1 00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatarrati. This week troubles with 2 00:00:04,880 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: direct air capture. Sometimes it's nice to remind yourself that 3 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: the solution to climate change is simple. Stop adding greenhouse 4 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: gases and draw down the excess sitting in the atmosphere. 5 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,199 Speaker 1: I'm not saying either step is easy, but those are 6 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: the two steps to meet the goals set under the 7 00:00:36,760 --> 00:00:40,600 Speaker 1: Paris Agreement. I know that even trying to meet the 8 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:44,240 Speaker 1: first step of cutting carbon pollution seems hard right now, 9 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:47,600 Speaker 1: with the US reversing any of the good things it's 10 00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: done on climate policy, but that's not a good reason 11 00:00:51,760 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: to stop thinking about how to undo the harm already caused, 12 00:00:56,160 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: because these carbon removal technologies will be needed at scale 13 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: later in the century, perhaps drawing down billions of tons 14 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,279 Speaker 1: of carbon dioxide each year. It could be as large 15 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: as the oil and gas industry is today, and that 16 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: means the work on carbon removal technologies must start now 17 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: and scale up. Today we're going to talk about one 18 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:22,480 Speaker 1: of those carbon removal technologies, direct air capture. It involves 19 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:26,119 Speaker 1: exposing air to some chemicals that have a special affinity 20 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: to carbon dioxide, and once the gas has been captured, 21 00:01:29,760 --> 00:01:33,080 Speaker 1: typically heating the chemicals to release CO two as a 22 00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: pure gas, which can be buried deep underground. The chemical 23 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: is then reused to capture more carbon dioxide. It's an 24 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: energy intensive and expensive process, but the more it scales up, 25 00:01:45,360 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: the cheaper it will become. There are now more than 26 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,000 Speaker 1: one hundred diect air capture startups. The best funded among 27 00:01:52,040 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 1: them is climb Works, which was founded in two thousand 28 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 1: and nine and has raised nearly eight hundred million dollars. 29 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 1: But given recent policy changes in the US and the 30 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: fact that many companies that buy carbon credits from direct 31 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: air capture startups are rethinking how they meet their climate goals, 32 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: climb Works is facing headwinds. The company is laying off 33 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: staff and has come under attack for not delivering on 34 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: its bold ambitions. So this week I've got Yan Woortzbacher, 35 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,639 Speaker 1: co founder and co CEO of clime Works, to answer 36 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,080 Speaker 1: the many questions being raised about the company, its performance 37 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: and its future. Yean, welcome to the show. 38 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:35,640 Speaker 2: Hi, Actually nice speaking to you. 39 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: So you and kristof Keybold founded clime Works in two 40 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,160 Speaker 1: thousand and nine. Since then, the company has raised nearly 41 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: eight hundred million dollars and it's grown in size to 42 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: nearly five hundred people. What would you class as your 43 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 1: three biggest achievements so far? 44 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:49,760 Speaker 2: That's correct. 45 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,680 Speaker 3: We are have been scaling direct air capture since fifteen years. 46 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: What we have done first and foremost, we have shown 47 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,520 Speaker 3: to the world that direct air capture works and can 48 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,880 Speaker 3: be done at scale. When we started Climb Works back 49 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 3: in two thousand and nine, people were asking themselves and us, 50 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 3: is direct air capture something that's actually possible because there 51 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,760 Speaker 3: is so little CO two in the air. Over the time, 52 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:22,519 Speaker 3: we've demonstrated that step by step we are coming out 53 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 3: of a phase of extreme growth and scale up. We've 54 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 3: built our first plant in Switzerland in twenty seventeen with 55 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,280 Speaker 3: a first commercial model, so that was for the very 56 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 3: first time that CO two captured from the air was 57 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 3: sold to a commercial customer. So we sold the CO 58 00:03:36,720 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 3: two to a greenhouse and to Coca Cola to make 59 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:44,840 Speaker 3: bubbles in the water. And we then build our first 60 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,400 Speaker 3: plant in twenty twenty one, and then also the second 61 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 3: plant last year in twenty four in Iceland. Taking CO 62 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 3: two out of the air and combined that would save 63 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 3: in permanent underground storage. So we put CO two underground 64 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 3: together with our Icelandic partners. Bricks where there's you two 65 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 3: mineralizes is turned into stone, and we're selling the capacity 66 00:04:05,560 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: of those plans to our customers. So yeah, all in all, 67 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 3: that's something no one has done before. And we've done 68 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 3: a few big scale up steps and there are more 69 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 3: to come. 70 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: And so let's get to the big news before we 71 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: get into the scale up challenges. You're about to announce 72 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 1: your first major layoffs, eliminating one hundred and six jobs. Why. Yeah. 73 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 3: As I said, we are coming out of a phase 74 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 3: of extreme growth. So we've grown the company. We've doubled 75 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,760 Speaker 3: in size two times in a row over the past 76 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 3: very few years. There was a very intense phase. Now 77 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,840 Speaker 3: we're entering into a next phase where it's important that 78 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 3: we prepare for everything that's coming forward. We need to 79 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 3: consolidate a little bit, We need to look at efficiency. 80 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 3: When we grew the company over the past couple of years, 81 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 3: and a lot of our growth was targeted towards growing 82 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,880 Speaker 3: as fast as possible, building as much as capacity as 83 00:05:08,960 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 3: we can. We've done a lot of that. We've built 84 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 3: the Mammoth planted a ten times larger plant compared to 85 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 3: the Orca plant. Very very quickly now going forward, in 86 00:05:19,040 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: particular in today's market environment, a second aspect that is 87 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 3: very important is focus on profitability. How can we make 88 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,920 Speaker 3: sure that our plans operating at the lowest costs, that 89 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,359 Speaker 3: our company is operating at the lowest cost And so 90 00:05:32,480 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 3: this is a phase that is following now. We are 91 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: we are focusing on cost reduction on our technology development, 92 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 3: and we are continuing to focus on projects, but we 93 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 3: will depending We should talk about our future projects in 94 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,560 Speaker 3: a minute. Some of them might move on on a 95 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 3: slightly slower timeline, which then allows us to integrate latest 96 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:03,719 Speaker 3: technology developments, latest findings, and this will require a little 97 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 3: bit of a different or amended setup of our staffing, 98 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:10,359 Speaker 3: of of the people we have, and this unfortunately requires 99 00:06:10,440 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 3: us to separate from a certain amount of colleagues that 100 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,479 Speaker 3: have brought us here, which is which is always a 101 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 3: sad thing, but that's that's part of the journey we 102 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 3: are going. 103 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 1: How exactly are the leaops going to be structured? Like 104 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: who are the people who will be affected most and 105 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:29,279 Speaker 1: how do you come to that decision. 106 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 3: It's been a very structured process over the past couple 107 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 3: of weeks, and we are we've looked at the company 108 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 3: across the board. So it's really across the board we 109 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:44,279 Speaker 3: are rebalancing our workforce where it comes to project execution 110 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:47,200 Speaker 3: on the one hand, where it comes to technology improvement 111 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:49,840 Speaker 3: on the other hand. So, as I said before, we've 112 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 3: we've done a lot of a lot of technology advances, 113 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: so that this is an area where we're where we're 114 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:58,719 Speaker 3: doubling down where on the project execution side there might 115 00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:01,920 Speaker 3: be a bit less workforce needed going forward. 116 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:04,280 Speaker 1: And so climb Works has a goal of capturing one 117 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: million tons of carbon dioxide from the air each year 118 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: by twenty thirty. As of now, according to the database 119 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: CDR dot FII, you've only delivered some one one hundred 120 00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: tons out of more than three und eighty thousand tons 121 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: that people have given you orders for that companies have 122 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 1: given you orders for. You're cutting about twenty percent of 123 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: year staff. How exactly is that going to help you 124 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: scale up the technology deliver these touns reach profitability? As 125 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:33,040 Speaker 1: you are. 126 00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 3: Saying, first of all, if we compare our order book 127 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 3: with the deliveries, that is a very normal thing that 128 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: there is a large order book compared to a smaller 129 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 3: number of deliveries. Because the whole business model of climb 130 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 3: Works goes along the ways that we are We are 131 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 3: closing contracts off take contracts with our customers which are 132 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:00,640 Speaker 3: then used to finance future plans and then captures you 133 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 3: two with with those plants. Maybe the second question though 134 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 3: you asked about the connection between our number of stuff 135 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 3: with plant deliveries. So also here again like our our 136 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,720 Speaker 3: reduction stuff it is it is first and foremost a 137 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 3: measure to make us ready for the time going forward 138 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 3: to to be to be more efficient, in particular with 139 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 3: our current operating plants here in Iceland, there are no 140 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 3: stuff reductions connected in there, so we are continuing to 141 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,240 Speaker 3: produce to to further ramp up the plants, in particular 142 00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 3: the mammath plant. And then as we move forward it 143 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:38,080 Speaker 3: is like there there's always two elements that that we 144 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:40,160 Speaker 3: need to we need to focus on. There is the 145 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 3: fast deployment of plants, but then there's also the technology 146 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 3: optimization and cost optimization and as we are focusing to 147 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 3: take out more costs as we're going forward, and this 148 00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 3: is this is then a key like the key other 149 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,720 Speaker 3: pillar that we need for the sustainable financings. 150 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: Let's take the plan that you do have in order 151 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,960 Speaker 1: and the growth plans you had in place before this 152 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:08,120 Speaker 1: decision was made. You completed ORCA in twenty twenty one, 153 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:11,520 Speaker 1: and it has the capacity to capture four thousand tons 154 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,559 Speaker 1: every year. But your own data shows that it's never 155 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: captured more than one thousand tons in any year. 156 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 3: Why well, let's take a closer look at the data. 157 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 3: So first, first and foremost, we need to distinguish between 158 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,360 Speaker 3: let's say three numbers. The first is the nameplate capacity 159 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: that we've always communicated as four thousand tons, which is 160 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:38,080 Speaker 3: really the maximum capacity the plant could do. Compare it 161 00:09:38,120 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 3: to the top speed of a car. Right, if you 162 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 3: have a top speed of a car, that's not the 163 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 3: speed at which you're driving on average, even if you're 164 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 3: driving on the highway. So then and then you have 165 00:09:50,640 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 3: the actually captured amounts of tons of CO two. And 166 00:09:55,960 --> 00:09:59,040 Speaker 3: then you have the actual CDR delivered, so carbon dixide 167 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: removal delivered to customers, which also accounts for gray emissions 168 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 3: and other losses on the way. So these these three 169 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,400 Speaker 3: numbers need to be looked in altogether. The numbers that 170 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 3: you can see publicly in the database and the certification 171 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:14,280 Speaker 3: database of PURO, which is, by the way, in the 172 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 3: Duk space the only instance so far globally we have 173 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 3: where you can really transparently see what is being produced 174 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 3: and what is done, which is also something you asked 175 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 3: about big achievements. That's something we're quite proud of because 176 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,559 Speaker 3: you can really find it, find it all there. So 177 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 3: those numbers refer to the CDR and not to the 178 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 3: CCC two captured. So that's maybe the first the first difference. 179 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 3: Then the second thing is if you if you look 180 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 3: at the plant, there is there's two things you can 181 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 3: you can compare and you have you have the actual 182 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:49,239 Speaker 3: ability of the plant to deliver to show its performance, 183 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,959 Speaker 3: and then you have the number of tons that is actually. 184 00:10:52,760 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 2: Produced throughout the whole year. 185 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 3: If we look at the tons CO two captured, that 186 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 3: we could a chief with the Orca plant overall over 187 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:06,200 Speaker 3: not a whole year, but over shorter time frames, say 188 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 3: a month, than those numbers are actually much higher. So 189 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: the best month of the Orca plant showed an annualized 190 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 3: capacity of two thy five hundred tons captured, so that 191 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:22,119 Speaker 3: is much closer than this to this name plate capacity. 192 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 3: If we look even at the best week, we would 193 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:27,080 Speaker 3: go up to twenty nine hundred tons. What Orcha is 194 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 3: not yet is not a plant which can consistently deliver 195 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,640 Speaker 3: this performance throughout the whole year. There are several reasons 196 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 3: for it. If you look at the solvent material, for example, 197 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 3: that is used for the plant, that is a one 198 00:11:38,760 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 3: which has been installed in twenty twenty one. It's been 199 00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:44,720 Speaker 3: purchased in twenty nineteen, so the technology of that orbit 200 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 3: material dates back to twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen. In 201 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 3: the meantime, we've made much more developed, much more efficient 202 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 3: orbent materials, up to five times more stable materials. So 203 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 3: it is a material which is actually running in the 204 00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 3: plant for four years, which is even better than we 205 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:03,440 Speaker 3: ever thought. So it has so to say, degraded over 206 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 3: time over four years and it is still working. But 207 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 3: from the start hasn't been the best material we have today. 208 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 3: It has been in there for several years and we 209 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 3: have not decided to substantially invest into that plant to 210 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: squeeze out the last thousand tons, if you say so. 211 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,760 Speaker 1: Analogies are helpful. You know that there's a top speed 212 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: to a car, and a car usually doesn't run at 213 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: top speed, But you also know when you buy a car, 214 00:12:27,760 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 1: you want to be able to run that car at 215 00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 1: the top speed when you want it. Has it ever 216 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:36,480 Speaker 1: run at the name plate capacity of four thousand tons. 217 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 3: So it has run at a capacity of two nine 218 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 3: hundred tons per year, So that is about seventy five 219 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 3: percent of the top speed of the nameplate capacity. If 220 00:12:47,600 --> 00:12:50,439 Speaker 3: we would equip the plant with the latest orbment material, 221 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:53,959 Speaker 3: we would get much closer even to the four thousand tons, 222 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 3: potentially reaching that value. 223 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:02,200 Speaker 1: So experimentation is important. This was your first multi thousand 224 00:13:02,280 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: ton plant. You've tried a few things. Obviously, technology improves, 225 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: that's a good thing. That's one reason because of all 226 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,320 Speaker 1: the order book you started building Mammoth that's supposed to 227 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,680 Speaker 1: have a nimplant capacity again of thirty six thousand tons annually. 228 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: You started operation on the plant, first operations in twenty 229 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: twenty four. How much does it capture today and when 230 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: will it capture thirty six thousand tons each year? 231 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 3: So, as you said, correctly, the Mammoth plant was started 232 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 3: last year and that means we are still fully in 233 00:13:36,920 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 3: the ramp up phase today if we quickly draw the 234 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 3: comparison to ARCA. So for ARCA, we had a ramp 235 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 3: up phase of around three years, which brought them to 236 00:13:45,360 --> 00:13:48,679 Speaker 3: those numbers that we spoke about a minute ago. And 237 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 3: for mammoths, we are in the midst of this ramp 238 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 3: up phase. And what does that mean concretely? It concretely 239 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 3: means that, as we speak, the plant itself, so all 240 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 3: the the process engineering components, also the central plant components 241 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 3: where we get the heat from the geothermal power plant, 242 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: the storage of the CO two, compression of the CEO 243 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 3: two Z two treatment, all of that is fully up 244 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 3: and running and we actually had availabilities of that that 245 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 3: those parts of the plant of more than ninety five percent. 246 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 3: When it comes to the actual modules that captures you 247 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 3: two that contain dissorbent material, we have chosen to take 248 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 3: a step, step by step approach and actually benefit from 249 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 3: the fact that the plant contains modules. So so far 250 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 3: the first eighteen modules out of seventy two modules are 251 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: up and running, so that means we don't have we 252 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:45,560 Speaker 3: don't have the full range of modules installed, and as 253 00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 3: we move through the ramp up phase we will install 254 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 3: more and more of them. We would idly have liked 255 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 3: to be further down the road today, but then if 256 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:56,160 Speaker 3: we compare it to Tuarka if we look at this 257 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 3: three year phase, that is a similar phase that we 258 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 3: currently are, a similar period of time that we currently 259 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 3: assume for the mammoth plant to apply here. 260 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: And so you said you wanted to be further ahead 261 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,720 Speaker 1: than you are. What has held you back? 262 00:15:12,640 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 3: Now, that's a that's a very good question, and there 263 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 3: are there are a few view points. Maybe first and foremost, 264 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 3: from Orca to Mammoth, we obviously incorporated some design improvements, 265 00:15:26,280 --> 00:15:30,080 Speaker 3: some design upgrades and changes on the design, so we 266 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 3: incorporated learnings. However, while it's a second of its kind, 267 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 3: it's not a tenth of its kind. And what we 268 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 3: what we learned during during the first ramp up that 269 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 3: some of these design changes that we made from Orca 270 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 3: to Mammoth required further iterations. So I can give you 271 00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 3: one example, the med to make it tengible at Orca, 272 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 3: we figured out, like one one crucial element of the 273 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 3: plant is is a mechanical element that is actually a 274 00:15:56,720 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 3: door that closes the chambers where we have dissorvent material there. 275 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 3: So we first absorb sew two, then we close the chamber, 276 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 3: heat it up and take out the sew tube. So 277 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 3: that is a mechanical element that needs to travel every 278 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 3: other hour from chamber to chamber and seal it in 279 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 3: ice and snow and storm in the summer, in any weather, 280 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: whether we have and in this element there are just 281 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,120 Speaker 3: one example. There is one sensor that controls the movement 282 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,520 Speaker 3: of the door and that was placed at the position 283 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 3: where it was very hard to maintain. So it created 284 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 3: a lot of overhead to replace it to maintain the sensor. 285 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 3: So we changed that design from Orca to Mammoth to 286 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:40,320 Speaker 3: position it at a different place where it is much 287 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 3: easier accessible. 288 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: Now. 289 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 3: Unfortunately, it turned out that at this new location, and 290 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 3: that is something we hadn't foreseen during the design, the 291 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 3: sensor is much more exposed to steam, and then in 292 00:16:50,320 --> 00:16:53,520 Speaker 3: the winter, steam combined with cold means ice, so we 293 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 3: had a lot of icing there. Sounds like a trivial topic, 294 00:16:57,840 --> 00:16:59,960 Speaker 3: and if you listen to this you might think, Okay, 295 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 3: that sounds easy. Why don't they fix it within a week? 296 00:17:03,040 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 3: The issues if you have several modules you have it's 297 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 3: not one sensor, but it's many, many of these sensors. 298 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 3: If you make changes, you always need to need to 299 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,439 Speaker 3: be aware that if you change something, you might come 300 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 3: up with new findings as it happened this time. So 301 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:19,000 Speaker 3: after finding this, we needed to, like we always need 302 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,159 Speaker 3: to go through a loop of a design upgrade, then 303 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 3: a validation of the new design, and then a rollout. 304 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 3: So you need to combine all of these things. So 305 00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 3: you need to design it, you need to bring it 306 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 3: in the field, make sure that now it works much better, 307 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 3: and then activate the supply chain that you can buy 308 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:34,879 Speaker 3: the new parts, install them, and so on and so on. 309 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 3: And this is one example out of several ones where 310 00:17:38,680 --> 00:17:41,719 Speaker 3: from Orca to Mammoth we made changes, but not all 311 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 3: of these changes only or they didn't only improve what 312 00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 3: they were supposed to improve, but also introduce new challenges. 313 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 2: And this is what we're working on. 314 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of my conversation with Jan 315 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: Wurzbaker after the short break. And hey, if you're enjoying 316 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 1: this episode, so please create and review the show on 317 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Your feedback really matters and helps 318 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:20,080 Speaker 1: new listeners discover the show. Thank you. And so, if 319 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:22,440 Speaker 1: you are to reach your target of one million tons 320 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: of capture every year by twenty thirty, the plant that 321 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: would have made it possible is the Cyprus plant in 322 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: Louisiana now, under former US President Joe Biden, the government 323 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: was ready to offer billions of dollars of support to 324 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: such plants yours and a few others. Of course, you 325 00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: had to do a lot of your own work because 326 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: you need to make the technology work. You needed to 327 00:18:43,880 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: bring in your investment matching dollars. But right now with 328 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: President Trump, it's clear that the administration is pushing back 329 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: on lots and lots of climate policies, specifically when it 330 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,159 Speaker 1: comes to supporting direct air capture. The latest supporting is 331 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: unclear on whether the Trump administration wants to proceed with 332 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: supporting these plants or rescind its support altogether. Would it 333 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,119 Speaker 1: be right that because of this plant and the rapid 334 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: growth that you were anticipating and now that may be 335 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: delayed or canceled, you are having to make these layoffs 336 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: so that you can sustain the funding that you have 337 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,360 Speaker 1: raised so far for a little bit longer and ensure 338 00:19:25,520 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: that a scale up, if not in Louisiana, somewhere else 339 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: could happen. 340 00:19:32,000 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 3: So well, several questions to start with, it is correct 341 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 3: that for the US project, there is currently not a 342 00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:44,680 Speaker 3: one hundred percent certainty how the Department of Energy will 343 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 3: move forward with that project. We are in close exchange 344 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 3: the project moves on, so we are continuing our front 345 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 3: end engineering design together with our EPC partner. But we 346 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 3: are yeah, we have to wait how how the administration 347 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 3: decides to move on with that project. We are prepared 348 00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 3: to move forward with that project. But we also need 349 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,440 Speaker 3: to consider the scenario that there are changes or that 350 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 3: the administration will not move forward with the project. That said, 351 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 3: we well haven't haven't been sitting and waiting in the meantime. 352 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 3: So we do have a pipeline of further sites and 353 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:26,080 Speaker 3: further project opportunities with which we can move forward. 354 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: That is anyway our plan. 355 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 3: So we need we need future further projects beyond the 356 00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 3: Cypress plant. And if there was a change on the 357 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 3: Cypress project, a more fundamental change, we can switch one 358 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 3: of the other projects in the pipeline to the first 359 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 3: priority or to the to the first in the in 360 00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 3: the line. So there are project options in other ones 361 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 3: in North America, that includes Canada, there are options in Europe. 362 00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:53,159 Speaker 3: In Middle East, we have a project development ongoing currently. 363 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:56,159 Speaker 3: So there are several options that we are moving forward with. 364 00:20:56,800 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 3: If we look at the timeline on the other hand, 365 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 3: that's that's what you are as well about. It is 366 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 3: currently clear that independent of any decision made by the administration, 367 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 3: by the Department of Energy, there will be a certain 368 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,960 Speaker 3: delay for sure compared to the original timeline with the 369 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 3: Cyprus plan, because some parts haven't been moved forward during 370 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:22,440 Speaker 3: the last months of n clarity. That is well, that 371 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 3: means there is a delay which is not great on 372 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:27,200 Speaker 3: the one hand, but on the other hand, this is 373 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,119 Speaker 3: also a good opportunity to move forward. This is one 374 00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 3: of the reasons while I spoke before about a bit 375 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 3: of an adjustment of our priorities, and that relates then 376 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 3: also to the certain restructuring we are doing within the 377 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 3: company and these other projects. 378 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: What is the scale of these projects? How do you 379 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 1: prioritize them if Cypruss doesn't come throughe. 380 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 3: So those projects would look at similar sizes of a plant, 381 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:54,439 Speaker 3: so nameplate capacity in the range of two hundred thousand 382 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 3: tons pre yeer plus with certain flexibility. And it's actually 383 00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,760 Speaker 3: there is no a single number one planned right now. 384 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,439 Speaker 3: So there's a there is a development in the Kingdom 385 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 3: of Saudi Arabia where a lot is going on. There's 386 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:13,000 Speaker 3: a lot of interest there there is developments ongoing in 387 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 3: Europe in Canada and we are we are really pushing 388 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 3: all these project developments forward. And that's also kind of 389 00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 3: that's the nature of big infrastructure projects. So in order 390 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 3: to make an infrastructure project materialize, there is a lot 391 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 3: of boxes that need to be ticked and some of 392 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,280 Speaker 3: the boxes you can take early on. Other boxes need 393 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,119 Speaker 3: more time to tick on, and that's why we always 394 00:22:34,240 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 3: do need these portfolios. So there's really a few runner 395 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 3: ups at So it's kind of a bit about about 396 00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 3: a handful of other projects and we'll move We're moving 397 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 3: them forward and depending on where eventually we'll have the 398 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 3: best conditions both in terms of financing, funding, energy costs, 399 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 3: and storage, this is then the one which will be prioritized. 400 00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 1: And so to continue operating. Are you going to have 401 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: to raise money soon? And how much. 402 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,560 Speaker 2: We are raising We are continuing to raise money. 403 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, once once that has happened, we will We were 404 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,960 Speaker 3: happy to announce that, but well, yeah, we're continuing to 405 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 3: raise money. And at the same time, our current efficiency 406 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 3: measures also make sure that we are not like that. 407 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 3: We extend our sustainable funding as of the company as 408 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:28,120 Speaker 3: long as possible. 409 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 1: How long is the current funding going to last. What 410 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 1: is your runway? 411 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we don't publish numbers on our runway currently, 412 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 3: but what I can say is that we are we 413 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,119 Speaker 3: are very stablely financed, and we continue to have very 414 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 3: strong commitment from our existing investors also to move forward 415 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 3: with funding. 416 00:23:47,600 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 1: And one of the things that you have offered, which 417 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,960 Speaker 1: is also a pioneering move, is that anyone could go 418 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: to your website and buy carbon removal credits. I can 419 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 1: go on your website eight hundred pounds and get a 420 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:00,360 Speaker 1: promise from client Works that you will capture one ton 421 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,679 Speaker 1: of COBNACCP for me. How many people have signed up 422 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,879 Speaker 1: to buy carbon removal We have. 423 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 3: A total number between between fifteen and twenty thousand roughly. 424 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: And in the frequently asked questions it says that clim 425 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: Works will deliver on the promise within six years. How 426 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: many tons have you delivered to individuals, not to your 427 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: corporate buyers. 428 00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 3: To individuals so far, we have delivered a bit north 429 00:24:26,480 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 3: of four hundred tons so far. If you go to 430 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 3: the public registry, the pure one we spoke about before, 431 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 3: you will find a lower number at the order of 432 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 3: one hundred and fifty tons. This is due to the 433 00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 3: fact that some of that deliveries have actually happened before 434 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 3: we have started our collaboration with PUREAU, and that was 435 00:24:44,280 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 3: certified by a separate certifier that was DNV. 436 00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: Actually, so it's cool to have a consumer product for 437 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 1: carbon removal, but as you know, in this age, people 438 00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: want to click and then get delivery. I know you 439 00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: warned that it might take six years, but but to 440 00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: some people is an awfully long time. And clearly some 441 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,479 Speaker 1: people have forgotten that there was this fine print at 442 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: all and are going on social media and calling climb 443 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,360 Speaker 1: works a scam. So what do you have to say 444 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,560 Speaker 1: to sort of individuals who want to support this idea 445 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 1: and this technology. 446 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,120 Speaker 3: First of all, I think it's quite clear that clim 447 00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 3: works is not a scam. We are building DIRECTIR capture plans. 448 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,360 Speaker 3: They are operating, they are standing here. Everyone can come 449 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 3: here and look at them. And we have the only 450 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 3: worldwide transparent registry with an independent third party certifier that 451 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 3: showed how many tons are captured. So I think that 452 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 3: that part is a very very easy one. It's operating, 453 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 3: it's working, and a third party is looking and counting, 454 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 3: looking at it and counting the tons and The other 455 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,360 Speaker 3: thing is if you have tens of thousands of customers, 456 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,239 Speaker 3: unfortunatelyly there will always be a few ones which are 457 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 3: which are unhappy or as you said, might might not 458 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,640 Speaker 3: be happy with the with the fine print, or haven't 459 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 3: haven't haven't read it. We're doing our best to engage 460 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:04,480 Speaker 3: with them and to answer any any open questions. Also 461 00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 3: always good to get feedback if things were not clear. 462 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 3: We can always work and try and try and improve 463 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 3: this well. 464 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,119 Speaker 1: In the spirit of feedback. When I go to the 465 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: website and I hit by the buy button is high 466 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: up on the page, I follow the steps and I 467 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 1: can make the payment. But to find out that the 468 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 1: delivery will be made in six years, it does not 469 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: show up on any of those steps. I have to 470 00:26:29,359 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 1: go back to the front page, actually go into the 471 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: questions underneath and the frequently asked questions. Go through all 472 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: the questions and find the question that says six years 473 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: to delivery. So you could be making that much easier 474 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: if you had that in the flow of purchasing the 475 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: carbon removal. 476 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 2: Oh God, thanks good feedback. Always go to consider thank you. 477 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: The other criticism that has been lobbed at clime Works 478 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: is that you stay in your sustainable ability report that 479 00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: the company currently produces more emissions in its operations than 480 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: it captures in its machines. Now that's understandable for a 481 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: startup that's scaling up. You will have executives lying around 482 00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: the world to make these deals, whether it's in the 483 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,399 Speaker 1: Middle East or in Canada or in Iceland. You'll have 484 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: emissions from the steel and the cement that will be 485 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: needed to build these plants, from running the chemicals. But 486 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:27,920 Speaker 1: you've been added for fifteen years. Do you see why 487 00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 1: some people are frustrated with the lack of progress. You know, 488 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,399 Speaker 1: they would think a carbon removal company should get to 489 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,439 Speaker 1: the point of at least being fully carbon neutral when 490 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 1: it's operating. 491 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 3: Let's look at other technologies and how long it takes 492 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 3: for them to scale up. If you look at major 493 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 3: technologies like chip technologies or solar PV wind firms, you'll 494 00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 3: find out that's scaling up a completely new technology and 495 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 3: industrialize it and bring it to a scale where it 496 00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 3: is deployed at hundreds of millions or billions of dollars volumes. 497 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 3: That takes typically rather twenty to thirty years than five 498 00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 3: to ten years. That's I think the important part that 499 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,520 Speaker 3: we need to consider here if you speak about own 500 00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,480 Speaker 3: emissions being carbon neutral. I think it's very important to 501 00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:20,320 Speaker 3: distinguish between companies corporate emissions like executives lying around the 502 00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 3: world to a minimum extent, but that's important if you 503 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,879 Speaker 3: want to scale, and then related to our plans before 504 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:30,439 Speaker 3: you mentioned both in one sentence. Everything that is related 505 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 3: to our plans that is accounted for, and that is 506 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 3: actually one reason for the difference between the nameplate capacity 507 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 3: and the actual delivered carbon dixide removal company. Carbon dioxide 508 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 3: remissions are small and an absolute value, So we're talking 509 00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,600 Speaker 3: about a few thousand tons here here per year, So 510 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 3: it is not the number we should be bothered about 511 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 3: because everything we are doing is targeted and only makes 512 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 3: sense if we're scaling it to millions of tons and 513 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 3: eventually billions of tons. We need to make sure that 514 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 3: we focus and set the right priorities once we are 515 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 3: reaching those levels that we will be reaching by twenty thirty. 516 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 3: The corporate co two emissions will not be worth worth 517 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 3: the sentence because they are in the rounding difference of 518 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 3: the whole carbon flowing through the company. 519 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: If you wight when you founded the company in two 520 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: thousand and nine, you were one of less than a 521 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: handful of startups that was doing this. Now, according to 522 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: CDR dot FI, there are one hundred and forty direct 523 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,000 Speaker 1: air capture startups now. Robert Hoagland, who is the co 524 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:40,240 Speaker 1: founder of CDR dot FI, said that he expects that 525 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 1: many of these startups will fail, perhaps this year, perhaps 526 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,880 Speaker 1: next year, given the macro circumstances, given the US pulling 527 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: out of the Paris Agreement, pushing back on climate policy, 528 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 1: making companies that are taking climate action, to stop taking 529 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: climate action, to stop buying carbon credits, to you know, 530 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: not really focus on carbon removal. He fully expects that 531 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: these companies will fail, not all of them, but many 532 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,960 Speaker 1: of them. And he thinks that perhaps for the market 533 00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 1: that is coming, there might be as many as five 534 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,000 Speaker 1: companies with the best technologies that survive. How do you 535 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: ensure that climb works is one of them? 536 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, well that's a very good, very good question. First 537 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,719 Speaker 3: and foremost climb Works knows the industry and the art 538 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 3: of scaling up direct air capture best. We are around 539 00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 3: since fifteen years. We are around five hundred people who 540 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 3: are working on this, and we are by far the 541 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 3: best funded startup and scale up in the area of 542 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 3: direct air capture, and we will continue to be and 543 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:52,400 Speaker 3: we will we will continue to fund and to grow 544 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,239 Speaker 3: at a large scale. That's that's number one. Secondly, as 545 00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:58,800 Speaker 3: we move forward, that's that's very important. We have we 546 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 3: have never stopped at developing technology. Some people have asked us, hey, 547 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 3: you've developed your core technology ten years back, is this 548 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 3: now outdated? 549 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 2: But that's not the case at all. 550 00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 3: As we spoke before, we've invested a lot out of 551 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 3: five hundred people, one hundred and fifty people are working 552 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 3: in R and D. About thirty people our material scientists 553 00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 3: and chemists working on new materials, improving our materials. So 554 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 3: there is a lot of R and D happening. There 555 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:28,400 Speaker 3: is no comparable workforce on direct air capture technology development 556 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 3: in the universe. So nowhere else is that amount of 557 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 3: funds and resources invested into further advancing technology. So we're 558 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 3: doing this. We are moving forward, and we are also 559 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 3: screening the market. So as we move forward, we have 560 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 3: purchased a different technology a different company in the past. 561 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 3: We are looking out for new developments. We have a 562 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 3: very clear picture about everything that is happening out there. 563 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 3: We have a lot of good contact to many players 564 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,720 Speaker 3: in the industry, and we might see going forward also 565 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 3: some consolidation in this in this area, some mergers, some 566 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,400 Speaker 3: amount a activities, and we are ready for this market 567 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 3: that will certainly happen a consolidation. It is impossible to 568 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 3: move forward with one hundred and fifty different companies. That's 569 00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 3: a very natural thing to happen in a new industry. 570 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,480 Speaker 3: Going forward with something like a handful of players is 571 00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 3: something that I that I see very realistic. If you 572 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 3: think of what it takes to scale up direct air 573 00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 3: capture technology or any similar technology, it will require at 574 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,880 Speaker 3: least a billion, if not several billion to scale that up, 575 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 3: and not hundred and fifty players will not be able 576 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 3: to fund that. But we are in a position to 577 00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 3: first develop everything at the forefront in house, but then 578 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 3: also make sure that if there are any new developments, 579 00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 3: let this be new materials, to just give one example, 580 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 3: to have our hands on this enter the right partnerships, 581 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 3: which we are doing as we're speaking. We have several 582 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 3: several partnerships in the areas of solvent materials to make 583 00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 3: sure that client works is always staying at the front. 584 00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 2: Where we are today. 585 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 1: One of the decisions you've made in these fifteen years 586 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,040 Speaker 1: is you have not taken on money from the oil 587 00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,960 Speaker 1: and gas industry, which some other competitors in the direct 588 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:15,960 Speaker 1: air capture space have done. You continue to raise money, 589 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: and we do know that climate tech investing in general 590 00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:21,560 Speaker 1: has become more difficult. It's not just because of Trump. 591 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: There was a peak in twenty twenty one twenty two, 592 00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: and then it's been declining. Funding going specifically to direct 593 00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:32,680 Speaker 1: air capture companies is also falling globally, and more so 594 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: in the US than other places. Do you anticipate changing 595 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: your policy and taking money from an oil and gas 596 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: company who continue to be very profitable and one of 597 00:33:42,680 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: your competitors, carbon Engineering, was sold to an oil company 598 00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: Oxy and is now building a large scale plant as 599 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: a result of having the balance sheet of a large 600 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: oil company. 601 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:53,720 Speaker 2: Look. 602 00:33:53,840 --> 00:33:57,120 Speaker 3: A very simple answer here is the energy industry, and 603 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 3: in particular the oil and gas industry, does definitely have 604 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 3: an important role to play in this domain. We are 605 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 3: speaking about taking billions of tons of CO two out 606 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,719 Speaker 3: of the atmosphere and putting them safely and permanently underground, 607 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,320 Speaker 3: and there is one industry who has done this for 608 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 3: the past one hundred years and more so drilling drilling 609 00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 3: holes in the ground and taking stuff out and drilling 610 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,640 Speaker 3: holes in the ground and putting stuff down is very 611 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 3: similar to this, so that industry will have a role 612 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 3: to play. So far, we've been always looking very generally 613 00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:33,000 Speaker 3: independent of in particular island gas majors. We've been carefully 614 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 3: evaluating whether a strategic investment into climb works makes sense 615 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 3: because by taking in a strategic investor on board, you're 616 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 3: creating great opportunities, but you're also closing other doors. And 617 00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 3: this is an evaluation that we will continue to do 618 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 3: going forward. So there is no reason to exclude anything. 619 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 3: There is no reason to go simply in one direction 620 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,760 Speaker 3: going forward. There will be certainly links with that industry, 621 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,280 Speaker 3: but there is no strict yes or no this decision 622 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 3: in any direction. We need to make sure to figure 623 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 3: out what is needed to scale this industry, which resources 624 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 3: that we have, which partners and players that we have, 625 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 3: and where does it make sense to enter into alliances 626 00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 3: and where does it make sense Does it more make 627 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 3: sense to stay independent. We've answered that in the past 628 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,759 Speaker 3: in the way that staying independent is the more successful path. 629 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that that will always be the case 630 00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 3: in the future. 631 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: Thank you Jan, thank you Action, thank you for listening 632 00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: to zero. And now for the sound of the week. 633 00:35:55,480 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: That's the sound of carbon dioxide leaving soda water. If 634 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: you like this episode, please take a moment to rate 635 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: and review the show on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Share 636 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: this episode with a friend or with someone who likes 637 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 1: science fiction. This episode was produced by Samersadi, Moses Andim 638 00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: and Robert Williams. Bloomberg's Head of podcast is Saige Bauman 639 00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,439 Speaker 1: and Head of Talk is Brendan newnham. Our theme music 640 00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,200 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderly Special thanks to Cocolu, Michelle ma, 641 00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,239 Speaker 1: Brian Kahan and Shwan Wagner. I'm Akshatrati back soon.