WEBVTT - Empowering Diversity and Inclusion in Business 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:05.680 This is Bloomberg Business Wait inside from the reporters and 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:09.440 editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus 0:00:09.520 --> 0:00:13.680 global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:19.000 Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:20.440 --> 0:00:23.560 Now in our weekend broadcast that will air this Saturday, 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:26.880 Matt and I talked with Marcus Shaw, presidency at ALLT Finance, 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:30.440 on increasing the presence of HBCU students working in the 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:34.160 ALLT Finance world. We talk a lot about diversity, Matt, 0:00:34.200 --> 0:00:36.279 in all walks of finance and business and more. 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:37.560 And so do you executives. 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.480 I feel like, certainly coming off the pandemics, certainly coming 0:00:40.479 --> 0:00:43.920 off of George Floyd, diversity, inclusion, belonging has been top 0:00:43.920 --> 0:00:44.320 of mind. 0:00:45.040 --> 0:00:50.240 Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And as it is Asian, American and 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:53.239 Pacific Islanders a month, we're focused in on that aspect 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:57.200 of it. But of course we're always watching and doing 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:02.080 our best to promote gender equit and racial equity as well. 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.240 All Right, We've got a great guest on that. LENEA. 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.600 Irvin is CEO of Cokequill, a global nonprofit think tank 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:11.680 advisory group founded back in four really to address bias 0:01:11.720 --> 0:01:16.120 and uncover barriers to advancement for underrepresented populations in the workplace, 0:01:16.840 --> 0:01:18.679 and we talk about it a lot. We still have 0:01:18.680 --> 0:01:21.440 a lot of progress to make. Lenaia, thank you so 0:01:21.520 --> 0:01:23.600 much for being with us. Tell us attle bit more 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.640 about your organization specifically. You know, I got that from 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.640 your website. I'm not gonna lie full transparency, but a 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.080 lot of people and organizations are working on diversity. There's 0:01:32.120 --> 0:01:35.120 a lot of conversations and yet we're making progress, but 0:01:35.160 --> 0:01:37.400 it's pretty slow. So tell us a little bit about 0:01:37.480 --> 0:01:39.399 what you do on a daily basis. 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:41.600 Yeah, I know, a coke cool. So we're a global 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:46.200 think tank and we've been around nearly twenty years and 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:48.480 we'll be do as conduct research. So we have a 0:01:48.520 --> 0:01:52.360 great team of PhDs and quants and you know, storytellers. 0:01:52.640 --> 0:01:54.960 We use data to tell stories of bias and barriers 0:01:54.960 --> 0:01:57.240 that talent face in the workplace. How are the stories 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:01.280 you know, some of them are. You know, they're challenging, 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.080 but they present opportunity. We have a task force of 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.600 over one hundred of the world's largest companies, large multinationals, 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.560 and we advise them on you know, diversity, equity, inclusion, 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.360 best practices. We spend time with their leadership teams as 0:02:14.400 --> 0:02:17.480 they think about cultural transformation and how they can actually 0:02:17.840 --> 0:02:19.520 create the conditions for talent to thrive. 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.040 Right, Yeah, I want to go back. How are the stories? 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:24.680 You guys are doing the data and you're checking it 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:27.040 and then you're obviously presenting it to these big companies 0:02:27.080 --> 0:02:29.000 that you're working with. Just set the stage for us 0:02:29.000 --> 0:02:32.120 because I think it's a good reality check in terms. 0:02:32.000 --> 0:02:35.040 Of where we are right So, you know, we're here 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:40.160 obviously we're focused on Asian, Asian, American and Pacific islanders 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:43.800 this month, and you know, the stories that we hear 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:47.080 when we look across talent, across lines of difference. You know, 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:52.800 there's there's just this persistent set of barriers that often 0:02:52.800 --> 0:02:56.320 go unseen by leaders in the work environment, often go 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:59.960 unseen by you know, colleagues for example. So we just 0:03:00.200 --> 0:03:04.120 launched to study strangers at home, and you know, the 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.600 study really does fill a gap in existing research, at 0:03:07.680 --> 0:03:10.079 least we believe as it relates to Asian, Asian, American 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.679 and Pacific islanders, and we give a little bit of 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:17.280 horror historical context, but then we bring visibility into the 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:22.280 ways anti Asian violence has impacted this talent in the workplace. 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:23.480 Outside of the workplace, we. 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.760 Have colleagues here that's certainly coming off a. 0:03:26.600 --> 0:03:29.880 Worse over the past few years, Asian American violence against 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:30.680 Asian Americans. 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.720 I think we've all witnessed a pronounced increase. And what 0:03:33.800 --> 0:03:36.000 we find in the data is because. 0:03:35.760 --> 0:03:38.280 The pandemic specifically right and then it was coming from Asia. 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:41.440 We have colleagues here that they had their spouse is 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:44.360 picking them up because they didn't want them on public transportation. 0:03:44.560 --> 0:03:48.360 Absolutely, sixty two percent of our respondents said that the 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:54.960 increase in violence, you know, COVID nineteen has cautioned them 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:58.800 and they're commute to work right, you know, nearly two thirds, 0:03:58.880 --> 0:04:02.760 nearly two thirds of Asian professionals say that this ongoing 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:06.800 violence has impacted their their mental health. More than half 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.800 say that it actually impacts their their ability to be 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:15.040 productive at work, their ability to focus at work, their 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.880 their relationships with their managers and colleagues, who you know, 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.359 they're bringing this trauma in and they're surrounded by colleagues 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.640 and perhaps leaders that don't really know how to support them. 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:25.279 And so just imagine you know, the the near term 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.359 and longer term career impacts that could have. 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.080 Right, So what's the answer in terms of I guess 0:04:30.200 --> 0:04:33.479 education and policy. What should we do specifically? 0:04:33.560 --> 0:04:35.400 I'm most sure, like curious about what moves the needle 0:04:35.440 --> 0:04:37.839 because we have so many conversations we all do, like 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:42.160 you know, planning or are we do you know, certain 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:44.240 training sessions and stuff to make it all better? 0:04:44.320 --> 0:04:45.839 But what really moves the needle? 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:48.719 Yeah, you know, it's a it's a combination of things. 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.719 We often put forth a framework. It's simple audit awaken act. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:55.400 So we encourage companies and leaders to really kind of 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.200 audit the current state of talent within their their ecosystem, 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.760 within their work environment, and then awakened to some of 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:05.120 the barriers you know, talent are facing. When we embarked 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:07.760 on this study around Asian Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:12.520 you know, the experiences of microaggressions that are unique to 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:15.080 Asian talent really surfaced, and I think it's important for 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:17.839 you know, everyone to kind of understand. So there's this 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:22.159 experience in two sets. You know, there's this experience of 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:27.120 being made to feel the perpetual foreigner, right, so you know, 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:29.640 having colleagues assume that you're not born in the US, 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:31.520 or when you say I'm born in the US, they 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:33.599 don't know where are you really from, right, Or they're 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.279 telling you that your English is good, right, the assumption 0:05:36.360 --> 0:05:39.080 is that English is not your first language. So they 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:43.279 have this constant othering. And then on the flip side, right, 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.440 a counter to that, which it's kind of derived from 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.360 the model minority myth our research kind of frames as 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:53.320 over validation, right. And again it's it's in the way 0:05:53.360 --> 0:05:56.120 that shows up is the assumption that, Okay, their colleagues 0:05:56.240 --> 0:06:00.520 think Asian Asian Americans are they work harder, right from 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:03.679 a stereotype, they're naturally smarter because of their race, they're 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.440 perhaps only good at math or science, and so they 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:11.320 feel pigeonholed. A lot of Asian professionals, you know this, Look, 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:14.320 we can be considered subject matter experts, but they're not 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.279 considering us for leadership, right, So they're kind of dealing 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:19.039 with and you initially people like, oh, that might be 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:21.320 a tail when they think you're smarter, but the harm 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:24.839 comes in limiting your ability and can I. 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:25.360 Ask you something? 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:25.800 Is it? 0:06:26.000 --> 0:06:27.920 You know in terms of as we all try to 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:30.760 get smarter on all of this and be more inclusive 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:34.480 and make more people feel belong like they belong in environments. 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:36.080 Is it different in. 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:40.680 Terms of the exclusion that Asian Americans feel versus Black 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:44.960 Americans versus I don't know, LGBTQ community. I am curious 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:49.760 about in your conversations with big corporations how they do 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:53.960 they put all diversity and inclusion in one bucket Because 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:55.560 I have a hard time too when we have like 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:57.599 different groups for different people. 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.800 Because if we're trying to be inclusive, if we. 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:04.240 Keep branching everything out, that to me is exclusive rather 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:05.960 than inclusive idolic. 0:07:06.040 --> 0:07:07.120 So I can't get my head around it. 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:09.600 Yeah, no, so we do. We do encourage when you 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.640 look at data, for example, within an organization, disaggregating the 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.040 data data does help you to see where there might 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:19.080 be varied experiences for smaller groups right in way of representation, 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.000 you know. But what we encourage, you know, companies to 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:29.400 do is really consider who might not be given the 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:33.400 same opportunities for advancement or development just by virtue of 0:07:33.520 --> 0:07:36.200 perhaps not being seen right. You know, we think about 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.200 whether it's representation of women in the c suite or 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:43.360 representation of LGBTQ talent or black talent, you know, thinking 0:07:43.400 --> 0:07:47.800 about Okay, how can you be not only great allies 0:07:47.840 --> 0:07:50.760 but sponsors to these communities across lines of difference, Because 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.280 I agree, you know there's there are limits to saying, 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.239 well this group, we target this group and only support 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:58.400 this group, we target that group, only support this group. 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:00.520 I think where we win is look at the data, 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:03.400 Look where there are we look where there are barriers, right, 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:07.000 look where there is retention and advancement gaps, and say 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:10.480 how can we better deliver for that particular cohort and 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:12.360 make sure that it's something that's top of mind for 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:13.000 all leaders. 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:16.880 Right, So in terms I mean, you're not just someone 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.400 who runs a think tank. You've also worked in corporate America. 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:24.119 You've been on the street, yes, at Bank America, leading 0:08:24.120 --> 0:08:28.280 a huge organization there. Do you think that we're making 0:08:28.360 --> 0:08:33.320 progress on this on the diversity inclusion issues in general 0:08:33.840 --> 0:08:36.360 as a society, And I wonder what your take is 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.400 in terms of is Wall Street doing any better or 0:08:38.400 --> 0:08:40.280 worse than the rest of the industry. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:44.920 You know what, I will say progress is being made. 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:48.000 I'm sure there are many that would say that it's 0:08:48.040 --> 0:08:50.240 not being made fast enough. I might be in that camp, 0:08:50.559 --> 0:08:54.080 but I know what the desk looked like twenty years ago. 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:56.880 I know what it's like to be the only black woman, 0:08:57.000 --> 0:08:59.120 you know, in that particular business, the only. 0:08:59.040 --> 0:09:01.040 Marcus said the same thing when we had him on 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.480 when he was you know, in his first financial firm. 0:09:03.640 --> 0:09:08.319 Absolutely, and so you know those experiences and you build 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.800 allyship and and you know with with folks there. But 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:14.199 I do, I do believe that Wall Street is unrecognizable 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.680 to what it was a couple decades ago. You know, 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:20.400 there are there are not only c suite but CEOs 0:09:20.440 --> 0:09:24.199 at these firms who truly believe that, you know, the 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:26.120 diversity within their ranks. 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:29.520 Groups, yes, Black Americans, Asian Americans, LGBTK. 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:30.280 It is it is. 0:09:30.520 --> 0:09:32.520 Not only is it important and it is the right 0:09:32.559 --> 0:09:35.320 thing to do and align with values, but it's also 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:39.040 a competitive necessity. We are living in a world of disruption, 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.440 right You've got to be able to activate talent if 0:09:42.480 --> 0:09:45.480 you're going to compete. You know, it's an the exponential age. 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:47.760 We don't know, Marcus said, You've got to let your 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:49.439 greed overcome your bias. 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:53.560 Absolutely. Absolutely, You're a number on the street before you're 0:09:53.840 --> 0:09:55.080 you know, a face or anything else. 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:56.880 Well, great to check in with you and appreciate you 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.880 stopping by. Lenaia Irvin, CEO of Coke Will joining us. 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:00.960 You're in studio. 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:05.160 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:08.520 live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:12.640 Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.400 or watch us live on YouTube. 0:10:16.120 --> 0:10:20.320 So a tense appeals court hearing yesterday over the FDA's 0:10:20.320 --> 0:10:22.400 approval of the abortion pill force the agency and the 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:25.840 myth of pro stones forgive me brand new manufacturer to 0:10:25.880 --> 0:10:28.400 clarify confusion over the agency's authority. 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:29.200 And regulatory processes. 0:10:29.240 --> 0:10:31.800 We know that this has been going on meantime. Also 0:10:31.840 --> 0:10:35.160 this week, Matt, we had North Carolina's Republican dominated legislature 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.800 upheld a bill banning the most abortions after twelve weeks. 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:40.640 So there's a lot going on when it comes to 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:42.120 women's reproductive rights. 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:44.480 Yeah, I mean, this is a huge issue and it's 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.559 going to be name done yet it's going to be 0:10:47.600 --> 0:10:50.680 a big issue I think in the upcoming election, and 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:54.720 the kind of thing that I wouldn't normally want to 0:10:54.720 --> 0:10:56.480 touch with a ten foot poll. So it surprises me 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.959 to see Republicans getting so involved. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:01.920 What's been on their platform for a long time, and 0:11:01.960 --> 0:11:02.839 they but. 0:11:02.800 --> 0:11:07.320 They haven't been as as they haven't been as loud 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.400 about it, you know, and I think they run the 0:11:10.559 --> 0:11:13.120 risk of alienating a lot of people and then just 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.360 carrying the thirty percent that they always care no matter what. 0:11:17.440 --> 0:11:18.640 So that's the political side. 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:20.680 So let's actually just get an update a little bit 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:23.120 more with Bloomberg News equality reporter Kelsey Butler. 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:24.400 She's on the phone in New York City. 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.599 So Kelsey, I just gave some of the headlines, but 0:11:26.640 --> 0:11:28.360 gets up to speed and kind of where we are 0:11:28.400 --> 0:11:30.400 in this and kind of the trend that we continue 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:32.960 to see when it comes to women's reproductive rights. 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:38.760 Well, we're definitely seeing a continued erosion of abortion access 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:41.920 across the country. I just had a story out last 0:11:41.960 --> 0:11:44.640 week and since then there have been other restrictions that 0:11:44.720 --> 0:11:48.240 have passed. In North Carolina, there is now a twelve 0:11:48.240 --> 0:11:50.360 week band that will be going into a fact soon. 0:11:51.040 --> 0:11:53.719 So it's things are moving at a breakneck speed and 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:58.080 evolving really day to day. And what we're really seeing 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:03.040 is now really the south of the country, the Midwest. 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:07.880 There are large regions where there's really no abortion access 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:08.480 for patients. 0:12:08.720 --> 0:12:11.160 So, Kelsey, does that go hand in hand with support? 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:14.040 I mean, you know, on the pro life side of things, 0:12:14.800 --> 0:12:17.760 they want women to have these babies, so I'm assuming 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:21.760 they're also providing a lot more support in terms of daycare, 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.120 a lot more support in terms of helping mothers raise 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:27.600 these children. Are we seeing that? 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.640 We're definitely not seeing that. I mean, the US is 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:35.559 far behind when it comes to maternal health, has one 0:12:35.600 --> 0:12:39.800 of the worst maternal mortality rates in the developed world, 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:43.880 and we know that there is a childcare crisis in 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.040 this country as well. These are all things that our 0:12:46.080 --> 0:12:48.680 team writes about a lot, so we're not really seeing 0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:52.079 in a lot of these places. They also rank really 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:57.400 low on things like childcare supports for new moms pregnant 0:12:57.400 --> 0:13:02.880 people as well, So it's just compounded really bad situation. 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:06.560 Hey, Kelsey, last question here, what else is on the 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.040 docket that we need to be kind of keep on 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:08.760 our radar here? 0:13:10.120 --> 0:13:13.800 I think the biggest thing is the current litigation on 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:18.120 the abortion pill is the most common method of ending 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:22.720 pregnancies right now in the US, and any limiting access 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:26.200 to that will certainly have ramifications for patients. Across the country. 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.199 All right, really appreciate the update, because there's been a 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.640 lot going on, certainly on this front. Bloomberg News Equality 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:34.160 reporter Kelsey Butler on the phone in New York City. Well, 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:37.480 the wrangling definitely continuing over women's reproductive rights, so too 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:41.400 often a debate between breastfeeding and baby formula. Our next 0:13:41.400 --> 0:13:43.800 guest has some thoughts on that. Let's get to Cecilia 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.679 to Maury, Associate professor at the Johns Hopkins School of 0:13:46.800 --> 0:13:49.920 Nursing in the Bloomberg School of Public Health, Department of Population, 0:13:50.040 --> 0:13:52.839 Family and Reproductive Health, of course, the Bloomberg School of 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.280 Public Health, supported by Michael our Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg 0:13:55.400 --> 0:14:00.920 LP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. Cecilia joining us on Zoom from Baltimore, Maryland. Cecilia, 0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:03.400 I can't tell you how much we have been talking 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:05.000 about this in the newsroom. 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:08.320 Matt scot a young daughter. I had a daughter, she's 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:08.840 now twenty. 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.160 But you know, the debate between breastfeeding and formula, there's 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:14.480 so much. Tell us kind of what's top of mind 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:14.960 for you here? 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.560 Sure? I mean, I don't you know, I don't think 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:20.240 it needs to be a debate I think that would 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:23.960 be my first point. So, as an expert in the field, 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:25.840 I think what we need to be thinking about is 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.680 how do we enable people to be able to thrive, 0:14:29.920 --> 0:14:33.200 to parent, and to be able to feed their babies responsively, 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:37.080 and to enable people to breastfeed if they desire for 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:38.280 as long as they wish. 0:14:38.680 --> 0:14:42.560 Isn't it advisable? And I know this sort of throws 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.880 me into the debate in a sense, but isn't it 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.320 advisable to breastfeed if you can it? Doesn't it provide 0:14:49.760 --> 0:14:53.200 the child with a massive advantage in terms of health 0:14:53.480 --> 0:14:54.200 and development? 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:55.520 Yes? 0:14:55.600 --> 0:14:57.800 Absolutely. I think that the best way to think about 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:02.400 this is that this is the feeding norm for human beings. 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:05.240 We are part of the group of mammals. This is 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:09.880 a very ancient evolutionary adaptation and so it is set 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:14.360 up to essentially provide a series of protect and protective 0:15:14.360 --> 0:15:19.320 benefits from infectious disease to noncommunicable diseases, and it basically 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:22.720 has implications for the entire life course. What I think 0:15:23.160 --> 0:15:26.760 is lesser known is that there are significant implications for 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:31.360 mothers as well, for ovarian cancer, for breast cancer, as 0:15:31.400 --> 0:15:34.680 well as for metabolic diseases. So it really is a 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:38.760 system with many, many different components and with effects over 0:15:38.800 --> 0:15:40.360 the entire life course socily. 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:42.640 To be fair, Matt and I've been talking also, and 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:48.360 his wife had some difficulties. I had some difficulties early on. 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:50.640 My way, which, by the way, I didn't expect. No 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:53.280 one prepared us for the fact that it's hard, might 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:55.240 be tough for the baby to latch, It could be 0:15:55.400 --> 0:15:58.720 very it could be painful to very painful, and we 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:03.400 could eventually had problems like mastitis. She had fevers of 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:05.560 one hundred and four degrees. We were back in the 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:07.880 hospital two or three times. I had no idea this 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:08.600 was going to happen. 0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.800 And for women and for first time moms, there's enough 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:14.080 going on with your hormones and there's a lot of pressure, 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:16.680 So how do you kind of think about that, because 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:17.560 it can be very. 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:21.400 Absolutely that is actually the point. So the work that 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:24.200 we've been doing on the Lens of Breastfeeding series that 0:16:24.240 --> 0:16:26.680 came out in February and that was launched in April 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:30.200 and the United States is exactly about this. So the 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.560 argument that we're making is that it's not up to 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:38.720 individuals to address systemic failures. It's actually a societal, whole 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:44.440 society of responsibility to enact policies that support people much 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:47.160 much better than these experiences that you have just shared 0:16:47.200 --> 0:16:49.800 with me, which are very common and part of the reasons. 0:16:49.520 --> 0:16:51.480 Why what do the work we do? What do you 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:53.280 mean in terms of policies. 0:16:53.280 --> 0:16:56.080 So a whole series of recommendations that we made, so 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.920 we really are thinking about this as a systems kind 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.440 of approach. So this is multiple systems coming together the 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.199 health system, so implementing a series of steps that we 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:09.719 know work to actually support people within the health system, 0:17:10.080 --> 0:17:14.520 from the Baby Friendly Hospital initiative, to skilled support to communities, 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:19.600 steps that follow people postpartum, to workplace policies, which I 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:22.840 think we need to mention and highlight because as the 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:27.200 previous reporter also mentioned, we are extremely far behind among 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.720 even wealthy countries. We are the only OECD nation that 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:37.159 lacks federal paid leave and has minimal supports for people 0:17:37.280 --> 0:17:40.399 at the workplace when they do return to work. So 0:17:40.440 --> 0:17:42.160 many people are returns. 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.600 So insane considering you have, you know, a large group 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:48.800 of people in this country that are so opposed to 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:52.640 abortion and yet they don't back any kind of support 0:17:52.760 --> 0:17:56.560 for the resultant babies and The other thing that really 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.720 grinds my gears, Cecilia, is that, oh, if a man 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:02.800 and men had these problems like mass titis, which most 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:03.400 men have no. 0:18:03.320 --> 0:18:05.000 Idea about it, that babies, we wouldn't be. 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:09.640 Se and doctors would research and treat the problems better. Right. 0:18:09.760 --> 0:18:12.120 I would look back into the after my wife came 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.040 down with this for the second or third time, I 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.480 looked back into the research and found the only reason 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:19.200 that doctors started looking into it at all was because 0:18:19.320 --> 0:18:23.200 cows weren't producing enough milk. It's truly unbelievable. 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.959 Erry It's an appalling situation, and that's one of the 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:28.920 things that we actually call for is much more attention 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:34.360 for healthcare providers in their training on lactation and interlinked 0:18:34.359 --> 0:18:38.720 to that, also, we call for regulations on the marketing 0:18:39.359 --> 0:18:44.960 from commercial milk formula makers who have been aggressively marketing 0:18:45.000 --> 0:18:49.840 products and undermining breastfeeding using a series of very sophisticated 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.760 and far reaching tactics. So what we're calling for is 0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:58.120 actually a whole societal policy approach that puts together all 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:02.399 these systems, so the houses stem to the workplace, to 0:19:02.840 --> 0:19:07.560 marketing regulations, so all of this together to actually provide 0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.680 the suppurtse to enable people to breastfeed. So that's a 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.160 very different kind of argument than I think the debates 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:18.399 on social media, you know, suggest that is not at 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:20.359 all what we are talking about. We're not talking about 0:19:20.400 --> 0:19:24.640 individuals solving societal problems. We're calling for systemic change. 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:26.560 I got to say here at Bloomberg, they were very 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.320 good and there was a place where you could come 0:19:28.359 --> 0:19:30.600 to work after I came back to work after Aggie 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.280 was born, and you know, you could pump if you 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.080 needed to, and made it possible to kind of continue breastfeeding, 0:19:36.080 --> 0:19:37.879 which was a really plus for me. 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:39.680 Cecilia, thank you so much. 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:41.760 Feel like we don't talk about this enough and feel 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:44.960 like this was just a conversation that needed to be had. 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.359 Cecilia Tomory, Associate Professor the Johns Hopkins School of Nursing 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:50.880 and the Bloomberg School of Public Health, Department of Population, 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:53.480 Family and Reproductive Health. 0:19:53.200 --> 0:19:55.440 On Zoom from Baltimore, Maryland. Any final thoughts there. 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:57.560 I just think it's a good conversation to have, and 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:00.280 we need to keep talking about it until we treat 0:20:00.280 --> 0:20:02.840 it like a real health issue and real support. 0:20:03.600 --> 0:20:07.200 You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:11.240 live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio, 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.720 the Bloomberg Business app, and YouTube. You can also listen 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.920 live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, 0:20:18.359 --> 0:20:21.120 Just Say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven. 0:20:20.840 --> 0:20:25.680 Thirty well as the debt ceiling and budget negotiations continue 0:20:25.720 --> 0:20:27.320 in the US this week. In the new issue of 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.760 Bloomberg Business Week, out on newsstands, online at Bloomberg dot com, 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.880 slash BusinessWeek, and of course, on the Bloomberg Terminal, the 0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:36.960 cover story is this week's remarks. It's about king dollar 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:39.480 and how the crown is slipping on the US green 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.320 back and dollar denominated assets thanks to a few things 0:20:42.359 --> 0:20:45.920 going on, including that debt sealing standoff, regional bank failures, 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:48.120