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Speaker 1: Mother Knows Death Presents External Exams with Nicole and Jimmy.

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Speaker 2: Hey, everyone, welcome the Mother Knows Death. Back in February,

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Speaker 2: on Mother Knows Death, we talked about a man who

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Speaker 2: was on death row who had the first nitrogen execution,

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Speaker 2: and by all accounts, this execution was botched. It was

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Speaker 2: described as a horror show that lasted twenty two minutes.

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Speaker 2: Apparently he was trying to pull at his restraints and

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Speaker 2: was shaking so bad that he fell off of the

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Speaker 2: gurney and he was visibly breathing for nine to ten

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Speaker 2: minutes before he looked like he wasn't suffering any longer.

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Speaker 2: And I got to thinking, you know, as we progress,

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Speaker 2: we're supposed to be making capital punishment more humane and

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Speaker 2: less torturous to people, and I'm not exactly sure that

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Speaker 2: we're achieving them. So today, on our external exam, we'll

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Speaker 2: be talking to an expert on medieval torture. We are

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Speaker 2: going to learn about medieval torture and punishment, the brutality

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Speaker 2: of different methods, and why it is clear that we

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Speaker 2: no longer use those methods. Today, I would like to

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Speaker 2: introduce you to doctor Larissa Kat Tracy.

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Speaker 1: Hi. Doctor Tracy thanks for being here today. Thanks very

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Speaker 1: much for having me. I'm delighted to be here.

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Speaker 2: Doctor Tracy is a professor of medieval literature at Longwood

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Speaker 2: University in Farmville, Virginia, and she has written publications on

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Speaker 2: torture and brutality in medieval literature, decapitation which is always interesting,

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Speaker 2: castration even more interesting, wounds and wound repair, medieval and

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Speaker 2: early modern murder, to name a few. And she has

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Speaker 2: appeared in several National Geographic and Discovery Channel documentaries. Her

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Speaker 2: work on medievalisms has been published on Salon dot com,

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Speaker 2: Business Insider, Elite, Down, Entertainment Weekly, The Rap, just to

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Speaker 2: name a few. So you've been all over the place

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Speaker 2: and we can't wait to find out what is so

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Speaker 2: interesting about your job. So welcome, and I think the

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Speaker 2: first question I'm going to ask you is just how

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Speaker 2: does how does one get interested in medieval literature.

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Speaker 1: I started very young with an interest in medieval literature.

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Speaker 1: You can blame my parents. From the time I was

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Speaker 1: a child, they read books on fantasy, and they encouraged

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Speaker 1: us to read a lot of fairy tales, books like

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Speaker 1: The Princess and the Goblin. I read Lord of the Rings,

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Speaker 1: I read The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. So

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Speaker 1: that interested me in medieval literature. And then I worked

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Speaker 1: in Shakespeare, and I went and did an undergraduate degree

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Speaker 1: at Florida State in literature, specifically. My medieval lit professors

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Speaker 1: were fantastic, and I found out that there's this whole

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Speaker 1: world of medieval literature that is just complex and interesting

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Speaker 1: and all kinds of things going on. So I developed

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Speaker 1: a degree in that, and I went to Ireland as

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Speaker 1: a foreign student my last year of undergrad and I

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Speaker 1: stayed to do a master's in PhD. And I was

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Speaker 1: working on female saints lives, and that's how I got

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Speaker 1: into torture. I love that.

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Speaker 2: I love hearing when people are in school and they

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Speaker 2: have these teachers that just kind of blow their mind,

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Speaker 2: and it changes the direction a little bit of how

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Speaker 2: you're going because they introduce you to these worlds that

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Speaker 2: you didn't even know existed. Especially when we went to college,

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Speaker 2: there was no internet to just Google search and look

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Speaker 2: up things like that. So that's really cool that you

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Speaker 2: were able to do that. So I, before we get

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Speaker 2: started with that, like what when you went to Ireland,

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Speaker 2: how was it living in Ireland as an American? Just

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Speaker 2: going over there. It's really cool.

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Speaker 1: But like a lot of Americans, my family is of

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Speaker 1: Irish extraction. It is probably the best way to put it.

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Speaker 1: You know. My last name is Tracy, so my dad's

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Speaker 1: family has a serious Irish side to it. So I

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Speaker 1: had all kinds of romantic notions when I went over there.

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Speaker 1: And Ireland's very different than a lot of Americans think.

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Speaker 1: But it's better because I was there in the nineties.

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Speaker 1: I left the US in nineteen ninety five and I

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Speaker 1: arrived kind of wet behind the ears. I was twenty one,

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Speaker 1: and so it was a culture shock, but it was

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Speaker 1: a fascinating time to be in Ireland that it was

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Speaker 1: the time when the troubles were just ending. The Good

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Speaker 1: Friday Agreement was signed while I was there, and having

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Speaker 1: that American view, I learned very quickly that we were wrong,

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Speaker 1: that we were inaccurate, and it was more interesting to

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Speaker 1: me to find out the reality of this very European

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Speaker 1: city in Dublin and in a country that's really integrated

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Speaker 1: into Europe, into the fabric of Europe, and isn't like

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Speaker 1: the stereotype that we see of Saint Patrick's State every year.

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Speaker 1: In fact, if you go to Ireland on Saint Patrick's Day.

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Speaker 1: You may not to actually meet Irish people, you will

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Speaker 1: meet Americans that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, It's just like it's almost a stereotype, right, Oh,

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Speaker 2: it is so when you were when you were a child,

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Speaker 2: used to read all these books, so you've you heard

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Speaker 2: of certain kinds of torture and maybe did had some

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Speaker 2: kind of perception of it. Once you actually learned about

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Speaker 2: the reality from all of your professors and everything, did

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Speaker 2: it change your initial perception on ancient torture and medieval torture.

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Speaker 1: Yes. In fact, one of the things that I do

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Speaker 1: the first day of classes, I asked my students when

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Speaker 1: they hear the word medieval, what did they think, And

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Speaker 1: they often say torture, violence, brutalent, sag And I tell

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Speaker 1: them that's a misconception. And one of the things I

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Speaker 1: learned in my research is that so much of what

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Speaker 1: we think about the Middle Ages is inaccurate and a

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Speaker 1: lot of the way that popular culture presents the Middle Ages,

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Speaker 1: for example, Game of Thrones, it's a medievalism and it's

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Speaker 1: not reality. And a lot of the torture and brutality

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Speaker 1: that shows up in films and media is based on

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Speaker 1: a modern misconception. When I was sixteen, I read the

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Speaker 1: book The Name of the Rose by Umberto Echo because

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Speaker 1: my father said I'd hate it. In fact, my father

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Speaker 1: said I wouldn't understand it. My dad, who was a

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Speaker 1: very educated man, he was a naval aviator, he read

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Speaker 1: the book and he said, I didn't understand it, so

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Speaker 1: I don't think you'll understand it. So you can read it,

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Speaker 1: but I don't think you're gonna understand it. I did.

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Speaker 1: It's a murder mystery, but it's also set in the

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Speaker 1: backdrop of the Papal Inquisition, the inquisitorial powers and process.

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Speaker 1: Bernard Gui is tramping through Europe with a wagon full

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Speaker 1: of torture implements, and he's really this scary figure, but

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Speaker 1: the reality is very different. In fact, I use a

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Speaker 1: quote from umberto Echo's book at the beginning of every

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Speaker 1: chapter of Torture and Brutality, because in many ways umberto

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Speaker 1: Echo is still challenging modern misconceptions. And the more research

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Speaker 1: I did, the more I found that what we think

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Speaker 1: we know about medieval torture is actually a modern conception.

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Speaker 1: That that's interesting, that totally makes sense because we're just

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Speaker 1: trying to think with our twenty twenty four brains, and

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Speaker 1: it's just that happens a lot with history, actually, that

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Speaker 1: things were different in that time and everyone around you

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Speaker 1: was thinking differently as well. So what is the most

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Speaker 1: Can you give us some examples of some different kinds

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Speaker 1: of torture that maybe familiar ones and unfamiliar ones to us,

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Speaker 1: that are that are interesting that you think our listeners

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Speaker 1: will be kind of intrigued by. Well, this is part

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Speaker 1: of the important distinction between torture and punishment in the

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Speaker 1: Middle Ages, because torture was specifically designed to extract a

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Speaker 1: confession before a trial, before a sentence. Punishment is what

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Speaker 1: happens after you've been found guilty. So a lot of

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Speaker 1: the instruments of torture that comes down to us, like

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Speaker 1: torture museums, aren't actually torture. They weren't ever used for torture.

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Speaker 1: They were used for punishment. And in a lot of cases,

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Speaker 1: a lot of what you see is never existed, or

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Speaker 1: it would it exists only in a museum, or it

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Speaker 1: exists after the after the Middle Medieval period. In the

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Speaker 1: early Modern period, they're more Early Modern than they are medieval.

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Speaker 1: So I think one of the most fascinating mythologies to

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Speaker 1: me is the iron Maiden because that was never used

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Speaker 1: the way that we think it was. And the other

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Speaker 1: one is the pair of Anguish. People love that one

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Speaker 1: because the pair of anguish looks like something that would

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Speaker 1: be horrific.

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Speaker 2: All right, tell us about the iron Maiden, then, what

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Speaker 2: do we perceive it to be and what is it actually?

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Speaker 1: The Iron Maiden is kind of a central piece of

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Speaker 1: like every torture museum ever. It is this iron form.

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Speaker 1: It's like a big, huge box that is in the

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Speaker 1: shape of a woman, and the I is the front

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Speaker 1: opens as doors, and inside the doors are spikes or

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Speaker 1: there's spikes that are mechanized and they are going to

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Speaker 1: They are retractable and you can pull them back or

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Speaker 1: you can let them loose, so that the person inside

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Speaker 1: will be impaled with hundreds of nasty spikes and they'll

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Speaker 1: either be impaled so deeply that they'll die straight away

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Speaker 1: or they'll like seguinate from basically death of a thousand cuts.

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Speaker 1: And it's often figured as the maiden opening her arms

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Speaker 1: and embracing the criminal or the person being interrogated and

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Speaker 1: almost not crushing but enclosing them, and then the spikes

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Speaker 1: will do the rest of the nasty work. But they

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Speaker 1: didn't exist.

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Speaker 2: Interesting, so that's just like it's just kind of a

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Speaker 2: myth and the name of a cool band or something

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Speaker 2: exactly well.

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Speaker 1: And the iron maidens that did exist wouldn't have had spikes.

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Speaker 1: They'd had they were like individual containment units. There were

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Speaker 1: iron maidens, and there are a couple of late medieval

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Speaker 1: examples from the fifteenth century, and what they were is

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Speaker 1: somebody would be enclosed as a form of containment for

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Speaker 1: a few hours. It would be like a solitary detention

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Speaker 1: cell for a few hours, and then they'd be released.

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Speaker 1: And it was a form of punishment, not torture, because

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Speaker 1: they weren't trying to get you to consess to anything.

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Speaker 1: At that point, you'd already consessed or you'd already been

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Speaker 1: judged guilty. So your punishment was a sentence of three

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Speaker 1: or four hours walked in this thing, which is hurt, yes, exactly,

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Speaker 1: pretty dramatic, but you'd be let out, and sometimes it

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Speaker 1: was done publicly with the idea of humiliation and chain.

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Speaker 1: It's like a pillory where you put your head in

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Speaker 1: and your hands and you stand in the square and

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Speaker 1: people lob things at you. That's humiliation, That is a

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Speaker 1: punishment designed to humiliate you. It also ruins your reputation,

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Speaker 1: and if you ruin your reputation, then your legal standing

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Speaker 1: is also affected, and that affects any other cases against

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Speaker 1: you in the future. So the iron maiden really wasn't

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Speaker 1: designed to hurt you. It wasn't it was I mean psychologically, sure,

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Speaker 1: but not physically.

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Speaker 2: Were there any forms of torture that were designed to

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Speaker 2: physically hurt someone? And what are they and how horrific

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Speaker 2: were they? And are they still used today in some

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Speaker 2: other countries?

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Speaker 1: Perhaps? Yes. Absolutely. One of the things about medieval torture

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Speaker 1: is that the discussion about applying it starts late in

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Speaker 1: the twelfth century, and it's not until the fourth Latter

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Speaker 1: In Council in twelve fifteen when torture actually gets approved

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Speaker 1: by the Church as an interrogation method. So before twelve fifteen,

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Speaker 1: a king could order torture to a confession that he

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Speaker 1: risked displeasure and unpopularity if he did so. When the

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Speaker 1: Church sanctions it in twelve fifteen and priests are now

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Speaker 1: allowed to use torture, they still had a prohibition against

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Speaker 1: drawing blood. They weren't allowed to torture anybody in a

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Speaker 1: way that would draw blood, so they had to devise

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Speaker 1: torture methods that didn't make you bleed. One of the

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Speaker 1: most commons was this strapado. This trepado was they would

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Speaker 1: tie your hands behind your back and they would pull

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Speaker 1: you off on a rope and suspend you and it

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Speaker 1: would twist your shoulders and dislocate your shoulders. You'd be

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Speaker 1: suspended from a height that was enough to take you

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Speaker 1: off the floor. Another way was the rack. The rack

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Speaker 1: is actually a very medieval and it was very popular,

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Speaker 1: but it's not the complicated frame with all the winches

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Speaker 1: and the wheels that we see in a lot of

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Speaker 1: either modern torture museums. It was really simplest stick until

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Speaker 1: about the fourteenth fifteenth century. The really sophisticated ones take

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Speaker 1: show up in the sixteenth century. So those racks, the

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Speaker 1: basic rack would have been three poles together, a rope

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Speaker 1: thrown over it, and the person would be tied like

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Speaker 1: this and suspended, and weights would be attached to their

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Speaker 1: feet and the rope would be pulled so that they

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Speaker 1: are suspended and pulled up and they'd be left there

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Speaker 1: hanging by their wrists until they confessed. Now that whole

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Speaker 1: point was to dislocate. It doesn't draw blood, and you

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Speaker 1: could erect one anywhere. You don't need a torture chamber.

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Speaker 1: You don't need somebody specifically hired to torture people. You

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Speaker 1: just need a space where you can put up your frame,

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Speaker 1: a rope and somebody to pull and add. Depending on

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Speaker 1: how long they could stand it, they could be there

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Speaker 1: for hours. Now somebody confessed, you had to stop. That

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Speaker 1: was the rule. And if you killed somebody in the

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Speaker 1: act of torture, the judge became liable for that person's death.

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Speaker 1: So torture is actually pretty regulated in the Middle Ages.

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Speaker 1: Once it becomes part of the staple of canon law.

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Speaker 1: They're rules and they're very serious penalties if you reach

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Speaker 1: those rules. That's real.

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Speaker 2: It's it's crazy because they're doing this terrible thing to

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Speaker 2: a person, But as long as they stay within these parameters,

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Speaker 2: then they're they're fine. It's just kind of it reminds me.

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Speaker 2: So I wrote about a case in the Grosser Room

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Speaker 2: a couple of weeks ago called Falanga.

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Speaker 1: Is that how you say it?

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Speaker 2: And so that was I came across this this autopsy

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Speaker 2: case from the Middle East. A more recent autopsy case

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Speaker 2: where the person's feet looked very bruised on the bottom

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Speaker 2: of their feet, and the point of this autopsy was

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Speaker 2: to show that they dissected out the feat, to show

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Speaker 2: that they were true bruises underneath, like severe hemorrhaging underneath

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Speaker 2: of the skin, and.

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Speaker 1: Not just avidity. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: So when when I didn't really know about it, and

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Speaker 2: I read about it and saw that they still do

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Speaker 2: it to this day in certain cultures, especially in the

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Speaker 2: Middle East. But it's a form of torture where they

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Speaker 2: try to get information out of someone and they tie

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Speaker 2: up their feet together and they slap them with like

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Speaker 2: a bamboo, a stick or something, a whip, something like that.

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Speaker 2: And at first it's hard for me to imagine that

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Speaker 2: that would be painful, just because I've never had it

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Speaker 2: done to me. But I think that it seemed from

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Speaker 2: what I was reading, it's like one of the most

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Speaker 2: painful forms of torture.

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Speaker 1: To It could cause all of this damage.

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Speaker 2: And even if you do I mean, you would survive

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Speaker 2: from it most of the time, but it could cause

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Speaker 2: permanent foot damage. And I did come across some other

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Speaker 2: articles written about people who had that and survived it,

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Speaker 2: and they have permanent walking disabilities because of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that is a medieval torture. That was something that

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Speaker 1: was done. It was also done as a means of

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Speaker 1: eliciting confessions in very specific cases. It doesn't draw blood.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you can, if you can assault and

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Speaker 1: beat the soles of the feet, it causes bruising, but

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Speaker 1: it doesn't break the skin depending on what you use.

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Speaker 1: And the whole point was to hobble people. I mean,

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Speaker 1: and you're talking about agrarian cultures where people needed to

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Speaker 1: be able to walk, they needed to be able to stand,

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Speaker 1: and somebody could face serious and permanent disability at that point.

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Speaker 1: They didn't only just feed them on the soles of

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Speaker 1: their feet. Sometimes they would apply burning irons. They would

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Speaker 1: apply hot irons, because when you use a hot iron,

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Speaker 1: it cauterizes like capillaries and you don't bleed. So hot

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Speaker 1: irons were actually a relatively common method of torture in

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Speaker 1: the Middle Ages if it was legal to do it.

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Speaker 1: Torture is illegal in England throughout the Middle Ages. So

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Speaker 1: the papal inquisitors who wanted to interrogate the English knights

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Speaker 1: Templar who were rounded up in thirteen oh seven, they

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Speaker 1: couldn't because they could ask questions, but they couldn't apply

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Speaker 1: torture because it was illegal in England. And they got

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Speaker 1: so frustrated that they're actually letters back to the Pope

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Speaker 1: asking please, can we move these prisoners to France where

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Speaker 1: we can torture them because we're not getting any kind

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Speaker 1: of confessions. And the answer was no, and the English

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Speaker 1: king find Edward the Second finally finally allowed torture to

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Speaker 1: be applied, but only if it didn't cause harm and

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Speaker 1: didn't hurt them, and at that point it was ineffective,

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Speaker 1: and so that the English templars never confessed to anything,

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Speaker 1: which means they were never executed. Mind you, Allegedly, Edward

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Speaker 1: the Second is murdered by being sodomized with a hot

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Speaker 1: poker in thirteen twenty seven. That sounds really lovely.

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Speaker 2: Well, that is something I was going to ask you

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Speaker 2: have in your research, have you found that those torture

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Speaker 2: methods are actually I mean, not that they're right, but

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Speaker 2: they were pretty effective as far as getting people to confess.

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Speaker 1: No. In fact, that's why they stopped using it. Torture

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Speaker 1: actually falls out of use later in this seventeenth century

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Speaker 1: because after the Reformation in fifteen seventeen, torture is being

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Speaker 1: applied far more so. The famous scene in pulp fiction

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Speaker 1: when bing Rain says, I'm going to get Medieval on

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Speaker 1: your ass, he really should have said I'm going to

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Speaker 1: get early modern on your ass, because it doesn't roll

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Speaker 1: off the tongue. Though, because most of the torture methods

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Speaker 1: that we think about come in after the Reformation, when

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Speaker 1: people are being interrogated as heretics, and the sixteenth century

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Speaker 1: is far more brutal than the Middle Ages. The sixteenth

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Speaker 1: century use of torture is horrific, so much so that

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Speaker 1: Michelle de Montana in fifteen says, can we really condemn

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Speaker 1: South American cannibals for eating the dead when we have

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Speaker 1: people ripped alive and torn by dogs and racks and

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Speaker 1: flames and their fellow Christians? I mean, there was this

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Speaker 1: horrific response at the time, but they found that it

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Speaker 1: didn't work because people would confess to anything to avoid torture,

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Speaker 1: or if they were faithful and steadfast enough, they wouldn't

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Speaker 1: confess at all, and ultimately you would end up killing

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Speaker 1: them because they just wouldn't stop, and that becomes a

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Speaker 1: much bigger problem. The first instance of torture in America

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Speaker 1: is actually the sale of witch Trials in sixteen ninety two,

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Speaker 1: that's the first recorded episode of torture, when Giles Corey

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Speaker 1: is pressed to death. They are trying to get him

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Speaker 1: to confess to witchcraft, and he won't because his wife

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Speaker 1: has already confessed and been judged, and if he confesses,

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Speaker 1: his children will lose all their property, in all of

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Speaker 1: their land. It'll go to the authorities. Refuses to confess,

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Speaker 1: and they keep piling more rocks on top of the board,

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Speaker 1: on top of him, and they kill him and it

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Speaker 1: serves no purpose. Yeah, I would.

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Speaker 2: And that's going to bring me to my next question

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Speaker 2: of more modern Well, you're saying so much, I don't

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Speaker 2: even know where to start. The people that get ripped

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Speaker 2: apart by dogs? Is that is that a is that

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Speaker 2: a torture thing? Where that's that's a punishment, that's a punishment.

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Speaker 1: And what he's referring to is actually the Saint Bartholemy's

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Speaker 1: Day massacre of fifteen seventy two, when the Catholic King

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Speaker 1: Charles the Ninth orders the slaughter of all the Protestants

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Speaker 1: in Paris who came for the wedding of his sister

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Speaker 1: Margaux and Anrie, the Prince of Navarre, and he just

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Speaker 1: Charles the ninth was a piece of work, and his mother,

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Speaker 1: Catherine de Medici, was an even worse piece of work.

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Speaker 1: And he orders the Protestants slaughtered, and three thousand Protestants

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Speaker 1: are slaughtered in the streets of Paris over the course

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Speaker 1: of about a week in August of fifteen seventy two.

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Speaker 1: And the Catholics who did it, they sick dogs on them,

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Speaker 1: They sick dogs on them, they stab them, they use knives,

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Speaker 1: the use whatever they could, and they were happy to

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Speaker 1: rip their fellow Christians apart just because Yeah, that's I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's like a typical I feel like you hear these

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Speaker 1: things about religion, and that's why I'm always so skeptical

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Speaker 1: to really join one, because I feel like it's there's

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Speaker 1: a lot of history there that there is, like just

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Speaker 1: think about I always think about this, like in two

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Speaker 1: hundred years from now, what are we going to be

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Speaker 1: thinking about certain things we do well that that's one

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Speaker 1: of my questions actually in the gross when we were

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Speaker 1: talking about circumcision a lot, especially as it relates to

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Speaker 1: like religious rituals. Are there other are there other things

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Speaker 1: that you've come across that that are done in name

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Speaker 1: of health or religion. Because a lot of people think,

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Speaker 1: including myself, that if I had a son, I would

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Speaker 1: never get them circumcised. I think that it's I think

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Speaker 1: that it's torture. I think that it's it's just barbaric

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Speaker 1: at this point. But people have their own opinion on that.

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Speaker 1: But do you have any examples of things like that

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Speaker 1: that were done in the name of religion that besides

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Speaker 1: the one you just said that right? Well, yeah, Circumcision

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Speaker 1: was a very specifically Jewish practice in the Middle Ages.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it's one of the things that is used

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Speaker 1: to then levy violence against Jewish committed communities. It's one

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Speaker 1: of the excuses for prolgrims for wiping out Jewish people

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Speaker 1: is the practice of circumcision. The Jewish authorities, the Jewish

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Speaker 1: religious leaders have very different views about blood taboos than

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Speaker 1: Christians do, and of course circumcision was one of them.

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Speaker 1: But as far as religious rituals, you have self flagelens

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Speaker 1: Christians who would be themselves as an act of penance,

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Speaker 1: and they would to draw blood and they would you know,

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Speaker 1: if you've seen Monty Python and you see the guys

387
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Speaker 1: whacking themselves in the head. That is actually a parody

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Speaker 1: of the of the penitentiagete, the ones who were penitent

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Speaker 1: and would beat themselves as an act of penance. You

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Speaker 1: also have saints who, of course they're subjected supposedly the

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Speaker 1: horrific forms of torture, and female saints if they could

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Speaker 1: withstand that torture, that made them holier. The whole point

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Speaker 1: of a female saint, if they're a virgin martyr, is

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Speaker 1: you torture them. They're heal. Torture them, heal, torture healed,

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Speaker 1: and then they finally executed, usually by beheadache. It's like highlander,

396
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Speaker 1: you have to cut off their head. The male saints

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Speaker 1: are often executed in nasty ways, so you have the

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Speaker 1: division between torture for concession and punishment where they're executed.

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Speaker 1: Things like Saint Bartholomew was supposedly played alive, and that

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Speaker 1: is something that really wasn't ever actually done, but it

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Speaker 1: makes a good story. What is flaet alive?

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Speaker 2: I exactly, I would like to know that, what is

403
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Speaker 2: there descriptions of what they would say that looked.

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Speaker 1: Like, oh, yes, there's skin removal. It would be removing

405
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Speaker 1: the skin of a person while there's still alive. So

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Speaker 1: you skin an animal, you flay a human being, and

407
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: that is removing the skin either starting at the fingertips

408
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,040
Speaker 1: and working your way up, or you work your way down.

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Speaker 1: And there's only one historical instance where they claim to

410
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Speaker 1: have saved the skin of the person who was played.

411
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Speaker 1: It's from Venice in the sixth fifteenth century, and supposedly

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Speaker 1: this Venetian commander was flayed by the Turkish army and

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Speaker 1: his skin was stuffed and then kind of carried around

414
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Speaker 1: as effigy. Say, Bartholomew shows up a lot. You can

415
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: always see iconography of him. Sometimes he's carrying what looks

416
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Speaker 1: like a cloak over his arm. It's not a cloak,

417
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Speaker 1: it's his skin. And there are other instances where people

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Speaker 1: might be flayed through affliction. So there's one William de

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Speaker 1: Tracy in the South English legendary who unfortunately I believe

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Speaker 1: we're related to, who murdered Thomas Beckett in Canterbury Cathedral

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Speaker 1: in eleven seventy and the South English legendary says that

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Speaker 1: until he repented, he was struck with the skin affliction

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Speaker 1: and so he flayed the skin off of his arms

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Speaker 1: with his nails until he repents, and then he repents,

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Speaker 1: he's healed, and he dies as you do.

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Speaker 2: I love that you just told that story because I

427
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Speaker 2: love that anatom I thought it was an anatomic drawling,

428
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,439
Speaker 2: just because I really love all these anatomic drawings, and

429
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Speaker 2: I know exactly which one you're talking about. And it's

430
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Speaker 2: so cool because it's this muscular guy, like it looks

431
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 2: like an anatomy drawing of the musculature and he's holding

432
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 2: his entire skin.

433
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:04,960
Speaker 1: It's so cool. I love that, And I didn't know

434
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 1: that story. So yeah, and sometimes that's how Bartholomew is depicted,

435
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: or he might actually be wearing clothes and look whole,

436
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 1: but still be carrying his skin. That image that is

437
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 1: an anatomical drawing, the one that you're talking about with

438
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: the muscles and the skin. That's a sixteenth century anatomical

439
00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,080
Speaker 1: drawing that's similar to the wound Man. The wound Man

440
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 1: is fabulous. That's a drawing that has a male body

441
00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 1: with all the different ways, yes, and you know, like

442
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,120
Speaker 1: a little snake on his ankle and arrows sticking out

443
00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 1: of his arm. And it was meant to show the

444
00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: different ways that the human body could be penetrated or afflicted,

445
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: and it was used in medical practice. I love.

446
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 2: Those are my favorite drawings of all times. I have

447
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 2: a lot of books that have them in there, and

448
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 2: I just think the how cool.

449
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: Life was backed then? Well I do, I just think it.

450
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 2: I just think it must have been so cool. Every

451
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 2: week on Mother Knows Death we talk about all of

452
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 2: these different stories that relates to posts that we have

453
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 2: in the Grosser Room, And I think you guys would

454
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: really love it if you joined right now. You could

455
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:16,399
Speaker 2: join for only five ninety nine a month and you

456
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,080
Speaker 2: get to see multiple posts a week. We have thousands

457
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 2: of posts, pictures, videos over the course of years. When

458
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 2: did we start the gross Room in twenty twenty twenty nineteen. Yeah,

459
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 2: And you can see all the way back and it's

460
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 2: just really awesome. If you have an interest in any

461
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 2: particular topic, you could search by the title, like I

462
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: was just telling you about the guy that got impelled

463
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 2: with the garden flag, and that is called damage by Decoration.

464
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,200
Speaker 2: But you also could just search, like today, I didn't

465
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 2: remember what I called the post, so I just searched

466
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: garden flag there and lawnmower. If you search lawnmower all

467
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 2: the lawnmower accidents will come up. So it's it's really

468
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: awesome when we have a great group of people in

469
00:27:59,600 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 2: the grocer.

470
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,080
Speaker 1: So only five ninety nine a month. Yeah, So visit

471
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: the grossroom dot com for more info. Speak So, speaking.

472
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 2: Of religion, Easter is coming up this weekend, and I

473
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: assumed that crucifixion would be considered a form of torture.

474
00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,960
Speaker 2: Tell us what tell us everything about that? I'm so

475
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:24,800
Speaker 2: interested in it.

476
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: I like a good crucifixion, but a good crucifixion has

477
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: to be done properly. And crucifixion actually wasn't torture. It

478
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 1: was punishment. It is the it is the judgment after,

479
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 1: it's the sentence. Though, and this is going to blow

480
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 1: some people's minds. Crucifixion wasn't always designed to kill you,

481
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 1: because they could take you down after about an hour.

482
00:28:46,600 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 1: And of course to crucify somebody you need to do

483
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: it between the radius and the ula right here, So

484
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: all the Christian depictions of nails in the palms of

485
00:28:54,640 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 1: your hands, it wouldn't bleed out at all, like there

486
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,240
Speaker 1: is nothing there. It would take a very long time. Well,

487
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 1: and not only that, but if you put somebody up

488
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,960
Speaker 1: the gravity of the body on the palms of the hands,

489
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 1: it would just rip right through. And so if you

490
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: were going to crucify somebody, you had to do it

491
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: with the wrists, and you could take somebody down if

492
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: you managed to miss the major veins, take somebody down

493
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: in an hour. Now they're traumatized and it's horrific, but

494
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: they are still alive. What kills Jesus is supposed it's like,

495
00:29:28,400 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: what killed him is the spirit of the side. That's

496
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:35,080
Speaker 1: actually the killing blow is through the ribs, is the

497
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 1: spirit of the side, and his heart is punctured. And

498
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: that was because it can take you hours to die

499
00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: through crucifixion because your body, it's the gravity and the

500
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 1: weight is crushing your lungs. You suffocate and you have

501
00:29:48,920 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: to be up there for hours before that happens. So

502
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: if you wanted to publicly humiliate somebody and mark them,

503
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: because you'd have the scars, they'd know you were crucified

504
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: for something, they could take you down in an hour

505
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,880
Speaker 1: and you could survive. And you only see that as

506
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 1: a Roman form of punishment. It doesn't happen anywhere else really,

507
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 1: And it's the Romans who perfected that one.

508
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: I so we're planning on planning on doing a high

509
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: profile death dis section in the grocroom only crucifixion after

510
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 2: Easter because I'm really I'm just really curious of the

511
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 2: anatomy and the physiology of it. So that's cool that

512
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 2: you shared some of that. I think I've been thinking

513
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 2: about it for a while because if you if you

514
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 2: hit the radial artery with a nail, it would almost

515
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 2: it's almost like do you ever see if you get

516
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: like a nail in your tire or something, a lot

517
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: of air, like some air gets out, but not a

518
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:47,000
Speaker 2: lot until you pull the nail out, and then it

519
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 2: would be like that. And if you missed the artery

520
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: completely and just hit the vein, it would just be

521
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: even a slower bleed. But the further away from your heart,

522
00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 2: the blood vessels get smaller and smaller. The injury would

523
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 2: just bleed less and less or less likely to kill you,

524
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 2: as opposed to like your corotid artery getting sliced.

525
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: You could die quickly with that, so right well, and

526
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 1: also in crucifixion, think about the fact that his hands

527
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: are over his head because at the actual cross was

528
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: not the cross that we think of, like this. It

529
00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: was a cross like this, so far more common is

530
00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: this kind of cross. So someone's hands are extended over

531
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 1: their head, so the blood flow isn't isn't going to

532
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 1: go is going from their heart anyway. So you know,

533
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 1: if somebody's wrists are cut, you put their hands over

534
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: their heads so they don't bleed out. So you're absolutely right.

535
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 1: Bleeding out from crucifixion was unlikely the cause of death,

536
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:46,720
Speaker 1: and you would know this more than I But the

537
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: cause of death is the suffocation from the weight of

538
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: the body crushing your lungs.

539
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: This this is also brings up an interesting point because

540
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: if you would bring someone in this case to the hospital,

541
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 2: they would more than likely have schemic limbs and require

542
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 2: like bilateral arm amputations rather than bleeding out from it.

543
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:09,000
Speaker 2: So that's pretty interesting.

544
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 1: Absolutely well. It is the same thing with the distensions

545
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,479
Speaker 1: from torture with the strpado and the rack is that

546
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: you know, because you end up with those are injuries

547
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:21,800
Speaker 1: that can be debilitating. Somebody can survive, but then they're

548
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 1: no longer a productive member of society, and in a

549
00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 1: lot of cases you wanted to make sure that they

550
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: would be a productive member of society. So even pre

551
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: later four when you have mutilation tariffs where you know,

552
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,800
Speaker 1: they cut off a hand if you're if you're a thief,

553
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 1: or they cut off an ear, or they clip your ears,

554
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: that's usually the second, third, fourth time you've done it,

555
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,200
Speaker 1: the fourth offense. It's not the first thing they do

556
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 1: because they want to make sure that people don't become

557
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: a burden on their community because they can't work anymore.

558
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 1: Is there?

559
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: So let's get into how this relates. Do you do

560
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: you study what's happen, what happens now in relation to

561
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: what happened. So what as far as torture goes, at

562
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: least in America, we talked a little bit about the

563
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: Middle East. They sometimes don't have as many rules as

564
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: we do. But what like what torture methods are happening

565
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 2: currently with with the military or police that that you

566
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 2: could speak well?

567
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 1: According according to President Obama in two thousand and nine,

568
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: America does not torture. According to President Obama, President Trump

569
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 1: wanted to bring it back and thought that it should

570
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: happen absolutely unequivocally. During the Bush administration, the torture that

571
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 1: was used was largely psychological torture, sleep deprivations, sound sound bombardment,

572
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,640
Speaker 1: but also stress positions. And actually that's a medieval form

573
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 1: of torture, is a stress position, so putting somebody in

574
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,880
Speaker 1: a hunched up form and binding their hands and their

575
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,440
Speaker 1: ankles so that they're almost in fetal position and cannot move.

576
00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:02,920
Speaker 1: For in the Middle Ages, that was based on a

577
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: process called the Scavenger's daughter, and it's an implement that

578
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: was metal bands that would hold their wrists and their

579
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 1: ankles together and they'd be forced into that position for hours.

580
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 1: And just imagine if you sit in any position for

581
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: any length of time, how painful that can become. And

582
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: that was used quite frequently during the Iraq War and

583
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: the Afghanistan War. Now, whether or not the US military

584
00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: still engages in torture, Obama said no. President Biden followed Obama,

585
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 1: It's entirely likely that on non American soil you have

586
00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 1: the process of rendition. It would not surprise me if

587
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 1: there are people who were still tortured. Waterboarding was very popular. Waterboarding,

588
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 1: of course, simulates drowning in many respects. It doesn't even

589
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 1: simulate it. You're kind of drowning and then you're released

590
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: and drowning and released because the water is being poured

591
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 1: over your face onto a cloth so you can't breathe.

592
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:04,200
Speaker 1: Waterboarding is very controversial. Any form of torture would be,

593
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,720
Speaker 1: but it was employed during the Iraq War, and during

594
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 1: Afghanistan and in the aftermath of nine to eleven, and

595
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 1: it's possible that it still is being used by American

596
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,280
Speaker 1: authorities in the Middle East, depending on the country, because

597
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 1: not all Muslim countries involve torture. In fact, Islam prohibits it,

598
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: so does Judaism to a certain extent. So this idea

599
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,879
Speaker 1: that it's a cultural thing, that a religious thing when

600
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: torture is used in those circumstances. In a lot of cases,

601
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: it's not torture, it's just the punishment. The public beheadings

602
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: are punishment, and it's because somebody has been judged, usually

603
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: for minor infractions. They've been judged guilty and so they're executed.

604
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: And the difference, of course is the capital punishment. And honestly,

605
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: beheading is a lot less horrifying than being executed with nitrogen.

606
00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 2: Well, that's what I was saying last week. I feel

607
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 2: like if you just shot someone in the head or

608
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:05,759
Speaker 2: there's a lot of different things you could do to

609
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 2: kind of end it quickly. And that's my next thing

610
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,759
Speaker 2: I want to talk about is I feel like it's

611
00:36:12,760 --> 00:36:17,120
Speaker 2: twenty twenty four. This last execution happened and people are

612
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,719
Speaker 2: freaking out about it because this guy seemed to have

613
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 2: suffered for so long before he died. But it was

614
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 2: supposed to be done because it was more humane. But

615
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:30,040
Speaker 2: I don't know who they got that information from, because

616
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 2: it's an asphyxia death, like, it's not fun.

617
00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,160
Speaker 1: I don't know what they ask about that. Yeah. Well,

618
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: the important thing to remember about capital punishment too, is

619
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: that capital punishment in the Middle Ages was rare. It

620
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 1: was reserved for the worst crimes in very much like torture.

621
00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,640
Speaker 1: As you get into the early modern period, execution happens

622
00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: far more frequently, and then in the seventeenth and eighteenth century,

623
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 1: executions happened for all kinds of minor infractions and tortures

624
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: introduced specifically to try to make sure that the person

625
00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: being punished is guilty. They're actually introducing torture to make

626
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:13,799
Speaker 1: sure that the person is guilty, and as soon as

627
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,200
Speaker 1: they'd figure out that that doesn't always work, they stop

628
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 1: using it because they didn't want to execute innocent people

629
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:23,800
Speaker 1: and the methods of execution you have in the Middle Ages,

630
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 1: the most horrific is breaking on the wheel. That's pretty

631
00:37:27,320 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: awful because somebody was lashed to a wagon wheel and

632
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: beaten until all of their limbs would be broken and

633
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: their bodies would just be in pieces and they'd be

634
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: on public display. That's most common in Germany. In the

635
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:47,840
Speaker 1: Middle Ages. Hanging is strangulation because before the invention of

636
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 1: long df hanging in eighteen seventy one, the mode of hanging,

637
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 1: which was the most common form of capital punishment, is strangulation.

638
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 1: They are lifted up or they are you know, they're

639
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 1: just suspended by the neck and you are hanged by

640
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 1: the neck until bed and that can take six to

641
00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:10,520
Speaker 1: seven minutes of strangulation. And when they invent the long

642
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:14,000
Speaker 1: drop they were trying to be more humane in eighteen

643
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,400
Speaker 1: seventy one. When they calculate the weight of the body

644
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 1: and the distance you have to fall in the length

645
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,560
Speaker 1: of the rope so that you snap the neck. That's

646
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: supposed to be more humane. That was the idea. But

647
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: of course if you get the length of the rope wrong,

648
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: well the person might not actually hang at all and

649
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: they just hit the ground and they could break their

650
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 1: legs or their head will pop off, because if the

651
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,439
Speaker 1: rope is too short, the head pops off, and that

652
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:48,520
Speaker 1: I imagine is fairly fast, but pretty horrific. Now, beheading could

653
00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:54,279
Speaker 1: be humane if you're implemented sharp and your headsman is

654
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: sober and a good shot, because this was one of

655
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: the complaints about the English headsmen, and specifically in the

656
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 1: late Middle Ages. Again, beheading was reserved for select few.

657
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,800
Speaker 1: It was the way that noble people who committed treason

658
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 1: or other great crimes were executed, and there weren't many

659
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: of them. It happened very rarely in England. You would

660
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: be subjected to the axe, but if your headsman wasn't sober,

661
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 1: he might miss or his ax might be dull, and

662
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,320
Speaker 1: then he has to whack at you a few times

663
00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: before it severs the head. And one of the worst

664
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:39,400
Speaker 1: cases of this is the Countess of Salisbury who's executed

665
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 1: by Henry the eighth, who was getting paranoid about his

666
00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: own legitimacy to the throne. And the Countess of Salisbury

667
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: was eighty and she refused to kneel and put her

668
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 1: head on the block, so the headsman had to chase

669
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:58,759
Speaker 1: her around the scaffold and a hitter multiple times with

670
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,479
Speaker 1: the axe till she she fell over and he could

671
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 1: cut her head off. Not do mane at all, No,

672
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: and the balin and Balin specifically asks to have a

673
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: swordsman from Calais brought over because the sword was sharp

674
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 1: and he was able to do it in such a

675
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:18,960
Speaker 1: way that she would have felt nothing. In fact when

676
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,640
Speaker 1: she when they held the head alot and said behold

677
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: the head of a trader, because she was she was

678
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: actually convicted of something she did not do. She was

679
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: convicted of adultery, witchcraft, and treason because Henry needed to

680
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: get rid of her. The headsman pulls the axe out

681
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 1: or the sword from the straw on one side. One swing,

682
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 1: he takes her head off, her head falls. He holds

683
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: her head up and her eyes and her mouth open

684
00:40:48,080 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 1: and shut repeatedly for about fifteen seconds because it's such

685
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:57,799
Speaker 1: a clean cut. So she quite literally probably felt nothing. Now.

686
00:40:57,840 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: Being hang drawn and quartered, which was punishment for treason

687
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: in the later Middle Ages, you are partially hanged, so

688
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: you're hanged until you're partially strangled, and then they take

689
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 1: you down and then they lay you out and they

690
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: disembale you why you are still alive, and then they

691
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: castrate you, and then they cut off your head. And

692
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: that was reserved for traders. That was the worst possible

693
00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 1: thing that could be done. And the only thing accurate

694
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:28,319
Speaker 1: about the movie Brave Heart is what they do to

695
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 1: willynem Wallace at the end of that film, and he

696
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:34,279
Speaker 1: is hanged, drawn and quartered. So when you talk about execution,

697
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: if the goal is to prolong pay, you can do it.

698
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,319
Speaker 1: You can actually make it as horrific as you want,

699
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: like hanged on in quartering. But if the idea is

700
00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,040
Speaker 1: this is punishment that is determined by the state in

701
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 1: legal apparatus, there was a desire to make it easy

702
00:41:52,120 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 1: and fast. That doesn't always happen, and things like lethal injection.

703
00:41:58,040 --> 00:42:00,280
Speaker 1: I mean, the reason they've stopped using it is because

704
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 1: that is neither easy nor fast, and somebody could be

705
00:42:03,560 --> 00:42:06,480
Speaker 1: very well aware of what's happening to them. And there

706
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: are people who think that's perfectly fine, because that then

707
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:15,000
Speaker 1: reveals the idea that it's revenge not justice. But if

708
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: you want to execute somebody painlessly, the way to do

709
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 1: it is a firing squad or even beheading with a sword,

710
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 1: something that's quick and something that's effective. The electric chair

711
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: is horrified. It is absolutely monstrous to watch somebody or

712
00:42:32,400 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 1: to have somebody electrocuted to death. Who who's on the

713
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 1: board of I don't even know. I don't even know.

714
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,200
Speaker 1: This just got me thinking of that.

715
00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 2: I guess there's this whole, entire career field of people

716
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 2: who are in charge of making these types of decisions.

717
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: There's probably a whole board of people, but it just

718
00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:57,880
Speaker 2: seems it seems crazy to me that a bunch of

719
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 2: people thought like, hey, you know what, the night thing

720
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 2: is probably the best thing to do.

721
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, well, and I've got to wonder myself, because yeah,

722
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 1: I imagine every prison, every state has different laws, so

723
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,439
Speaker 1: it'd be state by state. You might have a state

724
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: board of prisons, and then, depending on the laws regarding

725
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: capital punishment, you might then have a board that's responsible

726
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,560
Speaker 1: for determining, well, how is this state going to do it.

727
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: I think it's Utah that still allows hanging, or it

728
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 1: might allow firing squad. There are a couple places that

729
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: allow condemned prisoners to actually choose to decide how they

730
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 1: want to die.

731
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 2: I just was writing about this this week. The Charles

732
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 2: Lindberg baby. I'm just like obsessed with that case right

733
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,840
Speaker 2: now and talking about all of these questions are coming

734
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:49,840
Speaker 2: up now, that of Richard Hopman, who was accused of

735
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: kidnapping and murdering the baby who received the electric chair.

736
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: There's all these This DNA that still exists in stuff

737
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,919
Speaker 2: in the state of New Jersey is very They don't

738
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: want to touch it, they don't want to test it.

739
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 2: And the only thing I could think is because they're

740
00:44:06,360 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 2: scared that they may have either put the wrong person

741
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: to death or there's more to the story that they

742
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,000
Speaker 2: didn't uncover, and they just want to kind of leave

743
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 2: that alone, because, I mean, sentencing a person to death

744
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 2: is very significant, So I guess you really.

745
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:24,720
Speaker 1: Need to make you you don't want to be wrong.

746
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: And that's I mean, my views on capital punishment. I'm

747
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: not in favor of it, because, yes, there are horrific

748
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 1: people in this world, serial killers, who do awful, awful

749
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 1: things about who's guilt, there is no question. I also

750
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 1: think that incarcerating them gives us an opportunity to learn

751
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 1: from them. I mean, this is why we have profiling,

752
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: this is why we have you know, we have forensic

753
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,800
Speaker 1: psychologists who can find other serial killers because they interviewed

754
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: serial killers who are alive, and in fact, Ted Bundy

755
00:44:56,280 --> 00:45:00,640
Speaker 1: provided a massive amount of information that helped the FBI

756
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:05,080
Speaker 1: catch the Green River killer. I mean, BTK profiled. All

757
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,479
Speaker 1: of those serial killers who were caught were caught because

758
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: they had information from other serial killers before they were

759
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: either executed or before they died in prison. There are

760
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 1: too many people who are executed who are innocent, and

761
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 1: you can't take it back. If you execute somebody who's

762
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,719
Speaker 1: innocent and they're exonerated later, they can undo it. And

763
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:30,240
Speaker 1: I testified in a murder trial when I was eighteen

764
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: for the defense because a friend of mine was accused

765
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 1: of a murder that I firmly believe, based on the

766
00:45:35,400 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: forensic evidence that exists, that he did not do it.

767
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: He was on death row for two years and the

768
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: Florida the Florida Supreme Court commuted his sentence to life

769
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:47,840
Speaker 1: in prison. And he's still in prison again for a

770
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: crime I believe he didn't commit. But if he'd been executed,

771
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:52,840
Speaker 1: there'd be no way to know.

772
00:45:53,719 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I guess you would also, you know, you

773
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:58,080
Speaker 2: just have me, just have me, think of like some movie,

774
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 2: catch me if you can, right, in Frank big Now

775
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 2: and I got to see a lecture with him, and

776
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: he was super cool, but he was not He didn't

777
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,960
Speaker 2: murder anyone or do anything that horrific as far as

778
00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 2: that's concerned.

779
00:46:10,600 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 1: But he was a.

780
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 2: Criminal, and then he was able to help investigators for

781
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 2: years and years and years help find other people that

782
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 2: were committing bank fraud and things like that. So I

783
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 2: could see your point that it's you know that you

784
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: would be against it because of that. I just can't

785
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:33,719
Speaker 2: help but think how I would feel if someone hurt

786
00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 2: one of my kids, especially like I mean, I guess

787
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be for capital punishment because I'd take care

788
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:39,760
Speaker 2: of it myself.

789
00:46:39,800 --> 00:46:43,920
Speaker 1: I think, well, and that makes sense, and I completely

790
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 1: understand the desire to execute people who do horrific things.

791
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 1: The profiler, who was one of the Round Floor profilers

792
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 1: for the bau it Is book mind Hunter. He talks

793
00:46:56,480 --> 00:47:01,320
Speaker 1: about being with John Glenn with doing Silence of the Lambs,

794
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 1: and John Glenn was very opposed to the death penalty

795
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: until Douglas. John Douglas played tapes of a murder in

796
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: process and he can hear you can hear that murder

797
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: being committed, and he says Dohn Glenn uh or Scott

798
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 1: Glenn changed his view. So he heard these women being

799
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: murdered and he was so horrified. He's like, that did

800
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 1: I'm now in favor of the death penalty. I get that.

801
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,839
Speaker 1: I totally understand the desire to remove those people from

802
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 1: the earths. I just don't know if we have a

803
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 1: system that makes sure that it can be applied evenly

804
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 1: and properly. And we still have a lot to learn

805
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: from those people, because again, the same person who wrote

806
00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: mind Hunter used the interviews with those serial killers to

807
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 1: then find and catch and stop other serial killers. Yeah.

808
00:47:51,480 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 2: I go back and forth, like when you when you

809
00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 2: say that, I think, Okay, like I could I feel

810
00:47:57,000 --> 00:47:57,399
Speaker 2: that way?

811
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 1: How you should? You've convinced me?

812
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 2: But then I think about I mean, if it's not

813
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,919
Speaker 2: my family, I would just be like whatever, they don't

814
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:07,759
Speaker 2: we could learn off them, But I just don't know

815
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,040
Speaker 2: how it would feel in a real life situation.

816
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 1: Because yeah, and that makes complete sense, And that is

817
00:48:14,080 --> 00:48:17,400
Speaker 1: part of why the death penalty is such a controversial

818
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:21,200
Speaker 1: issue in this country and state by state, because unless

819
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 1: you've experienced and you know, that is not something that

820
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,160
Speaker 1: we would ever want to wish on anybody to be

821
00:48:27,440 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 1: the victim of something like that and that kind of

822
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: horrific murder and torture that happens and happens very frequently

823
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 1: in American society, and for some reason, almost exclusively in

824
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 1: American society, not one hundred percent. There have been serial

825
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 1: killers elsewhere in the world, especially in England. Might want

826
00:48:46,560 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: to ask ourselves why the UK and the US seem

827
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 1: to have them, seem to have the market, we cornered

828
00:48:52,080 --> 00:48:55,839
Speaker 1: the market on serial killers. Yeah, and I guess you're

829
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,880
Speaker 1: saying with the torture that there was evidence that it

830
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: doesn't it's not really doing anything. And I've read studies

831
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: that the same could be said about I mean, like,

832
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,720
Speaker 1: think about states that have high death penalty that actually

833
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: carry them out if they don't have a less murder

834
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: rate than other states. So I guess it's not really

835
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 1: deter like if people want to do it, they're just like,

836
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: it's impulsive. I'm doing it.

837
00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: I want to do this and I'll deal with the

838
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:23,839
Speaker 2: consequences later kind of thing.

839
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: Most psychopaths and sociopaths who commit serial murder don't care

840
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,839
Speaker 1: what the consequence is. They don't care about the consequence

841
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: it is not the thing that would either deter them

842
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: or compel them. That's one of the important things to

843
00:49:37,840 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 1: remember about serial murders specifically, is that the psychology there,

844
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: they're not thinking about what might happen to them eventually.

845
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 1: They're thinking about what they are going to do and

846
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:51,080
Speaker 1: how they're going to do it at that moment to

847
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 1: satisfy the need to do it. And in other cases

848
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 1: of murder, if it's an impulsive thing, if it's a

849
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: you know, a one time thing because of or rage,

850
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 1: is that really I mean, it's hardrific to lose a

851
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: family member. And I know the person who was murdered

852
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:10,279
Speaker 1: in that trial. I testified it. I knew her, and

853
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 1: it was horrible what happened to her. That is it

854
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 1: worth executing somebody in revenge for that, especially if it's

855
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,600
Speaker 1: the wrong person? Yeah, I could see that.

856
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, because again, that loved one could be not just

857
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 2: your child or your husband, wife, whatever that got murdered,

858
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 2: but it also could be a person that's being accused

859
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 2: and they're innocent, and you have to think of it

860
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:37,120
Speaker 2: from that perspective.

861
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 1: Yeah. And in the Middle Ages, they thought about that.

862
00:50:40,120 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 1: They were actually very concerned about that. They were concerned

863
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:46,720
Speaker 1: about making sure that people who were punished were actually guilty.

864
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: And a lot of people don't think that. They don't

865
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:53,360
Speaker 1: realize that in the Middle Ages it wasn't just you know, rape, pillage,

866
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: burn vikings. That could be another episode to talk about

867
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: vikings and what happened with them, But it wasn't just

868
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 1: this brutal society that was constantly ripping people apart and

869
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,359
Speaker 1: executing them in nasty ways and torturing them. They thought

870
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,920
Speaker 1: about it, and they were really trying in a lot

871
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: of cases, though not always there were abuses. They were

872
00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,319
Speaker 1: corrupt people, just like there are now, but there were

873
00:51:15,320 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 1: people who were really trying to make sure that if

874
00:51:18,160 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: somebody was punished, they deserved it.

875
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:24,399
Speaker 2: I love all this. Where where can people hear more?

876
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:27,120
Speaker 2: Because I feel like we could hear you talk for

877
00:51:27,200 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: hours about this. Where can I know that you have

878
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,320
Speaker 2: a couple of books and we could link them in

879
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 2: the episode for you? But where else can people hear

880
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 2: more of your of your just your knowledge?

881
00:51:40,600 --> 00:51:43,960
Speaker 1: Well? I have recorded a couple podcast episodes with Richard

882
00:51:44,040 --> 00:51:47,520
Speaker 1: Abeles on Tis called Tis But a Scratch, and I

883
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:51,960
Speaker 1: also appear in the History Channel series Dark Marvels and

884
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: The Unbelievable hosted by Dan Aykroyd and generally speaking, my

885
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 1: books Torture and Brutality in Medieval Literature, Medieval and Early

886
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: Modern Murder. Those are all on Amazon. Some of them

887
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:06,200
Speaker 1: appear in paperback. If we could get my book on

888
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:10,239
Speaker 1: Slaying into paperback, we'd have a box set. That'd be

889
00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: so cool.

890
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,520
Speaker 2: Well, I hope we hear a podcast from just you

891
00:52:14,680 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 2: one day, because you're amazing and thanks so much for

892
00:52:17,440 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 2: being here today.

893
00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. And if I do have a podcast,

894
00:52:21,239 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 1: I will invite you to be one of my first guests.

895
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you so much.

896
00:52:30,880 --> 00:52:34,719
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Mother nos Death. As a reminder,

897
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,719
Speaker 2: my training is as a pathologist's assistant. I have a

898
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:43,120
Speaker 2: master's level education and specialize in anatomy and pathology education.

899
00:52:44,239 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 2: I am not a doctor and I have not diagnosed

900
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 2: or treated anyone dead or alive without the assistance of

901
00:52:50,160 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 2: a licensed medical doctor. This show, my website, and social

902
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,920
Speaker 2: media accounts are designed to educate and inform people based

903
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 2: on my experience working in pathology, so they can make

904
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 2: healthier decisions regarding their life and well being. Always remember

905
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 2: that science is changing every day and the opinions expressed

906
00:53:10,920 --> 00:53:13,560
Speaker 2: in this episode are based on my knowledge of those

907
00:53:13,600 --> 00:53:17,359
Speaker 2: subjects at the time of publication. If you are having

908
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:21,400
Speaker 2: a medical problem, have a medical question, or having a

909
00:53:21,440 --> 00:53:25,800
Speaker 2: medical emergency, please contact your physician or visit an urgent

910
00:53:25,840 --> 00:53:27,960
Speaker 2: care center, emergency room.

911
00:53:27,960 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 1: Or hospital.

912
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 2: Please rate, review, and subscribe to Mother Knows Death on Apple, Spotify, YouTube,

913
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 2: or anywhere you get podcasts.

914
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 1: Thanks