1 00:00:00,440 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger, the child refugee who rose to become US 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Secretary of State, has died at the age of one hundred. 3 00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:10,879 Speaker 1: He was one of America's most distinguished diplomats. Kissinger passed 4 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: away at his home in Connecticut, according to his statement 5 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:16,799 Speaker 1: from Kissinger associates. We get more on the life of 6 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger from Bloomberg's Nathan Hager. 7 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 2: Henry Albert Kissinger was born in nineteen twenty three in 8 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 2: the German state of Bavaria, the oldest son of a 9 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 2: Jewish school teacher, Kissinger was known as Heintz until he 10 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,760 Speaker 2: moved with his family to the United States in nineteen 11 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 2: thirty eight to escape Nazi persecution. At the age of nineteen, 12 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 2: while excelling at City College of New York, Kissinger was 13 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 2: drafted in the Army. He served as an interpreter in 14 00:00:41,880 --> 00:00:44,400 Speaker 2: the country of his birth during World War II, and 15 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 2: after the war he helped to round up Gestapo officers 16 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 2: as a member of the nine hundred seventieth Counterintelligence Corps. 17 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: In an interview with Bloomberg's editor in chief John Mickelthwade, 18 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,840 Speaker 2: Kissinger said he saw the first hand impact of authoritarianism 19 00:00:57,880 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 2: and totalitarianism in his youth. 20 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:05,800 Speaker 3: It was an experience which it's so elemental then it 21 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:07,039 Speaker 3: becomes part of you. 22 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 2: Kissinger brought that experience back with him to the United States. 23 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 2: He resumed his studies at Harvard University. His doctoral dissertation 24 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 2: there focused on balances of power in nineteenth century Europe. 25 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 2: As a tenured professor at Harvard, Kissinger honed of the 26 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: conservative real politic worldview that would dominate his thinking on 27 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: foreign policy for more than a half century. Kissinger also 28 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: cultivated relationships with policymakers in Washington that led him to 29 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 2: the White House in nineteen sixty nine as National Security 30 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 2: Advisor to President Richard Nixon. Kissinger's secret trips to China 31 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 2: in nineteen seventy one paved the way for arguably the 32 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 2: greatest foreign policy achievement of the Nixon presidency. His own 33 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: visit the following year. 34 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 4: Knowing of President Nixon's express desire to visit the People's 35 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 4: Republic of China, Premier jo and lae On, behalf of 36 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 4: the government of the People's Republic of China, has extended 37 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 4: an invitation to President Nexon to visit China. 38 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 2: The opening of China and an anti ballistic missile treaty 39 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 2: hammered out with the Soviet Union achieved what would become 40 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 2: known as Kissinger's triangular diplomacy, but his penchate for secrecy 41 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: would lead to controversy. Kissinger was the first person to 42 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 2: serve as both National Security Advisor and Secretary of State 43 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 2: at the same time. That allowed Nixon to run foreign 44 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 2: policy more or less directly from the White House. The 45 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:30,880 Speaker 2: president summed up his attitude in a taped conversation with 46 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 2: Kissinger about the Christmas Day bombing in Vietnam in nineteen 47 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:41,960 Speaker 2: seventy two. Kissinger fed into that paranoia about enemies in 48 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 2: the press by ordering wiretaps of reporters and White House 49 00:02:45,760 --> 00:02:49,519 Speaker 2: aids looking for leaks. That expanded use of surveillance led 50 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 2: to Nixon's resignation under the weight of Watergate, but the 51 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: weight of one major foreign policy decision would cloud Kissinger's 52 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 2: legacy for the rest of his long life. The Secret 53 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: War in Cambodia. Kissinger orchestrated the operation that dropped more 54 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 2: than one hundred thousand tons of bombs on North Vietnamese 55 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 2: positions in the country. It helped lead to the rise 56 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 2: of a genocidal Khmer Rouge regime after the war, but 57 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:16,519 Speaker 2: Kissinger would never stop defending his conduct in Vietnam, even 58 00:03:16,560 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 2: against critics who labeled him a war criminal. 59 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 3: Would say a better way At any one point, we 60 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:26,959 Speaker 3: didn't think so. I still don't think so, but I'm 61 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:32,079 Speaker 3: open to that argument. But what is meant by better? 62 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: That pragmatic approach to the world as it is, rather 63 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: than how policymakers might like it to be would inform 64 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: Kissinger's view long after he left public office and sought 65 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 2: to wield influence as a private citizen. At the age 66 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 2: of eighty eight, Kissinger wrote the book on China, about 67 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 2: the country he helped to bring back to the world stage. 68 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 2: In a twenty twenty interview at the Bloomberg New Economy Forum, 69 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 2: Kissinger warned of the risks of confrontation between the world's 70 00:03:56,480 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 2: two biggest economies. 71 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 3: Let's say it's some pass for some cooperative action de 72 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 3: Willsbill fld HMDU A catastrophe comfortable du wil. 73 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: Dulw Henry Kissinger worked to head off that catastrophe. After 74 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 2: he reached his one hundredth birthday as President, Biden sent 75 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 2: cabinet secretaries to Beijing in twenty twenty three to stabilize relations. 76 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: The one US diplomat that Chinese President Shi Jinping would 77 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:27,680 Speaker 2: meet face to face was the man he called an 78 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 2: old friend to China, former Secretary of State, Henry Kissinger. 79 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 2: I'm Nathan Hager Bloomberg Radio. 80 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 1: We thank Bloomberg's Nathan Hager for that report. Kissinger sat 81 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: down with Bloomberg editor in chief John Micklethwaite on June 82 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: seventh in New York City. They discussed his life and 83 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:50,679 Speaker 1: career upon turning one hundred years old. The conversation ranged 84 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: from his concerns that China could end up in a 85 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: military conflict with the US over Taiwan all the way 86 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:00,720 Speaker 1: to the future of President Vladimir Putin after Russher invasion 87 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: of Ukraine. He spoke about how his own worldview was 88 00:05:04,320 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: shaped by what he experienced as a Jewish teenager he 89 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,839 Speaker 1: escaped Nazi Germany and what he saw in the concentration 90 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: camps as an American soldier. Here's their conversation in its entirety. 91 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 5: There are few living people who have had as great 92 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 5: an impact on how the world stands today as Henry Kissinger. 93 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 5: He has advised American presidents since the nineteen sixties, stood 94 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 5: toe to toe with the likes of Chairman Mao Goldomeyir 95 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 5: and Vladimir Putin changed the fortunes of countries in ways 96 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 5: that are still admired, condemned, and debated. Seventy years ago, 97 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 5: as a young man at Harvard, Kissinger wrote that in 98 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 5: the life of every person, that comes a point when 99 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 5: he realizes that, out of all the seemingly limitless possibilities 100 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 5: of his youth, he has in fact become one actuality. 101 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:01,000 Speaker 5: One's journey across the meadows as indeed followed a regular path. 102 00:06:01,760 --> 00:06:04,919 Speaker 5: Having just celebrated his one hundredth birthday, you might imagine 103 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 5: Henry Kissinger's path is now set. In fact, he is 104 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 5: plainly still involved in public life, still talking to leaders 105 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 5: around the world. His legacy can be felt from Cuba 106 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 5: to Caro. But we've broken this interview into three geographic parts. 107 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 5: Europe where he was born, the United States, where he 108 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 5: found power and fame, and Asia, which he transformed. And 109 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 5: then we have a more personal epilogue to do with 110 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 5: that legacy. Henry Kissinger was born in nineteen twenty three 111 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 5: in the German town of Foth. Two years later, Adolf 112 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 5: Hitler came to the town to denounce its Jewish citizens. 113 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,960 Speaker 5: I began by asking Henry Kissinger how his first fifteen 114 00:06:57,040 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 5: years of persecution and chaos ended when his family escaped 115 00:07:01,960 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 5: to America in nineteen thirty eight, has shaped his worldview. 116 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 3: I spent my youth within a disintegrating society. The German 117 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 3: society was collapsing into the Hitler period that gradually, in 118 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:33,920 Speaker 3: each election the Nati period party gained, and then when 119 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 3: Hitler finally came to power, I, together with all my 120 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 3: family and all the people I knew well, became part 121 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 3: of a discriminated minority, living in a town in which 122 00:07:49,440 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 3: there were science at every public place that Jews are 123 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 3: not welcome here, and at the entrance to every town 124 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 3: venue that did drain or car or anywhere. So there 125 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 3: was my youth. 126 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 5: Do you think that your view of the world of 127 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 5: something that needed some degree of order if you look back. 128 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 3: I believe that for a tutality, or for a group 129 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 3: in which people lived, stability or to pre condition for creativity. 130 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 3: Now that's not a sord I had then so precisely, 131 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 3: but stability meant a great deal. 132 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:43,360 Speaker 5: The next time you came back to Germany was in 133 00:08:43,400 --> 00:08:46,679 Speaker 5: the war. You came back as a soldier. You fought 134 00:08:46,679 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 5: in the Battle of the Bulge, You saw the concentration camps, 135 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 5: you helped, you took part in this of the rounding 136 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 5: up of Nazis, all by the age of like twenty 137 00:08:56,160 --> 00:09:00,360 Speaker 5: four to twenty five. That is a hinterland that very 138 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 5: few people in modern politics have. If you look at 139 00:09:03,160 --> 00:09:06,640 Speaker 5: the people you dealt with, the gal Mau, all those 140 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 5: people that they had seen warfare well. 141 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:15,240 Speaker 3: I came back to Germany as a rifleman in the 142 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:21,240 Speaker 3: eighty fourth Infra Division of the US Army, and uh 143 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:28,960 Speaker 3: so I saw war in its most immediate form, under 144 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 3: circumstances in which you have fellowship with your fellow soldiers, 145 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 3: it's your hope of survival hm and everything depends on it. 146 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 3: And I was lucky that my fellow soldiers of that 147 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:57,280 Speaker 3: period were from northern Illinois and southern Wisconsin. Uh It's 148 00:09:57,320 --> 00:10:03,640 Speaker 3: called the rail Splitter Division after Lincoln R. And so 149 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 3: that was the environment to then as the battle neared 150 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,600 Speaker 3: the German border. After the bat during the Battle of 151 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 3: the Bolts, I was transferred to intelligence, which was still 152 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 3: at the front, but not right in it. For two 153 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 3: miles back at the in the civilian population. But so 154 00:10:32,520 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 3: I saw the impact of authoritarianism and totalitarianism in my 155 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 3: youth and of war in the next period. And so 156 00:10:52,840 --> 00:11:00,080 Speaker 3: it was an experience which it's so elemental that it 157 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:10,839 Speaker 3: becomes part of you, because the child both see dangers 158 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:22,440 Speaker 3: but also the sense of unity of a community when 159 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 3: when they believe in fundamental We know today that German 160 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:41,959 Speaker 3: tanks were probably better than our tent, but you could 161 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:47,359 Speaker 3: never convince American soldiers of it, because they were convinced 162 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 3: that if better tanks could be built, we'd be building. 163 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,559 Speaker 3: And I've never forgotten that. 164 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 5: For most of your life you were dealing with world 165 00:12:02,880 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 5: leaders who had had somewhat similar experiences. You could argue, 166 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 5: but they'd seen combat. But the last American president to 167 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 5: be in that state was the first President Bush. You 168 00:12:17,400 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 5: look around the leaders of the Western world. Now, they're 169 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 5: all people, some of them closer to my age than yours, 170 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 5: who've never seen those things. And I wonder whether you 171 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 5: think that makes a difference to world politics. Do you 172 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 5: worry about that with today's leaders. 173 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 3: I think that leaders who have not had any experience 174 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 3: of cadetrophy or at the edge of cadetrophe sometimes believe 175 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 3: they have more obsdence than they really do, and they 176 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 3: did characteristic of our It's fatterly in the its. 177 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 5: Because the one exception and possibly is Jijinping because he 178 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:05,320 Speaker 5: went through the Cultural Revolution, didn't he so he would 179 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 5: have had some experience of the terror that you would 180 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 5: have seen. 181 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 3: Well. For t a crucial experience was living in a 182 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:24,679 Speaker 3: cave with it. Further, after father Adami leader was purged 183 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 3: by Mao, and in his conversations before he became prejided, 184 00:13:31,880 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 3: he would refer to the fact that this experience made 185 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 3: him strong. 186 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 5: As you said, you grew up in this period of 187 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 5: chaos and disintegration. You are seen to be somebody who 188 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 5: wants to does not want Russia, if it loses the 189 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,520 Speaker 5: war in Ukraine, to be overly punished. Is that in 190 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 5: part because you saw what happened to Germany. The Germany 191 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,599 Speaker 5: before the First World War was a very seemed, a 192 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 5: very proud, successful country. The best university is the best, 193 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 5: all these things, and then humiliation and disintegration follows. Do 194 00:14:09,440 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 5: you worry about that with Russia? 195 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 3: I worry about the fact that Russia has been an 196 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 3: integral part of European history for six hundred years, and 197 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 3: in a very special way because it is infinitely larger 198 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 3: than any European country and it has always been part 199 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:43,239 Speaker 3: of Asia, the Middle East and Europe. That the unique 200 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 3: aspect of Russia in comparison to the European countries. So 201 00:14:50,880 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 3: it has been torn throughout its history between a desire 202 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 3: to become fully European and the fear of European technical 203 00:15:06,040 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 3: uh superiority or capacity. Europe will become more stable, the 204 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 3: world will become more stable when Ratia accepts the fact 205 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 3: that it cannot conquer Europe ah, but it has to 206 00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:31,800 Speaker 3: remain part of Europe by some sort of consensus as 207 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:36,880 Speaker 3: other states do UH. But a do Mond Rasa is 208 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 3: so crushed that it sees its being a factor of 209 00:15:41,680 --> 00:15:50,480 Speaker 3: international politics in other regions and becomes a subject for 210 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 3: European competition among the various states. So it is important 211 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 3: for Ukraine to be preserved and for Ukraine to emerge 212 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:14,800 Speaker 3: from the war as a autonomous, strong, in democratic country. 213 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 3: We have substantially achieved this objective h by now it 214 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:28,440 Speaker 3: can still be improved in terms of the borders of 215 00:16:28,680 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 3: Ukraine in the what I hope will be the concluding 216 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:40,480 Speaker 3: phases of the war. But I would prefer to preserve 217 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:47,720 Speaker 3: Prussia because the dissolution of Russia or the reduction of 218 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 3: rassure to resentful impotence. What said of a new set 219 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 3: of tensions, do. 220 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 5: You think Vladimir Putin is somebody who could live with? 221 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 4: You? 222 00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:03,640 Speaker 5: Said? You want a Russia that doesn't that realizes where 223 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 5: its borders are. 224 00:17:05,119 --> 00:17:10,399 Speaker 3: That's to remember two things about Vladimia Pudent. That he is, 225 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 3: on one level the inheritor of traditional Russia and therefore 226 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 3: has the tendencies towards as certain that I've described earlier. 227 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:32,400 Speaker 3: But there's also uh a Vladimirir Pudent who grew up 228 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: in the seats of Leningrad in which a over half 229 00:17:38,119 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 3: of the population died of starvation. Uh and under under 230 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 3: constance read but he has translated that into never warning 231 00:17:52,280 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 3: European military power to be in easy leads of f 232 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 3: Saint Petersburg and made sor cities like Moscow. So when 233 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 3: the border of Europe at the end of the war, 234 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:15,199 Speaker 3: which was the d military border of Europe, which was 235 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 3: in the center of Europe, moved to within three hundred 236 00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:27,119 Speaker 3: miles of Moscow, and maybe fifty miles of Saint Petersburg. 237 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:33,880 Speaker 3: He reacted very strongly, and as it turns out, at 238 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:35,640 Speaker 3: the edge of your rationality. 239 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 5: You once said to me that Ladim v. Putin was 240 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 5: more Dostoyevsky than Hitler. Do you still think of him 241 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:42,719 Speaker 5: in that way? 242 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 3: Well, I think he's a Dostoyevsky type figure, be set 243 00:18:47,080 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 3: by ambivalences and unfulfillable aspirations, but not devoted to power 244 00:18:57,240 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 3: in the abstract U, but very capable of HU using 245 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 3: UH power that it turned out he used it excessively 246 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 3: in relationship UH to UH to Ukraine. I would like 247 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 3: a Russia to RECOGNI that recognizes that its relations to 248 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:37,399 Speaker 3: but to Europe have to be based on agreement and 249 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 3: the kind of consensus. And I believe that this war 250 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: will if it ended properly, may make it achievable. 251 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 5: If it's ended on the terms you're describing. Do you 252 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 5: think Vladimir Putin can survive in power? 253 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 3: It's improbable. 254 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:02,680 Speaker 5: On the other side of the fence. With the moment 255 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 5: we have, the Ukrainian counter offensive seems to begun. Do 256 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 5: you see that as the last offensive before you have 257 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:16,440 Speaker 5: to move to diplomacy and peace. Talks of some sort. 258 00:20:16,720 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 3: Well. I began to urge moving to its diplomat a 259 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 3: year ago when I urged that the various parties to 260 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,360 Speaker 3: the conflict as themselves how they want to end it, 261 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 3: not that they would end it right at that point, 262 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,280 Speaker 3: but that they would know what their political aims were. 263 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 3: I think that becomes increasingly important as time goes on. 264 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 3: Let'st we wound up at a point where the war 265 00:20:55,160 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 3: becomes its own objective, and were military operations and military 266 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 3: relations between powered dominate all of this geopolitical thinking. And 267 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 3: at that point, countries like China will have to become 268 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 3: from their point of view, increasingly active. That would spread 269 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,200 Speaker 3: it into a world conflict. 270 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,360 Speaker 5: Do you think that that is actually the real danger, 271 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 5: that the Dombas doesn't become Europe's frontier with Russia becomes 272 00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 5: sort of Europe's frontier with China, that Russia gets driven 273 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 5: back into the arms of China. 274 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:46,359 Speaker 3: Well, it could happen because Ratia gets driven back, or 275 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 3: because Rasia collapsed and disintegrates. It's a functioning major or 276 00:21:56,320 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 3: tenament state, and therefore it was so in its current faith, 277 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:12,080 Speaker 3: which I support, I think we will correct and resistently 278 00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 3: attack on Ukraine. 279 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 5: We talked about China and Russia. One power that could 280 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 5: emerge much more powerfully from this particular episode is Germany. 281 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 5: Germany is probably the country that's going to rebuild Ukraine. 282 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 5: If it happens, it may be involved in rebuilding Russia. 283 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 5: And within Europe. If you visit Spain, if you visit Italy, 284 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 5: you can feel that the frontier of Europe has been 285 00:22:40,240 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 5: dragged to the east, so the center of Europe is 286 00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:47,600 Speaker 5: now closer to Berlin, so to speak, and that Germany, 287 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 5: by the fact it's been involved in supplying more arms 288 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 5: and everything like that, that it is it looks set 289 00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 5: to become a bigger power in Europe. Do you agree 290 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,440 Speaker 5: with that? Firstly and secondly do you think that Germany 291 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 5: is ready for that task? 292 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 3: I agree that the which is the description of the 293 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 3: transformation of the gender of gravity in Europe. It's been 294 00:23:16,600 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 3: inherent since before World War One and was one of 295 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 3: the causes of World War One because of the refusal 296 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:38,120 Speaker 3: of other countries to accept this reality, but also because 297 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:44,439 Speaker 3: of the inability of Germany to understand the transformation of 298 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 3: its own possism. Because the leading country has to be 299 00:23:53,800 --> 00:24:06,199 Speaker 3: an example of moderation and wisdom in balancing the interests 300 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:11,439 Speaker 3: of all the countries if there are to be participants 301 00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 3: in the system. And historically h Germany wanted to exercise 302 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 3: its potential by domination, and its tragedy has been after 303 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 3: the retirement of Pittmarck, the failure to learn this lesson, 304 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 3: which tracted into two training wards, which also the entire 305 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:59,000 Speaker 3: position of Europe in the world. So now it has 306 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:05,960 Speaker 3: is again in this position, and it has no leaders 307 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:13,159 Speaker 3: with an experience of either the Nazi period or of 308 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:19,160 Speaker 3: the war MM, so they have to construct the system 309 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:25,439 Speaker 3: by themselves, and they're new there in off, it's only 310 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 3: a year or so, and it is not a reflection 311 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 3: on their abilities, but a description of a new talent 312 00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 3: for them that hasn't existed in that form before. 313 00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 5: Do you think that also causes problems for the other 314 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 5: great powers? You know, you you wrote a lot of 315 00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 5: history about containing you know, first containing France, then containing Germany, 316 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 5: and now that now there is an issue. I mean, 317 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 5: if you if you are France. 318 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:04,520 Speaker 3: Well, if Germany was in conflict with France since the 319 00:26:04,560 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 3: Thirty Years' War in the seventeenth century, because French policy 320 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 3: was explicitly based on maintaining the balance of power, within 321 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 3: Central Europe, which in practice meant maintaining a division of 322 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 3: Germany between MM competing states and friends. Partly to mid states. 323 00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 3: The Germany made and Britain came to look at Germany 324 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:47,080 Speaker 3: as a said to its sea power. So when the 325 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 3: ball fell, the neither the British nor the French leader 326 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 3: were enthusiastic about the unification of Germany. But the reality 327 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,600 Speaker 3: is that British private it's in the eighties and seventies 328 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 3: when Germany was unified. It's the last major European country 329 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 3: to be unified in eighteen seventy one. Set set this 330 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 3: will have a greater impact than Diffrench Revolution. So we 331 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 3: are at this moment now when a new structure of 332 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:40,040 Speaker 3: Europe has to be created HM based on this reality. 333 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:48,760 Speaker 3: And I'm describing the challenge here, not the UH. I'm 334 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 3: not saying that the Germans have failed. It's new and 335 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 3: it's a new challenge for this generation. 336 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,640 Speaker 5: Also a challenge for France and Britain. Very quickly, they've 337 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 5: followed very different paths, especially since Sewers. You know, frances 338 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 5: has very much defined itself, often in opposition to America, 339 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 5: and it's buried itself in the European Union. The British, 340 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 5: by contrast, have tended to stick with the Americans. And 341 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 5: now they are outside the European Union. And you and 342 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 5: I can argue about who's got things right over the 343 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,359 Speaker 5: past fifty years, but we are where we are, and 344 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 5: I wonder you look at France and you look at Britain. Now, 345 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 5: who is better placed to go forward? Britain outside the 346 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 5: europe Union, France inside it. 347 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 3: Psychologically Britain it is fedow placed because in the structure 348 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 3: of the world that one can imagine appearing, whatever Europe 349 00:28:54,800 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 3: does to its own conception it r RelA cooperation with 350 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 3: America and pursuing parallel politics with America will have to 351 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 3: be an essential component on it because by itself opposing 352 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 3: all the other major power centers uh, Europe is in 353 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,120 Speaker 3: a difficult position to do that, and it may be impossible. 354 00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:36,720 Speaker 3: So Britain historically is better placed uh uh to do it. Uh. 355 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 3: Britain's problem is its connection, how to connect with Europe, 356 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 3: not how to connect with the United States. It has 357 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:58,720 Speaker 3: the history of the special partnership and an instinctive fear 358 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 3: in Britain. Th the danger comes from across the oceans 359 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 3: and comes from across the border, while in Europe the 360 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 3: instinctive ferience the danger comes from land invasions. So for 361 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 3: Britain to link to Europe has turned out to be 362 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 3: not possible organically, so it now has to be done 363 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 3: by policy. And I think. 364 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 5: That you actually think Britain would. I might disagree with 365 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 5: you on this, but you think that Britain is sort 366 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,280 Speaker 5: of psychologically happier outside the European Union. 367 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 3: Yes, I think it is, and I think it's also 368 00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 3: a great opportunity for it to act as a link 369 00:30:54,680 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 3: between a unifying Europe and America. 370 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: You're listening to a special conversation with distinguished diplomat and 371 00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:07,360 Speaker 1: former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. We'll have more 372 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,840 Speaker 1: of that conversation next. Henry Kissinger has died at the 373 00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: age of one hundred. We're listening to a special conversation 374 00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: he had with Bloomberg editor in chief John Micklethwaite not 375 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: too long ago. He discusses his life and career. Let's 376 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: hear more of that conversation. 377 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 3: Now, America has never been true to itself unless it 378 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 3: meant something beyond itself. 379 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 5: Henry Kissinger said those words about his adopted Homeland in 380 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 5: nineteen seventy three. He first arrived in the United States 381 00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 5: in nineteen thirty eight as a fifteen year old refugee. 382 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 5: I began the second part of our conversation about the 383 00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 5: United States by asking, if his life story was uniquely American, 384 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,200 Speaker 5: could he have achieved what he has done anywhere else? 385 00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 3: Absolutely uniquely American. I was at a dinner in Germany 386 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 3: when the German chancellor of the Democratic Germany was prison 387 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 3: and the American ambassador rather amazingly as the chancellor, what 388 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 3: would have happened to me in Germany if I had 389 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 3: survived due to this period? And he said, I would 390 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:48,960 Speaker 3: be a junior professor in Munich at Munich University. 391 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 5: That brings us very nice. That brings us very nicely 392 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 5: to the next phase of your life. You go to Harvard. 393 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,720 Speaker 5: I think at different times of your life you had 394 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 5: taught about chemistry and being an accountant, which is a 395 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:07,720 Speaker 5: wonderful image. But one of your mentors, Fritz Kramer, had 396 00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:11,160 Speaker 5: a phrase about you were you were musically tuned to history. 397 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,640 Speaker 5: You go to Harvard, and the other kind of great 398 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:19,760 Speaker 5: figure of your youth, Bill Elliott Oppressor at Harvard, directs 399 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 5: you towards the philosophy of history rather than just history itself, 400 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,200 Speaker 5: and that's where you get all the cant or the spinosa. 401 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 5: Is that a really important difference. You know, you've always 402 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 5: been obsessed not as by history, but the ideas behind it. 403 00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 3: Later on in life, my views, in those of many 404 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 3: of the academic community at Harvard can be teritibly described. 405 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 3: It's not veral. But in that period of my life, 406 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 3: which in a funny way was its second immigration into America, uh, 407 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 3: the first from Germany and the second from the army. 408 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:16,719 Speaker 3: Mm Uh, I haven't played a very important role because 409 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:24,400 Speaker 3: it gave me uh confident or inspiration, it's a better word, 410 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 3: into the direction I was sort of divided. I was 411 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 3: doing extremely well in chemistry, mostly based on memory, and 412 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 3: I went to see the head of the chemistry department. 413 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:47,960 Speaker 3: His name was Professor Kisyakovsky, became a very well known 414 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:54,800 Speaker 3: figure up and I asked him whether I should major 415 00:34:54,880 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 3: in chemistry, and he said, if you have to ask me, no, 416 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:07,560 Speaker 3: and so this then, but I've I was on that 417 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 3: other codes already inwardly, it gave me the confidence to 418 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 3: do it. The philosophy. I was most interested at first 419 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 3: in philosophy, in theory of knowledge, in theory of values. 420 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:26,440 Speaker 5: Mm. 421 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 3: But history it's a way to combine the inherent uncertainties 422 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 3: of philosophy. Inherent because so far no absolute answers have 423 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 3: ever been found by any civilization. With the results of 424 00:35:50,560 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 3: what actually happened, and the ads I progressed, I progress 425 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 3: in development, I became very philosophical. History became my dominance then. 426 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 3: And I think if one reads my books that seem 427 00:36:19,200 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 3: run through all of. 428 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 5: Them, where in your life is that the idea of 429 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,439 Speaker 5: the philosophy of history most most the ideas be most 430 00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 5: challenged by reality. You know, you've said that history is 431 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 5: interesting because you get reality conflicting. 432 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 3: Life is torn between managing the presence and the evolution 433 00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:51,960 Speaker 3: of the presence, so that in individual lives and of 434 00:36:52,080 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 3: course magnified into society's lives, there's always the ambiguity that 435 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 3: emphasis on the presence leads to stagnation, and that therefore 436 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 3: everything else around you will outstrip that society. And so 437 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:26,799 Speaker 3: how to strike that balance between ultimate values and what 438 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,719 Speaker 3: reality imposes on you? 439 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:30,440 Speaker 1: Uh? 440 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:37,040 Speaker 3: And reality is never quite adequate. But ultimate values are 441 00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 3: too absolute because they demand a degree of imposition on others. Ah, 442 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:51,520 Speaker 3: how to strike that balance is maybe it's maybe given 443 00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 3: to us. It's our insoluble problem to keep a motivation 444 00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 3: at the appropriate level. 445 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,680 Speaker 5: Isn't that quite interesting? Isn't that also the story of 446 00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:10,360 Speaker 5: American foreign policy? You have this, You've always argued that 447 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 5: there's a set of ideals that America wants to. 448 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 3: Yes, it's best. The problem for America, Yeah, because we 449 00:38:17,560 --> 00:38:22,439 Speaker 3: have been ex closed as it is possible to be, 450 00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 3: to be satisfied with where we are, and we've been 451 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:33,520 Speaker 3: protected by two great oceans because whenever the society in 452 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:38,560 Speaker 3: the almost every place else, every place else was tempted 453 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:48,879 Speaker 3: to be excessively satisfied with itself, its neighbors intruded on them. 454 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,040 Speaker 3: It was very difficult to do that in America because 455 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:56,160 Speaker 3: of these oceans. But after World War two and now 456 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:03,200 Speaker 3: increasingly so uh, and now it's artificial intelligence totally. So 457 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:12,919 Speaker 3: we are part of an international global system, and it 458 00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 3: goes beyond internationally, it goes beyond its universal system. And 459 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 3: we have simultaneously to adjust to that and conducted day 460 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:31,719 Speaker 3: to day policy with countries that have the same situation 461 00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,800 Speaker 3: and with other countries that grow up to our level 462 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:44,640 Speaker 3: of achievement. That never existed before in history. 463 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:47,440 Speaker 5: You've always said America should balance a sort of shining 464 00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 5: city on a hill, complex with reality. And you look 465 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,200 Speaker 5: at the last you look at the last Cold War, 466 00:39:55,920 --> 00:39:58,720 Speaker 5: and America won it by kind of singing a song 467 00:39:58,760 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 5: of liberty of those ideals, but also by doing really 468 00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 5: basic things helping people, the Marshall Plan and things like that. 469 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 5: If you go to America's allies, they will say America 470 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 5: doesn't talk about those ideals any longer. It just talks 471 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 5: about America first. And in terms of trade deals and 472 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 5: things like that, America isn't you know, it's not even 473 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 5: doing trade deals with its allies in either Asia or Europe. 474 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,040 Speaker 5: So that America, in a strange way, is more disconnected 475 00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 5: from what it should be than it has been. 476 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:35,040 Speaker 3: Well, actually, in fact, America it's not more disconnected. It's 477 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 3: probably more connected than it's been. In word, it's considered 478 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,920 Speaker 3: the great period of American history, except that during the 479 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:51,319 Speaker 3: Marshall Plan at the end of World War two, oh, 480 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,279 Speaker 3: this was new, so it was in a new experience, 481 00:40:56,600 --> 00:41:03,120 Speaker 3: and it would therefore it became very significant in day 482 00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:08,319 Speaker 3: to day thinking of policy makers. Now policy makers are 483 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:14,640 Speaker 3: torn between and at that time we had over fifty 484 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:19,000 Speaker 3: percent of the world's gross national product. Now we are 485 00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 3: down to about twenty four percent, which is still a 486 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 3: huge percentage, and it's still extremely influential percentage, but it 487 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 3: requires us to be more discriminating. So it looks as 488 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:44,399 Speaker 3: if we are entrenching the problem that bothers me. It's 489 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:51,000 Speaker 3: not right basically, the entrenching, but the we have not 490 00:41:51,160 --> 00:42:01,200 Speaker 3: yet found a concept that unified Americans, and so now 491 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:07,839 Speaker 3: the advocacy of the realization that we need a new 492 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:16,200 Speaker 3: idea for world order, it's dunk to a much smaller 493 00:42:16,239 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 3: group that existed at the end of World War Two. 494 00:42:21,239 --> 00:42:26,160 Speaker 3: Our talents is conceptual more than practical. 495 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:29,319 Speaker 5: When you came to power, America had had a long 496 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 5: period where it had been able to lecture the world. 497 00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 5: America was going through great difficulties then, you know, it 498 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:37,759 Speaker 5: was going through things at the gas price. You had 499 00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 5: all these things going wrong, and America didn't. You had 500 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 5: to scramble, You had to try and find allies. You 501 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,400 Speaker 5: had to try and make things work. You've had another period, 502 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:51,160 Speaker 5: you know, from the Berlin Wall onwards, where where America 503 00:42:51,200 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 5: seemed very strong. Now again it's it's stuck having to 504 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:58,600 Speaker 5: make allies having to find balances. Is there a comparison 505 00:42:58,640 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 5: there at all? 506 00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:06,880 Speaker 3: We now are living in an in in a world 507 00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:22,279 Speaker 3: of uh unprecedented complexity. Uh the need for allies exists. 508 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:28,040 Speaker 3: But what allies are supposed to do in given circumstances? 509 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:34,120 Speaker 3: And now the alliances are supposed to operate when every 510 00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:39,800 Speaker 3: issue has a global component but not not every issue 511 00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 3: has a comparable interest for every country, so that countries, 512 00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 3: they all have a global interest in global h stability, 513 00:43:52,920 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 3: but they don't have the same interest in the immediate situation. Secondly, 514 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:07,560 Speaker 3: there head now when I was given the opportunity to 515 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 3: participate in policy making, that was essentially the seventies and 516 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:24,160 Speaker 3: and early eighties, all these issues were discussing, were beginning 517 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 3: in they were in their infancy and uh so that 518 00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:36,680 Speaker 3: their very existence was in dispute. And one of the 519 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:42,800 Speaker 3: contributions of Nixon was that he was willing to face 520 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:49,600 Speaker 3: these new uh, these n new realities. But now they're 521 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:57,320 Speaker 3: upon us. Uh and in that sense, it's an evolution 522 00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:03,160 Speaker 3: of the problems as huge us in New ques. 523 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,960 Speaker 5: Do you think now America is a worse ally? I mean, 524 00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,759 Speaker 5: if you go to if I go to Paris, or 525 00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 5: I go to Chakato. They will say all we hear 526 00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:15,799 Speaker 5: from America is we hear America first, and we hear 527 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:17,719 Speaker 5: we don't want to do trade deals. We don't want 528 00:45:17,760 --> 00:45:20,440 Speaker 5: to do things with you. There is no there is 529 00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,919 Speaker 5: no sense of reaching out. And they would probably say 530 00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,200 Speaker 5: that Joe Biden is a little bit more polite than 531 00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:27,520 Speaker 5: they're more helpful. 532 00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,360 Speaker 3: They'd invade with in America had shifted to the extens 533 00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:41,799 Speaker 3: So the difference between say, liberal Republicans and Democrats in 534 00:45:41,920 --> 00:45:47,400 Speaker 3: its evident ages was about the degree of a participation 535 00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:53,800 Speaker 3: in which they both say it. In the present period 536 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:59,160 Speaker 3: did invade they had shifty two. It seems in which 537 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:06,880 Speaker 3: days an extreme theory of America First, which is applied 538 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:10,960 Speaker 3: on both sides, but in such a way that it 539 00:46:11,520 --> 00:46:17,319 Speaker 3: that it focuses too much on American interests and not 540 00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:25,600 Speaker 3: on global interests. That is a challenged, but anyone who 541 00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:31,080 Speaker 3: wants to conduct a series American foreign policy must balance 542 00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:35,279 Speaker 3: it two or America will become isolated. 543 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 5: Do you think the current administration is isk is doing 544 00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 5: a serious job at that. 545 00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:47,480 Speaker 3: I think the current administration is trying to do a 546 00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:52,319 Speaker 3: serious job of that, but it is so afraid of 547 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:56,920 Speaker 3: attacks on itself, that it doesn't do itself justice. 548 00:46:57,280 --> 00:47:01,640 Speaker 5: You were a Rockefeller Republican. Nowadays there are no Rockefeller Republicans. 549 00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,759 Speaker 5: There's there's there's Democrats on one extreme, there's Republicans on 550 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:08,640 Speaker 5: the other. The center of American politics. The fact it's disappeared, 551 00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:15,040 Speaker 5: do you think that that has dramatic foreign policy locations? 552 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:22,120 Speaker 3: I think that sender still exists, but it doesn't have 553 00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:29,000 Speaker 3: fully it doesn't. I have an articulate expression here, would you. 554 00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:31,240 Speaker 5: Ever like to see an independent party in America? 555 00:47:32,080 --> 00:47:35,160 Speaker 3: Well, independent bodies in America. I have not had a 556 00:47:35,200 --> 00:47:40,040 Speaker 3: good faith, but I do well think it is important 557 00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:49,160 Speaker 3: to maintained an argument for the philosophy that I have maintained. 558 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:56,239 Speaker 3: Not because I have maintained it, but because it reflects 559 00:47:56,320 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 3: the necessity of a period. And that becomes magnified if 560 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:11,560 Speaker 3: you consider that we are now in the field of 561 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:19,760 Speaker 3: artificial intelligence, at the very beginning of a colossal transformation 562 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 3: of human consciousness, which will have to be built into 563 00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:29,920 Speaker 3: this foreign policy. 564 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,040 Speaker 5: But we have a paradox, don't we. You have these issues, 565 00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:37,520 Speaker 5: you have artificial intelligence, you have climate change, you have 566 00:48:37,640 --> 00:48:42,840 Speaker 5: maybe the global economy where interconnectedness is incredibly important. But America, that. 567 00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:49,680 Speaker 3: Is in the current world. But the essence of what 568 00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:56,720 Speaker 3: I'm concerned about, it's that we have opened the door 569 00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:04,680 Speaker 3: to a dialogue with objects and with machines. That that 570 00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:12,239 Speaker 3: when when the printing press was invented, it transformed to 571 00:49:12,480 --> 00:49:18,239 Speaker 3: human consciousness and said, of what we call now the Enlightenment, 572 00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,439 Speaker 3: which has been going on for five hundred years. Now 573 00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:28,480 Speaker 3: we are a these machines. What is the esence of 574 00:49:28,520 --> 00:49:34,280 Speaker 3: these machines? We ask a question of these machines. These 575 00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:42,480 Speaker 3: machines are then capable of encumbaging all the knowledge that 576 00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:46,560 Speaker 3: we have taught them, but that we cannot contain in 577 00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:52,239 Speaker 3: one brain nor one machine. Look at it, give us 578 00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:56,759 Speaker 3: an answer, and we act on the basis of that. 579 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,520 Speaker 3: That is a new reality that has that will be 580 00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:09,799 Speaker 3: studied for decades like the old new reality was when 581 00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:16,080 Speaker 3: the printing credits permitted exchanging information easily. 582 00:50:16,360 --> 00:50:18,520 Speaker 5: But the pretty printing press was at the time of 583 00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,960 Speaker 5: nation states or nation states were coming to the fore 584 00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 5: where you had an immediate need to interact with other ones. 585 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:29,959 Speaker 5: It was part of what appeared AI is coming part 586 00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,160 Speaker 5: in it as you described in America, which is not 587 00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 5: is not doesn't have more. 588 00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:39,440 Speaker 3: But I think America will be driven by reality in 589 00:50:40,040 --> 00:50:45,480 Speaker 3: studying what i've and so below all other countries. It's 590 00:50:45,560 --> 00:50:50,120 Speaker 3: not an American thing, but it's become a high tech thing. 591 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:58,520 Speaker 3: So therefore it will be a dialogue between Therefore, the 592 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:03,800 Speaker 3: dialogue between America and China will become more important, or 593 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:10,400 Speaker 3: even more crucial. But it will change the way we 594 00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:19,280 Speaker 3: interpreted reality because due to our achievement, we have found 595 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:25,520 Speaker 3: the key to a new aspect of reality which we 596 00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:26,680 Speaker 3: didn't know existed. 597 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:32,040 Speaker 5: One last thing on America, Given the huge complexity of 598 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,680 Speaker 5: what you've described, do you think that a presidential election 599 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:40,239 Speaker 5: between Joe Biden and Donald Trump offers somebody who is 600 00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,560 Speaker 5: capable of dealing with that degree of complexity. 601 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:52,600 Speaker 3: It's gonna be very difficult. It's it's it's a painful question. 602 00:51:54,120 --> 00:52:02,680 Speaker 3: We have to live with what exists, and we mustn't 603 00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:05,799 Speaker 3: turn our disputes into civil wars. 604 00:52:06,280 --> 00:52:09,840 Speaker 1: You're listening to a special conversation with distinguished diplomat and 605 00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:13,160 Speaker 1: former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. We'll have more 606 00:52:13,160 --> 00:52:16,200 Speaker 1: of that conversation next. 607 00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,640 Speaker 5: The third part of our conversation centered on Asia, perhaps 608 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,920 Speaker 5: the place where Kissinger's had the most enduring impact for 609 00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:28,000 Speaker 5: most people now that impact is represented by China, which 610 00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:30,760 Speaker 5: Kissinger and Richard Nixon helped open up to the West. 611 00:52:31,000 --> 00:52:33,560 Speaker 5: But his first encounter with Asia, and the area of 612 00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:37,040 Speaker 5: his life is critics focus on, was into China. I 613 00:52:37,160 --> 00:52:40,080 Speaker 5: put it to Kissinger that although Nixon and he plainly 614 00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,480 Speaker 5: inherited a mess in Vietnam in nineteen sixty eight, by 615 00:52:43,560 --> 00:52:47,280 Speaker 5: nineteen seventy five, North Vietnam had taken control of Saigon 616 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:51,239 Speaker 5: in Cambodia, which America had bombed, was a disaster. I 617 00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:54,720 Speaker 5: asked him whether from the perspective now of nearly fifty years, 618 00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:57,200 Speaker 5: there was anything he would have done differently. 619 00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:06,879 Speaker 3: Honestly, leave, We did the best we could. We inherited 620 00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:11,960 Speaker 3: the war in which five hundred and fifty thousand Americans 621 00:53:12,600 --> 00:53:17,080 Speaker 3: now five hundred thousand were in place, and fifty thousand 622 00:53:17,280 --> 00:53:22,640 Speaker 3: more had already been ordered to go there, and we're 623 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:29,200 Speaker 3: on the way UH to go there. In America, public 624 00:53:29,280 --> 00:53:35,479 Speaker 3: opinion had turned in a significant way against the war 625 00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:42,440 Speaker 3: and in violent demonstrations UH in the seats, among out 626 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:51,799 Speaker 3: the international public. Everybody was against the war, but they 627 00:53:51,880 --> 00:54:01,080 Speaker 3: also were for Americas defending them. So our gradibi around 628 00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:08,839 Speaker 3: the world depended accidents today on our ability to perform 629 00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:17,040 Speaker 3: the tasks we had assigned ourselves. We have comparable problems 630 00:54:17,120 --> 00:54:27,040 Speaker 3: today in issues in Taiwan and elsewhere Ukraine. So our 631 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:32,200 Speaker 3: resistant was to try to end the war under condition 632 00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:39,280 Speaker 3: in which we a in which the control over their 633 00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:44,760 Speaker 3: own destiny became fell more and more into the hands 634 00:54:44,800 --> 00:54:53,520 Speaker 3: of the South Vietnamese. We gradually withdrew our troops, conducted negotiations, 635 00:54:54,600 --> 00:55:02,279 Speaker 3: but also conducted enough military operations so that our adversary 636 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:09,920 Speaker 3: now quasi ally, but our then adversary did not become 637 00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:15,600 Speaker 3: convinced that he could take over. Uh. We did not 638 00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:20,440 Speaker 3: want in afghan what Lady was in Afghanistan style withdrawal, 639 00:55:21,560 --> 00:55:26,160 Speaker 3: which was for twenty five hundred people. We had five 640 00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,800 Speaker 3: hundred and fifty thousand people, bloss a million armed. We 641 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:38,600 Speaker 3: in amazing place. So was it at every stage conducted 642 00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:44,759 Speaker 3: with the absolutely would say a better way at any 643 00:55:44,880 --> 00:55:50,080 Speaker 3: one point we didn't think so. I still don't think so. 644 00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:57,600 Speaker 3: But uh, I'm open to that argument. But but what 645 00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:05,239 Speaker 3: is meant by better? We reduced American casualties substantially, so 646 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:08,719 Speaker 3: that by the last year of the war they were 647 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:13,560 Speaker 3: in the thousands. UH. When the Nixon administration came in. 648 00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:20,880 Speaker 3: They were reduced to less than a hundred in the 649 00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:25,720 Speaker 3: last year of the war, and we withdrew from ground 650 00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:34,400 Speaker 3: combat within two years, at all times maintaining a negotiation. 651 00:56:37,080 --> 00:56:46,800 Speaker 3: The irreducible demand we had was an autonomous democratic government 652 00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:53,640 Speaker 3: in South Vietnam that was not granted until the last 653 00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,719 Speaker 3: three months of the war, which is why they were 654 00:56:56,800 --> 00:57:00,840 Speaker 3: the last three months of the war. At that point 655 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:05,719 Speaker 3: we settled, But then the next question became could we 656 00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:13,480 Speaker 3: maintain the settlement. We believed that we could maintain the 657 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:21,360 Speaker 3: settlement as we did in South Korea, against all but 658 00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:26,840 Speaker 3: an all out invasion from the North, at which point 659 00:57:26,920 --> 00:57:34,720 Speaker 3: alliance issues were a varis. But we believed against foreseeable infiltrations, 660 00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:42,120 Speaker 3: we could maintain the autonomy of the of the government 661 00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:49,040 Speaker 3: and we could maintain it against even significant attacks. But 662 00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:57,520 Speaker 3: then Watergate occurred within two months of the settlement, and 663 00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:05,160 Speaker 3: the Congress, reflecting public opinion, forbade any kind of military 664 00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:13,080 Speaker 3: action in over in Near Vietnam. At that point, uh 665 00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:21,040 Speaker 3: we d it w had become and had destroyed the basis. 666 00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:28,280 Speaker 3: It was painful. It was the saddest moment of my 667 00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:35,560 Speaker 3: public life when I had to sit in the Security 668 00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:46,200 Speaker 3: Advisor's office and recommend the final withdrawals, and I published 669 00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:53,200 Speaker 3: in my memoirs conversations with President Ford to show how 670 00:58:53,240 --> 00:59:02,640 Speaker 3: painful he found it to agree to these recommend I 671 00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:07,640 Speaker 3: think the time we gained enabled us. By the time 672 00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:14,120 Speaker 3: the war was ended, we had already opened to China, 673 00:59:14,560 --> 00:59:18,840 Speaker 3: and that in turn, or China had opened to us. 674 00:59:19,960 --> 00:59:24,120 Speaker 3: Either way, but that was the crucial turning point of 675 00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:33,240 Speaker 3: the Cold War, and also a created a structure from 676 00:59:33,320 --> 00:59:42,440 Speaker 3: which we could have maintained or at least given the 677 00:59:42,520 --> 00:59:49,680 Speaker 3: vietnamse a reasonable chance. During the debates and the pressures, 678 00:59:50,480 --> 00:59:54,680 Speaker 3: many things were said that can now be s used 679 00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:59,680 Speaker 3: to indicate different views. But this was our resential views, 680 01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:07,480 Speaker 3: and I'm sure that any later books that are written 681 01:00:07,520 --> 01:00:11,919 Speaker 3: on the subject that have access to material will see 682 01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,640 Speaker 3: that this was what we thought and acted on. 683 01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:18,160 Speaker 5: It's pretty quick on that. You think the in the end, 684 01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,320 Speaker 5: the end, and the end justified all the collateral damage 685 01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:22,040 Speaker 5: of hanging on that. 686 01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:27,400 Speaker 3: No, the energy for us, uh, the end we were 687 01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:32,960 Speaker 3: aiming for was an honorable piece. By honorable peace, we 688 01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:37,000 Speaker 3: meant a piece in which we did not turn over 689 01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:42,040 Speaker 3: the people who had relied on us to the domination 690 01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:47,720 Speaker 3: of those whom they had fought relying on our promises. 691 01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:56,040 Speaker 3: That was our definition of the end. We honestly believed 692 01:00:57,480 --> 01:01:06,040 Speaker 3: that we had achieved that, and in presenting his proposal, 693 01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:12,040 Speaker 3: the North Vietnam Meets negotiated, Lee Doctor. The crucial point 694 01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:18,760 Speaker 3: was in October nineteen seventy two when the North Vietnam 695 01:01:18,840 --> 01:01:24,920 Speaker 3: Meets negotiated turned over a proposal and then ready to 696 01:01:25,040 --> 01:01:29,960 Speaker 3: DS and said this is essentially what President Nixon has 697 01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:38,080 Speaker 3: proposed in January. At that point I asked for a recess. 698 01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:43,520 Speaker 3: And my closes associated that point was a man called 699 01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:49,560 Speaker 3: Vinceton Lot Hm went on to a distinguished career, and 700 01:01:49,640 --> 01:01:54,680 Speaker 3: he had sort of resigning at the time we uh 701 01:01:55,000 --> 01:02:00,720 Speaker 3: fought in Cambodia. And I told him, then you have 702 01:02:00,760 --> 01:02:04,960 Speaker 3: two choices. You can go outside and walk around with 703 01:02:05,080 --> 01:02:12,400 Speaker 3: a blacket, oh, you can help end it work. And 704 01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:17,600 Speaker 3: so at that moment I turned to Winston or such 705 01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:22,000 Speaker 3: Americans at that point, and I turned to him and 706 01:02:22,120 --> 01:02:25,600 Speaker 3: I said, we've done it. Turned out to be a 707 01:02:25,680 --> 01:02:31,920 Speaker 3: sad statement, because yeah, we hadn't, because we could not 708 01:02:32,160 --> 01:02:42,520 Speaker 3: maintain the domestic support that was needed to sustain it. Ah. 709 01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:48,880 Speaker 3: But the effort if the effort had not been made, 710 01:02:49,360 --> 01:02:51,880 Speaker 3: and if we had gone to either of the other 711 01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:59,880 Speaker 3: extreme solutions, one of it was to go all out 712 01:03:01,200 --> 01:03:06,000 Speaker 3: upon coming into office before the ground had been laid 713 01:03:06,120 --> 01:03:16,200 Speaker 3: with Russia and China, or to withdraw unconditionally and tried 714 01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:21,880 Speaker 3: to extricate hundreds of thousands of troops while the enemy 715 01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:27,480 Speaker 3: was still around them. In the foe mened local people 716 01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:34,440 Speaker 3: might have turned against us. Was uh was not U 717 01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:40,000 Speaker 3: was not acceptable, and there were no other terms that 718 01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:47,040 Speaker 3: could have been n uh n uh negotiated. That was 719 01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:56,240 Speaker 3: the reality ah that we faced, and so in retrospect 720 01:03:57,920 --> 01:04:06,640 Speaker 3: President Nixon came to believe and actually I thought already 721 01:04:06,760 --> 01:04:10,840 Speaker 3: at that time we should have considered a more all 722 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:19,160 Speaker 3: out military solution at the beginning. But reflecting about it, 723 01:04:19,240 --> 01:04:24,280 Speaker 3: at the time we had had assassinations in America HM 724 01:04:24,320 --> 01:04:30,400 Speaker 3: and already violent demonstrations. That was probably more theoretical than practical. 725 01:04:31,600 --> 01:04:36,040 Speaker 3: So that was our thinking, of course, that it's all 726 01:04:36,160 --> 01:04:37,720 Speaker 3: below it's been debated. 727 01:04:38,640 --> 01:04:41,240 Speaker 5: The other bit, which you you mentioned as being in 728 01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:46,600 Speaker 5: part a reason why staying there made sense was China. 729 01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,440 Speaker 5: From that point of view, you went there, you hope it. 730 01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:55,680 Speaker 3: Was important for us to show we ended up it 731 01:04:56,800 --> 01:05:02,080 Speaker 3: convinced that a country of the magnitude of China and 732 01:05:02,160 --> 01:05:05,840 Speaker 3: the history of China could not be kept out of 733 01:05:05,880 --> 01:05:10,320 Speaker 3: the international system, and that we could not keep it 734 01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:14,240 Speaker 3: out of the international system, that it would find a 735 01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:22,920 Speaker 3: way to enter it, and so we began effort to 736 01:05:24,600 --> 01:05:31,320 Speaker 3: open relations. At that moment, China had withdrawn all its 737 01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:41,240 Speaker 3: ambassadors from every country in the world except to Poland 738 01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:51,800 Speaker 3: and Egypt. And Poland was maintained in the Geneva Agreement 739 01:05:51,920 --> 01:06:01,520 Speaker 3: of nineteen fifty four as a contact point between America 740 01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:11,120 Speaker 3: and China, and negotiations began on a regular patis, that is, 741 01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:15,600 Speaker 3: between the ambassadors. That there were one hundred and sixty 742 01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:22,600 Speaker 3: two meetings between nineteen fifty four and nineteen seventy one, 743 01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:27,160 Speaker 3: none less and more than a day, because each began 744 01:06:28,640 --> 01:06:36,040 Speaker 3: with the Chinese demanding the immediate return of Taiwan to 745 01:06:36,240 --> 01:06:44,240 Speaker 3: China and with the Americans demanding that the UH China 746 01:06:45,640 --> 01:06:53,000 Speaker 3: affirm its commitment to a commitment to a peaceful evolution 747 01:06:54,480 --> 01:07:00,640 Speaker 3: of the process. Neither demand was accepted, and so we 748 01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:09,920 Speaker 3: began from that basis and then went through many contortions 749 01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:18,360 Speaker 3: to establish contact and exploring many e ways of possibly 750 01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:25,280 Speaker 3: doing it, and finally found a way when President Nixon 751 01:07:25,760 --> 01:07:35,440 Speaker 3: told Yakub Khan in Pakistan that we wanted contact, that 752 01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:40,080 Speaker 3: to convey to the Chinese that we wanted a real dialogue, 753 01:07:40,680 --> 01:07:48,960 Speaker 3: and we emphasized it by sending an embarassador in Poland, 754 01:07:50,120 --> 01:07:57,200 Speaker 3: the impacted in Poland to approach the Chinese embassador at 755 01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:03,800 Speaker 3: any social function which all impacted and were invited, which 756 01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:09,880 Speaker 3: turned out to be a Yugoslav fashion show, and one 757 01:08:10,000 --> 01:08:20,240 Speaker 3: normally doesn't associate with Yugoslavia. But we uh approached him, 758 01:08:20,439 --> 01:08:28,960 Speaker 3: and it was at that moment we the embattlor a 759 01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:33,840 Speaker 3: few weeks later drove up to our office to our 760 01:08:33,920 --> 01:08:39,719 Speaker 3: empathy and said they were ready to begin negotiations. Those 761 01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:44,160 Speaker 3: other contortions through which things were conducted at the time, 762 01:08:45,960 --> 01:08:54,840 Speaker 3: but from there we worked together with China on the 763 01:08:54,920 --> 01:09:02,400 Speaker 3: specific problem of enabling in a dire which gave for 764 01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:10,040 Speaker 3: us something additional to think about, and then led to 765 01:09:10,160 --> 01:09:15,160 Speaker 3: the eating of the Cold War and the culmination of 766 01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:24,960 Speaker 3: the Vietnamese agreements and subsequent evolution of Journeese American relations. 767 01:09:25,120 --> 01:09:27,960 Speaker 5: There's always a metaphor. Well, I think the first time 768 01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:29,720 Speaker 5: you said we were in the foothills of a new 769 01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:32,440 Speaker 5: Cold War and then we went up to the mountain passes. 770 01:09:33,200 --> 01:09:36,400 Speaker 5: Then the world was on a precipice looking over. But 771 01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:40,439 Speaker 5: each time we talk, the relationship between America and China 772 01:09:40,479 --> 01:09:43,000 Speaker 5: seems to be worse. Is that Is that true today? 773 01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:47,160 Speaker 3: I say we are now at the top of the precipice, 774 01:09:49,160 --> 01:09:54,280 Speaker 3: and one of the big problems is both sides needed 775 01:09:54,280 --> 01:09:59,000 Speaker 3: to step back from it several days. If one of 776 01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:04,760 Speaker 3: them stepped ba back, it is falling. So both have 777 01:10:04,960 --> 01:10:10,280 Speaker 3: to decide to take the tension out of this situation. 778 01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:21,000 Speaker 3: But there's an inherent diff difficulty in that relationship. China 779 01:10:21,080 --> 01:10:24,160 Speaker 3: had been a great country for much of its story, 780 01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:30,880 Speaker 3: but in the period that prior to the assumption of 781 01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:39,519 Speaker 3: relations in the terms of measuring power uh China was 782 01:10:40,240 --> 01:10:44,919 Speaker 3: much weaker hm than the U than the United States. 783 01:10:46,080 --> 01:10:52,559 Speaker 3: Its capacity was to stir up difficulty all over the 784 01:10:52,600 --> 01:11:01,440 Speaker 3: world by using its diplomatic and potential commercial in influence. 785 01:11:02,360 --> 01:11:07,799 Speaker 3: As China grew in strengths, which was inherent in opening 786 01:11:07,840 --> 01:11:20,040 Speaker 3: the relationship uh it's it c gained the capacity of 787 01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:26,800 Speaker 3: threatening the United States. In the nature of modern technology 788 01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:35,840 Speaker 3: and the nuclear age from the beginning raised the issue 789 01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:42,719 Speaker 3: that countries developing nuclear weapons and the capacity to deliver 790 01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:48,640 Speaker 3: them HM were able to inflict the amount of damage 791 01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:55,120 Speaker 3: that would normally require years of warfare, so that therefore 792 01:11:55,160 --> 01:12:03,160 Speaker 3: their capacity to influence actions by threats grew. That was 793 01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:07,760 Speaker 3: the dilemma of the nuclears to begin with, and it 794 01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:13,400 Speaker 3: was one reason why many of us thought negotiations for 795 01:12:13,560 --> 01:12:21,960 Speaker 3: the reduction of that that were important. So with respect 796 01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:30,160 Speaker 3: to Chinese American relations MM and China grew stronger, and 797 01:12:30,240 --> 01:12:35,600 Speaker 3: as the American debate became more complicated, as we've discussed 798 01:12:35,720 --> 01:12:44,920 Speaker 3: earlier mm UH, and as the Chinese governments changed over 799 01:12:44,960 --> 01:12:55,880 Speaker 3: the years, UH, the tension became harder and harder to manage, 800 01:12:56,400 --> 01:13:02,240 Speaker 3: and on the American side, it became him it's object, 801 01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:08,559 Speaker 3: which it had not been, of domestic politics, so that 802 01:13:08,800 --> 01:13:14,840 Speaker 3: candidates are now influenced by the degree of which their 803 01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:22,680 Speaker 3: opponents can accuse them of selling out of China HM. 804 01:13:22,760 --> 01:13:32,800 Speaker 3: So that it's the current problem, however, and it is 805 01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:40,559 Speaker 3: a unique situation in the sense that the biggest threat 806 01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:45,839 Speaker 3: of each country it's the other. That it's the biggest 807 01:13:45,880 --> 01:13:51,360 Speaker 3: threat to China, it's America in their perception, and the 808 01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:56,439 Speaker 3: same it's true here that the Chi that the biggest 809 01:13:56,479 --> 01:14:07,280 Speaker 3: threat on the other hand, ors have become either unwinnable 810 01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:16,439 Speaker 3: with the advanced weapons or venerable only at courts said 811 01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:24,640 Speaker 3: out of proportion and so out of port efforts to negotiate, 812 01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:26,880 Speaker 3: which China and I've been urging them. 813 01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:31,080 Speaker 5: There's one interesting thing you said. You pointed out there 814 01:14:31,080 --> 01:14:35,040 Speaker 5: in America that politics has changed because successive yet leaders 815 01:14:35,479 --> 01:14:39,479 Speaker 5: and the elections people fight. In China, you've had one leader. 816 01:14:39,800 --> 01:14:42,800 Speaker 5: You've a jaging thing now for over ten years. So 817 01:14:42,960 --> 01:14:45,720 Speaker 5: the fact that it's got worse in China is that 818 01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:49,479 Speaker 5: his fault. What what is has he gone in the 819 01:14:49,520 --> 01:14:50,160 Speaker 5: wrong direction? 820 01:14:51,360 --> 01:14:58,120 Speaker 3: Well, what he has done is the so called wolves diplomacy, 821 01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:04,400 Speaker 3: en which China needs leader. Chinese diplomats were urged in 822 01:15:04,439 --> 01:15:09,960 Speaker 3: effect to throw around their weight the in re s 823 01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:20,400 Speaker 3: so in relations with say Australia, which of a dramatic 824 01:15:20,720 --> 01:15:27,920 Speaker 3: reduction of Chinese trait because of some political and other 825 01:15:29,280 --> 01:15:33,799 Speaker 3: statements that had been made. It's a problem with little 826 01:15:33,800 --> 01:15:41,240 Speaker 3: bit comparable to what we did cussed before about Germany 827 01:15:41,400 --> 01:15:47,320 Speaker 3: before nineteen fourteen, that Germany had suddenly became a great 828 01:15:48,800 --> 01:15:57,439 Speaker 3: power and after it t h pit Mark at first 829 01:15:57,600 --> 01:16:04,280 Speaker 3: had to h Ye did not know how to apply 830 01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:09,640 Speaker 3: it in a way that translated into diplomatic results. 831 01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:13,000 Speaker 5: You described Deng Shaping, for instance, as a great man. 832 01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,120 Speaker 5: Do you think of Jijinping as a great man? 833 01:16:17,280 --> 01:16:27,080 Speaker 3: Well, T is dung Chapin had finished his that had 834 01:16:27,280 --> 01:16:31,679 Speaker 3: finished its destiny or its role. 835 01:16:33,720 --> 01:16:34,960 Speaker 5: H t. 836 01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:43,240 Speaker 3: Came in after a cultural revolution which wiped out many 837 01:16:43,360 --> 01:16:54,800 Speaker 3: of these experienced leaders, and I don't describe him now 838 01:16:55,200 --> 01:17:01,320 Speaker 3: as a great man, but I think he's foul doing golds, 839 01:17:02,840 --> 01:17:09,560 Speaker 3: which might earn him the title and the American president 840 01:17:09,920 --> 01:17:16,360 Speaker 3: if they achieve a real balancing of relationship between the 841 01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:17,160 Speaker 3: two countries. 842 01:17:17,280 --> 01:17:20,519 Speaker 5: What chances do you see of of an invasion of 843 01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:24,120 Speaker 5: Taiwan sometime in the next three four years on the 844 01:17:24,160 --> 01:17:26,559 Speaker 5: current trajectory of relations. 845 01:17:26,680 --> 01:17:31,840 Speaker 3: Well, on the current trajectory of relations, I think some 846 01:17:32,400 --> 01:17:40,840 Speaker 3: military conflict it's probable, But I also think the current 847 01:17:40,920 --> 01:17:50,040 Speaker 3: prajectory of relations must be altered and full the beads 848 01:17:50,200 --> 01:17:57,400 Speaker 3: preceding our discussion, there have been signs on both sides 849 01:17:58,840 --> 01:18:04,160 Speaker 3: of trying to end them. They have not yet actually 850 01:18:04,400 --> 01:18:13,280 Speaker 3: engaged in the sort of dialogue that that I suggest it, 851 01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:18,519 Speaker 3: but I think they're moving towards it, and I leave 852 01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:21,840 Speaker 3: my mind open in relation to the outcome. 853 01:18:22,600 --> 01:18:24,720 Speaker 5: The other thing which has happened is that China has 854 01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:30,000 Speaker 5: got more involved in things beyond its traditional region. You know, 855 01:18:30,000 --> 01:18:34,480 Speaker 5: you've seen China talking to Zelensky. You saw China brokering 856 01:18:34,520 --> 01:18:38,080 Speaker 5: a kind of truth between I Iran and Saudi Arabia. 857 01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:42,519 Speaker 3: It should be an inevitable part of these discussions that 858 01:18:42,680 --> 01:18:47,080 Speaker 3: both sides explained to each other what their core interests 859 01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:53,800 Speaker 3: are and determine how do I handle situations in which 860 01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:59,920 Speaker 3: they are core into its clash and I would hope 861 01:19:00,360 --> 01:19:07,960 Speaker 3: to resolve into its in which CoInc it's class without conflict, 862 01:19:09,040 --> 01:19:14,600 Speaker 3: or managed to avoid situations of clerging coincines. 863 01:19:15,240 --> 01:19:17,600 Speaker 5: At the moment, you have India, which seems to be 864 01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:22,120 Speaker 5: a non aligned country. It is not on one side 865 01:19:22,200 --> 01:19:25,000 Speaker 5: or the other. Would would it? Would a younger Kissinger 866 01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:27,439 Speaker 5: now focus from an American point of view of trying 867 01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:31,320 Speaker 5: to bring India, which will be the next great power, 868 01:19:31,520 --> 01:19:32,840 Speaker 5: onto the American side. 869 01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:41,600 Speaker 3: I have no. I have not dealt with India for 870 01:19:45,080 --> 01:19:49,559 Speaker 3: in terms of years, even longer than I've dealt with China, 871 01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:54,280 Speaker 3: and at the early period of my dealing with India, 872 01:19:54,920 --> 01:20:01,000 Speaker 3: their non alignment or a suit of considerable irritation because 873 01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:04,800 Speaker 3: it took the form of lecturing arts on the virtues 874 01:20:04,880 --> 01:20:09,120 Speaker 3: of non alignment. That choice was open to them, but 875 01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:13,320 Speaker 3: not to us. When you are in a cold war, 876 01:20:14,200 --> 01:20:17,160 Speaker 3: you can retreat from it and say you're not going 877 01:20:17,200 --> 01:20:24,240 Speaker 3: to choose non alignment. But in the decades Wi which 878 01:20:24,280 --> 01:20:30,560 Speaker 3: I've dealt with India said, since I think their policy, 879 01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:42,320 Speaker 3: their current policy is extraordinarily thoughtful, and I have great 880 01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:52,439 Speaker 3: respect for their foreign minister, who is a very i 881 01:20:52,479 --> 01:20:58,559 Speaker 3: would say brilliant executor of that of that policy. India 882 01:20:58,680 --> 01:21:04,240 Speaker 3: is a great power, and over the decades ahead, it 883 01:21:04,320 --> 01:21:10,479 Speaker 3: will grow very comfortably to China, maybe not quite of 884 01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:14,000 Speaker 3: the same string, but it doesn't matter at that point 885 01:21:14,960 --> 01:21:22,320 Speaker 3: exactly it it will be of sufficient strength to uh 886 01:21:22,600 --> 01:21:32,839 Speaker 3: sud itself, and so it performs best when it defends 887 01:21:32,880 --> 01:21:40,160 Speaker 3: its own interests, which overlap many of ours. Our interests 888 01:21:40,200 --> 01:21:44,400 Speaker 3: as a great power are to prevent any country from 889 01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:50,719 Speaker 3: dominating the world or its regions in such a way 890 01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:56,960 Speaker 3: that we lose our influence. To achieve important objective. 891 01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:01,240 Speaker 1: You're listening to a special conversation with distinguished diplomat and 892 01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:04,599 Speaker 1: former US Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. We'll have more 893 01:22:04,600 --> 01:22:06,640 Speaker 1: of that conversation next. 894 01:22:09,920 --> 01:22:13,200 Speaker 5: The final part of our conversation focused on legacy and 895 01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:18,000 Speaker 5: the personal side. Henry Kissinger has remained a pretty private person. 896 01:22:18,560 --> 01:22:22,320 Speaker 5: In an age where leaders like to play on emotional narratives, 897 01:22:22,960 --> 01:22:26,680 Speaker 5: he has, as we shall shortly see, tended to suppress 898 01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:31,320 Speaker 5: his backstory even when it might win him sympathy. One 899 01:22:31,439 --> 01:22:34,160 Speaker 5: constant in the three decades that I've known him has 900 01:22:34,200 --> 01:22:37,360 Speaker 5: been football. His first question on seeing me was why 901 01:22:37,400 --> 01:22:41,000 Speaker 5: had Leicester City, my football team, just been relegated from 902 01:22:41,040 --> 01:22:44,760 Speaker 5: the Premier League. He has followed Firth, which itself got 903 01:22:44,800 --> 01:22:48,839 Speaker 5: relegated from the Bundesliga last year since he was a boy. Indeed, 904 01:22:48,880 --> 01:22:51,240 Speaker 5: he and his brother were beaten up by Nazi thugs 905 01:22:51,320 --> 01:22:55,080 Speaker 5: for trying to sneak into a game. You have lived 906 01:22:55,080 --> 01:22:58,720 Speaker 5: one hundred years and Firth is yet to win the Bundesliga. 907 01:22:59,040 --> 01:23:01,240 Speaker 5: How long would you have to live for that to happen? 908 01:23:01,439 --> 01:23:06,639 Speaker 3: Oh, it would come close to the definition to giving 909 01:23:06,720 --> 01:23:08,640 Speaker 3: us a definition of infinity. 910 01:23:10,000 --> 01:23:13,200 Speaker 5: I've read a lot of things you've written, and nothing 911 01:23:13,360 --> 01:23:15,720 Speaker 5: quite as sort of powerful as this. And it's it's 912 01:23:15,800 --> 01:23:18,880 Speaker 5: in Neil Focuson's book. It was a private essay you 913 01:23:18,960 --> 01:23:23,679 Speaker 5: wrote when you visited our concentration camp. When you age, 914 01:23:23,680 --> 01:23:26,400 Speaker 5: I think just twenty two, and especially you meet this 915 01:23:26,560 --> 01:23:30,639 Speaker 5: inmate called Felxama, and you say, Felix Samer, your foot 916 01:23:30,640 --> 01:23:33,519 Speaker 5: has been crushed so that you can't run away. Your 917 01:23:33,560 --> 01:23:36,720 Speaker 5: face is forty, your body is ageless. Yet all your 918 01:23:36,720 --> 01:23:39,920 Speaker 5: certificate reads is sixteen. And I stand there with my 919 01:23:40,000 --> 01:23:43,360 Speaker 5: clean clothes and make a speech to you and your comrades, Felixamer. 920 01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:48,400 Speaker 5: Humanity stands accused in you, I, Joe Smith, human dignity. 921 01:23:48,479 --> 01:23:51,639 Speaker 5: Everybody has failed you. You should be preserved in cement 922 01:23:51,800 --> 01:23:54,840 Speaker 5: up here on the hillside for future generations to look 923 01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:58,799 Speaker 5: upon and take stock human dignity. Objective values have stopped 924 01:23:58,840 --> 01:24:02,320 Speaker 5: at this barbedoir. As long as conscience exists as a 925 01:24:02,360 --> 01:24:05,800 Speaker 5: conception in the world, you will personify it. Nothing done 926 01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:09,080 Speaker 5: for you will ever restore you. You are eternal in 927 01:24:09,120 --> 01:24:12,040 Speaker 5: this respect. Obviously had a very profound experience in you. 928 01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:14,600 Speaker 5: But if something you chose to keep so private for 929 01:24:14,600 --> 01:24:17,240 Speaker 5: a long time is that do you think that's a 930 01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:20,040 Speaker 5: different way of people seeing Henry Kissinger. 931 01:24:20,160 --> 01:24:26,439 Speaker 3: It was a feeling that its concentration camp evoked in me. 932 01:24:26,960 --> 01:24:36,840 Speaker 3: I wrote that within a week of having seen the 933 01:24:37,400 --> 01:24:44,720 Speaker 3: level of dehumanization that we can imagine that people were 934 01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:54,439 Speaker 3: too weak to hurt the god that kept them and 935 01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:59,360 Speaker 3: be killed some people by mistake by giving them solid food. 936 01:25:02,320 --> 01:25:07,040 Speaker 3: A but it so I wrote that for myself. I 937 01:25:07,080 --> 01:25:14,680 Speaker 3: had no intention of publishing it, because feelings about humanity 938 01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:24,160 Speaker 3: can affect your own actions. A biographer discovered it mm 939 01:25:24,280 --> 01:25:28,439 Speaker 3: not among papers I gave him, but it ref It 940 01:25:29,280 --> 01:25:40,120 Speaker 3: reflects an underlying reality that we have to recognize its 941 01:25:40,280 --> 01:25:48,680 Speaker 3: lurking behind our technical capacities, and that we need to 942 01:25:51,160 --> 01:26:00,679 Speaker 3: contain and prevent from breaking and to you, to prevent 943 01:26:00,840 --> 01:26:04,639 Speaker 3: the bearing side from breaking out. 944 01:26:05,640 --> 01:26:07,439 Speaker 5: When you look back at your life now from one 945 01:26:07,479 --> 01:26:10,040 Speaker 5: hundred year point of view, do you think that has 946 01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:13,960 Speaker 5: been the core of it? Is trying to do that. 947 01:26:15,120 --> 01:26:22,759 Speaker 3: It's been an important core of it. But I don't advertise. 948 01:26:22,120 --> 01:26:24,599 Speaker 5: It on that thing. I know you're you're one hundred, 949 01:26:24,640 --> 01:26:28,240 Speaker 5: you're talking about writing two more books. But how if 950 01:26:28,280 --> 01:26:30,320 Speaker 5: not for that, how would you like to be remembered. 951 01:26:31,200 --> 01:26:40,519 Speaker 3: It's out of my control. I tried to do. They're 952 01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:43,439 Speaker 3: best I could within the frameburg that we. 953 01:26:43,479 --> 01:26:46,720 Speaker 5: Have did good, Henry Quest, thank you very much for 954 01:26:46,760 --> 01:26:50,040 Speaker 5: talking to Bloomberg. A very delayed happy birthday, Thank you 955 01:26:50,200 --> 01:26:50,599 Speaker 5: very much,