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Speaker 1: This episode contains graphic descriptions of crime scene details. It

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Speaker 1: also deals with suicide. Listener discretion is advised. If you

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Speaker 1: or someone you know is in emotional distress or having

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Speaker 1: thoughts of suicide, call or text nine to eight eight

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Speaker 1: to reach the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. It's free, confidential,

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Speaker 1: and available twenty four to seven.

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Speaker 2: Encountering the unexpected and inexplicable is one of the reasons

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Speaker 2: we venture into the wild. You never know what's going

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Speaker 2: to happen. On a hunt or a hike. You might

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Speaker 2: see something you've never seen before, or something you can't

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Speaker 2: quite explain. Since Jeff Gebhart was found dead in the

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Speaker 2: woods of northwest Georgia, family, friends, and investigators have been

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Speaker 2: trying to explain exactly what happened to the healthy, thirty

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Speaker 2: five year old hunter. All have failed.

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Speaker 3: Do you have any knowledge of his death or how

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Speaker 3: he died?

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Speaker 4: No, sir, I should know. I can wake you in

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Speaker 4: the eye and tell you. I'm sure don't. I'm telling

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Speaker 4: you everything that I know. Honestly, I know nothing about it.

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Speaker 4: I was just trying to help him, and I believe

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Speaker 4: that I believe that I don't know anybody that would

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Speaker 4: want to heard him.

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Speaker 2: That's Dave Smith. Dave and Jeff had met a couple

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Speaker 2: of years prior, and they'd struck up an instant friendship.

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Speaker 2: Both loved hunting, and in September of twenty twelve, they

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Speaker 2: traveled to the Clarks Hill Wildlife Management Area to participate

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Speaker 2: in a special rifle hunt for deer. Three days in,

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Speaker 2: the trip turned from a hunt to a nightmare.

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Speaker 4: I hear the two warning shots and I'm still blowing

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Speaker 4: the horn, and I told him, I said, well, I

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Speaker 4: want to go get somebody and we'll come and help

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Speaker 4: look for you. And so we come back out here

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Speaker 4: and they think they know about where he's at. So

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Speaker 4: we ride the roads. We ride that two or three times,

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Speaker 4: and we never did see him on the road anywhere.

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Speaker 4: And that's when I called nine to one one.

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Speaker 5: You told me earlier today that he sounded very not scared,

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Speaker 5: but he dressed out and you were hysterical.

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Speaker 2: Jeff had called Dave to tell him he was lost

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Speaker 2: and couldn't find his way back to the road. He

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Speaker 2: fired his rifle to help Dave locate him, and then nothing.

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Speaker 2: Jeff stopped answering his phone, and when game wardens arrived,

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Speaker 2: they didn't let Dave venture into the dark Georgia Pines

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Speaker 2: to look for his friend.

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Speaker 6: The helicopter in about twenty minutes will be in there.

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Speaker 6: They spotted a flashlight on the shore on the lake

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Speaker 6: shore in some grass. Quickly thereafter they located the body.

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Speaker 6: They tried to hover the area. They could hover down

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Speaker 6: pretty close. They tried to hover over him to get

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Speaker 6: her repose, and he was unresponsive.

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Speaker 2: Jeff's body was found lying on his back. His hands

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Speaker 2: had been folded across his chest. His rifle and hunting

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Speaker 2: pack were a short distance away, and a folding pocket

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Speaker 2: knife was found underneath his body. When investigators arrived at

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Speaker 2: the scene and took a closer look, they saw the

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Speaker 2: stab wounds eighteen in total, most entered around Jeff's heart.

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Speaker 7: Let me throw on something to you very quick.

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Speaker 5: Okay, Jeff was murdered. This was no accident, This was

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Speaker 5: no suicide. This man was murdered, no question about it. Okay,

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Speaker 5: no doubt we know. And he was, like I said,

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Speaker 5: this was a murder. This was nothing.

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Speaker 2: Else that certainly seemed to be the case. No one

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Speaker 2: gets accidentally stabbed eighteen times. Whatever happened to the hours

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Speaker 2: between when Jeff hung up and when his body was

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Speaker 2: found was violent and intentional.

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Speaker 3: I mean, Jeff was your friend, right and you know

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Speaker 3: from everything you told me, you guys had a good,

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Speaker 3: strong friendship yesterday. And you know I can tell you're

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Speaker 3: upset over this, right.

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Speaker 4: It really yeah, mardon mean when I knew he was lost,

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Speaker 4: and especially when the day if you got there and

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Speaker 4: he didn't want anybody going in the because I was

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Speaker 4: somebody took. You know, it's really bothered me, especially today

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Speaker 4: more what's if found out.

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Speaker 2: What happened to Jeff on that warm September night is

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Speaker 2: as disturbing and perplexing today as it was during Dave's

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Speaker 2: tearful interview with law enforcement. Maybe Jeff met a stranger

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Speaker 2: who was bent on violence, Maybe he saw something he

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Speaker 2: shouldn't have seen, or an unknown enemy use the isolation

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Speaker 2: of the woods to settle old scores. Or maybe Jeff

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Speaker 2: succumbed to something even darker and more bizarre than the

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Speaker 2: ill will of another human. I'm Jordan Sillers and this

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Speaker 2: is Blood Trails, Lost in the Dark, Part one Nightmare.

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Speaker 2: Dave and Jeff had met about two years prior at

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Speaker 2: Chambers Slaughterhouse, where they both worked in Blairsville, Georgia.

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Speaker 4: We got along day I first made him hay Fame,

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Speaker 4: where I was working at. He was a hunter and

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Speaker 4: I was a hunter, so I mean we hit it

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Speaker 4: off and we started turrey hunting the first year, and

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Speaker 4: then deer season came along. We started deer hunting, and

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Speaker 4: then we had started hunting in this dear season.

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Speaker 2: The recording you'll hear of Dave throughout this episode is

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Speaker 2: from two interviews he gave to agents with the Georgia

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Speaker 2: Bureau of Investigation or GBI. Dave initially agreed to be

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Speaker 2: interviewed for this podcast, but he backed out, telling me

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Speaker 2: it would be too difficult to rehash what happened. Fortunately,

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Speaker 2: I was able to obtain the case file from the GBI,

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Speaker 2: along with Dave's interviews with law enforcement. In the fall

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Speaker 2: of twenty twelve, Jeff and Dave had made plans to

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Speaker 2: hunt whitetail in the Clarks Hill, WMA, which is about

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Speaker 2: thirty miles northwest of Augusta. It was a three hour

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Speaker 2: drive from where the pair worked in Blairsville, but they

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Speaker 2: were able to get tags for a special rifle hunt.

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Speaker 2: The general rifle season wouldn't begin until October twentieth, but

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Speaker 2: the Clarks Hill WMA offered a rifle season in September

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Speaker 2: to help manage the white tail population. According to game

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Speaker 2: Warden Matt Garthwright, it was packed.

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Speaker 6: It's visited quite a good bit. That particular weekend they

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Speaker 6: have an early rifle hunt, which Gio's hunters come in

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Speaker 6: there with a rifle and hunt early before the actual

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Speaker 6: rifle season comes in, so a lot of people take

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Speaker 6: advantage of that hunt.

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Speaker 2: The pair arrived on Thursday, September twentieth, the day before

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Speaker 2: the hunt opened. They planned to hunt out of portable

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Speaker 2: tree stands they'd brought with them. Jeff carried a Remington

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Speaker 2: Model seven to ten bolt action rifle chambered in thirty

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Speaker 2: odd sixth Springfield, while Dave used a bolt action rifle

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Speaker 2: chambered in two seventy Winchester. They didn't shoot anything the

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Speaker 2: next morning, so they returned to the woods Friday evening.

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Speaker 2: They'd set up their stands in separate areas, but apparently

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Speaker 2: not the right ones. They didn't see anything, or at

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Speaker 2: least didn't shoot anything, and Dave sent Jeff text at

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Speaker 2: seven thirty nine pm that said walking back. But when

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Speaker 2: Dave got back to the truck. Jeff wasn't there.

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Speaker 4: Friday, not when he got thrown around he shot.

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Speaker 2: One time, Jeff had gotten lost trying to get out

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Speaker 2: of the woods. He called Dave for help getting back

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Speaker 2: to the road where they were supposed to meet at

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Speaker 2: the truck and drive back to camp. He tried firing

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Speaker 2: his rifle so Dave could locate his position and guide

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Speaker 2: him out, but for reasons that remain unclear, he still

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Speaker 2: wasn't able to find the road. As he trudged through

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Speaker 2: the woods, he ran into another hunter named Romey Taylor.

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Speaker 2: The reports indicate that Taylor had shot a hog and

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Speaker 2: Jeff offered to help him butcher it. Taylor told investigators

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Speaker 2: that Jeff was sweating, which wouldn't have been unusual given

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Speaker 2: tempts in the mid seventies. Taylor pointed him in the

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Speaker 2: right direction and he eventually found the road, and.

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Speaker 4: That's when somebody coming down the road found him and

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Speaker 4: picking him up and brought him down to the bathouse,

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Speaker 4: and he walked on in. I'm pretty sure you said

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Speaker 4: it was a guy on his want and they were

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Speaker 4: going down to use a shower, and they gave him

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Speaker 4: around them later and he walked to the camper from

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Speaker 4: the shower house.

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Speaker 2: If it sounds a little unusual that a thirty five

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Speaker 2: year old man could get so turned around trying to

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Speaker 2: get out of an area he just walked into a

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Speaker 2: few hours before, well it is. But it's also worth

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Speaker 2: pointing out that the Clarks Hill WMA is a dense

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Speaker 2: mix of hardwood and pine shot through with the westernmost

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Speaker 2: fingers of Clark's Hill. Lake roads weave their way through

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Speaker 2: the forest, but you might not know you were near

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Speaker 2: a road, even within fifty yards of it. These were

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Speaker 2: also the days before on X, and the case file

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Speaker 2: indicates Jeff was carrying a Verizon Pantex cell phone, one

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Speaker 2: of those devices with a sliding screen that reveals a keyboard,

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Speaker 2: so even if he had service, that phone wouldn't have

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Speaker 2: been much help getting out of the woods. Whatever the

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Speaker 2: reason Jeff got turned aroun he eventually made his way

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Speaker 2: back to camp. The pair had driven together in Dave's

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Speaker 2: gold colored two thousand and four Dodge Ram, and they

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Speaker 2: towed a Jacob pop up camper for sleeping. They woke

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Speaker 2: up the next morning, but instead of going hunting, they

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Speaker 2: drove into the nearby town of Thompson. They stopped at

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Speaker 2: a gas station to fill up the truck, and then

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Speaker 2: picked up a few essentials for hunting in the Georgia

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Speaker 2: back country.

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Speaker 8: Do you buy anything?

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Speaker 4: Uh? We bought some thermoussail refills, and we went across

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Speaker 4: the road to the sausage place and bought some sausage.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: It's unclear why the pair decided to skip one of

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Speaker 2: only three morning hunts they'd have on this trip. Maybe

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Speaker 2: they hadn't slept well the night before, maybe they were

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Speaker 2: getting eaten by mosquitos, or just didn't want to fight

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Speaker 2: the Orange Army on what would probably be the busiest morning.

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Speaker 2: It might not be important, but it struck me as

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Speaker 2: strange that they skipped the morning hunt rather than run

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Speaker 2: their errands around lunchtime. Whatever the reason, they returned to

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Speaker 2: their campsite and went back out at four on Saturday,

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Speaker 2: September twenty second.

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Speaker 4: I dropped him off where he goes into his stand,

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Speaker 4: and I went like, I don't know, it's maybe a

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Speaker 4: half a mile on the past where I parked and

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Speaker 4: go on the other side of the road.

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Speaker 2: Dave sat in his stand until it got dark, but

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Speaker 2: once again didn't shoot any deer. He got down, walked

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Speaker 2: back out to his truck and drove to where he

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Speaker 2: was supposed to meet Jeff along the road.

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Speaker 4: Well, I see a flashlight coming up the road, so

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Speaker 4: I think it's him, so I drove to it. Well

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Speaker 4: it's another guy. And he said he heard somebody holler,

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Speaker 4: and I said, well, I haven't heard anybody. He said, well,

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Speaker 4: they were just righting down there.

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Speaker 2: Did gave the hunter a ride back to his truck,

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Speaker 2: which is when he ran into two more hunters who

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Speaker 2: said they'd seen Jeff in the woods, and the other.

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Speaker 4: Two guys that were there said that they had walked

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Speaker 4: in on him. They saw him sitting in his tree stand.

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Speaker 4: And then I went back there and I see it

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Speaker 4: and he called me, and I had no phone service,

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Speaker 4: but when I got phone service, it said I had

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Speaker 4: a voicemail.

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Speaker 2: Jeff had gotten lost again trying to find the road,

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Speaker 2: so he asked Dave to sound the truck horn to

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Speaker 2: try to help him determine the right direction in the dark.

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Speaker 2: Dave says this would have been about eight point fifteen

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Speaker 2: in the evening, and I blowed the horn.

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Speaker 4: And he couldn't. I don't reckon he could hear it.

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Speaker 4: So he called back and said he was going to shoot,

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Speaker 4: so he shot twice. Did you hear those shots? I

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Speaker 4: heard the shots. This sound like there were four or

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Speaker 4: five hundred yards in front of the truck.

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Speaker 2: Dave had cell phone service by this point, so he

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Speaker 2: was finally able to get Jeff on the phone, as

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Speaker 2: you already heard. He later told investigators that his friend

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Speaker 2: sounded stressed out, almost hysterical as he tried to describe

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Speaker 2: where he was.

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Speaker 4: He said, he was in tall grass, and I thought

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Speaker 4: he was saying something about a fence, and then he

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Speaker 4: said something about mud.

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Speaker 2: Rather than wander through the woods in the dark hoping

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Speaker 2: to find Jeff, Dave and a few fellow hunters decided

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Speaker 2: the best strategy would be to drive the roads and

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Speaker 2: honk their horns. If you look at this WMA on

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Speaker 2: on X, you'll see a network of dirt roads that

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Speaker 2: extend through the woods like a web. Since they knew

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Speaker 2: the approximate area Jeff had been hunting, they figured it

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Speaker 2: wouldn't take him long to pop out on one of

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Speaker 2: those roads. But Dave said they made two or three

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Speaker 2: passes up and down the road and Jeff still hadn't appeared.

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Speaker 2: He'd also stopped answering his phone and Dave was worried

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Speaker 2: his friend might be in more serious trouble, so he

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Speaker 2: called nine to one one. The first officer to arrive

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Speaker 2: on the scene was Corporal Mark Patterson with the Georgia

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Speaker 2: Department of Natural Resources. The second officer was Sergeant Matt Garthwright.

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Speaker 6: They had done an initial search of the area on

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Speaker 6: This area was bordered by roads and the lake, so

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Speaker 6: it was a pretty contained area. Should have been easy

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Speaker 6: to search and locate the hunter. If he was lost

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Speaker 6: and instilled in good shape just walking around, it should

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Speaker 6: have been easy to locate him. So they'd done that initially.

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Speaker 6: Then when that didn't pan out, we started thinking that

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Speaker 6: something's wrong with him, you know, you had a medical issue,

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Speaker 6: or he's had a hunting accident.

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Speaker 2: They requested air support from the Georgia State Patrol, which

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Speaker 2: sent a helicopter to search the area. Within about twenty minutes,

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Speaker 2: they found Jeff.

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Speaker 6: Yes, they radio and told us that they had located him,

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Speaker 6: that he was unresponsive, and they actually directed us into him.

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Speaker 6: So me and Corporal Pytterson and a deputy went to him.

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Speaker 6: And when we got to him, he was laid on

254
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Speaker 6: his back, his legs were straight out and his arms

255
00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,560
Speaker 6: were crossed his chest, and it was apparent that he

256
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Speaker 6: was deceased.

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Speaker 2: Hunting accidents and heart attacks are the first things that

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Speaker 2: come to mind in this situation like this.

259
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Speaker 6: Yeah, that was definitely going through my mind. There was

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Speaker 6: a reported shot heard around dust dark, which would have

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Speaker 6: been a good time for somebody to mistake a hunter

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Speaker 6: for game in that timeframe there, so yeah, that was

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Speaker 6: a possibility.

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Speaker 2: However, it quickly became clear that they were dealing with

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Speaker 2: something far more sinister.

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Speaker 6: There was some blood on his clothing, but nothing that

267
00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:18,920
Speaker 6: looked like a gunshot wound. There was scenarios running through

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Speaker 6: your head and it didn't It wasn't adding up, so

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Speaker 6: we knew something was off. And his gun and some

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Speaker 6: hunting supplies were probably i don't know, fifty yards from

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Speaker 6: him in some tall grass, so he had things wasn't

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00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:36,960
Speaker 6: added up. We knew something was off.

273
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Speaker 2: Sergeant Garthrait called the Georgia Bureau of Investigation to help

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Speaker 2: process the scene, and he stayed with Jeff's body all

275
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Speaker 2: night until the sun came up.

276
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Speaker 6: The next morning, when daylight came, the GBI and our

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Speaker 6: critical reconstruction team came in and we were able to

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00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 6: go exserve the body and get a better understanding of

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Speaker 6: what may have took place. And while looking at the

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Speaker 6: bios said, we noticed blood on his clothing, and when

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Speaker 6: we kind of rolled him up, we found a knife

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Speaker 6: just right up on his right side, and that was

283
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,200
Speaker 6: the wet one that was that was used.

284
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Speaker 2: Jeff's body had been stabbed eighteen times, seventeen in the

285
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Speaker 2: chest and one in the abdomen. Later examination confirmed the

286
00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:27,200
Speaker 2: cause of death to be blood loss from the three

287
00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:31,480
Speaker 2: wounds that had penetrated his heart. Not long after, on

288
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Speaker 2: September twenty fifth, Wilkes County Sheriff Mark Moore told the

289
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,360
Speaker 2: Augusta Chronicle that they were investigating Jeff's death as a homicide.

290
00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 2: Here's Special Agent Wendell Goodman with the GBI speaking to

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Speaker 2: Dave the day after Jeff died.

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Speaker 3: The only thing I can tell you, I mean, we've

293
00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:52,440
Speaker 3: seen the body and the way this frown was committed.

294
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Speaker 3: It was not somebody just happened upon him and it

295
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,119
Speaker 3: was quick and over with. I mean, this is somebody

296
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,680
Speaker 3: that was angry, that's money that was upset.

297
00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,160
Speaker 2: Finding that somebody would be the aim of the investigation

298
00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:11,200
Speaker 2: that followed, and it started with Jeff's friend and hunting

299
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:22,840
Speaker 2: partner David Smith. Part two. Dave, the number of stab

300
00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,440
Speaker 2: wounds and Jeff's call for help strongly indicated foul play,

301
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,800
Speaker 2: and Agent Goodman and his colleagues at the GBI submitted

302
00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 2: search warrants based on the probable cause that a murder

303
00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:36,240
Speaker 2: had been committed. One of those search warrants was sent

304
00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,200
Speaker 2: to Verizon Wireless and it asked for the text messages

305
00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,200
Speaker 2: and call logs of Dave Smith. As Jeff's close friend

306
00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,600
Speaker 2: and the only person he knew in the area, Dave

307
00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 2: was the first person investigators looked at as a potential suspect.

308
00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:53,200
Speaker 2: Here's Agent Goodman, who took the lead on the investigation

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00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 2: for the GBI.

310
00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:57,720
Speaker 8: Anytime there is a death, you're looking for people initially

311
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,560
Speaker 8: that are close to that person. They're going to be

312
00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:04,600
Speaker 8: your best source of information. But obviously you would circle

313
00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 8: that person in its potentially being included, just because out

314
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,840
Speaker 8: of everyone that would have been in the area, you know,

315
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,040
Speaker 8: they're the only person that would have had a connection

316
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:13,960
Speaker 8: to the victim.

317
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,199
Speaker 2: Dad was also the only person who knew the approximate

318
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:20,680
Speaker 2: location where Jeff had placed his tree stand, and as

319
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 2: he admitted to investigators, he was a big knife guy.

320
00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:25,600
Speaker 3: Now, I know you told me you had a lot

321
00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,200
Speaker 3: of knives, and there were something that we took home.

322
00:17:28,600 --> 00:17:31,040
Speaker 3: I saw like a leather moon, look like a handsaw,

323
00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:35,480
Speaker 3: a small hand saw, probably used for yeah. And then

324
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,880
Speaker 3: you had a few knives. It looked maybe like you

325
00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:44,040
Speaker 3: used to clean some deers. And then uh, there were

326
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:48,720
Speaker 3: a few fixed handle knives. Yeah, staging at yours. You know,

327
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,200
Speaker 3: a guy gave me that for Christmas. I've just like

328
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,639
Speaker 3: you do, a box of the srunt. And then I

329
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:55,480
Speaker 3: guess there was another button knife.

330
00:17:56,119 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm one of these Abuton knifes, my brand and

331
00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:02,880
Speaker 4: knife the shop or something A lot of that if

332
00:18:02,880 --> 00:18:05,120
Speaker 4: they have one. At a reasonable cross.

333
00:18:04,840 --> 00:18:11,359
Speaker 2: Long, investigators found two browning knives, two unidentified fixed blade knives,

334
00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,920
Speaker 2: and a buck knife in a black sheath in Dave's

335
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,480
Speaker 2: pack truck and camper. According to the case file, all

336
00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:21,840
Speaker 2: of these knives were collected as evidence. Investigators believed that

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00:18:21,960 --> 00:18:25,440
Speaker 2: Jeff had been killed by the bloody kershaw folding knife

338
00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,600
Speaker 2: found under his body, and they were keen to find

339
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:30,399
Speaker 2: out who that knife belonged to.

340
00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 7: Does that look for me?

341
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:34,800
Speaker 4: I really couldn't say.

342
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:36,600
Speaker 7: Have you ever seen this though?

343
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,920
Speaker 4: No, I've never saw that novel, because I do remember

344
00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:43,240
Speaker 4: the one he had last year. I as surrated blade

345
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 4: on the.

346
00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,879
Speaker 7: Okay, this looks like a straight edge. Do you have

347
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:47,879
Speaker 7: any folding knives?

348
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,119
Speaker 4: To folding knife everything I have or fixed flame?

349
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Speaker 2: Of course, it's a little hard to believe that someone

350
00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:59,199
Speaker 2: with a penchant for knives wouldn't own any folders. Dave's

351
00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,119
Speaker 2: adamant denial here is also a little suspicious in and

352
00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,879
Speaker 2: of itself. Investigators hadn't told him how Jeff died, or

353
00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,439
Speaker 2: that a bloody folding knife was found at the scene.

354
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,920
Speaker 2: How did Dave know to make exactly the right denial

355
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:17,119
Speaker 2: in this situation. Either it's an innocent coincidence and he

356
00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:21,360
Speaker 2: really had strong opinions about folding knives, or he knew

357
00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:25,880
Speaker 2: how Jeff died because he was there. GBI agents were

358
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,440
Speaker 2: apparently thinking the same thing. Here's agent Tony Williamson.

359
00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,080
Speaker 7: This wasn't a random killing.

360
00:19:33,359 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 5: This wasn't somebody that happened to be down there at

361
00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 5: dark after dark and killed me. That that ain't happen.

362
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 5: That ain't happened. And I'm will be straight up, william

363
00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,720
Speaker 5: and I want you to I want you to be

364
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:58,040
Speaker 5: straight up with me. Something happened. Something happened in those woods,

365
00:19:58,480 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 5: and I think you know what happened.

366
00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:02,320
Speaker 4: No, sir, I sure do not know what happened.

367
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,800
Speaker 2: Dave had the opportunity to kill Jeff alone, with him

368
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 2: in the woods, with access to so many knives. He

369
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 2: also had the means. What agents Goodman and Williamson were

370
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 2: trying to determine was whether he had a motive.

371
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,560
Speaker 3: You guys haven't had any type of disagreements.

372
00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,960
Speaker 4: We can go along good from me. Ever since we

373
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:25,479
Speaker 4: met each other, you know something where you just click live,

374
00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,439
Speaker 4: you made friends, and he was he was one of

375
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:30,160
Speaker 4: those tops.

376
00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 7: People see, the kind of guy to pick a fight

377
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:33,919
Speaker 7: if you made him.

378
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:34,200
Speaker 5: Man.

379
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 4: Yes, well let you guys, ever getting like we never got.

380
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 7: You know, you could have y'all could have.

381
00:20:39,960 --> 00:20:43,440
Speaker 5: Come upon each other down in the woods, okay, and

382
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,120
Speaker 5: then he he could have been pissed at you, because

383
00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,439
Speaker 5: you know, he got lost and he was mad and

384
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:49,959
Speaker 5: you had to defenish that. I don't know.

385
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:51,920
Speaker 7: I never saw him.

386
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 4: All I did was talked to him on the phone.

387
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:03,560
Speaker 2: Dave denied killing Jeff in anger or self defense, but

388
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,199
Speaker 2: there are many reasons for murder sex. For example, have

389
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 2: you ever known.

390
00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:10,440
Speaker 7: Any women that he dated, who knows.

391
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,679
Speaker 4: I've never known him dating a Roman there where we

392
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 4: live at They've always been in Florida, where he used

393
00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:24,240
Speaker 4: to live, or I heard him mention one last summer

394
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:25,240
Speaker 4: in Atlala.

395
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:29,520
Speaker 2: Investigators wondered whether Dave and Jeff had fought over a woman,

396
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 2: but Dave denied having a steady girlfriend. There were texts

397
00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 2: on Dave's phone between him and a woman named Tracy,

398
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,520
Speaker 2: but Dave said they'd been set up by someone else

399
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 2: and had never actually met. But when Dave mentioned that

400
00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 2: Jeff had been given a ride to the camp bathhouse

401
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 2: by another hunter, it sent investigators down another line of

402
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,200
Speaker 2: inquiry related to matters of the heart.

403
00:21:51,760 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 3: Now, I know you said earlier that a guy had

404
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,280
Speaker 3: picked up Jeff and they went to the showers, and

405
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 3: as Jeff involved.

406
00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,880
Speaker 4: In all of that guy, not that I don't worry

407
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 4: he was.

408
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 7: See where I'm going, Yeah, it was.

409
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:10,040
Speaker 3: You haven't had any type of relationship type of moments

410
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,400
Speaker 3: which have agents.

411
00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 2: Goodman and Williamson returned to this line of questioning several

412
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 2: times throughout the interview. It might seem awkward or insensitive,

413
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 2: but it wasn't outside the realm of possibility. Neither thirty

414
00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 2: something man seemed to have a steady girlfriend, and a

415
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 2: secret homosexual relationship would be exactly the kind of fraud

416
00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 2: potentially explosive situation that could lead to a violent disagreement.

417
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,680
Speaker 7: So I don't keep me straight up with it. He's gay.

418
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 4: I have no idea. You say a homosexual, I have

419
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:42,639
Speaker 4: no idea. I mean, I don't want to hold that

420
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,679
Speaker 4: against anybody, even moves against me.

421
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 7: So I don't know.

422
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,920
Speaker 4: He's never talked about being another another guy.

423
00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,399
Speaker 7: Let me ask you this, and it's just, you know,

424
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:57,119
Speaker 7: we got to ask all kinds of questions, but you know,

425
00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 7: are you a homosexual?

426
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,040
Speaker 4: No, sir, I'm no. I'm not gonna judge somebody for

427
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:03,399
Speaker 4: doing it.

428
00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 3: And have you ever been physically involved with Jeff?

429
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 4: No? I have never been physically involved with the guy.

430
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: Dave sticks to his guns as the interview progresses, but

431
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:18,240
Speaker 2: it's clearly agents are baffled. It's hard to imagine a

432
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 2: stranger finding Jeff in the woods and stabbing him to death,

433
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:24,120
Speaker 2: but the only person who knew the victim is adamant

434
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 2: that he didn't kill his friend, and he doesn't know

435
00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:26,960
Speaker 2: who did.

436
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 5: Man's lost. Who in the hell would kill him. Think

437
00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 5: about it to put yourself on our shoes. I mean,

438
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 5: we're just trying to find out what happened. I mean

439
00:23:40,720 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 5: last time, I can't. There weren't any while men down there.

440
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,080
Speaker 2: They speculate that maybe someone killed Jeff as part of

441
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 2: a robbery, but none of Jeff's hunting gear appeared to

442
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,120
Speaker 2: have been stolen, including his rifle, and he still had

443
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 2: his wallet in his pocket.

444
00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,640
Speaker 5: Who's gonna hat somebody in the woods, especially downa think shit,

445
00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 5: who's a grown man and he got lost? Who is

446
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:08,640
Speaker 5: gonna be in those woods? Who would be in those

447
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 5: woods that would.

448
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,639
Speaker 4: Do something like that? And see, I have no idea.

449
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 5: I'm the person that killed him, knew him, Isn't that right?

450
00:24:17,040 --> 00:24:18,240
Speaker 7: And that person is you?

451
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 4: No, sir, I didn't like kill him, do not know

452
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:21,840
Speaker 4: anything about it.

453
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,760
Speaker 2: The agents really give Dave the third degree in this interview,

454
00:24:25,920 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 2: and if he's innocent, it's hard not to feel sorry

455
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 2: for the guy. He's just lost his friend. He doesn't

456
00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,560
Speaker 2: have a lawyer in the room, His camper and truck

457
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 2: have been searched, and his property has been seized as

458
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,199
Speaker 2: part of a homicide investigation. But as Agent Goodman told me,

459
00:24:40,440 --> 00:24:43,960
Speaker 2: while Dave didn't do anything that made him look overly suspicious.

460
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 2: They had to take a hard look to make sure

461
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 2: he was telling the truth.

462
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 8: You know, he is the most connected person to mister

463
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,640
Speaker 8: gab Hart. Obviously not immediately aware of what the true

464
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 8: nature of their relationship is. Because neither person was actually

465
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 8: from the area. No one in the area knew them.

466
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 8: They were visiting specifically for this hunt, you know, So

467
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 8: we really didn't have that much to go off aside

468
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 8: from you know, those initial contacts with with mister Smith.

469
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 8: There may be some interviews that we conducted that may

470
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 8: seem a little bit you know, adversarial because we're trying

471
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 8: to get a reaction and trying to get an understanding

472
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 8: of what somebody's stances on a certain topic, or you know,

473
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 8: whether they may or may not have been involved, or

474
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 8: whether you know, there was anything tumultuous that may have

475
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 8: gone on that's you know, under the surface that nobody's

476
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 8: aware of. So, I mean, all of those things may

477
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,920
Speaker 8: have come up here and there, you know, even in

478
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 8: interactions with mister Smith, but it was more so to

479
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 8: try to get to the truth.

480
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 2: The truth in this case turned out to be stranger

481
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 2: than either of the agents anticipated what started as a

482
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: homicide investigation morphed into something more perplexing and difficult to

483
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 2: explain than a lover quarrel or a robbery gone wrong.

484
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 2: As Agent Goodman and others followed the evidence that led

485
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: them to the fringes of psychology, the Roman Catholic Church,

486
00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:14,919
Speaker 2: and what Sergeant Garthright called the death hunt. That's next

487
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:26,440
Speaker 2: on Blood Trails, Part three. The crime scene. With Dave

488
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 2: sticking to his story and no other likely suspects, GBI

489
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 2: investigators turned to the physical evidence they had gathered thus far.

490
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,479
Speaker 2: But if they thought it was hard to explain how

491
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: Jeff met a murderer in the woods, they struggled even

492
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 2: more to account for what they found at the crime scene.

493
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 9: It defied forensic sense.

494
00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: That's Charlotte Perdue, a forensic scientist with Florida State University.

495
00:26:49,840 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: She reviewed Jeff's case for an independent organization that takes

496
00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 2: a second look at cold cases. She told me, it

497
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 2: was easy to see Jeff's trail through the still damp

498
00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: lake bed, but investigators couldn't find signs of anyone other

499
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:04,719
Speaker 2: than Jeff.

500
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 9: There was an area that was all very marshy, and

501
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:09,360
Speaker 9: you could see all of his foot prints, and then

502
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 9: you saw where he like threw down his rifle, he

503
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 9: threw down his flashlight, so he's basically leaving like a

504
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,880
Speaker 9: little mini trail. There was a water bottle, but there

505
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 9: was only his foot print.

506
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 2: Detectives confirmed that the boot prints on the damp ground

507
00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: matched Jeff's, but they didn't find anyone else's. The scene

508
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: also didn't match what you'd expect to see after a

509
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:30,040
Speaker 2: knife fight.

510
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 8: Mister Gabhart himself was a fairly large man. If you

511
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 8: take your average person that's really in a struggle, in

512
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 8: a fight, the scene is gonna look brutal Normally, if

513
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 8: it's gonna be like a sharp force instrument that's being used,

514
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 8: you're gonna have blood kind of I guess, for a

515
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 8: lack of better terms, it's gonna be everywhere, and in

516
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 8: this instance there was not that. Initially, you really couldn't

517
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 8: even tell what had happened until you began to feel

518
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 8: back some of the layers that mister Gabhart was wearing.

519
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 2: The only blood at the crime scene was pooled directly

520
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: under Jeff's torso, but even this gave investigators pause.

521
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 9: All the blood ran backward, so you can tell that

522
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 9: he was laying down at the time, so someone would

523
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,920
Speaker 9: have literally had to be on top of him if

524
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,600
Speaker 9: they did it. He had no drugs or anything in

525
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:21,000
Speaker 9: his system, so he would have been laying completely still

526
00:28:21,440 --> 00:28:24,360
Speaker 9: and not fighting, which would have been very unusual.

527
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 2: This theory that Jeff was lying still as he was

528
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 2: being stabbed was supported by another strange fact. Jeff didn't

529
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 2: appear to have any defensive wounds anywhere on his body.

530
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 8: Well, normally, if there's a physical altercation, you're going to

531
00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 8: have some type of defensive wounds. So if somebody is

532
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,000
Speaker 8: attacking another person with a knife, normally the person being

533
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 8: attacked may put up their forearms or their hands in

534
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 8: front of them to try to block the knife. They

535
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 8: may reach for the knife, and you know, depending on

536
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:57,400
Speaker 8: how they might be reaching or they're stronger, we can

537
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 8: you might find some wounds on the hands, on the forearms.

538
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 8: There were no real defensive wounds that were noted. I

539
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 8: believe there might have been a small cut, like in

540
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 8: the webbing of his hand, but it's not abnormal for

541
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 8: somebody that carries a knife, you know, to have that

542
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,880
Speaker 8: type of cut, and I don't think it was anything

543
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 8: that I would really categorize, especially based on the overall

544
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 8: scene as a defensive wound.

545
00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 2: The wound on his hand also appeared to be older,

546
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: and investigators theorized it was likely sustained during his daily

547
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: tasks at the meat processor. He also had some superficial

548
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 2: abrasions on his neck, but these were light enough that

549
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 2: they could be explained by the rifle sling or the

550
00:29:40,760 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 2: climbing harness he was wearing. Further testing also confirmed the

551
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: investigator's theory about that folding kershaw knife found underneath his body.

552
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,560
Speaker 9: They also did DNA tests on the knife that was

553
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 9: found next to his body, and it was only his DNA.

554
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 9: They also did DNA testing on all the knives that

555
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 9: were found in the camper, and they determined that they

556
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 9: did not have any I guess that were specific to human,

557
00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 9: so the blood type was obviously an animal of some sort.

558
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: Whoever had done this to Jeff had left absolutely no

559
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: trace of their presence. They had murdered the hunter without

560
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: leaving blood on the knife, footprints in the ground, or

561
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 2: belongings in the dirt. It was like one of those

562
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 2: Sherlock Holmes cases where the perpetrator kills someone in a

563
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: locked room without windows, it just didn't make any sense.

564
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:32,640
Speaker 2: Investigators wondered whether he'd been killed somewhere else and then

565
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 2: dragged to the spot where he was found. But as

566
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,160
Speaker 2: any hunter knows who's dragged a dead animal through the woods,

567
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: moving a body would have left impressions in the grass

568
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: and dirt. None of the tall grass around Jeff's body

569
00:30:45,120 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: had been disturbed apart from where he himself had walked in,

570
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 2: and as I just mentioned, there wasn't any blood on

571
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 2: the grass except right underneath Jeff's body. What's more, Jeff

572
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,880
Speaker 2: himself was six foot two, two hundred and thirty nine pounds.

573
00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: They would have taken an incredibly strong person to drag

574
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,880
Speaker 2: Jeff's body any distance at all. And there weren't any

575
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: wheelmarks at the scene either.

576
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 9: And there was no other indication that this grass had

577
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 9: been mushed down anywhere else. Then it was like, well,

578
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 9: maybe it was carried in. Well, that would have been

579
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 9: very difficult because it was more than a half a

580
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 9: mile into the woods, so that would have been a

581
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 9: long way to carry him.

582
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: None of this made any sense, and as you heard

583
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 2: in Dave's interview with the GBI, investigators continue to treat

584
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 2: Jeff's death as a homicide, but that started to change

585
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:35,520
Speaker 2: when the medical examiner sent his official autopsy report.

586
00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 8: I would say that everything that really began to fall

587
00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 8: into place would have been post to autopsy. Initially on

588
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 8: the front end, you look at the number and you know,

589
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 8: they may make you think this person was involved in

590
00:31:50,440 --> 00:31:53,880
Speaker 8: something horrific. Surely there had to be some type of

591
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 8: violent interaction between one person and another. But once a

592
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 8: medical examiner began to examine the wounds, the majority of

593
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 8: them were actually fairly superficial, fairly piercing the upper layers

594
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 8: of skin, and definitely nothing that would be fatal.

595
00:32:14,160 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: Jeff had been stabbed eighteen times, but many of those

596
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 2: wounds hadn't gone much past the skin. This wasn't obvious

597
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 2: to the death investigator on the scene, but the more

598
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,800
Speaker 2: thorough autopsy by the medical examiner in this case, a

599
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,200
Speaker 2: doctor named Daniel Brown, noted that only three of the

600
00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 2: wounds had been deep enough to reach his heart. What's more,

601
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: all were angled left to right. If you're looking at

602
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: his body from the front.

603
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,680
Speaker 9: If someone is stabbing someone, you're going to be thrashing about,

604
00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 9: so your stabs will be all at different angles. His

605
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 9: were all at one particular angle.

606
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,000
Speaker 2: I reviewed some of the crime scene photos with Charla,

607
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: and she pointed out how Jeff's right hand was covered

608
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 2: in blood while his left hand was clean.

609
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,400
Speaker 9: If you see here, this right hand is all bloody,

610
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 9: this one is, and there's even blood like embedded in

611
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 9: the other kindzine photos. They have close up of his

612
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 9: hand and you can see the blood all the way

613
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 9: down under his fingernails. While this hand is clean.

614
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: There is no reason why if Jeff was attacked his

615
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,960
Speaker 2: right hand would be bloody while his left hand wouldn't be.

616
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 2: The wounds themselves were also fairly clean, meaning it appeared

617
00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 2: like the knife slipped in and out without being jostled around.

618
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 2: This would have been extremely unusual if Jeff had been

619
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,479
Speaker 2: stabbed by an assailant. In that case, you can imagine

620
00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: him moving around to try to avoid being stabbed and

621
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: the knife causing wider, more jagged cuts in his body.

622
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 2: But these wounds weren't much wider than that Kershaw knife.

623
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 2: There was one wound in his abdomen, but all the

624
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: other wounds were clustered together on his chest.

625
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 9: They're all in an area that he could reach. They're

626
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 9: all right handed, which Jeff was right handed, which we

627
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 9: confirmed with his brother that he was right handed.

628
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,200
Speaker 2: Taking all this evidence together, the blood on Jeff's hand,

629
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,959
Speaker 2: the location and angle of the stack wounds, and the

630
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 2: absence of another person at the scene, investigators could only

631
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 2: reach one conclusion. Jeff hadn't been murdered. He died by suicide,

632
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: Part four doubts. When the GBI announced their findings, you

633
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: can imagine the reaction from the general public. Not to

634
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 2: mention Jeff's family.

635
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 10: I don't believe it was suicide in any way, shape

636
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 10: or form.

637
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 2: That's Russell Cornell. Russell didn't know Jeff personally, but he

638
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 2: knows Jeff's family, and he's a member of the same

639
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:36,759
Speaker 2: Roman Catholic fraternity Jeff belonged to.

640
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 10: When a guy that has a loaded rifle toted it

641
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 10: through the woods, are you actually gonna pull utch your

642
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 10: knife and kill yourself with a knife. Isn't it easier

643
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 10: just to put a bullet through yourself.

644
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 2: I've heard similar objections from pretty much everyone I've told

645
00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 2: about this case. Most people have been impacted by suicide

646
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 2: in one way or another, but no one has ever

647
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 2: heard of something like this. Why, as Russell asked, would

648
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 2: someone stab themselves eighteen times with a folding knife when

649
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,840
Speaker 2: they were carrying a rifle. It's a gruesome question, but

650
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,480
Speaker 2: it must be asked. Charla has at least the beginnings

651
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:15,920
Speaker 2: of an explanation, and I should point out here that

652
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 2: she was in no way connected to the GBI or

653
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 2: the original investigation. Families of victims ask the organization she

654
00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: works for to review cases if they believe law enforcement

655
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: came to the wrong conclusion. That's what happened in this situation.

656
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: So if anything, Charla would have a bias against what

657
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: the GBI determined, but she largely agrees, and she has

658
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 2: one potential explanation.

659
00:35:40,040 --> 00:35:44,359
Speaker 9: Jeff was pretty religious and from the Catholic faith. He

660
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 9: was very active in his church. He was a member

661
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 9: of the Knights of Columbus, so he was practicing, and

662
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 9: one of the suggestions was that maybe he possibly was

663
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,960
Speaker 9: trying to avoid it looking like a suicide.

664
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: Catholic Church has long taught that suicide is a mortal sin.

665
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 2: There are nuances to this, but I think I'm on

666
00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 2: safe ground when I say that if you're a Catholic

667
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,720
Speaker 2: and you commit suicide, you're in serious danger of going

668
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 2: to Hell. The church has softened the stance in recent decades,

669
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 2: but many still hear stories about the church denying Catholic

670
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 2: burials to those who die by suicide. Russell, who is

671
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 2: also Catholic, confirmed that the entire Gebhart family is devout,

672
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:29,000
Speaker 2: which is one of the reasons he doesn't believe Jeff

673
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:29,800
Speaker 2: killed himself.

674
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 10: I just don't believe a man would go on a

675
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 10: hunting trip the way out there, especially a Catholic man,

676
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 10: because yes, there are some that have committed suicide, but

677
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 10: that's one big thing that is of mortal sin to

678
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 10: the Catholic. So most Catholics won't pick their own life.

679
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 10: I mean, that's my belief and that's my failure. And

680
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 10: if you're close with God, why would you want to

681
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:52,160
Speaker 10: take your own life?

682
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 2: But what if Jeff was mentally distressed and committed to

683
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 2: ending his life. He wouldn't want his parents to be

684
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 2: worried about the eternal state of his soul, and he'd

685
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 2: want them to give him a proper Catholic burial. If

686
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: he killed himself in a way that made it look

687
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 2: like a homicide, he might save his parents that pain

688
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,480
Speaker 2: and give them hope that they'd see him again in

689
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 2: the afterlife. This might also explain why Jeff called Dave

690
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 2: for help getting out of the woods. If his plan

691
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: was to make his death look like a homicide, a

692
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 2: call for help just a few minutes prior would definitely

693
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: move investigators in that direction. As Charlotte noted in her report,

694
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:31,359
Speaker 2: the first time Jeff got lost may have actually been

695
00:37:31,400 --> 00:37:33,400
Speaker 2: an initial attempt at suicide.

696
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 9: Getting lost might have been an attempt or thinking he

697
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,799
Speaker 9: was going to but then he changed his mind for

698
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 9: whatever reason.

699
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:43,879
Speaker 2: I ran this theory past Russell, and let's just say

700
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: he wasn't impressed.

701
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:48,720
Speaker 10: That's someone else's theory, someone else's opinion.

702
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:50,160
Speaker 7: I don't think.

703
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 10: I mean, I just can't see someone doing that, Really,

704
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 10: I can't.

705
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,600
Speaker 2: I also consulted doctor Jeff Kalshewsky, a forensic psychologist who

706
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 2: you may remember from episode three of this season. You'll

707
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:02,960
Speaker 2: hear more from him later in the episode, but he

708
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,400
Speaker 2: thought this plan sounded a little too elaborate for someone

709
00:38:06,480 --> 00:38:08,520
Speaker 2: experiencing a mental health crisis.

710
00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 11: Most of the cases that I've had where suicides occurred,

711
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,360
Speaker 11: people were at the point where living is so unbearable

712
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 11: that they're going to take their own life, and they

713
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 11: don't tailor their plan around how it will affect loved ones,

714
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 11: they just carried out. However, there are a few cases

715
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 11: I've had, for example, it's a bit graphic, but I've

716
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 11: seen a couple of cases over the years where people

717
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 11: were going to take their life with a firearm and

718
00:38:38,120 --> 00:38:41,040
Speaker 11: they decided to shoot themselves in the heart rather than

719
00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 11: in the face because they were thinking about a funeral.

720
00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:45,840
Speaker 7: But that's as far.

721
00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 11: As I've seen it taken in my experience. When people

722
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 11: make that plan to take their own life, what you're

723
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,720
Speaker 11: talking about trying to make it look like a homicide

724
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 11: so that your parents won't be upset with you for

725
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 11: taking your own life. That is pretty detailed and pretty sophisticated,

726
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,240
Speaker 11: and I would have a hard time accepting that that theory.

727
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,919
Speaker 2: Russell also isn't sure why even if Charlotte is right

728
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: and Jeff used a knife to stage a homicide, he

729
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:17,320
Speaker 2: would stab himself eighteen times.

730
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 10: Now, I can't see him doing stab it himself. I mean,

731
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,480
Speaker 10: and that many times. This is a way. I really

732
00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 10: don't believe there's a possible way, human possible way that

733
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 10: you could kill yourself like that.

734
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 2: This is another objection I've heard quite a bit. It

735
00:39:32,719 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 2: seems like if for some reason you want to commit

736
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 2: suicide with a knife while you're carrying a firearm, you'd

737
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: try to get it over with. Jeff was a hunter.

738
00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 2: He worked in a meat processing facility. He was comfortable

739
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 2: handling a knife, and he knew how to kill something quickly.

740
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,560
Speaker 2: Why would he cause himself so much pain before finally

741
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 2: hitting his heart. There is no great answer to this question,

742
00:39:57,200 --> 00:40:00,120
Speaker 2: but we can glean some insight from the two percent

743
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 2: of suicide victims who take their lives with a knife.

744
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: It's a very uncommon way to kill yourself, but it

745
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 2: does happen.

746
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 9: When someone is stabbing themselves. There's what we call hesitation marks.

747
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,640
Speaker 9: So many of this dads are almost superficial. They call

748
00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 9: that like the testing what can I tolerate? That's not

749
00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,320
Speaker 9: unusual either to see those what they call the hesitation marks,

750
00:40:21,360 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 9: where they are just kind of trying to figure out

751
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:28,360
Speaker 9: what can I tolerate? So the number isn't really strange.

752
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,239
Speaker 2: Charlotte explained that while three of the wounds were deep

753
00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:34,160
Speaker 2: enough to pierce the heart, only one did enough damage

754
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: to cause immediate death. The other two were what Charlotte

755
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 2: described as a nick And I should point out here

756
00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: that we're not just relying on the original medical examiner's opinion.

757
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 2: Charlotte's team sent the photographs and information to three other

758
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 2: doctors and they all reached the same conclusion. As difficult

759
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 2: as it was to believe, the crime scene and autopsy

760
00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: pointed to suicide, and that conclusion was even more appealing

761
00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 2: given the lack of suspects. Investigators spoke to Jeff's family

762
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:06,280
Speaker 2: and friends, and none of them reported Jeff having any enemies,

763
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 2: and even if he did, that enemy would have had

764
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,160
Speaker 2: to know where he was hunting, find him in the woods,

765
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: and stab him to death without leaving a single trace.

766
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,759
Speaker 2: One of those friends also confirmed to Agent Goodman that

767
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:21,799
Speaker 2: Jeff owned a folding Kershaw knife. No one else at

768
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: the campground rose to suspicion, and Dave was also eliminated

769
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: from contention. Dave had voicemails and call logs to prove

770
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 2: he'd spoken to Jeff around eight thirty PM, and from

771
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,080
Speaker 2: that time forward he was in the company of other

772
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 2: hunters who'd helped him look for his friend.

773
00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 8: Based on our understanding of when the calls began to

774
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 8: be made, and with interviews with people that would have

775
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 8: been located at Holiday Park during that timeframe after he

776
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 8: had gone missing. There were people that were there camping

777
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,279
Speaker 8: and hunting and or fishing themselves that actually wanted to

778
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 8: join in the search for mister deep Part and that

779
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,919
Speaker 8: actually did to try to help locate him. So it's

780
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 8: my understanding very early on, like when some of those

781
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 8: calls came in, Yeah, he's going to be in a

782
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:10,160
Speaker 8: company of other people there at the campground, and.

783
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 9: We had a very accurate timeline because of the other

784
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 9: hunters that also corroborated David's story that Jeff was calling

785
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 9: on the phone that he was very panicked and that

786
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:22,880
Speaker 9: he kept saying he was lost.

787
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 2: What's more, they weren't able to find his blood anywhere

788
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,240
Speaker 2: on Jeff's body, or Jeff's blood anywhere on Dave's clothes.

789
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 2: They searched his truck and his camper, confiscated his knives

790
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 2: and equipment, and didn't find any reason to believe that

791
00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 2: Dave had killed his hunting buddy.

792
00:42:37,840 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 9: So these are the footprints that were found at the scene.

793
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,880
Speaker 9: But you can see this is David's boot and it

794
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 9: clearly does not match. And these were the only bootprints

795
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,239
Speaker 9: that were found at the scene. They also did not

796
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 9: match to any of the boots that were in the camper,

797
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:57,400
Speaker 9: because they also had additional pairs of shoes in the camper.

798
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,800
Speaker 2: With no suspects and a good deal of evidence pointing

799
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 2: to suicide, investigators sent the case file to the Tomb's

800
00:43:04,239 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 2: Judicial Circuit District Attorney's office, which convened a grand jury

801
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,040
Speaker 2: in August of twenty thirteen. They issued a decision, agreeing

802
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,320
Speaker 2: with the GBI and the medical examiner. Jeff's death was

803
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: ruled a suicide, and the case has been officially closed

804
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: ever since. I don't know how Jeff's immediate family feels today.

805
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:27,399
Speaker 2: His brother Jason was open to being interviewed, but after

806
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 2: a few emails back and forth, stopped responding to my messages.

807
00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: But I do know the family was at one point

808
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 2: doubtful of the GBI's conclusion, because they asked Charla and

809
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 2: her team to review the case in twenty eighteen.

810
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 9: I have not spoken to Jason since we gave our report.

811
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 9: You know, we didn't find the conclusion that he the

812
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 9: family wanted.

813
00:43:47,600 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 2: However the family feels these days, It's safe to say

814
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 2: that Russell isn't satisfied.

815
00:43:52,480 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 10: It was my sin. I'd want to know who killed him.

816
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,560
Speaker 10: It was something like that bizarre death. There's no way

817
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 10: I'm gonna accept it. Well, he went out shot buck

818
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 10: knife and he decided to cut himself all up and

819
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:06,439
Speaker 10: kill himself. Somebody is guilty of this crime that they've

820
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:09,840
Speaker 10: done to this man, Jeff, and it needs to be opened.

821
00:44:09,880 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 10: It needs to be a case that has looked after

822
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,280
Speaker 10: and until it is solved.

823
00:44:14,880 --> 00:44:17,640
Speaker 2: Whether you side with Russell or the GBI is up

824
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,240
Speaker 2: to you. But there's still one more question to ask,

825
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: and it might be the most important question of all

826
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 2: Part five, The Darkness of the Mind. It would be easier,

827
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,359
Speaker 2: though no less tragic, if investigators determined that Jeff had

828
00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 2: a secret mental health issue, if he'd shown signs of

829
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 2: depression or had some unresolved trauma in his past, maybe

830
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: we could square away his actions and tie them up

831
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 2: in a tidy box. But we can't.

832
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 9: No, he didn't have any mental health problems that we're

833
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 9: aware of.

834
00:44:57,200 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 8: I don't recall anyone ever communicat any potential cause as

835
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,720
Speaker 8: far as what may have led to mister gab Hart

836
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 8: wanting to take his own life, So I would say

837
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:16,120
Speaker 8: no in that instance. I don't recall anyone saying anything

838
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,440
Speaker 8: that would correlate him to, you know, be prone to

839
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,120
Speaker 8: being suicidal.

840
00:45:22,200 --> 00:45:25,239
Speaker 2: Even just a few hours after the incident. Dave reiterated

841
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 2: this in his interview with agents Goodman and Williamson.

842
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 3: Do you think Jeffer won't hurt himself?

843
00:45:31,960 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 4: Not that I know if he never mentioned anything to

844
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 4: me about hurting.

845
00:45:36,200 --> 00:45:38,399
Speaker 7: His sale him.

846
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 4: But he was the type of person that would have

847
00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 4: anybody if they needed help.

848
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 7: But I don't.

849
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 4: I don't think you'd heard hisself.

850
00:45:46,160 --> 00:45:49,359
Speaker 3: You haven't seen any letters, notes. If he doesn't leave

851
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 3: anything behind, you get the camp no sign.

852
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 2: The Jason Foundation reports that one in five individuals do

853
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: not show any signs of depression before committing suicide, so

854
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 2: it's possible Jeff was depressed and unstable and was able

855
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 2: to hide it. Charlotte also points out that even though

856
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:10,720
Speaker 2: the Gebharts never admitted their son had mental health issues,

857
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: they may have been hiding or even repressing Jeff's troubled mind.

858
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 9: One of the things that we talk about in the

859
00:46:17,040 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 9: report is, and we've seen this with other cold cases

860
00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:22,840
Speaker 9: that we've done, is we've had people that have called

861
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 9: and said, oh my gosh, my son has killed himself,

862
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 9: and then two months later they're like there's no way

863
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,319
Speaker 9: he would have killed himself. They're like, well, you even

864
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,839
Speaker 9: told us so at some point you thought he might,

865
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 9: because that's exactly what you said. And one of the

866
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,239
Speaker 9: things that the family kept saying was that he had

867
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 9: an accident, and they didn't start asking, well, who killed

868
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,880
Speaker 9: him or what happened or anything like that. So that

869
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,399
Speaker 9: was also part of what we thought might be unconscious

870
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 9: things that people don't think about, that maybe he did

871
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 9: have some issues that he had expressed.

872
00:46:57,160 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 2: Jeff's silence about his mental health issues isn't proof that

873
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 2: he didn't kill himself, but the way he did so

874
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:06,560
Speaker 2: suggests a level of emotional distress that would have been

875
00:47:06,600 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: tough to hide.

876
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 11: The amount of pain that's occurring with stabbing yourself seventeen times,

877
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,279
Speaker 11: you would have to be very motivated to take your

878
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:18,760
Speaker 11: own life. In other words, sometimes you'll see suicide attempts

879
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 11: with stabbing where they stab themselves once but it becomes

880
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,760
Speaker 11: overwhelming and they sort of back out of it halfway

881
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:27,840
Speaker 11: through the attempt. That's not that uncommon.

882
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: That's doctor Kolshewski again. He says seventeen stab wounds because

883
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 2: I misstated the number when I spoke to him. The

884
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 2: real number is eighteen. As per Charlotte's report, Doctor Kolshewski

885
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 2: works in a group psychology practice, so he hears about

886
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,759
Speaker 2: cases from the other doctors in his office as well

887
00:47:44,800 --> 00:47:48,200
Speaker 2: as his own. He told me it's extremely uncommon for

888
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:52,440
Speaker 2: someone to commit suicide without showing any warning signs.

889
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 11: There's always something there once you dig a little bit

890
00:47:56,160 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 11: below the surface. They interview people in the workplace. Co

891
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 11: workers have had no idea, We had no idea, But

892
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 11: usually people that are closer, when you dig a little deeper,

893
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 11: you'll find some things that would be consistent with creating

894
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 11: a plan and carrying it out to take your own life.

895
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: Jeff's decision to take his life in such an inaccessible

896
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 2: area is also inconsistent with suicide.

897
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,759
Speaker 11: A lot of times, if people make this plan to

898
00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 11: carry out taking their own life and they want to

899
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:24,319
Speaker 11: be found, a lot of them do they remain in

900
00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:26,000
Speaker 11: a place where it's going to be easy to find them,

901
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:29,880
Speaker 11: not wandering off into the woods carrying all your stuff.

902
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 11: So so many things to me are contra intuitive to

903
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:39,040
Speaker 11: a person planning and carrying out a suicide that it

904
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 11: just makes me ask so many more questions rather than

905
00:48:43,120 --> 00:48:46,600
Speaker 11: being able to narrow in on one theory as most likely.

906
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:48,719
Speaker 11: I'll tell you what. It's one of the oddists. If

907
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 11: it was a suicide, it's one of the artist suicides

908
00:48:51,400 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 11: I've ever seen or heard of, for sure.

909
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: Matt Garthright, one of the first game wardens on the scene,

910
00:48:57,080 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 2: also mentioned a theory that makes a brief appearance in

911
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 2: SLA's report. Maybe rather than hatching an elaborate plan to

912
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 2: kill himself and make it look like a homicide, Jeff

913
00:49:07,000 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 2: had some kind of mental break in the woods.

914
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 6: The only I guess you can call it a rumor

915
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:15,960
Speaker 6: that I heard was he was very scared of the

916
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 6: dark and spiders, so being lost in the woods, if

917
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 6: he did have that fear, could have resulted him doing

918
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 6: something that he would not usually have done.

919
00:49:26,200 --> 00:49:29,240
Speaker 2: And that's my theory. Of course.

920
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,600
Speaker 6: You know, he was lost in the thick grass area,

921
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 6: it was dark, and that may have led to his decisions.

922
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 2: It's tough to predict how someone will respond to extreme

923
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 2: stress or fear. Dave reported that his friend sounded almost

924
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,360
Speaker 2: hysterical on the phone, so it's possible he was having

925
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,520
Speaker 2: some kind of episode. But while doctor Kalshewsky acknowledges that

926
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:56,919
Speaker 2: people can have psychotic breaks, that mental instability doesn't come

927
00:49:57,000 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 2: out of nowhere.

928
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 11: He just don't, you know, walks through the woods and

929
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,280
Speaker 11: then ten minutes later have a psychotic break and kill yourself.

930
00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 11: If you were going to have a psychotic break, there

931
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:09,120
Speaker 11: would be evidence before that.

932
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 10: You know.

933
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,200
Speaker 11: The second thing is the idea that someone has a

934
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 11: psychotic break and immediately kills themselves in an elaborate way

935
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 11: doesn't fit either, because if you're talking about a psychotic

936
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:23,120
Speaker 11: break where you just kind of lose it and you

937
00:50:23,160 --> 00:50:26,560
Speaker 11: kill yourself, now we're talking about an impulsive act. Well,

938
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 11: if this indeed was a suicide, this was definitely not impulsive.

939
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 11: Seventeen stab wounds, so that doesn't jibe either. I think

940
00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 11: there's a lot of missing information here. And again when

941
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 11: I mentioned earlier, the idea of a psychological autopsy would

942
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 11: be something very important in this case if we really

943
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,520
Speaker 11: want to understand what happened, trying to understand a person's

944
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 11: frame of mind at the time of the incident, and

945
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 11: was from gathering all that data and all that information,

946
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 11: was he in a frame of mind where he could

947
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 11: have carried out taking his own life. And if we

948
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 11: don't see that, then again, just because the wounds aren't

949
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,720
Speaker 11: consistent with what you normally see in a homicide doesn't

950
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:10,200
Speaker 11: mean a homicide did not occur.

951
00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: Of course, there is one other theory, if you can

952
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 2: call it that more like a tidbit of information, and

953
00:51:19,400 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 2: you can do with it what you will. When I

954
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,400
Speaker 2: had finished asking Sergeant garthright my list of questions, I

955
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,000
Speaker 2: asked if there was anything else he wanted to cover.

956
00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:29,720
Speaker 2: Here's what he said.

957
00:51:30,280 --> 00:51:33,680
Speaker 6: This particular hunt happens every year, and for several years,

958
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 6: there's been a death on this hunt. So whether it

959
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 6: be a heart attack or you know, this situation here.

960
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 6: So it was a few years there that this hunt

961
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 6: was a kind of strange.

962
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 2: Really, So on this WMA, on this particular hunt, this

963
00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 2: early rifle hunt, people passed away for how many years

964
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:55,360
Speaker 2: in a row? Do you think?

965
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 6: I want to say three?

966
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 2: And were the others also suspicions are mysterious or you

967
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 2: mentioned a heart attack.

968
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 6: They were just there were natural health issues like a

969
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:05,920
Speaker 6: heart attack.

970
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:07,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, that must have been weird for you to be

971
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: called out there again several years, like what's going on

972
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 2: with this hunt?

973
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 6: That's that's exactly what we were thinking, what's up with

974
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:18,720
Speaker 6: this hunt? I kind of nickname him to death hunt.

975
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:20,759
Speaker 6: But for the last couple of years now we hadn't

976
00:52:20,760 --> 00:52:21,440
Speaker 6: had any issues.

977
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:22,240
Speaker 2: It stopped.

978
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,279
Speaker 6: But yeah, there was just a couple of years there

979
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,480
Speaker 6: that you know, somebody dragging a deer out got have

980
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,839
Speaker 6: a heart attack or or going to a stand and

981
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 6: you know, had a heart attack.

982
00:52:31,440 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's very strange. That's very strange. Part six,

983
00:52:42,160 --> 00:52:47,600
Speaker 2: No good answers Asian Goodman almost didn't talk to me

984
00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 2: about this case. He believes without question that Jeff committed suicide,

985
00:52:51,680 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: and he doesn't want to cause the geb Hearts more

986
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:58,680
Speaker 2: pain and confusion by casting doubt on that conclusion, something

987
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 2: true crime podcast are pretty much always going to do.

988
00:53:03,480 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 8: You know, always still think about them. I think about

989
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 8: the time that I met with his father, and being

990
00:53:09,040 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 8: a father myself, I could only you know, begin to

991
00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 8: imagine what that's like having to deal with. So I

992
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 8: would just want it to be said, you know, I

993
00:53:19,160 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 8: always still think about the family, and you know, I

994
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,760
Speaker 8: always want to be respectful anytime you know, I've spoken

995
00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 8: about this to their feelings on the situation.

996
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 2: I share that priority. But the fact is this isn't

997
00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 2: a case that's ever going to feel closed It's possible

998
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:39,319
Speaker 2: the GBI missed something or is hiding something, but that's

999
00:53:39,360 --> 00:53:42,560
Speaker 2: not really what I'm talking about. Even if we acknowledge

1000
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:48,280
Speaker 2: that Jeff stabbed himself eighteen times, we still don't know why.

1001
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:51,719
Speaker 2: We can speculate, but we'll never know for sure. And

1002
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 2: that's really the grit that gets stuck in the craw

1003
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:57,719
Speaker 2: of this story. It's hard enough to explain why a

1004
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:01,680
Speaker 2: young man would kill himself. It's another thing entirely to

1005
00:54:01,800 --> 00:54:04,400
Speaker 2: explain why he would do it with a pocket knife

1006
00:54:04,560 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 2: on a hunt, after calling his friend for help, and

1007
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 2: without showing any signs of depression. There's something we don't

1008
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 2: understand about this case, and right now we don't have

1009
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:18,200
Speaker 2: any good answers.

1010
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:22,440
Speaker 8: You opening theness of it. It can be a little anticlimactic,

1011
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:26,360
Speaker 8: and you never did that direct answer aside from physical

1012
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:29,880
Speaker 8: evidence and physical evidence isn't a talking person or the

1013
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 8: words of the person. And I think everybody just wants

1014
00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 8: some form of resolve, and in these types of cases,

1015
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:37,960
Speaker 8: you don't always get it.

1016
00:54:38,280 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 9: Like you said, it's all speculative. And one of the

1017
00:54:40,760 --> 00:54:42,479
Speaker 9: things we say in the report isn't the only person

1018
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:44,399
Speaker 9: who really knows the answers is the one person who

1019
00:54:44,400 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 9: can't answer them.

1020
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,120
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to this episode of Blood Trails. I

1021
00:54:56,160 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 2: want to encourage you, like we said at the top,

1022
00:54:58,360 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 2: to get help if you're feeling to pray or having

1023
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 2: thoughts of suicide. Hundreds and anglers are often loaners. We're

1024
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:08,440
Speaker 2: independent and self sufficient, but that sometimes means we don't

1025
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,960
Speaker 2: like asking for help. Don't let the fear of embarrassment

1026
00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:15,520
Speaker 2: or vulnerability keep you from reaching out. You can call

1027
00:55:15,560 --> 00:55:18,440
Speaker 2: the Mental Health Crisis Hotline at nine eight eight to

1028
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,919
Speaker 2: speak with a counselor. It's free and confidential, and they're

1029
00:55:21,920 --> 00:55:26,200
Speaker 2: trained to talk about whatever you might be facing. As always,

1030
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:28,760
Speaker 2: you can visit the meateater dot com slash blood trails

1031
00:55:28,880 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 2: to check out images related to this case. You can

1032
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 2: also send us an email at blood Trails at the

1033
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,440
Speaker 2: meateater dot com if you have feedback on this episode

1034
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: or know about another case you think we should cover.

1035
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:45,400
Speaker 2: Big Thanks to Special Agent Wendell Goodman, Charlotte Purdue, Russell Cornell,

1036
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 2: and doctor Jeff Kalshewsky. See you next time. Stay safe

1037
00:55:50,719 --> 00:55:51,080
Speaker 2: out there,