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Speaker 1: There were no red flags. I could have seen the

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Speaker 1: Derek on paper. He seemed like the perfect therapist. I

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Speaker 1: shared things with them I have never said out loud,

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Speaker 1: and I am looking at a photo of his face

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Speaker 1: being charged with the exact same things that atrumpotize me.

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Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about

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Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that

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Speaker 2: change everything. This is Chelsea's story. Chelsea has a high

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Speaker 2: profile career, so for this episode, all the names have

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Speaker 2: been to protect her anonymity.

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Speaker 1: I really hope that one day I will be in

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Speaker 1: a place where I can present myself publicly and say, look,

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Speaker 1: this is me, this is my real name, this is

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Speaker 1: where I'm really from.

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Speaker 2: Chelsea's been through more abuse than anyone should have to experience.

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Speaker 2: As a child, she was trafficked by her parents. She

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Speaker 2: says that her experience wasn't like the movies where she

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Speaker 2: was kidnapped and held against her will. Instead, her mother

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Speaker 2: brought her to adults' homes who groomed and sexually abused her.

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Speaker 2: At the time, her mom worked for a man who

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Speaker 2: was later charged with multiple counts of child sexual abuse.

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Speaker 2: Chelsea knew she needed to get away from home for good.

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Speaker 1: Education was my escape from home. I got scholarships, I

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Speaker 1: was an amazing student. I went to every opportunity I

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Speaker 1: could find for any sort of on the home program,

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Speaker 1: whether that was camps, whether that was college courses over

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Speaker 1: the summer.

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Speaker 3: I used education as my way out.

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Speaker 2: She got a scholarship to college and stopped talking to

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Speaker 2: her parents. The further away she got from home, the

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Speaker 2: angrier she became about the abuse she experienced as a child.

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Speaker 1: And then there are all those feelings of betrayal of like,

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Speaker 1: what were all of these adults doing? Was there no

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Speaker 1: responsible adult in my life?

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Speaker 2: In order to survive, Chelsea focused on building her own

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Speaker 2: life an outside of home. She not only survived, she excelled.

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Speaker 2: She got an advanced degree and began a highly competitive,

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Speaker 2: successful career, and she threw herself into work. She says

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Speaker 2: that on the outside it looked like she had it altogether,

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Speaker 2: but on the inside it was a different story.

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Speaker 3: I was a.

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Speaker 1: Scared little child walking around in like an optimist prime suit.

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Speaker 1: I think anyone meeting me on the outside just thought, Wow,

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Speaker 1: that person has it all together, like that person is

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Speaker 1: invincible and destructible. Meanwhile, I was just dying on the inside.

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Speaker 2: She got married after college, but quickly realized she needed

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Speaker 2: to work on herself and her trauma before she could

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Speaker 2: invest in a successful marriage.

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Speaker 1: My ex husband and I were very amatably splitting up,

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Speaker 1: and also during that time, I was starting to confront

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Speaker 1: some of these things that had happened to me when

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Speaker 1: I was younger that were negatively impacting the way I

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Speaker 1: was able to show.

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Speaker 3: Up in relationships.

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Speaker 2: She started working with a therapist online processing the abuses

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Speaker 2: from her childhood, and around the same time, she reconnected

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Speaker 2: with an old friend who were going to call James.

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Speaker 3: James began reaching out.

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Speaker 1: He had also gone through a breakup, and we were

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Speaker 1: kind of just processing this idea of us both having

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Speaker 1: this rebirth of rediscovering ourselves after a long term relationship.

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Speaker 2: She and James started talking every day. After a few months,

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Speaker 2: she realized.

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Speaker 1: That there was something that we wanted to explore. It

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Speaker 1: just felt like he was this person who was there

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Speaker 1: the entire time, right under my nose.

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Speaker 2: James really saw her and met her where she was emotionally.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that really drew me to him

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Speaker 1: was just how focused he was on my emotions. It

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Speaker 1: felt really wonderful, and it felt really safe and really attentive,

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Speaker 1: and he just had such an incredible way of viewing

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Speaker 1: the world and was also just very cultured in a

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Speaker 1: way that I hadn't experienced.

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Speaker 2: He gave her access to a world Chelsea idealized, a

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Speaker 2: community of artists who expanded her worldview.

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Speaker 1: James had this whole artistic side to him, like he

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Speaker 1: was a visual artist. His medium was kind of like

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Speaker 1: social commentary photography, but not your typical photography, like a

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Speaker 1: lot of like distortions of images, and I just really

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Speaker 1: appreciated him as an artist.

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Speaker 2: James came from a wealthy family and he had inherited

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Speaker 2: a large real estate portfolio. It meant his schedule was

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Speaker 2: flexible and he had a lot of disposable income. So

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Speaker 2: for their third date, I.

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Speaker 1: Remember him standing there and just saying, this might sound crazy,

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Speaker 1: but are you doing anything for Thanksgiving?

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Speaker 3: I was like, no, I'm not.

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Speaker 1: I'm estranged from most of my family, so holidays are

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Speaker 1: always kind of a weird time. And He's like, I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of doing a solo thing in New York City.

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Speaker 1: Would you want to fly out with me? And I

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Speaker 1: was like, why not, Let's do this Our third date

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Speaker 1: was this week long trip in New York City. Well,

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Speaker 1: he planned everything and it was Luber Steakhouse and amazing

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Speaker 1: seats at some jazz venue and going and seeing a

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Speaker 1: Broadway production.

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Speaker 3: I've only been to New York once before. It was

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Speaker 3: really amazing.

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Speaker 1: It was just showing me New York and it was

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Speaker 1: pretty incredible.

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Speaker 2: After their week long third date, they became a couple.

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Speaker 2: They lived a few hours apart, so on the weekends

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Speaker 2: they'd go to each other's cities, where James planned elaborate outings.

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Speaker 1: James was really into arts and culture, so we would

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Speaker 1: go to museums and see different musicians or plays, and

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Speaker 1: it was really fun. Everything just happened so fast. It

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Speaker 1: felt like out of a fairy tale.

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Speaker 2: These dates quickly progressed into a relationship, and Chelsea says

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Speaker 2: that above all, being with him felt so easy.

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Speaker 1: So right, and that was something we would always say together.

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Speaker 1: This just seemed so easy.

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Speaker 2: One of Chelsea's friends was married to James's best friend,

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Speaker 2: so right away they had a community together. But that

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Speaker 2: also meant Chelsea's friend had seen James in prior relationships.

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Speaker 1: She did warn me early on that he had a

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Speaker 1: history of she described it as being selfish.

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Speaker 2: Early on. Chelsea saw a little bit of that, but

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Speaker 2: she didn't necessarily see it as selfish. It was more overbearing.

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Speaker 1: He was very concerned about my sexual history, frequently asking

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Speaker 1: questions about the identity of my prior partners, the number

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Speaker 1: of prior partners I'd had.

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Speaker 2: He would ask to go through her phone. She hated

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Speaker 2: that and it gave her pause about the relationship, so

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Speaker 2: she addressed it with him directly. His reply made her

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Speaker 2: feel better.

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Speaker 1: He said that he started therapy and became very open

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Speaker 1: about his efforts to try to address his insecurities. He

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Speaker 1: started telling me about the therapist he started seeing, and

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Speaker 1: it meant a lot for me to hear this level

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Speaker 1: of accountability from someone. So I was willing to continue

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Speaker 1: to try to explore something with James.

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Speaker 2: Because they both believed in therapy, they started couples counseling together.

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Speaker 2: It was only three months into the relationship, but they

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Speaker 2: both wanted to improve their communication and connection.

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Speaker 1: I was at this place in my life where I

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Speaker 1: was very vulnerable but also energized to do the work

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Speaker 1: to heal myself, and to have James reflect that back

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Speaker 1: to me was really significant. I was dealing with a

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Speaker 1: lot of personal sexual dysfunction as a result of digging

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Speaker 1: into my own trauma history, and he was very open

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Speaker 1: to hearing about my boundaries. It was very open to

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Speaker 1: try to make our sexual connection a safe place. He

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Speaker 1: had his own sexual dysfunctions, so that was something that

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Speaker 1: we were able to talk about openly. And this was

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Speaker 1: the first relationship I had been in where I was

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Speaker 1: aware of those things for myself and I was communicating

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Speaker 1: with them, and he was very receptive to that, and

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Speaker 1: that made me feel very safe.

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Speaker 2: They were communicating better than ever. They were still long distance,

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Speaker 2: but James began staying at our place more often.

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Speaker 1: So James had a key to my house pretty early.

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Speaker 1: I worked really long and crazy hours, so I wanted

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Speaker 1: him to have a key so that he could just

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Speaker 1: let himself in and out.

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Speaker 3: And had a dog at the.

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Speaker 1: Time, and he and the dog had really bonded and

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Speaker 1: it was nice to have him around.

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Speaker 2: When the pandemic started in twenty twenty, their lives officially merged.

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Speaker 1: Neither one of us wanted to be alone through that,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly, five months into dating, James and I went

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Speaker 1: from living a few hours away to we were living

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Speaker 1: together and me working within twenty feet of him at

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Speaker 1: all times.

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Speaker 2: Now quarantining together with Chelsea working from home, James's controlling

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Speaker 2: behavior returned as the couple grew closer. James couldn't hide

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Speaker 2: his jealous side. He became more controlling about who she

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Speaker 2: was talking to and why.

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Speaker 1: I work in a fairly male dominated industry, so most

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Speaker 1: of my colleagues and my team were men, and James

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Speaker 1: was constantly fixated on who I was talking to. He

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Speaker 1: would always ask, what's their story?

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Speaker 3: What does that mean? They say, are they married? It's like, well,

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Speaker 3: I think so, but what does it matter? They work

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Speaker 3: for me.

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Speaker 2: He became almost paranoid, and Chelsea wasn't having it.

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Speaker 1: And I was getting more confident in standing up for

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Speaker 1: my own boundaries around my communication with other people, and frankly,

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Speaker 1: I was just getting sick and tired a feeling constantly

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Speaker 1: monitored by this person.

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Speaker 2: One day, they got into a heated argument about his behavior.

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Speaker 2: He insisted on going through her phone. She refused and

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Speaker 2: locked herself in the bedroom. That's when things escalated even further.

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Speaker 1: James, from the other side of the door, told me

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Speaker 1: that if I did not come out and speak to him,

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Speaker 1: and if I did not give him full access to

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Speaker 1: my phone. He was going to distribute private images of

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Speaker 1: me to my coworkers.

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Speaker 2: They were photos from early on in their relationship, photos

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Speaker 2: James said he would delete.

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Speaker 1: I spoke to him to the door and was like,

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Speaker 1: you said you deleted those, and he said, well, I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I lied to you about that. He went on to

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Speaker 1: say they meant a lot to me. You're just so beautifull,

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Speaker 1: and I wanted to keep them. And I was livid

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Speaker 1: that he had violated that trust. I was sick of it.

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Speaker 1: The fact that he had just told me that he

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Speaker 1: had images that he didn't have consent to was enough.

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Speaker 1: I wanted his phone, so I stepped outside that door.

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Speaker 1: I grabbed his phone. I went back inside my bedroom

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Speaker 1: and I locked the door and I went into it,

201
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Speaker 1: went back through our messages, found the images and deleted them.

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Speaker 1: And on an iPhone, it's not enough to delete them.

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Speaker 1: You then have to go to the deleted folder and

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Speaker 1: delete them from there. So when I was going to

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Speaker 1: the deleted folder, right below the deleted items, there's a

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Speaker 1: folder called the hidden folder.

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Speaker 3: And I'm seeing all sorts of things in this folder.

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Speaker 1: I don't really know how to grasp what I'm seeing,

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Speaker 1: and I can feel myself start to leave my own body,

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Speaker 1: and I can feel myself started to just float away

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Speaker 1: because what I am seeing I just cannot comprehend. And

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Speaker 1: while holding his phone in my left hand, I take

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Speaker 1: my phone in my right and I just start recording.

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Speaker 2: Chelsea thought she and her boyfriend James were on the

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Speaker 2: right track, going to individual and couple's therapy, working towards

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Speaker 2: a healthy relationship, but during the pandemic, James's controlling behavior

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Speaker 2: took a dark turn when he threatened to release nude

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Speaker 2: pictures of Chelsea to her colleagues, pictures he said he

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Speaker 2: got rid of. When she went into his phone to

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Speaker 2: delete the photos herself, she discovered another folder on his

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Speaker 2: photo app, the hidden folder, which exists on every iPhone

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Speaker 2: by the way, it's right next to the deleted folder.

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Speaker 1: The first thing I noticed was a series of photographs

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Speaker 1: of my condom where it looked like he was documenting

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Speaker 1: or spying on me. That kind of triggered this, oh shit,

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Speaker 1: what the fuck am I looking at feeling? It looked

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Speaker 1: like he had maybe gone through rooms, placed objects in

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Speaker 1: certain places to see if they were moved between When

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Speaker 1: he was leaving or coming back and forth, and they

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Speaker 1: had date stamps on them, so that was really strange.

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Speaker 2: She kept scrolling through the folder, which had hundreds of

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Speaker 2: images in it.

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Speaker 1: There were whole collections of nude photos of different women.

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Speaker 2: She recognized some of these women. There were photos of

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Speaker 2: his best friend's wife, the one that was Chelsea's friend,

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Speaker 2: the one that had warned her about James's selfish tendency.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, God, that looks like her, But why would

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Speaker 1: he have naked photos of his best friend's wife?

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Speaker 3: Why would he have these?

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Speaker 2: Right away? She called her.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I remember you had a tattoo on

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Speaker 1: your ankle. Which ankle is it on? And she told me,

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Speaker 1: And I was like, he has photos of you? And

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Speaker 1: she was just like, that's not possible. I have never, never, never,

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Speaker 1: And I was like, no, I don't think you sent

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Speaker 1: these to him.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you sent them.

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Speaker 2: Chelsea sent her friend the photos and she confirmed that, yes,

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Speaker 2: they were photos her husband had taken of her, but

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Speaker 2: she didn't know he shared them with anyone, much less James.

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Speaker 1: And you could just hear like the breath come out

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Speaker 1: of her, and she says, I'm going to talk to

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Speaker 1: my husband.

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Speaker 2: Before she hung up, she asked her friend.

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Speaker 1: Like, there's all sorts of other women in here. Do

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Speaker 1: you know any of these women? And she did, a

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Speaker 1: lot of these were the wives of James's friends. It

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Speaker 1: appeared that James and his male friend group were exchanging

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Speaker 1: these intimate photos with each other.

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Speaker 2: As Chelsea kept looking through James's hidden folder, she found

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Speaker 2: something even more disturbing.

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Speaker 1: The other category of images that he had on this

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Speaker 1: phone were dozens of photos of children, young children, two four,

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Speaker 1: six years old children. They were like little girls in

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Speaker 1: bathing suits. And I don't know if he was taking

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Speaker 1: these at some public park. I don't know if he

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Speaker 1: was taking me off of social media sites, if some

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Speaker 1: well meeting parent was posting something.

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Speaker 2: Her mind was racing who were these girls? And then

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Speaker 2: she found one particular photo, the photo, the one she'd

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Speaker 2: never be able to unsee.

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Speaker 1: The moment I looked at that photo, I knew something

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Speaker 1: was fucking row.

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Speaker 3: Something was absolutely wrong.

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Speaker 2: Chelsea disclosed what she saw in detail. It's too disturbing

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Speaker 2: to share here, but what she discovered she clearly believed

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Speaker 2: was ce sam or child sexual abuse material with a

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Speaker 2: girl's face cropped out.

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Speaker 1: Everything in me just told me, especially in the context

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Speaker 1: of where this was kept with all of the other images.

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is one hundred percent something he

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Speaker 1: is sexually interested in, and I did not know how

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Speaker 1: to handle it.

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Speaker 2: She was having an out of body experience looking at

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Speaker 2: these photos, but at the same time she was still

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Speaker 2: in her apartment with James on the other side of

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Speaker 2: the door, screaming for his phone back.

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Speaker 3: I'm just like, I can't do that.

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Speaker 1: You threatened me, can't do that, and he can tell.

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Speaker 3: My voice he can tell. And I opened the door

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Speaker 3: and I.

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Speaker 1: Tell him you need to leave. I've seen something. I've

293
00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:17,159
Speaker 1: seen something.

294
00:18:18,160 --> 00:18:20,439
Speaker 2: Scared of him and unsure of what to do next,

295
00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:23,600
Speaker 2: she gave him back the phone. She didn't tell him

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Speaker 2: that she recorded anything, so he left in a rage,

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Speaker 2: and Chelsea quickly locked the door behind him.

298
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Speaker 1: But then he spends the entire drive back, calling over

299
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Speaker 1: and over and over again and yelling and raging and

300
00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,000
Speaker 1: say I'm going to turn you into the police. You

301
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Speaker 1: took something from my phone. What you just did is illegal.

302
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:50,520
Speaker 1: You better delete everything. And I was just like, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm not talking about this. I'm not talking about it.

304
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,800
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about it. And finally I just turned

305
00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:57,359
Speaker 1: my phttle and I tried to sleep.

306
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,159
Speaker 2: She woke up, Her first thought was that picture, the

307
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 2: one with the child's face cropped out.

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Speaker 1: My mind went in a million directions as to why

309
00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,040
Speaker 1: he would have this, but I couldn't identify who the

310
00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 1: kid was. Did someone take this photo and then he

311
00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 1: just somehow found it or did he take it?

312
00:19:20,680 --> 00:19:23,520
Speaker 2: Day after day, the photo was all she could think about.

313
00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:26,639
Speaker 2: She talked with an attorney and described the image, but

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00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 2: he confirmed one of her fears that the image might

315
00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:33,159
Speaker 2: not meet the standards needed for an arrest. It was

316
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:38,879
Speaker 2: right on the edge. A month after the discovery, James

317
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:42,160
Speaker 2: agreed to a joint counseling session. They hadn't seen each

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00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,639
Speaker 2: other or talked since their fight. Chelsea wanted the support

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Speaker 2: of a mandated reporter, and she wanted to confront him

320
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Speaker 2: there in a neutral environment to see if he'd confess

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Speaker 2: to more. On top of all that, she was also

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Speaker 2: trying to understand something that was just incomprehensible.

323
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Speaker 1: This is part of my trauma too. My go to

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Speaker 1: coping mechanism is denial and rationalization, and I think I

325
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Speaker 1: wanted a reason for this not to be what I

326
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:11,640
Speaker 1: thought it was.

327
00:20:12,840 --> 00:20:16,000
Speaker 2: It might sound naive, but part of her still couldn't

328
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,359
Speaker 2: believe this was real. She started by asking James about

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Speaker 2: the photos of his friend's wives.

330
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Speaker 1: And I said, why do you have these? Do you

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Speaker 1: have permission to have these? Did she know and consent

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Speaker 1: to you having these photos? He looked at me and

333
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Speaker 1: he said, I don't need her consent. It's his property.

334
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Speaker 1: He took that photo. It's his property to share with me.

335
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Speaker 1: And I wanted to puke hearing.

336
00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:48,959
Speaker 2: That it was clear that he had thought about this

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00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 2: extensively and that he knew how to operate just under

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Speaker 2: the radar. Finally, at the end of their session, she

339
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 2: asked about the photos of children, and that one photo

340
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Speaker 2: in particular.

341
00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: And so, in the presence of the couple's counselor, I

342
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,719
Speaker 1: pulled out my phone and I showed him that image

343
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:13,520
Speaker 1: and I said, what the fuck is this? When I

344
00:21:13,560 --> 00:21:17,199
Speaker 1: handed the phone to him with the child image, the

345
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:19,919
Speaker 1: tension in that room was just it was wild. You

346
00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 1: saw him immediately start to shake. His hands started shaking.

347
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 1: He immediately said that is not a crime, There is

348
00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:32,920
Speaker 1: no penetration, that is not illegal.

349
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 3: He just kept repeating that.

350
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,800
Speaker 1: He instantly just went into she stole things off of

351
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Speaker 1: my phone.

352
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Speaker 3: I'm going to prosecute her for that.

353
00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 1: And at that point he just said, I'm going to

354
00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: have to go talk to my attorney about your theft

355
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Speaker 1: of information from my phone and.

356
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Speaker 3: He left, just got out and left.

357
00:21:56,119 --> 00:21:59,880
Speaker 2: She sat there stunned. Chelsea and the therapist sat in silence.

358
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,160
Speaker 2: They waited for James's car to leave the parking lot.

359
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:07,439
Speaker 2: Why did he even bother to come that day? Chelsea

360
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 2: has a theory.

361
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,240
Speaker 1: Looking back, I think he was trying to figure out

362
00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:13,840
Speaker 1: what I knew because he knew I found something and

363
00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 1: he didn't know what I knew, And I think he

364
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,120
Speaker 1: was doing this to try to protect himself.

365
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 2: Her relationship with James was over, but it was only

366
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: the beginning of a horrible dilemma for Chelsea. She grappled

367
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,720
Speaker 2: with reporting him to the police, but she was worried

368
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,480
Speaker 2: that she didn't have enough evidence.

369
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: I felt like what I had wasn't going to be enough.

370
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 1: This is right on the cusp, and if I report James,

371
00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:42,280
Speaker 1: what is going to happen to me?

372
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,280
Speaker 2: Chelsea was afraid of James's wealthy, well connected family. She

373
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: was also thinking of the legal threats he made and

374
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 2: the threats about releasing photos of her. But more than that,

375
00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 2: she was afraid to report and have nothing happen at all.

376
00:22:58,119 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 2: It took her back to the way she felt as

377
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 2: a child.

378
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: When I saw these images on James's phone, it took

379
00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: me back to being those children, And it was so

380
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:10,960
Speaker 1: hard not to think.

381
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,240
Speaker 3: About what those children might have been.

382
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: Experiencing if they were being abused. And I can report

383
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: this person to the police, but is anything going to happen?

384
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 1: And can I emotionally handle that? Can I emotionally handle

385
00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 1: having nothing happen as a result of it, because unfortunately,

386
00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: that was the childhood thing that was playing out.

387
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: I understand where Chelsea is coming from. If you've listened

388
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,960
Speaker 2: to season two of Betrayal, you heard Ashley Litton's story

389
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,720
Speaker 2: of how her husband had over one thousand images of

390
00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,160
Speaker 2: se Sam in his hidden folder, but he served less

391
00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,199
Speaker 2: than a year. These cases are wildly under prosecuted and

392
00:23:52,240 --> 00:23:55,679
Speaker 2: with only one image as evidence. Chelsea's concerns were valid,

393
00:23:56,119 --> 00:24:00,480
Speaker 2: or rather realistic, but that didn't change her feeling moral

394
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 2: obligation to the girl in the photo and victims like her.

395
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:10,120
Speaker 1: My biggest priority at that point was protecting this particular

396
00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 1: little girl.

397
00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,119
Speaker 2: She knew if she was going to report James, she

398
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 2: needed professional support to get there.

399
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: I knew I was going to need a lot of therapy,

400
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: and that's how I about Eric.

401
00:24:23,680 --> 00:24:26,439
Speaker 2: Eric was a therapist who checked all the boxes and

402
00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 2: then some. In fact, he'd been a prosecutor on sex

403
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 2: crimes before he went into counseling.

404
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 3: There were no red flags I could have seen there

405
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 3: on paper. He seemed like the perfect therapist, but.

406
00:24:41,240 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 2: She would soon find out he wasn't. Chelsey began working

407
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 2: with a therapist, were going to call Eric, and quickly

408
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,320
Speaker 2: Eric became a big part of her life. She started

409
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 2: seeing him three times a week.

410
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:12,879
Speaker 1: I felt like I was coming into that scenario with

411
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 1: my guts pulled out. It was just like what do

412
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 1: I do with all this?

413
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: She was working up to being able to report her

414
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,199
Speaker 2: ex James, and she needed a safe place like Eric's

415
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,920
Speaker 2: office to process her trauma, starting with her childhood abuse.

416
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 1: Working with Eric, he was able to help me accept

417
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: some of these bigger terms that I was uncomfortable.

418
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 2: With, terms like trafficking and incest.

419
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 1: Like is this the right term? I started seeing Eric

420
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,159
Speaker 1: to have that space to unpack the sexual abuse trauma

421
00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:58,040
Speaker 1: and was just very early stages of unpacking that.

422
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 2: At this time she was haunted by the images she'd

423
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: seen on James's phone. It became all consuming.

424
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: I couldn't close my eyes at night and not see

425
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 1: these children. I just kept fixating on who is this child.

426
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: Because Eric had been a prosecutor, she trusted his perspective,

427
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: and Eric wasn't so sure she should report James. In fact,

428
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: he worried she was taking on too much personal responsibility.

429
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 1: And one thing Eric would tell me all the time was, Chelsea,

430
00:26:32,680 --> 00:26:34,399
Speaker 1: you can't solve this.

431
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 3: You are not batman. You can't figure this out.

432
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 2: Since they broke up, James deleted all of his social media.

433
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 2: She heard through the grapevine he was saying he'd been hacked,

434
00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 2: but Chelsea suspected it could be related to what she

435
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,919
Speaker 2: saw on his phone. She worried that while she waited

436
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: to report him, he could be deleting or destroying evidence,

437
00:26:57,160 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: and Eric helped her understand the pathology of people like James.

438
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 1: Eric would talk to me about these types of individuals,

439
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: these types of predators. He would talk about their behaviors.

440
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 1: His exact quote was, every once in a while they

441
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 1: freak out and purge, but they eventually go back to

442
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: doing it.

443
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 2: After two months of working with Eric, Chelsea felt ready

444
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,800
Speaker 2: to report James. She began to see it as the

445
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:22,640
Speaker 2: only way out.

446
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: I thought that maybe if I could face these things now,

447
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: maybe that would make the nightmares if the kids stop.

448
00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 2: But Eric dug in he still wasn't sure reporting was

449
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: the right decision for Chelsea.

450
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: When I started saying that I really felt like I

451
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 1: needed to turn James in, Eric was encouraging me not to.

452
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 3: Said I needed to let go of the relationship.

453
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,600
Speaker 2: Eric felt like Chelsea wasn't properly grieving and moving on

454
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: from her relationship with James, and that by fixating on

455
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 2: these photos she was trying to stay connected to him. Somehow,

456
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 2: one night it just hit her she knew who the

457
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 2: girl in the photo could be.

458
00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 1: This image that's been haunting me. There's no face, but

459
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: the ages of the right ages.

460
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 2: James did have a friend with two young daughters. Chelsea

461
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,119
Speaker 2: hadn't put those pieces together before, so she did some

462
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:21,160
Speaker 2: internet slew thing.

463
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 3: My tarn faced went on.

464
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: I went on these parents' face with profile and couldn't.

465
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:29,120
Speaker 3: Read what I saw.

466
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: I was like, that's it, It's got to be this kid.

467
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,160
Speaker 1: The ages of the right age. The cabinet tree looks

468
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: the same as like in these photos that are showing up.

469
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: I'm full on Facebook detective at this point, this could

470
00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 1: be that same house, same wall color, same cabinets.

471
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 3: This has got to be it.

472
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 2: James had access to these kids. If this was the

473
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: girl in the photo, reporting him felt more urgent than ever.

474
00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 2: Despite Eric's advice, Chelsea had made up her mind.

475
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:00,520
Speaker 3: And call my lawyer.

476
00:29:00,520 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: I'm like, I got to report this, and the helped

477
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,520
Speaker 1: set up a meeting with a detective in the town

478
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: that James lived who was the head of the Internet

479
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 1: Crimes Against Children's task Force, and we set up a

480
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: meeting through that following Monday.

481
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,160
Speaker 2: After she set the meeting, she went to a regular

482
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: therapy appointment with Eric and she felt empowered.

483
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 1: I remember sitting there with Eric saying, things are going

484
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: to change. I'm going to identify. I'm going to know

485
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: the next time I'm in a room with a person

486
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: like this, I'm going to know, I'm going to know it.

487
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: I'm going to know everything about this person. I'm going

488
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: to be able to pick them out of a room.

489
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 1: And I remember.

490
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 3: Eric was really uncomfortable.

491
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 2: Eric ended her session Early that day, Chelsea planned to

492
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: prepare for the meeting with police in her next therapy session.

493
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,959
Speaker 1: And I remember going to his office and I was hyped,

494
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: like I had my narratives partially written.

495
00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 3: I was like, I'm going to do this.

496
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: But on the day of that therapy session.

497
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,480
Speaker 3: Eric wasn't there. He was never late.

498
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 1: I usually when I pulled in, I would park next

499
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: to his car. The car wasn't there. Ten minutes go by.

500
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the receptionists. They're like, this is really weird.

501
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: We can't get a hold of him.

502
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,760
Speaker 3: And she's calling. She said, the phone's going straight to voicemail.

503
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 3: I don't understand what's happening. They said, We're gonna get

504
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 3: another clinician, just please wait.

505
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 2: This was her last session before she finally went to

506
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:38,080
Speaker 2: the police. She really needed guidance. So another therapist from

507
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:41,200
Speaker 2: the practice agreed to see Chelsea that day and I

508
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 2: was like.

509
00:30:41,560 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 1: Something is wrong. Eric is never late. Our last session

510
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: was kind of weird. I felt like maybe I made

511
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:50,600
Speaker 1: him uncomfortable. And I could tell by the way she

512
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,160
Speaker 1: was responding to me too. She was like, something's not

513
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: right either. I could sense it, and I started telling

514
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: her what happened. I was like, this is what I've

515
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:00,680
Speaker 1: been dealing with. Eric was telling me not to do it,

516
00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: like I needed to like grieve this relationship, that doing

517
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: this was just gonna like let it perpetuate on. I

518
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: wasn't going to need enclosure. She's like, no, you're doing

519
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: the right thing. You're doing the right thing.

520
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 2: After that session, she finally reported James.

521
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: That Monday morning, I got up, I met with the

522
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 1: detective and we had a three hour recorded interview. I

523
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 1: showed him everything, told them the same story that I'm

524
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 1: telling you now.

525
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 3: He was so validating.

526
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: And he said he told me, he's like, this isn't contraband,

527
00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: but it is absolutely wrong, and you were doing absolutely

528
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 1: the right thing by reporting it. But I want to

529
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:47,520
Speaker 1: manage your expectations. There are things I can try to do,

530
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 1: but this by itself isn't enough. And I was like,

531
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: I know, that's why it's taken me so long to

532
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: get here.

533
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: At the end of their meeting, the detective assured her

534
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:04,720
Speaker 2: that they do everything they could. She left the station relieved.

535
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 2: It had been a difficult and draining day, but the

536
00:32:08,760 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: day was far from over.

537
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:15,400
Speaker 1: So I got my car went back home to to

538
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: where I lived. I've been in my house for less

539
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,760
Speaker 1: than fifteen minutes. I've literally locked in the door, gone

540
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: to the bathroom, opened to Lacroix.

541
00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,719
Speaker 2: And then she saw an email come in from her

542
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: therapist's office and.

543
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: It says, I'm receiving this letter because I'm a client

544
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 1: of Erics, and that they were notified that he was

545
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: arrested and that he was immediately terminated, and they were

546
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: reaching out to.

547
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 3: Me to facilitate continued care.

548
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: One of the last things it says is any questions

549
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: related to the status of Eric maybe directed towards and

550
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: they provide a detective's name in the phone number, and

551
00:32:56,200 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh my god, I already knew everything in

552
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 1: my body knew what had happened.

553
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 2: She went to the court records website and typed in

554
00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 2: Eric's name.

555
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 3: I see possession of child phiography.

556
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 1: I am looking at this mugshot of this person, and

557
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: this is a person I have just spaid the last

558
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 1: several months with.

559
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 3: The most.

560
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: And the most intimate and trusting of a relationship. I

561
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:45,720
Speaker 1: shared things with this person I had never said out

562
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,760
Speaker 1: loud before, and I am looking at a photo of.

563
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 3: His face.

564
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: Being charged with the exact same things that a trumpotize.

565
00:33:59,760 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 2: Me.

566
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: Just sat there staring at the screen, just feeling like

567
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 1: I wanted to tear my skin off, thinking about every

568
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:20,359
Speaker 1: detail I told this person and then thinking that they

569
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: were sexually aroused by these things.

570
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,600
Speaker 2: Then she pulled up the police report and what she

571
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 2: read there was a nightmare.

572
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 1: They seized all of his electronic equipment. They found thousands

573
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:41,160
Speaker 1: of videos and the descriptions.

574
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:42,840
Speaker 3: Are horrific.

575
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 2: She replayed all the things he'd said in sessions with her.

576
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 1: Then thinking about all of those things he told me

577
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: about how a predator would behave.

578
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 3: I'm like he was telling me about his own behavior,

579
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 3: and I arted vomiting.

580
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: The person she'd turned to in this situation would be

581
00:35:04,640 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: a therapist.

582
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 3: I didn't know what to do next.

583
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 1: There were so many layers of things I had to process.

584
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:15,400
Speaker 1: I could not have told this story to a worse person.

585
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 2: For the first time in her life, she took a

586
00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 2: leave of absence from work.

587
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 3: When Eric got arrested.

588
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: I just hit an emotional rock bottom and I realized

589
00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 1: my coping mechanisms don't work anymore.

590
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 3: I can't outperform this.

591
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:37,000
Speaker 2: During this time, mental health was her main priority. She

592
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 2: started group therapy, which proved to be healing.

593
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:44,879
Speaker 1: I needed a room of people to say that's fucked up,

594
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: that shouldn't happen. I needed to see that outrage from

595
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: someone and what we called it in my program this

596
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: reality checking. You need the validation oh like, wow, this

597
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,040
Speaker 1: feels really wrong. This be wrong to you, and people

598
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 1: are like, yeah, that would be really wrong.

599
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 2: While she was working on stabilizing herself, she got an

600
00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,759
Speaker 2: update from the police about her report on James. They

601
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: didn't have enough to arrest him, but the police had

602
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:14,600
Speaker 2: done a knock and.

603
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: Talk when they told him that someone observed a concerning

604
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: image of a child on his phone. He said it

605
00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: didn't come from my phone, and if it did, it

606
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 1: wasn't illegal. And then this is the really telling thing.

607
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,920
Speaker 1: He asked the police officer if they're prosecuting me for

608
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,360
Speaker 1: taking stuff off of his phone.

609
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 2: As far as Chelsea knows, that's the only outcome of

610
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 2: her report.

611
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: So to this day, this guy will stand out there

612
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: and scream that he was in this relationship with this

613
00:36:44,480 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: crazy woman who's trying to ruin his life, and you

614
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 1: know that I was the bad guy.

615
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 2: As for Eric, he pled guilty to distributing child sexual

616
00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 2: abuse material and was sentenced to twelve years in federal present.

617
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: That same year, Chelsea decided to move across the country

618
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 2: and start over.

619
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: Ended up taking about four years before I was able

620
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: to confidently say that these things happened, and not doubt myself,

621
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 1: not blame myself, not think that this is my fault

622
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:22,319
Speaker 1: or my responsibility. And today I'm really proud to say

623
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: I have created the life I've always dreamed of, and

624
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:30,280
Speaker 1: I'm glad that every day now going forward is better

625
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: than any day that I've had before this happened. So

626
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 1: there's a rebirth in it.

627
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question,

628
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:49,840
Speaker 2: why did you choose to tell your story?

629
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 1: The reason I reached out is I was just so

630
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: inspired by the stories that we shared. I was so

631
00:37:55,440 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: inspired listening to other survivors and the ability to retell

632
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 1: this story and release it is so significant, and I

633
00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: hope that someone else hearing this feels empowered to do

634
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:16,960
Speaker 1: the same. These kinds of things only exist in a

635
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:21,120
Speaker 1: world of silence, in denial, and I hope by breaking

636
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: my silence it allows someone else to feel empowered to

637
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 1: break through own whether they got a conviction, whether the

638
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:35,319
Speaker 1: police took it seriously, whether their abuser acknowledged it, whether

639
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:39,120
Speaker 1: their family believed it.

640
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 3: It doesn't make it your fault. It happened and it

641
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 3: was never your fault.

642
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: On the next episode of Betrayal, and this is the

643
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 2: first time I was seeing him in four years, and

644
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 2: I remember it being like I am in big trouble.

645
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal

646
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email

647
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 2: us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod

648
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:17,000
Speaker 2: at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One

649
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 2: way to show support is by subscribing to our show

650
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal.

651
00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 2: Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank

652
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 2: you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production

653
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 2: of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in

654
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 2: partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by

655
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 2: Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me

656
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:44,400
Speaker 2: Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced

657
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 2: by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Melcuriy and Caitlin

658
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,360
Speaker 2: Golden Our. iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck.

659
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 2: Audio editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio, additional editing support

660
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 2: from Nico Aruka and Tanner Robbins. Rails theme composed by

661
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 2: Oliver Bain's music library provided by my Music and For

662
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

663
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your podcasts