1 00:00:00,689 --> 00:00:04,030 Speaker 1: Hi, everybody. Christmas is in the air because December 3rd, 2020. 2 00:00:04,010 --> 00:00:10,140 Speaker 1: And you know what's also in the air? COVID. SARS. 19. 3 00:00:10,140 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: Is that what it was called? I can't even remember. 4 00:00:11,940 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: I think I got that wrong. And I'm glad that 5 00:00:14,260 --> 00:00:16,180 Speaker 1: I got that wrong because it's not something that I 6 00:00:16,739 --> 00:00:18,299 Speaker 1: care to remember in that kind of detail. I'm just 7 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,840 Speaker 1: going to call it the Cove. So we are in 8 00:00:21,900 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: December with the Cove at this point. And we did 9 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,810 Speaker 1: a very fun episode for me, at least, because I'm 10 00:00:26,829 --> 00:00:28,590 Speaker 1: a big Beatles fan. I know Josh is not, but 11 00:00:28,610 --> 00:00:31,260 Speaker 1: he indulges me occasionally. With episodes like this, and this 12 00:00:31,340 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: one is not just on the Beatles. In fact, it 13 00:00:33,580 --> 00:00:35,860 Speaker 1: is on John Lennon and the FBI because he was 14 00:00:35,979 --> 00:00:39,220 Speaker 1: under surveillance by the FBI for a lot of reasons 15 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:42,030 Speaker 1: and had a pretty dodgy relationship here in the United 16 00:00:42,070 --> 00:00:45,089 Speaker 1: States at times. So check out this episode right now. 17 00:00:45,229 --> 00:00:52,949 Speaker 1: I think you'll enjoy it. Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, 18 00:00:53,350 --> 00:00:54,870 Speaker 1: a production of iHeartRadio. 19 00:01:01,180 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark. There's 20 00:01:04,260 --> 00:01:08,420 Speaker 2: Charles W. Chuck Bryan out there. Jerry's here. Special guest Jerry. 21 00:01:08,660 --> 00:01:14,570 Speaker 2: This is Stuff You Should Know, the super subversive edition. 22 00:01:15,390 --> 00:01:15,810 Speaker 1: Yeah. 23 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:23,459 Speaker 2: Which is, I mean, it's subversive, but not coming from 24 00:01:23,500 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 2: who you'd expect. In this case, the subversive people, Chuck, 25 00:01:28,220 --> 00:01:32,300 Speaker 2: are two of the crookedest, Worst Americans to ever take 26 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 2: a breath of life in the United States. 27 00:01:34,970 --> 00:01:37,270 Speaker 1: Yes. Hoover and Nixon, right? 28 00:01:38,410 --> 00:01:44,610 Speaker 2: Yes. Herbert Hoover and Charles J. Nixon. No. Oh, no. 29 00:01:45,150 --> 00:01:48,990 Speaker 2: Not those two. Was it J. Edgar Hoover and Richard Nixon? 30 00:01:49,350 --> 00:01:51,530 Speaker 1: Richard Milhouse, I think is his name. 31 00:01:52,010 --> 00:01:56,250 Speaker 2: Milhouse. That's right. So you picked this one, right? 32 00:01:56,270 --> 00:01:56,830 Speaker 1: Yeah. 33 00:01:58,710 --> 00:02:01,610 Speaker 2: I think we got help from our buddy. Oh, it 34 00:02:02,290 --> 00:02:03,670 Speaker 2: was a Grabster article, right? 35 00:02:03,870 --> 00:02:04,650 Speaker 1: This is a Grabster. 36 00:02:05,250 --> 00:02:07,529 Speaker 2: So why did you choose this. 37 00:02:07,490 --> 00:02:10,290 Speaker 1: One, Chuck? I'm just a Beatles nut. I'm reading a 38 00:02:11,630 --> 00:02:15,630 Speaker 1: massive Beatles book, and I'm always thinking about the Beatles, 39 00:02:15,669 --> 00:02:18,790 Speaker 1: so this isn't something I knew a ton about. So 40 00:02:19,220 --> 00:02:19,850 Speaker 1: now I know more. 41 00:02:20,590 --> 00:02:25,739 Speaker 2: What are you thinking about the Beatles right now? 42 00:02:26,840 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: They could write a song. 43 00:02:29,130 --> 00:02:31,260 Speaker 2: Like they could, like they're really good at writing songs, 44 00:02:31,300 --> 00:02:31,559 Speaker 2: you mean? 45 00:02:31,820 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 1: I think so. I know you're not a Beatles guy, 46 00:02:33,540 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 1: but they're regarded as good songwriters. 47 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:39,019 Speaker 2: Sure. I'm willing to concede that at least. I'm a 48 00:02:39,100 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 2: grown person. I can concede when I'm wrong or when 49 00:02:42,940 --> 00:02:43,820 Speaker 2: I've been bested. 50 00:02:44,190 --> 00:02:46,430 Speaker 1: I think we differ on Yoko Ono though. So that'll be, 51 00:02:46,710 --> 00:02:48,329 Speaker 1: you know, that's where the tables are turned. 52 00:02:48,870 --> 00:02:49,230 Speaker 2: Okay. 53 00:02:50,150 --> 00:02:51,690 Speaker 1: Because you like her singing, isn't that right? 54 00:02:52,770 --> 00:02:55,150 Speaker 2: I appreciate it. I don't know. Like is a pretty 55 00:02:55,169 --> 00:02:58,209 Speaker 2: strong word, but I definitely appreciate it. There's some songs, like, 56 00:02:58,250 --> 00:02:59,570 Speaker 2: have you ever heard I Love You, Earth? 57 00:03:00,750 --> 00:03:01,010 Speaker 1: Sure. 58 00:03:01,370 --> 00:03:03,910 Speaker 2: That's a pretty sweet song. I like her singing on that. 59 00:03:04,070 --> 00:03:09,350 Speaker 2: All right. Have you ever heard her cover of Katy 60 00:03:09,389 --> 00:03:11,370 Speaker 2: Perry's Fireworks? No. 61 00:03:11,550 --> 00:03:12,350 Speaker 1: I bet that's something. 62 00:03:13,090 --> 00:03:16,470 Speaker 2: She did it at... maybe MoMA or The Met or 63 00:03:16,510 --> 00:03:20,310 Speaker 2: something like that. And she's just standing there wailing. She's 64 00:03:20,350 --> 00:03:23,370 Speaker 2: not singing words or anything like that, just wailing. And 65 00:03:23,410 --> 00:03:26,650 Speaker 2: it was her cover of Katy Perry's Firework. And it's 66 00:03:26,770 --> 00:03:29,090 Speaker 2: pretty great to see. I'm sure if you look it 67 00:03:29,130 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 2: up on YouTube. But I appreciate a lot of her stuff. 68 00:03:32,740 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: How about that? 69 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: I appreciate her as a human. And it's always fun 70 00:03:36,160 --> 00:03:41,500 Speaker 1: to look back at performances, live performances with Lynn Enwin. 71 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:44,300 Speaker 1: she would do a full like four or five songs 72 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:46,740 Speaker 1: in the row in the middle of like Madison square 73 00:03:46,780 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: garden concert. And you could kind of see his, his 74 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: backing band just kind of like, Oh boy, I can't 75 00:03:52,220 --> 00:03:54,930 Speaker 1: believe we're doing this. I can't believe she's really doing this. 76 00:03:55,310 --> 00:04:00,490 Speaker 2: Right. Right. Um, and she's actually pretty strongly implicated in 77 00:04:00,530 --> 00:04:04,190 Speaker 2: this whole thing. We're talking about John Lennon, um, being 78 00:04:04,370 --> 00:04:10,560 Speaker 2: pursued and, and surveilled and basically harassed by the FBI. Um, 79 00:04:12,130 --> 00:04:17,029 Speaker 2: in the 1972, actually 1971, 72, I believe, um, for 80 00:04:17,050 --> 00:04:19,910 Speaker 2: a very specific reason. And it was at a time 81 00:04:19,970 --> 00:04:22,409 Speaker 2: when John Lennon and Yoko Ono had just gotten married. 82 00:04:22,430 --> 00:04:25,620 Speaker 2: They got married like two, two, three years before. And, um, 83 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,140 Speaker 2: we're a very famous couple. The Grabster argues that they 84 00:04:29,180 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 2: may have been like the first genuine celebrity activist couple 85 00:04:33,260 --> 00:04:37,420 Speaker 2: who actually used their celebrity as a way to, um, help, 86 00:04:37,660 --> 00:04:41,039 Speaker 2: help influence or help causes that kind of thing. Um, 87 00:04:42,010 --> 00:04:47,350 Speaker 2: And by the time 1971-72 rolled around, Richard Milhouse Nixon 88 00:04:47,810 --> 00:04:51,410 Speaker 2: was actually running for re-election again. And he decided that 89 00:04:51,510 --> 00:04:55,830 Speaker 2: he didn't like people like John Lennon running around conceivably 90 00:04:56,010 --> 00:05:01,159 Speaker 2: swaying the vote, particularly among newly minted voters in the 91 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:02,540 Speaker 2: 18 to 21-year-old block. 92 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, he and Yoko had been contributors to causes, 93 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: working class causes. It's sort of the notion that Lennon 94 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:17,060 Speaker 1: was always known as the working class hero, but of 95 00:05:17,100 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: all the Beatles, he grew up more solidly middle class 96 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: than any of the rest of them. And not to 97 00:05:22,160 --> 00:05:25,550 Speaker 1: say that that was a false persona, but he definitely 98 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,150 Speaker 1: sort of jumped and sort of leaned into that, as 99 00:05:30,230 --> 00:05:34,470 Speaker 1: Noel Brown would say, as far as his persona. And 100 00:05:34,490 --> 00:05:36,070 Speaker 1: I think a lot of people that don't dig deep 101 00:05:36,529 --> 00:05:38,670 Speaker 1: kind of think that John Lennon grew up with a 102 00:05:38,670 --> 00:05:41,510 Speaker 1: very hard scrap of life, They're in Liverpool, which is 103 00:05:41,529 --> 00:05:44,950 Speaker 1: not the case. But as a result of that, he 104 00:05:44,970 --> 00:05:48,290 Speaker 1: championed the working man. He and Yoko contributed to causes. 105 00:05:49,430 --> 00:05:54,849 Speaker 1: He became, along with Yoko, very much pacifist activists. And 106 00:05:54,890 --> 00:05:58,550 Speaker 1: if you're a pacifist activist in the early 70s, you're 107 00:05:58,589 --> 00:06:00,289 Speaker 1: not going to be a big fan of Richard Nixon 108 00:06:00,330 --> 00:06:01,710 Speaker 1: and he's not going to be a big fan of 109 00:06:01,730 --> 00:06:05,090 Speaker 1: you because he was not shy about war. 110 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 2: No, he really wasn't. He'd even campaigned, I think, in 111 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,480 Speaker 2: 68 on ending the Vietnam War and then actually went 112 00:06:12,500 --> 00:06:15,980 Speaker 2: the exact opposite direction with that. There was a lot, 113 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:17,659 Speaker 2: if you were a pacifist, there was a lot to 114 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:20,300 Speaker 2: be upset about in the 60s and early 70s because 115 00:06:20,339 --> 00:06:21,620 Speaker 2: of Vietnam alone, you know? 116 00:06:22,540 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. One of the ways I think that 117 00:06:25,220 --> 00:06:28,039 Speaker 1: got the most press that when people think about John 118 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:31,820 Speaker 1: and Yolka's activism is the bed-ins that they had, that 119 00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:36,020 Speaker 1: is B-E-D-I-N-S, and that is If you don't know what 120 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: those are, that's when you lay around in bed and 121 00:06:38,540 --> 00:06:41,539 Speaker 1: you invite the press to come to your room and 122 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: talk to you while you lay around in bed and 123 00:06:45,260 --> 00:06:48,050 Speaker 1: why you're laying around in bed. And it looked kind 124 00:06:48,060 --> 00:06:50,450 Speaker 1: of ridiculous to a lot of people, especially people on 125 00:06:50,470 --> 00:06:53,570 Speaker 1: the right. But John Lennon's whole kind of point, and 126 00:06:53,589 --> 00:06:55,410 Speaker 1: he was very tongue in cheek, kind of had a 127 00:06:55,430 --> 00:06:57,790 Speaker 1: great sense of humor. But I think it all sort 128 00:06:57,810 --> 00:07:00,169 Speaker 1: of stemmed from that, which is like, hey, all you 129 00:07:00,190 --> 00:07:01,870 Speaker 1: got to do is stay in bed and not go 130 00:07:01,910 --> 00:07:04,090 Speaker 1: and start wars. And this is a pretty ridiculous way 131 00:07:04,130 --> 00:07:05,050 Speaker 1: to drive that point home. 132 00:07:05,580 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. Like, rather than having to, like, go out 133 00:07:08,140 --> 00:07:12,250 Speaker 2: and oppose violence, you could oppose violence just by laying 134 00:07:12,310 --> 00:07:14,410 Speaker 2: around in bed and doing nothing. Letting your hair grow, 135 00:07:14,490 --> 00:07:16,890 Speaker 2: I think, is what they were saying. Sure. Which is 136 00:07:17,070 --> 00:07:20,930 Speaker 2: pretty awesome. And... The thing is, is it's John Lennon and, 137 00:07:20,970 --> 00:07:23,510 Speaker 2: you know, Yoko Ono, and they're sitting around in bed 138 00:07:23,570 --> 00:07:25,710 Speaker 2: with the press in their hotel room. And like that 139 00:07:25,850 --> 00:07:28,190 Speaker 2: in and of itself is getting press. And then if 140 00:07:28,230 --> 00:07:29,670 Speaker 2: you say, well, what is all this about? And you 141 00:07:29,710 --> 00:07:31,370 Speaker 2: read a little further into the article. 142 00:07:32,150 --> 00:07:32,510 Speaker 1: I don't know. 143 00:07:32,570 --> 00:07:34,730 Speaker 2: Maybe it kind of gets you in just the right way. 144 00:07:34,770 --> 00:07:36,830 Speaker 2: And all of a sudden you start thinking that way, too. 145 00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: And to the people who were, you know, running the 146 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 2: whole military industrial complex that I mean, that's a threat, 147 00:07:45,260 --> 00:07:48,380 Speaker 2: even if it's. just a threat of the threat of 148 00:07:48,420 --> 00:07:51,300 Speaker 2: saying like, just don't, you don't even have to oppose war, 149 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:53,780 Speaker 2: just don't do anything. And that opposes war in and 150 00:07:53,860 --> 00:07:56,400 Speaker 2: of itself. And that was like kind of the way 151 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,350 Speaker 2: things were at the time. Like there was a lot of, 152 00:08:00,190 --> 00:08:05,530 Speaker 2: a lot of people in power who were really opposed 153 00:08:05,570 --> 00:08:07,990 Speaker 2: to that kind of thinking, who were opposed to people 154 00:08:08,030 --> 00:08:11,570 Speaker 2: who were opposed to Vietnam or war in general or 155 00:08:11,630 --> 00:08:15,090 Speaker 2: violence of any kind. There was a big opposition to that. 156 00:08:15,110 --> 00:08:17,570 Speaker 2: And the people who were running the show in the 157 00:08:17,630 --> 00:08:21,110 Speaker 2: United States were chief among those people. Like we said, 158 00:08:21,570 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 2: Nixon as president and then running for reelection. Then J. 159 00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 2: Edgar Hoover, who was not shy at all about doing 160 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:31,020 Speaker 2: whatever he needed to to quiet dissent. Like he would 161 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:36,929 Speaker 2: generate dossiers on elected officials, especially ones who were more liberal, 162 00:08:37,370 --> 00:08:40,190 Speaker 2: to basically keep them in line by threatening them with 163 00:08:40,270 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: blackmail or even the threat of blackmail, you know? there 164 00:08:44,040 --> 00:08:46,660 Speaker 2: were plenty of hippies who got their heads cracked in. 165 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:50,100 Speaker 2: There were people who were surveilled. We did an episode 166 00:08:50,140 --> 00:08:54,100 Speaker 2: on the Black Panthers, if you remember. We talked about COINTELPRO, 167 00:08:54,420 --> 00:08:57,870 Speaker 2: the whole program to basically undermine and smear the Black 168 00:08:57,910 --> 00:09:01,589 Speaker 2: Panthers in the public's mind. Like, J. Edgar Hoover was 169 00:09:01,650 --> 00:09:07,290 Speaker 2: a vicious, terrible human being. And he ran the FBI 170 00:09:07,350 --> 00:09:09,580 Speaker 2: for decades and was still running the FBI when they 171 00:09:09,620 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 2: started to target John Lennon. 172 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,599 Speaker 1: Yeah, so to set the stage here of kind of 173 00:09:14,620 --> 00:09:20,130 Speaker 1: how this all worked out was John Lennon had– he 174 00:09:20,150 --> 00:09:21,870 Speaker 1: was able to enter– the whole thing kind of boils 175 00:09:21,890 --> 00:09:24,069 Speaker 1: down to whether or not he would be allowed to 176 00:09:24,110 --> 00:09:26,790 Speaker 1: live in the U.S. or whether or not if he 177 00:09:26,870 --> 00:09:28,670 Speaker 1: was eventually allowed to live in the U.S., if they 178 00:09:28,690 --> 00:09:32,780 Speaker 1: could legally deport him. So he was able to enter 179 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,620 Speaker 1: the U.S. on a work visa in 71. And concurrent 180 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:40,590 Speaker 1: with this, Yoko Ono had a custody battle going on. 181 00:09:41,309 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: She had a daughter from a previous marriage in the 182 00:09:43,220 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: early 70s, and she wasn't going to leave at all. 183 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:50,020 Speaker 1: She was legally there. They did try and deport her. 184 00:09:50,059 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: They didn't know that she had a green card already, 185 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,930 Speaker 1: which was sort of the first foible in this thing. Right. 186 00:09:55,309 --> 00:09:58,650 Speaker 1: But they knew that they had a lot of leverage 187 00:09:58,690 --> 00:10:02,319 Speaker 1: over Lennon because— if they deported him, he would be 188 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:05,100 Speaker 1: without his wife, who was going to stay there. So 189 00:10:05,300 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: they had this leverage. Lennon loved living in New York City. 190 00:10:08,660 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: That's where he wanted to make his permanent home. 191 00:10:11,370 --> 00:10:14,450 Speaker 2: So much so that that was also leverage that they had, too. 192 00:10:14,970 --> 00:10:20,770 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely. And so Nixon's up for reelection in 72. 193 00:10:20,770 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 1: He would go on to win, you know, in a big, 194 00:10:22,500 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: big way against McGovern. But they were, you know, they 195 00:10:26,420 --> 00:10:33,700 Speaker 1: were an organization. They were an administration that was very paranoid. 196 00:10:34,980 --> 00:10:37,860 Speaker 1: They would obviously with Watergate, they showed that they were 197 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:41,059 Speaker 1: willing to do anything to ensure their victory. And that 198 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: included being really worried about people like John Lennon. I 199 00:10:45,070 --> 00:10:47,449 Speaker 1: don't think he was at the top of their list 200 00:10:47,570 --> 00:10:49,929 Speaker 1: of things to worry about. But he was on their 201 00:10:49,990 --> 00:10:52,459 Speaker 1: list thanks to Strom Thurmond, of all people. 202 00:10:53,140 --> 00:10:58,260 Speaker 2: Yeah. So Strom Thurmond, the horrible segregationist senator from what? 203 00:10:58,300 --> 00:11:02,830 Speaker 2: South Carolina, right? He he actually kicked this whole thing 204 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:07,950 Speaker 2: off because I guess he noticed that John Lennon was was, 205 00:11:08,330 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 2: you know, he was a left leaning person. rock star activist. 206 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:15,020 Speaker 2: He seems to have been one of the first people 207 00:11:15,059 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 2: to notice the activism that was developing among John Lennon 208 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:21,510 Speaker 2: and Yoko Ono and to perceive it as a threat 209 00:11:21,550 --> 00:11:28,150 Speaker 2: to the establishment because all those recently enfranchised 18, 19 210 00:11:28,150 --> 00:11:30,670 Speaker 2: and 20 year old voters who hadn't had the right 211 00:11:30,710 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 2: to vote until the 26th Amendment had been passed I 212 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:35,940 Speaker 2: don't remember exactly when it was passed, but it was 213 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:39,690 Speaker 2: between 68 and 72 because 72 is the first election 214 00:11:40,030 --> 00:11:42,870 Speaker 2: those younger kids were going to be able to vote in. 215 00:11:43,490 --> 00:11:47,329 Speaker 2: And he apparently saw Lenin as among a group of 216 00:11:47,390 --> 00:11:50,350 Speaker 2: people who could speak to those kids and sway them 217 00:11:50,390 --> 00:11:53,689 Speaker 2: to the left and potentially unseat Richard Nixon, which it 218 00:11:53,710 --> 00:11:56,010 Speaker 2: would turn out is just a total laugh because Nixon 219 00:11:56,250 --> 00:11:58,890 Speaker 2: beat McGovern in a landslide. But at the time, they 220 00:11:58,910 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: didn't know this, and Richard Nixon wasn't going to take 221 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:05,290 Speaker 2: any chances either. So the note from Strom Thurmond was 222 00:12:05,350 --> 00:12:07,870 Speaker 2: very well received in the Nixon administration. 223 00:12:08,309 --> 00:12:10,690 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think what I want to know is who 224 00:12:10,730 --> 00:12:11,570 Speaker 1: told Strom Thurmond. 225 00:12:12,090 --> 00:12:14,170 Speaker 2: That's what I want to know, too. Because that's the 226 00:12:14,230 --> 00:12:15,490 Speaker 2: biggest mystery here. 227 00:12:15,510 --> 00:12:17,380 Speaker 1: Yeah, I doubt if Strom Thurmond was too hip to 228 00:12:17,460 --> 00:12:20,420 Speaker 1: any of this. But somebody probably got in his ear 229 00:12:20,580 --> 00:12:24,140 Speaker 1: and he sent a note that specifically said they try 230 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,940 Speaker 1: and get him deported as a, quote, strategic countermeasure. 231 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:28,500 Speaker 2: Right. 232 00:12:29,370 --> 00:12:31,209 Speaker 1: And that's really kind of what got the ball rolling. 233 00:12:31,790 --> 00:12:34,030 Speaker 1: We should also mention this other guy, John. I don't 234 00:12:34,050 --> 00:12:35,740 Speaker 1: know if it's Wiener or Weiner in this case. 235 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:37,620 Speaker 2: It's pronounced Wienerslave. 236 00:12:38,420 --> 00:12:38,819 Speaker 1: Oh, it is? 237 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 2: No. Do you remember there was a 30 Rock episode 238 00:12:42,220 --> 00:12:45,580 Speaker 2: where there's like an HR mediator and he's like this 239 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:53,829 Speaker 2: very soft, rosy-cheeked, very calm, mild-mannered man. And Liz Lemon says, well, Mr. Wienerslav. 240 00:12:54,010 --> 00:12:56,630 Speaker 2: And he goes, no, it's pronounced Wienerslave. 241 00:12:57,260 --> 00:12:57,950 Speaker 1: I miss that show. 242 00:12:58,210 --> 00:13:00,290 Speaker 2: That was a really good moment. 243 00:13:00,490 --> 00:13:03,610 Speaker 1: They had such great fun with dumb jokes like that 244 00:13:03,630 --> 00:13:05,130 Speaker 1: and blah, blah, blah. 245 00:13:05,570 --> 00:13:07,530 Speaker 2: Yeah, right. No, that was Arrested Development. 246 00:13:07,750 --> 00:13:09,510 Speaker 1: Oh, that's right. That was Arrested Development. They kind of 247 00:13:09,530 --> 00:13:10,410 Speaker 1: had the same DNA, though. 248 00:13:10,730 --> 00:13:11,270 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 249 00:13:11,610 --> 00:13:16,450 Speaker 1: So Wienerslave was a writer or is a writer and 250 00:13:16,490 --> 00:13:19,750 Speaker 1: historian still, and he is why we know so much 251 00:13:19,790 --> 00:13:22,790 Speaker 1: of this. He was writing a lot about John Lennon, 252 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: writing a lot about the Beatles. he decided to file 253 00:13:27,580 --> 00:13:30,800 Speaker 1: Freedom of Information Act requests to get a lot of 254 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,660 Speaker 1: these documents uncovered over the years and eventually was successful 255 00:13:35,140 --> 00:13:38,170 Speaker 1: in a big dump in 1997 and then in another 256 00:13:38,309 --> 00:13:41,609 Speaker 1: smaller one in 2006. And if it had not been 257 00:13:41,650 --> 00:13:45,990 Speaker 1: for his tenacity, I don't know if anyone else would 258 00:13:46,010 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 1: have picked up this mantle. Because, you know, in the end, 259 00:13:49,580 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: it's not the most interesting story in the world. 260 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:52,980 Speaker 2: This is true. 261 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,219 Speaker 1: I say that in a whisper. It's not like some 262 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:57,900 Speaker 1: huge like, oh, my God, revelations. It's sort of one 263 00:13:57,940 --> 00:14:01,300 Speaker 1: of those things. It's like just another example of the 264 00:14:01,360 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: small things that authoritarians do in this country under, you know, 265 00:14:05,830 --> 00:14:09,250 Speaker 1: in the back rooms and in the whispered rooms of 266 00:14:09,270 --> 00:14:09,870 Speaker 1: the White House. 267 00:14:10,250 --> 00:14:12,190 Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think like that's really true. And 268 00:14:12,210 --> 00:14:15,050 Speaker 2: that's a really good point is that like if you 269 00:14:15,090 --> 00:14:17,110 Speaker 2: just look at it on its face, like, you know, 270 00:14:17,130 --> 00:14:20,500 Speaker 2: the FBI followed around. John Lennon kept tabs on them. 271 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,300 Speaker 2: And like if you read the files, it's really pedestrian, 272 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 2: boring stuff. You might miss like the real story here. 273 00:14:27,900 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 2: And the real story here is that a sitting president 274 00:14:29,900 --> 00:14:33,780 Speaker 2: directed the FBI to get dirt that he could use 275 00:14:33,940 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 2: against a political rival, an activist rock star, to help 276 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:40,710 Speaker 2: get him deported. or to figure out what leverage he 277 00:14:40,730 --> 00:14:43,710 Speaker 2: could use against him so that that sitting president could 278 00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:47,110 Speaker 2: get reelected. That's the real story here. And that the 279 00:14:47,230 --> 00:14:53,690 Speaker 2: FBI acted as, you know, this basically a Gestapo-type agency 280 00:14:53,810 --> 00:14:57,250 Speaker 2: on behalf of Nixon. That's the real story that I 281 00:14:57,290 --> 00:14:59,770 Speaker 2: think kind of gets covered up by John Lennon and 282 00:14:59,790 --> 00:15:02,890 Speaker 2: Yoko Ono's celebrity and, you know, the FBI kind of 283 00:15:02,930 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 2: wackily following him around. 284 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:07,060 Speaker 1: Yeah, it is funny because if you look at some 285 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:09,540 Speaker 1: of the files and Some of the reports, like they 286 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: would go to his concerts and undercover agents would go 287 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,470 Speaker 1: to the concerts and report things like, you know, for 288 00:15:16,510 --> 00:15:18,630 Speaker 1: his encore, he's saying, give peace a chance. And we 289 00:15:18,690 --> 00:15:19,830 Speaker 1: all know about that song. 290 00:15:20,210 --> 00:15:20,570 Speaker 2: Right. 291 00:15:20,710 --> 00:15:23,070 Speaker 1: They would take notes on song lyrics and stuff like that. 292 00:15:23,170 --> 00:15:25,970 Speaker 1: So it's all just kind of silly. But yeah, I 293 00:15:26,010 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: definitely agree that it's just an example of the lengths 294 00:15:30,180 --> 00:15:34,640 Speaker 1: that Nixon would go to to be a dirty thief. Yes. 295 00:15:34,660 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: Yes. Well, Chuck, I think we should demonstrate the links 296 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,750 Speaker 2: that we'll go to to bring everyone a message break. 297 00:15:39,790 --> 00:15:40,270 Speaker 2: What do you think? 298 00:15:40,910 --> 00:15:42,330 Speaker 1: By just shutting up for two minutes? 299 00:15:42,690 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 2: Yep. Okay, so the whole thing started eventually, and it 300 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:09,020 Speaker 2: wasn't clear what was going to happen, but the real 301 00:16:09,060 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 2: thing that kicked all of John Lennon's big problems off 302 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:16,180 Speaker 2: was that he was arrested in 1968 in London for 303 00:16:16,260 --> 00:16:20,340 Speaker 2: possession of narcotics. I'm making air quotes you can't see 304 00:16:20,380 --> 00:16:22,580 Speaker 2: because he was busted with some pot, I think maybe 305 00:16:22,660 --> 00:16:28,580 Speaker 2: some hash, and like rolling paraphernalia. Some really BS beef 306 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 2: that they got him on in London. There was some 307 00:16:32,010 --> 00:16:37,590 Speaker 2: true believer, zealous anti-drug cop named Detective Sergeant Norman Pilcher, 308 00:16:39,790 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 2: who was later jailed, actually, for committing perjury as a 309 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 2: police officer. But he was alleged to have planted the 310 00:16:49,620 --> 00:16:51,780 Speaker 2: evidence that may or may not be true. But it 311 00:16:51,820 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 2: was like a rap that Lennon shouldn't have had on 312 00:16:54,380 --> 00:16:57,570 Speaker 2: him or Yoko shouldn't have had on her, that they 313 00:16:57,610 --> 00:17:00,970 Speaker 2: just wanted a high-profile bust. And that happened in 1968, 314 00:17:00,970 --> 00:17:05,510 Speaker 2: and it turned out that that would follow Lenin for 315 00:17:05,910 --> 00:17:08,609 Speaker 2: years to come and really kind of be the fulcrum 316 00:17:09,010 --> 00:17:11,710 Speaker 2: that the U.S. government had on him to try to 317 00:17:12,170 --> 00:17:13,970 Speaker 2: keep him from staying in the U.S. 318 00:17:14,869 --> 00:17:16,970 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, he wasn't even doing heroin at this point, 319 00:17:17,010 --> 00:17:17,430 Speaker 1: I don't think. 320 00:17:17,450 --> 00:17:17,510 Speaker 2: No. 321 00:17:18,830 --> 00:17:21,010 Speaker 1: So they should have waited if they wanted a real case. 322 00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 2: Well, it makes you wonder. I remember hearing in, I think, 323 00:17:25,640 --> 00:17:28,649 Speaker 2: our Black Panther episode, that the FBI was not above 324 00:17:28,710 --> 00:17:34,350 Speaker 2: like addicting activists and dissidents with heroin, like turning them 325 00:17:34,410 --> 00:17:37,330 Speaker 2: on to heroin and then getting them addicted and then just, 326 00:17:37,570 --> 00:17:39,430 Speaker 2: you know, taking them out of the game like that. 327 00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:43,169 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think Lenin never shot heroin. That was his jam. 328 00:17:43,730 --> 00:17:43,990 Speaker 2: Okay. 329 00:17:44,450 --> 00:17:47,879 Speaker 1: So early 71, like I said, he was able to 330 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: enter on a tourist visa. And then when Nixon and 331 00:17:51,880 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: his cronies get going on the deportation, The whole thing 332 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,560 Speaker 1: was based on the fact that he had overstayed his visa. 333 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:01,610 Speaker 1: But along with that, it was very valuable to them 334 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,790 Speaker 1: that he had a drug conviction under his belt at 335 00:18:04,830 --> 00:18:08,910 Speaker 1: that point. So they were surveilling him. They were surveilling 336 00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:11,709 Speaker 1: other artists around the country, too, who they thought were 337 00:18:11,770 --> 00:18:16,690 Speaker 1: subversive and sending messages. Lennon, speaking of getting busted for pot, 338 00:18:16,770 --> 00:18:20,949 Speaker 1: Lennon very famously wrote a song called John Sinclair in 339 00:18:21,010 --> 00:18:23,430 Speaker 1: support and did a tribute, or not tribute, but a 340 00:18:24,710 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: a concert in, I don't know if they were raising money. 341 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:29,260 Speaker 2: Yeah. 342 00:18:29,619 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: Or just awareness. Both. Okay. For John Sinclair, who was 343 00:18:33,619 --> 00:18:36,980 Speaker 1: a poet, he was the manager of the MC5, great, 344 00:18:37,020 --> 00:18:42,780 Speaker 1: great rock band. And he offered two undercover cops a 345 00:18:42,820 --> 00:18:45,660 Speaker 1: couple of joints and went to, and he had already 346 00:18:45,700 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: had a couple of minor pot offenses, but he went 347 00:18:47,420 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: to prison for 10 years for this. And a big 348 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,859 Speaker 1: refrain in that song, John Sinclair said, which is a 349 00:18:53,859 --> 00:18:57,580 Speaker 1: cool song and very rootsy and bluesy, not like very 350 00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,500 Speaker 1: Lennon at all, is 10 for 2, 10 for 2 351 00:19:00,500 --> 00:19:03,010 Speaker 1: is what they keep saying, 10 years for two joints. 352 00:19:03,480 --> 00:19:06,030 Speaker 2: Yeah, that he sold to an undercover cop, right? 353 00:19:06,290 --> 00:19:08,570 Speaker 1: Yeah, but it worked. He actually was sprung from prison 354 00:19:09,010 --> 00:19:10,210 Speaker 1: shortly after this concert. 355 00:19:10,550 --> 00:19:12,930 Speaker 2: Yeah, like two days after. And some people say, I 356 00:19:13,510 --> 00:19:15,570 Speaker 2: think that indicates he was already going to be sprung, 357 00:19:15,609 --> 00:19:19,850 Speaker 2: that the Michigan Supreme Court knew this was a trumped 358 00:19:19,890 --> 00:19:23,500 Speaker 2: up charge. But Other people say, no, the concert surely 359 00:19:23,540 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 2: had some impact. But Sinclair is, so the point about 360 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 2: Sinclair and John Lennon is John Lennon performed the song. 361 00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,689 Speaker 2: He was the headliner at this concert in Ann Arbor. 362 00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:40,030 Speaker 2: And he had been coordinating with other people in John 363 00:19:40,050 --> 00:19:44,030 Speaker 2: Sinclair's orbit that were prominent figures in the new left. 364 00:19:44,609 --> 00:19:47,190 Speaker 2: And at this time in the early 70s, the 60s 365 00:19:47,230 --> 00:19:51,940 Speaker 2: had ended, the, the, it become clear that flower power 366 00:19:51,980 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: hadn't worked. The evil people were still in charge. So 367 00:19:55,400 --> 00:20:01,460 Speaker 2: what was next? Maybe nonviolent coordination and resistance wasn't the 368 00:20:01,500 --> 00:20:06,100 Speaker 2: way to go. Now, Lenin and Yoko were were dedicated pacifists. 369 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,240 Speaker 2: They didn't want anything to do with violence. They didn't 370 00:20:08,280 --> 00:20:10,460 Speaker 2: condone violence. They didn't like violence in any way, shape, 371 00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:14,460 Speaker 2: or form. But there were elements in the new left 372 00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:18,640 Speaker 2: who weren't necessarily convinced that that wasn't the only way 373 00:20:18,740 --> 00:20:22,889 Speaker 2: to change the course of the United States and get 374 00:20:22,970 --> 00:20:27,110 Speaker 2: rid of people like Nixon and his cronies. And so 375 00:20:27,190 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 2: if you're watching this from the outside, like you're J. 376 00:20:28,990 --> 00:20:32,240 Speaker 2: Edgar Hoover and Richard Nixon, you're watching the people on 377 00:20:32,260 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 2: the new left and you don't know which way they're 378 00:20:33,980 --> 00:20:36,940 Speaker 2: going to break. Violent, nonviolent, who knows? But you're treating 379 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,020 Speaker 2: all of them with suspicion. And all of a sudden, 380 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,139 Speaker 2: John Lennon, one of the most recognizable and popular people 381 00:20:42,220 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 2: on the planet, is suddenly hanging out with some of 382 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 2: these new left cats that you don't know which way 383 00:20:47,290 --> 00:20:51,030 Speaker 2: they're going to go, violent or nonviolent. And that really 384 00:20:51,550 --> 00:20:54,389 Speaker 2: drew the attention of the FBI to John Lennon. It 385 00:20:54,450 --> 00:20:59,940 Speaker 2: wasn't necessarily he and Yoko and their pacifist stuff. Some 386 00:20:59,980 --> 00:21:03,750 Speaker 2: people think that it was his involvement with genuine bona 387 00:21:03,770 --> 00:21:12,060 Speaker 2: fide new left activists like John Sinclair or like Bobby Seale. 388 00:21:12,710 --> 00:21:15,340 Speaker 2: Like John Sinclair founded the White Panther Party, which they 389 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,260 Speaker 2: had a 10 point platform like the Black Panthers platform 390 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,929 Speaker 2: and the first platform in the White Panther platform. is 391 00:21:20,950 --> 00:21:24,950 Speaker 2: that it's fully in support of the Black Panther's 10-point platform. 392 00:21:24,990 --> 00:21:27,710 Speaker 2: So he's hanging out with a bunch of people that 393 00:21:28,310 --> 00:21:34,359 Speaker 2: had proven themselves as dyed-in-the-wool foes of the Nixon administration. 394 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,460 Speaker 2: That definitely caught the FBI's attention. 395 00:21:37,119 --> 00:21:40,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and they had big plans. They got together, and 396 00:21:40,340 --> 00:21:45,380 Speaker 1: I think their first meeting was at the Alamookie Township. 397 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:47,179 Speaker 1: That's how I'm going to pronounce it. 398 00:21:47,500 --> 00:21:49,440 Speaker 2: The Scaramoochie Township. In New Jersey. 399 00:21:49,550 --> 00:21:52,880 Speaker 1: In New Jersey. And initially called themselves the Alamookie Tribe, 400 00:21:52,980 --> 00:21:56,580 Speaker 1: but wisely changed their name to the Election Year Strategy 401 00:21:56,619 --> 00:22:00,890 Speaker 1: Information Center. And their plan was in 1972 is to 402 00:22:00,910 --> 00:22:04,169 Speaker 1: host this. And Lennon gave them money. He gave them 403 00:22:04,190 --> 00:22:07,750 Speaker 1: like 75 grand to kind of get going and said, here, 404 00:22:07,810 --> 00:22:09,350 Speaker 1: let's do a bunch of concerts with the help of 405 00:22:09,390 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: John Lennon all across the country in 1972. We can 406 00:22:14,190 --> 00:22:18,460 Speaker 1: have different artists performing, different speakers, you know, like pounding 407 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,660 Speaker 1: home the anti-war message. And then as these concerts roll 408 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,450 Speaker 1: closer and closer to the election, it'll culminate in a 409 00:22:25,470 --> 00:22:28,990 Speaker 1: big protest at the RNC in Miami. This is all 410 00:22:29,030 --> 00:22:32,670 Speaker 1: very legal stuff. It wasn't, they weren't staging riots or anything. 411 00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: These were just concerts, awareness, trying to keep Nixon from winning. 412 00:22:38,420 --> 00:22:42,320 Speaker 1: And Nixon got worried. And he knew that, like you said, 413 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: the influence that someone like John Lennon could have was like, 414 00:22:45,740 --> 00:22:47,899 Speaker 1: he didn't have anyone on his side. There was no 415 00:22:48,940 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: Scott Baio at the time, wooing the youngsters. 416 00:22:51,859 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 2: Bob Blah Blah? 417 00:22:52,780 --> 00:22:55,310 Speaker 1: To the right. Oh, he was Bob Blah Blah, wasn't he? 418 00:22:55,810 --> 00:22:59,590 Speaker 1: That's funny. So this is all going on, and this 419 00:22:59,650 --> 00:23:01,190 Speaker 1: is kind of what ramps up the pressure to get 420 00:23:01,290 --> 00:23:05,450 Speaker 1: Lennon out of there. This custody battle's going on. They 421 00:23:05,470 --> 00:23:10,150 Speaker 1: know about that. And so their first step was to 422 00:23:10,290 --> 00:23:15,090 Speaker 1: instruct immigration and naturalization to try and say, hey, you've 423 00:23:15,150 --> 00:23:17,540 Speaker 1: overstayed your visa. You got to get out of here. 424 00:23:17,780 --> 00:23:19,780 Speaker 1: And Lennon knew this was coming. This was no secret. 425 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,790 Speaker 1: He had gone on TV shows talking about being followed 426 00:23:23,830 --> 00:23:27,510 Speaker 1: by the FBI, having his phone tapped, which we still 427 00:23:27,650 --> 00:23:30,330 Speaker 1: aren't sure if that really happened. I think it says 428 00:23:30,390 --> 00:23:34,310 Speaker 1: officially that there was no legal phone tapping in the 429 00:23:34,410 --> 00:23:38,720 Speaker 1: FBI documents. But throwing that word legal in there just 430 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,379 Speaker 1: kind of makes you think like, well, were there any 431 00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:42,120 Speaker 1: illegal ones that you're not going to tell us about? 432 00:23:42,540 --> 00:23:46,770 Speaker 2: Yeah, I read an interview online. So this is like 433 00:23:46,830 --> 00:23:49,369 Speaker 2: the depths of my depravity. I didn't even listen to 434 00:23:49,410 --> 00:23:51,990 Speaker 2: the interview. I read a Fresh Air interview with John 435 00:23:52,109 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: Weiner about this. And he said that the FBI responded 436 00:23:58,820 --> 00:24:03,400 Speaker 2: and said they found no evidence of illegal wiretapping by 437 00:24:03,460 --> 00:24:07,939 Speaker 2: the FBI or no legal wiretapping by the FBI. So so. 438 00:24:08,570 --> 00:24:11,390 Speaker 2: whiners like okay does that mean they were doing illegal 439 00:24:11,430 --> 00:24:13,790 Speaker 2: wiretapping or does it mean that they didn't look very 440 00:24:13,830 --> 00:24:16,470 Speaker 2: hard for evidence it doesn't mean that they weren't tapping 441 00:24:16,510 --> 00:24:18,070 Speaker 2: his phone is what he's saying. 442 00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:22,670 Speaker 1: Right uh it at least made Lennon paranoid enough yeah 443 00:24:22,690 --> 00:24:25,260 Speaker 1: like he wasn't just not he wasn't not sweating this 444 00:24:25,300 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 1: he was this made him very paranoid um and with 445 00:24:28,580 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: good reason but he took to going next door at 446 00:24:31,340 --> 00:24:35,340 Speaker 1: the uh Dakota building so he would let Lennon use 447 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,369 Speaker 1: his phone in his apartment and to make phone calls, 448 00:24:39,350 --> 00:24:41,510 Speaker 1: and I guess assist with the calls at the same 449 00:24:41,550 --> 00:24:44,939 Speaker 1: time a little bit. And then the FBI said, you 450 00:24:44,980 --> 00:24:49,020 Speaker 1: know what could really help is if we could bust 451 00:24:49,100 --> 00:24:53,240 Speaker 1: them currently for narcotics in the United States. If we 452 00:24:53,260 --> 00:24:56,900 Speaker 1: have an active charge, drug charge against them, and Hoover 453 00:24:56,940 --> 00:25:00,450 Speaker 1: sent it out himself. He said, quote, for info of Bureau, 454 00:25:01,290 --> 00:25:04,369 Speaker 1: NYCPD Narcotics Division is aware of the subject's recent use 455 00:25:04,410 --> 00:25:07,450 Speaker 1: of narcotics, which is like every day, and are attempting 456 00:25:07,510 --> 00:25:10,100 Speaker 1: to obtain enough info to arrest both subject and wife 457 00:25:10,130 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 1: Yoko based on PD investigation. 458 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and by this time, I'm thinking he was using heroin. 459 00:25:15,780 --> 00:25:18,340 Speaker 2: I think that's what they were referencing as his recent use. 460 00:25:19,460 --> 00:25:20,860 Speaker 1: Oh, really? I didn't think that started until later. 461 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,100 Speaker 2: I thought it was the early 70s. 462 00:25:24,020 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 1: I thought it happened during his lost weekend, but I 463 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:27,980 Speaker 1: may be wrong on that. I'm not that far along 464 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:28,310 Speaker 1: in the book yet. 465 00:25:28,320 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 2: I'm going to err toward you then, because I'm just 466 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,790 Speaker 2: surmising here. I'm not the one who has a big 467 00:25:32,830 --> 00:25:39,510 Speaker 2: old book of Beatles history. So I don't know. They 468 00:25:39,530 --> 00:25:41,650 Speaker 2: never actually busted him, right? This was all just like 469 00:25:41,710 --> 00:25:44,110 Speaker 2: they were planning on doing this, but they never needed to? 470 00:25:44,910 --> 00:25:49,150 Speaker 1: I don't think he was arrested in the United States, 471 00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:49,449 Speaker 1: was he? 472 00:25:49,470 --> 00:25:52,170 Speaker 2: Yeah. I didn't know. I didn't get that impression. But 473 00:25:52,230 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 2: it seemed like everything was kind of barreling toward that. 474 00:25:54,619 --> 00:25:56,560 Speaker 2: And even like you were saying, the FBI was like, 475 00:25:56,580 --> 00:26:01,380 Speaker 2: we've let the NYPD know to go do this. So 476 00:26:01,500 --> 00:26:04,669 Speaker 2: and if you take a step back, like, This is 477 00:26:04,730 --> 00:26:07,490 Speaker 2: some heat. This is some pressure that they're putting on 478 00:26:07,540 --> 00:26:09,720 Speaker 2: John and Yoko. They're basically saying, we're going to split 479 00:26:09,740 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 2: you guys up by deporting John because we know that 480 00:26:12,780 --> 00:26:14,659 Speaker 2: Yoko is not going to leave the country because of 481 00:26:14,700 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 2: this custody battle. She can't afford to. So she has 482 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:20,609 Speaker 2: to stay here. So if we threaten deportation to John Lennon, 483 00:26:21,070 --> 00:26:25,770 Speaker 2: it might actually keep him in line. And the FBI 484 00:26:25,850 --> 00:26:29,990 Speaker 2: used the word neutralized, that they were seeking to neutralize Lennon. 485 00:26:31,220 --> 00:26:33,159 Speaker 2: And I guess some people who don't dig very deeply 486 00:26:33,180 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 2: into the story are like, they were going to assassinate 487 00:26:35,380 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: John Lennon. And John Weiner has pointed out like that's 488 00:26:41,100 --> 00:26:43,410 Speaker 2: not at all what they meant. They meant like basically 489 00:26:43,470 --> 00:26:46,370 Speaker 2: making him ineffective, like taking him out of the game 490 00:26:46,490 --> 00:26:50,670 Speaker 2: basically one way or another, but not killing him, just 491 00:26:51,510 --> 00:26:56,780 Speaker 2: convincing him through putting this undue, unfair, undemocratic pressure on 492 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: him to drop his activities with the new left. 493 00:27:00,700 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and by the way, I think he probably was 494 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:06,720 Speaker 1: using heroin in the late 60s and had an on-again-off-again. 495 00:27:06,740 --> 00:27:08,100 Speaker 1: But either way. 496 00:27:08,540 --> 00:27:11,199 Speaker 2: So that makes sense because I did see that guys 497 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 2: like Jerry Rubin and I think Rennie Davis, a couple 498 00:27:17,020 --> 00:27:19,580 Speaker 2: of like the Chicago 7, like they didn't even like 499 00:27:19,619 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: hang out with him because he was doing too many drugs. 500 00:27:22,020 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 2: And I'm guessing that it wasn't like he was smoking 501 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,510 Speaker 2: so much pot we can't even talk with him anymore. 502 00:27:27,850 --> 00:27:29,810 Speaker 2: Like I think he was shooting dope and they weren't. 503 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,220 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, he never shot it. He always smoked it. 504 00:27:32,260 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 2: Or smoking dope. 505 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,730 Speaker 1: But I think he and Yoko were doing heroin actually 506 00:27:36,770 --> 00:27:38,450 Speaker 1: before the Beatles broke up at the end. 507 00:27:38,830 --> 00:27:39,090 Speaker 2: Okay. 508 00:27:39,490 --> 00:27:41,869 Speaker 1: When they were sort of estranged. Not with the Beatles, 509 00:27:41,910 --> 00:27:45,430 Speaker 1: not John and Yoko. But at any rate, like I said, 510 00:27:45,450 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 1: these investigations are going on and they're going to his concerts. 511 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,100 Speaker 1: And they're not even sending back information that really means much. 512 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: They're even saying some of these informants like, you know what, 513 00:27:56,580 --> 00:27:58,800 Speaker 1: they're not even really down with, like the new left 514 00:27:58,859 --> 00:28:02,090 Speaker 1: isn't even down with them. because they think they're just, quote, 515 00:28:02,150 --> 00:28:07,469 Speaker 1: self-aggrandizing rock stars, or there's little chance they'll accomplish anything 516 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,479 Speaker 1: because they spend all their time doing drugs. They're kind 517 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,619 Speaker 1: of sending the message like, you really don't need to 518 00:28:13,660 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: worry so much about John Lennon. He's not much of 519 00:28:15,900 --> 00:28:19,060 Speaker 1: a threat. Kind of one of the funny things about 520 00:28:19,100 --> 00:28:22,850 Speaker 1: this investigation was when, and Lennon was one of the 521 00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:25,250 Speaker 1: most famous people in the world, one of the most 522 00:28:25,290 --> 00:28:28,129 Speaker 1: recognizable faces in the world on planet Earth, along with 523 00:28:28,170 --> 00:28:32,830 Speaker 1: Yoko Ono. And the FBI passes around a sheet with 524 00:28:32,869 --> 00:28:36,750 Speaker 1: Lennon's picture on it so they can recognize him. But 525 00:28:36,790 --> 00:28:38,850 Speaker 1: it was the wrong photo. It was of a different 526 00:28:38,970 --> 00:28:40,730 Speaker 1: human being. It wasn't even John Lennon. 527 00:28:41,130 --> 00:28:43,969 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a street busker from the West Village 528 00:28:44,060 --> 00:28:45,150 Speaker 2: named David Peel. 529 00:28:45,410 --> 00:28:45,950 Speaker 1: So funny. 530 00:28:46,100 --> 00:28:48,620 Speaker 2: Who had a record that I guess John Lennon helped 531 00:28:48,670 --> 00:28:51,360 Speaker 2: produce or something. He looked vaguely like John Lennon, but 532 00:28:51,380 --> 00:28:55,060 Speaker 2: that was the picture that the FBI passed around to 533 00:28:55,100 --> 00:28:58,940 Speaker 2: the cops of the wrong guy. The FBI also put 534 00:28:59,000 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 2: out an all-points bulletin searching for John Lennon and said 535 00:29:03,340 --> 00:29:07,940 Speaker 2: that he's at the St. Regis at 150 Bank Street. St. 536 00:29:07,980 --> 00:29:09,100 Speaker 1: Regis Landscape Supply? 537 00:29:09,620 --> 00:29:12,500 Speaker 2: That's right. I guess that's what they meant because the St. 538 00:29:12,540 --> 00:29:16,180 Speaker 2: Regis Hotel is on Central Park. And John Lennon was 539 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 2: indeed living on Bank Street at the time, but he 540 00:29:18,420 --> 00:29:21,750 Speaker 2: was at 105 Bank Street. So that all-points bulletin was 541 00:29:22,430 --> 00:29:25,380 Speaker 2: all kinds of wrong. But this is the level of like– 542 00:29:25,970 --> 00:29:30,180 Speaker 2: coppery that the FBI was conducting, you know, trying to 543 00:29:30,220 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 2: get John Lennon. 544 00:29:31,100 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: All right. Well, let's take a break and we'll come 545 00:29:33,180 --> 00:29:36,430 Speaker 1: back and talk a little bit about Lennon's official defense 546 00:29:36,470 --> 00:29:58,300 Speaker 1: right after this. So All right. So John Lennon is 547 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:00,700 Speaker 1: not going to take this lying down. He was he 548 00:30:00,740 --> 00:30:02,890 Speaker 1: was paranoid. He was going on like the Mike Douglas 549 00:30:02,910 --> 00:30:07,670 Speaker 1: show and talking about the FBI coming after him. The 550 00:30:07,710 --> 00:30:10,010 Speaker 1: first thing he did was probably what any really, really 551 00:30:10,050 --> 00:30:12,510 Speaker 1: rich person would do is he hires a top rate 552 00:30:12,810 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: bulldog attorney to try and defend this or at least 553 00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:19,900 Speaker 1: delay this. And this guy's name was Leon Wilds. And 554 00:30:20,020 --> 00:30:21,940 Speaker 1: he really did delay this. He was sort of a 555 00:30:21,980 --> 00:30:25,940 Speaker 1: master at filing these motions. and getting it extended and extended, 556 00:30:26,020 --> 00:30:27,720 Speaker 1: and Lennon was able to stay in the country longer 557 00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: and longer and longer. But he was also kind of 558 00:30:30,260 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 1: instrumental in kind of letting Lennon know that this was 559 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,570 Speaker 1: a real situation that he was involved in. 560 00:30:38,150 --> 00:30:43,330 Speaker 2: Right. The thing is, is if you are a immigration 561 00:30:43,410 --> 00:30:46,790 Speaker 2: prosecutor for the federal government of the United States, you 562 00:30:46,850 --> 00:30:49,910 Speaker 2: know that there is not a ton of resources allocated 563 00:30:50,010 --> 00:30:53,570 Speaker 2: to your division, right? Or traditionally there hasn't been. And 564 00:30:53,690 --> 00:30:58,730 Speaker 2: so customarily, the Justice Department has or I guess INS 565 00:30:58,770 --> 00:31:03,080 Speaker 2: has left it up to each prosecutor to determine how 566 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,700 Speaker 2: hard they want to prosecute the case. And so if 567 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:12,140 Speaker 2: you are a upstanding person who's never posed any sort 568 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,030 Speaker 2: of threat to the United States and maybe you own 569 00:31:15,050 --> 00:31:18,370 Speaker 2: a business or you're a productive member of society, There 570 00:31:18,430 --> 00:31:20,770 Speaker 2: is a chance that the INS is going to look 571 00:31:20,810 --> 00:31:23,570 Speaker 2: the other way and not actually deport you, even if 572 00:31:23,630 --> 00:31:26,850 Speaker 2: you are here illegally. You have overstayed your visa or 573 00:31:26,890 --> 00:31:29,590 Speaker 2: you came to the country illegally. Who knows? And that's 574 00:31:29,630 --> 00:31:33,330 Speaker 2: actually where the Dreamer program came from, DACA. It basically 575 00:31:33,390 --> 00:31:36,890 Speaker 2: said like these particular immigrants were brought here as children 576 00:31:37,430 --> 00:31:41,130 Speaker 2: and they pose no threat. Most of them are going 577 00:31:41,150 --> 00:31:43,230 Speaker 2: to college or college bound or they're in the military. 578 00:31:43,470 --> 00:31:47,610 Speaker 2: So we're going to not deport them. And what what 579 00:31:47,790 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 2: Lennon's lawyer told him was like, all of this is true. 580 00:31:51,820 --> 00:31:53,740 Speaker 2: And yet they're putting the heat on you like I 581 00:31:53,780 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 2: have never seen. This is this is clearly coming down 582 00:31:57,300 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 2: from on high. Like they want to get you out 583 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:03,010 Speaker 2: of the United States. And it's not just this prosecutor. Yeah. 584 00:32:03,030 --> 00:32:05,630 Speaker 1: And the other thing that happens when it comes to 585 00:32:05,650 --> 00:32:09,170 Speaker 1: a case like this is they have to weigh or 586 00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:11,990 Speaker 1: they can be decided basically on the value of that 587 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 1: an immigrant might bring to the U.S. by being an 588 00:32:14,900 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: American or living in the United States. 589 00:32:17,940 --> 00:32:18,740 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. 590 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,780 Speaker 1: And so there was, you know, it's kind of funny 591 00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:23,590 Speaker 1: to look back now and think that there had to 592 00:32:23,620 --> 00:32:25,530 Speaker 1: be a case made that John Lennon brings any kind 593 00:32:25,550 --> 00:32:28,610 Speaker 1: of value. But they did, and there was a series 594 00:32:28,650 --> 00:32:32,969 Speaker 1: of letters written by Bob Dylan and Joan Baez and 595 00:32:33,050 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: Joyce Carol Oates, Leonard Bernstein, John Updike, just a series 596 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,230 Speaker 1: of very famous artists. Mm-hmm. kind of arguing in favor 597 00:32:40,270 --> 00:32:42,450 Speaker 1: of John Lennon being allowed to live here. It was 598 00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:47,110 Speaker 1: sort of a flood of public outcry, like what little 599 00:32:47,130 --> 00:32:51,989 Speaker 1: was known back then, at least. There's tremendous value to 600 00:32:52,030 --> 00:32:53,590 Speaker 1: letting John Lennon stay in this country. 601 00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:56,860 Speaker 2: Right. And don't forget, John Cage wrote a letter, too. 602 00:32:57,170 --> 00:32:59,020 Speaker 2: And I'm sure it was kind of like, well, you know, 603 00:32:59,150 --> 00:33:01,100 Speaker 2: do you want me to write a letter for you, John? 604 00:33:01,740 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: He's like, yeah, sure. I'm sure that would help a lot, 605 00:33:04,580 --> 00:33:08,100 Speaker 2: John Cage. Because I'm sure no one in the Nixon 606 00:33:08,140 --> 00:33:09,420 Speaker 2: administration has ever heard of you. 607 00:33:10,020 --> 00:33:10,660 Speaker 1: Yeah, probably so. 608 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 2: So the one kind of the upshot, I'm just going 609 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:19,460 Speaker 2: full on using this word now. The upshot of that 610 00:33:19,540 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 2: letter writing campaign was not even just so much to 611 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:27,140 Speaker 2: demonstrate the value of John Lennon remaining in the United States. 612 00:33:27,220 --> 00:33:29,850 Speaker 2: It was if you kick him out, like there's going 613 00:33:29,870 --> 00:33:31,470 Speaker 2: to be a public outcry and you're going to be 614 00:33:31,510 --> 00:33:33,930 Speaker 2: held to account and asked to explain why you guys 615 00:33:34,450 --> 00:33:37,720 Speaker 2: kicked him out. So it did have a bit of 616 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:43,000 Speaker 2: that combined with his his attorney's tenacity. It kept John 617 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 2: Lennon in the country. He was actually never deported, even 618 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:48,260 Speaker 2: though they were he had a he lived for, I think, 619 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,140 Speaker 2: two or three years with us. You have 60 days 620 00:33:51,180 --> 00:33:54,200 Speaker 2: to leave the country order. And his his lawyer kept 621 00:33:54,220 --> 00:33:57,420 Speaker 2: getting it extended and extended and extended. But for three years, 622 00:33:57,460 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: that was the threat that he was living under. And again, 623 00:33:59,780 --> 00:34:02,020 Speaker 2: if he was deported, he would leave without his wife, 624 00:34:02,060 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 2: who had to stay in the country for her own 625 00:34:03,520 --> 00:34:08,500 Speaker 2: custody battle. So that was a lot of strain on him, actually. 626 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,780 Speaker 2: And the worst part about this whole thing is not 627 00:34:13,860 --> 00:34:18,170 Speaker 2: that the FBI did this and that the Nixon administration, 628 00:34:18,210 --> 00:34:20,830 Speaker 2: Singleton Mounder, that it all came down to Strom Thurmond 629 00:34:20,870 --> 00:34:23,650 Speaker 2: writing this memo to kick things off. It was that 630 00:34:23,710 --> 00:34:27,950 Speaker 2: it worked. They sought to neutralize John Lennon and his 631 00:34:28,030 --> 00:34:31,469 Speaker 2: political activism, and he stopped. He actually did. He gave 632 00:34:31,570 --> 00:34:35,590 Speaker 2: in in August of 1972 by announcing that he was 633 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,780 Speaker 2: not going to take part in that series of concerts 634 00:34:37,820 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: that was going to culminate at the Republican National Convention 635 00:34:41,380 --> 00:34:45,560 Speaker 2: or engage in any kind of activist activities any longer. 636 00:34:45,580 --> 00:34:47,500 Speaker 2: He was just going to go back to being a 637 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:48,339 Speaker 2: musician again. 638 00:34:49,180 --> 00:34:53,930 Speaker 1: Yeah, and by this point, Hoover was dead. L. Patrick 639 00:34:54,090 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: Gray died. was the acting director of the FBI. And 640 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,720 Speaker 1: in that same month, that August, before the election in November, 641 00:35:01,540 --> 00:35:05,110 Speaker 1: the FBI's New York office reported to Gray that he's 642 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:07,930 Speaker 1: no longer going to be involved with these concerts. He's 643 00:35:07,969 --> 00:35:11,069 Speaker 1: no longer with the new left. We don't really need 644 00:35:11,090 --> 00:35:14,330 Speaker 1: to worry about him anymore. We're going to basically settle 645 00:35:14,350 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: this case and close this case after Nixon wins the election. 646 00:35:18,820 --> 00:35:21,340 Speaker 1: And like we said earlier a couple of times by landslide, 647 00:35:21,380 --> 00:35:24,710 Speaker 1: so this is all sort of for naught anyway. Gerald 648 00:35:24,750 --> 00:35:29,370 Speaker 1: Ford ended up overturning Lennon's deportation order in 1975 that 649 00:35:29,390 --> 00:35:32,770 Speaker 1: was already filed. And in 76, he got his green 650 00:35:32,810 --> 00:35:35,430 Speaker 1: card and lived in New York very famously in the 651 00:35:35,450 --> 00:35:38,219 Speaker 1: Dakota for the last four years of his life before 652 00:35:38,260 --> 00:35:42,299 Speaker 1: he was murdered in the street, which I think we 653 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: should do an episode on that at some point, maybe 654 00:35:44,260 --> 00:35:46,399 Speaker 1: in a couple of years once this one is well 655 00:35:46,420 --> 00:35:47,160 Speaker 1: in the rearview mirror. 656 00:35:47,540 --> 00:35:48,060 Speaker 2: You bet. 657 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:49,100 Speaker 1: That'd be a good one. 658 00:35:49,140 --> 00:35:54,420 Speaker 2: I agree. So if John Lennon, apparently before he died, 659 00:35:54,540 --> 00:35:57,820 Speaker 2: he gave a couple interviews and he said of this time, 660 00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,690 Speaker 2: like that it nearly ruined him as an artist. You know, 661 00:36:00,730 --> 00:36:03,950 Speaker 2: like you said, he wasn't just not sweating it. Like 662 00:36:03,989 --> 00:36:06,730 Speaker 2: he sweated it every day. It was a big, hairy 663 00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:09,689 Speaker 2: problem in his life all the time and a source 664 00:36:09,730 --> 00:36:13,180 Speaker 2: of great stress. So in addition to the stress, it 665 00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 2: stole his focus. Like it made him think about that 666 00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:19,920 Speaker 2: and like how much he hated the Nixon administration and 667 00:36:19,960 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: how terrible the FBI was for how they were harassing 668 00:36:23,160 --> 00:36:27,009 Speaker 2: him and possibly tapping his phone. And it just took 669 00:36:27,050 --> 00:36:30,109 Speaker 2: his mind from his art. And he later said that 670 00:36:30,190 --> 00:36:33,950 Speaker 2: it almost ruined him as an artist because the work 671 00:36:33,989 --> 00:36:37,810 Speaker 2: he was producing at the time was journalism, not poetry, 672 00:36:37,890 --> 00:36:40,940 Speaker 2: as he put it, which is a very sad effect. 673 00:36:40,980 --> 00:36:43,500 Speaker 2: But it's a really real world effect when you've got 674 00:36:43,620 --> 00:36:47,720 Speaker 2: something just looming in in the front of your mind 675 00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:50,180 Speaker 2: that you can't get out of your mind, especially if 676 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:55,299 Speaker 2: it's dealing with badness. That has a terrible effect on 677 00:36:55,340 --> 00:36:58,090 Speaker 2: you and your life in general. It can produce an 678 00:36:58,140 --> 00:37:00,089 Speaker 2: entire bad period of your life, you know? 679 00:37:00,830 --> 00:37:03,709 Speaker 1: Yeah. He was like, I had to let Yoko sing 680 00:37:03,730 --> 00:37:04,690 Speaker 1: a lot. 681 00:37:05,890 --> 00:37:07,730 Speaker 2: I have something I have to say. I don't want 682 00:37:07,770 --> 00:37:10,469 Speaker 2: to forget it. In one of the FBI notes at 683 00:37:10,510 --> 00:37:15,580 Speaker 2: that John Sinclair concert, Mm-hmm. The FBI informant reported that 684 00:37:15,700 --> 00:37:19,660 Speaker 2: the song, John Sinclair, was not up to Glennon's usual standards. 685 00:37:20,020 --> 00:37:23,540 Speaker 2: And you get this, Yoko can't even remain on key. 686 00:37:24,420 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 2: That was an FBI informant. 687 00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,980 Speaker 1: Yeah, he had a good ear. But, you know, I 688 00:37:29,020 --> 00:37:31,299 Speaker 1: like the song. It doesn't, like, belong up there with 689 00:37:31,340 --> 00:37:34,380 Speaker 1: his greatest songs. But it was very clear. It was 690 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,980 Speaker 1: sort of in the tradition of protest songs. It's got 691 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,180 Speaker 1: this acoustic slide dobro guitar, and, you know, it's sort of, 692 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,160 Speaker 1: It fits in with the great folk songs of all time, 693 00:37:46,200 --> 00:37:49,180 Speaker 1: I think, but not necessarily one of the great Lennon 694 00:37:49,219 --> 00:37:49,900 Speaker 1: or Beatles songs. 695 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:52,700 Speaker 2: Is it as good as John Henry was a steel 696 00:37:52,739 --> 00:37:53,420 Speaker 2: driving man? 697 00:37:54,260 --> 00:37:55,460 Speaker 1: I think it's better. I like it better. 698 00:37:55,940 --> 00:37:58,379 Speaker 2: Really? Yeah. 699 00:37:58,420 --> 00:38:00,160 Speaker 1: And, you know, like we mentioned earlier, the reason we 700 00:38:00,180 --> 00:38:04,910 Speaker 1: know all this was because of Wiener's reporting. And he 701 00:38:05,050 --> 00:38:08,529 Speaker 1: eventually got those documents released. And there was, you know, 702 00:38:08,570 --> 00:38:11,089 Speaker 1: in his circle, there was a big hubbub, like what's 703 00:38:11,130 --> 00:38:15,040 Speaker 1: going to be in there? what secrets will be revealed. 704 00:38:15,739 --> 00:38:20,180 Speaker 1: And really not much. What was revealed was embarrassment for 705 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,509 Speaker 1: the FBI, embarrassment that they released a picture that wasn't 706 00:38:23,550 --> 00:38:28,150 Speaker 1: even John Lennon, embarrassment that they had a very unethical 707 00:38:29,310 --> 00:38:33,770 Speaker 1: and perhaps even illegal motivation behind trying to get this 708 00:38:33,810 --> 00:38:36,280 Speaker 1: person deported. And it was just egg on the face. 709 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: And that's why they tried to keep it under wraps 710 00:38:38,020 --> 00:38:40,900 Speaker 1: for so many years, hoping that it would not get out. 711 00:38:41,060 --> 00:38:44,450 Speaker 1: Not because there were some big revealing documents, but they 712 00:38:44,469 --> 00:38:45,870 Speaker 1: were just like, can we just sort of act like 713 00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:46,630 Speaker 1: this didn't happen? 714 00:38:47,430 --> 00:38:51,330 Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll classify everything as a national security risk. 715 00:38:51,530 --> 00:38:54,410 Speaker 2: And they did. And actually, that last trove of documents, 716 00:38:54,890 --> 00:38:59,580 Speaker 2: the little handful that trickled out in 2006, was a MI5, 717 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:05,300 Speaker 2: a British Secret Service file on London that the U.S. 718 00:39:05,340 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 2: said if they— it was— And that that last bit of 719 00:39:09,860 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 2: document contained a file from a foreign government that had 720 00:39:13,020 --> 00:39:15,800 Speaker 2: trusted the U.S. to keep it and that it could 721 00:39:15,850 --> 00:39:20,009 Speaker 2: result in economic, diplomatic and military action if they were 722 00:39:20,050 --> 00:39:22,410 Speaker 2: to release it. Like the U.K. was just going to 723 00:39:23,210 --> 00:39:26,330 Speaker 2: bomb the U.S. for releasing their document or their file 724 00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 2: on John Lennon. That's why the FBI held onto it 725 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,420 Speaker 2: until 2006. And then they lost a court case. So 726 00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:34,620 Speaker 2: if there's a hero of the story, it's John Weiner 727 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,819 Speaker 2: or John Weiner. I don't know how he says his 728 00:39:37,860 --> 00:39:40,160 Speaker 2: name and I'm sorry either way, because he was the 729 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,650 Speaker 2: one that really stood up, not just for John Lennon, 730 00:39:42,690 --> 00:39:46,600 Speaker 2: but for The First Amendment, you know, and people's ability 731 00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:49,960 Speaker 2: to be politically active without, you know, the threat of 732 00:39:50,340 --> 00:39:52,960 Speaker 2: being intimidated. So good for him. 733 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 1: Totally. 734 00:39:56,090 --> 00:39:57,410 Speaker 2: You got anything else about this? 735 00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:59,049 Speaker 1: Got nothing else. 736 00:40:00,210 --> 00:40:02,590 Speaker 2: I have an article to direct everybody to is on 737 00:40:02,710 --> 00:40:07,820 Speaker 2: Pop Matters. John Lennon, colon, revolutionary man as political artist. 738 00:40:08,290 --> 00:40:11,920 Speaker 2: And it's about all this, sorry, history, but also just 739 00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,880 Speaker 2: a pretty good critical evaluation of him as an activist. 740 00:40:15,980 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 2: And it's just a really good, interesting article. So check 741 00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:21,820 Speaker 2: it out. And since I said check it out, everybody, 742 00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:22,969 Speaker 2: it's time for Listener Mail. 743 00:40:25,989 --> 00:40:29,489 Speaker 1: This is in reference of our haunted real estate. I 744 00:40:30,469 --> 00:40:32,210 Speaker 1: guess that was a short stuff, right? Had to be. 745 00:40:33,469 --> 00:40:34,250 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was. 746 00:40:35,340 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: Please tell me we didn't do 45 minutes on that. 747 00:40:37,730 --> 00:40:39,570 Speaker 2: We could have. 748 00:40:39,590 --> 00:40:41,589 Speaker 1: Hey, guys. Been a listener for years and finally have 749 00:40:41,610 --> 00:40:43,509 Speaker 1: a good reason to write you. I was listening to 750 00:40:43,550 --> 00:40:45,420 Speaker 1: the episode on whether you're supposed to disclose whether a 751 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,879 Speaker 1: house is haunted or not, and it hit close to home. 752 00:40:48,420 --> 00:40:49,960 Speaker 1: Two years ago, we bought our first house, and I 753 00:40:49,980 --> 00:40:51,840 Speaker 1: made a point to run a report to see if 754 00:40:51,900 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: anyone died in the house. The previous owner had just 755 00:40:54,460 --> 00:40:56,239 Speaker 1: died within a year, but it didn't say where. I 756 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,359 Speaker 1: wasn't really worried about someone actually dying in the house. 757 00:40:59,380 --> 00:41:02,860 Speaker 1: I was really just trying to get a big discount. However, 758 00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: the agent said he didn't know, so no big discount. 759 00:41:06,260 --> 00:41:08,260 Speaker 1: Cut to two years later, I found out from neighbors 760 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:11,790 Speaker 1: and research that the previous owner did not die. However, 761 00:41:12,469 --> 00:41:15,230 Speaker 1: he was a creep who actually had multiple abuse charges. 762 00:41:15,870 --> 00:41:17,850 Speaker 1: In fact, I found an article stating that he had 763 00:41:17,910 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 1: a woman tied up in our basement who he tortured 764 00:41:22,610 --> 00:41:26,819 Speaker 1: until she was luckily able to escape for weeks. That's 765 00:41:26,860 --> 00:41:30,460 Speaker 1: like almost worse than just a regular person dying. 766 00:41:30,500 --> 00:41:33,339 Speaker 2: Is somebody dying of natural causes? It's a million times worse. 767 00:41:33,420 --> 00:41:35,259 Speaker 1: Well, no, I was about to say worse than a murder. 768 00:41:35,989 --> 00:41:37,140 Speaker 1: I guess they're on par. 769 00:41:37,550 --> 00:41:39,250 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, let's debate that at length. 770 00:41:39,530 --> 00:41:43,590 Speaker 1: I don't want to rank awful crimes. Right. But I 771 00:41:43,630 --> 00:41:45,870 Speaker 1: think that might creep me out just as much. Let's 772 00:41:45,910 --> 00:41:49,130 Speaker 1: just say that. Sure. The police searched the house and 773 00:41:49,170 --> 00:41:52,690 Speaker 1: found oodles of weapons. The charges were eventually dropped. Apparently, 774 00:41:52,730 --> 00:41:55,469 Speaker 1: he had money, and he redid the entire basement, which 775 00:41:55,550 --> 00:41:58,230 Speaker 1: is beyond creepy. I don't know if this qualifies as 776 00:41:58,310 --> 00:42:00,790 Speaker 1: info that should have been provided to us at purchase, 777 00:42:01,190 --> 00:42:02,530 Speaker 1: but it sure seems like it, huh? 778 00:42:02,610 --> 00:42:02,780 Speaker 2: Yeah. 779 00:42:03,980 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: That is from Andy, Andy I. Oh, okay. 780 00:42:07,180 --> 00:42:10,569 Speaker 2: Well, thanks a lot, Andy. Is there a heart over 781 00:42:10,620 --> 00:42:11,049 Speaker 2: the I? 782 00:42:12,550 --> 00:42:13,290 Speaker 1: No, but it's typed. 783 00:42:14,090 --> 00:42:17,989 Speaker 2: Is it? It could be Andy McDowell. I think she 784 00:42:18,010 --> 00:42:20,529 Speaker 2: spells her name like that. I could see something like 785 00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:21,950 Speaker 2: this happening to Andy McDowell. 786 00:42:22,190 --> 00:42:23,490 Speaker 1: Sure. I love Andy McDowell. 787 00:42:23,570 --> 00:42:26,050 Speaker 2: Well, whether it's from Andy McDowell or not, we appreciate 788 00:42:26,090 --> 00:42:28,950 Speaker 2: the email. Thank you. And yes, I agree. I think 789 00:42:28,969 --> 00:42:31,509 Speaker 2: the realtor should have disclosed that if you ask me. 790 00:42:31,930 --> 00:42:32,310 Speaker 1: Totally. 791 00:42:33,219 --> 00:42:35,770 Speaker 2: If you want to let us know about some way 792 00:42:35,810 --> 00:42:38,790 Speaker 2: a realtor wronged you or anybody did, we want to 793 00:42:38,810 --> 00:42:41,029 Speaker 2: hear about it. You can send us an email to 794 00:42:41,150 --> 00:42:48,450 Speaker 2: stuffpodcasts at iheartradio.com. Stuff You Should Know is a production 795 00:42:48,510 --> 00:42:52,920 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 796 00:42:53,300 --> 00:42:56,060 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.