Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.
Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.
Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.
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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at
Speaker 1: gmail dot com.
Speaker 2: Trust me.
Speaker 3: Trust Me. I'm like a swat person. I've never lived.
Speaker 3: To you, I've never had a live.
Speaker 2: If you think that one person has all the answers,
Speaker 2: don't welcome to trust to Me. The podcast about cult
Speaker 2: extreme belief manipulation from two Internet girlies who've actually experienced it.
Speaker 2: I'm Li Lablanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth. And today our
Speaker 2: guest is a woman who we're gonna call Nora, and
Speaker 2: she's going to talk to us about a Facebook group
Speaker 2: for women in Los Angeles called Girls' Night Out that
Speaker 2: ended up getting quite culty. We'll talk about why it
Speaker 2: was exciting in the beginning to connect with other women
Speaker 2: in a new way. Megan and I were both in it,
Speaker 2: so we were there. How other sub groups began to form,
Speaker 2: including one secret exclusive one that we were not in.
Speaker 2: And how the main admin who were calling Vivian seemed
Speaker 2: to be creating a space that prioritized social justice, equality
Speaker 2: and helping other people.
Speaker 1: At first, Noura is going to tell us how the
Speaker 1: culture of the secret smaller group Girls' Night In began
Speaker 1: to change, becoming a place where it was considered normal
Speaker 1: and even cool to post nudes into the group, send
Speaker 1: them to other people's boyfriends, and attack anyone who deviated
Speaker 1: from Vivian's ideas about what was good or bad. We'll
Speaker 1: talk about the red flags that slowly popped up along
Speaker 1: the way, the controversies that made Nora begin to question,
Speaker 1: and how the group finally collapsed.
Speaker 2: And obviously this week has been very heavy in the
Speaker 2: world and there is a lot of grief happening. There's
Speaker 2: a lot of ongoing trauma happening, and I do want
Speaker 2: to address that, but I'm going to talk about that
Speaker 2: probably next week because this is just a lighter episode
Speaker 2: and doesn't feel like the right fit. So before we
Speaker 2: get into it with Nora, Megan, what is your cultiest
Speaker 2: thing this week?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to keep it slumber party vibes this
Speaker 1: week with my cultiest thing as well, there's a show
Speaker 1: called Secret Lives of Mormon Wives that's becoming very popular.
Speaker 1: One of the things I've really taken away from it
Speaker 1: is that these women are pouring like diet coke with
Speaker 1: creamer to kind of create their own version of coffee.
Speaker 1: And it actually, I'm a diet coke obsessed fanatic. It
Speaker 1: actually looks kind of great.
Speaker 2: Okay, that sounds delicious. Not gonna lie As a yeah,
Speaker 2: diet coke fan, and as a cream fan, I like,
Speaker 2: I want to drink this. I haven't watched the show yet,
Speaker 2: but I was very into that TikTok drama. So I've heard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and former Mormon, can you just tell us a
Speaker 1: little bit why you can't drink coffee, but why you
Speaker 1: could drink diet coke.
Speaker 2: We weren't supposed to drink soda growing up. That's newer,
Speaker 2: so Joseph Smith. I believe in the beginning, alleged some
Speaker 2: scripture somewhere said no strong drink, so no coffee, no tea,
Speaker 2: and you know that was extrapolated upon to include caffeinated
Speaker 2: beveragest you. But people have relaxed a bit about that
Speaker 2: in recent right.
Speaker 1: There's still much They're still not going to go full coffee,
Speaker 1: but a diet coke with some cream is fine, and
Speaker 1: just watching them mix it all up, it's it's it's
Speaker 1: just so, it looks so good. So anyway I might
Speaker 1: do it, I might not to be determined. What about you,
Speaker 1: what's the lightest yet cultiest thing that's happened to you
Speaker 1: this week?
Speaker 2: Okay, it's not exactly light, but oh but it is
Speaker 2: just kind of an update, which is about I'm not
Speaker 2: going to get into the details because the details are
Speaker 2: pretty harrowing, but my mother testified in court finally, I believe,
Speaker 2: last week about this new self proclaimed prophet in the
Speaker 2: FLDS community who named Sam Bateman, who committed some horrific uh,
Speaker 2: you guys can read about it. I'm not even going
Speaker 2: to go into it. But there were children involved, there
Speaker 2: were families involved, and my mom she was finally able
Speaker 2: to testify about her role in taking him down, which
Speaker 2: is she started recording him and basically like brought it
Speaker 2: to the authorities who said they needed more evidence, so
Speaker 2: my mom went undercover. I think we'll be hearing a
Speaker 2: lot more about how this actually transpired. But my mom
Speaker 2: took on this extremely risky endeavor in this group that
Speaker 2: was making threats on their enemies and did it of
Speaker 2: her own accord. You know, she has some conspiracy theorists
Speaker 2: who believe some made up thing, but it's all documented now.
Speaker 2: And yeah, if you guys want to read about it,
Speaker 2: there's an article on courthousenews dot com called Arizona men
Speaker 2: found guilty of aiding religious child sex abuse ring and
Speaker 2: you can read about my mom's role in taking that
Speaker 2: predator down. So that's my update.
Speaker 1: Your mom is an icon, She's everything. I love her
Speaker 1: so much. And wow, yeah, that definitely wasn't a slumber party,
Speaker 1: but also needed to know it, and I don't know,
Speaker 1: I'm just kind of trying to tie the two together.
Speaker 2: Listen, it's not a slumber party vibe, but listen, an
Speaker 2: undercover woman taking down a bad guy. That's kind of
Speaker 2: slumber party.
Speaker 1: That's kind of slumber party. I think you know both
Speaker 1: can be true nuance.
Speaker 2: Okay, God, sorry, it's news.
Speaker 4: It is no No. I love your cultiust thing. I
Speaker 4: love your cultiust thing.
Speaker 2: Thank you.
Speaker 4: Shall we start talking to Nora.
Speaker 2: Let's do it. Welcome Nora. Quotation marks Nora to trust me.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for being here, because this is
Speaker 2: something Megan and I have both been very curious about
Speaker 2: for a very long time. We are going to talk
Speaker 2: about a Facebook group that we were all in and
Speaker 2: nine not to the extent that others were. Shall we say,
Speaker 2: can you please explain to us what the group Girls'
Speaker 2: Night Out was?
Speaker 3: Girls' Night Out. Girls' Night Out was a quote unquote private,
Speaker 3: secret Facebook group based out of Los Angeles for women only,
Speaker 3: and it started off mainly as just a networking group,
Speaker 3: a social event group just for women in LA. And
Speaker 3: there were about twenty thousand members when I joined, so
Speaker 3: it was you know, if you bump into anyone in public,
Speaker 3: chances are every other girl is that group. You know,
Speaker 3: LA is huge, but it's small at the same time.
Speaker 3: So yeah, yeah, girls Night Out was a and still
Speaker 3: is around, a private Facebook group for women in LA
Speaker 3: to network.
Speaker 2: And let's talk about before we kind of get into
Speaker 2: the more personal side of it, Like what was the
Speaker 2: appeal of this group for you? Because I know for
Speaker 2: me at the time, Facebook groups are still kind of
Speaker 2: new ish, and I was like, oh my god, I've
Speaker 2: never gotten to like connect with women so directly, and
Speaker 2: it was really exciting.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for me, it was appealing. I think most women
Speaker 3: in the group, and most women in LA are transplants,
Speaker 3: as they're called, so we're not from here. We didn't
Speaker 3: move here with a ton of friends. Some of us did,
Speaker 3: but for the most part, you move out here, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe one or two people. And it was just an
Speaker 3: easy way to meet other women in LA and other
Speaker 3: people that you have things in common with. And the
Speaker 3: group would also throw a lot of events they had,
Speaker 3: like swim nights at the Roosevelt and bowling nights and
Speaker 3: all these different events that you can go to and
Speaker 3: sort of you know, strengthen your social anxiety and meet
Speaker 3: women that you had things in common with. And yeah,
Speaker 3: the appeal was friendship and community basically, and it.
Speaker 4: Was the most supportive group on the planet.
Speaker 1: You could write anything and everyone would be like, that's girlfriend,
Speaker 1: Like I got you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was definitely the appeal of like women's empowerment,
Speaker 3: and it was just very supportive for the most part.
Speaker 3: There were definitely, as we call them, gates, gates you know,
Speaker 3: with yeah, when like something happens, it's a blah blah
Speaker 3: blah gate.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah.
Speaker 3: So yeah, for the most part, but you know, if
Speaker 3: you take twenty thousand of anything anyone, there's going to
Speaker 3: be some bad seeds and bad experiences that come up,
Speaker 3: But for the most part, it was just a really fun,
Speaker 3: cute way to meet people. It was just like a
Speaker 3: you know, it's been described as kind of an online
Speaker 3: sorority in a way.
Speaker 4: Totally. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I felt like it was a lot of like cool
Speaker 2: girls who were in it, and I you know, wanted
Speaker 2: to be a part of it. Like, yes, it's it's community.
Speaker 2: But also like you kind of could see who the
Speaker 2: like top girls in the group were, and I'm remember
Speaker 2: there being just this like sort of aura of cool
Speaker 2: around them, like, oh, like, how do you hang out
Speaker 2: with the top? You know, the girls at the top.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there definitely were like there were rankings for sure,
Speaker 3: like hierarchy, and there's definitely like a totem pole type
Speaker 3: thing going on, and you could absolutely tell who which
Speaker 3: ones were the popular girls. It's basically just high school, okay, Yeah,
Speaker 3: it was like a big giant high school. I would
Speaker 3: say that G and O Girls Night Out was the
Speaker 3: high school and then the other group, which I'm sure
Speaker 3: we'll get to, was like the sorority.
Speaker 2: That's a good analogy. So where were you personally at
Speaker 2: the time when you joined this group, were you knew
Speaker 2: to La, Like, what was what was going on in
Speaker 2: your life.
Speaker 3: I had lived in La for I want to say,
Speaker 3: like four or five years by the time I discovered
Speaker 3: this group, and I think I just was added. I
Speaker 3: don't remember trying to join it or whatever. A mutual
Speaker 3: friend or something in the group just added me. I
Speaker 3: think that, you know, people wanted the group to grow.
Speaker 3: The admin of the group wanted the group to grow,
Speaker 3: so I think she had instructed like, oh, I had
Speaker 3: like five to ten of your girlfriends, like, let's make
Speaker 3: this group bigger. We can get so much done. So
Speaker 3: I just one day woke up and logged in a
Speaker 3: Facebook and I was just like in this group, and
Speaker 3: I remember like, what is this? I like the words
Speaker 3: girls and it out that's a cute, clever name. And
Speaker 3: I was just clicking around and all the threads were
Speaker 3: very juicy or very informative. Yeah, it appealed to me
Speaker 3: right away, just because you know, at the time, I
Speaker 3: worked forty sixty hours a week, I wasn't really I
Speaker 3: didn't have a ton of time to go out. So
Speaker 3: this group was great because it just had things to
Speaker 3: go to. Told you when and where to go, what
Speaker 3: to wear, how to dress, like time to show up,
Speaker 3: and it was just very structured and organized and sweet
Speaker 3: and friendly and fun and yeah at the time where
Speaker 3: I just didn't have a ton of time to make
Speaker 3: new friends.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and for our gen Z listeners at this time,
Speaker 2: So like my experience of this, I had been in
Speaker 2: an industry in LA where women really had not been
Speaker 2: connected to each other and it was really like competitive
Speaker 2: all the time. And then this era of Facebook groups
Speaker 2: begins and suddenly I'm like in g and O, but
Speaker 2: I'm men also a Facebook group for women in comedy
Speaker 2: if I was an admin of a group for women
Speaker 2: in entertainment in general, and there was all this like
Speaker 2: women connection happening, and it felt kind of revolutionary at
Speaker 2: the time because you really didn't have a way to
Speaker 2: do that in Los Angeles before, and everyone felt pitted
Speaker 2: against each other. And it was kind of the first
Speaker 2: time all of these groups, you know, it felt like
Speaker 2: real community of women and Facebook was not yet uncool,
Speaker 2: so everybody was on there.
Speaker 3: It is so uncool now, it's like an abandoned theme park.
Speaker 1: But they would like, I remember this era of female
Speaker 1: Facebook groups where they and even this would happen in
Speaker 1: girls I now where they would like post a picture
Speaker 1: of a guy and be like beware of this guy,
Speaker 1: and it was or like this happened with this student.
Speaker 4: It could be like a kind.
Speaker 1: Of powerful man that had I'd really been affecting a
Speaker 1: lot of women, and you would be like, like, I mean,
Speaker 1: I remember I was dating a guy that this group
Speaker 1: kind of outed and was like he's not a good dude,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, I guess we
Speaker 1: have to break up down.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, it's very wild.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was in a way of promoting safety because
Speaker 2: we hadn't been talking to each other before.
Speaker 3: Exactly, and there was no way to you know, if
Speaker 3: you want to warn the masses about a guy, there's
Speaker 3: no real quote unquote normal way to warn the masses
Speaker 3: about don't date this guy, unless it's like you're printing
Speaker 3: out photos and posting him on you know, public places
Speaker 3: or whatever. Like one way to just kind of like
Speaker 3: just post a pic and like write the thing and
Speaker 3: move on with your day. You can't like send that
Speaker 3: out to the masses be a text message, like right,
Speaker 3: like a crazy person.
Speaker 1: And it's all sandwiched between like this is the coolest
Speaker 1: way to do your hair right now.
Speaker 4: So you're like learning about.
Speaker 1: Hair an event, a dude you shouldn't date, and you're
Speaker 1: just like, damn, I have like friends.
Speaker 4: I remember.
Speaker 1: I also just signed into Facebook one day and was
Speaker 1: in it. I don't know who invited me. I don't know,
Speaker 1: ye how, and I started like inviting all of my
Speaker 1: friends because I was just like, we all gotta we
Speaker 1: all gotta be in here, like we gotta do this.
Speaker 3: Shit jobless and stuff too, job blessing. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I had worked in so many sectors and every
Speaker 1: girl I really liked that I worked with who I
Speaker 1: thought was cool. They were all in here from every
Speaker 1: walk of life, and I was like, what the hell,
Speaker 1: Like this group just collected my personal favorite people from
Speaker 1: every here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, put them in one place, and now they're telling
Speaker 4: me what to buy.
Speaker 2: I was gonna say. And then there was also gno housing,
Speaker 2: gno jobs. There were all of these other groups that
Speaker 2: again were like we all need something, let's come together
Speaker 2: and like figure it out in a group. And it
Speaker 2: was meeting all these very specific needs for women only
Speaker 2: generally in Los Angeles. Sorry, go on, yeah, oh, I.
Speaker 3: Was gonna say basically the same thing. There were offshoots
Speaker 3: of the group that kind of kept spreading and growing
Speaker 3: like a little like different branches of the group, and
Speaker 3: then the culty part of it began. If I'm allowed
Speaker 3: to transition to that project was please Apparently there was
Speaker 3: a smaller version of G you know, called Girls' Night In,
Speaker 3: and that was actually the underground, sweet sweet candy of
Speaker 3: groups like it was maybe had eight hundred to twelve
Speaker 3: hundred girls only out of the twenty thousands exclusive very
Speaker 3: and to the gen Z back in the day when
Speaker 3: Facebook was the coolest, it was like being in the
Speaker 3: best coolest group chat. I don't even know how to
Speaker 3: describe what gen Z would do and like.
Speaker 4: I would try to think, but just like a I don't.
Speaker 3: Know, it's gen Z on discord or something.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 3: But yeah, there was a small version of the group
Speaker 3: that was, you know, out of twenty thousand, there was
Speaker 3: you know one that and girls. And you noticed in
Speaker 3: this group it was all the women we were talking
Speaker 3: about earlier, all the top coolest popular ones. And then
Speaker 3: one day I just went I didn't know about the group.
Speaker 3: I just was in it, just like I was in
Speaker 3: G and L. And then you have to have people
Speaker 3: vouch for you and be like, oh, can we invite
Speaker 3: her in? She'd be good. And you just like wake
Speaker 3: up one day and you're like, and you hear rumors
Speaker 3: like G and I, there's a G and I, but
Speaker 3: it's just like my club. You allowed to talk about it,
Speaker 3: that's made up. Well, I leaked people like, oh, that's
Speaker 3: a rumor, there isn't one, And that was me and Lola.
Speaker 4: We were like, that's a rumor. We would totally be
Speaker 4: in it if there was one. Cool.
Speaker 2: But I feel like I feel like I remember seeing
Speaker 2: the group, Like I can't remember if I was in
Speaker 2: it and someone and then I got kicked out, But like,
Speaker 2: I feel like I saw the words girls night In.
Speaker 2: But I totally could have made that up because it
Speaker 2: totally could have been other people posting about it and
Speaker 2: me just saying that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, my roommate, your roommate, wasn't it. A lot of
Speaker 3: my friends changed the name of it a lot too,
Speaker 3: so it would be it originally started as Girls' Night In,
Speaker 3: but then it turned into like they would rename it
Speaker 3: to inside jokes, which made it even more like, oh
Speaker 3: you would never know, like like they named it coconut
Speaker 3: oil friendship group for a while.
Speaker 2: Oh wow.
Speaker 3: And then if there was like a popular funny thread,
Speaker 3: they would change the group name to that it became
Speaker 3: like warm fluffy towels was the name of it.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 3: It's like they would change it so that you know
Speaker 3: people were not lying. There is no girls night in.
Speaker 1: Let's take a moment to talk about the admin of this.
Speaker 1: Vivian is what we shall call her, Let's call.
Speaker 3: Her Vivian Vivian.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, Lola, you wrote down some interesting things about
Speaker 1: what you initially thought of her, which was what we
Speaker 1: all thought of her?
Speaker 4: Will you say some of them?
Speaker 2: Yeah? I so we were Facebook friends. I don't think
Speaker 2: I ever actually met her. I think I just was
Speaker 2: generally aware of her presence in these groups, and I
Speaker 2: would see her posts, and I specifically remember her flaunting
Speaker 2: her status as a social justice warrior, which is not
Speaker 2: a term that I really use, but I feel like
Speaker 2: she used it like as the badge of honor. I
Speaker 2: got this sense from her post that like she kind
Speaker 2: of was operating as this like soldier of morality who
Speaker 2: knew exactly what you were and were not supposed to do,
Speaker 2: and what was woke and what wasn't and what was
Speaker 2: cancelable and she was ready to cancel you. Like that's
Speaker 2: the general impression that I got of her. And at
Speaker 2: the time I was like, oh my gosh, I need
Speaker 2: to like stay up on what language I'm supposed to
Speaker 2: use or not use, because like, you know, Vivian's gonna
Speaker 2: keep me in check if not, and like, and that's
Speaker 2: something I would.
Speaker 3: Be scared of her too, hate me, and you would
Speaker 3: like be so hungry for her to be your favorite,
Speaker 3: so you could be safe if you did mess up.
Speaker 2: Like and by the way, like I I care like
Speaker 2: that stuff that's been very always been very important to
Speaker 2: me and in that era, very important to me. But
Speaker 2: it was like another level, like I was attending social
Speaker 2: justice groups and stuff like that, but it was another
Speaker 2: level of like like hypervigilance almost about who was bad
Speaker 2: and who was good, and like at the turn of
Speaker 2: a dime, it seemed like you could be deemed bad,
Speaker 2: so you kind of had to stand your toes. And
Speaker 2: this is my impression just like generally as a Facebook friend,
Speaker 2: like not in the inner circle in any way.
Speaker 1: Pretty accurate, and like the conversations wouldn't like sometimes it
Speaker 1: would just be a girl that you're like, WHOA, don't
Speaker 1: say that, and everybody would kind of attack her, you know,
Speaker 1: and that would be one thing. But then I remember
Speaker 1: one girl was like, put my hair in pigtails today,
Speaker 1: and everybody was like that's cultural appropriation, like braids aren't fine,
Speaker 1: and I was like whoa.
Speaker 3: Like that was sort of the flavor of the group
Speaker 3: where everything was under the guise of like teaching someone
Speaker 3: in learning and growing and being better and the right
Speaker 3: correct way to be woke and how to move forward
Speaker 3: and be better. It was all under that, but there
Speaker 3: was such a nasty, venomous mean girl flavor tossed in.
Speaker 3: I don't really know how to describe it, like, oh, well,
Speaker 3: like I'm being mean to you because like this is
Speaker 3: helping you, and you know, if it weren't be us
Speaker 3: being mean, if it weren't me being like saying this,
Speaker 3: then someone else is going to do it in a
Speaker 3: way worse way, or like you're you almost got brainwashed
Speaker 3: into thinking you were lucky that that's how you were learning.
Speaker 3: Stuff is being dragged like this is a lesson, Like
Speaker 3: you should be grateful that this is how you're learning
Speaker 3: with a bunch of women rather than you know, some
Speaker 3: other way that's worse. I don't know, like and.
Speaker 2: I will, yeah, And I just want to clarify, like
Speaker 2: I think I speak for all of us when I say, like,
Speaker 2: we all think over cultural appropriation and anything like reducing
Speaker 2: a race or ethnicity to a costume like that stuff
Speaker 2: is generally not good. We don't know that, you know,
Speaker 2: racism is bad. None of us want to engage in
Speaker 2: this stuff, but it can be very you know, at
Speaker 2: that time, in particular, the vigilance was so high that
Speaker 2: it was hard to know like what was okay and
Speaker 2: what was and it was all so so new, you know,
Speaker 2: and Vivian sort of deemed herself as the arbiter of
Speaker 2: what was and was not acceptable. And by the way,
Speaker 2: Vivian was half Asian, but you know, she's not a
Speaker 2: black woman. She was being the arbiter of rules for
Speaker 2: ethnicities and raceist that she is not. Just to clarify
Speaker 2: what that situation was.
Speaker 4: I was too scared to ever post because she was
Speaker 4: always mad. I was just there to watch.
Speaker 1: People get yelled at, essentially, or to see people's makeup
Speaker 1: ideas and stuff like that. But Nora, were you posting
Speaker 1: a lot and were you getting like hard feedback and
Speaker 1: comments that were kind of schooling you a lot.
Speaker 4: Was that something that was happening.
Speaker 3: So I, you know, in the beginning, we're all a
Speaker 3: little too scared to post. And then as you see
Speaker 3: the group grow, as you see how everyone's acting, and
Speaker 3: when you see who's cool and popular, you know, I
Speaker 3: would post and just be funny, Like I would just
Speaker 3: post funny stuff because everyone liked that, and then I
Speaker 3: started growing in popularity in the group because that was
Speaker 3: the funny one. But I do remember being a little
Speaker 3: too afraid to comment on the serious ones like would
Speaker 3: I would post my own, but I wouldn't chime in
Speaker 3: very much on the other ones, like being a fly
Speaker 3: on the wall was probably your safest way in that
Speaker 3: and it could be very entertaining. And I did learn
Speaker 3: a lot, like I did learn. I you know, before
Speaker 3: those groups, wasn't I wasn't even thinking about box braids.
Speaker 3: I've never gotten them, but I didn't know until those groups,
Speaker 3: like oh, I guess, yeah, that would be offensive probably
Speaker 3: to a black person, if a white girl wants to
Speaker 3: wear that as a costume. And you know, there would
Speaker 3: be really great conversations and threads in there where you
Speaker 3: would learn a lot and learn different perspectives. So I did.
Speaker 3: There was so much value in that group because I
Speaker 3: did learn a lot, Because even though the group itself
Speaker 3: could be toxic, there were some really good people in
Speaker 3: there in good competition, which is what keeps you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 3: All bad right, so for sure.
Speaker 2: I mean that's the thing. It's like, the community aspect
Speaker 2: is valuable, and getting different perspectives is valuable. What sort
Speaker 2: of starts to turn it is when the leader, when
Speaker 2: it becomes more about her his or her particular whims
Speaker 2: and less about connecting with each other and learning and
Speaker 2: growing together.
Speaker 3: And then the group got even more exciting because there
Speaker 3: were a few I don't want to say celebrities, but
Speaker 3: I swear Tila Tequila was in that group. Oh yes,
Speaker 3: and I think Grage left or got kicked out or something.
Speaker 2: That up.
Speaker 4: Honestly, there were a few.
Speaker 3: Celebrities sort of sprinkled in, you know, CD list. I
Speaker 3: hate to rank people like that, but you.
Speaker 4: Know what I mean, celebrity adjacent.
Speaker 3: Angelina Jolie wasn't in there really too.
Speaker 2: Internet celebrities were in there, and again for gen Z listeners,
Speaker 2: Tuila Tequila was huge on my Space and then had
Speaker 2: a resurgence of fame like ten years later ish with
Speaker 2: her reality show and stuff, and then kind of disappeared.
Speaker 3: Like Tricia Petis or whatever.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh my god, exactly exactly like Tricia Paitis. I
Speaker 2: feel like, uh and I remember seeing girls who were like, yeah,
Speaker 2: like my Space famous had I known in that time,
Speaker 2: or like we're big fashion bloggers you know, like Internet
Speaker 2: like micro Internet famous people who were just it seemed cool.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was the first wave of influencers, you know,
Speaker 3: when people were famous on Instagram. That was the first
Speaker 3: that was kind of around the same time. Yeah, one
Speaker 3: hundred thousand followers, so crazy, Yeah, I did. It did
Speaker 3: feel like my Space celebrity adjacent.
Speaker 4: In my Space?
Speaker 1: What was the topics being discussed?
Speaker 3: Girl Snagan was a little bit more like a giant sleepover,
Speaker 3: like a slumber party. It was like slumber party vibes,
Speaker 3: where okay, secrets, it's a small group, so you feel
Speaker 3: a little bit more safe to be vulnerable. We were
Speaker 3: definitely posting different things in there, just juicier pictures of ourselves.
Speaker 3: It definitely felt like a safe space to express yourself
Speaker 3: as a woman right first. You know, it's kind of
Speaker 3: like a free for all, like it was just anyone.
Speaker 3: You don't know who's in there, like your cousin could
Speaker 3: accidentally be in there, and right.
Speaker 1: Because I hear secrets and I think collateral, you know,
Speaker 1: at this point.
Speaker 3: In a way just a good way to bring up
Speaker 3: you know, it would and things happen slowly in there.
Speaker 3: Things get like normalized very slowly, so that you're not like,
Speaker 3: oh Jesus, this is what goes on in here. It
Speaker 3: would be like, you know, one member posting like, oh
Speaker 3: I just got this like laningerie set, like and all
Speaker 3: of us would be like show us, like show us,
Speaker 3: and she's like, okay, I gotta post some spicy photos.
Speaker 3: And then it would be like it would escalate to
Speaker 3: women just fully posting nudes. That's before you can get
Speaker 3: what's what it's called zucked, before you can get like
Speaker 3: flagged and banned for nudes on Facebook. So many many
Speaker 3: members I want to say, at least seventy percent posted
Speaker 3: nudes in there, and again it was all right away.
Speaker 3: It would just like gradual and then it seemed normal, like, oh,
Speaker 3: like I feel safe here. This kind of is fun
Speaker 3: to you know, feel sexy and you know, get the
Speaker 3: ego boost in a safe space from women rather than
Speaker 3: for the male gaze or however people like to say. So,
Speaker 3: you know, I definitely posted lingerie kind of cute sexy
Speaker 3: photos because it just, you know, it feels good to
Speaker 3: feel good, and then it feels good to have that support.
Speaker 3: But then after a while, it's like, why are we
Speaker 3: all taking nudes and posting them in not a public
Speaker 3: forum but like online essentially.
Speaker 2: A thousand people a lot of people, to you know,
Speaker 2: that is like it's not like the whole world, but
Speaker 2: it is like relatively public, and I do understand the
Speaker 2: instinct as well. I'd be sending my friends, yeah, the
Speaker 2: hot pigs of myself, you know, yeah.
Speaker 1: Lola, Lola sends me pictures of her butthole like every
Speaker 1: other day, every okay, So yeah, So I mean it's
Speaker 1: a thousand people, sure, but it's a thousand people who've
Speaker 1: all been vetted. I'm assuming that this is the height
Speaker 1: of kind of the body positivity movement, So it's I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a lot of like we all accept our bodies.
Speaker 1: That was what was happening in Girls Night Out, Like
Speaker 1: I would see a lot of girls posting their lingerie
Speaker 1: pictures who weren't your typical people that would be doing that,
Speaker 1: and we would all be like and I would feel
Speaker 1: the same way, like yes, you go like this is
Speaker 1: amazing whole now era being ushered in, but yeah, I
Speaker 1: can totally see it kind of being normalized in Girls
Speaker 1: Side Out, and then you move over to girls night
Speaker 1: in end it being uh just.
Speaker 4: Completely more safe.
Speaker 1: And once you kind of start sharing those kind of
Speaker 1: pictures with people, even unconsciously, you're just closer and I
Speaker 1: want to yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there's that bond, that vulnerable, yeah bond that you have.
Speaker 3: And speaking of that, it's reminding me also this there's
Speaker 3: here's there's nothing wrong with doing this because it's consensual,
Speaker 3: and the girls who did it wanted to. And I remember, okay,
Speaker 3: I got to start from the beginning. It's crazy. So
Speaker 3: one of the girls that was her boyfriend's at the
Speaker 3: times birthday and she's like, it's my boyfriend's birthday. Can
Speaker 3: everyone in the group send him a sexy pick oh
Speaker 3: or in his phone with like butts and boobs for
Speaker 3: his birthday? And I remember being like, what, that's crazy,
Speaker 3: but so many of the members did, and they posted
Speaker 3: screenshots off his reaction and everyone's like pumping each other up.
Speaker 3: So you're watching these people get attention and accolades sort
Speaker 3: of for having done this, and one of the members
Speaker 3: was one of like the more popular ones, and so
Speaker 3: you're like, oh, I kind of want to make her happy,
Speaker 3: like maybe I'll just like son a leavage pick to
Speaker 3: her boyfriend, which like, on the outside, that sounds crazy,
Speaker 3: that sounds crazy, But then it would happen the next
Speaker 3: week for someone else's boyfriend, and then again and again,
Speaker 3: and yeah it's a week, and then it just was
Speaker 3: normal to do to the point where at the time
Speaker 3: my partner's birthday came around and I had them do
Speaker 3: it for him.
Speaker 4: Lucky.
Speaker 3: Wow, it's very lucky.
Speaker 4: But unfortunate for y'all.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's and I mean it's fine because we
Speaker 3: were all at the time like hey, like I know
Speaker 3: what I'm doing whatever. But we're also again kind of
Speaker 3: under the impression that this is normal and you should
Speaker 3: do it. So you're like, oh, like I'm and you know,
Speaker 3: there's the the incentive of like, well, I want to
Speaker 3: be one of the cool ones. I'm not like other
Speaker 3: girls like oh yeah ones, And so like here I'm
Speaker 3: sending I would not today, not that there's anything wrong
Speaker 3: with that. Personally, I would not today send a booty
Speaker 3: pick to a friend's boyfriend for.
Speaker 1: His And I'm so jealous if the girls were like
Speaker 1: sending that to my boyfriend, if I asked them to
Speaker 1: do that, I would like drop kick his phone out
Speaker 1: the window and be like never mind.
Speaker 3: From the outside, it's very not normal.
Speaker 2: I mean, did you feel conflicted about it at the time,
Speaker 2: Like did you have any like secret like feelings of
Speaker 2: jealousy that you were suppressing, Like what did you feel
Speaker 2: about that?
Speaker 3: I so badly wanted to be cool in the group
Speaker 3: that I was like, yeah, this is cool. Like you're
Speaker 3: just you're kind of brainwashed, like like you are in
Speaker 3: a cult where you are sort of trained to want
Speaker 3: these things to happen. You're you know, molded to do
Speaker 3: those things, to let them in too, even if it
Speaker 3: is uncomfortable. You're like, oh, but no, I'm so much
Speaker 3: more body positive, sex positive.
Speaker 4: Probably it feels like growth. It was all framed as growth.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I was like, oh god, I
Speaker 3: was such a prude before, Like this is cool, like
Speaker 3: sexually free and don't be insecure about your boyfriend and
Speaker 3: your relationship. Like if I'm secure, my boyfriend's awesome. Then
Speaker 3: the more this happens and the more normal we are,
Speaker 3: the cooler we are. Like, yeah, today, I would not
Speaker 3: do it. I'm not judging people who sent those pictures
Speaker 3: or because I did. I mean, it was like a
Speaker 3: butt peg from whatever. It was definitely recycled. I did
Speaker 3: not take a new one. Every girl knows what a
Speaker 3: recycled nude is, and it wasn't nude. It was just like,
Speaker 3: you know, I probably took it drunk or something for
Speaker 3: my partner at the time, just recycled it. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it just was. It felt normal, it felt cool. It
Speaker 3: was just the thing you did. And like, looking back,
Speaker 3: that is kind of very insane to the person I
Speaker 3: am today, I would not do that. S wouldn't do that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you're being very diplomatic about it, which
Speaker 2: is like it's good, Like, yes, we should be understanding
Speaker 2: of whatever. Everyone has different ideas of what they're comfortable with.
Speaker 2: But I think the point is that it's not something
Speaker 2: that you would be aligned with you typically, right, It's
Speaker 2: not something it was going against your natural sort of
Speaker 2: instincts and what you felt in your life was normal behavior.
Speaker 2: Because this group had sort of moved your boundaries and
Speaker 2: like moved your sense of normal over here from where
Speaker 2: you were initially, right exactly? And did that escalate? Like
Speaker 2: how did that evolve?
Speaker 3: I mean, I think people just started doing it more often,
Speaker 3: posting nudes of themselves. I didn't, but there were threads
Speaker 3: and threads and threads of inappropriate sexual pictures, either sometimes
Speaker 3: with people and their partners or just themselves. And again,
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with being sexual. There's nothing wrong with
Speaker 3: taking pictures with your partner, there's nothing wrong with sharing
Speaker 3: those with the people that you're comfortable with. But at
Speaker 3: the end of the day, do we know every thousand
Speaker 3: people in here? Do we know them closely? But it
Speaker 3: kind of felt that way because again it was like
Speaker 3: summer party vibes, Like you just felt like he he,
Speaker 3: Like you know, what stays here in the group just
Speaker 3: stays here forever. But you forget. People can take a
Speaker 3: screenshot and you forget. The next week someone might make
Speaker 3: you really mad, or you might make someone mad, and
Speaker 3: now they just happen.
Speaker 4: Vivian is not chill.
Speaker 2: What's her role in all of this at that stage?
Speaker 3: Givian has a background in the adult entertainment industry. She
Speaker 3: used to run the site called God's Girls, which I
Speaker 3: don't know if you're familiar, but if not, it is.
Speaker 3: It was a spicy website, as I say, that was
Speaker 3: heavily similar to Suicide Girls, which is like tattoos, piercings,
Speaker 3: basically golf porn essentially. So she ran that, and the
Speaker 3: lore is that her dad back of the day was
Speaker 3: a porn producer as well, so she comes from a
Speaker 3: background and you know, family wise and then also career
Speaker 3: wise in the porn industry. So then she also had
Speaker 3: that website called Crushy, which was before Gano, and it
Speaker 3: was kind of like a social media MySpace type thing,
Speaker 3: almost kind of like friends to remember that were aging ourselves.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I vaguely remember this, but I don't
Speaker 2: remember what the premise was.
Speaker 3: And crush she was like, I can't quite remember. It
Speaker 3: stayed anonymous until you decided not to be or something.
Speaker 3: I was on there for a second and apparently they
Speaker 3: had sort of like group chat video things or something
Speaker 3: which I was not a part of. I didn't use
Speaker 3: it very often just because I was like, not another website.
Speaker 3: I don't want to have another thing in my life.
Speaker 3: I just didn't have time for it, but Krushy I
Speaker 3: think did have. I want to say there was a
Speaker 3: sexual aspect to it as well, where a lot of
Speaker 3: the members were either in the porn industry or something.
Speaker 1: There was something I remember people saying that they were
Speaker 1: like groomed from when they were underage to be a
Speaker 1: part of this.
Speaker 3: There were girls on God's Girls that came out after
Speaker 3: everything went to shambles, and there were Reddit threads that
Speaker 3: kind of claimed that Vivian had hand picked them for
Speaker 3: God's Girls even though they were underage, and sort of
Speaker 3: pressure them like it's fine, it's fine, You're safe, it's
Speaker 3: all good. No needs No. Those are just the things
Speaker 3: that I've read. I don't know these women. I was
Speaker 3: not involved in God's Girls at all, but I did
Speaker 3: read some places in here, some places that there was
Speaker 3: some underage grooming going on for the women and girls
Speaker 3: who were on God's Girls.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's an allegation that has been made.
Speaker 3: Yes, I have read about that being a thing. I
Speaker 3: don't know if it's true or not. I don't know
Speaker 3: any of the women involved, so, but yes, that is
Speaker 3: that has circulated before.
Speaker 1: And also allegedly Crushy I remember reading somewhere a girl
Speaker 1: saying that it was a lot of younger women with older,
Speaker 1: richer men, almost like a sugar daddy site. But it
Speaker 1: wasn't framed that way. It was like friendship, and you
Speaker 1: were like, why am I friends with? Why is there
Speaker 1: all these older powerful men and all these younger women whatever,
Speaker 1: They're interesting, They're a rock star there or whatever, And
Speaker 1: so that site was also suspect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, in terms of the dynamics in the group, what
Speaker 2: was Vivian's role at that point, Like, was she encouraging
Speaker 2: this kind of behavior? Was she using the existence of
Speaker 2: these it is against anyone, like what was starting to
Speaker 2: feel toxic about it?
Speaker 3: Vivian was supportive of us expressing ourselves and posting those things.
Speaker 3: We were never ashamed or anything. I do know that
Speaker 3: other members of the group were not safe, because again,
Speaker 3: you take a thousand people. You can have a thousand
Speaker 3: people in a room that might be talk. There's a
Speaker 3: thousand people in a group and yeah, one or two
Speaker 3: opposite to drag you, and you know, similar to g Ando,
Speaker 3: like if you say one wrong thing, if you do
Speaker 3: something you know that people don't agree with. It's kind
Speaker 3: of the hive mentality where you get kicked out of
Speaker 3: the group, and when people get kicked out of the group,
Speaker 3: they who knows if they screenshot all these things and
Speaker 3: have all these photos and posts and secrets and confessions
Speaker 3: against you. Like it was one big diary for all
Speaker 3: of us and that we all shared and wrote in
Speaker 3: kind of like the what is it the burn book,
Speaker 3: I mean girls thing, So you just have to be
Speaker 3: really careful. But for the most part, Vivian was more
Speaker 3: like the mom of the group, the leader, Like definitely
Speaker 3: she was the leader of the group and the head admin,
Speaker 3: which sounds like so dorky. She also had admin, but
Speaker 3: she was like the mother of the group, and you know,
Speaker 3: if you thought something was off, but she would like
Speaker 3: be like no, like this is hard, I'm doing it.
Speaker 3: But yeah, yeah, totally, like I don't want to get
Speaker 3: kicked out of the group, Like I don't want to
Speaker 3: lose these friends. I also don't want all these people
Speaker 3: against me, because it was just so culty almost that
Speaker 3: if you're out and you get excommunicated, you're the enemy
Speaker 3: and you're evil and you're bad, and it's just a
Speaker 3: scary place to be. After having written all that and
Speaker 3: posted all that, and shared those photos and sent them
Speaker 3: to people's boyfriends, you know.
Speaker 2: And were people excommunicated and if so, like what for?
Speaker 3: I can't remember exact details, but it would be something
Speaker 3: as small as we're going to get box braids done
Speaker 3: and not immediately being like, oh my god, you're right,
Speaker 3: I'm so sorry, Like Vivian, you're the one who knows all,
Speaker 3: like if you didn't just worship her for any reason,
Speaker 3: and again, hive mentality, like we would know maybe there's
Speaker 3: something off about that, but when everyone's doing it, when
Speaker 3: everyone's thinking it, you're in this group, and the addiction
Speaker 3: to wanting to be included and wanting that community and
Speaker 3: feeling so special in the weird you know, exclusivity of
Speaker 3: oh that's that group doesn't exist. Like you were just
Speaker 3: part of this big, powerful secret in this big powerful
Speaker 3: town with you know, members of members who are married
Speaker 3: to big rock stars and celebrities, and some of the
Speaker 3: people in the group were also and are also celebrities.
Speaker 3: So like you're in this secret, powerful group. And when
Speaker 3: you're kicked out. I've seen people get kicked out or
Speaker 3: moved in the way they get dragged and the way
Speaker 3: they would just talk so much shit is like awful,
Speaker 3: and like, I never want that to be me to
Speaker 3: the point where people would probably still still get dragged
Speaker 3: because of those threats because you just.
Speaker 2: Like thought it and like, would it be something overtly
Speaker 2: racist that would get them kicked out? Because like, okay,
Speaker 2: fair if you're being racist in a group, doesn't but
Speaker 2: like or like what kind of stuff would it be?
Speaker 3: Like it would be someone sticking up for themselves for once.
Speaker 3: I think it was just people trying to branch off
Speaker 3: and like, no, actually, that's that's weird to do. Like
Speaker 3: I'm don't I don't want to send your boyfriend that,
Speaker 3: or I don't want people to send my boyfriend anything,
Speaker 3: or I you shouldn't have you shouldn't have posted a
Speaker 3: full new girl what you're doing. And I'm like, oh see,
Speaker 3: you think whatever, Like it would be anyone who's basically
Speaker 3: thinking for themselves because the racist people didn't make it
Speaker 3: into that group. Anyone who got it was messy, like
Speaker 3: you had to be vouched for by I think remembers
Speaker 3: or something, and everyone had to vote yes for you
Speaker 3: to get in. So for the most part, many of
Speaker 3: the women in the group are awesome and were great
Speaker 3: and had a lot to offer and are still some
Speaker 3: of my closest friends. Some of them aren't, and some
Speaker 3: of them did turn out to be weird or not nice.
Speaker 3: I'll just say, but yeah, when people got kicked out,
Speaker 3: it would be them just like enough of the shit,
Speaker 3: Like I don't I don't have to agree with this,
Speaker 3: I don't have to whatever, like just thinking differently, or
Speaker 3: if you're not voting for Bernie Sanders, like you're out,
Speaker 3: like you know, if you're like I don't think I'm
Speaker 3: I think I'm just not going to vote this election,
Speaker 3: or even just saying like I thought about what if
Speaker 3: I didn't vote the selection, she'd be like get out
Speaker 3: of our group. Like you can just say that maybe
Speaker 3: you're thinking about it. It would be something like that, or
Speaker 3: so I cannot in resist. I mean in that moment,
Speaker 3: you know, you would just do something that was against
Speaker 3: if you bought a dog and didn't adopt it or something,
Speaker 3: or even asked like hey, like I'm trying to get
Speaker 3: a specific breed for my allergy and my ESA whatever
Speaker 3: things that I need. If you you know, and I
Speaker 3: think that people should adopt I don't think you should
Speaker 3: shop for dogs. But there are circumstances where Okay, what
Speaker 3: am I gonna do is save all the dogs in
Speaker 3: the world by telling this one person but something something
Speaker 3: as small as as that in comparison to being racist,
Speaker 3: like where can I get this dog? Adopting it? And
Speaker 3: it's like, oh my god, vi had designer dogs that
Speaker 3: she thought.
Speaker 2: Really, yes, of course she did, of course she did.
Speaker 4: That is so funny adoptant shop.
Speaker 1: But that yeah, if somebody needs an hour job, yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: like come on.
Speaker 2: So basically, so basically, Vivian has created this like moral
Speaker 2: code that she herself does not adhere to. But she's
Speaker 2: created like a code of how you must live your life,
Speaker 2: and not just like how you must communicate, but how
Speaker 2: you must literally live your life. And anyone who expresses
Speaker 2: any variation of her idea of that right, because she's
Speaker 2: the one upsetting this standard and deciding who gets kicked out,
Speaker 2: or there are other people as well.
Speaker 3: It was basically her Okay.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so that's Caulds effect.
Speaker 3: Yeah you don't like that, like if she does it,
Speaker 3: if she does, like someone, you like that, it's looking back,
Speaker 3: it's like, that's crazy.
Speaker 2: It's a particularly difficult one to navigate because like ostensibly,
Speaker 2: what she's promoting is like justice and equality and uh sex,
Speaker 2: body positivity, loving yourself, helping dogs. Like ostensibly, like on
Speaker 2: the surface, the thing that she is purporting to be
Speaker 2: promoting are these things that we all want, Like we
Speaker 2: all want want I mean not all of us, but
Speaker 2: like I think most of the people in the group
Speaker 2: want a world that looks like that where we're but
Speaker 2: also we're humans and we're doing our best, and like
Speaker 2: sometimes there might need to be a reason to differ
Speaker 2: from Vivian's particular ideas about what that looks like.
Speaker 3: It's a lot. I mean, it's a lot. It's you know,
Speaker 3: like I explained before the appeal was you know, it's
Speaker 3: under the guise of women empowerment and learning and growth
Speaker 3: and mutual aid and helping the community. You know, one
Speaker 3: of the members would help with Christmas presents for an
Speaker 3: unhoused mother with two kids, and we would all donate money.
Speaker 3: And I heard that Vivian kept part of that money,
Speaker 3: and that the member found that out. She moved it
Speaker 3: to an Amazon wish list so that that couldn't happen.
Speaker 2: But I do remember, I do remember hearing that rumor
Speaker 2: as well. I remember hearing rumors about all of the
Speaker 2: like good deeds quote unquote that Vivian had been doing
Speaker 2: that were actually just serving Vivian yep. And again this
Speaker 2: is sort of a hallmark of a cult leader like figure.
Speaker 2: I also, I just was googling her, and I remember
Speaker 2: part of why, part of where I got my pression
Speaker 2: of her as being like this like s JW whatever,
Speaker 2: like but like really aggressive about it person. And it
Speaker 2: was the lift incident.
Speaker 3: Oh yes, I remember that. I remember that happening in
Speaker 3: real time, Like, wait.
Speaker 4: Okay, what are you all talking about?
Speaker 2: You do you want to tell it? You can, just
Speaker 2: so you can, Okay, Okay. So Vivian took a lift,
Speaker 2: uh and noticed that her driver had a Hula girl
Speaker 2: bobblehead on the dash. She starts taking a video of her,
Speaker 2: like telling this man that he's being racist. She threatens
Speaker 2: to put him on Gawker. She says, you will be
Speaker 2: like the next internet meme. It's going to be super funny.
Speaker 2: She says, yeah, I'm sorry that you have no consideration
Speaker 2: for actual When he says she's being rude because she's
Speaker 2: basically just harassing harassing him, Yeah, I'm sorry that you
Speaker 2: have no consideration for actual Hawaiian people who don't want
Speaker 2: to be a bobblehead item in the car while you
Speaker 2: were driving for lift. And then she calls him a
Speaker 2: fucking selfish, dumbass idiot, and he kicks her out of
Speaker 2: the car and says, here's a sidewalk, have a wonderful night.
Speaker 2: She was aggressively harassing this man, like whatever you think
Speaker 2: about you, Yeah.
Speaker 3: She was whatever, definitely under the ampence.
Speaker 2: Whatever you think about who the girl bobblehead like, I
Speaker 2: understand why that could be a problematic thing to have.
Speaker 2: Her approach was insane, and.
Speaker 3: It turned out I think I want to say that
Speaker 3: that lift driver was from Hawaii something you don't know
Speaker 3: what you were talking about, like whatever, And she just
Speaker 3: was trying to be very performative. Saw that as an
Speaker 3: opportunity to do that, thought it would be a good
Speaker 3: idea to record it, posted it right as it happened
Speaker 3: because he dropped her off. I was like, I'm ending
Speaker 3: this ride, like you need to get out because she
Speaker 3: was being a little too much about it. Posted the
Speaker 3: video in a couple of places to try to She's
Speaker 3: like I'm gonna get you fired or something like that.
Speaker 3: She wanted him to lose his job over it, because
Speaker 3: he dropped her off in the middle of nowhere would
Speaker 3: turn out like it was on a sidewalk, like to
Speaker 3: get out of the car. I want to say he
Speaker 3: temporarily did lose his job, but then got it back
Speaker 3: once the other video because she posted it and immediately
Speaker 3: took it down, But the internet is forever, it doesn't matter,
Speaker 3: Like someone screen recorded it and reposted it on YouTube, and.
Speaker 4: Yeah, she immediately was like, oh, I'm the asshole.
Speaker 3: I think she was not getting the response that she wanted.
Speaker 3: She had posted it in the group and we were
Speaker 3: even kind of like this, like you maybe shouldn't have
Speaker 3: posted anywhere. And I don't know if someone screen recorded
Speaker 3: it from the group and shared it. I'm not quite
Speaker 3: sure how I got out out, but it.
Speaker 2: Did, and like right wing Twitter like seized this video
Speaker 2: and used it as evidence of why all social justice
Speaker 2: endeavors are like ridiculous and all these people are insane,
Speaker 2: you know, like yeah, it fed into this like caricature
Speaker 2: narrative of people who like actually are trying to promote
Speaker 2: social justice.
Speaker 3: And a lot of her stuff was very, like I said, performative.
Speaker 3: Some of the stuff you know, she got some things
Speaker 3: done and raised some money for some stuffs, Like a
Speaker 3: little bit of good was done, but it was definitely
Speaker 3: performative and just to be perceived as this powerful person.
Speaker 4: Was the dance party a part of her. That was
Speaker 4: the drama that.
Speaker 5: I was before Hula I think, Okay, I was the
Speaker 5: dancing man thing, which again started that didn't really involve
Speaker 5: as much.
Speaker 3: Okay, all other members of G and I who were
Speaker 3: kind of grifty about the whole thing also so we
Speaker 3: we all collectively helped find the dancing man and located
Speaker 3: him and we all.
Speaker 1: The dancing man, just for anyone who doesn't know, was
Speaker 1: a man who was dancing all by himself and it
Speaker 1: was captured in the video.
Speaker 4: Correct.
Speaker 3: Someone took a picture of overweight man dancing in a party,
Speaker 3: but he was by himself self and someone the it
Speaker 3: was on four chan or something whatever that place is.
Speaker 3: Someone posted a picture of him and goes, this guy
Speaker 3: stopped dancing because we told him he's too fat to
Speaker 3: be here. Whatever. It was just like fat shaming him
Speaker 3: and telling him like he doesn't deserve to have a
Speaker 3: good time dancing because he's fat, and it went viral
Speaker 3: on four chan and then it went viral on Facebook
Speaker 3: and people were like, we need to find this man
Speaker 3: and like throw him a dance party, which is like
Speaker 3: really sweet, and so we all collectively, you know, got
Speaker 3: together and were able to find him, and two members
Speaker 3: of the group weirdly took over financially. Who knows what
Speaker 3: happened with that money did all this stuff. One of
Speaker 3: the girls is women. Her name is Cassandra Fairbanks, which
Speaker 3: if you google her, that's a whole other episode. I
Speaker 3: don't even He's super liberal and is now like far
Speaker 3: right crazy crazy.
Speaker 2: It's like that's a conspiracy theory. She's now working for
Speaker 2: like far at conspiracy theory websites, is what the Internet says.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that's a leap. She used to be like
Speaker 3: vote for Bernie and the groups and like women's rights
Speaker 3: and trans rites and all these things, and overnight, out
Speaker 3: of nowhere, she just switched. But kind of before that happened,
Speaker 3: she was involved in the dancing man thing, and uh,
Speaker 3: they ended up throwing a party for him and it
Speaker 3: was like cute and they like ended up on the news,
Speaker 3: but then they squeezed everyone else out, and who knows
Speaker 3: what happened with all the money. That we raised. I
Speaker 3: don't know, God, I don't know, because a lot of
Speaker 3: celebrities donated stuff too, so I was like, they probably
Speaker 3: don't need our twenty dollars venol.
Speaker 4: Then yeah, I think I donated to that. So I
Speaker 4: was very invested that.
Speaker 3: All kind of went weirdly downhill. There's a lot of.
Speaker 1: That was my opening of cognitive critical thing of like,
Speaker 1: this group might not be perfect.
Speaker 2: Wait, what was your understanding of what happened, Megan? Because
Speaker 2: I missed that whole thing.
Speaker 1: That everybody was getting together to throw this man a
Speaker 1: party to dance with him, because the meme that was
Speaker 1: shared was so heartbreaking, and that it was going to
Speaker 1: be this beautiful group effort and it's the heart of Gno,
Speaker 1: We're all coming together. And then suddenly two I think
Speaker 1: it was two people were giving the interviews and kind
Speaker 1: of using it as self promotion and completely ignoring the
Speaker 1: fact that this was not a about them. It took
Speaker 1: a giant group effort to do. And people started commenting
Speaker 1: on it in girls, I know, like, this is so wrong.
Speaker 1: People are taking responsibility for something they didn't do. And
Speaker 1: now that I know Vivian wasn't involved directly with that,
Speaker 1: it makes sense of why those things were allowed to
Speaker 1: stay up, because usually she would delete things that attacked her.
Speaker 1: But that's that somehow cracked through my my cognitive dissonance,
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh damn that girls.
Speaker 3: Definitely the beginning of the end of like this is
Speaker 3: getting weird, just like you said it. Definitely, you know,
Speaker 3: your steady senses go off a little. You're like, this
Speaker 3: is like something is off about this. But that was
Speaker 3: a crazy time. And then it turned out, I want
Speaker 3: to say, that guy's from London or something. It turned
Speaker 3: out that his job was looking for him because he
Speaker 3: was in trouble for some kind of fraud. People were
Speaker 3: looking for him. So when that story came out, that
Speaker 3: came out or like this guy is a good guy
Speaker 3: just because someone you know, and who knows if that
Speaker 3: picture even I don't believe anything on the internet anymore.
Speaker 3: Who knows that if that picture was just him like
Speaker 3: putting looking down because he was like looking for his wallet,
Speaker 3: they can get that photo. And then someone just spread
Speaker 3: this whole thing. But yeah, it turned out that that
Speaker 3: guy wasn't.
Speaker 2: Even you know, wow, I mean, that is an honest
Speaker 2: mistake that that does happen all the time where like
Speaker 2: someone on the internet seems so sympathetic and then you
Speaker 2: and then you learn stuff about them. I just I'm
Speaker 2: just struck by like how I mean, I kind of
Speaker 2: already said it, but just like how hard it could
Speaker 2: be to parse because you are ostensibly doing good things,
Speaker 2: You're trying to do the right thing. And in so
Speaker 2: many of these situations where people are trying to do
Speaker 2: the right thing, I mean, so many cults start out
Speaker 2: with really wonderful intentions and ideas. You know, I always
Speaker 2: talk about the People's Temple. Jim Jones was promoting like
Speaker 2: harmony between racis and a multi racial coalition church and
Speaker 2: you know, like anti racism. So like there's there's always
Speaker 2: that like great thing that is making it seem appealing
Speaker 2: and making it hard to kind of just realize, like
Speaker 2: hard to decipher between Wait, aren't we doing something good though?
Speaker 2: And like wait, are we doing this too much?
Speaker 4: Wait?
Speaker 2: Is this just about actually promoting the leaders are Oh
Speaker 2: they're taking my money. Oh they're like they're turning us
Speaker 2: all into black and white thinkers. Like it happens gradually
Speaker 2: over time, and it's so much harder when like, ostensibly
Speaker 2: it's about doing the right thing, you.
Speaker 3: Know exactly, and like, like I said earlier, we were
Speaker 3: doing great stuff and all all the members for the
Speaker 3: most part, were awesome and still are, so you know,
Speaker 3: you're not. Everywhere you look isn't bad. It's like, oh,
Speaker 3: I love this person, Like these girls are great, and
Speaker 3: these women are awesome, and yeah, all this stuff and
Speaker 3: raising all this money and helping this unhelped woman with
Speaker 3: her kids for Christmas, and raising money for this and what.
Speaker 3: You know, as soon as money gets involved in any way,
Speaker 3: things get a little bit more weird. And the money
Speaker 3: thing just started happening a little bit more often, which
Speaker 3: was another red flag where I was like, why are
Speaker 3: we But you know, it'd be like ten dollars here,
Speaker 3: fifteen dollars here, twenty dollars here. Then looking back, I'm like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, like cent probably like three hundred like
Speaker 3: last the last like four months, which is not a
Speaker 3: lot of money, but no, it is out about like
Speaker 3: a thousand people. Gosh, I wonder how much money that is.
Speaker 2: You know? All right, right, she got.
Speaker 3: Pretty grifty about, Oh, let's do the math. There's a
Speaker 3: thousand of you. If you each send me ten dollars
Speaker 3: for to help out such and such. It could be
Speaker 3: made up. She's getting three thousand dollars or you know,
Speaker 3: thirty thousand dollars at the end of the month. After
Speaker 3: a while, it's just like, I don't know how much
Speaker 3: money from this group. The crazier part, if we're going
Speaker 3: to talk anything money, was she wanted to turn G
Speaker 3: and I, which turned into a whole company. She turned
Speaker 3: it into an LLC because she wanted to start like
Speaker 3: a marijuana business and wanted to use She changed the
Speaker 3: name this is so funny. Changed the group named Girl Cults.
Speaker 3: There was there was like inside jokes, like or like
Speaker 3: everyone thinks part cult and it's like, oh my god
Speaker 3: that we were joke.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because they have to they have to make I know,
Speaker 1: it's kind of.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: It's to like get ahead of the crowd of like whatever,
Speaker 3: and then you turn into an inside joke so that
Speaker 3: you don't take it seriously. We even had members who
Speaker 3: were pretty heavy into like the fashion design world, you know,
Speaker 3: back when left was like a thing, those kind of brands.
Speaker 3: I forget the exact brand, but one of the girls
Speaker 3: made a limited addition shirt that said I'm a member
Speaker 3: of a secret Internet cult, and like they only printed
Speaker 3: a certain amount and like this the shirts were like
Speaker 3: this big inside secret joke thing or like you kind
Speaker 3: of like a secret handshake type thing. But yeah, clothes,
Speaker 3: and we had a few shirts, like there was shirts
Speaker 3: that we would wear and whatever, and you would occasionally
Speaker 3: see someone out and be like, oh my gosh, like
Speaker 3: you're a girl cult And she turned it into an
Speaker 3: LLC and was like, we can all have a percentage
Speaker 3: of this company. I just need to raise money to
Speaker 3: you know, pay for the LLC. Everyone just chipping like
Speaker 3: ten fifteen bucks and like together, we're like revolutionizing like
Speaker 3: all this stuff that we're doing and turning it into
Speaker 3: this whole thing, and we're going to make so much.
Speaker 3: We're gonna make a huge difference in the world, and
Speaker 3: we're going to be this big company and everyone and
Speaker 3: whatever like, oh my god. Exciting, Like we're like becoming
Speaker 3: like this whole thing. And so what's ten fifteen dollars?
Speaker 3: Who cares?
Speaker 2: Well, we all did it, and I'm guessing no one
Speaker 2: who was contributing to that investment had any stake in
Speaker 2: this company.
Speaker 3: Of course, we didn't think our stak was. We got
Speaker 3: to say that we got scammed out of fifteen and
Speaker 3: twenty dollars'll be mad and then you know, the money
Speaker 3: stuff just got weirder and weirder. And one of her
Speaker 3: designer dogs was very sick and needed to be euthanized
Speaker 3: at home, so we all chipped in for that because
Speaker 3: she was freaking out she didn't have the funds to
Speaker 3: do that with you know, the home. The home services
Speaker 3: are much more expensive than bringing them into the vet.
Speaker 3: So we all were like, oh my gosh, like, of course,
Speaker 3: anything for this sweet puppy, older dog. But we all
Speaker 3: sent in, you know, money to have that happen. And
Speaker 3: we checked on her for a couple of days like
Speaker 3: are you okay, Like that's such a huge loss, and
Speaker 3: then I'm not kidding you. I want to say, two
Speaker 3: days later she posts a new puppy of another designer
Speaker 3: dog that she bought stop with our money that gave
Speaker 3: her to put down her other dog, because if she
Speaker 3: had enough money, like are you doing the math? Like
Speaker 3: we send her this money for the for the dog,
Speaker 3: and instead of sending anything back or being like, oh guys,
Speaker 3: don't she clearly had enough to get an entire newss.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, So are these kind of the cracks
Speaker 1: that are starting to occur for you and the illusion.
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, the cracks are growing and spider webbing and
Speaker 3: getting bigger and more frequent, and not just for me,
Speaker 3: as everyone was starting to sniff around for like that's weird,
Speaker 3: you know. On the side text start like yeah, dog,
Speaker 3: everyone listen. Everyone grieves differently. I'm not judging anyone whatever
Speaker 3: choice for me personally, I when my cat passed away,
Speaker 3: I was not thinking about getting another cat within two days,
Speaker 3: like I just wouldn't be ready again. Everyone does that differently,
Speaker 3: but I was like, that's kind of bonkers to me, Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: replacing your dog with the same kind two days later
Speaker 3: and it's.
Speaker 4: A designer dog. After yelling at people for years to
Speaker 4: not do that, right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and after taking her moody to put down her
Speaker 3: other dog. But you know, no one forced to give
Speaker 3: this money. So it's like, hey, you know, like the
Speaker 3: lesson lesson learned, and you know, I might have given
Speaker 3: three hundred dollars the whole time I was in their total,
Speaker 3: including donating to people in need who directly caught it,
Speaker 3: but a lot of other members gave a lot lot more.
Speaker 2: I was gonna ask.
Speaker 3: And you want to feel important, and yeah, irreplaceable.
Speaker 2: So did people start calling her out on this like.
Speaker 3: So a little. I don't know if they did in
Speaker 3: the group, but I think people were like, hey, friend,
Speaker 3: Like I was not as close to her as other members,
Speaker 3: Like I didn't hang out with her one on one.
Speaker 3: I didn't go to a lot of the events just
Speaker 3: because I was like, this kind of feels weird all
Speaker 3: of a sudden. But I think some of her close
Speaker 3: friends were like, dude, like what was that? What was
Speaker 3: that all about? And like money makes things weird with
Speaker 3: anyone close friends, culture not you know, but yeah, people
Speaker 3: we're starting to be like this is off, and then
Speaker 3: you know, I want to say there was like there's
Speaker 3: definitely like a final story of like the financial stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was all the tea. I didn't know, Like
Speaker 2: I kept hearing girls like whisper about how things had
Speaker 2: gone really shady in G and I and how things
Speaker 2: had gotten really culty in G and I long before
Speaker 2: we had this podcast. This is what everybody was kind
Speaker 2: of whispering, but nobody would ever give me specifics. Like
Speaker 2: I knew there were financial questions and allegations, and I
Speaker 2: knew there were I the sort of inklings that I
Speaker 2: got were that were Yeah, like to use Megan's word,
Speaker 2: like that there was a collateral type of thing happening
Speaker 2: in the group where people's secrets would be used against them.
Speaker 2: Was that were they ever actually used against them or
Speaker 2: was it just sort of like this hanging threat that
Speaker 2: people were anxious about.
Speaker 3: So I don't know if it was Vivian specifically or
Speaker 3: if it was ex members of the group who felt better.
Speaker 3: But yeah, like things got leaked, people's pictures got shared,
Speaker 3: people's posts in the group got screenshot and posted publicly.
Speaker 3: A lot of women in the group are sex workers
Speaker 3: whose identity needs to stay private and safe. Some of
Speaker 3: those women got doxed. Oh yeah, so it did thankfully
Speaker 3: for me. I posted maybe like one cute lingerie photo
Speaker 3: in the group and like, look, girls, I feel cute,
Speaker 3: and like maybe one recycled but to like some random
Speaker 3: person's boyfriend in twenty sixteen, So like, I didn't, you know,
Speaker 3: share too much, but I there are things in there
Speaker 3: that I hope are not screenshop but you never know.
Speaker 3: But yeah, things got leaked, people's pictures did get shared,
Speaker 3: people's secrets got posted, and yeah, are.
Speaker 2: There any connection between like people who had sort of
Speaker 2: spoken out or disagreed with Vivian and were then.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there were a couple of people that that
Speaker 3: happened to. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Interesting.
Speaker 3: And again I can't tell if it was her who
Speaker 3: posted it, because I think some of these leaks were anonymous.
Speaker 3: Someone had started a whole blog they did.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna take a wild guess that it's her.
Speaker 1: You you did say one thing that was really interesting
Speaker 1: to me, so in the group I was raised in
Speaker 1: the two by two is if somebody left, they were
Speaker 1: immediately called better. And I did hear Vivian say that
Speaker 1: word a couple times in Girls Night Out, where if
Speaker 1: somebody was kicked out, she'd be like, they're better, They're mad,
Speaker 1: And I'd be like, yeah, better is such a low key,
Speaker 1: like good cult tactic I found.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's.
Speaker 2: It immediately delegitimizes any critique that they might have of
Speaker 2: the group, and it immediately creates it denigrates them. It
Speaker 2: creates an us versus them.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they just sound like such a lame hater,
Speaker 1: like a better just like like in the crying like.
Speaker 3: It definitely just like minimizes their truth, which is like
Speaker 3: I just couldn't do it. Anymore, you know, right, But yeah,
Speaker 3: I know people who's who are still kind of recovering
Speaker 3: from the doxing and wow, life ruining, just like private
Speaker 3: things about the relationships and my gosh, preferences that are.
Speaker 2: Turns out it wasn't such a safe space.
Speaker 3: I was trust no one really.
Speaker 2: I have a short film that I made called The
Speaker 2: Safe Space, which was not I didn't know any of
Speaker 2: the inner workings of this particular group, but I know
Speaker 2: I would notice some patterns along these lines in some
Speaker 2: of these Facebook groups. Some of them were fine and great,
Speaker 2: but that was what inspired my short The Safe Space,
Speaker 2: which is about a safe is it turns out to
Speaker 2: not be safe for the members who.
Speaker 1: Do not Is this ending?
Speaker 3: It's already I'll check it out.
Speaker 2: It's very short, it's two minutes long. But yeah, it's
Speaker 2: it's online if anyone wants to see it, because yeah,
Speaker 2: it's it would it seemed, yeah, it was. It scared me.
Speaker 2: That era of Facebook groups scared me because you would
Speaker 2: join something thinking that it is a safe place, and
Speaker 2: then you would see it would become just like more
Speaker 2: and more aggressive and hostile and like more about more
Speaker 2: about conforming and then about like having a community or
Speaker 2: connecting or like learning in a healthy way you know.
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, terrifying. It's terrib Yeah, it's so good and
Speaker 3: a lot of it is good. Again, I met some
Speaker 3: really amazing women in that group, and I'm still friends
Speaker 3: with a lot of them, you know, because it's not
Speaker 3: about the members being bad as much as the environment
Speaker 3: and like the leaders.
Speaker 2: So well that's the thing. It's like it gets hijacked
Speaker 2: and that, and like that's what takes time to kind
Speaker 2: of figure out, is like, oh, is this person like
Speaker 2: healthy leader or is this person like yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: low key, kind of narcissistic or have possessing.
Speaker 3: Like three episodes, there's just so many, I knows to it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: pretty crazy And do you have just that money thing
Speaker 3: was wild. She had her own car shop that she
Speaker 3: promoted as women owned, and it wasn't And she was
Speaker 3: like working at this auto shop body shop place. And
Speaker 3: I found out later I don't know if it's true
Speaker 3: or not, but it was like circulating that she was
Speaker 3: committing like insurance fraud.
Speaker 4: I do not doubt doubt that at all.
Speaker 3: Everything that she did kind of had some kind of weird,
Speaker 3: grifty foundation.
Speaker 1: Absolutely so put a voice to these rumors. Can you
Speaker 1: just kind of talk us through how you woke up
Speaker 1: and how you got out and what was kind of
Speaker 1: going on around you.
Speaker 3: I initially got out of the group kind of it
Speaker 3: sort of crumbled on its own. I was not active
Speaker 3: in it for a while, kind of after the dog thing,
Speaker 3: and you know, there was just so much going on
Speaker 3: in the world. I want to say, this was happening
Speaker 3: during the Black Lives Matter movement first coming out, and
Speaker 3: if anyone knows about this group, they know what this
Speaker 3: is going to be. But she was doing like mutual
Speaker 3: aid and going out to protest and bringing water and
Speaker 3: bringing food and snacks and having everyone venmo her to
Speaker 3: provide water for everyone at the protest, and was making
Speaker 3: like an Amazon wish list for things or said she
Speaker 3: was going to but in the meantime to cash up
Speaker 3: her and venmo her. And we're like, of course, and
Speaker 3: we see, you know, her posting on her stories that
Speaker 3: she's at these and she is handing out water, so
Speaker 3: you're like, okay, Like I I can see my money
Speaker 3: going somewhere. Although maybe she only bought like a case
Speaker 3: of forty and got like four hundred dollars. I don't know.
Speaker 3: But the thing that her downfall, which is so crazy,
Speaker 3: was she had posted a pair of shoes that she
Speaker 3: wanted with a link and said, I really want these
Speaker 3: shoes for the protest since I'm walking around so much,
Speaker 3: I could really use like a pair of shoes, and
Speaker 3: everyone was like, what you need protest shoes?
Speaker 4: Like what were the shoes? I have to know, I.
Speaker 3: Don't remember, Like I would probably equate it to maybe
Speaker 3: some like on Clouds or something where they're like not she,
Speaker 3: They're like, you know, on clous to start like one
Speaker 3: twenty or something go up to like two hundred bucks.
Speaker 3: I think they were like frere and also like what
Speaker 3: we just all venoed you what shoes were you wearing
Speaker 3: this whole time? Like just wear those? And then she's
Speaker 3: had like a specific, like kind of snobby pair of
Speaker 3: shoes and we were all just like what for what?
Speaker 3: And was just that kind of forced everyone to like
Speaker 3: take a step back and be like what is going on?
Speaker 3: And then it just turned out, you know, everyone was
Speaker 3: sending her so much money and she was bringing like
Speaker 3: I don't know, ten sandwiches and like a case of
Speaker 3: Costco waters. I don't know, I don't know, I'm not
Speaker 3: saying she didn't help at those things. But after all
Speaker 3: those incidents, like you know, with the dog thing and
Speaker 3: the LLC thing and all all the stuff, We're like,
Speaker 3: the math isn't mathing, and I think I'm in a cult?
Speaker 4: What does that feel like?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Yeah, what were you?
Speaker 3: It was crazy. It wasn't a shocking as you would think,
Speaker 3: because there are moments where like, this is kind of culty,
Speaker 3: but I sort of like it. I feel like anything
Speaker 3: where you like in a sorority, it's kind of culty,
Speaker 3: and like people are fine with that, and you know,
Speaker 3: like there's there's structures socially where that kind of stuff happens.
Speaker 3: And we made a joke that its occults. But then
Speaker 3: I was like, oh my god. And you know, when
Speaker 3: that downfall started happening with the protest shoes, we all
Speaker 3: started being like, hey, like, are you guys feeling what
Speaker 3: I'm feeling? Like, yeah, I feel like this is weird, Like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, like is this a cult? Like kind
Speaker 3: of realized it together at the same time, so it
Speaker 3: wasn't as scary as like me being the only one
Speaker 3: trying to escape and everyone threatening me or me feeling
Speaker 3: like I'm in danger. Because I want to say she
Speaker 3: like deleted her Facebook or like closed the group because
Speaker 3: everyone started kind of bringing up like what's going on,
Speaker 3: like what we're and also whatever happened to this money
Speaker 3: and this money and whatever happened with the LLC, and
Speaker 3: she just kind of went into hiding and we all
Speaker 3: sort of tried to scramble and brainstorm together, all the members, but.
Speaker 4: So she shut down the group.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so I don't really remember, because I don't know
Speaker 3: if it's like so much time has passed or if
Speaker 3: it was just like my chalmar brains, like don't even
Speaker 3: think about it, how embarrassing, but the group got deleted
Speaker 3: or something like everything got deleted. I think there were
Speaker 3: a couple other admins who felt afraid because all of
Speaker 3: our stuff was in there, and no one wanted anything
Speaker 3: screenshot for her to retaliate or anything, because here's this big,
Speaker 3: powerful person when it comes to personal lif information powerful.
Speaker 3: So I think one of the eminents went in there
Speaker 3: and just like shut it all down because everything was
Speaker 3: it got bad real fast, all at once. But my
Speaker 3: experience was not super shocked or scared again because we
Speaker 3: all realized it, you know, it kind of crumbled on
Speaker 3: it having to leave. Yeah, but yeah, it took many,
Speaker 3: many months and for some a lot of people like years,
Speaker 3: and people are still kind of dealing with the trauma
Speaker 3: that that group brought out. Yeah, it was crazy.
Speaker 2: Do you have friends who left, maybe before the whole
Speaker 2: thing collapsed and like experienced fear and repercussions because of that.
Speaker 3: You have friends who left, but they weren't super involved.
Speaker 3: They just kind of felt weird or just like you know,
Speaker 3: they left and they didn't feel super affected either way.
Speaker 3: I know a couple of people who left or maybe
Speaker 3: got kicked out. I can't quite remember because again this
Speaker 3: was around twenty nineteen already, but they were not good
Speaker 3: like when they did, because I think it was like
Speaker 3: a kicked out type thing. And then one of those
Speaker 3: people got docked and their screenshots got shared, so they
Speaker 3: were not good and they felt, yeah, afraid for their
Speaker 3: safety and their privacy. A lot of it was just
Speaker 3: really private.
Speaker 4: Stuff, right, like some.
Speaker 3: Crazy confessions went down and there, and again it was
Speaker 3: a diary, but a thousand people had the key, which
Speaker 3: is right, right, we're scared.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was never in g and I I guess
Speaker 2: I must have just seen it. Like some was like
Speaker 2: seeing people write about it, because I definitely like knew
Speaker 2: it existed and like wondered why I hadn't been added
Speaker 2: to it. Maybe, but I still remember even muting GNO
Speaker 2: the larger group because some of the threads would just
Speaker 2: be so combative and like hostile. Yeah, and it just
Speaker 2: felt like non stop drama, And I was like, I'm
Speaker 2: going to just remove myself from seeing this in my
Speaker 2: feed because this is Trussie.
Speaker 3: It was like an energy stock for sure. Some sometimes Yeah.
Speaker 2: And that was just like the big the big group
Speaker 2: that wasn't even the inner cert of stuff at all.
Speaker 2: So I can only imagine we.
Speaker 3: Would make fun of GNO all the time in GNI, like.
Speaker 1: We would make that yeah, yeah, I would have been
Speaker 1: sending boob pictures.
Speaker 4: And pachologically my secrets all day.
Speaker 3: Psychologically it was just like so scrumptious, like yeah, yamyam yam.
Speaker 3: I don't know how else to describe.
Speaker 2: It, scrumptious.
Speaker 1: So how did you start to rebuelb after this blow
Speaker 1: to your your like view of life?
Speaker 3: I again, wasn't so so so involved that I feared
Speaker 3: for my safety or anything like that. I it's kind
Speaker 3: of embarrassing to be like, oh my God, I was in.
Speaker 1: Call It's like, well, that's what this podcast is about,
Speaker 1: because it's not of course.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I just think, well, you know, I'm in
Speaker 3: a cult and I don't really realize that, like ha ha,
Speaker 3: it's a girl cult. Like it's a joke. And I'm
Speaker 3: sitting here like watching a documentary on a cult. I'm
Speaker 3: like my mouth full trip, I'm like talk people mosel stupid,
Speaker 3: and I'm like watching it, I'm like this whole time,
Speaker 3: I'm so that was uh, it was just a little
Speaker 3: uh embarrassing. I my a lot of my friends were
Speaker 3: deeply traumatized and troubled by everything that happened. So I
Speaker 3: think for me, it was more me feeling for other
Speaker 3: people and just feeling terrible that like how do we
Speaker 3: not know this earlier? Like I should have known earlier?
Speaker 3: And you know, guy, did you not to do that
Speaker 3: or not say that? And you know, like you can't
Speaker 3: you can't really look back and think of it that way.
Speaker 3: But I'm I'm fine from it, you know, like certain
Speaker 3: things are achey to talk about and certain things I
Speaker 3: completely forgot about and learning things about Vivian, you know,
Speaker 3: about like the underage possible like trafficking people. You're like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, I gave money to that person. I
Speaker 3: helped that person. I looked up to that person. So
Speaker 3: it was like, once everything kind of came to the surface,
Speaker 3: I was like kind of eeked out, but like, eh,
Speaker 3: like I helped this person who actually ruined a lot
Speaker 3: of people's lives, and you know, caused a lot of
Speaker 3: pain and trauma in people's lives. So for me, the
Speaker 3: experience looking back is like, I wish I didn't never
Speaker 3: help that person when I feel bad for everyone who's
Speaker 3: been deeply affected by it.
Speaker 2: Where is Vivia now? What's going on with her?
Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, those paparazzi photos came out.
Speaker 4: What paparazzi photos the.
Speaker 3: Dave Grol debacle. Someone from the group or I don't
Speaker 3: know if it's g and I or GNO or someone
Speaker 3: who couldn't get into G nine and was bitter as
Speaker 3: you said. Docsed a few people and their phone numbers
Speaker 3: and Vivian's whereabouts and gave information to the Daily Mail,
Speaker 3: it seems, and they took paparazzi photos of Vivian.
Speaker 1: So Dave girl Foo fighters he's in the news right now.
Speaker 1: He got somebody that's not his wife pregnant, and there
Speaker 1: are rumors and pictures of him with Vivian, And now
Speaker 1: the people were wondering if she was the baby mama.
Speaker 4: She I do not.
Speaker 3: She is not.
Speaker 1: No, but that was a rumor on the Daily Mail
Speaker 1: for a moment. But yeah, she's just kind of come
Speaker 1: back in the zeitgeist. Is why was she hanging out
Speaker 1: with this man all the time? And you know, Dave
Speaker 1: girl sucks. And then from that article I was transferred
Speaker 1: to another article was like this is how bad Vivian is.
Speaker 4: This is what she was doing.
Speaker 1: And I was like, oh damn's she's being like outed
Speaker 1: once again.
Speaker 4: She just comes up every couple of years.
Speaker 3: Is like, yes, yes, and it's always very juicy.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but she's not the baby mama, so the rumor
Speaker 2: is false. And also I just have to say, like
Speaker 2: people cheat on each other all the time. I don't
Speaker 2: think it's ethical, but I don't necessarily think that warrants
Speaker 2: like being your whole life being uprooted and canceled over that.
Speaker 1: Well.
Speaker 2: I don't think we're saying cheating is abuse, right, That's
Speaker 2: like a different thing. But it just is bringing up
Speaker 2: this stuff from her past.
Speaker 3: It's bringing up stuff because she used to brag in
Speaker 3: the groups about hanging out with him and him coming
Speaker 3: over and him paying for her bills and all these things.
Speaker 3: So when when the news surfaced that he went outside
Speaker 3: of his marriage with some form of relationship, everyone was like,
Speaker 3: who was it Vivian because she would always talk about
Speaker 3: that kind of stuff. So then like, you know, people
Speaker 3: are making tiktoks like does anyone I think this is
Speaker 3: about Vivian? And people were posting on Facebook, like you know,
Speaker 3: sharing the article and being like we all know who
Speaker 3: are thinking about like without that, So it just kind
Speaker 3: of spread like wildfire. And then people who wanted to
Speaker 3: I don't know, weirdly monetize off of that just kind
Speaker 3: of reached out to weird daily mail people and I
Speaker 3: don't know weird and I you know, I don't think
Speaker 3: anyone really deserves their privacy being invaded or you know,
Speaker 3: people being followed and photos being taken. You know, it's
Speaker 3: the whole thing was pretty icky. Yeah, she did not
Speaker 3: look happy in the photos, and I think people kind
Speaker 3: of liked that she didn't look happy. So I have
Speaker 3: no feeling about that. I don't think it's right to
Speaker 3: you know, give out people's personal information because some of
Speaker 3: her ex friends, like people who are close to her
Speaker 3: got docked and people shared their numbers. I don't talk
Speaker 3: to that person anymore, like why are you calling me?
Speaker 3: And like bring up this person? So it just kind
Speaker 3: of started up a lot of things that didn't need to.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, it's messy. It's messy. Like I think that
Speaker 2: like J and I was obviously extremely problematic. Obviously Vivian's
Speaker 2: history is checkered. It's hard to verify which allegations are
Speaker 2: real and which are not. But I also like it
Speaker 2: starts to make me feel like the internet is perpetuating
Speaker 2: the same thing when we're fixating on looking for all
Speaker 2: the things publicizing someone else's private things if it did
Speaker 2: not involve like abuse or something that was actually.
Speaker 3: Exploitation, right, it's just like it's gets messy. But you know,
Speaker 3: gossip is gossip, and it was a very gossipy article
Speaker 3: for a.
Speaker 2: Very yeah platform, So yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: I don't blame them for like, yeah, really trying to
Speaker 3: wring out the towel.
Speaker 1: But I kind of think cheating without production is a
Speaker 1: little abusive.
Speaker 2: You can get things, But also I just like for sure,
Speaker 2: but I also just like so many people make mistakes
Speaker 2: like that in their life, and there's so the situations
Speaker 2: like are not in them, we don't know what's going on.
Speaker 2: We also don't know who has arrangements and doesn't you know,
Speaker 2: Like it's yeah, I just think that's the kind of
Speaker 2: thing that should stay between partners, unless unless someone was
Speaker 2: genuinely hurt, you.
Speaker 3: Know, Yeah, if you don't want anyone to know, don't
Speaker 3: do it for everything in life, and.
Speaker 2: Best if you're famous.
Speaker 4: Actually yeah, you.
Speaker 3: Really, Yeah, that's it's so easy to just well that's kind.
Speaker 1: Of probably one of the takeaways you took from this
Speaker 1: experience is like oh damn, like just don't do what
Speaker 1: my gut instinct is telling me to do.
Speaker 3: And yeah, but again like uh, those kind of things
Speaker 3: happened really slowly, slowly, little little, a little little, and
Speaker 3: all of a sudden, something's normal. So because you know,
Speaker 3: of course, looking back, I can't believe girls were sending
Speaker 3: pictures like that to a complete stranger of a man
Speaker 3: just because we know his girlfriend, like we're all you know,
Speaker 3: I look back, I'm like, that's crazy. But if you
Speaker 3: see it little by little happen, then all of a sudden,
Speaker 3: it's normal. Then you're like okay, then you're desensitized and
Speaker 3: the next thing is not so crizy. That's what I'm.
Speaker 2: Saying, Like we are all capable of engaging and behaviors
Speaker 2: that aren't aligned with what we would normally want, depending
Speaker 2: on the circumstances we're in, especially in a group like that.
Speaker 2: Like that's the whole thing. It does. It wears down
Speaker 2: your sense of like what you would normally do and
Speaker 2: what does feel aligned with yourself ethically, So like it, yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean pretty crazy. I want to know, like you know,
Speaker 2: to someone who wasn't in this era of Internet and
Speaker 2: is in like a new era of Internet, like what
Speaker 2: do you what would you consider like some of the
Speaker 2: red flags to look out for?
Speaker 3: Red flags? I mean, I if you again, if you
Speaker 3: don't want anyone to know, don't do it. If you
Speaker 3: don't want Here's the thing. The Internet is forever, like
Speaker 3: no matter what you're doing, no matter how safe you
Speaker 3: think you're being, the Internet's basically forever. So don't really
Speaker 3: you can't really trust anyone. You don't really know anyone,
Speaker 3: and that happens all the time. I'm not saying to
Speaker 3: live life completely closed off, but you know, have your
Speaker 3: own safety and character in mind before wanting to be
Speaker 3: perceived by someone else, If that makes sense.
Speaker 4: I don't like have a journal and a therapist.
Speaker 3: You know, prioritize your own self care and like self allness, right,
Speaker 3: and don't rely on like you know, I mean, community
Speaker 3: is important, and having safety and you know, protection in
Speaker 3: friendship and social relationships with women is important. But it's
Speaker 3: like always go with your gut. If there's like one
Speaker 3: thing that you're like, this kind of seems weird, Like
Speaker 3: I should have left at dancing, man, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, I should have like left off, like I
Speaker 3: don't really need this, but I think I think being
Speaker 3: perceived in this town is such an addiction, like especially
Speaker 3: in LA and like wanting to be important and wanting
Speaker 3: to be known and wanting to be popular. It's just
Speaker 3: those kind of things don't really leave people's brains just
Speaker 3: because they leave high school and like leave college and
Speaker 3: leave their sorority. It's like all those things you still
Speaker 3: want to be the best. It's just human nature, you know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, high schools forever, which is so sad to think.
Speaker 2: It's so sad always like that.
Speaker 4: It's more like middle school forever.
Speaker 3: Yeah true, yeah, yeah, yeah. I guess the red flags
Speaker 3: they're just you know, don't if someone is asking you
Speaker 3: to be someone that you're not, that's a red flag.
Speaker 3: No matter how cool it seems or how edgy or whatever.
Speaker 3: You know, it's it's tricky. And have good people around
Speaker 3: you to be like, I think you're gonna cull find
Speaker 3: your something good people, And like as soon as you're
Speaker 3: being isolated or told to keep things a secret, like
Speaker 3: that's as soon as you're a little kid, your mom's
Speaker 3: like playing most secrets, like tell Molly and everything, most secrets,
Speaker 3: and then suddenly like living in a secret nothing from
Speaker 3: first grade.
Speaker 1: And I think, like, like it's just important to remember
Speaker 1: that every single good thing in the world is good
Speaker 1: going to be infiltrated.
Speaker 4: By somebody trying to exploit it.
Speaker 1: Sounly, I keep hearing the Bridesmaid's quote whenever you talk Rosy,
Speaker 1: she's like, never trust anybody.
Speaker 4: Remember that.
Speaker 1: No, you don't know, I might be like misquoting it,
Speaker 1: but she's like, never trust anybody. And you know, like
Speaker 1: positive movements they get those little yucky people sucked in
Speaker 1: and they're sociopaths, so they rise to the top as
Speaker 1: immediately and then suddenly you know something that looks really
Speaker 1: and it's just yeah, your discretion always has to be used,
Speaker 1: no matter how safe a space feels.
Speaker 3: Not to make people paranoid, but.
Speaker 1: Just thank you for sharing about this group that we've
Speaker 1: been so curious about. It's hard to find a Girl's
Speaker 1: Night In member who is willing to speak to us,
Speaker 1: so we're so grateful that you are kind of giving
Speaker 1: us the tea and the whole story.
Speaker 4: I'm shuck.
Speaker 1: All I knew was dancing, man, I did not know
Speaker 1: the shoes. That's wild that that's.
Speaker 3: What I'm sure there's some kind of Reddit.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but that's what took us down.
Speaker 1: Is just perfect, you know, the of course you would
Speaker 1: ask for shoes, but yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2: Okay, uh well we both know if we would join,
Speaker 2: because we were in the larger group and probably wanted
Speaker 2: to be in Girls' Night In, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, would have been sending all sorts of pics all
Speaker 1: day long.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Like, I didn't necessarily feel like this group was
Speaker 2: my community so much, but I definitely like, I think
Speaker 2: something about the secretive nature of it made me just
Speaker 2: want to know what was happening. I'm like, well, I
Speaker 2: don't want to be out of the loop.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: In my experience, it was that like five of my
Speaker 1: really good friends were in it, and we had a
Speaker 1: group chat about the drama. Oh you didn't like did
Speaker 1: you see the ridiculous thing Blah posted and the responses
Speaker 1: and like it was just kind of a funny like
Speaker 1: a Twitter account almost for a side group text.
Speaker 2: Right right, right, right. Yeah. I was never that close
Speaker 2: in it. I just like all these acquaintances and whispers
Speaker 2: and rumors, and I just more was like, what's happening?
Speaker 2: Why am I not in there? But yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: you were making a point before we started recording about
Speaker 2: how the safer the group feels you can finish the thought.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well I was just kind of musing that I
Speaker 1: feel like the more niche and safe the group starts out,
Speaker 1: the more likely somebody predatory is going to find it,
Speaker 1: infiltrate it, and find a way to use it for
Speaker 1: their own gain. Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's just so hard because it's like you don't want
Speaker 2: to you don't want to foster like a sense of
Speaker 2: total distrust of the world, Like that's not healthy for
Speaker 2: our psychees. There are so like, yeah, it's but you're right,
Speaker 2: like there is every I think basically, like every group
Speaker 2: needs to have accountability and every group needs to like
Speaker 2: have a leader who like gets allows feedback and accepts
Speaker 2: feedback and has conversations. And if those aren't happening, then no,
Speaker 2: no group deserves implicit trust without Yeah, you know.
Speaker 1: It's a hard it's a hard pill to swallow because
Speaker 1: I don't know, the Internet kind of sets us up
Speaker 1: for giant dopamine heads from being part of the tribe.
Speaker 1: And yeah, that's still fine, but uh, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: Nora can show us how to think twice before you
Speaker 1: go any deeper.
Speaker 2: Indeed, and also as a reminder to I think this
Speaker 2: story serves as a reminder to like take note of
Speaker 2: even the small concessions, because the small they always start small.
Speaker 2: They never open with the big stuff, you know, it's
Speaker 2: always like a little bit and a little bit. And
Speaker 2: then I think it's like, Okay, if someone's asking you
Speaker 2: to make small concessions or do things you wouldn't normally
Speaker 2: do that don't seem like a big deal at the time,
Speaker 2: are you able to question it? Are you allowed to
Speaker 2: voice a different opinion? Because if you are then maybe
Speaker 2: it's okay because we all make mistakes and you know,
Speaker 2: groupthink happens to all of us. But if you aren't
Speaker 2: allowed to question it, then that's exactly probably when you
Speaker 2: should be right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, damn well, lots to think about, lots to integrate.
Speaker 1: We can't wait to see you again here next week.
Speaker 1: Please rate us five stars if you like what we're doing,
Speaker 1: and as always, remember.
Speaker 4: To follow your gut, watch out for red flags.
Speaker 2: And never ever trust me me Bye. Trust Me is
Speaker 2: produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator.
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at
Speaker 1: trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Abraham
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word