WEBVTT - Surviving “Momsomnia” w/ Dr. Shelby Harris 0:00:02.200 --> 0:00:05.040 Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:10.840 in partnership with I Heart Radio. Is there any realness 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:13.800 to the phrase sleep when the baby sleeps. I mean, 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:15.440 I have a twelve year old and a six year old, 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:17.919 and I still remember it to this day, what it 0:00:18.000 --> 0:00:20.319 was like. It would be lovely. If you can sleep 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:22.840 when your baby sleeps, that's great. If you can do it. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:25.280 I never was able to do it. We were talking 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:27.360 about keeping an ear out. That's what I always did. 0:00:27.400 --> 0:00:29.120 Even if I went to sleep and I had someone 0:00:29.160 --> 0:00:31.560 else watching, I was just hard wired to be listening 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:34.720 for whatever would be happening. So if you can rest, 0:00:34.880 --> 0:00:38.159 that's ideal. It's more about prioritizing what I mean, Like, 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.519 I know there were times when my kids would nap, 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:42.040 wo be like, I gotta go and wash the bottles, 0:00:42.040 --> 0:00:44.120 I gotta go to this. Does that stuff really need 0:00:44.159 --> 0:00:54.800 to happen in that moment? Maybe you can just rest. Hillo, everybody, 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.840 Welcome back to Katie's Crib. We are here today with 0:00:57.960 --> 0:01:04.080 Dr Shelby Harris talking about momsomnia. Sleep is such a 0:01:04.120 --> 0:01:06.400 huge thing. Normally, I've done so many episodes about the 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:09.880 baby sleeping, about the toddler sleep schedule. All of this crap. 0:01:10.080 --> 0:01:15.200 No one is talking about my sleep. So let me 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:16.880 tell you a little bit about our guest today. Dr 0:01:16.959 --> 0:01:20.520 Harris is has a private practice in White Plains, New York, 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:23.560 very close to where I'm from. She specializes in the 0:01:23.680 --> 0:01:27.800 use of cognitive behavior therapy otherwise known as CBT for 0:01:27.880 --> 0:01:31.120 anxiety and depression. She's also the author of the Women's 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:35.560 Guide to Overcoming Insomnia, a roadmap for those who experience 0:01:35.640 --> 0:01:39.559 anything from occasional bad nights to chronic insomnia. She's Board 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:43.160 certified in Behavioral Sleep Medicine BSM by the American Academy 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:45.520 of Sleep Medicine in trees a wide variety of sleep disorders, 0:01:45.520 --> 0:01:50.639 including insomnia, using evidence based, non pharmacological treatments. Dr Harris 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:54.120 has been invited columnist for New York Times for Dr 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.760 Oz's website You Beauty for Psychology Today. She's frequently quoted 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:00.440 in the media, like in The Freaking New York Times 0:02:00.440 --> 0:02:02.800 and huff Post and The New Yorker. She's appeared on 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.240 a Freaking Today Show, World News, Diet Sawyer, Good Morning America. 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:11.680 The list goes on. So whatever she's qualified. Dr Shelby 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:14.120 Harris Thank you so much for coming onto Katie's crib. 0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:19.720 Thank you. She's very qualified to be talking about this. 0:02:20.200 --> 0:02:22.120 Let's start at the beginning. How did you get into 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.960 sleep psychology? So I took a year before going to 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:28.600 graduate school and I worked in a medical school at 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.040 Brown University where I went front undergrad and I was 0:02:31.080 --> 0:02:34.480 doing research in people who had addictions, and I was 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.320 going into rehabs and it was for alcohol addiction, and 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:41.800 the study was looking at treating sleep problems, insomnia and 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.160 people who were in early recovery, because a lot of 0:02:44.160 --> 0:02:47.200 times people relapse because they're not sleeping. And what we 0:02:47.320 --> 0:02:51.320 found was getting people to sleep better actually helped to 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:54.760 reduce the rates of relapse. And that to me was 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:59.440 groundbreaking and eye opening to see that how many things 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:01.880 could really be changed just by getting some good nights 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.320 of sleep if it's any sort of addiction issue. But 0:03:04.360 --> 0:03:07.080 then mood, it's sleep is such a fundamental that it 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:08.720 really made me start thinking about how I want to 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:12.320 study it more and more in my life. Amazing, I 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:16.520 already have eight thousand questions. Okay, you described in the 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:20.640 NYT Parenting column that momsomnia is where a lot of 0:03:20.639 --> 0:03:24.840 moms and some dads, but mostly moms almost become hardwired 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:29.400 to listen for what are called sleep threats. Okay, every 0:03:29.440 --> 0:03:32.920 mom listening to this right now knows like if your 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:34.800 kid is about to cry, you like wake up two 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.160 minutes before, or like I can hear my kid open 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:40.600 his door and start walking down the hallway like in 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:43.640 advance every morning. It's so crazy, and even when the 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.040 threat is gone, they continue to have trouble with sleep 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:51.640 because we're so conditioned to keep listening. Can you tell 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:55.440 us more about why you took a particular interest in momsomnia. 0:03:55.960 --> 0:04:00.120 So when I was practicing for a long time and 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:03.360 I was approached about writing a book, I started to 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.280 They started to think, well, what area would you want 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.360 to meet, maybe more focus on. I realized that so 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.120 many of my patients were a women of all different 0:04:11.160 --> 0:04:15.120 age ranges, and I just noticed that women sleep, whether 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:17.360 it be mom ssomnie of like burning the candle at 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:20.440 both ends not making sleep a priority, or the other 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:24.560 thing is that insomnia of when people's kids, mom's kids 0:04:24.600 --> 0:04:26.719 start sleeping better, the babies just better. You still are 0:04:26.800 --> 0:04:29.280 keeping an ear out and you start to have insomnia. 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:31.240 That was just a fascinating are and I mean that 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:33.800 people years ago we're talking about I'm so glad that 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:36.080 it's really now taken off and people are talking about it. 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:39.920 Women sleep just has not been focused on until recently. 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:43.239 So now there's you know, new moms and perimenopause and menopause, 0:04:43.240 --> 0:04:46.920 and I'm so glad that we're talking about all this stuff. Wow. 0:04:47.080 --> 0:04:49.320 I mean, it does definitely continue on. I mean I 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:51.040 definitely feel like before and a half year old, I 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:54.960 feel like I haven't slept in I've always been a 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:59.800 great sleeper, and it was my first foray into insomnia 0:04:59.839 --> 0:05:03.320 and sleep issues during pregnancy, you know, like that's my 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.360 first time like going to the bathroom constantly being so 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:09.599 physically uncomfortable that you can't switch positions, you can't sleep 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.440 on your stomach, and then it translates into the first 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:15.120 three months, which are basically just hell in a handbag. 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.479 I had such bad postpartum depression with my daughter, and 0:05:18.560 --> 0:05:24.520 sometimes I think, had I slept, would it have been 0:05:24.560 --> 0:05:27.960 as bad? Probably, yes, But I don't know. I always 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.719 tell people, you know, sleep deprivation is a form of 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.720 torture in war times, and like that's what we're doing 0:05:33.760 --> 0:05:36.440 at the beginning. Do you deal with women who are 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:41.560 so um that are in the postpartum area, like more recent. Yeah, 0:05:41.760 --> 0:05:48.640 you know I did not make any sense. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:52.000 yeah totally. Yeah. The thing that I wish people would 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.480 talk about more when they're about to have the baby 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:58.599 is coming up with sleep plans based on your life, 0:05:59.040 --> 0:06:05.440 your help. You hopefully can have available conversations with your partner. 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:08.440 I some people have night nurses, some people don't. What 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:12.240 could a plan look like? So a plan could really 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.800 It really varies from family to family. So what I 0:06:14.839 --> 0:06:17.400 did was I and I was very I talked about 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:18.800 it on my Instagram account a lot. I had a 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.719 lot of trouble breastfeeding and I just could not produce anything. 0:06:22.080 --> 0:06:24.120 So we were we were bottle feeding and that's what 0:06:24.120 --> 0:06:27.279 we were just doing. So I took shifts with my husband. 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.599 So we made it very clear that he was going 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:32.080 to take the I think it was like nine to 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:35.799 two shift, and then I took from two to six 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.719 every day and we bottle fed. If you're someone who 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.520 is breastfeeding, you know that's something where if you're not 0:06:42.600 --> 0:06:45.559 bottle feeding, you could also think about having someone come 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:48.800 feeding or change the baby, do all the diaper, all 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.200 that sort of stuff and just hand to you if 0:06:51.200 --> 0:06:54.360 you're doing breastfeeding solely at night, so to really try 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:57.320 to get help when you can, and if you don't 0:06:57.360 --> 0:06:59.560 have a significant other to help with it at night, 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:02.039 then it's really about thinking about what can you do 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.120 during the day to get some rest here and there, um, 0:07:05.160 --> 0:07:09.560 But really thinking about what you're doing for feeding shifts 0:07:09.560 --> 0:07:11.160 that you're going to do, and where can you get 0:07:11.200 --> 0:07:14.720 some downtime naps or rest whatever you can during the day, 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.640 and asking for help. Don't assume that you should be 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:19.960 able to do it all yourself. That's the case. Yeah, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:24.200 that's really great. I I have to say, like people 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:25.720 are like, what does the night nurse do if you 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:27.840 are breastfeeding? And I was breastfeeding, and I have to 0:07:27.880 --> 0:07:32.560 say it was for us worth the money, um, because yes, 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:35.760 I would breastfeed for forty minutes, but she would, like 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:38.400 you said, do the diaper ring get that. I would 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:40.400 literally put the baby on my boob and then throw 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:42.840 the baby back at her and run to my bed 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.720 while she was rechanging the diaper, getting the baby back down. 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:49.280 All of these things that are like an additional twenty 0:07:49.360 --> 0:07:52.160 or thirty minutes that I didn't have to go through. 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.560 The Other thing is if a night nurse is not 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.360 in option for you, you know, Adam and I had 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:01.360 conversations where I was like, I'm going to breastfeed and 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:03.800 do this at night, but you're gonna do that. I'm 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.360 gonna pump enough for a bottle, you know, for the 0:08:06.400 --> 0:08:08.440 ten pm feed, and I'm going to go to bed 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:10.760 right at eight o'clock and I'll be up at two 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:14.640 or three. But there was a real understanding between us 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.560 that if he's going to be getting the better quality, 0:08:17.600 --> 0:08:20.800 longer sleep at night, it's so that he can really 0:08:20.840 --> 0:08:22.520 fucking pull it out in the day, do you know 0:08:22.520 --> 0:08:25.760 what I mean? Like I was like, oh, if I'm 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.800 going to be taking the night shifts, the brunt of 0:08:28.880 --> 0:08:32.960 them for these months, like that means that you're really 0:08:33.000 --> 0:08:35.439 getting a good six hours at night, you're gonna need 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:39.640 to deliver in the daytime. And he did good, good, 0:08:40.040 --> 0:08:42.199 But you see, like all that stuff is the conversation, 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.480 like you can't predict what's going to happen, but you 0:08:44.520 --> 0:08:47.959 can try and be as prepared as possible beforehand. And 0:08:48.240 --> 0:08:50.160 like I had prepared, I had planned to breastfeed, and 0:08:50.160 --> 0:08:51.760 I couldn't do it like there's all those things that 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.360 can happen, but try to come up with as many 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:58.920 options that you can in advance, because when you're sleep deprived, 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:02.160 when you're thinking about key being a child alive, that's 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:04.480 not the time to necessarily problem solve how you're going 0:09:04.520 --> 0:09:07.000 to work as a team. So to really be proactive 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:10.120 is going to pay off big time. That's such a 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:13.160 great tip because I have to tell you most of 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.840 my couple's friends, the big gass knockdown, drag out fights 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:19.679 and the way they've treated each other like they've never 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:21.640 done before, happened in the middle of the night where 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.880 it's like they're not even because you're not dealing with 0:09:24.960 --> 0:09:29.720 like a stable personal the rational mind I was says, 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:31.559 the rational mind is not there two in the morning. 0:09:31.600 --> 0:09:34.679 It just doesn't And you're like, go to sleep, Why 0:09:34.720 --> 0:09:37.920 won't my baby sleep? And it's just frustration and anger 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:40.040 and it's just is not the time to problem solve 0:09:40.080 --> 0:09:42.400 all that. Granted, baby, it's gonna throw you a million 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:45.120 different things. You're not gonna know what exactly is gonna happen. 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.839 You can't plan for everything, but to have some framework 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:50.400 of trying to protect some time for sleep. And what 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:54.400 you're talking about with postpartum depression, we actually see all 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.080 the time and um and and it's been proven in 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.560 research that if you don't dedicate a block for at 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:04.800 least four hours of protected sleep, what we find actually 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:07.400 starts to happen is that if you had a prior 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:10.120 history of depression or anxiety, you're actually at a greater 0:10:10.200 --> 0:10:13.480 risk of developing postpartum depression or anxiety. So we really, 0:10:13.520 --> 0:10:15.400 I really want people to start thinking about it when 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:18.440 they're pregnant, of game plans of what you can do 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.560 to try and get four hours. That's all I'm asking 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:24.880 for of a protected sleep period. Why is four hours 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.160 the magic number? It's just what we found in research. 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:32.480 It's enough to be um protective and restorative somewhat. So 0:10:32.559 --> 0:10:36.520 you're getting enough sleep cycles of ram deep sleep to 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:39.160 be restorative enough that then you can make up for 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:40.560 it a little bit with naps here and there if 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.040 you need to. When you first get home, I think 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:47.080 most people are riding high from the endorphins and the 0:10:47.160 --> 0:10:49.840 serotonin and all of these things. So to be waking 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:52.000 up every hour to two hours to feed a baby, 0:10:52.040 --> 0:10:55.160 whether that to be a bottle or breast you're kind 0:10:55.160 --> 0:10:57.440 of still riding this high of like we did it, 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:00.679 this is new, all of this, and then whenever that 0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.600 fades for people and you realize, oh no, this is 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.680 what it is like, you're going to be waking up 0:11:06.720 --> 0:11:10.000 like this. That's when I I felt like, oh, I'm 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:12.880 going to be institutionalized, Like I'm going to lose my 0:11:12.920 --> 0:11:16.480 fucking mind. I can't do this anymore. I felt like 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:19.320 it was like just absolutely dangerous. So I love the 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:24.000 idea of making a sleep plan in pregnancy of how 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:28.199 you and your support system can protect some sort of 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:31.959 sleep for yourself because we're so focused on the baby, right, 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:33.679 how are you going to feed your baby? How are 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:35.600 you where's your baby going to sleep? All that stuff 0:11:35.640 --> 0:11:38.280 that we get lost in the whole thing that I 0:11:38.320 --> 0:11:41.679 think really thinking if you have a family unit or 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:46.000 mom parent, whoever it is, if the baby is sleeping, well, 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:47.920 the parents are gonna sleep off. The parents are sleeping, well, 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.120 it's going to help the baby. Also understanding what normal 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.720 is right people often, I mean I have people contact 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.800 me like, three weeks postpartum, how can I sleep my training, 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.000 sleep train my baby? That's not how many really, that's 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.359 not how it works so it's really also having expectations 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:06.240 of what it should look like and then trying to 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:09.920 work your world around how baby sleep is going to 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.160 be so you can protect some time too. Is there 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.679 any realness to the phrase sleep when the baby sleeps, 0:12:19.000 --> 0:12:21.400 which is the thing that everyone tells you, and I'm like, 0:12:21.559 --> 0:12:24.640 what their naps during the day like? Is that when 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:26.800 you're supposed to be like running to your bed and 0:12:26.880 --> 0:12:30.199 praying that you can convince yourself to fall asleep or 0:12:30.240 --> 0:12:32.480 if not, just rest right. I mean, I have a 0:12:32.480 --> 0:12:34.240 twelve year old and a six year old and I 0:12:34.320 --> 0:12:36.720 still remember it to this day what it was like. 0:12:37.240 --> 0:12:38.960 It would be lovely. If you can sleep when your 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:41.920 baby sleeps, that's great. If you can do it. I 0:12:41.960 --> 0:12:43.920 never was able to do it. We were talking about 0:12:44.000 --> 0:12:46.000 keeping an ear out. That's what I always did. Even 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.040 if I went to sleep and I had someone else watching, 0:12:48.040 --> 0:12:51.000 I was just hard wired to be listening for whatever 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.840 would be happening. So if you can rest, that's ideal. 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:56.880 It's more about prioritizing, what I mean, Like, I know 0:12:57.160 --> 0:12:59.240 there were times when my kids would nap, wo be like, 0:12:59.280 --> 0:13:00.839 I gotta go and wash the bottles, I gotta go 0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.520 to does that stuff really need to happen in that moment, 0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:06.240 Maybe you can just rest, because then if you start 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:08.640 pretty sleep on that pedestal when the naps are supposed 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:11.240 to happen, you're gonna make it worse for yourself. Just rest, 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.679 that's the key. Yeah. And also I like that point, 0:13:14.760 --> 0:13:18.160 which is I think a lot of moms that whole 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.480 sleep when the baby's sleeping, they run to their bed 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.440 and sleep isn't achievable because they can't stop their mind. 0:13:23.480 --> 0:13:26.160 And then they start racing even more because they're not 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.079 sleeping and they're looking at the clock knowing that the 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:29.960 baby is gonna wake up soon. And now you're just 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:32.559 nothing but frustrated and anxious that you didn't get sleep. 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:35.200 So really, the goal should just be to lay flat 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.679 on your back, close your eyes in deep breathe, chill, 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.440 just chill. Find something to do to decompress. That's the goal. 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:45.439 So and if you sleep extra benefit, wonderful, But don't 0:13:45.559 --> 0:13:47.600 force it because the more you're forcing it, like you're 0:13:47.640 --> 0:13:50.559 saying that we're frustrated and anxious, you're gonna get find 0:13:50.679 --> 0:13:57.240 something that's relaxing. Psychology Today mentions a term called emotional labor, 0:13:58.040 --> 0:14:01.360 saying that it's the invisible will work to make others 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:05.240 feel cared for and comfortable. It has expanded into conversations 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:08.240 about gendered roles, which you know, women being expected to 0:14:08.280 --> 0:14:14.360 assume more empathetic responsiveness and caretaking. Can you explain how 0:14:14.400 --> 0:14:18.720 emotional labor and task management, how this impacts sleep, and 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:23.320 how in the fuck we reduce this? Come on? Good 0:14:23.400 --> 0:14:25.360 luck with that. I think it's a societal thing too, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:27.480 But I do see some waves. I mean it's a 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:32.640 huge desidal thing. I think there's waves changing of expectations. Right, 0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:36.240 so we lose ourselves when we're thinking about caring for 0:14:36.280 --> 0:14:39.200 everyone else. That that's those moments where you need to 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:41.440 say to yourself, Okay, the first thing is if you 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.760 can sleep, Like what what has to be done? Do 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:45.880 I have to do all these things for everyone else 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.880 before I go to bed, and to really think about 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:51.440 prioritizing what what I like to be done, what a 0:14:51.520 --> 0:14:53.320 society say that I need to have done? Do I 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:55.200 need to have a perfectly clean house? And he's someone 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.800 steps or comes over tomorrow unexpected, my in law has 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:00.440 come over. It's letting go of that stuff, letting go 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:03.520 of the expectations that you have for yourself and really 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:07.640 about prioritizing what needs to get done. Who do I 0:15:07.680 --> 0:15:10.040 need to be focusing on in this moment, What would 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.200 I'd like to get done? And what can wait for 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:14.160 a day or a week or whatever. And if you 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.400 think about it that way, what's the most pressing It 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:20.560 will help to take some of that pressure off yourself. 0:15:20.560 --> 0:15:23.160 I think, go to bed with the sink full of dishes, 0:15:23.280 --> 0:15:25.440 go to bed with a house that's messy. No one cares. 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:28.960 If you think that it matters, it doesn't. This has 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:32.640 been a huge learning curve for me what you're speaking 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.320 of right now. I've always kept a very O C 0:15:35.400 --> 0:15:41.960 D control oriented house and I have had to throw 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:45.120 a lot of that ship away to like read a book, 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:49.720 and I've had to like reconfigure how my brain space works. 0:15:49.840 --> 0:15:53.520 I'm a virgo. I love when ship looks pretty and organized. 0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:55.400 I have a very far Are you a virgo? Yep? 0:15:55.760 --> 0:16:03.400 Oh hilarious. I when's your birthday? September? So, but like 0:16:03.520 --> 0:16:06.560 I have a hard time doing anything if she doesn't 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:10.080 look right to my eye. And I have had to 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:14.560 really retrain myself of like not making the bed every 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:17.800 day because it just fell off the list. Or like 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:21.080 you said, leaving ship out in the living room, all 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.120 over the table, not cleaning up from dinner. On some 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.880 nights where I've just been like I'm done. I cannot. 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:29.440 I promised myself I would be in bed by nine o'clock. 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:33.120 I'm not doing it. And I have to say it's 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.880 been better. It's free, right. Yes, yes, My one of 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:40.920 my best friends said to me a few years ago, 0:16:41.000 --> 0:16:43.080 and this will stick with me forever, and I loved it. 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:45.920 I apologize because she was going to come over for 0:16:46.160 --> 0:16:48.360 just a quick drop off and I said, um, I 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:51.240 apologize my house as a mess. And she looked at 0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:53.840 me and said, you never need to apologize. You're a 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.000 busy mom. Your house is as it is. I will 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:58.400 not judge you for anything. And that to me, I 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.320 wish that we just said that to another right to 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.320 just be out and it was so free, just like 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.640 there's no expectations. I think COVID a little bit helped 0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:10.399 with that too for me of just like getting in 0:17:10.440 --> 0:17:12.120 the habit of like oh, no one was coming over. 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.439 I mean now we're like sort of opening back up. 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.520 And I've definitely been like, oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. 0:17:17.560 --> 0:17:20.000 We didn't like make the bed today, which like it's 0:17:20.119 --> 0:17:21.920 ingrained in me as a child. I mean, my mom 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:23.879 didn't let me go to school unless my bed was made. 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:27.000 But now I'm in a relationship, which we're going to 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:38.800 get into this question in a minute. What tips do 0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:42.960 you have? This is big on sleep for couples who 0:17:43.000 --> 0:17:45.600 get up at different times of the freaking day. They 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.840 share the same bed, they get in bed at different times. 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.080 I can count on two hands the amount of times 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:52.840 my husband and I have gone to sleep at the 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:55.080 same time and woken up at the same time. I 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:59.399 am so impressed at couples that do that. My sleep 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.080 is always in interrupted and so is his because he 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:04.480 comes into bed late. It wakes me up. Then I'm like, oh, 0:18:04.520 --> 0:18:07.720 I should pee, I go pee, I come back. I 0:18:07.760 --> 0:18:11.000 wake up really early with the kids. He's asleep. We're 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:13.840 on opposite schedules. What are your recommendations for that. I 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:17.280 am convinced that we should all be Lucy and DESI 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.720 and just be in two twin bens and like meet 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:23.359 up for sex. Like I, this is so ridiculous that 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:28.080 we should. You know, I agree with you. So the 0:18:28.119 --> 0:18:32.000 first thing is I think people have this old school. 0:18:32.640 --> 0:18:34.600 I think it's changing, but I mean some of my 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:36.600 older patients I've worked with have this idea of, like, 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:38.280 I have to go to bed at the same time 0:18:38.280 --> 0:18:41.679 as my spouse because for whatever we have to get up, 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:45.520 And there's this weird like association with being tied together, 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:50.720 sleep together, meeting a healthier relationship bs total bs. Oh, 0:18:50.760 --> 0:18:55.000 that's great to know everyone ever done that. I'm so glad. 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.560 Like if you go to like, everyone has different sleep schedules. 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:01.360 Some people are night at als, people are early versus. 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:03.480 My husband is much more of a night owl. I 0:19:03.720 --> 0:19:05.840 get up five fifteen in the morning. I go to 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:09.800 bed super early, and it's okay. It doesn't mean that 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.040 if you try to force one person to keep someone 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.960 else's sleep schedule, all that does is make more resentment 0:19:15.080 --> 0:19:18.720 in the relationship. So I try to encourage people to 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.359 know what your sleep schedule is. If you're content with 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:23.720 how you sleep, that's the thing. Like I work with 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:26.200 in slomnia patients sometimes and I'm changing their bedtimes and 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:28.280 wake times and sometimes it works out with what their 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:32.280 husband or spouses doing. That's fine, but don't try to 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:34.440 force it if it's not happening. Now. The other thing 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:36.360 that you were kind of hitting on is sleeping separately, 0:19:36.720 --> 0:19:40.160 So if well before that, if you if you have 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.440 to keep different times of sleep, like because of kids 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:46.040 or whatever, there's you know, there's also a little bit 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:49.600 of disrespect, like some people just lighter sleepers than other 0:19:49.880 --> 0:19:51.600 and that's it is what it is. You just have 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:53.520 to accept it and not be angry if someone comes 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:55.000 in and gets into bed unless you have like a 0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.159 California king and no one gets affected by it, but 0:19:58.240 --> 0:19:59.840 it just it might happen. But there's a bit of 0:19:59.880 --> 0:20:01.760 a discussion of okay, could you not turn on all 0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.120 the lights? Could you take out your clothes and advance 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:07.040 so you're not opening and being thought full about that stuff. 0:20:07.160 --> 0:20:09.760 And the one other thing I always recommend is vibrating 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.080 alarm clocks so you can get like a watch or 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:14.000 an under your pillow alarm so that you don't need 0:20:14.040 --> 0:20:15.679 to have a huge alarm go off that wakes up 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:18.720 the other person. So vibrating ones are really big, so 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:23.040 people don't never heard of that. And then when do 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:26.520 you sleep separate? If the person snoring and has gotten 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:30.160 evaluated enough, get evaluated if you're snoring or having pauses 0:20:30.200 --> 0:20:32.600 and your breathing, or someone's a very restless sleeper, or 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:36.919 you just are super light, get in bed before cuddle, 0:20:36.960 --> 0:20:38.880 have sex whatever, I don't care, and then when it's 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:40.760 time to actually go to bed, if you both sleep 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:46.119 better separately, sleep better separately, it will actually strengthen your relationship. Really, 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:51.240