Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Is there any realness
Speaker 1: to the phrase sleep when the baby sleeps. I mean,
Speaker 1: I have a twelve year old and a six year old,
Speaker 1: and I still remember it to this day, what it
Speaker 1: was like. It would be lovely. If you can sleep
Speaker 1: when your baby sleeps, that's great. If you can do it.
Speaker 1: I never was able to do it. We were talking
Speaker 1: about keeping an ear out. That's what I always did.
Speaker 1: Even if I went to sleep and I had someone
Speaker 1: else watching, I was just hard wired to be listening
Speaker 1: for whatever would be happening. So if you can rest,
Speaker 1: that's ideal. It's more about prioritizing what I mean, Like,
Speaker 1: I know there were times when my kids would nap,
Speaker 1: wo be like, I gotta go and wash the bottles,
Speaker 1: I gotta go to this. Does that stuff really need
Speaker 1: to happen in that moment? Maybe you can just rest. Hillo, everybody,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Katie's Crib. We are here today with
Speaker 1: Dr Shelby Harris talking about momsomnia. Sleep is such a
Speaker 1: huge thing. Normally, I've done so many episodes about the
Speaker 1: baby sleeping, about the toddler sleep schedule. All of this crap.
Speaker 1: No one is talking about my sleep. So let me
Speaker 1: tell you a little bit about our guest today. Dr
Speaker 1: Harris is has a private practice in White Plains, New York,
Speaker 1: very close to where I'm from. She specializes in the
Speaker 1: use of cognitive behavior therapy otherwise known as CBT for
Speaker 1: anxiety and depression. She's also the author of the Women's
Speaker 1: Guide to Overcoming Insomnia, a roadmap for those who experience
Speaker 1: anything from occasional bad nights to chronic insomnia. She's Board
Speaker 1: certified in Behavioral Sleep Medicine BSM by the American Academy
Speaker 1: of Sleep Medicine in trees a wide variety of sleep disorders,
Speaker 1: including insomnia, using evidence based, non pharmacological treatments. Dr Harris
Speaker 1: has been invited columnist for New York Times for Dr
Speaker 1: Oz's website You Beauty for Psychology Today. She's frequently quoted
Speaker 1: in the media, like in The Freaking New York Times
Speaker 1: and huff Post and The New Yorker. She's appeared on
Speaker 1: a Freaking Today Show, World News, Diet Sawyer, Good Morning America.
Speaker 1: The list goes on. So whatever she's qualified. Dr Shelby
Speaker 1: Harris Thank you so much for coming onto Katie's crib.
Speaker 1: Thank you. She's very qualified to be talking about this.
Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. How did you get into
Speaker 1: sleep psychology? So I took a year before going to
Speaker 1: graduate school and I worked in a medical school at
Speaker 1: Brown University where I went front undergrad and I was
Speaker 1: doing research in people who had addictions, and I was
Speaker 1: going into rehabs and it was for alcohol addiction, and
Speaker 1: the study was looking at treating sleep problems, insomnia and
Speaker 1: people who were in early recovery, because a lot of
Speaker 1: times people relapse because they're not sleeping. And what we
Speaker 1: found was getting people to sleep better actually helped to
Speaker 1: reduce the rates of relapse. And that to me was
Speaker 1: groundbreaking and eye opening to see that how many things
Speaker 1: could really be changed just by getting some good nights
Speaker 1: of sleep if it's any sort of addiction issue. But
Speaker 1: then mood, it's sleep is such a fundamental that it
Speaker 1: really made me start thinking about how I want to
Speaker 1: study it more and more in my life. Amazing, I
Speaker 1: already have eight thousand questions. Okay, you described in the
Speaker 1: NYT Parenting column that momsomnia is where a lot of
Speaker 1: moms and some dads, but mostly moms almost become hardwired
Speaker 1: to listen for what are called sleep threats. Okay, every
Speaker 1: mom listening to this right now knows like if your
Speaker 1: kid is about to cry, you like wake up two
Speaker 1: minutes before, or like I can hear my kid open
Speaker 1: his door and start walking down the hallway like in
Speaker 1: advance every morning. It's so crazy, and even when the
Speaker 1: threat is gone, they continue to have trouble with sleep
Speaker 1: because we're so conditioned to keep listening. Can you tell
Speaker 1: us more about why you took a particular interest in momsomnia.
Speaker 1: So when I was practicing for a long time and
Speaker 1: I was approached about writing a book, I started to
Speaker 1: They started to think, well, what area would you want
Speaker 1: to meet, maybe more focus on. I realized that so
Speaker 1: many of my patients were a women of all different
Speaker 1: age ranges, and I just noticed that women sleep, whether
Speaker 1: it be mom ssomnie of like burning the candle at
Speaker 1: both ends not making sleep a priority, or the other
Speaker 1: thing is that insomnia of when people's kids, mom's kids
Speaker 1: start sleeping better, the babies just better. You still are
Speaker 1: keeping an ear out and you start to have insomnia.
Speaker 1: That was just a fascinating are and I mean that
Speaker 1: people years ago we're talking about I'm so glad that
Speaker 1: it's really now taken off and people are talking about it.
Speaker 1: Women sleep just has not been focused on until recently.
Speaker 1: So now there's you know, new moms and perimenopause and menopause,
Speaker 1: and I'm so glad that we're talking about all this stuff. Wow.
Speaker 1: I mean, it does definitely continue on. I mean I
Speaker 1: definitely feel like before and a half year old, I
Speaker 1: feel like I haven't slept in I've always been a
Speaker 1: great sleeper, and it was my first foray into insomnia
Speaker 1: and sleep issues during pregnancy, you know, like that's my
Speaker 1: first time like going to the bathroom constantly being so
Speaker 1: physically uncomfortable that you can't switch positions, you can't sleep
Speaker 1: on your stomach, and then it translates into the first
Speaker 1: three months, which are basically just hell in a handbag.
Speaker 1: I had such bad postpartum depression with my daughter, and
Speaker 1: sometimes I think, had I slept, would it have been
Speaker 1: as bad? Probably, yes, But I don't know. I always
Speaker 1: tell people, you know, sleep deprivation is a form of
Speaker 1: torture in war times, and like that's what we're doing
Speaker 1: at the beginning. Do you deal with women who are
Speaker 1: so um that are in the postpartum area, like more recent. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know I did not make any sense. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: yeah totally. Yeah. The thing that I wish people would
Speaker 1: talk about more when they're about to have the baby
Speaker 1: is coming up with sleep plans based on your life,
Speaker 1: your help. You hopefully can have available conversations with your partner.
Speaker 1: I some people have night nurses, some people don't. What
Speaker 1: could a plan look like? So a plan could really
Speaker 1: It really varies from family to family. So what I
Speaker 1: did was I and I was very I talked about
Speaker 1: it on my Instagram account a lot. I had a
Speaker 1: lot of trouble breastfeeding and I just could not produce anything.
Speaker 1: So we were we were bottle feeding and that's what
Speaker 1: we were just doing. So I took shifts with my husband.
Speaker 1: So we made it very clear that he was going
Speaker 1: to take the I think it was like nine to
Speaker 1: two shift, and then I took from two to six
Speaker 1: every day and we bottle fed. If you're someone who
Speaker 1: is breastfeeding, you know that's something where if you're not
Speaker 1: bottle feeding, you could also think about having someone come
Speaker 1: feeding or change the baby, do all the diaper, all
Speaker 1: that sort of stuff and just hand to you if
Speaker 1: you're doing breastfeeding solely at night, so to really try
Speaker 1: to get help when you can, and if you don't
Speaker 1: have a significant other to help with it at night,
Speaker 1: then it's really about thinking about what can you do
Speaker 1: during the day to get some rest here and there, um,
Speaker 1: But really thinking about what you're doing for feeding shifts
Speaker 1: that you're going to do, and where can you get
Speaker 1: some downtime naps or rest whatever you can during the day,
Speaker 1: and asking for help. Don't assume that you should be
Speaker 1: able to do it all yourself. That's the case. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's really great. I I have to say, like people
Speaker 1: are like, what does the night nurse do if you
Speaker 1: are breastfeeding? And I was breastfeeding, and I have to
Speaker 1: say it was for us worth the money, um, because yes,
Speaker 1: I would breastfeed for forty minutes, but she would, like
Speaker 1: you said, do the diaper ring get that. I would
Speaker 1: literally put the baby on my boob and then throw
Speaker 1: the baby back at her and run to my bed
Speaker 1: while she was rechanging the diaper, getting the baby back down.
Speaker 1: All of these things that are like an additional twenty
Speaker 1: or thirty minutes that I didn't have to go through.
Speaker 1: The Other thing is if a night nurse is not
Speaker 1: in option for you, you know, Adam and I had
Speaker 1: conversations where I was like, I'm going to breastfeed and
Speaker 1: do this at night, but you're gonna do that. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna pump enough for a bottle, you know, for the
Speaker 1: ten pm feed, and I'm going to go to bed
Speaker 1: right at eight o'clock and I'll be up at two
Speaker 1: or three. But there was a real understanding between us
Speaker 1: that if he's going to be getting the better quality,
Speaker 1: longer sleep at night, it's so that he can really
Speaker 1: fucking pull it out in the day, do you know
Speaker 1: what I mean? Like I was like, oh, if I'm
Speaker 1: going to be taking the night shifts, the brunt of
Speaker 1: them for these months, like that means that you're really
Speaker 1: getting a good six hours at night, you're gonna need
Speaker 1: to deliver in the daytime. And he did good, good,
Speaker 1: But you see, like all that stuff is the conversation,
Speaker 1: like you can't predict what's going to happen, but you
Speaker 1: can try and be as prepared as possible beforehand. And
Speaker 1: like I had prepared, I had planned to breastfeed, and
Speaker 1: I couldn't do it like there's all those things that
Speaker 1: can happen, but try to come up with as many
Speaker 1: options that you can in advance, because when you're sleep deprived,
Speaker 1: when you're thinking about key being a child alive, that's
Speaker 1: not the time to necessarily problem solve how you're going
Speaker 1: to work as a team. So to really be proactive
Speaker 1: is going to pay off big time. That's such a
Speaker 1: great tip because I have to tell you most of
Speaker 1: my couple's friends, the big gass knockdown, drag out fights
Speaker 1: and the way they've treated each other like they've never
Speaker 1: done before, happened in the middle of the night where
Speaker 1: it's like they're not even because you're not dealing with
Speaker 1: like a stable personal the rational mind I was says,
Speaker 1: the rational mind is not there two in the morning.
Speaker 1: It just doesn't And you're like, go to sleep, Why
Speaker 1: won't my baby sleep? And it's just frustration and anger
Speaker 1: and it's just is not the time to problem solve
Speaker 1: all that. Granted, baby, it's gonna throw you a million
Speaker 1: different things. You're not gonna know what exactly is gonna happen.
Speaker 1: You can't plan for everything, but to have some framework
Speaker 1: of trying to protect some time for sleep. And what
Speaker 1: you're talking about with postpartum depression, we actually see all
Speaker 1: the time and um and and it's been proven in
Speaker 1: research that if you don't dedicate a block for at
Speaker 1: least four hours of protected sleep, what we find actually
Speaker 1: starts to happen is that if you had a prior
Speaker 1: history of depression or anxiety, you're actually at a greater
Speaker 1: risk of developing postpartum depression or anxiety. So we really,
Speaker 1: I really want people to start thinking about it when
Speaker 1: they're pregnant, of game plans of what you can do
Speaker 1: to try and get four hours. That's all I'm asking
Speaker 1: for of a protected sleep period. Why is four hours
Speaker 1: the magic number? It's just what we found in research.
Speaker 1: It's enough to be um protective and restorative somewhat. So
Speaker 1: you're getting enough sleep cycles of ram deep sleep to
Speaker 1: be restorative enough that then you can make up for
Speaker 1: it a little bit with naps here and there if
Speaker 1: you need to. When you first get home, I think
Speaker 1: most people are riding high from the endorphins and the
Speaker 1: serotonin and all of these things. So to be waking
Speaker 1: up every hour to two hours to feed a baby,
Speaker 1: whether that to be a bottle or breast you're kind
Speaker 1: of still riding this high of like we did it,
Speaker 1: this is new, all of this, and then whenever that
Speaker 1: fades for people and you realize, oh no, this is
Speaker 1: what it is like, you're going to be waking up
Speaker 1: like this. That's when I I felt like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: going to be institutionalized, Like I'm going to lose my
Speaker 1: fucking mind. I can't do this anymore. I felt like
Speaker 1: it was like just absolutely dangerous. So I love the
Speaker 1: idea of making a sleep plan in pregnancy of how
Speaker 1: you and your support system can protect some sort of
Speaker 1: sleep for yourself because we're so focused on the baby, right,
Speaker 1: how are you going to feed your baby? How are
Speaker 1: you where's your baby going to sleep? All that stuff
Speaker 1: that we get lost in the whole thing that I
Speaker 1: think really thinking if you have a family unit or
Speaker 1: mom parent, whoever it is, if the baby is sleeping, well,
Speaker 1: the parents are gonna sleep off. The parents are sleeping, well,
Speaker 1: it's going to help the baby. Also understanding what normal
Speaker 1: is right people often, I mean I have people contact
Speaker 1: me like, three weeks postpartum, how can I sleep my training,
Speaker 1: sleep train my baby? That's not how many really, that's
Speaker 1: not how it works so it's really also having expectations
Speaker 1: of what it should look like and then trying to
Speaker 1: work your world around how baby sleep is going to
Speaker 1: be so you can protect some time too. Is there
Speaker 1: any realness to the phrase sleep when the baby sleeps,
Speaker 1: which is the thing that everyone tells you, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: what their naps during the day like? Is that when
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be like running to your bed and
Speaker 1: praying that you can convince yourself to fall asleep or
Speaker 1: if not, just rest right. I mean, I have a
Speaker 1: twelve year old and a six year old and I
Speaker 1: still remember it to this day what it was like.
Speaker 1: It would be lovely. If you can sleep when your
Speaker 1: baby sleeps, that's great. If you can do it. I
Speaker 1: never was able to do it. We were talking about
Speaker 1: keeping an ear out. That's what I always did. Even
Speaker 1: if I went to sleep and I had someone else watching,
Speaker 1: I was just hard wired to be listening for whatever
Speaker 1: would be happening. So if you can rest, that's ideal.
Speaker 1: It's more about prioritizing, what I mean, Like, I know
Speaker 1: there were times when my kids would nap, wo be like,
Speaker 1: I gotta go and wash the bottles, I gotta go
Speaker 1: to does that stuff really need to happen in that moment,
Speaker 1: Maybe you can just rest, because then if you start
Speaker 1: pretty sleep on that pedestal when the naps are supposed
Speaker 1: to happen, you're gonna make it worse for yourself. Just rest,
Speaker 1: that's the key. Yeah. And also I like that point,
Speaker 1: which is I think a lot of moms that whole
Speaker 1: sleep when the baby's sleeping, they run to their bed
Speaker 1: and sleep isn't achievable because they can't stop their mind.
Speaker 1: And then they start racing even more because they're not
Speaker 1: sleeping and they're looking at the clock knowing that the
Speaker 1: baby is gonna wake up soon. And now you're just
Speaker 1: nothing but frustrated and anxious that you didn't get sleep.
Speaker 1: So really, the goal should just be to lay flat
Speaker 1: on your back, close your eyes in deep breathe, chill,
Speaker 1: just chill. Find something to do to decompress. That's the goal.
Speaker 1: So and if you sleep extra benefit, wonderful, But don't
Speaker 1: force it because the more you're forcing it, like you're
Speaker 1: saying that we're frustrated and anxious, you're gonna get find
Speaker 1: something that's relaxing. Psychology Today mentions a term called emotional labor,
Speaker 1: saying that it's the invisible will work to make others
Speaker 1: feel cared for and comfortable. It has expanded into conversations
Speaker 1: about gendered roles, which you know, women being expected to
Speaker 1: assume more empathetic responsiveness and caretaking. Can you explain how
Speaker 1: emotional labor and task management, how this impacts sleep, and
Speaker 1: how in the fuck we reduce this? Come on? Good
Speaker 1: luck with that. I think it's a societal thing too,
Speaker 1: But I do see some waves. I mean it's a
Speaker 1: huge desidal thing. I think there's waves changing of expectations. Right,
Speaker 1: so we lose ourselves when we're thinking about caring for
Speaker 1: everyone else. That that's those moments where you need to
Speaker 1: say to yourself, Okay, the first thing is if you
Speaker 1: can sleep, Like what what has to be done? Do
Speaker 1: I have to do all these things for everyone else
Speaker 1: before I go to bed, and to really think about
Speaker 1: prioritizing what what I like to be done, what a
Speaker 1: society say that I need to have done? Do I
Speaker 1: need to have a perfectly clean house? And he's someone
Speaker 1: steps or comes over tomorrow unexpected, my in law has
Speaker 1: come over. It's letting go of that stuff, letting go
Speaker 1: of the expectations that you have for yourself and really
Speaker 1: about prioritizing what needs to get done. Who do I
Speaker 1: need to be focusing on in this moment, What would
Speaker 1: I'd like to get done? And what can wait for
Speaker 1: a day or a week or whatever. And if you
Speaker 1: think about it that way, what's the most pressing It
Speaker 1: will help to take some of that pressure off yourself.
Speaker 1: I think, go to bed with the sink full of dishes,
Speaker 1: go to bed with a house that's messy. No one cares.
Speaker 1: If you think that it matters, it doesn't. This has
Speaker 1: been a huge learning curve for me what you're speaking
Speaker 1: of right now. I've always kept a very O C
Speaker 1: D control oriented house and I have had to throw
Speaker 1: a lot of that ship away to like read a book,
Speaker 1: and I've had to like reconfigure how my brain space works.
Speaker 1: I'm a virgo. I love when ship looks pretty and organized.
Speaker 1: I have a very far Are you a virgo? Yep?
Speaker 1: Oh hilarious. I when's your birthday? September? So, but like
Speaker 1: I have a hard time doing anything if she doesn't
Speaker 1: look right to my eye. And I have had to
Speaker 1: really retrain myself of like not making the bed every
Speaker 1: day because it just fell off the list. Or like
Speaker 1: you said, leaving ship out in the living room, all
Speaker 1: over the table, not cleaning up from dinner. On some
Speaker 1: nights where I've just been like I'm done. I cannot.
Speaker 1: I promised myself I would be in bed by nine o'clock.
Speaker 1: I'm not doing it. And I have to say it's
Speaker 1: been better. It's free, right. Yes, yes, My one of
Speaker 1: my best friends said to me a few years ago,
Speaker 1: and this will stick with me forever, and I loved it.
Speaker 1: I apologize because she was going to come over for
Speaker 1: just a quick drop off and I said, um, I
Speaker 1: apologize my house as a mess. And she looked at
Speaker 1: me and said, you never need to apologize. You're a
Speaker 1: busy mom. Your house is as it is. I will
Speaker 1: not judge you for anything. And that to me, I
Speaker 1: wish that we just said that to another right to
Speaker 1: just be out and it was so free, just like
Speaker 1: there's no expectations. I think COVID a little bit helped
Speaker 1: with that too for me of just like getting in
Speaker 1: the habit of like oh, no one was coming over.
Speaker 1: I mean now we're like sort of opening back up.
Speaker 1: And I've definitely been like, oh my god, I'm so embarrassed.
Speaker 1: We didn't like make the bed today, which like it's
Speaker 1: ingrained in me as a child. I mean, my mom
Speaker 1: didn't let me go to school unless my bed was made.
Speaker 1: But now I'm in a relationship, which we're going to
Speaker 1: get into this question in a minute. What tips do
Speaker 1: you have? This is big on sleep for couples who
Speaker 1: get up at different times of the freaking day. They
Speaker 1: share the same bed, they get in bed at different times.
Speaker 1: I can count on two hands the amount of times
Speaker 1: my husband and I have gone to sleep at the
Speaker 1: same time and woken up at the same time. I
Speaker 1: am so impressed at couples that do that. My sleep
Speaker 1: is always in interrupted and so is his because he
Speaker 1: comes into bed late. It wakes me up. Then I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I should pee, I go pee, I come back. I
Speaker 1: wake up really early with the kids. He's asleep. We're
Speaker 1: on opposite schedules. What are your recommendations for that. I
Speaker 1: am convinced that we should all be Lucy and DESI
Speaker 1: and just be in two twin bens and like meet
Speaker 1: up for sex. Like I, this is so ridiculous that
Speaker 1: we should. You know, I agree with you. So the
Speaker 1: first thing is I think people have this old school.
Speaker 1: I think it's changing, but I mean some of my
Speaker 1: older patients I've worked with have this idea of, like,
Speaker 1: I have to go to bed at the same time
Speaker 1: as my spouse because for whatever we have to get up,
Speaker 1: And there's this weird like association with being tied together,
Speaker 1: sleep together, meeting a healthier relationship bs total bs. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's great to know everyone ever done that. I'm so glad.
Speaker 1: Like if you go to like, everyone has different sleep schedules.
Speaker 1: Some people are night at als, people are early versus.
Speaker 1: My husband is much more of a night owl. I
Speaker 1: get up five fifteen in the morning. I go to
Speaker 1: bed super early, and it's okay. It doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: if you try to force one person to keep someone
Speaker 1: else's sleep schedule, all that does is make more resentment
Speaker 1: in the relationship. So I try to encourage people to
Speaker 1: know what your sleep schedule is. If you're content with
Speaker 1: how you sleep, that's the thing. Like I work with
Speaker 1: in slomnia patients sometimes and I'm changing their bedtimes and
Speaker 1: wake times and sometimes it works out with what their
Speaker 1: husband or spouses doing. That's fine, but don't try to
Speaker 1: force it if it's not happening. Now. The other thing
Speaker 1: that you were kind of hitting on is sleeping separately,
Speaker 1: So if well before that, if you if you have
Speaker 1: to keep different times of sleep, like because of kids
Speaker 1: or whatever, there's you know, there's also a little bit
Speaker 1: of disrespect, like some people just lighter sleepers than other
Speaker 1: and that's it is what it is. You just have
Speaker 1: to accept it and not be angry if someone comes
Speaker 1: in and gets into bed unless you have like a
Speaker 1: California king and no one gets affected by it, but
Speaker 1: it just it might happen. But there's a bit of
Speaker 1: a discussion of okay, could you not turn on all
Speaker 1: the lights? Could you take out your clothes and advance
Speaker 1: so you're not opening and being thought full about that stuff.
Speaker 1: And the one other thing I always recommend is vibrating
Speaker 1: alarm clocks so you can get like a watch or
Speaker 1: an under your pillow alarm so that you don't need
Speaker 1: to have a huge alarm go off that wakes up
Speaker 1: the other person. So vibrating ones are really big, so
Speaker 1: people don't never heard of that. And then when do
Speaker 1: you sleep separate? If the person snoring and has gotten
Speaker 1: evaluated enough, get evaluated if you're snoring or having pauses
Speaker 1: and your breathing, or someone's a very restless sleeper, or
Speaker 1: you just are super light, get in bed before cuddle,
Speaker 1: have sex whatever, I don't care, and then when it's
Speaker 1: time to actually go to bed, if you both sleep
Speaker 1: better separately, sleep better separately, it will actually strengthen your relationship. Really,
Speaker 1: So okay, So if there's resentment, right right? If? Okay, Yes,
Speaker 1: I do have another couple friend who I feel so bad.
Speaker 1: She's such a light sleeper and if her husband ever
Speaker 1: wants to go out and hang with my husband or whatever,
Speaker 1: God forbid, he comes into the bed and wakes her up.
Speaker 1: He's in the biggest, fattest trouble of all time, Like
Speaker 1: he's a fucking child. And I'm like, this is not
Speaker 1: good for either of you. He wants to have some
Speaker 1: sort of social life, have some sort of companionship with
Speaker 1: guy friends, and she wants to get her sleep. Both
Speaker 1: are completely valid, um, And he's like terrified, like I
Speaker 1: can't go because she'll be asleep and I can't come in.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my god, this is ridiculous. Sleep
Speaker 1: separate for those nights or you know, like there's a
Speaker 1: plan for everyone, And I think there's so much stigma
Speaker 1: about sleeping separately that it's so funny when I have patience,
Speaker 1: I'm like, just why don't you just you tried everything,
Speaker 1: they're still snoring even with having your appne and treated
Speaker 1: or whatever. Why don't you just sleep separately? And it's
Speaker 1: like freeing for them when I say that, because I'm
Speaker 1: a psychologist. So we still have sex, still cuddled, do
Speaker 1: all that stuff when it's not just like go to
Speaker 1: a separate interesting. Yeah, there is a stigma touch because
Speaker 1: you even say it, and I say, oh, marriage is
Speaker 1: in the toilet, like you know, you hear those the
Speaker 1: little kids being like, well my mommy and daddy sleep
Speaker 1: in separate rooms, and you're like, oh, ship, trouble and paradise.
Speaker 1: So let's change that conversation, right, So why is sleep important?
Speaker 1: How does it help you with your emotion regulation, help
Speaker 1: you feel stronger and closer as a couple, So all
Speaker 1: those things are really important as well. And it doesn't
Speaker 1: just sleeping apart doesn't mean that they're having about relationship.
Speaker 1: So I actually encourage people to talk with their kids
Speaker 1: about it very openly and how sleep is super important
Speaker 1: for emotional health and physical health so that they can
Speaker 1: be together as a couple for longer. You're featured in
Speaker 1: a number of Headspace videos shout out Headspace, I love
Speaker 1: it where you talk more about getting enough sleep, exercise,
Speaker 1: writing things down, taking bads, meditations, or some of the
Speaker 1: recommendations you had to help people wind down. Can you
Speaker 1: take us through these tips and tricks that we talked about, Like,
Speaker 1: are you like big on like no screens ten or
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes before? Are you big into white sound? Tell
Speaker 1: me yeah. So I think there's different classes of how
Speaker 1: you have to think about sleep issues. Right, If you're
Speaker 1: someone who has an occasional bad night here and there,
Speaker 1: you might not likely meet the criteria for chronic insomnia.
Speaker 1: So that's a whole other thing. But I think in general,
Speaker 1: I don't have an issue with white noise. I actually,
Speaker 1: for a long time slept with white noise because it
Speaker 1: was moving houses and I was in a temporary apartment
Speaker 1: and we were near our highway. So white noise is
Speaker 1: perfect and some people just like that noise in the background,
Speaker 1: no problem with it. The thing that you have to
Speaker 1: think about, though, is that you might get addicted to
Speaker 1: needing that noise to sleep. So I noticed when I
Speaker 1: moved to my permanent house was very quiet. I couldn't
Speaker 1: sleep without the noise. So if you're going to introduce it,
Speaker 1: just know that you might need it when you go away,
Speaker 1: you go to a hotel or something that you might
Speaker 1: have to bring white noise with you. Um, but I screens,
Speaker 1: so there's a lot of Like, for a long time,
Speaker 1: we would say in the field, don't look at blue
Speaker 1: light before bed because it messes with your melotone in
Speaker 1: production and it makes you not be able to get
Speaker 1: a sleepy Some people are actually debating that more and
Speaker 1: more now and research, and that's okay. The screens are
Speaker 1: not necessarily the devil. What I think becomes the problem
Speaker 1: is the all the stuff that we're watching. So this
Speaker 1: is where that mom saw me that like, I'm not
Speaker 1: going to bed because I want the time for myself
Speaker 1: kind of thing. We're binge watching things, we're stum scrolling,
Speaker 1: we're on Instagram until like, and that's the stuff I
Speaker 1: think that gets people sucked in and not going to
Speaker 1: sleep earlier for that reason. That's what it is for me,
Speaker 1: for sure. It is not the blue light for me.
Speaker 1: It's that I'm rebelling against. This is my only time
Speaker 1: to me and so I'm gonna watch these shows or
Speaker 1: just mindlessly scroll Instagram or whatever, and all of a
Speaker 1: sudden I look over and it's one o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 1: and why did I do that? Yeah, you know, it
Speaker 1: feels great in the moment, but it's the long term
Speaker 1: pain that ends up causing over and over again. And
Speaker 1: I think that's how people need to start thinking about it.
Speaker 1: When it comes to that mom Sambie or revenge bedtime.
Speaker 1: There's a whole bunch of you know, thoughts on it,
Speaker 1: but you really need to try and at least set
Speaker 1: a timer for yourself something to remind yourself of why
Speaker 1: you should be going to a little bit earlier. I
Speaker 1: do that for myself because I get in the human being,
Speaker 1: I get caught and all that stuff too. Oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: I could watch Netflix all day long. So I am
Speaker 1: set an alarm, and on my alarm, I also put
Speaker 1: a label of what's my reason why? So I'm I
Speaker 1: need to go to bed because it will make me
Speaker 1: a better mom, it will make me better at my job, whatever.
Speaker 1: I have a label to remind me of why I'm
Speaker 1: doing it, not just like you don't need to go
Speaker 1: to bed kind of thing. And then the other thing
Speaker 1: I do is I put on I turn off the
Speaker 1: auto play on like Netflix or anything. If it keeps going,
Speaker 1: it goes from show to show to show, So I
Speaker 1: just have that setting off, So I have to make
Speaker 1: a conscious decision at the end of every show if
Speaker 1: I want to choose sleep or TV. Okay, what about
Speaker 1: people who I think a lot of this conversation has
Speaker 1: been about going to sleep. What about the people who
Speaker 1: wake up all throughout the night? This is big for moms.
Speaker 1: You thought you heard a baby cry? Phantom cries? Like
Speaker 1: nobody business? Did I hear something like? We were talking
Speaker 1: about that era at how? And then you're up. Now
Speaker 1: you've gone to the bathroom. Now your brain is racing,
Speaker 1: what the hell? What are what do we do? So
Speaker 1: if that's happening routinely, so at least three or more
Speaker 1: times a week for a few months, that's and like
Speaker 1: baby sleeping, fine, there's no other identifiable trigger that you
Speaker 1: need to work on. Then that's when it's actually now
Speaker 1: crossed over into the insomnia around or even like if
Speaker 1: you're avoiding screens before bed or all that, and you
Speaker 1: still can't fall asleep routinely despite doing all the basic
Speaker 1: sleep hygiene stuff. That's when you want to start thinking
Speaker 1: about something called cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia. So it
Speaker 1: takes the basic sleep hygiene, but sometimes we actually change
Speaker 1: people's bed times, so it's kind of goes against what
Speaker 1: we were just saying a little bit more or earlier.
Speaker 1: But sometimes if people are waking up a lot in
Speaker 1: the middle of the night and they're very active in
Speaker 1: their minds are activated, I actually have people go to
Speaker 1: bed a lot later and wake up at the same
Speaker 1: time and not necessarily now, because that helps to deepen
Speaker 1: their sleep and it helps them to if they wake up,
Speaker 1: they fall back asleep a little bit faster. So I
Speaker 1: don't just necessarily say I don't willy, really go to
Speaker 1: bed a lot later. Look up CBT, FRIENDSLOM, any of
Speaker 1: the great apps out there. My book is a good example.
Speaker 1: You can work with someone like myself, but that actually
Speaker 1: can help to deepen sleep, and that's what we usually
Speaker 1: recommend if you're that kind of phantom listener or you're
Speaker 1: you wake up and you're worried or whatever else is
Speaker 1: going on, because you would rather people go to bed
Speaker 1: later and get more solid, connected hours, really quality. I
Speaker 1: think we get so focused on the quantity quality over quantity.
Speaker 1: I have patients that will sleep really well within awakening
Speaker 1: here and there, but they go back to sleep with
Speaker 1: six and a half hours versus eight hours of chunk
Speaker 1: chunk chunk chunk throughout the night. So we really work
Speaker 1: on doing that sort of stuff. And then it's also
Speaker 1: about targetting the worries, right, So some people will wake
Speaker 1: up worrying about anything and everything. I know, I've been there,
Speaker 1: and we talk about ways to do things before bed
Speaker 1: to do almost like a brain dump, to target some
Speaker 1: of those worries. Or we'll do things about what what
Speaker 1: are you doing in the middle and I are you
Speaker 1: like sitting there on your phone? Are you scrolling? Are
Speaker 1: you bad? Bad idea? So I have people get up
Speaker 1: and find other things to do in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night just to pass the time, because then if
Speaker 1: you start trying to force sleep to happen in the
Speaker 1: middle night, you're gonna make it worse. So we try
Speaker 1: to take the focus off it a little less time
Speaker 1: in bed, and I work with tailoring it very much
Speaker 1: to someone. It's a really effective treatment, and like I said,
Speaker 1: there are apps out there that can help some people
Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia bbt I. It is the
Speaker 1: gold standard treatment. So if you have someone that's like,
Speaker 1: we'll just take an ambient or take this, But they
Speaker 1: never mentioned cbt I, that actually is the thing that
Speaker 1: should be started first. Wow, why is eight hours the thing?
Speaker 1: It's not the thing that's the problem. So well, where
Speaker 1: the fund did this come from? Like? Why that is
Speaker 1: the beat of my existence? The eight hours? So it
Speaker 1: just comes from the majority of people need, meaning to
Speaker 1: feel well rested and refreshed throughout the day and have
Speaker 1: a little dip here and there, need between six and
Speaker 1: nine hours, So what's the middle seven and a half.
Speaker 1: It's easy to round it up to eight. That's where
Speaker 1: I get eight from. So I always tell people stop
Speaker 1: focusing on number eight. Paint to get in gold putting
Speaker 1: out a pedestal. If you're between six to nine and
Speaker 1: you feel well, arrested and refreshed with dips throughout the day,
Speaker 1: and good luck. I mean big a parent retired a lot, right,
Speaker 1: But if that's happening, don't you know, don't focus on
Speaker 1: the number. How does caffeine play into all of this?
Speaker 1: So caffeine. I love my caffeine like I have a
Speaker 1: big coffee here. You know, it's the sort of thing
Speaker 1: where it's fine to have a cup or two in
Speaker 1: the morning. I usually have people limited. Everyone's a little different.
Speaker 1: That's the problems we don't have like a good blood
Speaker 1: test to be like, you metabolize caffeine a lot faster,
Speaker 1: but usually it takes for most people about twelve hours
Speaker 1: for half of the coffee or caffeine to leave your body.
Speaker 1: So if you've had a big cup of coffee at noon,
Speaker 1: half of it has left your body by midnight. So
Speaker 1: it's okay at that point, but you know that little
Speaker 1: bit here and there in the afternoon starts to add up,
Speaker 1: and it does stay in our bodies for a long
Speaker 1: amount of time. And the older you get, the flower
Speaker 1: it takes to metabolize it. It's not fun. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: also to think about think about medications and stuff. So
Speaker 1: a lot of people take like headache medications and a
Speaker 1: lot of women and they have caffeine in them. So
Speaker 1: if you're not sure, ask your doctor if there's any
Speaker 1: caffeine in you really read those ingredients. People, Um, what
Speaker 1: tips do you have for people who are looking to
Speaker 1: get a good night's rest but are like working shifts? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's a harder one. It really depends on
Speaker 1: the shift. So I work with people a good amount
Speaker 1: to try and come up with tailored to sleep schedules.
Speaker 1: This is a good example of like try to have
Speaker 1: a protected environment so that someone's not coming in and out.
Speaker 1: So if you can try and have a protected, quiet, dark,
Speaker 1: cool environment. And then the other big thing is, you know,
Speaker 1: it depends on what kind of shifts. So if you
Speaker 1: have a stable shift, so we're always working night, for example,
Speaker 1: try not to then switch it completely to the day
Speaker 1: and the time that you have the days off. So
Speaker 1: a lot of people will like sleep during the day
Speaker 1: when they're working, and then they'll sleep at night to
Speaker 1: try and spend time with their family and friends. I
Speaker 1: totally appreciate that. It's wonderful an idea. Instead, maybe try
Speaker 1: to shift halfway, so sleep from four am to noon
Speaker 1: on your days off instead of at night to get
Speaker 1: the afternoons with him. So like a halfway shift is
Speaker 1: a little bit more gentle than totally reversing day and night.
Speaker 1: And then of course tell everyone when you're trying to sleep,
Speaker 1: make it, don't make appointments in the middle, like protect
Speaker 1: that time. Just like you would for anybody else who's
Speaker 1: sleeping in that time. Tell me about what you touched
Speaker 1: upon briefly, just now the temperature and the darkness. Okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: So I always say to keep your room like a
Speaker 1: pretty cave basically, so dark, quiet, cool and comfortable. Right,
Speaker 1: and you know, like if you're someone whose room is
Speaker 1: really cletter to give you a lot of anxiety, like
Speaker 1: maybe try to clean up a little bit so you
Speaker 1: feel more comfortable and relaxed in your room. But it
Speaker 1: really should be dark and not just like room darkening
Speaker 1: shades like pitch black is ideal, pitch act is ideal.
Speaker 1: What about a sleep mask. That's fine if you need
Speaker 1: a sleep mask, all for it. If you can get
Speaker 1: like life blocking shades completely for kids, it's super important.
Speaker 1: People don't often think about it, but we It's funny,
Speaker 1: we think about it for our kids a lot of times,
Speaker 1: and we do all these things for kids, but we
Speaker 1: don't do them for ourselves. I don't have them in
Speaker 1: my room. My kids have total blackout shades, a little
Speaker 1: bit of white noise, and I always keep it at
Speaker 1: sixty seven degrees, you know, and that's the ideal temperature.
Speaker 1: Oh great for sixties mid to upper sixties is kind
Speaker 1: of ideal for most people upwards of seventy two. But
Speaker 1: that's a little too warm in my opinion. But it's funny,
Speaker 1: like we talk about wine down, relaxing, non stimulating activity
Speaker 1: for our kids. It's not like you all of a
Speaker 1: sudden hit eight teaming. You not grow that stuff. We
Speaker 1: still need that stuff in our lives. So why do
Speaker 1: we think my room I don't have darkening shades. I
Speaker 1: can't do seventy two. If I'm sharing the bed with Adam,
Speaker 1: I'm so hot I want to kill someone. Um, we
Speaker 1: do have a little We travel with our white noise.
Speaker 1: I do too. I do the same thing. But honestly,
Speaker 1: the white noise was a big help for me, um
Speaker 1: in stopping thinking that I'm hearing my children. The other
Speaker 1: thing I talked to a lot of women about which
Speaker 1: I'm curious about, is when to turn off the monitor.
Speaker 1: I get so many moms friends whose child is one
Speaker 1: and a half and the monitor is still right next
Speaker 1: to their head, and I'm like, listen to me. The
Speaker 1: baby's got a full vocal box. If something is wrong,
Speaker 1: you will hear it because they scream very loudly. Anything
Speaker 1: else shy of that is not your business. Tell me
Speaker 1: if I'm not a doctor, I but I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: so they let out a sound because they let out
Speaker 1: a fart, like whatever, it's not your business, and then
Speaker 1: that ship wakes you up and then you can't get
Speaker 1: back to sleep. So like, I have to convince myself
Speaker 1: the baby is in a crib that is safe, that
Speaker 1: does not have anything in it unless they are at
Speaker 1: of the appropriate age where your pediatrician has it is
Speaker 1: safe to do. So, um, that my monitor is off.
Speaker 1: But I think a lot of women struggle with anxiety
Speaker 1: and mom guilt about turning that monitor off and feeling
Speaker 1: this need to know every single's peep and sound, and
Speaker 1: like my son full on screams and has conversations and
Speaker 1: is sleep talking, and I'm like, I don't want to know.
Speaker 1: He will scream mommy at the top of his lungs
Speaker 1: multiple times over if he needs me, and so will she. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's exactly it. And I think the thing is that
Speaker 1: there's a few few things to impact. So the first
Speaker 1: thing is the monitor. So I often will recommend start
Speaker 1: with the monitor if you're being even if it's a
Speaker 1: younger baby, like they're crying, you can hear them. If
Speaker 1: it's too anxiety rising to turn it all the way off,
Speaker 1: turn it halfway. Like, no one needs the monitor full strength.
Speaker 1: You don't need the full vine, so turn it down
Speaker 1: and then you can gradually turn it down lower. Now
Speaker 1: the bigger thing I think also is that babies what
Speaker 1: babies are noisy? They just are noisy, and I think
Speaker 1: we have to accept that, not a renoys. Like you
Speaker 1: were saying, it's necessarily distressing call for you, so turn
Speaker 1: the volume down. The other thing that's a bigger problem though,
Speaker 1: is a lot of them, the like self monitor things
Speaker 1: that will have the alarm go off to tell you
Speaker 1: something's wrong. The new pediatric skandlines have come out saying
Speaker 1: try not to use those things. Actually prefer people not
Speaker 1: using it because they feel like then people get kind
Speaker 1: of lucy goosey about the betting environment and they can
Speaker 1: have the nice crib betting because and they'll have something exactly.
Speaker 1: So I actually tell if you're an anxious person to
Speaker 1: begin with espect. Now that the guidance have come out
Speaker 1: and kind of pushing against it, that's great, But in
Speaker 1: the past, if you have one trying not to use it,
Speaker 1: if you tend to be anxious because there's a lot
Speaker 1: of false alarms, and I think it just makes parents
Speaker 1: sleep way worse than any gain that you get from it,
Speaker 1: which makes you a worse parent sleep. This is such
Speaker 1: an important episode because for me, sleep is directly related
Speaker 1: to how I parent and how I am in my
Speaker 1: relationship to add at a certain point, I remember with
Speaker 1: both of my children, I chose me and my sleep
Speaker 1: over them, and it was the moment I turned off
Speaker 1: the monitor and I was like, good luck, fend for yourselves.
Speaker 1: I've put you in a safe space. Like my daughter's
Speaker 1: crib is her safe space. My son's room is his
Speaker 1: safe space. He is safe in there, there's nothing in
Speaker 1: there that could hurt him. And I have to go
Speaker 1: to bed and like su And I remember going on
Speaker 1: my first like vacation with Albie when he was little,
Speaker 1: and I brought the monitor and everything and and we
Speaker 1: were somewhere it was it's I love my monitor so much.
Speaker 1: It's the nanot But they it didn't work in the WiFi.
Speaker 1: And I was like, what do I do? And my
Speaker 1: mom was like, you could just do which what we did,
Speaker 1: which is you just listen and if you hear something
Speaker 1: that's really loud, you go in otherwise it's fine. And
Speaker 1: I was like, oh ship, I can do that. So
Speaker 1: for all the moms listening, this is your permission to
Speaker 1: choose your sleep over. And I'm preaching what I've learned,
Speaker 1: which is just I had to really prioritize my mental health,
Speaker 1: which is directly related to my sleep over. Fucking studying
Speaker 1: that monitor all night long, which all these women are doing.
Speaker 1: It's awful. And the guy and your spouse is not.
Speaker 1: I got news for you, Like it's it was, it's
Speaker 1: right next to my head. My husband doesn't hear anything.
Speaker 1: And people will come with like print outs of what
Speaker 1: time baby was possibly awake or sleep or all this, Like,
Speaker 1: how is this helping you to change anything that you're doing.
Speaker 1: It's not. It's just making even more anxious about it.
Speaker 1: There's there's a more net, like you can track things
Speaker 1: on a piece of paper and you can do it.
Speaker 1: Like it's just the constant data sometimes just makes us
Speaker 1: more anxious and we have to be aware of that.
Speaker 1: I'm also going to say something that's very controversial. I
Speaker 1: I feel really bad that the American Academy of Pediatrics
Speaker 1: recommends that the kid sleeps in your room now for
Speaker 1: like a year, like why six months? Six months? But
Speaker 1: but I would tell you that the sleep field itself
Speaker 1: was not loving the year officially because it was you know,
Speaker 1: there's a point where parents sleep also has to be
Speaker 1: prioritized to. Yeah, and I also think of babies, like
Speaker 1: you said, they make a lot of like like they're
Speaker 1: working out of fart, their digestive systems coming on track,
Speaker 1: it's vocal, they're they're taking a crap, whatever it is.
Speaker 1: But it's like if that's in your room for that
Speaker 1: extended amount of time, Like obviously everyone's got to make
Speaker 1: whatever personal choices and whatever their pediatrician recommends. But for me,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to say it here, folks, my neither
Speaker 1: of my kids ever slept in my room. And and
Speaker 1: that worked for us. Like I had the monitor, I
Speaker 1: wanted them to love their crib. I wanted them to
Speaker 1: love their room, and I it wasn't actually until I
Speaker 1: had a night nurse, Alexandra Latin, who was actually on
Speaker 1: this podcast. She's Dutch, and she was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: the babies going the crib like immediately in other country,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, and then there are countries where
Speaker 1: I'm sure the babies are like in the beds with
Speaker 1: the mommy. So look, there's no right or wrong, but
Speaker 1: we're here to tell you prioritize your sleep, in your
Speaker 1: sanity if you're if you're not doing well, I was
Speaker 1: not doing and it's yeah, it's a conversation to have
Speaker 1: with your pediatrician for sure. If you're suffering and your
Speaker 1: baby is now at the point where really the risk
Speaker 1: of they're flipping over on their own and the risk
Speaker 1: of sins is significantly reduced, that is a discussion to
Speaker 1: have with your pediatrician because it will be I keep
Speaker 1: saying freeing, but that shame. Guidelines are there for a reason,
Speaker 1: but you have to really tailor to whatever situation you're
Speaker 1: going through and talk with your doctor for sure. Um,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for all of your advice. It's
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. Do you have any tips on us following
Speaker 1: through with such steps to help hold ourselves accountable? How
Speaker 1: do we hold ourselves accountable? Win a week is like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a week where I set a timer
Speaker 1: for Netflix, or I'm gonna do a week where I'm
Speaker 1: really careful walking in the rooms so I don't wake
Speaker 1: up the person. How do you fucking sustain this? I
Speaker 1: think that mom groups are great if you have mom
Speaker 1: friends or friends who are parents in the same boat
Speaker 1: to all really try and say, you know what, I
Speaker 1: really need to make this more of a priority to
Speaker 1: have that kind of support. Sometimes if you're asking your
Speaker 1: significant other to like call you add on it, then
Speaker 1: it causes more relationship problems, I think. But I also
Speaker 1: think you know, like just to think about your why
Speaker 1: over and over again. And I always encourage people. The
Speaker 1: biggest tip that I always give people is to just
Speaker 1: give two weeks to it. So say, Okay, I'm gonna
Speaker 1: cut a firm bedtime where I'm gonna turn off all
Speaker 1: the internet, I'm gonna do all this stuff. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: try and make sleep propriety, or I'm gonna work on
Speaker 1: whatever insomnia I have. And if you don't see gains
Speaker 1: after two weeks and how you feel during the day, okay, fine,
Speaker 1: But a two week effort you might you will likely
Speaker 1: see some some gains. So if you can commit two weeks,
Speaker 1: you'll you'll get more motivation a long run. Love that
Speaker 1: Any final things you've learned about momsomnia that no one
Speaker 1: told you about, or that you wish you had known. Well,
Speaker 1: I think people weren't talking about that mom somnia aspect,
Speaker 1: but like just trying to take back time for yourself
Speaker 1: at night. And I'm glad that people are talking about
Speaker 1: it now, but I think still people are just not
Speaker 1: always thinking about how it's affecting them. I think the
Speaker 1: biggest thing is if you're someone who has insomnia where
Speaker 1: you just can't sleep, no how or how hard you try,
Speaker 1: really get that addressed. See a professional, look at the apps, books, whatever,
Speaker 1: because it can increase the risk of postpartum depression. So
Speaker 1: really make sleep that four hour chunk of priorities best
Speaker 1: you can. Because people weren't talking about that for a
Speaker 1: long time. What is the title of your book? One
Speaker 1: more time? The Women's got to overcoming insomnia get a
Speaker 1: good night's sleep without relying on medication. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: that's so great, because that's the other thing too. I'm
Speaker 1: sorry to interrupted a lot of I see. The other
Speaker 1: thing that made me really interested in this age range
Speaker 1: or with women, is that a lot of women would
Speaker 1: say I have terrible sleep. I'm zomniac. I can't but
Speaker 1: I don't want to take the sleeping pills because I
Speaker 1: want to hear my child if they wake up at night.
Speaker 1: So to work on women sleeping better without relying on
Speaker 1: medication was one of the biggest things that made me
Speaker 1: really start doing this. Talk to me about melatonin, h
Speaker 1: I could talk for days on it. So melatonin for
Speaker 1: UM in the US, it's not regulated by the FDA,
Speaker 1: so what you get is kind of you're just it's
Speaker 1: a little bit of a crapshoot based on the brand
Speaker 1: in the variety, and you we look for things that
Speaker 1: are USP certified, so you know that another group has
Speaker 1: looked at it and said, what's in the bottles in
Speaker 1: the bottle, but it's not really the cure all for
Speaker 1: insomnia that most people think it is. So the majority
Speaker 1: of people will come to me, I've tried melotonin. It
Speaker 1: doesn't really do that much. It's not without side effects,
Speaker 1: so it does help some people, not everyone, though. It
Speaker 1: can make people more groggy, nauseous, cause vivid dreams and
Speaker 1: nightmares and a lot of people so if you're taking
Speaker 1: you dreams that might or vivid dreams, that might be why.
Speaker 1: And we do use it for certain things, but we
Speaker 1: don't use it all that off In for insomnia. And
Speaker 1: also if you're taking more than three milligrams to five
Speaker 1: milligrams max, you're taking way too much. So a lot
Speaker 1: of people I see take ten milligrams no way, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh. Interesting. What about magnesium? Magnesium has even less
Speaker 1: research by it. But I do find magnesium. I use
Speaker 1: it a lot for myself because I get leg cramps
Speaker 1: from from running. I do find it's helpful for leg
Speaker 1: cramps um and it does calm and chill some people
Speaker 1: out and help some people sleep. But again, it's not
Speaker 1: that if it was as simple as melodonnan in magnesium,
Speaker 1: we wouldn't have insomnia now. So if it helps you, great,
Speaker 1: make sure your doctor's okay with it, but don't just
Speaker 1: keep taking more and more and more hoping that will work.
Speaker 1: Over the counter is not necessarily without side effects. Finish
Speaker 1: this sentence. Parenthood is a roller coaster. Like it. Parenthood
Speaker 1: is a freaking roller coaster, and you will feel much
Speaker 1: better about it all if you get some quality as sleep.
Speaker 1: And guess what, guys, that might not be eight hours
Speaker 1: for you, because I really like seven. I'm not gonna
Speaker 1: lie that that last hour. I'm just like frustrated, Like
Speaker 1: this doesn't do anything for me if it's And there's
Speaker 1: some people actually saying that seven might be better than
Speaker 1: eight for a lot of people. So yeah, Dr Shelby Harris,
Speaker 1: this was so brilliant, so helpful. I hope that we
Speaker 1: can give the gift of sleep to any of the
Speaker 1: moms who have listened here to pick up any tips
Speaker 1: or tricks or pre planning to help them. Sleep is
Speaker 1: so important, and we do not as the moms we are,
Speaker 1: and the mom guilt and being the martyrs and all
Speaker 1: of that, we don't put enough attention that a good
Speaker 1: night's sleep or two can really change your outlook, perspective,
Speaker 1: and experience of motherhood. Truly. So y'all listening, go get
Speaker 1: a good night's sleep. Please go get Dr Shelby Harris's
Speaker 1: book Recommended to any friends and new moms and not
Speaker 1: new moms who are having sleep issues CBT, insomnia CBT.
Speaker 1: I Oh my god, I learned so much. Thank you
Speaker 1: guys so much for listening to today's episode. I want
Speaker 1: to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns. Let
Speaker 1: me know. You can always find me at Katie's Crib
Speaker 1: at Shanda land dot com. Katie's Crib is a production
Speaker 1: of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shandoland Audio, visit the I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your
Speaker 1: favorite shows.