1 00:00:02,200 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio 2 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:10,840 Speaker 1: in partnership with I Heart Radio. Is there any realness 3 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 1: to the phrase sleep when the baby sleeps. I mean, 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: I have a twelve year old and a six year old, 5 00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: and I still remember it to this day, what it 6 00:00:18,000 --> 00:00:20,319 Speaker 1: was like. It would be lovely. If you can sleep 7 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: when your baby sleeps, that's great. If you can do it. 8 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 1: I never was able to do it. We were talking 9 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: about keeping an ear out. That's what I always did. 10 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:29,120 Speaker 1: Even if I went to sleep and I had someone 11 00:00:29,160 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: else watching, I was just hard wired to be listening 12 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: for whatever would be happening. So if you can rest, 13 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:38,159 Speaker 1: that's ideal. It's more about prioritizing what I mean, Like, 14 00:00:38,200 --> 00:00:40,519 Speaker 1: I know there were times when my kids would nap, 15 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: wo be like, I gotta go and wash the bottles, 16 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: I gotta go to this. Does that stuff really need 17 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 1: to happen in that moment? Maybe you can just rest. Hillo, everybody, 18 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Katie's Crib. We are here today with 19 00:00:57,960 --> 00:01:04,080 Speaker 1: Dr Shelby Harris talking about momsomnia. Sleep is such a 20 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: huge thing. Normally, I've done so many episodes about the 21 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,880 Speaker 1: baby sleeping, about the toddler sleep schedule. All of this crap. 22 00:01:10,080 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: No one is talking about my sleep. So let me 23 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: tell you a little bit about our guest today. Dr 24 00:01:16,959 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 1: Harris is has a private practice in White Plains, New York, 25 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: very close to where I'm from. She specializes in the 26 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: use of cognitive behavior therapy otherwise known as CBT for 27 00:01:27,880 --> 00:01:31,120 Speaker 1: anxiety and depression. She's also the author of the Women's 28 00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 1: Guide to Overcoming Insomnia, a roadmap for those who experience 29 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:39,559 Speaker 1: anything from occasional bad nights to chronic insomnia. She's Board 30 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: certified in Behavioral Sleep Medicine BSM by the American Academy 31 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: of Sleep Medicine in trees a wide variety of sleep disorders, 32 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:50,639 Speaker 1: including insomnia, using evidence based, non pharmacological treatments. Dr Harris 33 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: has been invited columnist for New York Times for Dr 34 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: Oz's website You Beauty for Psychology Today. She's frequently quoted 35 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 1: in the media, like in The Freaking New York Times 36 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: and huff Post and The New Yorker. She's appeared on 37 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 1: a Freaking Today Show, World News, Diet Sawyer, Good Morning America. 38 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: The list goes on. So whatever she's qualified. Dr Shelby 39 00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: Harris Thank you so much for coming onto Katie's crib. 40 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: Thank you. She's very qualified to be talking about this. 41 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:22,120 Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. How did you get into 42 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: sleep psychology? So I took a year before going to 43 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: graduate school and I worked in a medical school at 44 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: Brown University where I went front undergrad and I was 45 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,480 Speaker 1: doing research in people who had addictions, and I was 46 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: going into rehabs and it was for alcohol addiction, and 47 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:41,800 Speaker 1: the study was looking at treating sleep problems, insomnia and 48 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: people who were in early recovery, because a lot of 49 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 1: times people relapse because they're not sleeping. And what we 50 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: found was getting people to sleep better actually helped to 51 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: reduce the rates of relapse. And that to me was 52 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 1: groundbreaking and eye opening to see that how many things 53 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:01,880 Speaker 1: could really be changed just by getting some good nights 54 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: of sleep if it's any sort of addiction issue. But 55 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: then mood, it's sleep is such a fundamental that it 56 00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:08,720 Speaker 1: really made me start thinking about how I want to 57 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 1: study it more and more in my life. Amazing, I 58 00:03:12,360 --> 00:03:16,520 Speaker 1: already have eight thousand questions. Okay, you described in the 59 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:20,640 Speaker 1: NYT Parenting column that momsomnia is where a lot of 60 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: moms and some dads, but mostly moms almost become hardwired 61 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 1: to listen for what are called sleep threats. Okay, every 62 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: mom listening to this right now knows like if your 63 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 1: kid is about to cry, you like wake up two 64 00:03:34,840 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: minutes before, or like I can hear my kid open 65 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,600 Speaker 1: his door and start walking down the hallway like in 66 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: advance every morning. It's so crazy, and even when the 67 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,040 Speaker 1: threat is gone, they continue to have trouble with sleep 68 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: because we're so conditioned to keep listening. Can you tell 69 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: us more about why you took a particular interest in momsomnia. 70 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 1: So when I was practicing for a long time and 71 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: I was approached about writing a book, I started to 72 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: They started to think, well, what area would you want 73 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: to meet, maybe more focus on. I realized that so 74 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,120 Speaker 1: many of my patients were a women of all different 75 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: age ranges, and I just noticed that women sleep, whether 76 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: it be mom ssomnie of like burning the candle at 77 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: both ends not making sleep a priority, or the other 78 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: thing is that insomnia of when people's kids, mom's kids 79 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:26,719 Speaker 1: start sleeping better, the babies just better. You still are 80 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,280 Speaker 1: keeping an ear out and you start to have insomnia. 81 00:04:29,600 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: That was just a fascinating are and I mean that 82 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,800 Speaker 1: people years ago we're talking about I'm so glad that 83 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: it's really now taken off and people are talking about it. 84 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: Women sleep just has not been focused on until recently. 85 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,239 Speaker 1: So now there's you know, new moms and perimenopause and menopause, 86 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 1: and I'm so glad that we're talking about all this stuff. Wow. 87 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: I mean, it does definitely continue on. I mean I 88 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,040 Speaker 1: definitely feel like before and a half year old, I 89 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: feel like I haven't slept in I've always been a 90 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 1: great sleeper, and it was my first foray into insomnia 91 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 1: and sleep issues during pregnancy, you know, like that's my 92 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:06,360 Speaker 1: first time like going to the bathroom constantly being so 93 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: physically uncomfortable that you can't switch positions, you can't sleep 94 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: on your stomach, and then it translates into the first 95 00:05:12,440 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: three months, which are basically just hell in a handbag. 96 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: I had such bad postpartum depression with my daughter, and 97 00:05:18,560 --> 00:05:24,520 Speaker 1: sometimes I think, had I slept, would it have been 98 00:05:24,560 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: as bad? Probably, yes, But I don't know. I always 99 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: tell people, you know, sleep deprivation is a form of 100 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: torture in war times, and like that's what we're doing 101 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: at the beginning. Do you deal with women who are 102 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: so um that are in the postpartum area, like more recent. Yeah, 103 00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:48,640 Speaker 1: you know I did not make any sense. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, 104 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: yeah totally. Yeah. The thing that I wish people would 105 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: talk about more when they're about to have the baby 106 00:05:55,680 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: is coming up with sleep plans based on your life, 107 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: your help. You hopefully can have available conversations with your partner. 108 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: I some people have night nurses, some people don't. What 109 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: could a plan look like? So a plan could really 110 00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: It really varies from family to family. So what I 111 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: did was I and I was very I talked about 112 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: it on my Instagram account a lot. I had a 113 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: lot of trouble breastfeeding and I just could not produce anything. 114 00:06:22,080 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: So we were we were bottle feeding and that's what 115 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 1: we were just doing. So I took shifts with my husband. 116 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: So we made it very clear that he was going 117 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: to take the I think it was like nine to 118 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,799 Speaker 1: two shift, and then I took from two to six 119 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 1: every day and we bottle fed. If you're someone who 120 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: is breastfeeding, you know that's something where if you're not 121 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,559 Speaker 1: bottle feeding, you could also think about having someone come 122 00:06:45,960 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: feeding or change the baby, do all the diaper, all 123 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff and just hand to you if 124 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: you're doing breastfeeding solely at night, so to really try 125 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: to get help when you can, and if you don't 126 00:06:57,360 --> 00:06:59,560 Speaker 1: have a significant other to help with it at night, 127 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 1: then it's really about thinking about what can you do 128 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: during the day to get some rest here and there, um, 129 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:09,560 Speaker 1: But really thinking about what you're doing for feeding shifts 130 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: that you're going to do, and where can you get 131 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: some downtime naps or rest whatever you can during the day, 132 00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: and asking for help. Don't assume that you should be 133 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 1: able to do it all yourself. That's the case. Yeah, 134 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: that's really great. I I have to say, like people 135 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: are like, what does the night nurse do if you 136 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: are breastfeeding? And I was breastfeeding, and I have to 137 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: say it was for us worth the money, um, because yes, 138 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: I would breastfeed for forty minutes, but she would, like 139 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: you said, do the diaper ring get that. I would 140 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 1: literally put the baby on my boob and then throw 141 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: the baby back at her and run to my bed 142 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: while she was rechanging the diaper, getting the baby back down. 143 00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: All of these things that are like an additional twenty 144 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: or thirty minutes that I didn't have to go through. 145 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,560 Speaker 1: The Other thing is if a night nurse is not 146 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: in option for you, you know, Adam and I had 147 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: conversations where I was like, I'm going to breastfeed and 148 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 1: do this at night, but you're gonna do that. I'm 149 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: gonna pump enough for a bottle, you know, for the 150 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: ten pm feed, and I'm going to go to bed 151 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: right at eight o'clock and I'll be up at two 152 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: or three. But there was a real understanding between us 153 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: that if he's going to be getting the better quality, 154 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: longer sleep at night, it's so that he can really 155 00:08:20,840 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: fucking pull it out in the day, do you know 156 00:08:22,520 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 1: what I mean? Like I was like, oh, if I'm 157 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: going to be taking the night shifts, the brunt of 158 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: them for these months, like that means that you're really 159 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,439 Speaker 1: getting a good six hours at night, you're gonna need 160 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: to deliver in the daytime. And he did good, good, 161 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: But you see, like all that stuff is the conversation, 162 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 1: like you can't predict what's going to happen, but you 163 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:47,959 Speaker 1: can try and be as prepared as possible beforehand. And 164 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: like I had prepared, I had planned to breastfeed, and 165 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: I couldn't do it like there's all those things that 166 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:54,360 Speaker 1: can happen, but try to come up with as many 167 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: options that you can in advance, because when you're sleep deprived, 168 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: when you're thinking about key being a child alive, that's 169 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:04,480 Speaker 1: not the time to necessarily problem solve how you're going 170 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: to work as a team. So to really be proactive 171 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: is going to pay off big time. That's such a 172 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: great tip because I have to tell you most of 173 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,840 Speaker 1: my couple's friends, the big gass knockdown, drag out fights 174 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:19,679 Speaker 1: and the way they've treated each other like they've never 175 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: done before, happened in the middle of the night where 176 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: it's like they're not even because you're not dealing with 177 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: like a stable personal the rational mind I was says, 178 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,559 Speaker 1: the rational mind is not there two in the morning. 179 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:34,679 Speaker 1: It just doesn't And you're like, go to sleep, Why 180 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: won't my baby sleep? And it's just frustration and anger 181 00:09:38,040 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 1: and it's just is not the time to problem solve 182 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 1: all that. Granted, baby, it's gonna throw you a million 183 00:09:42,440 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 1: different things. You're not gonna know what exactly is gonna happen. 184 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: You can't plan for everything, but to have some framework 185 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: of trying to protect some time for sleep. And what 186 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,400 Speaker 1: you're talking about with postpartum depression, we actually see all 187 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: the time and um and and it's been proven in 188 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: research that if you don't dedicate a block for at 189 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: least four hours of protected sleep, what we find actually 190 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,400 Speaker 1: starts to happen is that if you had a prior 191 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: history of depression or anxiety, you're actually at a greater 192 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: risk of developing postpartum depression or anxiety. So we really, 193 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: I really want people to start thinking about it when 194 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,440 Speaker 1: they're pregnant, of game plans of what you can do 195 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:21,560 Speaker 1: to try and get four hours. That's all I'm asking 196 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: for of a protected sleep period. Why is four hours 197 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: the magic number? It's just what we found in research. 198 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:32,480 Speaker 1: It's enough to be um protective and restorative somewhat. So 199 00:10:32,559 --> 00:10:36,520 Speaker 1: you're getting enough sleep cycles of ram deep sleep to 200 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: be restorative enough that then you can make up for 201 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 1: it a little bit with naps here and there if 202 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: you need to. When you first get home, I think 203 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:47,080 Speaker 1: most people are riding high from the endorphins and the 204 00:10:47,160 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: serotonin and all of these things. So to be waking 205 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: up every hour to two hours to feed a baby, 206 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,160 Speaker 1: whether that to be a bottle or breast you're kind 207 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,440 Speaker 1: of still riding this high of like we did it, 208 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,679 Speaker 1: this is new, all of this, and then whenever that 209 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: fades for people and you realize, oh no, this is 210 00:11:03,640 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 1: what it is like, you're going to be waking up 211 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 1: like this. That's when I I felt like, oh, I'm 212 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 1: going to be institutionalized, Like I'm going to lose my 213 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: fucking mind. I can't do this anymore. I felt like 214 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: it was like just absolutely dangerous. So I love the 215 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: idea of making a sleep plan in pregnancy of how 216 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:28,199 Speaker 1: you and your support system can protect some sort of 217 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 1: sleep for yourself because we're so focused on the baby, right, 218 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:33,679 Speaker 1: how are you going to feed your baby? How are 219 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: you where's your baby going to sleep? All that stuff 220 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: that we get lost in the whole thing that I 221 00:11:38,320 --> 00:11:41,679 Speaker 1: think really thinking if you have a family unit or 222 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: mom parent, whoever it is, if the baby is sleeping, well, 223 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: the parents are gonna sleep off. The parents are sleeping, well, 224 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 1: it's going to help the baby. Also understanding what normal 225 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: is right people often, I mean I have people contact 226 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 1: me like, three weeks postpartum, how can I sleep my training, 227 00:11:57,120 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: sleep train my baby? That's not how many really, that's 228 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,359 Speaker 1: not how it works so it's really also having expectations 229 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: of what it should look like and then trying to 230 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: work your world around how baby sleep is going to 231 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: be so you can protect some time too. Is there 232 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: any realness to the phrase sleep when the baby sleeps, 233 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: which is the thing that everyone tells you, and I'm like, 234 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 1: what their naps during the day like? Is that when 235 00:12:24,640 --> 00:12:26,800 Speaker 1: you're supposed to be like running to your bed and 236 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,199 Speaker 1: praying that you can convince yourself to fall asleep or 237 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:32,480 Speaker 1: if not, just rest right. I mean, I have a 238 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:34,240 Speaker 1: twelve year old and a six year old and I 239 00:12:34,320 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: still remember it to this day what it was like. 240 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:38,960 Speaker 1: It would be lovely. If you can sleep when your 241 00:12:38,960 --> 00:12:41,920 Speaker 1: baby sleeps, that's great. If you can do it. I 242 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: never was able to do it. We were talking about 243 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: keeping an ear out. That's what I always did. Even 244 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 1: if I went to sleep and I had someone else watching, 245 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: I was just hard wired to be listening for whatever 246 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: would be happening. So if you can rest, that's ideal. 247 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: It's more about prioritizing, what I mean, Like, I know 248 00:12:57,160 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: there were times when my kids would nap, wo be like, 249 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:00,839 Speaker 1: I gotta go and wash the bottles, I gotta go 250 00:13:00,880 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: to does that stuff really need to happen in that moment, 251 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 1: Maybe you can just rest, because then if you start 252 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 1: pretty sleep on that pedestal when the naps are supposed 253 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: to happen, you're gonna make it worse for yourself. Just rest, 254 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:14,679 Speaker 1: that's the key. Yeah. And also I like that point, 255 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 1: which is I think a lot of moms that whole 256 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: sleep when the baby's sleeping, they run to their bed 257 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: and sleep isn't achievable because they can't stop their mind. 258 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: And then they start racing even more because they're not 259 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:28,079 Speaker 1: sleeping and they're looking at the clock knowing that the 260 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: baby is gonna wake up soon. And now you're just 261 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 1: nothing but frustrated and anxious that you didn't get sleep. 262 00:13:32,800 --> 00:13:35,200 Speaker 1: So really, the goal should just be to lay flat 263 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 1: on your back, close your eyes in deep breathe, chill, 264 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: just chill. Find something to do to decompress. That's the goal. 265 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,439 Speaker 1: So and if you sleep extra benefit, wonderful, But don't 266 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:47,600 Speaker 1: force it because the more you're forcing it, like you're 267 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:50,559 Speaker 1: saying that we're frustrated and anxious, you're gonna get find 268 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 1: something that's relaxing. Psychology Today mentions a term called emotional labor, 269 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 1: saying that it's the invisible will work to make others 270 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: feel cared for and comfortable. It has expanded into conversations 271 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: about gendered roles, which you know, women being expected to 272 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:14,360 Speaker 1: assume more empathetic responsiveness and caretaking. Can you explain how 273 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: emotional labor and task management, how this impacts sleep, and 274 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 1: how in the fuck we reduce this? Come on? Good 275 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 1: luck with that. I think it's a societal thing too, 276 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: But I do see some waves. I mean it's a 277 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 1: huge desidal thing. I think there's waves changing of expectations. Right, 278 00:14:33,000 --> 00:14:36,240 Speaker 1: so we lose ourselves when we're thinking about caring for 279 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: everyone else. That that's those moments where you need to 280 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: say to yourself, Okay, the first thing is if you 281 00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: can sleep, Like what what has to be done? Do 282 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:45,880 Speaker 1: I have to do all these things for everyone else 283 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: before I go to bed, and to really think about 284 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: prioritizing what what I like to be done, what a 285 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: society say that I need to have done? Do I 286 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: need to have a perfectly clean house? And he's someone 287 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: steps or comes over tomorrow unexpected, my in law has 288 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: come over. It's letting go of that stuff, letting go 289 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: of the expectations that you have for yourself and really 290 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: about prioritizing what needs to get done. Who do I 291 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: need to be focusing on in this moment, What would 292 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,200 Speaker 1: I'd like to get done? And what can wait for 293 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 1: a day or a week or whatever. And if you 294 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: think about it that way, what's the most pressing It 295 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 1: will help to take some of that pressure off yourself. 296 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: I think, go to bed with the sink full of dishes, 297 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: go to bed with a house that's messy. No one cares. 298 00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: If you think that it matters, it doesn't. This has 299 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: been a huge learning curve for me what you're speaking 300 00:15:32,680 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: of right now. I've always kept a very O C 301 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: D control oriented house and I have had to throw 302 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:45,120 Speaker 1: a lot of that ship away to like read a book, 303 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: and I've had to like reconfigure how my brain space works. 304 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: I'm a virgo. I love when ship looks pretty and organized. 305 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: I have a very far Are you a virgo? Yep? 306 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: Oh hilarious. I when's your birthday? September? So, but like 307 00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 1: I have a hard time doing anything if she doesn't 308 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:10,080 Speaker 1: look right to my eye. And I have had to 309 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 1: really retrain myself of like not making the bed every 310 00:16:14,640 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 1: day because it just fell off the list. Or like 311 00:16:17,840 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 1: you said, leaving ship out in the living room, all 312 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 1: over the table, not cleaning up from dinner. On some 313 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: nights where I've just been like I'm done. I cannot. 314 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: I promised myself I would be in bed by nine o'clock. 315 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: I'm not doing it. And I have to say it's 316 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,880 Speaker 1: been better. It's free, right. Yes, yes, My one of 317 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: my best friends said to me a few years ago, 318 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 1: and this will stick with me forever, and I loved it. 319 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:45,920 Speaker 1: I apologize because she was going to come over for 320 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: just a quick drop off and I said, um, I 321 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: apologize my house as a mess. And she looked at 322 00:16:51,240 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: me and said, you never need to apologize. You're a 323 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,000 Speaker 1: busy mom. Your house is as it is. I will 324 00:16:56,040 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 1: not judge you for anything. And that to me, I 325 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,320 Speaker 1: wish that we just said that to another right to 326 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 1: just be out and it was so free, just like 327 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,640 Speaker 1: there's no expectations. I think COVID a little bit helped 328 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 1: with that too for me of just like getting in 329 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 1: the habit of like oh, no one was coming over. 330 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,439 Speaker 1: I mean now we're like sort of opening back up. 331 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: And I've definitely been like, oh my god, I'm so embarrassed. 332 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: We didn't like make the bed today, which like it's 333 00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 1: ingrained in me as a child. I mean, my mom 334 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:23,879 Speaker 1: didn't let me go to school unless my bed was made. 335 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 1: But now I'm in a relationship, which we're going to 336 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: get into this question in a minute. What tips do 337 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: you have? This is big on sleep for couples who 338 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: get up at different times of the freaking day. They 339 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: share the same bed, they get in bed at different times. 340 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,080 Speaker 1: I can count on two hands the amount of times 341 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: my husband and I have gone to sleep at the 342 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: same time and woken up at the same time. I 343 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: am so impressed at couples that do that. My sleep 344 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:02,080 Speaker 1: is always in interrupted and so is his because he 345 00:18:02,160 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: comes into bed late. It wakes me up. Then I'm like, oh, 346 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 1: I should pee, I go pee, I come back. I 347 00:18:07,760 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: wake up really early with the kids. He's asleep. We're 348 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: on opposite schedules. What are your recommendations for that. I 349 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:17,280 Speaker 1: am convinced that we should all be Lucy and DESI 350 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: and just be in two twin bens and like meet 351 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 1: up for sex. Like I, this is so ridiculous that 352 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: we should. You know, I agree with you. So the 353 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: first thing is I think people have this old school. 354 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: I think it's changing, but I mean some of my 355 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 1: older patients I've worked with have this idea of, like, 356 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: I have to go to bed at the same time 357 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 1: as my spouse because for whatever we have to get up, 358 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: And there's this weird like association with being tied together, 359 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: sleep together, meeting a healthier relationship bs total bs. Oh, 360 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:55,000 Speaker 1: that's great to know everyone ever done that. I'm so glad. 361 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: Like if you go to like, everyone has different sleep schedules. 362 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 1: Some people are night at als, people are early versus. 363 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: My husband is much more of a night owl. I 364 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: get up five fifteen in the morning. I go to 365 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:09,800 Speaker 1: bed super early, and it's okay. It doesn't mean that 366 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: if you try to force one person to keep someone 367 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: else's sleep schedule, all that does is make more resentment 368 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: in the relationship. So I try to encourage people to 369 00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,359 Speaker 1: know what your sleep schedule is. If you're content with 370 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:23,720 Speaker 1: how you sleep, that's the thing. Like I work with 371 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 1: in slomnia patients sometimes and I'm changing their bedtimes and 372 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:28,280 Speaker 1: wake times and sometimes it works out with what their 373 00:19:28,359 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: husband or spouses doing. That's fine, but don't try to 374 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: force it if it's not happening. Now. The other thing 375 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: that you were kind of hitting on is sleeping separately, 376 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 1: So if well before that, if you if you have 377 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,440 Speaker 1: to keep different times of sleep, like because of kids 378 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: or whatever, there's you know, there's also a little bit 379 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: of disrespect, like some people just lighter sleepers than other 380 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: and that's it is what it is. You just have 381 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: to accept it and not be angry if someone comes 382 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: in and gets into bed unless you have like a 383 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: California king and no one gets affected by it, but 384 00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: it just it might happen. But there's a bit of 385 00:19:59,880 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: a discussion of okay, could you not turn on all 386 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: the lights? Could you take out your clothes and advance 387 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: so you're not opening and being thought full about that stuff. 388 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,760 Speaker 1: And the one other thing I always recommend is vibrating 389 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: alarm clocks so you can get like a watch or 390 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 1: an under your pillow alarm so that you don't need 391 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 1: to have a huge alarm go off that wakes up 392 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:18,720 Speaker 1: the other person. So vibrating ones are really big, so 393 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: people don't never heard of that. And then when do 394 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: you sleep separate? If the person snoring and has gotten 395 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: evaluated enough, get evaluated if you're snoring or having pauses 396 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: and your breathing, or someone's a very restless sleeper, or 397 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: you just are super light, get in bed before cuddle, 398 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: have sex whatever, I don't care, and then when it's 399 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 1: time to actually go to bed, if you both sleep 400 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: better separately, sleep better separately, it will actually strengthen your relationship. Really, 401 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: So okay, So if there's resentment, right right? If? Okay, Yes, 402 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,680 Speaker 1: I do have another couple friend who I feel so bad. 403 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: She's such a light sleeper and if her husband ever 404 00:20:57,640 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: wants to go out and hang with my husband or whatever, 405 00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: God forbid, he comes into the bed and wakes her up. 406 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,439 Speaker 1: He's in the biggest, fattest trouble of all time, Like 407 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:08,080 Speaker 1: he's a fucking child. And I'm like, this is not 408 00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: good for either of you. He wants to have some 409 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: sort of social life, have some sort of companionship with 410 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:19,640 Speaker 1: guy friends, and she wants to get her sleep. Both 411 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: are completely valid, um, And he's like terrified, like I 412 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,840 Speaker 1: can't go because she'll be asleep and I can't come in. 413 00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,400 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my god, this is ridiculous. Sleep 414 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 1: separate for those nights or you know, like there's a 415 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: plan for everyone, And I think there's so much stigma 416 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 1: about sleeping separately that it's so funny when I have patience, 417 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, just why don't you just you tried everything, 418 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,440 Speaker 1: they're still snoring even with having your appne and treated 419 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 1: or whatever. Why don't you just sleep separately? And it's 420 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: like freeing for them when I say that, because I'm 421 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 1: a psychologist. So we still have sex, still cuddled, do 422 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,240 Speaker 1: all that stuff when it's not just like go to 423 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: a separate interesting. Yeah, there is a stigma touch because 424 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: you even say it, and I say, oh, marriage is 425 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 1: in the toilet, like you know, you hear those the 426 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,880 Speaker 1: little kids being like, well my mommy and daddy sleep 427 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: in separate rooms, and you're like, oh, ship, trouble and paradise. 428 00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:11,240 Speaker 1: So let's change that conversation, right, So why is sleep important? 429 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,880 Speaker 1: How does it help you with your emotion regulation, help 430 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,400 Speaker 1: you feel stronger and closer as a couple, So all 431 00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,919 Speaker 1: those things are really important as well. And it doesn't 432 00:22:19,960 --> 00:22:23,320 Speaker 1: just sleeping apart doesn't mean that they're having about relationship. 433 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: So I actually encourage people to talk with their kids 434 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 1: about it very openly and how sleep is super important 435 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,160 Speaker 1: for emotional health and physical health so that they can 436 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: be together as a couple for longer. You're featured in 437 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 1: a number of Headspace videos shout out Headspace, I love 438 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 1: it where you talk more about getting enough sleep, exercise, 439 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 1: writing things down, taking bads, meditations, or some of the 440 00:22:44,520 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: recommendations you had to help people wind down. Can you 441 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: take us through these tips and tricks that we talked about, Like, 442 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: are you like big on like no screens ten or 443 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 1: fifteen minutes before? Are you big into white sound? Tell 444 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: me yeah. So I think there's different classes of how 445 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: you have to think about sleep issues. Right, If you're 446 00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: someone who has an occasional bad night here and there, 447 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,959 Speaker 1: you might not likely meet the criteria for chronic insomnia. 448 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: So that's a whole other thing. But I think in general, 449 00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: I don't have an issue with white noise. I actually, 450 00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 1: for a long time slept with white noise because it 451 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: was moving houses and I was in a temporary apartment 452 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: and we were near our highway. So white noise is 453 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: perfect and some people just like that noise in the background, 454 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: no problem with it. The thing that you have to 455 00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 1: think about, though, is that you might get addicted to 456 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: needing that noise to sleep. So I noticed when I 457 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: moved to my permanent house was very quiet. I couldn't 458 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 1: sleep without the noise. So if you're going to introduce it, 459 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: just know that you might need it when you go away, 460 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:37,320 Speaker 1: you go to a hotel or something that you might 461 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: have to bring white noise with you. Um, but I screens, 462 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,640 Speaker 1: so there's a lot of Like, for a long time, 463 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: we would say in the field, don't look at blue 464 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: light before bed because it messes with your melotone in 465 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,240 Speaker 1: production and it makes you not be able to get 466 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,960 Speaker 1: a sleepy Some people are actually debating that more and 467 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,919 Speaker 1: more now and research, and that's okay. The screens are 468 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: not necessarily the devil. What I think becomes the problem 469 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 1: is the all the stuff that we're watching. So this 470 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,760 Speaker 1: is where that mom saw me that like, I'm not 471 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:04,719 Speaker 1: going to bed because I want the time for myself 472 00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 1: kind of thing. We're binge watching things, we're stum scrolling, 473 00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: we're on Instagram until like, and that's the stuff I 474 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: think that gets people sucked in and not going to 475 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:16,880 Speaker 1: sleep earlier for that reason. That's what it is for me, 476 00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 1: for sure. It is not the blue light for me. 477 00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:24,720 Speaker 1: It's that I'm rebelling against. This is my only time 478 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:29,679 Speaker 1: to me and so I'm gonna watch these shows or 479 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:36,680 Speaker 1: just mindlessly scroll Instagram or whatever, and all of a 480 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: sudden I look over and it's one o'clock in the morning, 481 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:42,879 Speaker 1: and why did I do that? Yeah, you know, it 482 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: feels great in the moment, but it's the long term 483 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: pain that ends up causing over and over again. And 484 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: I think that's how people need to start thinking about it. 485 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:51,240 Speaker 1: When it comes to that mom Sambie or revenge bedtime. 486 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:54,000 Speaker 1: There's a whole bunch of you know, thoughts on it, 487 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: but you really need to try and at least set 488 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: a timer for yourself something to remind yourself of why 489 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: you should be going to a little bit earlier. I 490 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: do that for myself because I get in the human being, 491 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: I get caught and all that stuff too. Oh my gosh, 492 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,640 Speaker 1: I could watch Netflix all day long. So I am 493 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: set an alarm, and on my alarm, I also put 494 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,399 Speaker 1: a label of what's my reason why? So I'm I 495 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 1: need to go to bed because it will make me 496 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: a better mom, it will make me better at my job, whatever. 497 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: I have a label to remind me of why I'm 498 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: doing it, not just like you don't need to go 499 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:25,679 Speaker 1: to bed kind of thing. And then the other thing 500 00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:27,399 Speaker 1: I do is I put on I turn off the 501 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: auto play on like Netflix or anything. If it keeps going, 502 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: it goes from show to show to show, So I 503 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: just have that setting off, So I have to make 504 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,439 Speaker 1: a conscious decision at the end of every show if 505 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:41,440 Speaker 1: I want to choose sleep or TV. Okay, what about 506 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: people who I think a lot of this conversation has 507 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: been about going to sleep. What about the people who 508 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: wake up all throughout the night? This is big for moms. 509 00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: You thought you heard a baby cry? Phantom cries? Like 510 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: nobody business? Did I hear something like? We were talking 511 00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:01,280 Speaker 1: about that era at how? And then you're up. Now 512 00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:04,159 Speaker 1: you've gone to the bathroom. Now your brain is racing, 513 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:08,520 Speaker 1: what the hell? What are what do we do? So 514 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: if that's happening routinely, so at least three or more 515 00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: times a week for a few months, that's and like 516 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,639 Speaker 1: baby sleeping, fine, there's no other identifiable trigger that you 517 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 1: need to work on. Then that's when it's actually now 518 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,239 Speaker 1: crossed over into the insomnia around or even like if 519 00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 1: you're avoiding screens before bed or all that, and you 520 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: still can't fall asleep routinely despite doing all the basic 521 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 1: sleep hygiene stuff. That's when you want to start thinking 522 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,119 Speaker 1: about something called cognitive behavior therapy for insomnia. So it 523 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: takes the basic sleep hygiene, but sometimes we actually change 524 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: people's bed times, so it's kind of goes against what 525 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: we were just saying a little bit more or earlier. 526 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: But sometimes if people are waking up a lot in 527 00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: the middle of the night and they're very active in 528 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,399 Speaker 1: their minds are activated, I actually have people go to 529 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,520 Speaker 1: bed a lot later and wake up at the same 530 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: time and not necessarily now, because that helps to deepen 531 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: their sleep and it helps them to if they wake up, 532 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: they fall back asleep a little bit faster. So I 533 00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,960 Speaker 1: don't just necessarily say I don't willy, really go to 534 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: bed a lot later. Look up CBT, FRIENDSLOM, any of 535 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: the great apps out there. My book is a good example. 536 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: You can work with someone like myself, but that actually 537 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:09,120 Speaker 1: can help to deepen sleep, and that's what we usually 538 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 1: recommend if you're that kind of phantom listener or you're 539 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,040 Speaker 1: you wake up and you're worried or whatever else is 540 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: going on, because you would rather people go to bed 541 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,600 Speaker 1: later and get more solid, connected hours, really quality. I 542 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,679 Speaker 1: think we get so focused on the quantity quality over quantity. 543 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 1: I have patients that will sleep really well within awakening 544 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: here and there, but they go back to sleep with 545 00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: six and a half hours versus eight hours of chunk 546 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,200 Speaker 1: chunk chunk chunk throughout the night. So we really work 547 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: on doing that sort of stuff. And then it's also 548 00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:44,920 Speaker 1: about targetting the worries, right, So some people will wake 549 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,200 Speaker 1: up worrying about anything and everything. I know, I've been there, 550 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 1: and we talk about ways to do things before bed 551 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,840 Speaker 1: to do almost like a brain dump, to target some 552 00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: of those worries. Or we'll do things about what what 553 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: are you doing in the middle and I are you 554 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: like sitting there on your phone? Are you scrolling? Are 555 00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:00,600 Speaker 1: you bad? Bad idea? So I have people get up 556 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: and find other things to do in the middle of 557 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,239 Speaker 1: the night just to pass the time, because then if 558 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:05,960 Speaker 1: you start trying to force sleep to happen in the 559 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,120 Speaker 1: middle night, you're gonna make it worse. So we try 560 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: to take the focus off it a little less time 561 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: in bed, and I work with tailoring it very much 562 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 1: to someone. It's a really effective treatment, and like I said, 563 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,560 Speaker 1: there are apps out there that can help some people 564 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,240 Speaker 1: cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia bbt I. It is the 565 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: gold standard treatment. So if you have someone that's like, 566 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 1: we'll just take an ambient or take this, But they 567 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: never mentioned cbt I, that actually is the thing that 568 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:35,360 Speaker 1: should be started first. Wow, why is eight hours the thing? 569 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 1: It's not the thing that's the problem. So well, where 570 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: the fund did this come from? Like? Why that is 571 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 1: the beat of my existence? The eight hours? So it 572 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:50,600 Speaker 1: just comes from the majority of people need, meaning to 573 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,560 Speaker 1: feel well rested and refreshed throughout the day and have 574 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: a little dip here and there, need between six and 575 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,000 Speaker 1: nine hours, So what's the middle seven and a half. 576 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: It's easy to round it up to eight. That's where 577 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 1: I get eight from. So I always tell people stop 578 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: focusing on number eight. Paint to get in gold putting 579 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: out a pedestal. If you're between six to nine and 580 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 1: you feel well, arrested and refreshed with dips throughout the day, 581 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:15,440 Speaker 1: and good luck. I mean big a parent retired a lot, right, 582 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,440 Speaker 1: But if that's happening, don't you know, don't focus on 583 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: the number. How does caffeine play into all of this? 584 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 1: So caffeine. I love my caffeine like I have a 585 00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: big coffee here. You know, it's the sort of thing 586 00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: where it's fine to have a cup or two in 587 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 1: the morning. I usually have people limited. Everyone's a little different. 588 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: That's the problems we don't have like a good blood 589 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: test to be like, you metabolize caffeine a lot faster, 590 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: but usually it takes for most people about twelve hours 591 00:29:41,160 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: for half of the coffee or caffeine to leave your body. 592 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: So if you've had a big cup of coffee at noon, 593 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: half of it has left your body by midnight. So 594 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: it's okay at that point, but you know that little 595 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 1: bit here and there in the afternoon starts to add up, 596 00:29:56,880 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: and it does stay in our bodies for a long 597 00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 1: amount of time. And the older you get, the flower 598 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,600 Speaker 1: it takes to metabolize it. It's not fun. Yeah, And 599 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: also to think about think about medications and stuff. So 600 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: a lot of people take like headache medications and a 601 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 1: lot of women and they have caffeine in them. So 602 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 1: if you're not sure, ask your doctor if there's any 603 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: caffeine in you really read those ingredients. People, Um, what 604 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: tips do you have for people who are looking to 605 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: get a good night's rest but are like working shifts? Yeah, 606 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 1: I mean that's a harder one. It really depends on 607 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 1: the shift. So I work with people a good amount 608 00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: to try and come up with tailored to sleep schedules. 609 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: This is a good example of like try to have 610 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: a protected environment so that someone's not coming in and out. 611 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,000 Speaker 1: So if you can try and have a protected, quiet, dark, 612 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: cool environment. And then the other big thing is, you know, 613 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:48,800 Speaker 1: it depends on what kind of shifts. So if you 614 00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,920 Speaker 1: have a stable shift, so we're always working night, for example, 615 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: try not to then switch it completely to the day 616 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:57,160 Speaker 1: and the time that you have the days off. So 617 00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: a lot of people will like sleep during the day 618 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: when they're working, and then they'll sleep at night to 619 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:03,239 Speaker 1: try and spend time with their family and friends. I 620 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: totally appreciate that. It's wonderful an idea. Instead, maybe try 621 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:10,840 Speaker 1: to shift halfway, so sleep from four am to noon 622 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,440 Speaker 1: on your days off instead of at night to get 623 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: the afternoons with him. So like a halfway shift is 624 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: a little bit more gentle than totally reversing day and night. 625 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: And then of course tell everyone when you're trying to sleep, 626 00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 1: make it, don't make appointments in the middle, like protect 627 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 1: that time. Just like you would for anybody else who's 628 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:29,720 Speaker 1: sleeping in that time. Tell me about what you touched 629 00:31:29,760 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: upon briefly, just now the temperature and the darkness. Okay, yeah, 630 00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: So I always say to keep your room like a 631 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 1: pretty cave basically, so dark, quiet, cool and comfortable. Right, 632 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: and you know, like if you're someone whose room is 633 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: really cletter to give you a lot of anxiety, like 634 00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: maybe try to clean up a little bit so you 635 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: feel more comfortable and relaxed in your room. But it 636 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:56,920 Speaker 1: really should be dark and not just like room darkening 637 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: shades like pitch black is ideal, pitch act is ideal. 638 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: What about a sleep mask. That's fine if you need 639 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,120 Speaker 1: a sleep mask, all for it. If you can get 640 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 1: like life blocking shades completely for kids, it's super important. 641 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 1: People don't often think about it, but we It's funny, 642 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: we think about it for our kids a lot of times, 643 00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,120 Speaker 1: and we do all these things for kids, but we 644 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: don't do them for ourselves. I don't have them in 645 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: my room. My kids have total blackout shades, a little 646 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:23,719 Speaker 1: bit of white noise, and I always keep it at 647 00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:26,800 Speaker 1: sixty seven degrees, you know, and that's the ideal temperature. 648 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,560 Speaker 1: Oh great for sixties mid to upper sixties is kind 649 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 1: of ideal for most people upwards of seventy two. But 650 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 1: that's a little too warm in my opinion. But it's funny, 651 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,520 Speaker 1: like we talk about wine down, relaxing, non stimulating activity 652 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 1: for our kids. It's not like you all of a 653 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,680 Speaker 1: sudden hit eight teaming. You not grow that stuff. We 654 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 1: still need that stuff in our lives. So why do 655 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,240 Speaker 1: we think my room I don't have darkening shades. I 656 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: can't do seventy two. If I'm sharing the bed with Adam, 657 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: I'm so hot I want to kill someone. Um, we 658 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: do have a little We travel with our white noise. 659 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: I do too. I do the same thing. But honestly, 660 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: the white noise was a big help for me, um 661 00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 1: in stopping thinking that I'm hearing my children. The other 662 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 1: thing I talked to a lot of women about which 663 00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: I'm curious about, is when to turn off the monitor. 664 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: I get so many moms friends whose child is one 665 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 1: and a half and the monitor is still right next 666 00:33:24,960 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: to their head, and I'm like, listen to me. The 667 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: baby's got a full vocal box. If something is wrong, 668 00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:36,000 Speaker 1: you will hear it because they scream very loudly. Anything 669 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: else shy of that is not your business. Tell me 670 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: if I'm not a doctor, I but I'm like, oh, 671 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,160 Speaker 1: so they let out a sound because they let out 672 00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: a fart, like whatever, it's not your business, and then 673 00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 1: that ship wakes you up and then you can't get 674 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: back to sleep. So like, I have to convince myself 675 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: the baby is in a crib that is safe, that 676 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: does not have anything in it unless they are at 677 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,200 Speaker 1: of the appropriate age where your pediatrician has it is 678 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: safe to do. So, um, that my monitor is off. 679 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: But I think a lot of women struggle with anxiety 680 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: and mom guilt about turning that monitor off and feeling 681 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,279 Speaker 1: this need to know every single's peep and sound, and 682 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: like my son full on screams and has conversations and 683 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: is sleep talking, and I'm like, I don't want to know. 684 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,840 Speaker 1: He will scream mommy at the top of his lungs 685 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,080 Speaker 1: multiple times over if he needs me, and so will she. Yeah, 686 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 1: that's exactly it. And I think the thing is that 687 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: there's a few few things to impact. So the first 688 00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:36,560 Speaker 1: thing is the monitor. So I often will recommend start 689 00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,799 Speaker 1: with the monitor if you're being even if it's a 690 00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: younger baby, like they're crying, you can hear them. If 691 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: it's too anxiety rising to turn it all the way off, 692 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,760 Speaker 1: turn it halfway. Like, no one needs the monitor full strength. 693 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: You don't need the full vine, so turn it down 694 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 1: and then you can gradually turn it down lower. Now 695 00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:55,360 Speaker 1: the bigger thing I think also is that babies what 696 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,439 Speaker 1: babies are noisy? They just are noisy, and I think 697 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: we have to accept that, not a renoys. Like you 698 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: were saying, it's necessarily distressing call for you, so turn 699 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 1: the volume down. The other thing that's a bigger problem though, 700 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: is a lot of them, the like self monitor things 701 00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 1: that will have the alarm go off to tell you 702 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:14,760 Speaker 1: something's wrong. The new pediatric skandlines have come out saying 703 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: try not to use those things. Actually prefer people not 704 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,640 Speaker 1: using it because they feel like then people get kind 705 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: of lucy goosey about the betting environment and they can 706 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:26,839 Speaker 1: have the nice crib betting because and they'll have something exactly. 707 00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: So I actually tell if you're an anxious person to 708 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: begin with espect. Now that the guidance have come out 709 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 1: and kind of pushing against it, that's great, But in 710 00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 1: the past, if you have one trying not to use it, 711 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: if you tend to be anxious because there's a lot 712 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,760 Speaker 1: of false alarms, and I think it just makes parents 713 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:45,040 Speaker 1: sleep way worse than any gain that you get from it, 714 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,920 Speaker 1: which makes you a worse parent sleep. This is such 715 00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:54,640 Speaker 1: an important episode because for me, sleep is directly related 716 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 1: to how I parent and how I am in my 717 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: relationship to add at a certain point, I remember with 718 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: both of my children, I chose me and my sleep 719 00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: over them, and it was the moment I turned off 720 00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: the monitor and I was like, good luck, fend for yourselves. 721 00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,240 Speaker 1: I've put you in a safe space. Like my daughter's 722 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 1: crib is her safe space. My son's room is his 723 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: safe space. He is safe in there, there's nothing in 724 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: there that could hurt him. And I have to go 725 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: to bed and like su And I remember going on 726 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: my first like vacation with Albie when he was little, 727 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,080 Speaker 1: and I brought the monitor and everything and and we 728 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,520 Speaker 1: were somewhere it was it's I love my monitor so much. 729 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:40,719 Speaker 1: It's the nanot But they it didn't work in the WiFi. 730 00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: And I was like, what do I do? And my 731 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,120 Speaker 1: mom was like, you could just do which what we did, 732 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: which is you just listen and if you hear something 733 00:36:47,960 --> 00:36:52,360 Speaker 1: that's really loud, you go in otherwise it's fine. And 734 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: I was like, oh ship, I can do that. So 735 00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: for all the moms listening, this is your permission to 736 00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: choose your sleep over. And I'm preaching what I've learned, 737 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:08,040 Speaker 1: which is just I had to really prioritize my mental health, 738 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:13,760 Speaker 1: which is directly related to my sleep over. Fucking studying 739 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,520 Speaker 1: that monitor all night long, which all these women are doing. 740 00:37:16,560 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: It's awful. And the guy and your spouse is not. 741 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: I got news for you, Like it's it was, it's 742 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 1: right next to my head. My husband doesn't hear anything. 743 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 1: And people will come with like print outs of what 744 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: time baby was possibly awake or sleep or all this, Like, 745 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: how is this helping you to change anything that you're doing. 746 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 1: It's not. It's just making even more anxious about it. 747 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,160 Speaker 1: There's there's a more net, like you can track things 748 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 1: on a piece of paper and you can do it. 749 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: Like it's just the constant data sometimes just makes us 750 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 1: more anxious and we have to be aware of that. 751 00:37:46,960 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 1: I'm also going to say something that's very controversial. I 752 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: I feel really bad that the American Academy of Pediatrics 753 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: recommends that the kid sleeps in your room now for 754 00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: like a year, like why six months? Six months? But 755 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,120 Speaker 1: but I would tell you that the sleep field itself 756 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 1: was not loving the year officially because it was you know, 757 00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: there's a point where parents sleep also has to be 758 00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 1: prioritized to. Yeah, and I also think of babies, like 759 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,359 Speaker 1: you said, they make a lot of like like they're 760 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: working out of fart, their digestive systems coming on track, 761 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 1: it's vocal, they're they're taking a crap, whatever it is. 762 00:38:23,520 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 1: But it's like if that's in your room for that 763 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:30,359 Speaker 1: extended amount of time, Like obviously everyone's got to make 764 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:34,000 Speaker 1: whatever personal choices and whatever their pediatrician recommends. But for me, 765 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,359 Speaker 1: and I'm going to say it here, folks, my neither 766 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,759 Speaker 1: of my kids ever slept in my room. And and 767 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:45,280 Speaker 1: that worked for us. Like I had the monitor, I 768 00:38:45,320 --> 00:38:47,319 Speaker 1: wanted them to love their crib. I wanted them to 769 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: love their room, and I it wasn't actually until I 770 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: had a night nurse, Alexandra Latin, who was actually on 771 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:56,480 Speaker 1: this podcast. She's Dutch, and she was like, oh, yeah, 772 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,360 Speaker 1: the babies going the crib like immediately in other country, 773 00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, and then there are countries where 774 00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 1: I'm sure the babies are like in the beds with 775 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:05,840 Speaker 1: the mommy. So look, there's no right or wrong, but 776 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,440 Speaker 1: we're here to tell you prioritize your sleep, in your 777 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: sanity if you're if you're not doing well, I was 778 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: not doing and it's yeah, it's a conversation to have 779 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,680 Speaker 1: with your pediatrician for sure. If you're suffering and your 780 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: baby is now at the point where really the risk 781 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: of they're flipping over on their own and the risk 782 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: of sins is significantly reduced, that is a discussion to 783 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:27,560 Speaker 1: have with your pediatrician because it will be I keep 784 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:31,960 Speaker 1: saying freeing, but that shame. Guidelines are there for a reason, 785 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,440 Speaker 1: but you have to really tailor to whatever situation you're 786 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: going through and talk with your doctor for sure. Um, 787 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,840 Speaker 1: thank you so much for all of your advice. It's 788 00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:56,080 Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. Do you have any tips on us following 789 00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: through with such steps to help hold ourselves accountable? How 790 00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:01,879 Speaker 1: do we hold ourselves accountable? Win a week is like, oh, 791 00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:03,680 Speaker 1: I'm gonna do a week where I set a timer 792 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: for Netflix, or I'm gonna do a week where I'm 793 00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: really careful walking in the rooms so I don't wake 794 00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: up the person. How do you fucking sustain this? I 795 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: think that mom groups are great if you have mom 796 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: friends or friends who are parents in the same boat 797 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 1: to all really try and say, you know what, I 798 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:20,440 Speaker 1: really need to make this more of a priority to 799 00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,600 Speaker 1: have that kind of support. Sometimes if you're asking your 800 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,480 Speaker 1: significant other to like call you add on it, then 801 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: it causes more relationship problems, I think. But I also 802 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: think you know, like just to think about your why 803 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,800 Speaker 1: over and over again. And I always encourage people. The 804 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,560 Speaker 1: biggest tip that I always give people is to just 805 00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: give two weeks to it. So say, Okay, I'm gonna 806 00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:40,880 Speaker 1: cut a firm bedtime where I'm gonna turn off all 807 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:42,799 Speaker 1: the internet, I'm gonna do all this stuff. I'm gonna 808 00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:44,719 Speaker 1: try and make sleep propriety, or I'm gonna work on 809 00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:48,800 Speaker 1: whatever insomnia I have. And if you don't see gains 810 00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: after two weeks and how you feel during the day, okay, fine, 811 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: But a two week effort you might you will likely 812 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 1: see some some gains. So if you can commit two weeks, 813 00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,799 Speaker 1: you'll you'll get more motivation a long run. Love that 814 00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 1: Any final things you've learned about momsomnia that no one 815 00:41:04,239 --> 00:41:07,480 Speaker 1: told you about, or that you wish you had known. Well, 816 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,600 Speaker 1: I think people weren't talking about that mom somnia aspect, 817 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: but like just trying to take back time for yourself 818 00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:16,400 Speaker 1: at night. And I'm glad that people are talking about 819 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,279 Speaker 1: it now, but I think still people are just not 820 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,680 Speaker 1: always thinking about how it's affecting them. I think the 821 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: biggest thing is if you're someone who has insomnia where 822 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: you just can't sleep, no how or how hard you try, 823 00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 1: really get that addressed. See a professional, look at the apps, books, whatever, 824 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,000 Speaker 1: because it can increase the risk of postpartum depression. So 825 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:38,879 Speaker 1: really make sleep that four hour chunk of priorities best 826 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,560 Speaker 1: you can. Because people weren't talking about that for a 827 00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: long time. What is the title of your book? One 828 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,640 Speaker 1: more time? The Women's got to overcoming insomnia get a 829 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:49,280 Speaker 1: good night's sleep without relying on medication. Oh my god, 830 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,920 Speaker 1: that's so great, because that's the other thing too. I'm 831 00:41:51,960 --> 00:41:54,520 Speaker 1: sorry to interrupted a lot of I see. The other 832 00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:56,439 Speaker 1: thing that made me really interested in this age range 833 00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,359 Speaker 1: or with women, is that a lot of women would 834 00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: say I have terrible sleep. I'm zomniac. I can't but 835 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:02,759 Speaker 1: I don't want to take the sleeping pills because I 836 00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:04,680 Speaker 1: want to hear my child if they wake up at night. 837 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: So to work on women sleeping better without relying on 838 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,799 Speaker 1: medication was one of the biggest things that made me 839 00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: really start doing this. Talk to me about melatonin, h 840 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:18,120 Speaker 1: I could talk for days on it. So melatonin for 841 00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: UM in the US, it's not regulated by the FDA, 842 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,920 Speaker 1: so what you get is kind of you're just it's 843 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: a little bit of a crapshoot based on the brand 844 00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:28,440 Speaker 1: in the variety, and you we look for things that 845 00:42:28,480 --> 00:42:32,080 Speaker 1: are USP certified, so you know that another group has 846 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:33,520 Speaker 1: looked at it and said, what's in the bottles in 847 00:42:33,560 --> 00:42:35,920 Speaker 1: the bottle, but it's not really the cure all for 848 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: insomnia that most people think it is. So the majority 849 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:40,080 Speaker 1: of people will come to me, I've tried melotonin. It 850 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 1: doesn't really do that much. It's not without side effects, 851 00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:45,239 Speaker 1: so it does help some people, not everyone, though. It 852 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: can make people more groggy, nauseous, cause vivid dreams and 853 00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: nightmares and a lot of people so if you're taking 854 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,919 Speaker 1: you dreams that might or vivid dreams, that might be why. 855 00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:55,920 Speaker 1: And we do use it for certain things, but we 856 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:57,680 Speaker 1: don't use it all that off In for insomnia. And 857 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,200 Speaker 1: also if you're taking more than three milligrams to five 858 00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:03,799 Speaker 1: milligrams max, you're taking way too much. So a lot 859 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: of people I see take ten milligrams no way, Oh 860 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:16,800 Speaker 1: my gosh. Interesting. What about magnesium? Magnesium has even less 861 00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:23,120 Speaker 1: research by it. But I do find magnesium. I use 862 00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: it a lot for myself because I get leg cramps 863 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: from from running. I do find it's helpful for leg 864 00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 1: cramps um and it does calm and chill some people 865 00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 1: out and help some people sleep. But again, it's not 866 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,720 Speaker 1: that if it was as simple as melodonnan in magnesium, 867 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 1: we wouldn't have insomnia now. So if it helps you, great, 868 00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,560 Speaker 1: make sure your doctor's okay with it, but don't just 869 00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 1: keep taking more and more and more hoping that will work. 870 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: Over the counter is not necessarily without side effects. Finish 871 00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:56,239 Speaker 1: this sentence. Parenthood is a roller coaster. Like it. Parenthood 872 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: is a freaking roller coaster, and you will feel much 873 00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: better about it all if you get some quality as sleep. 874 00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,760 Speaker 1: And guess what, guys, that might not be eight hours 875 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 1: for you, because I really like seven. I'm not gonna 876 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:11,200 Speaker 1: lie that that last hour. I'm just like frustrated, Like 877 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,200 Speaker 1: this doesn't do anything for me if it's And there's 878 00:44:14,200 --> 00:44:16,120 Speaker 1: some people actually saying that seven might be better than 879 00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: eight for a lot of people. So yeah, Dr Shelby Harris, 880 00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,600 Speaker 1: this was so brilliant, so helpful. I hope that we 881 00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:25,840 Speaker 1: can give the gift of sleep to any of the 882 00:44:25,880 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: moms who have listened here to pick up any tips 883 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,399 Speaker 1: or tricks or pre planning to help them. Sleep is 884 00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: so important, and we do not as the moms we are, 885 00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,839 Speaker 1: and the mom guilt and being the martyrs and all 886 00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:41,840 Speaker 1: of that, we don't put enough attention that a good 887 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:45,200 Speaker 1: night's sleep or two can really change your outlook, perspective, 888 00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:52,239 Speaker 1: and experience of motherhood. Truly. So y'all listening, go get 889 00:44:52,239 --> 00:44:55,320 Speaker 1: a good night's sleep. Please go get Dr Shelby Harris's 890 00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:58,880 Speaker 1: book Recommended to any friends and new moms and not 891 00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 1: new moms who are having sleep issues CBT, insomnia CBT. 892 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:18,319 Speaker 1: I Oh my god, I learned so much. Thank you 893 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,640 Speaker 1: guys so much for listening to today's episode. I want 894 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:25,520 Speaker 1: to hear from you. Let's chat questions, comments, concerns. Let 895 00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,800 Speaker 1: me know. You can always find me at Katie's Crib 896 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:33,360 Speaker 1: at Shanda land dot com. Katie's Crib is a production 897 00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:36,040 Speaker 1: of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. 898 00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,879 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Shandoland Audio, visit the I Heart 899 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,520 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your 900 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:42,240 Speaker 1: favorite shows.