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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Therapy for Black Girls Podcast, a weekly

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Speaker 1: conversation about mental health, personal development, and all the small

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Speaker 1: decisions we can make to become the best possible versions

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Speaker 1: of ourselves. I'm your host, Dr Joy hard and Bradford,

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Speaker 1: a licensed psychologist in Atlanta, Georgia. For more information or

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Speaker 1: to find a therapist in your area, visit our website

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Speaker 1: at Therapy for Black Girls dot com. While I hope

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Speaker 1: you love listening to and learning from the podcast, it

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Speaker 1: is not meant to be a substitute for a relationship

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Speaker 1: with a licensed mental health professional. Hey, y'all, thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for joining me for session to seventy one of

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Speaker 1: the Therapy for Black Girl's podcast. We'll get right into

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Speaker 1: our conversation after a word from our sponsors. Over the

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Speaker 1: past few years, you've probably found yourself online viewing and

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Speaker 1: reacting to bite size pieces of mental health information. The

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Speaker 1: difficult part of navigating the intowebs is deciphering information from misinformation,

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Speaker 1: especially as it relates to our mental health. At times,

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Speaker 1: in an attempt to better understand ourselves in the world

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Speaker 1: we live in, we digest and share pieces of information

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Speaker 1: that we don't fully understand or properly reflect our experiences. Take,

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Speaker 1: for example, the terms trauma, bonding, gaslighting, and narcissism, all

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Speaker 1: terms that you've probably heard before and maybe even us

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Speaker 1: in your everyday life, but are you using them correctly?

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Speaker 1: Joining me today for another one of our group chat

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Speaker 1: conversations are my friends and colleagues, dr Ayana Abrams and

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Speaker 1: Dr Joy back with both psychologists in Atlanta, and our conversation,

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Speaker 1: we break down the definition of key terms we've noticed

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Speaker 1: people using and misusing online, how and why that language

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Speaker 1: will shared incorrectly, and we share suggestions on how to

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Speaker 1: be mindful around information online. If something resonates with you

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Speaker 1: while enjoying our conversation, share it with us on social

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Speaker 1: media using the hashtag tpg in session, or join us

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Speaker 1: over in the sister circles to talk more in depth

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Speaker 1: about the episode. You can join us at community that

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Speaker 1: Therapy for Black Girls dot com. Here's our conversation. So

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Speaker 1: the group chat has assembled once again, and I'm excited

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Speaker 1: to chat with y'all about some of the terms that

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Speaker 1: it feels like have been used very widely, I think,

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Speaker 1: mostly on social media that are often it feels like

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Speaker 1: being either misused or used incorrectly altogether. So I know

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Speaker 1: that you have also seen me memes and people sharing

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Speaker 1: all this stuff, and so I just wanted to get

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Speaker 1: your take on some of these terms that that I

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Speaker 1: think people should just be really careful about. So the

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Speaker 1: one that comes to mind first is trauma bonding. So

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Speaker 1: look at the collective side from both of you. So,

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Speaker 1: how are you all mostly seeing this use and what

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Speaker 1: do we want to clarify for people about what trauma

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Speaker 1: bonding is. Unfortunately, I'm mostly seeing it used by therapists

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Speaker 1: on Instagram, therapists like therapy coaches on Instagram, which I

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Speaker 1: think comes up in a lot of ways. I think

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Speaker 1: what has happened largely is that therapists have started I'm

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Speaker 1: included right this way of trying to offer psychological education

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Speaker 1: in bite size formats through images or i g. Stories

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Speaker 1: or carousels. So I think we have been introducing psychological

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Speaker 1: language to the community. And because they're not in therapy,

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Speaker 1: you're gonna have a based, like really kind of hone

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Speaker 1: in on stuff. A lot of people have run with

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Speaker 1: those things in a lot of ways. I think it's

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Speaker 1: our fault. I think we did this. I think we

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Speaker 1: created this, and we'll let me not completely and I

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Speaker 1: think the mental health system, if we talk about kind

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Speaker 1: of systemically, right, the reason we are doing this is

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Speaker 1: because we know that most people don't have access to

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Speaker 1: mental health care, and we are trying to offer right

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Speaker 1: some freeway for people to get some access to something

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Speaker 1: more than what they have. But I think it's turned

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Speaker 1: into now its own industry of that kind of psychological education.

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Speaker 1: And that was one of the first ones that we

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Speaker 1: began talking about. I think because a lot of therapists

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Speaker 1: work with clients who are navigating or kind of dealing

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Speaker 1: with trauma or kind of you know, consequences of traumatic situations,

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Speaker 1: and then you pair it with a lot of people

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Speaker 1: needing relationship help. We've got this trauma bond. I don't

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Speaker 1: know the difference between misinformation and disinformation, but that no,

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Speaker 1: I agree, Dr A. I think we did it, and

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, for for all the reasons that

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Speaker 1: perhaps were intended to be good reasons, like how can

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Speaker 1: we start talking about these relationships that perhaps are unhealthy

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Speaker 1: in a way that is a little bit casual. It's like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so perhaps this is what's going on, and we've made

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Speaker 1: it a term where you can kind of latch on

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Speaker 1: and you know, has the trauma there, so it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is trauma related and oh the connection, it's a

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Speaker 1: bond that you have. So I think we like we

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Speaker 1: did it in terms of making it where we're raising

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Speaker 1: I guess, like public awareness about kind of the dynamics

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Speaker 1: of these relationships. But there's some pros and cons to

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Speaker 1: speaking of it in this way. And as we see,

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Speaker 1: then everybody is trauma bonding, so we're not really talking

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Speaker 1: about what exactly is So before you know it, it's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I went to the grocery store and that's what happened.

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Speaker 1: I was trauma bonding with the cashier. No, you were not,

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Speaker 1: you know, So we're now we're using this term and

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Speaker 1: really not talking about exactly what is it and what

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Speaker 1: are the potential dangerous involved when we trauma bond. So

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Speaker 1: I think it came out with one intention and then

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Speaker 1: it grew wings and it's yeah, taken over. Taken over,

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Speaker 1: I mean, because you know, I think the traditional definition

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Speaker 1: of trauma bonding is much more like us Stockholm syndrome, correct, Like,

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Speaker 1: it is more like you have been through a traumatic

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Speaker 1: experience and then you in some ways empathize with your perpetrator, right,

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Speaker 1: and so, but what it feels like it's commonly used

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Speaker 1: is you know, like oh, I have a traumatic experience,

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Speaker 1: and then I share my traumatic experience with somebody and

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Speaker 1: they had a traumatic experience, and so we then bonded

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Speaker 1: over our trauma, which is not the same thing. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it sounds very like it would make sense, right like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we bonded over trauma, but that's not actually trauma bonding. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you don't want to necessarily bond over your trauma.

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Speaker 1: So it feels like now we have trauma bonding circles

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Speaker 1: and it's like, oh, we've all experienced like this trauma

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Speaker 1: and we're bonding over that. And it's like, well, although

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Speaker 1: it's helpful for us to talk about the trauma that

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Speaker 1: we've been through, it's like we also don't want to,

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Speaker 1: you know, ruminating doesn't help, and kind of staying there

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Speaker 1: does not do anything for who I'm talking to about

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Speaker 1: my trauma. So yeah, so it's gone away from the

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Speaker 1: original definition. And then your trauma, my trauma. We've experienced it,

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Speaker 1: But where's the help, you know, what are we doing

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Speaker 1: now instead of like, Okay, I've experienced this, and then

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Speaker 1: we go online and we're making reels and TikTok videos

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Speaker 1: about the trauma that we've all experienced as a result

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Speaker 1: of whatever. So it's just not helpful if we, you know,

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Speaker 1: continue letting it be used loosely like this. And I

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Speaker 1: think largely people still do not understand what trauma is.

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Speaker 1: I'm seeing a lot of blurriness between right things that

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Speaker 1: people experience as trauma versus things that are unpleasant, things

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Speaker 1: that you know, people that people remember from the past

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Speaker 1: that were unpleasant experiences, and that is also still very

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Speaker 1: different from a traumatic experience. And I think again, because

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Speaker 1: all of that gets lost right because of how we

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Speaker 1: are learning about this in these sound bites and in

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Speaker 1: these instagram clips. You're not working with somebody who can

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Speaker 1: really help you understand and discern that because you remember

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Speaker 1: something unpleasant that happened doesn't mean that was a traumatic experience.

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Speaker 1: Because anything happened that you didn't like or was unexpected

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Speaker 1: or that was painful for a while also doesn't mean

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Speaker 1: that that was traumatic for you. So I think that

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Speaker 1: even the conversation abound trauma and trauma bonding also really

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Speaker 1: dilutes what people can understand or accepted about like the

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Speaker 1: human experience that there are things that will happen that

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Speaker 1: are not okay, that you didn't want, that you didn't like.

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Speaker 1: But that doesn't always mean that you have been traumatized

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Speaker 1: in some way and that you are a trauma survivor, right,

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Speaker 1: or that that you now have this new identity because

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Speaker 1: things didn't happen in a certain way, or that you

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Speaker 1: were hurt or that things harmed you. Harmful things also

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Speaker 1: don't equate to trauma. It's a whole it's a fuller experience.

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Speaker 1: And I think that if you are not working with

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Speaker 1: someone professionally or kind of have more kind of a

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Speaker 1: sensibility around that than yes, your narrative would be that

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Speaker 1: everything has been trauma for you. And I think that again,

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Speaker 1: social media, unfortunately, can help promote that same theme or theory.

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Speaker 1: We see a lot of these posts that say all

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Speaker 1: the different things are trauma, You've been traumatized, if this

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Speaker 1: or this is a trauma response. That's the other one

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Speaker 1: that kind of comes with this. Yes, yes, yes, not

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Speaker 1: liking apples is a trauma response, right. It's a're desiring

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Speaker 1: to eat all of your food on your plate and

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Speaker 1: having difficulty throwing it away or walking away from it

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Speaker 1: is a trauma response because maybe it's a child, you

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Speaker 1: didn't have food, you know, just yeah, everything is a trauma,

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Speaker 1: so that all of that goes together. It's the same

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Speaker 1: way in which we have really diluted what trauma is,

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Speaker 1: which I think also then serves to to be harmful

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Speaker 1: to people who have had traumatic experiences because now people

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Speaker 1: are having a harder time naming that, they're feeling more

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Speaker 1: confused around that, they're feeling invalidated by like, well, if

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Speaker 1: that's trauma, what is this? What was my experience of it?

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Speaker 1: That's what you're talking about. It minimizes the seriousness of trauma.

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Speaker 1: You know that you can experience things that are unpleasant,

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Speaker 1: that are negative, and it not necessarily means that I

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Speaker 1: have PTSD as a result of that. And so, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're right. We have someone else who endured something where

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Speaker 1: harm or death or the idea of serious death you know,

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Speaker 1: was actually real, and they have nightmares, they have these memories,

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Speaker 1: they have severe anxiety, they're waiting for the other shoe

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Speaker 1: to drop. And so you're listening to someone say that

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Speaker 1: this experience at the grocery store was you know, traumatic

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Speaker 1: for them, or they have PTSD as a result, and

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Speaker 1: you're looking at your thing and it's like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: what is happening with me? And I think that's what

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Speaker 1: people are bonding over. They have these experiences and it's

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Speaker 1: like why do I behave this way and why do

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Speaker 1: I act this way? And it's not necessarily trauma. It's like, ooh,

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Speaker 1: we've had this shared experience. It does not mean I

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Speaker 1: have PTSD from my childhood or from my relationship, and

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Speaker 1: we need to talk about that in that way. But

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Speaker 1: if you are, you know, having nightmares, if you are

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Speaker 1: having severe anxiety, if you are unable to kind of

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Speaker 1: function as a result of kind of what's happened to you,

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Speaker 1: that's a different thing and it requires a different intervention.

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Speaker 1: But I think it's all gotten lost. So where the

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Speaker 1: public awareness is, there's like awareness of what yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I mean so it does feel like there's a

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Speaker 1: growing conversation and under you have all heard it about it,

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Speaker 1: you know, big T trauma versus little T trauma, right,

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Speaker 1: and so it feels like there is space and I

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Speaker 1: think rightfully so for us to like expand our understanding

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Speaker 1: of all the things that could be trauma, right, I

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Speaker 1: think for a long time we thought only war and

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Speaker 1: like you know, seeing somebody's shot were traumatic experiences. So

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Speaker 1: of course now we understand that there are tons of

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Speaker 1: other things that can be traumatic. How do we help

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Speaker 1: people differentiate what is considered trauma? Like what are the

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Speaker 1: guidelines around what we can define as trauma versus something

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Speaker 1: that may have been unpleasant but may not necessarily fall

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Speaker 1: within the realms of trauma. I think like when in doubt,

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Speaker 1: I go back to what it is that we know,

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Speaker 1: like you know, our d s M for example, It's like,

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Speaker 1: I really do want to go back to how do

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Speaker 1: we define something that is, like, you know, traumatic, Like

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Speaker 1: what are so I can validate your experience and the

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Speaker 1: fext of your experience without necessarily saying you need to

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Speaker 1: be labeled as having trauma or labeled as having PTSD

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Speaker 1: and sometimes helping you to understand like, hey, this is

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Speaker 1: what happened, So do you have clarity? Is it PTSD

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Speaker 1: or is it necessarily traumatic? Like that was a horrible experience,

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Speaker 1: a very unfortunate, unfair experience, but really going back to, okay,

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Speaker 1: what are the results of that experience, and so that

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Speaker 1: they can see clearly, okay, everything isn't traumatic, but I

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Speaker 1: do have increased anxiety, I am having nightmares, I am

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Speaker 1: detached or I am kind of dissociating or detaching from experiences.

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Speaker 1: I do feel numb, so really going through with them.

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Speaker 1: So it's not discrediting your experience or saying that's traumatic

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Speaker 1: and that's not traumatic, but saying hey, here's how we

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Speaker 1: define trauma and let's look at it, and having them

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Speaker 1: to help me with Okay, is this what your experience is?

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Speaker 1: And so you tell me if this is considered very

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Speaker 1: traumatic for you based on this criterion definition. So there's

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Speaker 1: no bias in there. So they get to step outside

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Speaker 1: of the experience a little bit themselves and see, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know what, this was severe, this was very impact fold.

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Speaker 1: There's some residual stuff, and so they can decide what

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Speaker 1: is traumatic and what is not traumatic. So I love standards,

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Speaker 1: I love some procedures there. I love something that is

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Speaker 1: common language, that is research based, and so when they

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Speaker 1: do experience something traumatically hopefully not, it's like, okay, now

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Speaker 1: that's what this is. And so also I don't like

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Speaker 1: people to walk away and it's like, hey, I have

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Speaker 1: trauma from my past relationship and so now you've labeled

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Speaker 1: yourself as this person with significant trauma will know you

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Speaker 1: were greatly heartbroken, you even perhaps were depressed as a

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Speaker 1: result of your last relationship. But I don't want you

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Speaker 1: to give yourself labels in terms that are not founded

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Speaker 1: or grounded in any research that don't have any basis.

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Speaker 1: So I always go back to how do we define it?

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Speaker 1: And having them to help us with is this your experience?

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Speaker 1: That is the crux, right of what gets missed in

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Speaker 1: social media exchanges or interactions. There's not room for kind

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Speaker 1: of that deeper process and not even having kind of

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Speaker 1: the language right or their criteria to be able to

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Speaker 1: kind of in a deeper way kind of process or

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Speaker 1: kind of explore where anybody might fall right on any

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Speaker 1: of that spectrum. And I think what also gets missed

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Speaker 1: the conversations that I'm able to have with clients, you know,

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Speaker 1: trauma does come up is one we are also continue

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Speaker 1: to assess for safety. So I'll talk to clients a

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Speaker 1: lot about ways in which I tend to differentiate how

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Speaker 1: I'm hearing their narratives and how they're experiencing their bodies.

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Speaker 1: Is that something happens, either they have an experience, they

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Speaker 1: witness something that hears something the vicarious trauma that changes

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Speaker 1: their sense of safety in the world, and that we're

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Speaker 1: still also looking at these criteria because if that sense

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Speaker 1: of safety has changed, then you might be feeling more anxious,

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Speaker 1: you might be feeling more depressed, you might be feeling

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Speaker 1: more numb. Right, So kind of pairing that with has

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Speaker 1: something shifted in terms of how safe you feel in

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Speaker 1: this world, in this dynamic, in this area, in this relationship,

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Speaker 1: in whatever it might be. And that is a way

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Speaker 1: in which I can help kind of bridges the gap

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Speaker 1: right between the criteria and the subjective experience of this right,

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Speaker 1: which is why I recognize that on the flip side

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Speaker 1: of that, I know we also say, like, you can't

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Speaker 1: tell somebody they weren't traumatized by something, right, because it's

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Speaker 1: about their subjective experience of this thing. But what I'm

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Speaker 1: always look king form and assessing is safety did something shift?

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Speaker 1: Where now the way in which you experience your sense

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Speaker 1: of safety and security in this scenario like environment, has

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Speaker 1: that been inevitably shifted after this thing happened Historically, Like

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Speaker 1: you were saying, Dr Joy that you were only allowed

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Speaker 1: to name trauma as it related to war, a car

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Speaker 1: accident specific kinds of violence, right that people haven't historically

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Speaker 1: thought about community violence or you know, systemic violence as traumatic. Right,

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Speaker 1: They don't see poverty as violence when I do see

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Speaker 1: poverty as violence. So also being able to expand those things, right,

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Speaker 1: but really talking to people about how safe they feel

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Speaker 1: given these different factors, and that helps me lean into

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Speaker 1: whether or not they might feel traumatized by this. And

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Speaker 1: that also doesn't mean that we're using that language if

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Speaker 1: we do discern, right, that this was a traumatic experience.

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Speaker 1: I always lead with what the client might name, because

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Speaker 1: a lot of my clients don't want to name trauma.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't traumatized, they don't want that label. It also

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Speaker 1: seems like a lot of people want this label these days,

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Speaker 1: Like people like want to have a story of difficulty,

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Speaker 1: they want to have a story of trauma. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are beginning to see some kind

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Speaker 1: of like social value. Those are things that I'm noticing

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Speaker 1: on social media. Or it's just like it's like I

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Speaker 1: want to be traumatized. You don't really want to be traumatized,

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Speaker 1: but like you think you do because maybe now you

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Speaker 1: are seeing on social media that that's the way in

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Speaker 1: which people are connecting. So I mean noticing that actually

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Speaker 1: with the young I'm probably millennial me and under are,

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Speaker 1: they are seeking these ways right to be like I

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Speaker 1: have this, I have this, that horrible thing happened to me.

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Speaker 1: I've never been the same, so like, let's connect. I'm

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Speaker 1: actually seeing a shift in people rejecting a narrative of

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Speaker 1: of having been harmed or kind of having trauma to

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Speaker 1: I do I do? I do me too, me too.

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Speaker 1: So I think that's also an interesting like phenomenon that

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Speaker 1: we're now seeing shift. You're so right, It's like there's

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Speaker 1: this badge of honor. But I think it's the spite

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Speaker 1: the fact that I have been traumatized. I am still

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Speaker 1: like in school. You know, these things like this badge

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Speaker 1: of hon it like I endure trauma. I endure this,

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Speaker 1: or my childhood was traumatic. What does it do? Does

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Speaker 1: invalidate the reason you know that I'm I'm a little

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Speaker 1: delayed in this, this and this because I've had to

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Speaker 1: overcome a whole lot because of this trauma. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've still been able to achieve this despite this, you know,

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Speaker 1: this trauma. So yeah, I've been seeing it where it's

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Speaker 1: a thing where everything is like this is traumatic, or

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Speaker 1: we bond it because of this trauma, and look at

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Speaker 1: what we've been able to attain because of this trauma.

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Speaker 1: And I think along the same lines in this trauma,

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Speaker 1: and I know this is probably about to be like

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh. It's like everything is triggering, you know.

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Speaker 1: So that's another way I am triggered. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know what, the store was closed. I feel triggered,

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Speaker 1: you know. So you know, and there are real triggers

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Speaker 1: when we talk about trauma things, it sounds, smells all

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Speaker 1: of those things that remind us of a traumatic event.

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Speaker 1: So triggers are really real. But also it's become such

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Speaker 1: a common term. Yeah, I feel triggered because of this,

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Speaker 1: this and that. So it's it's all of that. So

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Speaker 1: not only is it a badge of honor seemingly in

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Speaker 1: the social world where oh, you've experienced trauma and you've

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Speaker 1: been able to triumph over it, or you have something

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Speaker 1: that's in common, there's a sense of belonging with other

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Speaker 1: people who have endured trauma. It's this thing of like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I feel triggered. This thing triggers me. So another word,

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Speaker 1: So y'all have said a whole lot that I feel

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Speaker 1: like I'm trying to like figure out because I agree

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Speaker 1: with you in that I am also seeing that especially

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Speaker 1: I think with younger people, right, and I wonder what

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Speaker 1: it is about. And of course we are a psychologist, right,

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Speaker 1: so I think that's our natural inclination, like what's the

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Speaker 1: story here? Like what's happening? But it does, in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways feel like people are just very excited

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Speaker 1: to finally have language to be able to describe what's happening, right,

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Speaker 1: And so you know, I don't necessarily pathologize it. I

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Speaker 1: don't think that's what y'all are saying either, but it

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Speaker 1: does feel like people finally have language to describe, like

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Speaker 1: this awful thing happened to me, or I realized now

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Speaker 1: that everybody's experience wasn't like that, and so now I

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Speaker 1: have a name to call it. To your earlier point,

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Speaker 1: dr a around like we as therapist kind of did this, right?

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Speaker 1: I want to kind of take a step back and

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Speaker 1: kind of figure out is there a way too maybe

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Speaker 1: in some ways course correct? Or is it is it

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Speaker 1: a problem? I mean, because it does very much feel

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Speaker 1: like yes, Like I think that that is a lot

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Speaker 1: of our goal, right is to be able to give

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Speaker 1: people something, right, Like we do understand how broken the

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Speaker 1: mental health system is. We want to try to make

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Speaker 1: things more accessible, but I think there has to be

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Speaker 1: a limit, right, And so when you just see a carousel,

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Speaker 1: you know you can't go too far with like talking

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Speaker 1: to any one person in a comment section about like

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Speaker 1: what their personal experience of something has been. And so

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Speaker 1: it feels really hard to know, like, Okay, is there

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Speaker 1: a way to do this that is like helping people

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Speaker 1: or are we actually doing more harm by like giving

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Speaker 1: this information without an actual contained way to help somebody

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Speaker 1: fully explore what's happening with them. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: this answers it completely dr Joy, but I think you

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Speaker 1: make a really good point. I think that's probably where

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Speaker 1: we struggle, because we see the cons are the dangers,

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Speaker 1: the potential dangers in you know, kind of letting these

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Speaker 1: terms be free flowing out in the world. But the

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Speaker 1: good side of it is kind of what we've always wanted.

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Speaker 1: I think we're saying that it's using some of these

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Speaker 1: terms raises the awareness that a person can have these

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Speaker 1: various experiences and it can look a different way. I

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Speaker 1: think we want to feel that we are not alone

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Speaker 1: in our experiences. So now we're talking about things that

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Speaker 1: we have experienced, we're talking about our traumas, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about our childhood. So it's letting us know that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're not alone. This is more common than not. So

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Speaker 1: that's the benefit and the beauty of that these words

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Speaker 1: are causing conversation. So I think it also changes the

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Speaker 1: narrative when we talk about kind of the shame that's

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Speaker 1: attached to mental illness and that and the attached I

397
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Speaker 1: think that it changes the narrative where when we think

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Speaker 1: a person has been say, let's say traumatized, or they

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Speaker 1: may have and I'm gonna use air quotes here high

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Speaker 1: functioning depression or whatever, it changes. I know, don't roll

401
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Speaker 1: your eyes at me, I know, but it changes the narrative.

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Speaker 1: Oh you guys are giving me those sharp eyes and

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Speaker 1: look down. Changes the narrative of how we have seen

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Speaker 1: these things in the past. And so you know, we

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Speaker 1: think about what has perhaps trauma looked like when someone's

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Speaker 1: experienced something really really like seriously traumatic, or what has

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Speaker 1: depression looked like? And we've been afraid to necessarily claim

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Speaker 1: or own our experiences because we're afraid of like oh,

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Speaker 1: if you say this person is depressed or they've been

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Speaker 1: through something traumatic, it looks this one way, and we're

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Speaker 1: talking about it. So it allows us to see that,

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Speaker 1: you know what, it doesn't look this one way. You

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Speaker 1: don't have to be a shame if you've experienced depression

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Speaker 1: or something that's really really traumatic. So yes, that's the

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Speaker 1: pros and we're like, yes, finally we're having these conversations.

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Speaker 1: But then we're like whoa, whoa, whoa, you know, rilling

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Speaker 1: it in some And so maybe an answer is to

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Speaker 1: allow the convert, you know, as much as we can,

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Speaker 1: because we don't have all power, but you know, to

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Speaker 1: see these conversations and for us not to water than

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Speaker 1: when they're being used incorrectly. So being able to say,

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Speaker 1: I do understand what you're talking about. These reoccurring thoughts,

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Speaker 1: you know, are definitely a sign of PTSD. So being

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Speaker 1: able to validate what is real in the sense of

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Speaker 1: how we define it or yes, being in bed for

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Speaker 1: days and still going to work, that is definitely how

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Speaker 1: depression can look. So how we don't kind of join

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Speaker 1: into the party when we realize that it's going in

429
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,720
Speaker 1: the wrong direction. So I don't have to you know,

430
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: wave a flag and say stop it, stop talking that way,

431
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 1: that's wrong. No, I love the conversation. I love that

432
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 1: we're honest, open and talking about it, but making sure

433
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,360
Speaker 1: that we are honoring the work, the research. We're honoring

434
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,600
Speaker 1: what we know to be true. So just as we

435
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 1: started it, you know, it's out there. Now, what are

436
00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:55,240
Speaker 1: you doing and being honest with yourself? Like you know,

437
00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: am I doing reels talking about trauma bonding? And am

438
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: I doing it the wrong way? Our health is not

439
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:04,439
Speaker 1: for likes and for like re posting to go viral.

440
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: If we don't want to at the expense of those things,

441
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 1: compromise like the health, because it's a real deal. I

442
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: absolutely agree. I think that in general, therapist in some

443
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:15,919
Speaker 1: of these social spaces and having these conversations and the

444
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 1: conversations happening, are doing more good than they are doing harm.

445
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:23,440
Speaker 1: I think there are spaces that are much better at

446
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,439
Speaker 1: this than other spaces right in terms of what they

447
00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: are sharing and how they are sharing and how they

448
00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:34,480
Speaker 1: are are nuancing it. But I also recognize that given

449
00:23:34,520 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: that this is happening through certain media, it's limited. So

450
00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:40,639
Speaker 1: I think that what's also happening that we're really getting

451
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 1: caught up in this needs to happen in thirty seconds.

452
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: I need to explain this really really heavy nuance layered

453
00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:53,199
Speaker 1: subjective personal thing in sixty seconds in a reel in

454
00:23:53,440 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: a carousel and a hit on Twitter when you only

455
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:57,600
Speaker 1: have a hundred I'm not on Twitter a hundred and forty. No,

456
00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 1: it's to eight characters whatever. It is right that with

457
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,719
Speaker 1: us trying to use that particular forum to get this

458
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: information out in this mass way, we've conformed, We've changed

459
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 1: the information, We've shifted what we can even say to

460
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: try to make sure that people get it. But again,

461
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,360
Speaker 1: people can only get but so much so I think

462
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: we've also lost the art of the subjective language in

463
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: that because of how we're trying to make it through.

464
00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: We can have hours of conversations with clients. We can't

465
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: do that on social media. Allow mean, some people are

466
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: I'm sure, but like, we can't do that on social media.

467
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 1: So it turns into you've got this many characters. People

468
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:38,760
Speaker 1: don't read captions, right, it turns into all this stuff

469
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: where it's like I gotta get it here. And then

470
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,480
Speaker 1: you add to how social media is also kind of

471
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: changed how a lot of the mental health industry is

472
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: also kind of accessing clients and business and all this

473
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: stuff that people want to go viral. So you want

474
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 1: to get the thing, you want to say the thing.

475
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 1: And if you say that this is trauma bonding and

476
00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 1: you know that trauma bonding is a big thing, you're

477
00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: gonna get more likes and follows and shares and all

478
00:25:01,800 --> 00:25:03,720
Speaker 1: that stuff in terms of whatever that can turn into

479
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 1: for you. I think the larger problem is this intersection

480
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,639
Speaker 1: that we're seeing at the mental health industry. Lack of

481
00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 1: mental health care, lack of enough mental health professionals, increased need,

482
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 1: and then we've got social media as this quick way

483
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 1: to try to help people, and it's very very limited.

484
00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: It's really really limited to to the knowledge that we have,

485
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: and it's really limited to the care that is needed.

486
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,680
Speaker 1: But if that is our funnel, then we go based

487
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:32,439
Speaker 1: on that, and I think that is largely why and

488
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: how the harm is happening in this way. I also

489
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 1: recognized that because mental health and or mental illness has

490
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: become in some ways a bit more trendy for industries

491
00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 1: and for a number of industries to kind of jump

492
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 1: on and say that they're responding to and really valuing

493
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: people can also take advantage of the increased popularity of

494
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,920
Speaker 1: it and are not there to really offer care. They're

495
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,280
Speaker 1: there to make money. So I think that's a whole

496
00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 1: other piece of this. But us talking about the inter

497
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 1: section of technology and the certain forums that we're doing

498
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: this on to be able to spread more awareness creates

499
00:26:06,280 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: this kind of bottleneck, right, So people are dancing to

500
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: things that people are doing different things to try to

501
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 1: kind of get people to the information. But we don't

502
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 1: really know what people are getting from this. They're laughing

503
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 1: at and that's this, but it's it's really incongruent oftentimes

504
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 1: with the content that we are sharing and trying to

505
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,600
Speaker 1: kind of share really heavy things. So I really don't

506
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: know how it's landing with people. More from my group

507
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: check conversation after the break. So just to make sure

508
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: so that no one comes for our girl, I think

509
00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 1: we just said today it's because you know, in the

510
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:51,560
Speaker 1: very beginning, you started off by saying like, hey, we

511
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 1: did it this to ourself, and you know, because we

512
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: know better. I think what you're saying, it's very possible

513
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:02,359
Speaker 1: that we unintentionally in our quest to increase awareness and

514
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: because of the lack of you know there's a greater

515
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: need and demand than actual resources at this moment. You're

516
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 1: saying in our trying to get all of this information

517
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 1: out in thirty seconds and to make it where this

518
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:16,760
Speaker 1: is a really important topic, and I want to make

519
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: sure that you know our audiences get this information that

520
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:24,199
Speaker 1: we have very likely compromised unintentionally the information that we

521
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 1: put out why the group, I mean, listen, what is

522
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,520
Speaker 1: we doing? But also I also with that, I also

523
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: think it is ethically our responsibility to take responsibility for

524
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 1: how we are sharing information and what we are saying

525
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 1: and what we are not saying, and for us to

526
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 1: kind of do our own internal work around what is

527
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 1: the motivation and what is the goal for this that

528
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,119
Speaker 1: is our own like self a therapist work that again,

529
00:27:48,920 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 1: people out there have no clue that those are things

530
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 1: that we are supposed to be doing and navigating ethically.

531
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: So I think it's also on us to to take

532
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,000
Speaker 1: that responsibility for what we are sharing, how we are

533
00:27:59,040 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: sharing it, and of really being clear about what the

534
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,600
Speaker 1: motivation is and if we're not doing that self awareness work,

535
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,400
Speaker 1: this is why these things will also continue to absolutely

536
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: it becomes what is driving It's like, okay, you want

537
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: to get your followers or your likes, or you want

538
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: to go viral, or you want to get more clients

539
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,680
Speaker 1: or whatever this is you want to be on this panel.

540
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: It's like, we have to be self aware to know

541
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,640
Speaker 1: like at this point you are compromising or to put

542
00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: this out in thirty seconds is doing more harm than

543
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:28,520
Speaker 1: it is good. And so being aware again, we cannot

544
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,439
Speaker 1: compromise what we're ethically sworn to do and give and

545
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: provide and the care that people and trust with us.

546
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: We have just to keep that at the forefront because

547
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 1: otherwise you're doing these reels and it may seem fun

548
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: and there's more visibility, but you're right, once it's out there,

549
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:46,480
Speaker 1: we have no control over how it's being interpreted or

550
00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: where they decided to post that information. And although we

551
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: want to increase awareness and put it out there, there's

552
00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 1: a responsibility of person, you know, especially when it becomes

553
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: you are a doctor such and such. It's like, okay, well,

554
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: the doctor such and such said that this is trauma bunding,

555
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: and now I'm going I'm telling my family because of this,

556
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: this and this, and so it goes back to what

557
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: we're saying earlier to be mindful of am I watering

558
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:10,520
Speaker 1: this or am I adding gasoline onto this fire? So

559
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:12,440
Speaker 1: if you feel like you have to be engaged in

560
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 1: this conversation, how are we going to be engaged in

561
00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 1: this conversation? So it's like, oh, that's cute, and I

562
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 1: don't have to take it personal that you decided to

563
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 1: use that word. It's not personal. It's like, I love

564
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:23,960
Speaker 1: that we're having a conversation about this, but let me

565
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 1: you know, my little whatever fifty characters are going to

566
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 1: tell the truth basically. So another term that comes up

567
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 1: quite often is gas lighting. So gas lighting and I

568
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: have also seen a new spin on the term self

569
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: gas lighting, which I was not aware of. So this

570
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: is another term related to an old movie right around

571
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,640
Speaker 1: this man and wife or husband and wife, and he

572
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: was like turning off the gas or turning on I

573
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: can't remember, to make her think that like the lights

574
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,640
Speaker 1: were on when they really were and or something like that, right,

575
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: but to kind of make her feel like she couldn't

576
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: us her own It was like the heat she was feeling.

577
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: It was like the gas and he was turning it

578
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: off and on, so she would be cold and need

579
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 1: a blanket and right, so making her feel like she

580
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: could not trust her own experiences, right, like she couldn't

581
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 1: trust her own knowledge, and that is I think a

582
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: hallmark sign of narcissistic personality disorder, right, which it is

583
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: often tied closely to you know. So again it feels

584
00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: like this is one of those terms that has escaped

585
00:30:25,120 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: the confined of where it started and now anything that

586
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: is dishonest or anybody who is not being completely truthful

587
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: like oh, they were gaslighting me, And so I want

588
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: to hear from you both, like what are some of

589
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 1: the dangers of again this kind of a term not

590
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: necessarily being used correctly, and did we define like what

591
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 1: it really is? Like, hey, it is psychological manipulation right

592
00:30:51,880 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: where the abuser is like sowing the self doubt and

593
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: intentionally trying to cause confusion in the victim's mind. So

594
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 1: this is what it is. That could be a lie

595
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: or you're trying to play mind games or you're trying

596
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,840
Speaker 1: to trick me. But it does not necessarily mean that

597
00:31:05,880 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: I have been like gas lits or you are guys

598
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 1: lighting me. And I think you named it. It's the

599
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: piece about it being intentional. So where I hear it

600
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: get really murky for a lot of people is that

601
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,680
Speaker 1: when somebody is disagreeing with you, that they are gaslighting you.

602
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: If somebody just isn't in the same kind of space

603
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: with you, doesn't maybe believe what you have said, there's

604
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: an argument about it. They don't see things the same

605
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: way that you see things. Now, what has come out

606
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: of that is that you are gaslighting me, right, because

607
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 1: you do not believe that I have had this experience

608
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,440
Speaker 1: and I think that Again, it has to be noted

609
00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: that this is about intentional manipulation, where somebody is denying

610
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:45,240
Speaker 1: your experience of something and they're trying to also make

611
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: you question your lived experience. It is not them not

612
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: understanding you. It is not not agreeing with you, right.

613
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: It is not them arguing with you. It is not

614
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 1: them not believing that something happened. It's them trying to

615
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,120
Speaker 1: buy different words by different kind of version, different actions

616
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,320
Speaker 1: get you to not believe yourself so that you would

617
00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: more than likely become more dependent on them, right, because

618
00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: in you being confused, you would be more vulnerable, and

619
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: in your vulnerability, you would gravitate back towards them. So

620
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: it is a power play, right. But people disagreeing with

621
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: you mostly is not because they're trying to get power

622
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: over you or confuse you. They are literally having a

623
00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,360
Speaker 1: different experience of the same thing. And I think that

624
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: is really difficult for people to discern when they feel

625
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 1: activated right, when they want to feel understood, when they

626
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,600
Speaker 1: want to feel cared for, when they want to feel seen,

627
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 1: and somebody doesn't. It's really disregulating for some people. And

628
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 1: now we've got this term to be able to add

629
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 1: to it, and again in thinking about the ways in

630
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 1: which these days we are very short on language, so

631
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: that fits it. Well, Okay, you're denying my experience. You

632
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:54,600
Speaker 1: must be gaslighting mess. There's so many other options of

633
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: what is happening here, and I think that we are

634
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: removing the different options and the nuances of what really

635
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: happened and relationships. Yes, absolutely, and I love it. Dr A,

636
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: you're saying, hey, just because I don't agree with you,

637
00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: or perhaps I don't understand your perspective or your experience,

638
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: or I don't quite believe it happened that way. I

639
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: think that if we automatically latch onto that this is

640
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: gas lighting, then you've said it like your gas lighting me.

641
00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: It's like a cascade, Like now you're going down this

642
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,920
Speaker 1: path and it becomes all of these other things that

643
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 1: are attached with a person who legitimately gas lights, And

644
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: so I think it reduces our opportunity for like a resolution.

645
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: If I believe that you don't understand me, or if

646
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: I believe that, okay, you know what I see, you disagree,

647
00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:39,640
Speaker 1: let's have some conversation about it. If I'm looking at

648
00:33:39,640 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: it from those lens, then we can kind of have

649
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: a resolution. This thing does not have to become bigger.

650
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: But once I've said that you are gas lighting me,

651
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:50,320
Speaker 1: I'm activated, you're gas lighting me, I'm going hard now.

652
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: And this thing that started out as something significant but

653
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: not as big, has now turned into something big. And

654
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: often what I've seen in doing couples work, it's a

655
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: term that Okay, maybe the one person is familiar with

656
00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: it and another person is not as familiar with it.

657
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: So then what do we go Do you said I'm

658
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: gas lighting you? Gaslighting you? So then the other person

659
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: goes to look it up, and there's nowhere to go

660
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,319
Speaker 1: but down from there. When you start to look up

661
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: what it says the true definition of gas lighting that

662
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,279
Speaker 1: I'm this horrible, horrible person, and now why are you

663
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: with me if I'm so horrible and I'm you know,

664
00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:26,360
Speaker 1: you're saying I'm manipulating. So instead of being able to discuss,

665
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,320
Speaker 1: you know, what are the behaviors that that you're seeing

666
00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 1: that you're not happy with compassion or empathy or let's

667
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: work on communicating your feelings, it just does not give

668
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: us the opportunity to be able to deal with what

669
00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: perhaps is the core issue we're experiencing here because we've

670
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:45,080
Speaker 1: already attached this label to it of your gas lighting me. Yeah,

671
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 1: And I do feel like this is the perfect segue

672
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 1: into discussing narcissism, right, which is gas lighting is first cousin, right,

673
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 1: you know, because I do think, you know, like we

674
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: talked about earlier, people want to understand their relationships, right, Like,

675
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: we want to understand ourselves, and we want to staying

676
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:02,160
Speaker 1: like who we are in relationship, and we want to

677
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: understand our partners. And so I think this has become

678
00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 1: one of those again topics where it feels like, oh,

679
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: this person does this, this, and this, they are narcissists, right,

680
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: when really we know that very few people actually meet

681
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: the criteria for a narcissistic personality disorder, right, and so

682
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 1: kind of again throwing around this term that this person

683
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: is a narcissist like you mentioned Dr Joy. Okay, now

684
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: that you've labeled them as this, like, is there any

685
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: way for a resolution? Is there any opportunity for discussion

686
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:34,960
Speaker 1: for or for us to get on the same page

687
00:35:35,400 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 1: if you've now labeled this other person as a narcissist?

688
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,279
Speaker 1: And you know what happens like once you label something like, oh,

689
00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: it's a beautiful day outside, then you see the beauty

690
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 1: in it. It's a bad day, then you see the

691
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: bad things in the day. So once you label a person, ask,

692
00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, like you're a narcissist. And guess what,

693
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:52,400
Speaker 1: Now I'm starting to pick out all the things that

694
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: you know, I feel a narcissist does, Like look at you.

695
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: You know you're calling me, expect me to answer. I

696
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 1: couldn't wait for me to call back. And you know,

697
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,000
Speaker 1: it's like, what is how copening here? Because you made

698
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:04,319
Speaker 1: up in your mind that this person is narcissistic or

699
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 1: you know you're wanting me to help you. It's like,

700
00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's a narcissist, And so it

701
00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: just leads us down this path of where there's just

702
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:13,719
Speaker 1: not seen to be a good end. And again we

703
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: can't resolve or it's difficult to resolve because I've automatically

704
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,480
Speaker 1: attached this definition to you. Yeah, and again it's the

705
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:23,360
Speaker 1: problem of the lack of nuance, right, that there's a

706
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 1: difference between someone exhibiting narcissistic traits, which reach our shows

707
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 1: many of us have narcissistic traits. It can actually be

708
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: really useful for us to have some narcissary trades, depending

709
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 1: on how we're using them to kind of move through

710
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: different scenarios or stay motivated or you know, boost our

711
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: self esteem. There's a difference between having narcissistic traits and

712
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,319
Speaker 1: having narcissistic personality disorder. Right, But people put that all

713
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 1: together and just say that you are a narcissist. Right,

714
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,440
Speaker 1: So now we have this kind of identity, right that

715
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:53,799
Speaker 1: it's formed with this person, and that misses all of

716
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 1: the nuances and all of the criteria that we as

717
00:36:56,480 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 1: mental health professionals. No, you need to meet pretty significant

718
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 1: criteria for a certain amount of time in order to

719
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 1: be diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. And I also recognized

720
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 1: that what the research shows are kind of what people

721
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: think is that you know, more men are narcissists, right,

722
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 1: so that we've also got this like gender conversation and

723
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 1: dynamic around it. And because people don't understand the statistics

724
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,879
Speaker 1: like we do, that it's actually pretty rare, right, it

725
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 1: seems really common, but it's it's actually fairly rare in

726
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: terms of general population. But there were maybe eighty five

727
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: percent of the women in this chat that said that

728
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: they were dating a narcissists or had dated narcissists. And

729
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,760
Speaker 1: in my mind, what I said to myself was, unless

730
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: y'all have all been with the same three people, that

731
00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:48,560
Speaker 1: is statistically not possible, right, statistically not it. Absolutely, you

732
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: were in relationships where you did not feel loved, you

733
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,440
Speaker 1: did not feel cared for, you do not feel understood,

734
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,799
Speaker 1: you do not feel met. Somebody said something that was

735
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:00,239
Speaker 1: harsh to you or mean or harmful. But all those

736
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 1: things also don't equate to narcissist because there's so many

737
00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,440
Speaker 1: more criteria that, again the general population does not understand.

738
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,440
Speaker 1: And for a reason, there's a reason why there are

739
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: a certain number of people who have studied this for

740
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: years understand this in a certain way, and that's why

741
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: it's not kind of this widespread thing where we are

742
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 1: just naming everybody as narcissists. But again, sound bites, Instagram carousels, reels,

743
00:38:24,600 --> 00:38:27,680
Speaker 1: TikTok stuff. Right, the four signs are dating a narcissist.

744
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: There's more criteria than these four signs. Right, Trust what

745
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,880
Speaker 1: you're seeing online. You're trusting kind of where this information

746
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: is coming from. So you take that information as truth,

747
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: even if we can put all the disclaimers and all

748
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, right, you take that information is truth.

749
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 1: You apply it to your life, and you're probably gonna

750
00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: come across seventeen people who you would diagnose, right with

751
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder. And that's not that people get to

752
00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: be jerks and not kind and not nice and not

753
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:59,960
Speaker 1: love you and not and they're not narcissists, right, absolutely,

754
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,880
Speaker 1: dr Yeah, they get to be selfish, You get to

755
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 1: choose yourself over someone else, and it's not because you

756
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: are narcissistic. And I think one of the downsides of

757
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: doing that sometimes it's so so that it explains the

758
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 1: end of a relationship or why something did not work,

759
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 1: you know, so it becomes a oh, it didn't work

760
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 1: with this person because this person was a narcissist or

761
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 1: you know, this is my family because my parent was

762
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: a narcissist. And I think that if you put it

763
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: automatically on there, then it can decrease your desire to

764
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:36,879
Speaker 1: work on what happened in that relationship, because now it's

765
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,880
Speaker 1: been this other person's fault, so it's not necessarily a

766
00:39:38,920 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: youth thing. It's like, okay, because he was this way,

767
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: this way is this way, and the last two were

768
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 1: this way. But I think when you are able to

769
00:39:45,080 --> 00:39:48,040
Speaker 1: label the behaviors that didn't serve you in the relationship,

770
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: then you can really kind of look at yourself and say,

771
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: you know, how did I find myself in this relationship?

772
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,360
Speaker 1: What were the things? So maybe the fact that this

773
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:56,600
Speaker 1: person was so confident of the fact that they had

774
00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: these self care days. You know, it was appealing in

775
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: the very beginning of the relation ship until you got

776
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:03,279
Speaker 1: in it and it's like, okay, we haven't gone out,

777
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:05,480
Speaker 1: and but you're going on the self care day. So

778
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: now it seems like you're so selfish. You want what

779
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 1: you want and you know you have these um were

780
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: boundaries are healthy, But in the context of this, when

781
00:40:11,719 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 1: I've labeled you as a narcissist, then this boundary becomes

782
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,759
Speaker 1: a problem. So I think that sometimes we do that

783
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:19,839
Speaker 1: and we put it on the other person in terms

784
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 1: of their narcissism in a way to not sit with

785
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: ourselves and to say, Okay, you know, how did I

786
00:40:24,880 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: find myself on this type of relationship? If the last

787
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: three men you dated have been narcissists, then you know,

788
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 1: to take a look at self and say, what's going

789
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:34,560
Speaker 1: on here? Why am I attracting? What is appealing to

790
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:37,000
Speaker 1: me about these certain characteristics? And so I think it's

791
00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: easy to say, oh, that's what it is, girl. Yeah,

792
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: that makes sense because you know, I'm dope, I'm awesome,

793
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 1: I'm wonderful. So it was the fact that X, Y,

794
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: and Z. So it's so much danger and automatically labeling

795
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 1: it there. So like you said, you can have characteristics

796
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: of it and not actually have the disorder because we

797
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,880
Speaker 1: know how difficult it is to reach that criteria. And

798
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: if all of the women in this group all data narcissists,

799
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: then we need to figure out where they are because

800
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: that's a great research study. How hard is to find them?

801
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:10,760
Speaker 1: So yeah, more from my group chat conversation after the break.

802
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: So what y'all are talking about, you know, in terms

803
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: of labeling, it does feel like there's some kind of

804
00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:27,719
Speaker 1: like armchair diagnosing going on right, just like you know,

805
00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 1: the Monday morning quarterbacks, Like it definitely feels like there

806
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 1: are some armchair diagnosing of like, oh, I see all

807
00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: of this stuff and this meets the criteria that I

808
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 1: saw on this Instagram post, So you now have narcissistic

809
00:41:38,160 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 1: personality disorder. But in addition to people I feel like

810
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: doing some of that diagnosing of others. It also feels

811
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: like there's a lot of self diagnosing, and y'all have

812
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 1: kind of talked about that some, but I do want

813
00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: to hear your thoughts on the increase. I think that

814
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,839
Speaker 1: we are seeing in terms of people looking at something

815
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,000
Speaker 1: that they see on socials, of a video that they

816
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: see on YouTube, and then diagnosing themselves and what are

817
00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: the dangers there? But also why is it happening? Right?

818
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: I think for a lot of the reasons we talked

819
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 1: about in terms of the system, but I do think

820
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 1: we have to be careful. I think people have to

821
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 1: be careful in terms of diagnosing. So what are your

822
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,400
Speaker 1: thoughts about that. I think we have seen an increase

823
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 1: just with the adjunct to the increase in this information

824
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: being available online. Right, So not only related to mental health,

825
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 1: but we see you know the web ed D rabbit hole, right,

826
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 1: or the healthline rabbit hole right, that you can find anything.

827
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:32,280
Speaker 1: And again, I think it goes back to a limited

828
00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 1: understanding and kind of acceptance of the human experience, right,

829
00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: and that not everything is going to be pleasant all

830
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 1: the time. I think we got lost a long time

831
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 1: ago with this like you know, happiness goal and us

832
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 1: believing that happiness is the standard and that you should

833
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,399
Speaker 1: always feel like that and positive psychology. I think that

834
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,760
Speaker 1: has kind of created this setup where if anything feels

835
00:42:51,800 --> 00:42:55,240
Speaker 1: a right, it must be a problem. And then because

836
00:42:55,239 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 1: our brains literally right needs to solve problems, that kind

837
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 1: of figure out what's going and kind of cessed for threat.

838
00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: We've now got all this information at our fingertips, and

839
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: in point zero zero zero five seconds we can find

840
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: the five diagnoses of why I don't think that he

841
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: likes cats and he should like whatever the thing might be. Right.

842
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: So I think it's heavily related to our inability to

843
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,320
Speaker 1: as a society, our inability or kind of lack of

844
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:24,280
Speaker 1: understanding around tolerating distress, so that when distress is present,

845
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: it's really disregulating for us, and then we want to

846
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: get rid of it, so we go to find what

847
00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: are the ways to get rid of it? Who knows

848
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: about this thing that I might be experiencing, and then

849
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: that kind of sends us down whichever rabbit hole about

850
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: these things. And I also recognize that being able to

851
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: access a lot of this information online is another opportunity

852
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: for like self advocacy because I recognize the limits of

853
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,560
Speaker 1: health care and oftentimes when we go into different spaces work,

854
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 1: particularly for black women, where we're going in and talking

855
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: about what's going on with our bodies, we get denied,

856
00:43:55,920 --> 00:43:58,120
Speaker 1: we get rejected, we get dismissed. Somebody tells us that

857
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,759
Speaker 1: our pain is not this. So I recognize that there

858
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: is a part of this threshold that feels really important

859
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:07,959
Speaker 1: for us to access information so that we can take

860
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:11,399
Speaker 1: better care of ourselves in a system that historically has

861
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: not done the best. But it's that fine line of

862
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: that and wanting to use this information and be able

863
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:20,799
Speaker 1: to use the healthcare set and say, hey, I think

864
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 1: it might be this. I'm noticing this about myself. I'm

865
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:26,399
Speaker 1: the expert on me you're the expert on this. Can

866
00:44:26,440 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 1: we put that information together versus going into the office saying,

867
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,520
Speaker 1: I've got these three diagnoses, my daddy did it. This

868
00:44:33,600 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 1: is this, this is what you need to do, and

869
00:44:36,040 --> 00:44:39,160
Speaker 1: that is all I will accept. I think it's having

870
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 1: some flexibility and some magility around how we're using that information.

871
00:44:42,880 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: So you're exactly right. I think it goes back to

872
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: sitting with the human experience, and I think what we've

873
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 1: had the opportunity to do, whether we ask for it

874
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:53,560
Speaker 1: or not, as we seek to understand the human experience,

875
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,759
Speaker 1: we are seeking to understand our own personal experience. Why

876
00:44:56,760 --> 00:45:00,080
Speaker 1: do we experience life this way? So what is it

877
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: with me? And so as we're sitting in the house

878
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: trying to understand ourselves, what do we do? We look

879
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,640
Speaker 1: for information because they're problem solvers, and so where do

880
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:09,959
Speaker 1: we look for information in the palm of our hand?

881
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:12,600
Speaker 1: And so there's this social media where all of this

882
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 1: information is like, oh, I'm looking for dislike cats. You

883
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,480
Speaker 1: can look and you know, let's see who has used

884
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:19,719
Speaker 1: the hashtag dislike cats. And you know what, if it's

885
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 1: your lucky day is attached to some type of disorder,

886
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: and so you're seeking some type of understanding, in some

887
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: type of clarity, so we get it in that in

888
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,400
Speaker 1: terms of why is it happening? And we are experiencing,

889
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,879
Speaker 1: of course more distressed. The downside of that is, as

890
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:37,759
Speaker 1: we seek to have clarity, as we seek for we

891
00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:41,560
Speaker 1: seek information, as we seek understanding, we run the risk

892
00:45:41,680 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 1: of mislabeling ourselves. So you basically said, based on what

893
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 1: you found out here, whether it's web md, whether social media,

894
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: in these reels, okay, now I have this, and so

895
00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: what's as you're saying, Dr A, you want to be

896
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:55,880
Speaker 1: able to advocate for yourself. But what happens with a

897
00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 1: mislabeled misdiagnosis and then our treatment is definitely impacted. So

898
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, you feel that if you don't go to

899
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: a doctrine sometimes if you do, but if you don't,

900
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, now I have this or I have trauma.

901
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:08,640
Speaker 1: So now you're doing these other tools and techniques that

902
00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:11,239
Speaker 1: you have said that because I have trauma. Now I'm

903
00:46:11,239 --> 00:46:13,319
Speaker 1: doing these things that I've read about online because I'm

904
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,280
Speaker 1: treating my trauma. And so are we really healing the wound?

905
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 1: Are we really making it better? Or we making it worse?

906
00:46:18,719 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: Because we are now doing and engaging in things, interventions

907
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:23,800
Speaker 1: that are not even targeted at what this thing is

908
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: rooted in. So that's the downside of it. So I

909
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:27,680
Speaker 1: do get it. Or we want to be able to

910
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,080
Speaker 1: advocate for ourselves. We want to be able to educate ourselves.

911
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 1: So if we need to tell our provider this information,

912
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: we can. But if we're getting not so good information,

913
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,439
Speaker 1: we've attached this not so true label to ourselves, then

914
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: we're engaging in interventions and behaviors that are not necessarily

915
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 1: doing what we are wanting and expecting to do. And

916
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,520
Speaker 1: that's the unfortunate part. So I think that we seek

917
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: to know, we seek to understand, But there is that

918
00:46:53,560 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 1: fine line. Yeah, any given day, I got fourteen diagnoses

919
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:02,640
Speaker 1: and it is m any given day. Wasn't that everybody's

920
00:47:02,680 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: experience when we first took our abnormal cyclass, Like, oh,

921
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,320
Speaker 1: I definitely meet criteria sometimes all at the same time.

922
00:47:10,440 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: It's like all about all of them. Yeah, And I

923
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,880
Speaker 1: think human behavior is just so fascinating and so interesting.

924
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: Of course we want to know about ourselves, right, And

925
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: I think that's the point that like the general public

926
00:47:23,000 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: maybe doesn't always see that, Like even as people who

927
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: are trained. That was a part of our experience. But

928
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: you continue your training and then you realize like, no,

929
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:33,279
Speaker 1: you don't actually meet criteria for all of this, right.

930
00:47:33,520 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 1: But if you are just now introduced to all of

931
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:37,719
Speaker 1: these like oh, I can check this list off, but

932
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 1: there is no additional training or understanding or nuance to

933
00:47:40,920 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 1: go with it, then you just kind of stopped there,

934
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 1: as opposed to like continuing to learn more about why

935
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 1: it's not appropriate and why you don't actually need criteria

936
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,200
Speaker 1: for these things all right, And you think about the

937
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: relief when we said, oh I have all of these things,

938
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:56,920
Speaker 1: and the relief once you studied more and learn more,

939
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: it's like, Okay, I don't and it's like okay, good

940
00:48:00,239 --> 00:48:02,080
Speaker 1: because if I feel like I got all these things,

941
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: and then it's like I feel like my life is

942
00:48:03,560 --> 00:48:05,359
Speaker 1: like jacked up now. So then you know there are

943
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: these limits because I walk around carrying all of these things.

944
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,200
Speaker 1: I think what perhaps happens out in the world is

945
00:48:11,239 --> 00:48:13,560
Speaker 1: that you now feel like, okay, I have all of

946
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:16,719
Speaker 1: these things. And on one hand, it's like okay, now

947
00:48:16,719 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 1: I understand, okay, good, so now understand why I am

948
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 1: this way or why I feel this way. But once

949
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: that one thing turns into twelve, then how do you

950
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: operate now? Now you feel that I am perhaps damaged

951
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:31,439
Speaker 1: or there's some limits to me, and it's like, well,

952
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: it may not even be true. And so now you're

953
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 1: figuring you can't do this, or you can't marry, you

954
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 1: can't go to school, you can't whatever because of these things.

955
00:48:39,320 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: And it's like you said that, no one else said that.

956
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: You said that, and you said that because of a

957
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: real thirty seconds, Yeah I got reposted, and so just

958
00:48:47,880 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: really being mindful of that. Yeah, So I think that

959
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 1: that is you know, where I would like us to

960
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: kind of wrap up is if you could both offer

961
00:48:56,160 --> 00:49:01,319
Speaker 1: some suggestions or advice around like how people can be

962
00:49:01,360 --> 00:49:04,640
Speaker 1: mindful around the information that they find on one like

963
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: what kinds of things should they be paying attention to

964
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: on how do they make use of it carefully? I

965
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:11,359
Speaker 1: love for Dr A said when you said you are

966
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,479
Speaker 1: the expert on you, and I think that we start there.

967
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,360
Speaker 1: I think that you know, your experience is your experience

968
00:49:17,400 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: and is a valid experience. And so if there's something

969
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: that we're seeing online it's like wow, that feels very

970
00:49:22,800 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 1: familiar to me, or I think that offers some insight

971
00:49:25,040 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 1: into how I've been feeling, it is okay if that

972
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:30,319
Speaker 1: basically resonates with you, But knowing that these are not

973
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 1: credible spaces necessarily, and knowing where am I getting my

974
00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 1: information from? All of our experiences are different. So just

975
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: because you experience it too, you are now not the

976
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 1: expert or this person is not the expert on that

977
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: particular thing because they had the experience, and so I'm okay,

978
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,680
Speaker 1: whatever comes up for you or whatever resonates with you.

979
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,279
Speaker 1: But being saying, okay, where can I go to meet

980
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:54,400
Speaker 1: with a licensed provider, someone who's trained at hey, and

981
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: you can take your experience into the room. This is

982
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,280
Speaker 1: what I experienced, And I actually saw something on social

983
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,360
Speaker 1: media that talked about this, and this is what I

984
00:50:03,440 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 1: experienced that was similar in that particular post and being

985
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 1: able to work through that because you really do want

986
00:50:09,160 --> 00:50:11,479
Speaker 1: to have understanding, you really do want to get better,

987
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: You really do want to target whatever it is that's

988
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: perhaps causing you discomfort or the struggles that you're having

989
00:50:16,760 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: when it comes to the experience of life. So I

990
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: think being mindful of the source where we're getting the

991
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 1: information from, and then being mindful of where we go

992
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,560
Speaker 1: to for help and we go to for treatment, So

993
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: the experience is valid, your feelings are valid. But then

994
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:33,040
Speaker 1: what do we do now as a result of all

995
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:35,440
Speaker 1: of that? Yeah? Absolutely, The main thing I was going

996
00:50:35,480 --> 00:50:38,440
Speaker 1: to say was around the the source right, thinking about it,

997
00:50:38,480 --> 00:50:42,360
Speaker 1: recognizing who you are sourcing information about yourself from. I

998
00:50:42,360 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 1: think I would add to that, you don't have to

999
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,400
Speaker 1: be this constant self improvement project. You don't always have

1000
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: to be working on yourself, and you don't always have

1001
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:52,880
Speaker 1: to be getting better. And I see things that I

1002
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 1: understand what the tent is like, you know, one percent

1003
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 1: better every day. It's just like some can I just

1004
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 1: be where I am today or for a week or two,

1005
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:02,239
Speaker 1: like in the distress tolerance piece, right, But I think

1006
00:51:02,760 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: we are like walking self help sections of Barnes and Nobles,

1007
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: where it's like everything I should be doing to get better,

1008
00:51:08,560 --> 00:51:11,359
Speaker 1: I need more money, I need more clarity, I need

1009
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: better friends, I need higher following on social media. It's

1010
00:51:14,760 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: and I get wrapped up in it. Two So I

1011
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: understand it right from my own experience, But that can

1012
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,560
Speaker 1: be really exhausting. You will more than likely find yourself

1013
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 1: reactively searching for all the things to get better, so

1014
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:28,959
Speaker 1: looking online, buying courses, buying programs, getting coaches, like doing

1015
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,239
Speaker 1: all this stuff that really can take away from you.

1016
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,239
Speaker 1: Actually just feeling connected with who you are and kind

1017
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:35,880
Speaker 1: of where you are now. I'm allowing that to be

1018
00:51:35,920 --> 00:51:41,320
Speaker 1: good enough. So just being mindful of how much time, energy, effort,

1019
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: money you spend on wanting to be different than who

1020
00:51:44,640 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 1: and how you are. So just being mindful of how

1021
00:51:47,480 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 1: much time, energy, effort, money, and I think that can

1022
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,160
Speaker 1: that can be a helpful kind of mindfulness exercise, and yeah,

1023
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:56,719
Speaker 1: being being mindful of of who you are following and

1024
00:51:56,760 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: how the information leaves you feeling. I want to say,

1025
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: last year, or maybe the year before, I unfollowed, probably

1026
00:52:02,239 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: unfollowed therapists. I couldn't do it anymore. It was too much.

1027
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: I'm following, are you following me? Hold on it now,

1028
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:13,799
Speaker 1: because I don't be. I'm not on there like that.

1029
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,879
Speaker 1: Let me go, okay, let me listen. Has been done.

1030
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: I still following to you, but I had to. I

1031
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 1: had to stop following therapists. It was too much for me,

1032
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:27,800
Speaker 1: and I was trying. I was initially doing it to

1033
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: kind of support, but then I found myself doing it

1034
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:31,839
Speaker 1: to kind of get ideas for social media that they're

1035
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,040
Speaker 1: posting about this, so I should post about this, and

1036
00:52:34,080 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, they're talking about this. I never I

1037
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: never learned about it that way. Maybe I should. I

1038
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:40,959
Speaker 1: had to stop. It was too much, It was too

1039
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: too much for me. So also recognizing and and and

1040
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 1: leaning into write your own awareness of what gets activated

1041
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: for you when you see this kind of content. But

1042
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: if it's taking you further and further away from yourself,

1043
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 1: you can change up your theme. I love therapists, but

1044
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,759
Speaker 1: I was doing way too much, doing way too much,

1045
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 1: so I need to follow, you know, puppy pages, not

1046
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: the good old met pages. Yeah. I love It's like

1047
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 1: that we get to like it's okay for us just

1048
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: to be and that we will constantly be in a

1049
00:53:18,120 --> 00:53:20,680
Speaker 1: state of becoming and that is okay. You know, we

1050
00:53:20,719 --> 00:53:23,399
Speaker 1: don't have to always you know, be you know, yeah, yeah,

1051
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:27,319
Speaker 1: just be just me and that's okay. Yes, yes, Well,

1052
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:31,400
Speaker 1: thank you again both for such beautiful, beautiful thoughts. Remind

1053
00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:33,840
Speaker 1: us where we can find you all on social media

1054
00:53:33,960 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 1: as well as your websites, on our on not so

1055
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,279
Speaker 1: much on social media. Don't don't be trying to come

1056
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 1: for me. Dr Joy because I'm not on there like that.

1057
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: It's awesome you hearn lowlow listen, this is a a group

1058
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 1: watch out. I am asked Dr Joy A s K

1059
00:53:53,040 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: d R j O y on Instagram. So that's where

1060
00:53:56,040 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: I am not daily, not awesome but yeah, and where

1061
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: I am daily and probably too often for my own benefit.

1062
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 1: I am on Instagram at dr underscore Ayanna underscore A.

1063
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:12,520
Speaker 1: So let's at d R underscore A y A n

1064
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 1: n A underscore A perfect And we will include all

1065
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:21,520
Speaker 1: of that in the show notes. Thank you both. I'm

1066
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 1: so glad Dr Abrams and Dr beckw With were able

1067
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,320
Speaker 1: to join me again this week to learn more about

1068
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Speaker 1: them in their work and to check out the other

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00:54:28,480 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 1: conversations we've had here on the podcast. Visit the show

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Speaker 1: notes at Therapy for Black Girls dot com slash session

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Speaker 1: to see and make sure to text two of your

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Speaker 1: girls right now and tell them to check out the episode.

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Speaker 1: If you're looking for a therapist in your area, check

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Speaker 1: out our therapist directory at Therapy for Black Girls dot

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Speaker 1: com slash directory. And if you want to continue digging

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Speaker 1: into this topic or just be a community with other sisters,

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Speaker 1: come on over and join us in the Sister Circle.

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00:54:56,320 --> 00:54:58,759
Speaker 1: It's our cozy corner of the Internet designed just for

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Speaker 1: black women. You can join us at Community dot Therapy

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Speaker 1: for black girls dot com. This episode was produced by

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Speaker 1: Freda Lucas and Alice Ellis and editing was done by

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Speaker 1: Dennis and Bradford. Thank you all so much for joining

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Speaker 1: me again this week. I look forward to continue in

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Speaker 1: this conversation with you all real soon. Take it here