything,

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Speaker 3: let's do some racial profiling at this point, right, gather intel.

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Speaker 3: And so the photograph was obtained in the summer between

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Speaker 3: my sixth grade and seventh grade vacation block. There, me

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Speaker 3: and some of my buddies just riding our BMX spikes

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Speaker 3: through a local park, no big deal, summertime, and this deputy,

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Speaker 3: Deputy Luna, I remember the guy's name, sort of just

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Speaker 3: rolls up next to us. He's done of the official

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Speaker 3: lights on pull over. He stops, We stopped, start talking

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Speaker 3: about who has a girlfriend, and where do you live?

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Speaker 3: And what's up with you? Whatever? Right, just pretty cool

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Speaker 3: talking to a cop, No big deal. Then the guy says,

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Speaker 3: do you mind if I take your photograph to the group?

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Speaker 3: I don't remember us looking around saying what do you think? Guys?

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Speaker 3: We just like, I guess like you're a cop, right,

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Speaker 3: Like what do we say?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: And so this is the time when you had polaroad camera.

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Speaker 3: So the guy got out of his car, went into

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Speaker 3: the trunk and pulled out the little manual polaroid camera,

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Speaker 3: and one by one he just came to write where

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Speaker 3: we were on our bike standing and just snapped the photograph.

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Speaker 3: And so that photograph that was taken in a park

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Speaker 3: with trees in the background and whatever else was in

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Speaker 3: the background, I was smiling them picture. That photograph ended

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Speaker 3: up in the sixth pack. So talk about like a

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Speaker 3: chain of events here that fucks your life up, right,

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Speaker 3: Oh my.

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Speaker 2: God, I mean, that's really the most I've heard all

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Speaker 2: types of different stories, and you're right, that is a

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Speaker 2: question that people often ask, why was this picture?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 2: What we know is that if you live in a

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Speaker 2: poor neighborhood spetiicularly a poor minority neighborhood, the cops do

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Speaker 2: sweeps and they'll pick up everybody, right, And so your

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Speaker 2: picture could be in there because you had a joint,

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Speaker 2: or any other thing could be in there because you

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Speaker 2: were trespassing, right, I have air quotes under that one

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Speaker 2: or whatever. And so it's really true that a lot

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Speaker 2: of people have records for the most minor misdemeanors. In

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Speaker 2: your case, you had no record whatsoever. Actually, it was

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Speaker 2: probably I mean, thinking back to when I was in

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Speaker 2: sixth or seventh grade, if a cop would have asked

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Speaker 2: to take my picture, I would have felt good, right,

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Speaker 2: but like, wow, this guy.

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Speaker 1: Wants to take my picture. I'm pretty cool kid.

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Speaker 2: So your picture was in the lineup because this cop had,

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Speaker 2: in a sneaky way, racially profiled you as a thirteen

293
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Speaker 2: year old boy riding his bike in the park, which

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Speaker 2: is exactly as far as I can tell, what thirteen

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Speaker 2: year old boys are supposed to be doing. You were

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Speaker 2: identified in this insane process, right, which is literally like

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Speaker 2: it would be funny.

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Speaker 1: Except the results are so tragic.

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Speaker 2: So he eventually managed to come up with the answer

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Speaker 2: that the cop wanted, which he could have saved himself

301
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Speaker 2: the trouble by just saying initially to the kid, hey,

302
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Speaker 2: this is the guy we want identify him. That would

303
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Speaker 2: have been simple, exactly. I would have saved five minutes.

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Speaker 2: So you're identified, you go to trial.

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Speaker 3: Well, I try as an adult. I'm going to keep

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Speaker 3: parking this spit.

307
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Speaker 1: I'm a kid.

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Speaker 3: So there's a process here in California that determines if

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Speaker 3: you're worthy of juvenile court or you have to go

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Speaker 3: with the big boys. Right, And so this was a

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Speaker 3: murderer and they felt that it deserved it a higher punishment,

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Speaker 3: and so ultimately went to trial, had an assigned attorney

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Speaker 3: that the county. It wasn't a public defenders like a

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Speaker 3: panel attorney. I have to say this part here. And

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Speaker 3: when I walked into the court and I was chained

316
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Speaker 3: to you know, the chain gang there, everyone's there being arraigned,

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Speaker 3: all adults and then was looking like what did you do,

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Speaker 3: like steal some candy and blah blah blah, and you know,

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Speaker 3: they're just ragging on me, these adults who had obviously

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Speaker 3: been there before. And so I'm the last guy to

321
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Speaker 3: be arraigned, and so everyone's freaking out like, oh shit,

322
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Speaker 3: we weren't expecting that charge for this kid, right And

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Speaker 3: prior to that, I will say that, and it's and

324
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Speaker 3: it kind of goes to just me being so naive

325
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Speaker 3: here is that I heard someone call my name and

326
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Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm so little. I'm like raising my hand

327
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Speaker 3: like I'm over here. And I looked over and I

328
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Speaker 3: saw this good looking white man with this amazing suit on,

329
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Speaker 3: just like canned suit, walking towards me with the file

330
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Speaker 3: and I was like, oh my god, David, you have

331
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Speaker 3: signed me the best fucker in the room, man, Like

332
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Speaker 3: this is all going to be worked out, Like this

333
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Speaker 3: is it? I got the very sheck of the world. Sadly,

334
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Speaker 3: it's just an example of like where my mentality was,

335
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Speaker 3: even my perception of this new world. This courtroom was

336
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Speaker 3: like sadly, like the white guy come into your rescue

337
00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:01,840
Speaker 3: had like such an impact from living in a society

338
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Speaker 3: where the majority of people around you are people who

339
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Speaker 3: look like you and who you know than the teacher

340
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Speaker 3: or whatever, and so I thought it was a sort

341
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Speaker 3: of funny and looking back at that moment, getting me

342
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Speaker 3: so excited about everything's gonna be okay now right obviously.

343
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Speaker 2: Not obviously not. I mean the odds, the odds were

344
00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:21,120
Speaker 2: stacked against you. The government was willing to lie to

345
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Speaker 2: get the conviction. They were willing to use an incentivized witness,

346
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Speaker 2: and they convicted you, they did, and now you get

347
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Speaker 2: sent to maximum security prison.

348
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Speaker 3: At the time, they had a juvenile facility, so it

349
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Speaker 3: was like the Youth Authority for young adults. So I

350
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Speaker 3: went there and the sentence was thirty years to life,

351
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Speaker 3: with an additional six life sentences attached to that. So

352
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Speaker 3: I'll say that when I heard those words coming to

353
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Speaker 3: the judge's mouth, I couldn't imagine or perceived like a

354
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Speaker 3: week or a few months in my life to now

355
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Speaker 3: to imagine thirty years to life plus life, I couldn't

356
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Speaker 3: even comprehend that. For someone wants to be sort of

357
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Speaker 3: funny and sort of mess with me, it meant like,

358
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Speaker 3: do thirty years to life die and then you're back

359
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Speaker 3: in prison, like even if you ever come back, right,

360
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Speaker 3: And it was.

361
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Speaker 1: Like, you mean, like if you get reincarnated.

362
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Speaker 3: I suppose, right, like you're you're seting you up for

363
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Speaker 3: your next life.

364
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Speaker 2: It doesn't make any sense, right, and none of this

365
00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,080
Speaker 2: makes any sense, But that in particular doesn't make any

366
00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,040
Speaker 2: sense just in terms of the semantics of it. It's

367
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Speaker 2: interesting too write because there was a witness who actually

368
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,000
Speaker 2: wanted to come forward and who had information that could

369
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Speaker 2: have prevented you from being convicted in the first place.

370
00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:28,320
Speaker 3: Is there was, so he wasn't just a witness. This

371
00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 3: guy that you're referring to was the actual killer. So

372
00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:35,120
Speaker 3: as a bizarre twist in this case, the investigator had

373
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Speaker 3: discovered who the murderer was, and your investigator there and

374
00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,840
Speaker 3: this is it's a bizarre twist all this. And it's

375
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Speaker 3: not to minimize the bad police work here, but now

376
00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 3: it's also bad defense work here. My defense attorney had

377
00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,520
Speaker 3: an investigator who had went out and become the world's

378
00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,880
Speaker 3: best investigator by tracking down who excumented the crime. Turns

379
00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:57,360
Speaker 3: out he knew the murderer, and so there was just

380
00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,000
Speaker 3: this conflict of interest of either get off the case

381
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,280
Speaker 3: or reveal that this is the guy who did it.

382
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 3: He had this young man, the actual murderer, confessed to

383
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Speaker 3: the crime. There's a six page confession that he took

384
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,159
Speaker 3: from this man, and what he tried to do. To

385
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Speaker 3: his credit, he tried to convince this guy to come

386
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Speaker 3: to the court and just say, look, Frankie didn't do it,

387
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,520
Speaker 3: it was me. And he arrived with an attorney. You

388
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Speaker 3: would assume that the judge would say, well, wait a

389
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Speaker 3: minute here, before Frankie goes down and he's sentenced, let's

390
00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:28,919
Speaker 3: hear about this guy in the hallway. And lo and behold,

391
00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:31,560
Speaker 3: the judge says, you're too late. You've been convicted by

392
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Speaker 3: a jury. All this sort of like last information that's

393
00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:37,600
Speaker 3: apparently in the hallway. Just deal with it in your appeal.

394
00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,720
Speaker 2: So after the jury renders you guilty, and the guy

395
00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:44,199
Speaker 2: standing outside the doors of the courtroom exactly who's actually

396
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:45,600
Speaker 2: holding the cards to your freedom?

397
00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,359
Speaker 3: Well, I mean it would have shed light if someone

398
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:50,359
Speaker 3: cared about truth, right, it would have been like, well,

399
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:52,720
Speaker 3: let's bring this guy in. And so it failed me

400
00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:55,880
Speaker 3: even again at that point, that's such a crazy it's

401
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,080
Speaker 3: a bizarre man. You were like thirty feet from freedom

402
00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,199
Speaker 3: sort of right, the doors would have opened and this

403
00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 3: guy would have been allowed to walk in and provided

404
00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:05,720
Speaker 3: he actually came clean, true, because he might have changed

405
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:06,080
Speaker 3: his mind.

406
00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 1: People do that.

407
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:11,480
Speaker 2: But you had a real opportunity to avoid this most

408
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,520
Speaker 2: nightmarish fate that anybody can possibly imagine. But that's not

409
00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:18,440
Speaker 2: what happened. And ultimately there were six witnesses who testified

410
00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:22,040
Speaker 2: against you, and the crazy thing is they all recanted, right,

411
00:18:22,240 --> 00:18:23,760
Speaker 2: eventually they all recanted.

412
00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,120
Speaker 3: They initially use this one boy, the swift year old boy,

413
00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:28,720
Speaker 3: to arrest me based on this photographic lineup, and so

414
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:31,760
Speaker 3: six months which is bizarre. Here everyone was under eighteen,

415
00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:34,240
Speaker 3: so that everyone was very young. Six months maybe even

416
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,400
Speaker 3: seven months after the crime had occurred. For the first time,

417
00:18:37,600 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 3: the other five boys had been shown the photographic lineup.

418
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,200
Speaker 3: And we all know about memory, and there's been studies

419
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,360
Speaker 3: and it's been proven that this is not a recording.

420
00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:45,600
Speaker 1: Dick.

421
00:18:45,640 --> 00:18:47,840
Speaker 3: You have on your phone. In your mind, memories record

422
00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:49,800
Speaker 3: a little bit differently. It's like little snapshots, and as

423
00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:53,720
Speaker 3: time goes on they fade and other information filters in

424
00:18:53,760 --> 00:18:56,400
Speaker 3: and it gets very tainted. So it's hard to really recall,

425
00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,480
Speaker 3: especially a dry by shooting the middle of the night.

426
00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,640
Speaker 3: You hear gunfire, you're ducking, you're running, So to really

427
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:05,800
Speaker 3: capture that, it's like an immediate on the scene interview

428
00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 3: is like the best one. So we're talking about seven

429
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 3: months later now where these boys are showing photographs for

430
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 3: the first time ever. Wow, And sure enough, sure enough,

431
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:17,000
Speaker 3: one by one they say, yep, that's the guy. It's

432
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,040
Speaker 3: photograph number one. And it was obviously later determined that's

433
00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:22,280
Speaker 3: this young boy. The fifteen year old boy. Made it

434
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 3: a point to tell everyone else if they ever show

435
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,399
Speaker 3: you photographs, believe me, I know who did it. It

436
00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:31,240
Speaker 3: was photograph number one. And so now we got six people.

437
00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:35,399
Speaker 2: Right, And it's so absurd to think that seven months later,

438
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,159
Speaker 2: as you said, in the middle of the night, in

439
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 2: the dark and a drive by shooting, all the factors

440
00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,439
Speaker 2: are there for almost a guarantee of wrongful identification, a

441
00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 2: mess identification, and that's exactly what happened. So you spent

442
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:50,119
Speaker 2: much more than half your life behind bars. You're only

443
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 2: really a cognizant human, right maybe for ten years to

444
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:56,720
Speaker 2: a round number, so more than twice that amount of time.

445
00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 2: You're now in a cage in a violent, scary, hostile environment.

446
00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:05,160
Speaker 2: How did you manage to make it through that?

447
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:13,200
Speaker 3: You know? Well, you know, when I think back about

448
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 3: how I survived twenty years incarceration, what I remembered most

449
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,959
Speaker 3: about something my dad said sort of in passing or

450
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,119
Speaker 3: just try to give me some advice up to dinner table,

451
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,200
Speaker 3: which was if there's adults around, go to them. He's

452
00:20:25,200 --> 00:20:28,159
Speaker 3: sort of instilling these things about just society, they'll help you.

453
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 3: And so I think, here I am in a room

454
00:20:30,840 --> 00:20:33,400
Speaker 3: full of adults. I'm in an adult court, and I'm

455
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:35,879
Speaker 3: expecting everyone to do the right thing just because you're

456
00:20:35,920 --> 00:20:37,920
Speaker 3: an adult. I'm a kid. You're supposed to be watching

457
00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:41,200
Speaker 3: out for the system and yourself and everyone in the room.

458
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:46,439
Speaker 3: And so that went haywire. That that failed me. But

459
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:51,119
Speaker 3: I think that this very fuzzy idea of humanity was

460
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 3: being born, and so I arrived in the place that

461
00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:56,320
Speaker 3: was very sad. I mean, it's dangerous when you hear

462
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:58,880
Speaker 3: about it from the outside, but from the inside it's

463
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:03,280
Speaker 3: a very somber and just a sad place where people

464
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,640
Speaker 3: are being confined. And so I'm talking to you from

465
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 3: the ground level here other people who don't want to

466
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 3: be there, and they're also suffering on whatever level, and

467
00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,719
Speaker 3: you join in on this pity party about life, you know.

468
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 3: And so first couple of years of that, you know,

469
00:21:16,480 --> 00:21:18,439
Speaker 3: you're trying to sort of find your place. It's a

470
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 3: social dynamic there, and so you're moving in groups of

471
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 3: your kind, and you know, you get a job and

472
00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 3: you kind of get active in what's happening there. But

473
00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 3: luckily for me, and I really thank my dad for

474
00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:32,680
Speaker 3: saying that, it's instilling in this idea that whoever they are,

475
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 3: but people are good people. And in my case, I

476
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,439
Speaker 3: had to be careful with who I told that I

477
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,880
Speaker 3: was innocent, because you know, that's back to the sort

478
00:21:39,880 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 3: of ranking about like you're a murderer in prison has

479
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 3: more status than if you're there for child molestation. And

480
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 3: so even in my environment, I think innocent is probably

481
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,439
Speaker 3: below child molester. You don't belong here, like what the

482
00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 3: fuck man like you're you know, I mean a criminal

483
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:56,919
Speaker 3: like we're all you know, we're all tough here. So

484
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 3: I learned that I made a mistake and told the

485
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 3: wrong guy that I was innocent, and the look he

486
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 3: gave me was like, oh shit, maybe I shouldn't be

487
00:22:03,840 --> 00:22:06,840
Speaker 3: telling people that I'm not like you, right Obviously, like

488
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,119
Speaker 3: everyone else I read and I and I feel like

489
00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 3: I'm on a sound like a natural chameleon. So I

490
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:14,719
Speaker 3: just adapted to my environment. I've been always been very diplomatic,

491
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:17,520
Speaker 3: so I was always trying to be the peacekeeper, and

492
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,880
Speaker 3: so that helped the pain. And also, like the hope

493
00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:24,000
Speaker 3: was that like somewhere, somehow someone was going to realize

494
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:26,440
Speaker 3: that this was a huge mistake. And so the system

495
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 3: that failed me, the criminal justice system that failed me,

496
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 3: and everyone who makes that sort of turn, you know,

497
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,679
Speaker 3: happen and work though it's it's supposed to work. I

498
00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:39,359
Speaker 3: suppose I was expecting them to figure it out and

499
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,199
Speaker 3: help me. It's sort of like suspending reality and thinking,

500
00:22:42,640 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 3: forget what just happened to you where you've been wrongly convicted,

501
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:49,320
Speaker 3: and try to hold onto the one piece that these

502
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 3: people can do the right thing, and some expecting people

503
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 3: to do the right thing.

504
00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: It's incredible that you would be expecting people to do

505
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:59,119
Speaker 2: the right thing when, with the exception of your father,

506
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: everybody who was supposed to have protected you either abandoned

507
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: you or turned on you in the most vicious way,

508
00:23:06,560 --> 00:23:09,639
Speaker 2: and yet you maintained this outlook like, if I just

509
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,919
Speaker 2: be me and be honest and be optimistic, then eventually

510
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 2: people are going to accept me for who I am,

511
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 2: which is an innocent guide trapped in a sentence that

512
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,520
Speaker 2: doesn't belong to me. That's really there's a lot to

513
00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,479
Speaker 2: be learned from that, right, because all of us go

514
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,320
Speaker 2: through little disappointments on a daily basements, right, or a

515
00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 2: weekly basis or whatever, and so many people react to those,

516
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 2: and certainly being around you and the other exgneries, I

517
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 2: always say, it puts gratitude in my attitude, you know,

518
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 2: and I learned to be I think much more understanding

519
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: of life's little twists and turns, because they all seem

520
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 2: so trivial. When you deal with someone who's been through

521
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 2: hell right and managed to maintain not just sanity, but

522
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: a sense of grace and kindness and optimism, it's remarkable,

523
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: you know.

524
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 3: I'm going to add to also, Jason, that there was

525
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 3: something happening that I didn't realize this until many years later.

526
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 3: But we're all conditioned in the way, and specifically, when

527
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 3: we think of prison, we think of the ugliest human

528
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 3: from his behavior, what he did, or the way he

529
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,239
Speaker 3: looks and the tattoos and ponytail. Whatever we have in

530
00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 3: our minds etched out as like what a prison who

531
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:17,080
Speaker 3: looks like. And so imagine a guy who's great looking

532
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 3: as I am in a prison. You might think, oh, man,

533
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 3: this guy's vulnerable to like sexual assaults, right, But the

534
00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 3: reality is that pull perversion out of it. You're in

535
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,159
Speaker 3: a place where you're almost like a porcelain figurine in

536
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 3: a bar, and it's almost like people want to protect you,

537
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 3: and they're curious about, like, what's this guy with no

538
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 3: tattoos doing amongst us? Why is he so nice? Like,

539
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 3: you know, we're all mean and talking shit to each other,

540
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 3: and this guy's like talking about good morning and whatever. Right,

541
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 3: And so I learned that my humanity hadn't been detached

542
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,240
Speaker 3: from me. There was no guilt that made me feel

543
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:50,120
Speaker 3: like I couldn't be human. So I was just who

544
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,560
Speaker 3: I thought I had to be, And as time went on,

545
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 3: I'd use it as a shield because I knew that

546
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 3: that was happening, that there was like these social conditioning

547
00:24:57,160 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 3: that was working in my favor, even just a survival part,

548
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 3: let alone the criminal justice be trying to get out.

549
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 2: Now that you've been out for six years, and hearing

550
00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,600
Speaker 2: you talk about it, you're very calm, and you paint

551
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:26,399
Speaker 2: a picture that is I think either you're in a

552
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 2: little bit of denial, you know, like they say, denial

553
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:28,440
Speaker 2: is not.

554
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:29,159
Speaker 1: A river in Egypt.

555
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 2: About how terrifying and how I know it was a

556
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 2: brutal experience, no matter all the things you're saying, notwithstanding,

557
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 2: but I do want to turn to the happy part

558
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: of the story, right your exoneration and then what happened

559
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 2: after you got out, because America loves to come back. Yeah, man,

560
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: and your story is very uplifting. I mean, just the

561
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 2: fact that you're here now has got to be inspiring

562
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: to so many people. So how did you Was it

563
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,760
Speaker 2: the Northern California Innocent's Project that took your case?

564
00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 3: I think my exoneration is sort of twofold here, But

565
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,679
Speaker 3: when it came to the legal components to it, I

566
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 3: did what many other people do. They write letters and

567
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 3: they bother their families and that they have a friend

568
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 3: who they can nag about it. They do that like

569
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:12,360
Speaker 3: it's a constant scratching away at this right. And so

570
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,359
Speaker 3: for me, it was a fifteen year letter writing campaign

571
00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 3: that went nowhere. I mean it was Oprah and twenty

572
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,119
Speaker 3: twenty and forty eight hours and some roll back, you know,

573
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:23,399
Speaker 3: along with Barry shk who wasn't interested in at the

574
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,480
Speaker 3: time with a case who wasn't involved in DNA, which

575
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 3: I understood. But as bizarre as it was, I was.

576
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 3: I was a folesome prisoner working as a teacher's aid.

577
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 3: So I was, you know, helping the teacher correct papers

578
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 3: and do some algebra on the board, whatever, just pretty

579
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 3: basic stuff, right. And Tony Carter, who was a teacher,

580
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,239
Speaker 3: she is about to retire, and there was like this

581
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,399
Speaker 3: internal policy where you can't get too close to the

582
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,440
Speaker 3: prisoners because they'll fire you and so on. And so

583
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:48,679
Speaker 3: I knew that, and now I want to get her

584
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: in trouble. So she knew my plight, but I never

585
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 3: never went as far as to say, hey, Tony, would

586
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 3: he help? But now I figure she's done, you know,

587
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,119
Speaker 3: she's about to retire. Now is the time, right, So

588
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,880
Speaker 3: on the last moments she's walking away on that Friday,

589
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 3: I say, Tony, Tony, and she looks back and she says, yeah,

590
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:06,520
Speaker 3: what's up. Did you forget to say something? And sure

591
00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,040
Speaker 3: enough I did, right? I said, would you help me?

592
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 3: She's like sure, Like, what can I do for you? Right?

593
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 3: You know my story, if Nelicher retired, if you're in

594
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 3: your travels in the world, if you come across a lawyer,

595
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,120
Speaker 3: a reporter, anyone you think might be interested in my story,

596
00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 3: would you just mind just sharing that with them? And

597
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 3: I think anyone would have said yes, it's pretty simple. Right,

598
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,440
Speaker 3: you're about to leave, and so she she says, sure,

599
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 3: I can do that, and I was. I was really

600
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 3: relieved because a letter I can do that all day long,

601
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 3: but face to face it's a different dynamic there. But

602
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 3: I felt really happy that I was able to muster

603
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 3: the guts to do that. And so turns out that

604
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 3: six months after that conversation, she was invited to a

605
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 3: book club in Sacramento. This guy named Bo Mosof who's

606
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,600
Speaker 3: now has passed, who was going to do some book

607
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 3: signing and she had seen him before, and so she

608
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:53,560
Speaker 3: shows up and lo and behold, there's an attorney in

609
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 3: the room, and luckily for me, she mentioned that she

610
00:27:56,920 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 3: was a lawyer because I guess who was listening Tony,

611
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,360
Speaker 3: who says, oh shit, I guess this is I guess

612
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,480
Speaker 3: this is a calling, right, So she goes over and says,

613
00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 3: I heard you're a lawyer, and you know have this guy.

614
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 3: You know, I used to be a former teacher in prison,

615
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 3: and there's a story I want to share with you.

616
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 3: And literally that's what's triggered it. This woman was Ellen Naggers,

617
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 3: was a public defender working on death penalty cases in California,

618
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 3: who then got in touch with Northern California Innocence Project

619
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 3: Morrison Forrester, and this dream came together. It took them

620
00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 3: five years, and they could have taken them ten years.

621
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:31,000
Speaker 3: I didn't care. But finally someone was going beyond the

622
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 3: record and saying, let's listen to this guy has to say.

623
00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: So they turned stones over that had been ignored. They

624
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 3: tracked down these six boys, these now men, you know,

625
00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: they weren't kids anymore, and one by one it was

626
00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 3: almost like if they were being freed from their own miseries.

627
00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 3: They all, from what I hear, they were all so

628
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:51,959
Speaker 3: gracious to say like, you know what, thank you for

629
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 3: finding me. I need to tell you the truth as

630
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 3: if they were living with this pain as well. There

631
00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 3: was witnesses that were brought in to clarify the Paul.

632
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 3: Things were described that happened couldn't have happened. And so

633
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: the evidence that was used against me had gone away

634
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: and there was a final hearing. Luckily for me, the

635
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: Los Angeles disc Attorney's office conceded the case, so there

636
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 3: was ultimately no fight. They agreed that this had gone

637
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 3: wrong and I was free to go. And so the

638
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,360
Speaker 3: words I've been yearning to hear all my life, well

639
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 3: it seemed to be my entire life, the judge said them,

640
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: which is basically, get out of here.

641
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 1: You apologize.

642
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: The DA's apologized in the room, which felt really good.

643
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 3: They came over and shook my hand. I think the

644
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 3: judge he gave more of like a philosophical response to that,

645
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,280
Speaker 3: but it was less about him. It was more about

646
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 3: the DA's office. And it turned out that the corporate

647
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 3: the bad players here were just as bad cop. I'm

648
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 3: a big fan of law enforcement, but in this situation,

649
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,760
Speaker 3: it was a bad cop who was tied up with

650
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 3: this internal gang situation and shit went bad and I

651
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 3: had to suffer.

652
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 2: Yes, you certainly did. So you walked out of the courthouse.

653
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: You walked in, Well, you were arrested and you can

654
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: walk in. You were taken in as a sixteen year

655
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 2: old boy. You walk out as a thirty seven year

656
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 2: old man.

657
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,520
Speaker 1: What's that like? You walk out?

658
00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: I mean, what is freedom taste? And your dad had

659
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 2: died in the drum, right, so now you're an orphan yep,

660
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: and you walk out into what would you do?

661
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,120
Speaker 1: Did you go get something to eat?

662
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 4: Like?

663
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: What'd you DoD? I mean?

664
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 3: I wish I would have been released from the court room.

665
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 3: I was released from the Sheriff's Department's jail there the

666
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 3: county jail, I La County jail. And it was about

667
00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 3: it was mid midweek. It was about maybe two in

668
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 3: the afternoon, and they called me out of my cell

669
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 3: and took me down to the street level when doors open,

670
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 3: and there was like a TMZ moment, really, all these

671
00:30:35,360 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: cameras bouncing on their shoulders trying to interview me, right,

672
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: and all the mics come out before my family and

673
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 3: lawyers could get to me. And how does it feel

674
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 3: to be free? How does it feel to be free, right,

675
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 3: and the big question, And I think I ignored that one

676
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 3: because I sort of thought about that for a very

677
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 3: long time when I was in prison. What's they going

678
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 3: to feel like? And it sort of felt stupid, as safe,

679
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 3: it felt as great or whatever. So but I remember

680
00:30:57,280 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 3: thinking that it was such a bright day, the colors

681
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 3: that just at my disposal now it seemed to be

682
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 3: like a century overload, which is my immediate reaction was

683
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 3: whoa the wind, the colors, the people, the attention, because

684
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 3: you know, Jason, the reality was that at a very

685
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:14,480
Speaker 3: young age I had become like the man in the

686
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 3: iron mask, where my voice was taken away. My existence

687
00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:23,640
Speaker 3: before I had a chance to even blossom, was extinguished.

688
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 3: There was no chance for this young life to become anything,

689
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,560
Speaker 3: and so I had to live with that. I lived

690
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 3: with the fact that when I did try to make

691
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 3: an attempt to speak up for myself, I was ignored

692
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 3: and that was minimized. So that was a personal struggle

693
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 3: that all kind of came together the day I was out,

694
00:31:39,640 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: So from no attention to like, hey, we're all here

695
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 3: for you, right, which was great. My attorneys were there,

696
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 3: my family was there. Somehow I hadn't seen them very

697
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:48,560
Speaker 3: long time, and.

698
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: So what happened? So then you're out? Yeah, where'd you go?

699
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 3: And I was ushered into a car pretty quickly, and

700
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 3: we went to Echo Park to a friend's home who

701
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 3: they had a good whole food sort of spread awaiting

702
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 3: for me. Right, So I went for a cafeteria food

703
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 3: for twenty years or prison food, which is even worse,

704
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 3: to this long table of organic almonds and dried apricots.

705
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 4: You know.

706
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 3: So that was pretty cool.

707
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 2: Almonds and apricots a whole ya, man, sounds a little biblical,

708
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 2: you know, It's kind of funny, that's right.

709
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: I was thinking of you.

710
00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 2: I was thinking, you're gonna say you got like a sandwiches,

711
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 2: and you know, I was picturing more of a you know.

712
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 2: I mean, if they had almonds and eight apricots, I

713
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 2: would have actually been pissed out of it, like come on, really,

714
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 2: like can I get a slice?

715
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, pizza? Something? I mean, come on, man.

716
00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:34,360
Speaker 2: So then you went home, and then you know, now

717
00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: here it is. You rebuilt your life. You successfully filed

718
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 2: a lawsuit, well, you had two lawsuits, right, and one

719
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 2: was settled. The other one you won, right, so you're

720
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: now unlike many of our x houneries. There's a bright

721
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: spot there because you know I talk about often. But

722
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 2: the fact is, you know, so many ex houneries and

723
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,720
Speaker 2: something we're working to fix, do not receive compensation. You

724
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 2: were able to prove violations of your civil rights and

725
00:33:02,720 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 2: other things that led to you being compensated in a

726
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,560
Speaker 2: meaningful way. That's going to now allow you to help

727
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 2: fix the system. That that would be a great full circle,

728
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 2: wouldn't it.

729
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,760
Speaker 3: You know, I can't wait, and I'm not minimizing the

730
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 3: money here because it makes my life very enjoyable. I

731
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,719
Speaker 3: think the true joyous moments for me since I've been

732
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 3: home is that before I even got out, And this

733
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 3: is this is I hope it can be sort of

734
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 3: passed along to those who are who were imprisoned rightly

735
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 3: or wrongly. But this idea that you have to before

736
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 3: you even get out. You can't sort of prepare yourself

737
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 3: the week to date, that the week to the night before,

738
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,240
Speaker 3: like okay, tomorrow is my big release date. Let me

739
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,520
Speaker 3: kind of get my thoughts together. This has to happen

740
00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 3: long before the door opens. And so I feel that

741
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:43,520
Speaker 3: in sort of credit to myself and those who were

742
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: around me that my transition phase happened long before the

743
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: door opened, and so when the door opened, I felt

744
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 3: very prepared to just attempt to just now really be free.

745
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: Because a common theme was when you got there, some

746
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 3: older guy kind of gave you some like advice. As

747
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 3: an example, you have five years years to do, and

748
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,440
Speaker 3: the advice was, for the first four years, just kind

749
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 3: of hang out, man, you know you're in prison, Just relax,

750
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 3: just play some cards and shit, and if you know

751
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 3: you want to play dominoes, go work out, right. But

752
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 3: the last year, man, like the last year, like, you know,

753
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 3: go to church, or if you're smoking, stop smoking, get

754
00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 3: it together, right, And I thought that was pretty good advice. Shit,

755
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 3: why not, man? What else you got to lose? Right?

756
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 3: And at some point I realized that that even though

757
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 3: it was a lifer, that advice applied to me, and

758
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 3: it was against suspending complete reality here, but it was like,

759
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 3: you know what, I'm making all these efforts to try

760
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,520
Speaker 3: to get my case hurt and try to get some

761
00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,120
Speaker 3: attention here. Let me work on me too, Let me

762
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 3: work on this idea that I need to prepare myself.

763
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,560
Speaker 3: And so fast forward, I went a month after I

764
00:34:41,560 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 3: got out with some good friends Scott Wooden and who

765
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 3: ended up living with in Mannon Beach and his wife

766
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 3: Jeanie would. I enrolled at a great university in Los Angeles,

767
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: Loyola Marymount University. So I went from and I'm sort

768
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 3: of funny here, but I went from one prison to

769
00:34:55,400 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 3: another because it had all the elements that I needed.

770
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 3: And it felt like for a guy like me, I

771
00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 3: needed the structure that I had been accustomed to. And

772
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 3: it's not the put down, but it was the university

773
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 3: gave me the camaraderie, the friendship. There was no Bob Wire,

774
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 3: but shit, I had deadlines, man. I had to show up,

775
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 3: you know. And so it went from a very negative

776
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 3: environment that I was into a very very loving and

777
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:20,440
Speaker 3: encouraging space, which was the school right along with just

778
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 3: sort of being active and being activism. How could I

779
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 3: not support the Innocence Project and ways the end of

780
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 3: death penalty in California and other social issues around the state.

781
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 2: And that's just gotten a whole lot worse with the

782
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 2: speed up to death penalty referendum that passed in California,

783
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 2: which is absolutely unimaginable and unconscionable that people would have

784
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: been terrible because well, essentially they voted for guaranteeing that

785
00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,280
Speaker 2: we're going to execute a lot of innocent people because

786
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 2: the changes to the law are devastating to people who

787
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 2: have claims of innocence. It's exactly what it sounds like.

788
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: It's to speed up to death penalty. Yep, none of

789
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,359
Speaker 2: it makes any sense. But voices like yours and all

790
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 2: the cure that is the media is really driving interest

791
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 2: in this issue, this issue of innocence, this issue of

792
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 2: mass incarceration and other related criminal justice problems that are

793
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 2: sadly uniquely American problems because other countries are so much

794
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,760
Speaker 2: more evolved than we are. You know, it's incredible, Frankie.

795
00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: We have five percent of the world's population at twenty

796
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 2: five percent of the world's prison population. The point I'm

797
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: making is that when we process people at this rate,

798
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:32,919
Speaker 2: where we just keep feeding this prison industrial complex, they're

799
00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: going to be mistakes, They're going to be more Frankie Correos,

800
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: we have to reverse the entire way of thinking that

801
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 2: we have and start to become a more progressive society

802
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:44,560
Speaker 2: in terms of the way we treat the people who

803
00:36:44,600 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: are really the least among us, people who find themselves

804
00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 2: in the situation that you are in, not a wealthy

805
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: person by any means, and then just being ground.

806
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: Up by the system.

807
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 2: I want to get to last words because I always

808
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 2: like to give our guests the opportunity to air anything

809
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: that you can think of that you want to share

810
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 2: with our audience. You've been through so much, You've come

811
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:09,760
Speaker 2: through sounding, looking, feeling, acting like a person who knows stuff.

812
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,720
Speaker 2: You have such a calm demeanor and such a positive outlook.

813
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,360
Speaker 2: It's almost unnerving to be honest with you, you know.

814
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,840
Speaker 2: I mean for a minute there you were making prison

815
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 2: sound like it was like, yeah, you know whatever this

816
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: many years that man, I'm like, it's just.

817
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,279
Speaker 3: You know, thank you Jason for these final words here

818
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 3: that I think that for many people listening, and people

819
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: even in my life now think, you know, like this dude,

820
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 3: you know this optimism stuff is he's taken to a

821
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 3: different level here, right. And you know, I wish that

822
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:39,000
Speaker 3: I can sort of either write a book or explain

823
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,399
Speaker 3: how I made it through and how these things weren't

824
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 3: able to penetrate my armor here. But I suffer I

825
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 3: can't minimize that there are things and moments where I

826
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:50,239
Speaker 3: might hear a song that might trigger true sadness about

827
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 3: what I'd experienced as a whole, about the things that

828
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 3: were lost, about you know, all the what ifs. Right

829
00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,880
Speaker 3: and very quickly I made it a point to remember

830
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 3: what anger and what revenge and what hatred does to someone.

831
00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 3: Tell you even deeper here that when I was in prison,

832
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:09,839
Speaker 3: I think about those who had owned that, who had

833
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 3: owned the anger and the revenge and the hatred, and

834
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,880
Speaker 3: I saw these men that were being blinded by it,

835
00:38:16,800 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 3: and I don't want to be that. And here we

836
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 3: are in a room full of statues, this beautiful art

837
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 3: that predates all of us here, and I think about

838
00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,520
Speaker 3: if that was who I'd become in prison, I would

839
00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be here one and two. If I had

840
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 3: traces of that and I was out on some level,

841
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,319
Speaker 3: I would still be on the inside. I would be

842
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 3: physically free, but the rage that would be living within

843
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 3: me would be like a prison all to itself. And

844
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 3: so I mean, I'm happy that I can make those

845
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:44,960
Speaker 3: connections of my own existence for my own personal healing

846
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 3: and as a move forward to my life. And speaking

847
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 3: of that life, I'm happily married, I have three amazing children,

848
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:54,880
Speaker 3: I have theo Akiva and Frieda, my wife, FT is

849
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:57,320
Speaker 3: amazing and life is great. And I think it's a

850
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 3: responsibility for not only myself my family to take on

851
00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 3: this responsibility of giving people the pleasure of experiencing the

852
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:09,680
Speaker 3: cognitive dissonance, which is you are around or you hear

853
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 3: and you experience something. It suspends you from and it

854
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 3: shocks you into like this is not what I expected

855
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:17,759
Speaker 3: from a guy who had been in prison for all

856
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,799
Speaker 3: these years. And it challenges you your own beliefs, your

857
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:24,240
Speaker 3: own things you've been carrying with you. This psychological moment

858
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 3: says wow, like I need to change what I used

859
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 3: to think about those who were on the inside. And

860
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 3: so it's a responsibility for me and other exenreies, I

861
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 3: feel that to awaken that side of all of us

862
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 3: to say, let's not do that, Let's not do that

863
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 3: to each other. And when someone says, and it's not

864
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 3: a joke anymore that they are innocent, let's listen because

865
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 3: we know many experiences and many stories that are tragic

866
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,759
Speaker 3: that we've been listening to this whole weekend of If

867
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 3: only someone really listened and cared.

868
00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and everybody out there has the power to make

869
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 2: a difference. I always encourage our audience to get involved,

870
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,879
Speaker 2: and it's great to see that many of them are,

871
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:03,320
Speaker 2: I know, and hearing story. For me again, it puts

872
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:06,240
Speaker 2: gratitude in my attitude. It makes all those little wham

873
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,080
Speaker 2: wains that we all have in life just seem so

874
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 2: much easier to deal with and so much to surface

875
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,359
Speaker 2: noise right when somebody like you can come and have

876
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: this sort of aura. And it's amazing, Frankie. You know,

877
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,200
Speaker 2: the fact is, to any of us in the movement

878
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:24,840
Speaker 2: and to other people on the outside, it's a source

879
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 2: of never ending wonder and awe that every single Xonery

880
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 2: I've ever met has some version of that type of

881
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,879
Speaker 2: higher consciousness that you've managed to achieve. They have this

882
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 2: state of almost like a state of grace that is

883
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,480
Speaker 2: it's just inspiring, that's all it is. And so I

884
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,800
Speaker 2: appreciate you taking the time to share your experience, strength

885
00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 2: and hope with us. And again, I'm just going to

886
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 2: have to take a moment to process this, and then

887
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 2: I'm going to go and get busy and get back

888
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 2: to work on helping others.

889
00:41:00,320 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 3: That's right.

890
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 1: We've had a very.

891
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 2: Unique experience because we've been recording the podcast in an

892
00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,680
Speaker 2: idyllic environment. We're actually in a room and a home

893
00:41:08,920 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 2: overlooking the Pacific Ocean on a cliff, surrounded by the

894
00:41:12,880 --> 00:41:16,720
Speaker 2: most incredible African art. So I want to thank our hosts,

895
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: Bill LaRock and Michelle Chicarelli The Rock for having us

896
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: here and allowing us to record in their beautiful home.

897
00:41:29,200 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 2: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review wherever you

898
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 2: get your podcasts.

899
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: It really helps.

900
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: And I'm a proud donor to the Ennosis Project, and

901
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 2: I really hope you'll join me in supporting this very

902
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 2: important cause and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go

903
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,120
Speaker 2: to Innocenceproject dot org to learn how to donate and

904
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:50,320
Speaker 2: get involved. I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

905
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,040
Speaker 2: Hall and Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is

906
00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 2: by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure

907
00:41:56,600 --> 00:41:59,640
Speaker 2: to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on

908
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:03,760
Speaker 2: faceboo book at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

909
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 2: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and

910
00:42:06,800 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: association with Signal Company Number one