WEBVTT - From the Vault; Stone Age Technology with Dietrich Stout 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:07.760 Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:11.120 is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:13.400 Time to venture into the Vault for a classic episode 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:16.040 of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This one originally aired 0:00:16.079 --> 0:00:21.159 November two thousand eighteen. This was our interview with the 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:25.160 emery professor Dietrich Stout about stone age technology. Yeah, this one, 0:00:25.239 --> 0:00:26.640 this one was a lot of fun. We actually had 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:29.960 an in the studio, so uh, no phone call, uh 0:00:30.240 --> 0:00:32.600 static or anything going on with this one. Uh. He 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:35.479 was a tremendously interesting to chat with and he even 0:00:35.520 --> 0:00:38.559 engage some discussion on two thousand and one a Space Odyssey, 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:41.680 which of course was the the Vault episode that we 0:00:41.720 --> 0:00:47.560 aired before this one. Yeah, so we hope you enjoy 0:00:47.680 --> 0:00:50.520 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:58.920 Works dot Com. Hey, you welcome to Stuff to Blow 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.880 your Mind. My name is Ra and I'm Joe McCormick. 0:01:01.880 --> 0:01:04.920 In today we have for you an interview episode, an 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:08.959 episode where we sat down and talked to an expert 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:13.400 on paleolithic technology. And I'm really excited for you all 0:01:13.440 --> 0:01:15.759 to hear this one because this conversation was a lot 0:01:15.800 --> 0:01:17.959 of fun. A Stone Age technology is so much more 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.240 fascinating than you would think, yeah, because in looking at it, 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.800 we're looking really at the roots of a human invention 0:01:24.959 --> 0:01:28.760 and innovation, Like where does the entire tree of human 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:33.479 technology spring from? Yeah, and how did ancient technology shape us? 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:36.320 So this is going to be a conversation with Dr 0:01:36.400 --> 0:01:40.640 Dietrich Stout. Dietrich Stout is an Associate professor of anthropology 0:01:40.640 --> 0:01:45.880 at Emory University, where his Paleolithic Technology Laboratory investigates the 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:49.520 role of technology and human evolution. Dr Stout is also 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:53.440 Associate director of Emory's cross Disciplinary Center for Mind, Brain 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:57.840 and Culture, which promotes diverse and integrative research into human 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:02.240 nature and experience. His research focus on Paleolithic stone toolmaking 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.760 and brain evolution, integrads field research at early Stone Age 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:10.120 archaeological sites in Ethiopia with laboratory and museum research including 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:17.240 artifact analysis and experimental replication, functional and structural neuroimaging, behavioral analysis, 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:19.919 and psychometric testing. Now, if you want to check out 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.799 those centers I mentioned, the Paleolithic Technology Laboratory, you can 0:02:23.800 --> 0:02:26.359 find that at scholar blogs dot Emery dot e d 0:02:26.520 --> 0:02:30.600 u slash Stout Lab, and then the Center for mind 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:34.519 braining culture. You can just go to c MBC dot 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:37.280 Emery dot E d U. Yeah, this is a super 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:41.919 fun interview. I should distress this was an in studio interview. Yeah, 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.040 one of a couple of interviews we recorded about a 0:02:44.040 --> 0:02:46.200 month ago where we said, hey, let's let's reach out 0:02:46.200 --> 0:02:49.960 to some local experts on some various topics. We don't 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.480 necessarily we enjoyed jumping on the phone with with folks, 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:56.240 but why not have some some local talent come into 0:02:56.280 --> 0:02:58.440 the studio. And that's what we did here. It was 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:00.519 a lot of fun, uh, and I and you will 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.040 really enjoy it. So I'd say, without any further ado, 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:10.200 let's go straight to our conversation with Dietrich Stout. Hey, Dietrich, 0:03:10.280 --> 0:03:12.640 thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today. 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:15.280 Can you start by telling our listeners a little bit 0:03:15.320 --> 0:03:18.079 about who you are and what you do? Yeah. Well, 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:23.440 I'm an associate professor of anthropology at Emory University. I'm 0:03:23.480 --> 0:03:27.160 also the associate director of the Center for Mind, Brain 0:03:27.200 --> 0:03:31.200 and Culture at Emery as well, which is a center 0:03:31.240 --> 0:03:36.440 that promotes interdisciplinary research on mind, brain and culture. And 0:03:36.480 --> 0:03:39.360 those are basically my interests. I come at it from 0:03:39.400 --> 0:03:42.000 the direction of archaeology and the hope that we can 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:45.200 learn something from the past about what made us the 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:48.520 way we are today. So how did you first get 0:03:48.560 --> 0:03:53.120 interested in stone age technology? Well, um, it's not something 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:57.480 that you typically encounter in most high schools around the country. UH. So, 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:59.640 you know, when I went to UH to college, I 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.880 really had had no idea of the possibilities that were 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.800 there for anthropology, for the archaeology of human origins. I 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:08.520 did know that I was interested in the way the 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.680 human mind works, in the nature of human experience. UH. 0:04:11.840 --> 0:04:13.320 And at the time, I thought that meant that I 0:04:13.320 --> 0:04:16.839 wanted to be a philosopher. When I got to school, 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:21.360 I realized what I said before, that a lot of 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:24.159 the way we can understand how we are today and 0:04:24.200 --> 0:04:27.480 the nature of human experiences to understand the evolutionary processes 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:30.560 that brought us to where we are. UH. And I 0:04:30.600 --> 0:04:34.160 had a really great UH professor as a freshman and 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:37.240 a freshman seminar. He told me to take some archaeology classes. 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:39.599 I did, and I still I just remember one lecture 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:42.760 that my professor gave, and she was talking about these 0:04:42.760 --> 0:04:46.080 ancient stone tools in a particular kind called the little 0:04:46.160 --> 0:04:49.000 vow waw technique, um, And he was pointing out that 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:52.920 you could see every individual action and and blow against 0:04:52.960 --> 0:04:55.480 the core that this person had done something like fifty 0:04:55.560 --> 0:04:58.240 or a hundred thousand years ago, and you could reconstruct 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:01.159 what they were thinking, the plans they made, And that 0:05:01.279 --> 0:05:03.400 just struck me as as an incredible window on the 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:05.560 past and how our minds became the way that they 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.520 are today. And that's what got me started on it. 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:11.240 And like seeing into a dead person's imagination. Yeah, to 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.159 be able to recapture that, I mean, And now I've 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.039 worked at sites there are half a million years old 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:19.440 where you can literally trace individual decision making processes. It's 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.400 it's it's pretty incredible. Actually held a core at one 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:24.279 of these sites. I was looking at it and I 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:27.320 was wondering why they didn't do something that that I 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:30.440 would have done with that core, that piece of rock, 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:32.560 and I twisted it around to look at where I 0:05:32.600 --> 0:05:34.400 was thinking about, and I said that they actually had tried, 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:38.920 well I was thinking, but it didn't work. So both 0:05:38.920 --> 0:05:41.000 of us made the same mistake, separated by half a 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:45.200 million years. That's almost a little spooky. Yeah. Um, So 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:49.279 obviously we know that the Stone Age means stone tools. 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:51.880 But what as an expert in the area, what does 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:54.120 the Stone Age mean to you? What do you think 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:57.840 about when when this age is conjured? Uh? Yeah, well, 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:02.240 I think really of the the time period uh for 0:06:02.279 --> 0:06:05.920 which we have evidence of human behavior in the forms 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.240 of archaeology, but extending way back into the past, so 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:13.360 that we have information, but it's also an evolutionary time depth. 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:16.799 And we're talking millions of years, more than three million 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.400 years at this point of time. Uh. So that's what 0:06:20.720 --> 0:06:23.800 gets me excited about the Stone Age. Uh And of 0:06:23.839 --> 0:06:26.800 course you know, it's called the Stone Age for a reason. 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:28.880 Most of what we have are the best evidences of 0:06:28.960 --> 0:06:32.640 stone tools for behavior. Um So that's what I've focused on. 0:06:33.680 --> 0:06:36.560 And when you think about the very beginning of the Paleolithic, 0:06:36.600 --> 0:06:40.680 obviously we're talking about hominid ancestors then, but not not 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:46.119 Homo sapiens, right, And so when those organisms were alive, 0:06:46.160 --> 0:06:49.240 when when they were trying to survive and and stone 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.160 tools began to play a role in their lives, what 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.719 was that role? What was the earliest role you think 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:59.719 stone tools played in in these organisms survival? Yeah? Well, 0:06:59.720 --> 0:07:02.039 I would say at the outset, there's a lot of 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.800 things we don't really know with any great certainty about 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:09.280 the earliest Paleolithic uh. I think that there is strong 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:13.440 evidence that some of the earlier tools were used for 0:07:13.440 --> 0:07:18.360 for butchery of animals, because you can recover actual cut 0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.120 marks on bones when somebody accidentally nicked the bone as 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:24.720 they were butchering an animal, and so that's a direct evidence. 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:26.840 Now what else they were used for is much harder 0:07:26.880 --> 0:07:29.920 to say because the plant materials, all those things are gone, 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.920 so there's very limited evidence of that, and it's only 0:07:33.920 --> 0:07:36.000 in the past couple of years that that has been 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.000 reported a much earlier site. We used to think the 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:42.520 earliest stone tools were two and a half million years 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:44.680 old that worked at some of those sites, but now 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:47.160 they go back to three point three million years and 0:07:47.920 --> 0:07:50.880 we as yet have very little evidence of what they 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:53.160 might have done with those tools. Hopefully in the next 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:54.800 few years there will be the kinds of evidence that 0:07:54.840 --> 0:07:57.120 I was talking about, but it's just not there yet, 0:07:57.160 --> 0:08:00.560 so a lot of unknowns. If I had to say, 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:04.320 these things are cutting tools, and the most important thing 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:08.040 probably for early humans to be able to cut was 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:11.960 animal flesh to access that, but they could have used 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:16.040 them for a lot of other things, including making other tools. Uh. 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:18.360 One of the great things about having a cutting edge 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.720 is your ability to shape other tools. For instance, in 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:23.200 would if you have a knife in the form of 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:25.600 a stone flake, you can make a spear. You can 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.679 make a digging stick. Again, though the wood's not there anymore. 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:30.880 So if they did that, we have a hard time 0:08:30.920 --> 0:08:34.560 knowing for sure. And when you mentioned those dates a 0:08:34.600 --> 0:08:38.199 minute ago that's referring to, Uh, is that that modified 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.840 stone tools we're not talking about like found stone tools. No, 0:08:42.040 --> 0:08:45.400 And in fact, it would be nearly impossible to identify 0:08:45.440 --> 0:08:49.600 and differentiate a found stone tool from a rock at 0:08:49.600 --> 0:08:52.760 this point. M. So that's why we know chimpanzees use 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:57.199 rocks as tools, and so it's you know, likely that 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:01.320 are very early ancestors did Um. But yeah, by by 0:09:01.360 --> 0:09:03.920 three point three, we have evidence of them actually fracturing 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.920 rock on purpose in a controlled way to produce cutting edges. 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:11.679 And that's something that we can definitively separate from a 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.319 natural process, so we know it it occurred at that point. Um. 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:17.480 Currently if I'm wrong, but are there are there broad 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:23.320 stroke um classifications for the different levels of tool creation? 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.920 Like I want to say, it's something like nature fact, artifact, etcetera. Uh, 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:30.880 could you walk our listeners through that? Yeah? Well, um, 0:09:30.920 --> 0:09:34.760 you know, of course you could have on modified rocks 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:37.880 used as tools, for instance, to crack open and nut 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:42.000 as Uh. Chimpanzees and some monkeys, macaque monkeys do that 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.360 as well. Um, that's a tool, you know, it's a 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:49.320 stone tool. Um. But what we see by three point 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.680 three million years is the actual modification of the rock 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.040 on purpose in order to make a different kind of tool. Uh. 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:00.280 And that's generally a process simply of fracturing the to 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:06.680 produce sharp shards or flakes of stone that then become knives. Um. 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:11.600 And so that's loosely called like mode one. Uh. The 0:10:11.600 --> 0:10:14.680 most well known industry that does that is the old 0:10:14.760 --> 0:10:17.439 One named after Old of I Gorge or Mary and 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.080 Louis Leaky worked. Uh. And that's a very simple form 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:23.959 of stone tool making. Uh. It does require quite a 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.559 bit of coordination. It's not easy to break rocks. Um. 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.080 They're hard. You have to hit them just right and 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:34.000 with a lot of force. Um. But it's pretty conceptually simple. 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.000 You're not gonna make flakes um. And then after that 0:10:37.080 --> 0:10:40.480 you've got what variously is called like mode to or 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:43.360 loosely called Schulian after a site where it was first 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:46.400 described in Europe. Is the manufacture of these things that 0:10:46.800 --> 0:10:49.679 archaeologists call hand axes. And that's where you're not just 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:53.000 shattering the rock into flakes, but you're actually shaping the 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:56.640 rock to make a tool. UM. The classic tool from 0:10:56.679 --> 0:11:00.200 this sort of stage or time period is UH the 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:04.240 hand as, which would be a flat rock UM with 0:11:05.040 --> 0:11:07.120 cutting edge most of the way around the perimeter and 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.800 a tip at one end can be good again we 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.559 think for a large animal butchery UH. And so that's 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.160 where you've moved in to actually having the intention, having 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.400 a goal in mind, and the techniques that you have. 0:11:18.480 --> 0:11:21.839 The control over the stone that's required is more um UH. 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:26.160 Following that, you have what we call prepared core technologies 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.240 in which you shape the rock in a careful way 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.080 so that you can remove one final piece that's already 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:35.440 pre shaped the way you want it to be uh. 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:36.880 And then you can do that over and over again, 0:11:36.920 --> 0:11:39.840 so it becomes a very efficient way of making tools. 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:42.360 And then there's all sorts of variations on that UM. 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.040 And that's the point in which we think there's a 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:47.200 big change that they start actually putting these things on sticks, 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.360 for instance hafting. Right, So you have composite tools, and 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.360 you have all sorts of other techniques and materials that 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:55.920 then enter the process and things become much more complex. 0:11:57.960 --> 0:12:00.560 So you mentioned the hand as, I'm interested to know 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.760 a little bit more about that. I may be mistaken, 0:12:03.800 --> 0:12:06.920 but there there have been identified, I think, different schools 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:10.719 of hand as construction. Is that right? Well, yeah, I 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:13.800 mean there are different ways of making something that we 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.440 call a hand ax. Uh. Now, we also, I would 0:12:17.440 --> 0:12:20.760 have be very careful about that. We should always remember 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:22.240 that when we call slanging a hand axt, that's a 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:24.520 name that we came up with to describe a bunch 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.679 of things that we think are all similar to each other. 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:30.319 That doesn't necessarily map onto what anybody was thinking in 0:12:30.360 --> 0:12:33.040 the past, or whether they knew each other or or whatever. 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:35.920 So it's a tool, but we have to be careful 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:37.480 about it. You put a name on something, you think 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.680 you understand it. Uh. But yeah, So, as I mentioned, 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.679 the hand ax has a particular form, there's a lot 0:12:43.679 --> 0:12:45.520 of different ways you could achieve that, and a lot 0:12:45.520 --> 0:12:48.679 of different starting points. For instance, I might start with 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.400 just a big rock and then shape that rock into 0:12:52.600 --> 0:12:56.360 a pointed, thin hand ax. Uh Or I could start 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.720 with an even larger rock and then I knock off 0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:01.800 a giant flame a you know, more than more than 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.960 ten centimeters long, as generally they cut off, and that's 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.880 almost already what I need. You know, it's got a 0:13:07.880 --> 0:13:10.319 big cutting edge all the way around the edge. And 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.720 then I shape that flight just a little bit right. 0:13:13.040 --> 0:13:14.920 And that's a very different way of making a tool 0:13:15.000 --> 0:13:17.439 that in the end probably as a similar function and 0:13:17.520 --> 0:13:20.360 looks quite similar. And then there's all sorts of different 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.280 sub variants of ways of doing that. Uh So that's 0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.480 what I think when you're talking about different schools, is 0:13:26.520 --> 0:13:29.720 these different methods of making the hand access. Now there's 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.360 as a raging debate over what the variation actually means, 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:36.319 you know, they the sort of naive ascension early on 0:13:36.440 --> 0:13:38.400 was every time you find a different way of doing something, 0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:40.920 that's a different quote culture, even though we don't really 0:13:40.920 --> 0:13:42.520 know what we mean by that term at that point. 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.240 Now now there's you know, people saying that all these 0:13:45.240 --> 0:13:49.839 are just recurring rediscoveries of simple solutions to the same 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.040 kind of problems. They don't necessarily imply any sort of 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:57.280 cultural continuity or contact between people. There's even been suggestions 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.559 that there was some kind of large genetic opponent to 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.880 the way that people made these these hand axes. So 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:05.600 now it's up for debate. But the variation is what 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.840 we we study to try to understand what was going 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:10.680 on in the past. That's where we have a sort 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.840 of an insight into what was what was happening. Well, 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:15.920 I was definitely going to ask you the naive question 0:14:15.960 --> 0:14:18.920 about whether that's a result of culture, but is there 0:14:19.040 --> 0:14:21.800 So if we don't make that assumption that the different 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:25.560 forms or shapes or approaches to hand axes are necessarily 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.800 the result of cultural traditions or cultural contact, is there 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:33.160 anything that you think looking at tools like this Stone 0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.960 age tools could possibly tell us about the culture of 0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.960 the creatures that made them. Yeah, well, and so this 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:41.760 is where we have to get into the sort of 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:47.760 stuff that you can learn through experimental archaeology. Um, for instance, 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:53.200 how difficult is it to discover and use particular techniques? 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:56.040 You know, so you know, if there if there's two 0:14:56.080 --> 0:14:58.480 people that do something the same way, if it's an 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.080 obvious answer, then the no reason to think they learned 0:15:01.120 --> 0:15:02.880 it from each other. But if it's this really sort 0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.480 of obscure and and and hard to learn technique that 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:08.600 they share, and then it's much more likely that they 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.080 learned it from each other. So I mean, so there's 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:14.040 this thing in in the issuely and uh sort of 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:21.600 a geographic patterning um to where you have far fewer 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:26.200 hand axes in East Asia than you do in Africa 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:31.960 and Western Asia and Europe. And also none of them 0:15:32.000 --> 0:15:34.400 really to appear to be as refined as some of 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.080 the nicest examples from from further west. Um. And so 0:15:38.120 --> 0:15:40.720 people have devided for a long time with this geographical 0:15:40.840 --> 0:15:44.520 patterning means, and I tend to interpret it, you know, 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.040 is in terms of there are some techniques that are 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.560 pretty hard to discover on your own and some that 0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.880 are easy, you know. And so you have a lot 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:55.640 of reinvention of sort of easy hand acts making here 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.960 there in the other place, you know. But these particular uh, 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.640 advanced techniques may only have been invited it once or 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:04.560 twice or a couple of times, and so their geographic 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:07.360 spread is more restricted. So that's sort of the way 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.640 that you make a relationship between understanding the way that 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:12.440 you actually make the tools and then how they might 0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:18.200 spread through ancient populations. So you mentioned experimental archaeology. Um. 0:16:18.240 --> 0:16:20.240 I know a lot of people probably when they think 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.320 about the data collection part of archaeology, they probably think 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:26.560 primarily about digging. Um. But but tell us a little 0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:31.320 bit about what experimental archaeology means and what what what 0:16:31.520 --> 0:16:33.400 kind of things that has helped us understand that we 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:37.520 couldn't understand just from looking at actual artifacts. Yeah. Well, 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:39.600 you know what you can understand from just looking at 0:16:39.640 --> 0:16:42.640 the artifact is actually a bit limited. You know, these 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:44.960 things they don't they don't come out of the ground 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:48.640 with with labels on them. Uh uh. You know. I 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:50.520 I like to do this when I give a presentation 0:16:50.520 --> 0:16:53.280 and to show a picture full of a table full 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:56.120 of a bunch of old one stone tools and say like, okay, 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.040 now what does this tell us? And in most people, 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:00.640 you know, you can't even tell all that there are 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:02.560 anything other than just rocks if you're not used to 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:05.399 looking at them. So what you have to do to 0:17:05.680 --> 0:17:08.080 understand what these tools that we dig up can actually 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:12.840 tell us is uh, basically experimental archaeology. We use analogies, 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.600 We try to learn how to make them ourselves, and 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:18.520 then you can manipulate. Well, if I make it this way, 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:20.600 then it looks like that. If I make it this way, 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.840 it looks like that. If I use it this way, 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:26.480 this happens to it. Um. So then we make these analogies, 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:29.720 these sort of inferential arguments that processes we can observe 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.040 and manipulate experimentally now are the same ones that produce 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:36.560 the same effects in the past. Uh, I mean, if 0:17:36.560 --> 0:17:39.880 you think about it, we do this you know any time, 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:41.919 even in more recent time periods. When you look at 0:17:41.920 --> 0:17:44.720 an artifact, I mean, you're making an analogy with something 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:49.720 you're familiar with. Usually even it's just implicit, you know, obviously, um, 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.000 this is a sword, you know, seeing things like that 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:53.800 before and now you don't really know that you're right, 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:56.160 but it's similar enough to things with which you're familiar 0:17:56.320 --> 0:17:58.960 that that that's you know, that's reasonable. When you dig 0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:00.879 up something from two an a million years ago, you've 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:02.919 got nothing to go on, right, So we have to 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:06.440 actually do some of this work to establish robust or 0:18:06.520 --> 0:18:10.479 strong analogies that we can use. Now you've mentioned your 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:16.120 own experiences creating stone tools. How long does it take 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:20.119 you to create a hand axe? Oh? Yeah, I mean 0:18:20.160 --> 0:18:22.160 it takes me maybe half an hour. I'm a little 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:26.119 bit slow with that. Uh and uh, you know it 0:18:26.160 --> 0:18:28.560 depending on how nice you want to make it. And 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:31.680 that's already assuming that I'm I'm sitting in my outdoor 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:34.199 lab with a pile of rocks right next to me, 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:37.040 and I just start making the thing. You know, if, 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.000 of course, in prehistory you would have had to go 0:18:40.080 --> 0:18:41.560 get the rocks and all these other things take a 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:44.440 lot more time. But yeah, uh, something that's that's quite 0:18:44.520 --> 0:18:49.480 good at it nine twelve to fifteen minutes, you can yea. Yeah, 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:51.919 So you mentioned that we think a lot of these 0:18:51.960 --> 0:18:55.600 early stone tools were used in butchering meat. Have you 0:18:55.680 --> 0:18:59.320 ever had food prepared with stone tools you've made? Uh, well, 0:18:59.440 --> 0:19:02.680 let's see myself. Uh yeah, only actually recently one of 0:19:02.720 --> 0:19:05.800 my colleagues had a pig roast where we used some 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.280 of the stuff that I had made. Yeah, but back 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:10.800 in uh in in graduate school. And it's quite common 0:19:11.440 --> 0:19:14.160 in these labs and places where people do this sort 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:18.560 of work to have the occasional animal roast where you uh, 0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:21.840 and you you learn things like you know that obsidian 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:24.960 um is really sharp and great, but it also crumbles 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:28.399 and leaves little bits of like glassy kind of gridgy stuff. Yeah, 0:19:28.640 --> 0:19:32.719 not so great. I like flint better. So do we 0:19:32.800 --> 0:19:35.600 find uh, do we find little grains of obsidian and 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:40.880 ancient teeth? I'm not aware. Um, you know, there's always 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:43.439 I'm not well versed in later prehistory, and so it's 0:19:43.480 --> 0:19:45.400 possibily there's something out there about that. I'm not aware 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:49.800 of them actually getting any dental wear from the stone tools. 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:52.159 Of course, you get very similar looking dental where when 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:55.199 you you eat like a tubersy dug out of sandy ground, 0:19:55.280 --> 0:19:58.840 so you do get cut marks on teeth, which is 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.800 very interesting because a way commonly to eat things if 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:05.640 you don't use silverware or chop sticks or anything like that, 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:07.400 is you hold it up to your mouth, you clench 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:09.840 it in your teeth, and you cut away from from there, 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:12.200 so you're cutting right next to your mouth, and occasionally 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:14.480 they did hit their teeth um, and so you get 0:20:14.480 --> 0:20:19.680 these little little cut marks on the front teeth and spatingly. Sorry, Yeah, 0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.159 a lot of things gross, but one of the one 0:20:22.200 --> 0:20:25.200 of the cool things. You can actually infer which hand 0:20:25.320 --> 0:20:27.680 was used because there is a you know, a sort 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:31.760 of in ergonomics. You're slicing down and in one direction, 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:33.639 so you can tell, and so people use that to 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:38.480 identify early examples of predominantly right handed populations. So even 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.000 the gross stuff, there's always something you can you can 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:42.720 get out of it, you know. We encourage you to 0:20:42.760 --> 0:20:44.960 mention all the gross stuff. We're not We don't shy 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:47.679 away from that here. So how is the study of 0:20:47.760 --> 0:20:52.080 modern stone tool users such a such as a stone 0:20:52.119 --> 0:20:54.800 tool users in New Guinea? How is this informed our 0:20:54.880 --> 0:20:58.440 understanding of ancient stone tool use? Basically, the whole goal 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.879 of experimental archie apology is to generate analogies that we 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:07.320 can observe in the modern day UH to understand the past. UM. 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:09.720 One of the things we have to be careful about though, 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.800 is that when you design experiments and you control things, 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:14.680 you build in a lot of your own assumptions, even 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:16.800 if you're not aware of them, about how things are 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.040 done or why things are done and so forth. You're 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:22.200 also dealing with a very artificial environment in the lab 0:21:22.280 --> 0:21:25.159 and without any social context or anything like that. UM. 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.960 So another source of analogy UM that you can use 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:33.239 to understand the past is UH ethnographic observation UM. And 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:35.160 by that I would tress it you you can include 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:37.439 also people for instance, in the United States that do 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:39.919 this as a hobby. There's a community, there's things we 0:21:39.920 --> 0:21:42.719 can learn from them. I was lucky enough to uh 0:21:42.880 --> 0:21:45.960 to visit some modern toolmakers in New Guinea that are 0:21:46.000 --> 0:21:51.280 part of a different tradition uh back in I was there, 0:21:51.680 --> 0:21:53.639 um and one of the things that that that just 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:56.480 broadens the number of different examples of ways to do 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.480 things UM that we can use to understand the past. UM. 0:22:00.520 --> 0:22:02.400 And one of the one of the really cool things 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:04.280 about it was I was expecting this to be a 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:07.840 very uh you know, very foreign experience, experience to be 0:22:07.840 --> 0:22:09.760 in the highlands of New Guinea, and but once we 0:22:09.800 --> 0:22:11.959 got to the stone tools, they talked about a lot 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:14.080 of the same things that I, as an archaeologist was 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:15.919 already used, where they had names for the for the 0:22:15.960 --> 0:22:18.480 same kinds of features of the stone tools and they 0:22:18.680 --> 0:22:20.800 uh So there's a real common ground there because we 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:23.600 were all based on things that happened when you try 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:26.479 to break stone in a controlled way. And then that's 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:28.920 very validating for an archaeologist because it means we can 0:22:28.920 --> 0:22:31.159 expect that even moving them to the total unknown of 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:33.840 the past, there's gonna be these constants that shaped human 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.440 behavior and if we can understand them today, it looks 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:40.080 like they affect different people from very different cultural backgrounds 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.240 in similar ways. And so so that's very validating. UM. 0:22:43.440 --> 0:22:46.399 The other thing that was really exciting there is is 0:22:46.480 --> 0:22:49.640 just how they incorporated stone tool making into their own 0:22:49.680 --> 0:22:53.720 particular cultural and social contextu UM, which obviously, if you 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:58.040 study hobbyists in the industrialized West is one context. But 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:02.119 this was horticultural contact. And the way they had a 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:04.679 sort of a system of apprenticeship for learning this, and 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:07.439 the just the amount of time that it takes to 0:23:07.480 --> 0:23:09.919 become an expert in the they had a particularly you know, 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:13.480 advanced kind of toolmaking UM. But the the this year 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:17.200 effort and the social values they attached to sticking with 0:23:17.280 --> 0:23:20.560 it and practicing, the support they provided for learning that way, 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:22.920 I thought, I found that to be all very inspirational 0:23:23.240 --> 0:23:26.280 UM for my own research. So in in in dealing 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.960 with the stone toolmakers in New Guinea, UM, and I'm 0:23:29.960 --> 0:23:31.960 assuming there was a there was a language barrier, there 0:23:32.119 --> 0:23:34.600 is a translator, Well what was how did did that 0:23:34.640 --> 0:23:37.760 reveal anything or back up anything that you any pre 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:41.720 existing thoughts about the effects of tool use and toolmaking 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:45.760 on language and UH and then the origins of language. Yeah, 0:23:45.840 --> 0:23:49.600 well I think it was. There's there's been an idea 0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:54.760 for for some time, UM, which were increasingly are articulating that. Uh. 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:56.480 One of the things that may have led to the 0:23:56.520 --> 0:24:00.200 evolution of language, in terms of an evolutionary press or 0:24:00.359 --> 0:24:02.640 favoring language evolution, is is the need to be able 0:24:02.680 --> 0:24:05.960 to teach each other, uh, and particularly the ability to 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:08.080 teach people that you're related to, because then you get 0:24:08.119 --> 0:24:11.080 sort of the genetic benefit and all that kind of thing. Uh. 0:24:11.119 --> 0:24:15.639 And in New Guinea it was really uh striking the 0:24:15.680 --> 0:24:19.840 amount of social support, um in various ways that was 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:23.679 provided for people learning. UM. I found that very informative. 0:24:23.920 --> 0:24:27.920 So of course language, you know, talking I have to 0:24:28.000 --> 0:24:30.600 do this, don't do that, or we call this this, 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:34.280 you know, and and um also use of language to 0:24:34.280 --> 0:24:37.960 tell stories, which establishes, you know, sort of these cultural norms. 0:24:37.960 --> 0:24:40.320 They tell a story about someone who is a great 0:24:40.359 --> 0:24:43.399 toolmaker because he spent all of his time practicing, and 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:46.240 he neglected his fields and didn't talk to his wife, 0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:48.160 you know, and all that sort of stuff. UM. And 0:24:48.200 --> 0:24:50.639 that the socializing that they do, they sit together and 0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:53.640 it makes it fun. Um. All of these things are 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:57.360 really important to learning something that's very frustrating and difficult. Um, 0:24:57.720 --> 0:24:59.760 you know, maybe you can think of analogies in your 0:24:59.760 --> 0:25:03.280 own experience. Uh. And so that that was really really cool. 0:25:03.440 --> 0:25:06.600 And then just the uh also all of the gesturing, 0:25:07.040 --> 0:25:10.400 the pointing, and just the context of having particular places 0:25:10.400 --> 0:25:12.600 where you do things. You know, this is where we 0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:15.200 go to get the rocks, this is where we all 0:25:15.200 --> 0:25:17.760 sit down and make tools together. There was a structure, 0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:19.920 so there's so much about what they were doing socially 0:25:20.359 --> 0:25:24.600 that resulted in the sustaining of this technology. And I thought, 0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:27.679 you know, obviously you can't just project that into a 0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:30.560 particular past context. But we need to expand our thinking 0:25:30.760 --> 0:25:32.920 broadly to think about these other dimensions and may be 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:36.520 implied by some of the ancient stone tools that we find. Okay, 0:25:36.520 --> 0:25:38.199 time to take a quick break, but we will be 0:25:38.320 --> 0:25:43.360 right back with more of our conversation than Alright, we're back, 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:46.639 let's jump back in now. Obviously this is a different 0:25:46.680 --> 0:25:51.080 question from how the crafting of stone tools might have 0:25:51.160 --> 0:25:54.440 changed our neuro anatomy over time. But I wonder does 0:25:54.520 --> 0:25:57.520 making stone tools just change the way you in your 0:25:57.600 --> 0:26:00.760 life think about your relationship with the earth, Like do 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:03.400 you do you find yourself out walking and looking down 0:26:03.400 --> 0:26:05.280 and saying, oh, there's a good one. No, that's not 0:26:05.320 --> 0:26:08.280 a good one. Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean now, 0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:10.320 I mean, particularly if you've been doing a lot recently, 0:26:10.359 --> 0:26:12.639 you can't see a rock without picturing it breaking, you know, 0:26:13.119 --> 0:26:15.679 it's a uh And of course just doing being an 0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:19.920 archaeologist does that too. Um. You know, I'm always looking 0:26:19.960 --> 0:26:22.680 at little pebbles and my wife will catch me looking 0:26:22.680 --> 0:26:24.720 at the landscaping, you know, and like that would be 0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:28.200 a good hammerstone or something. Okay, you know, uh so 0:26:28.200 --> 0:26:31.760 so yeah, it does influence. Uh some of the resources 0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:34.760 that you're aware of that are really not particularly relevant 0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:37.480 for most people in their daily lives, but we're once 0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:41.240 incredibly central. Well, I think about ways that that that 0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:45.480 type of thinking, um can take on more complex kind 0:26:45.480 --> 0:26:48.560 of mental dimensions. Like I think about the way when 0:26:48.600 --> 0:26:51.760 I go shopping. Uh, if I'm like picking out produced 0:26:51.800 --> 0:26:54.520 to cook with, I can see like a good fresh 0:26:54.520 --> 0:26:57.560 piece of produce and I attribute moral goodness to that, 0:26:58.040 --> 0:27:00.399 and I see like a bad, rotten piece of produce 0:27:00.480 --> 0:27:03.199 and I attribute moral badness to it. Do do you 0:27:03.280 --> 0:27:05.320 do you ever feel inklings of that kind of thing? 0:27:05.400 --> 0:27:09.159 With rocks. Oh well, there's a certainly I don't know 0:27:09.160 --> 0:27:14.080 about the moral dimensions, so certainly, uh, real aesthetic to it. 0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:17.280 I mean, you know, I don't know if you're familiar 0:27:17.359 --> 0:27:19.840 with with flint, but it's a beautiful rock and the uh, 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:22.800 the sound that it makes and the way that it 0:27:22.840 --> 0:27:25.800 breaks when it when it does what you wanted to uh, 0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:29.560 is just infinitely pleasing, you know. And I just got 0:27:29.640 --> 0:27:32.159 some some really nice bassault as well, which is a 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:35.119 very different kind of of rock and has different but 0:27:35.240 --> 0:27:38.240 also really just aesthetically pleasing and you get a real 0:27:38.280 --> 0:27:41.960 pleasure out of out of working in Yeah. So you 0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:44.359 said you can hear the difference between a good break 0:27:44.359 --> 0:27:47.760 and a bad break. Yeah, yeah, this is a question. 0:27:47.800 --> 0:27:50.480 I mean, I think it's important, and I've talked to 0:27:50.480 --> 0:27:52.919 people who are much more experienced stone toolmakers than I 0:27:52.960 --> 0:27:55.520 am that that really emphasized that, you know, the sound 0:27:55.600 --> 0:27:58.760 is important, and in fact, we're just in the process 0:27:58.800 --> 0:28:02.359 of developing and online tests that people can take where 0:28:02.400 --> 0:28:05.600 we play the sounds of a stone flake coming off 0:28:05.960 --> 0:28:08.240 and you use a little slider to say how big 0:28:08.280 --> 0:28:11.240 you think it was. Uh, So we're trying to see 0:28:11.240 --> 0:28:16.080 how much information is actually present in those sounds. Uh, 0:28:16.240 --> 0:28:18.159 I know, I know that when we're sitting around napping, 0:28:18.160 --> 0:28:20.720 everybody's looking napping being a term we used to talk 0:28:20.720 --> 0:28:23.800 about stone tool making, not to be confused with falling sleep, 0:28:23.840 --> 0:28:27.080 but it's knocking the flakes, yeah, and napping. I don't 0:28:27.080 --> 0:28:28.520 know if it's German or something. They don't even know 0:28:28.560 --> 0:28:31.879 where it comes from, but yeah, knocking the flakes off. Anyway, 0:28:31.920 --> 0:28:35.240 we're sitting around knocking the flakes off and uh, you know, 0:28:35.280 --> 0:28:37.720 all staring down at what we're doing. And then somebody 0:28:38.040 --> 0:28:40.200 will strike off a really nice large flake and it 0:28:40.200 --> 0:28:42.800 makes this flat, popping sound and everybody just looks up 0:28:42.960 --> 0:28:47.200 over it. Then all right, you know. Uh so anyway, long, 0:28:47.240 --> 0:28:51.280 so the the we think the sound is is probably 0:28:51.320 --> 0:28:54.280 really important, and we're trying to probe that it. It 0:28:54.360 --> 0:28:57.640 keeps coming up also in some of the neuroimaging research 0:28:57.680 --> 0:29:00.520 that we do, or we look at, uh, stone toolmaking, 0:29:00.520 --> 0:29:03.320 and we get these activity in areas that are more 0:29:03.360 --> 0:29:06.520 classically auditory and initially wasn't expecting to, but of course 0:29:06.520 --> 0:29:10.480 it makes sense. That is interesting and the stuff about 0:29:10.480 --> 0:29:13.920 the toolmaking process giving you all these sort of aesthetic 0:29:14.000 --> 0:29:16.000 values when you look at rocks or when you hear 0:29:16.040 --> 0:29:19.880 the sounds rocks make. Does that, um lead you to 0:29:20.080 --> 0:29:23.920 draw any connections between the origins of tool crafting in 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:29.120 the origins of art um. Yeah, sure, you know, in 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:33.440 a informal sort of way. Um. And and and you 0:29:33.480 --> 0:29:37.000 know people have have written about these ideas, and this 0:29:37.080 --> 0:29:40.320 is another area sort of of contention, particularly with the 0:29:40.400 --> 0:29:45.080 hand axes. Uh. They're beautiful, right, they did. They're very appealing. Um. 0:29:45.600 --> 0:29:48.320 And there's some argument that in fact, they are much 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:53.320 too beautiful and appealing from no apparent functional benefit, that 0:29:53.520 --> 0:29:56.080 this must be one of our earliest examples of you know, 0:29:56.160 --> 0:29:59.840 aesthetic sense. Um. But as I mentioned that, it's awfully 0:30:00.000 --> 0:30:06.040 hard to demonstrate that in a really compelling way to skeptics. Uh. Um, 0:30:06.040 --> 0:30:07.800 it's it's it is hard to say. You do get 0:30:07.840 --> 0:30:11.400 these glimmerings of interesting things like, uh, you know, to 0:30:11.520 --> 0:30:14.360 make a hand act and they'll be a fossil impression 0:30:14.360 --> 0:30:16.200 of a shell that they leave right in the middle 0:30:16.240 --> 0:30:17.880 of the center of one of the sides. You know, 0:30:17.960 --> 0:30:19.640 it's sort of like they showed it off or was 0:30:19.680 --> 0:30:24.120 that an accident? Yuh Um. It is hard to say, um, 0:30:24.320 --> 0:30:27.880 But certainly from our perspective, the symmetry, and many of 0:30:27.880 --> 0:30:31.040 the aspects of these tools are very aesthetically pleasing, so 0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:34.960 we'd like to speculate that there's some relationship. There is 0:30:35.000 --> 0:30:38.080 there any indication with any of the any particular hand 0:30:38.640 --> 0:30:42.600 axes that are particularly beautiful to modern eye, that they 0:30:42.600 --> 0:30:47.240 were in any way, uh, merely ritualistic, that they I mean, 0:30:47.360 --> 0:30:53.600 they were not used. Yeah, so it's a it's a 0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:56.160 bit hard because it's actually not always possible to show 0:30:56.200 --> 0:30:59.040 that that many of the hand axes were used. You 0:30:59.040 --> 0:31:02.320 need particular present vaction conditions and evidence to actually demonstrate 0:31:02.360 --> 0:31:05.000 that something was used, so we rarely get that. On 0:31:05.040 --> 0:31:07.720 the other hand, um, there are examples of things that 0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:10.600 look like they couldn't have been used. Um, these are 0:31:10.720 --> 0:31:13.920 very rare where there's be like this really giant hand 0:31:13.960 --> 0:31:16.320 acts like the length of my forearm, you know, that 0:31:16.480 --> 0:31:20.440 somebody made, and in our imagination, it's pretty hard to 0:31:20.480 --> 0:31:22.880 come up with a functional reason to do that. So 0:31:22.960 --> 0:31:25.800 it seems to have been somebody showing off or just 0:31:25.800 --> 0:31:28.080 trying to produce a piece that is somehow appealing to 0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:32.080 them or something like that. Yeah, it's it's it's elusive. Um, 0:31:32.080 --> 0:31:35.040 there's these these glimmerings of it. So we've already mentioned 0:31:35.040 --> 0:31:40.080 a little bit the possible relationships between tool use and 0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:44.720 UM and the development of human neuro anatomy. Uh, could 0:31:44.720 --> 0:31:46.360 you talk a little bit more about that, like what 0:31:46.600 --> 0:31:48.800 some of the leads are and what is the evidence 0:31:49.520 --> 0:31:52.160 directly for those connections. I know some of it has 0:31:52.200 --> 0:31:55.680 to do with just like correlation of timelines, right right, Well, 0:31:55.680 --> 0:31:57.760 I mean, so there's a basic awareness, so we've had 0:31:57.840 --> 0:32:01.120 for for a long time that you know, there's a 0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:06.680 broad general trend towards brain size increase over human evolution, 0:32:06.760 --> 0:32:09.680 with many exceptions and side branches and so forth that 0:32:09.720 --> 0:32:13.080 we're discovering now. Um, but yeah, I mean, our brains 0:32:13.080 --> 0:32:16.280 are bigger than any of the brains were two millioners ago, 0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:19.720 and there's a trend there. Also, you know, the tools 0:32:19.880 --> 0:32:22.800 over time, with many exceptions and places where it didn't 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:26.760 happen and so forth, but the most u elaborate sophisticated 0:32:26.800 --> 0:32:29.800 tools around hundred thousand years ago. We're much more complex 0:32:29.800 --> 0:32:32.280 than the most elaborate sophisticated tools that were around two 0:32:32.280 --> 0:32:34.400 million years ago. So there's a trend there. And there 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:37.200 there's two trends side by side, and you know, I 0:32:37.320 --> 0:32:41.080 think maybe they're related to each other. Um. Now exactly 0:32:41.080 --> 0:32:43.920 how they're related to each other is a more difficult question. 0:32:43.960 --> 0:32:46.640 You know, did the brain get bigger and for other 0:32:46.720 --> 0:32:49.560 reasons that then spill over into being able to make 0:32:49.600 --> 0:32:53.320 tools or where the tools really important? So that like 0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:55.480 if you could make a if you're a little bit 0:32:55.520 --> 0:32:58.480 faster at making a tool, more reliable at making a tool, 0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:01.040 you had a little bit of a reproductive advantage, then 0:33:01.080 --> 0:33:03.400 you know, then then then maybe the tools drove it. 0:33:03.880 --> 0:33:08.160 Um And those are hard to uh discern exactly. So 0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:10.760 that's why we we try to do some of these 0:33:11.080 --> 0:33:15.040 experiments where we relate the actual process of making tools. 0:33:15.080 --> 0:33:16.920 We've tried to figure out, well, what does it demand 0:33:17.680 --> 0:33:21.560 cognitively neurally if there were pressure on being able to 0:33:21.600 --> 0:33:23.800 make these tools, these are the things then that would 0:33:23.840 --> 0:33:27.120 respond to it. So that's we're just trying to sketch 0:33:27.160 --> 0:33:29.360 out some of the basics still at this point, I 0:33:29.400 --> 0:33:31.760 think to make that link and to do that, you've 0:33:31.760 --> 0:33:35.080 done some research with the neuroimaging and and how that 0:33:35.120 --> 0:33:38.440 relates to thinking about tools to making tools. Could you 0:33:38.520 --> 0:33:42.480 tell us some more about that. Yeah, so, uh, we've 0:33:42.480 --> 0:33:45.800 done a couple of different things. UM. One is what 0:33:45.880 --> 0:33:48.600 most people are probably more familiar with, which is a 0:33:48.680 --> 0:33:54.040 functional neuroimaging, which typically works somehow related to to blood 0:33:54.040 --> 0:33:57.040 flow in the brain responses of neurons, so when they're 0:33:57.080 --> 0:34:00.160 active UM. And so we can isolate those areas of 0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:02.760 the brain UM that are more active when you make 0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:05.360 a particular kind of tool, you know, for instance, the 0:34:05.400 --> 0:34:08.280 hand actions that I was talking about versus the earlier, simpler, 0:34:08.320 --> 0:34:10.560 old one style tools, and we can say, oh, well, 0:34:10.560 --> 0:34:13.160 this is the neural system related to these forms of 0:34:13.200 --> 0:34:17.480 cognition UM that is required to do that. So if 0:34:17.520 --> 0:34:19.640 there was something that changed in the past associated with 0:34:19.640 --> 0:34:23.319 this technology, is most likely to be those systems. Uh. 0:34:23.520 --> 0:34:26.920 Then the other thing that we do is actually structural 0:34:27.000 --> 0:34:31.200 stuff UM, and that comes in two flavors. Also, you can, uh, 0:34:31.280 --> 0:34:35.120 you can look at plastic changes in the brain that 0:34:35.160 --> 0:34:38.960 are caused by behavior. And this is something that in 0:34:39.000 --> 0:34:41.239 the past, I guess about twenty years or so, people 0:34:41.360 --> 0:34:44.640 really become aware that, even over short periods, doing things 0:34:44.640 --> 0:34:47.480 like learning to juggle actually changes the physical structure of 0:34:47.480 --> 0:34:50.920 your brain, especially things like white matter that sort of 0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:54.680 the cables that connect things in your brain. UM. And 0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:57.920 so we've applied that also to stone tool making UH 0:34:57.960 --> 0:35:01.600 and seeing that training to cand access, for instance, will 0:35:01.640 --> 0:35:07.080 increase certain white matter pathways in the brain. UH. Interestingly enough, 0:35:07.120 --> 0:35:09.600 these are also white matter pathways that are larger and 0:35:09.719 --> 0:35:12.560 modern humans versus chimpanzee. So we know that it's something 0:35:12.600 --> 0:35:15.760 that has evolved in our history, and we can relate 0:35:15.800 --> 0:35:18.480 it to a behavior that also is observable to have 0:35:18.600 --> 0:35:20.400 come along at a certain time in our history. So 0:35:20.440 --> 0:35:23.280 we started to strengthen this sorts of infrenial. Well, maybe 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:26.840 these things are related to the evolution of that pathway. UM. 0:35:26.920 --> 0:35:28.960 The other thing that we can do that we're really 0:35:28.960 --> 0:35:32.440 just starting to look at is uh individual differences in 0:35:32.640 --> 0:35:36.400 structure and function of people. So if you get a 0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:39.440 large enough sample, there are small differences, for instance, in 0:35:39.520 --> 0:35:42.960 the rapidity with which people learn uh different kinds of 0:35:42.960 --> 0:35:45.759 stone toolmaking, you know, and you can then correlate with 0:35:45.960 --> 0:35:48.320 starting differences in their brain structure or the way that 0:35:48.360 --> 0:35:50.759 their brain changes over time. And I think that's really 0:35:50.760 --> 0:35:53.359 exciting because we can then also relate that to UH 0:35:53.400 --> 0:35:57.960 cognitive tests. So, you know, some of the initial stuff 0:35:58.000 --> 0:36:00.000 that we're getting is you know, so if you're pretty 0:36:00.040 --> 0:36:04.520 really good at UH planning, for instance, there's a task 0:36:04.600 --> 0:36:06.480 called the Tower of London, which you move sort of 0:36:06.560 --> 0:36:08.840 rings around on three pegs, and you have to do 0:36:08.880 --> 0:36:11.879 it in a particular order. Uh. If you're good at that, 0:36:11.960 --> 0:36:17.759 you learn stone tool making faster slightly. Yeah. I think 0:36:17.800 --> 0:36:20.320 that's really really fast because we're actually making these links 0:36:20.320 --> 0:36:25.399 between particular cognitive operations and kind of types of stone 0:36:25.400 --> 0:36:27.879 toolmaking that we can see in the archeological record. Now, 0:36:28.000 --> 0:36:30.399 now that the test subjects who learned how to make 0:36:30.440 --> 0:36:33.839 stone tools and then you saw the changes in the brain, Um, 0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:38.600 were any of them engaged in any activity that was 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:42.960 comparable to stone tool use or construction, like carp injury 0:36:43.000 --> 0:36:47.759 or anything prior? Uh yeah, Um, So we actually have 0:36:48.239 --> 0:36:52.040 uh data on that that we haven't analyzed yet. We 0:36:52.040 --> 0:36:55.440 have people right about their other hobbies and activities and 0:36:55.480 --> 0:36:57.080 act We've got a big pile of stuff we've still 0:36:57.080 --> 0:36:59.480 got to go through in that study. Um, but you know, 0:37:00.280 --> 0:37:03.240 sort of anecdotally, I do know that there were people 0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:05.600 from a bunch of different kinds of professions, Like we 0:37:05.640 --> 0:37:08.560 had teachers, We did have one sculptor in the project, 0:37:08.600 --> 0:37:13.239 and so there we don't yet have any hard conclusions 0:37:13.280 --> 0:37:15.360 about that because we need to work with the data. 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:18.040 But one general impression I got there was a little 0:37:18.040 --> 0:37:22.160 bit counterintuitive, is that if you have more experience with 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:24.400 some of these things that you might think of as 0:37:24.440 --> 0:37:27.480 being you know, conducive to knowing how to make stone tools, 0:37:27.520 --> 0:37:29.880 you can actually interfere if you're sort of setting your ways. 0:37:30.400 --> 0:37:33.400 Um um so. But there's a lot more to be 0:37:33.440 --> 0:37:34.719 done with that. And one of one of the things 0:37:34.800 --> 0:37:38.200 that it bothers me is we always do these studies, 0:37:38.280 --> 0:37:43.400 you know, with the the typical college undergraduates, and they're 0:37:43.440 --> 0:37:46.919 not generally known for being particularly good with their hands. 0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:52.080 Um so. Um. I would really like to expand into 0:37:52.600 --> 0:37:55.759 different populations in different ages and um but you know, 0:37:56.160 --> 0:37:58.879 we're just getting started, because that's where you would find 0:37:58.960 --> 0:38:03.120 individuals who were skilled craftman uh craft people in other 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:06.160 school in other areas, right yeah, yeah, yeah, and just 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:10.800 just people that are more commonly doing work with their hands, 0:38:11.200 --> 0:38:14.719 you know. Um. Now, I work with people out when 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:18.480 we go do excavations in Ethiopia and the far um 0:38:19.280 --> 0:38:22.080 you know is there's their pastoral lists. They have herds 0:38:22.080 --> 0:38:24.680 of animals, and they you know, they make little walls 0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:26.640 out of stone all the time, and I mean they're 0:38:26.680 --> 0:38:29.080 a lot more handy. They might pick it up a 0:38:29.080 --> 0:38:32.520 lot faster. So obviously getting the population you want is 0:38:32.640 --> 0:38:35.680 one experimental challenge. I would imagine another one if you're 0:38:35.760 --> 0:38:40.400 if you're trying to do neuroimaging while people are engaging 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:43.319 in tool tool making. The I mean, don't you have 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:46.480 to hold still? So for fm R I, Yes, for 0:38:46.600 --> 0:38:49.279 fm R I you do UM. So there is you know, 0:38:49.440 --> 0:38:52.440 a couple kinds of workarounds. UH. One of them is 0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:55.680 the the the the the earliest studies that we did, 0:38:55.800 --> 0:38:59.000 you know, about eighteen years ago or more. Now, we 0:38:59.080 --> 0:39:03.400 used a technique called f DG PET UM and positron 0:39:03.440 --> 0:39:07.080 emission tomography UM is something they don't use a lot 0:39:07.120 --> 0:39:10.080 for research anymore and brain activation. But one of the 0:39:10.080 --> 0:39:13.360 things that lets you do is we injected a radiological 0:39:13.560 --> 0:39:17.280 tracer UH into their bloodstream and this is a glucose 0:39:17.320 --> 0:39:21.000 analog UH and so it's taken up by basically hungry 0:39:21.000 --> 0:39:24.120 cells in the body like they think it's glucose, happens 0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:27.280 in the brain and neurons UM and then it emits 0:39:27.360 --> 0:39:31.200 radiation small amounts, but this can be this can be 0:39:31.239 --> 0:39:33.520 detected by you know, a sensor array around the head. 0:39:33.560 --> 0:39:36.560 So basically you can give somebody this injection. Have them 0:39:36.600 --> 0:39:39.000 do anything you want, really like they could run around 0:39:39.000 --> 0:39:41.320 the block and but we have them sitting in a 0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:43.759 chair and make stone tools in an unconstrained way. Then 0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:45.719 you walk them over to the scanner about half an 0:39:45.719 --> 0:39:48.080 hour later if they've been doing this for half an hour, uh, 0:39:48.120 --> 0:39:52.319 and you collect an image of where the glucose built up. Right. Um. 0:39:52.360 --> 0:39:55.400 So this is great because you can do it um 0:39:55.480 --> 0:39:59.040 and have them do real tasks outside the scanner. UM. 0:39:59.040 --> 0:40:02.680 But it's limited because you know, you've got time averaged 0:40:02.719 --> 0:40:04.799 over half an hour, and you can only do a 0:40:04.840 --> 0:40:07.800 couple of different conditions because it does involve radiation exposure 0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:09.319 and you don't want to give anybody too much and 0:40:09.800 --> 0:40:12.760 so you know, um, the fm R I you mentioned, 0:40:12.760 --> 0:40:14.759 you have to be still. But we can take advantage 0:40:14.760 --> 0:40:18.680 of the fact that a little theoretical, but neuroscientists have 0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:21.600 largely converged on the idea that one of the ways 0:40:21.600 --> 0:40:24.920 we understand what we see other people do is to 0:40:25.480 --> 0:40:31.000 internally simulated ourselves in fact using the same neural systems. Uh. 0:40:31.040 --> 0:40:33.040 And this is probably an important way that we learned 0:40:33.120 --> 0:40:35.800 from others as well, which is an important research question too. 0:40:36.239 --> 0:40:38.000 But we can take advantage of that, and we show 0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:41.600 people films of toolmaking in the scanner and so this 0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:45.600 is most directly relevant to observational understanding and learning from 0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:49.480 other individuals. UM. But it does pretty much use overlapping 0:40:49.520 --> 0:40:52.680 systems with execution and we've shown that. Uh, So that's 0:40:52.680 --> 0:40:56.400 another sort of workaround. And uh a colleague of mine, 0:40:56.600 --> 0:41:01.880 Shelby Putt, is using something called functional near infrared spectrography 0:41:02.000 --> 0:41:06.480 anyway f near as anyway is what I what I remember, UM, 0:41:06.560 --> 0:41:10.400 and that actually uses near infra red visible light that 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:13.360 can penetrate the cranium and get some information on blood 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:15.919 flow from the superficial areas of the brain, and that 0:41:15.960 --> 0:41:18.480 you can wear while you're doing something as well. So 0:41:18.560 --> 0:41:21.799 there's some a few workarounds that you can do to 0:41:21.840 --> 0:41:27.200 actually use neuroimaging techniques. And I wonder, UM, are there 0:41:27.800 --> 0:41:29.640 I don't know if anybody's looked at this, but would 0:41:29.640 --> 0:41:33.600 there be differences in the brain between UM, doing doing 0:41:33.640 --> 0:41:37.520 a task and stone tool creation and simply imagining the task, 0:41:37.680 --> 0:41:39.839 Because of all, you know, we've looked on the show 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:43.640 a bunch of times about simply imagining doing something is 0:41:43.760 --> 0:41:48.200 very similar in the brain to actually doing it. Yeah. UM, 0:41:48.560 --> 0:41:53.440 so it's similar in very interesting and important ways, but 0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:58.480 also different in important ways, and particularly in the context 0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:01.040 of stone toolmaking, where some of the things that we're 0:42:01.560 --> 0:42:06.080 interested in are the actual skill to really deliver the 0:42:06.160 --> 0:42:09.680 right amount of force to the right place. UM. We 0:42:09.719 --> 0:42:14.000 want to actually tap into that somehow. UM. We did 0:42:14.040 --> 0:42:16.879 do an experiment though, UM, in which we were more 0:42:17.040 --> 0:42:22.719 interested in the uh, the kind of planning aspects and 0:42:22.800 --> 0:42:25.359 the evaluation aspects, and we had just people looking at 0:42:25.360 --> 0:42:28.360 stone tools and answering questions about what would be the 0:42:28.360 --> 0:42:30.560 good thing to do next, which is basically asking them 0:42:30.600 --> 0:42:33.600 to mentally imagine and simulate the actions. And you tap 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:37.359 into different aspects of the task demands there. So we 0:42:37.400 --> 0:42:40.160 can use both. But but there are aspects of stone 0:42:40.200 --> 0:42:42.839 tool making they're very reliant I think, on actually doing it. 0:42:43.440 --> 0:42:45.200 All Right, we're gonna take a quick break, but we're 0:42:45.200 --> 0:42:51.520 gonna jump right back in with our interview. Alright, we're back. 0:42:52.640 --> 0:42:54.759 Just recently, I happened to be reading a couple of 0:42:54.800 --> 0:42:59.600 papers in UM I think Frontiers in psychology. I believe 0:43:00.200 --> 0:43:05.040 about the possible role of UM possible role of tool 0:43:05.200 --> 0:43:08.800 use in the development of consciousness. UH. The the idea 0:43:09.080 --> 0:43:12.279 under this new framework was that maybe consciousness has something 0:43:12.320 --> 0:43:15.840 to do with creating states of objectivity in the mind 0:43:16.320 --> 0:43:19.560 where you can sort of like imagine and correctly judge 0:43:19.600 --> 0:43:23.799 the properties of an object that is not yourself. Um. 0:43:24.360 --> 0:43:27.839 I don't know if you've read that, Marissano. No, this 0:43:28.000 --> 0:43:31.360 was I'm sorry. I can't remember the guy's name, but 0:43:31.400 --> 0:43:33.359 he's from Europe somewhere. I think he might have been 0:43:33.560 --> 0:43:36.879 mas streaked. Okay, yeah, I don't I don't know that, 0:43:36.960 --> 0:43:42.040 but um, yeah, I mean there are potential uh links 0:43:42.120 --> 0:43:44.960 between consciouness. This is great for me. Actually, I told 0:43:45.000 --> 0:43:46.640 you how I, you know, got into this. I thought 0:43:46.640 --> 0:43:49.200 I wanted to be a philosopher and I'd love to 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:51.319 get around to consciousness. They say, you know, wait till 0:43:51.320 --> 0:43:53.360 after you have tenure, maybe wait to get longer than that, 0:43:53.920 --> 0:43:58.000 you know, tell your all the time. Um, but I 0:43:58.040 --> 0:44:00.440 do think there is a potential that they're there might 0:44:00.440 --> 0:44:02.520 be some way we could gain insight there. You know, 0:44:02.600 --> 0:44:04.480 if you think about what are the things that actually 0:44:04.520 --> 0:44:09.520 require consciousness, like what is consciousness actually good for? Um? 0:44:09.560 --> 0:44:13.120 And you know some people have said basically nothing uh phenomenal, 0:44:13.360 --> 0:44:15.839 you know, but but if there is something that it's 0:44:15.880 --> 0:44:19.000 good for. It's for tasks that require attention. I mean, 0:44:19.000 --> 0:44:22.200 that's what consciousness is. It's attending to things, uh, really 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:24.719 getting the whole brain on board, uh, you know, and 0:44:24.800 --> 0:44:28.120 focusing on on this one thing. Um. And I think 0:44:28.200 --> 0:44:32.600 that learning a skill like stone toolmaking is the kind 0:44:32.600 --> 0:44:36.879 of thing that demands that concentrated attention. And if consciousness 0:44:36.920 --> 0:44:39.000 is the way that you get that, if consciousness is 0:44:39.040 --> 0:44:42.080 the feeling that you have when you fully attend to things, 0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:45.560 then then then maybe there is a relationship there. I 0:44:45.600 --> 0:44:48.200 mean some of the other things people you can as 0:44:48.239 --> 0:44:51.600 you know, you can get into a car and uh 0:44:51.760 --> 0:44:54.680 start thinking about something else and drive to work when 0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:56.360 you meant to go to the store and so forth, 0:44:56.360 --> 0:44:58.120 which is you know, this sort of zombie stuff is 0:44:58.160 --> 0:45:01.160 pretty scary actually the things that you can you without 0:45:01.200 --> 0:45:03.680 being aware of it. Um. But things people can't do 0:45:03.800 --> 0:45:07.640 are sort of sustain hopefully conversations like what we're having here, uh, 0:45:07.640 --> 0:45:11.440 you know, the stay focused, um, very skilled activities. I mean, 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:14.840 if you're like a race car driver, you wouldn't drift 0:45:14.920 --> 0:45:16.880 away and think about something else that demands your attention, 0:45:16.920 --> 0:45:19.560 demands consciousness. UM. So I think when we pick up 0:45:19.719 --> 0:45:23.520 tasks in the past, UM that required people to really 0:45:23.560 --> 0:45:26.439 focus and attend. Um, we might be picking up things 0:45:26.440 --> 0:45:29.759 that are diagnostic of the need for conscious states. Of course, 0:45:29.800 --> 0:45:32.200 one of the interesting things about tasks like that, like 0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:35.680 work with your hands, is that it requires a lot 0:45:35.719 --> 0:45:38.240 of consciousness when it's new to you, and over time 0:45:38.320 --> 0:45:41.840 requires less and less exactly. And that's why you know, 0:45:42.000 --> 0:45:45.239 unfortunately we we really have to focus on studying uh, 0:45:46.120 --> 0:45:49.080 people who are learning, um, rather than you know, expert 0:45:49.120 --> 0:45:52.239 performance is still interesting in many ways, UM, but if 0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:54.120 you want to get at the real demands for something 0:45:54.160 --> 0:45:57.040 like conscious attention, that's going to happen when you're figuring 0:45:57.080 --> 0:45:59.080 it out later on. And I mentioned to some of 0:45:59.080 --> 0:46:00.839 the people that can make a hand acts really well 0:46:00.840 --> 0:46:03.239 and like, you know, twelve minutes, they don't have to 0:46:03.280 --> 0:46:06.000 think about it at all. UM, Someone like me, I 0:46:06.040 --> 0:46:07.880 have to attend to it so much that what always 0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:11.000 happens is, I know, I give demonstrations of napping and 0:46:11.000 --> 0:46:13.839 then I will always wind up cutting myself because trying 0:46:13.880 --> 0:46:15.560 to talk about it and do us you know, and 0:46:15.800 --> 0:46:18.680 you're not focusing on it. UM. So yeah, is the 0:46:18.719 --> 0:46:20.719 more skills you get, the more you can ignore the 0:46:20.760 --> 0:46:23.080 low level stuff and think about something else, you know, 0:46:23.280 --> 0:46:26.440 like making it a really appealing hand ax versus just 0:46:26.480 --> 0:46:29.359 trying to get something you can use. Do you happen 0:46:29.400 --> 0:46:32.200 to find that the most beautiful hand axes are also 0:46:32.320 --> 0:46:35.919 the best to like, the most functional, useful or those 0:46:35.960 --> 0:46:40.080 things generally aligned or not aligned. You'd be surprised the 0:46:40.120 --> 0:46:43.440 things that we don't know about stone tools because of 0:46:43.480 --> 0:46:45.880 the amount of time that it takes to do proper 0:46:45.920 --> 0:46:49.439 experimentation and actually test these sorts of things. So that's 0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:51.640 something that people are interested in, but there's only been 0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:55.560 a handful of experiments UM that actually looked at you know, 0:46:55.719 --> 0:46:57.920 is the symmetry of the hand acts make it a 0:46:58.000 --> 0:47:01.360 more or less effective butchery tool? Um? Does the straightness 0:47:01.400 --> 0:47:03.759 of the edge matter? Um? Do any of the things 0:47:03.760 --> 0:47:07.360 to the thinness of it matter? Uh? And to the 0:47:07.400 --> 0:47:09.600 extent that has been shown, like the things like symmetry 0:47:09.600 --> 0:47:12.120 don't seem to really matter very much for the function 0:47:12.480 --> 0:47:16.360 uh the Uh the evenness of the edge does seem 0:47:16.400 --> 0:47:20.120 to be important, and that might be aesthetic for some people. UM. 0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:23.000 The sort of extreme thinning of the hand axes that 0:47:23.040 --> 0:47:26.120 we find very appealing, I think because it's hard to 0:47:26.160 --> 0:47:30.080 do is something that you know, maybe somewhat beneficial because 0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:33.160 you have the tool you're carrying around is lighter. Um. 0:47:33.560 --> 0:47:36.040 But thus far, there's not a lot of evidence that 0:47:36.120 --> 0:47:38.799 things we think of is really aesthetically important about hand 0:47:38.840 --> 0:47:43.520 axes are particularly functionally important. So there's another question we 0:47:43.560 --> 0:47:45.120 may not know the answer to. But do you think 0:47:45.160 --> 0:47:48.880 in general, is it more widely assumed that people in 0:47:49.000 --> 0:47:53.480 the prehistoric times would make a hand ax and and 0:47:53.680 --> 0:47:56.000 that would be their hand accidentally carried around with them, 0:47:56.080 --> 0:47:58.480 or is it something that would be made on site 0:47:58.520 --> 0:48:02.560 when it was needed. Yeah, I mean, I think it's 0:48:02.600 --> 0:48:06.160 important to uh, for archaeologists and for everybody to to 0:48:06.239 --> 0:48:08.400 remember when we think about the past that these is 0:48:08.400 --> 0:48:12.000 a huge amount of time over a large area, UM, 0:48:12.040 --> 0:48:15.239 and they probably did just about everything at one uh 0:48:15.520 --> 0:48:19.480 time or another. Um. I it's some sites where you're 0:48:19.520 --> 0:48:23.000 sitting close to raw materials, uh, you know, like there's 0:48:23.000 --> 0:48:25.920 a site of box Grove, it's it's pretty close to 0:48:25.920 --> 0:48:28.919 these chalk cliffs where the flint is coming right out. 0:48:29.800 --> 0:48:32.960 They seem to have used them lightly and discarded them, 0:48:33.040 --> 0:48:35.560 probably made them pretty close to the time that they 0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:38.480 were going to use them, and that sort of thing. UM. Elsewhere. 0:48:38.560 --> 0:48:40.920 They may have actually carried them around for when you 0:48:41.000 --> 0:48:43.080 don't have as much rock, you know, and you're going 0:48:43.120 --> 0:48:44.960 far from the source, you probably take the hand x 0:48:45.000 --> 0:48:46.880 with you, and when it gets dull, you re sharpen 0:48:46.960 --> 0:48:49.320 it and all these sorts of things. Maybe you keep 0:48:49.440 --> 0:48:51.360 using it till you've whittled it down the way we 0:48:51.400 --> 0:48:54.000 do a pencil nub, you know. Uh, so this is 0:48:54.040 --> 0:48:58.399 an area people try to understand, um, basically the economics. 0:48:58.680 --> 0:49:01.080 This is sort of an economic question. Uh, you know, 0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:03.520 when does it make sense to just toss the hand 0:49:03.520 --> 0:49:06.640 axe versus you know, carrying it with you and resharpening it. 0:49:06.680 --> 0:49:08.880 And it seems to be driven by the things you 0:49:08.880 --> 0:49:11.279 would expect it to be driven by, like distances from 0:49:11.360 --> 0:49:13.359 raw materials and the kind of activities that you're doing. 0:49:13.800 --> 0:49:16.600 So you probably get asked this question a lot, especially 0:49:16.880 --> 0:49:19.560 this year since it's such a milestone year for the film. 0:49:19.640 --> 0:49:22.080 But we recently talked about the about two thousand and 0:49:22.120 --> 0:49:24.960 one of Space Odyssey on the show, Um, what are 0:49:25.000 --> 0:49:28.439 your thoughts about two thousand one Space Audience? Specifically of course, 0:49:28.520 --> 0:49:34.279 these scenes of these these ancient creatures engaging in tool 0:49:34.400 --> 0:49:37.879 used for the first time. Yeah, well, I mean as 0:49:37.920 --> 0:49:39.920 you may you may be aware of that two thousand 0:49:40.000 --> 0:49:45.880 one was actually UH produced in consultation with archaeologists and 0:49:45.920 --> 0:49:51.080 palaeo anthropologists, so it was informed by current UH speculations 0:49:51.160 --> 0:49:55.399 hypotheses about the origins of technology at the time. UM 0:49:55.719 --> 0:50:00.319 I think that we have a a different view and now, 0:50:00.680 --> 0:50:04.880 UM I think if you would ask most most archaeologists 0:50:05.320 --> 0:50:08.000 about the origins of tool use and technology, they get 0:50:08.080 --> 0:50:12.799 very excited about things like cooperation and collaboration UH as 0:50:13.000 --> 0:50:15.759 as being a real turning point for for humans, and 0:50:16.000 --> 0:50:18.640 we are a very cooperative species and this makes a 0:50:18.719 --> 0:50:22.160 lot of things possible, whereas that vision UM was much 0:50:22.200 --> 0:50:25.719 more about the importance of killing each other UH and 0:50:25.840 --> 0:50:29.200 the sort of you know, the the killer ape basically. 0:50:29.560 --> 0:50:31.680 And if you want to take a step back from that, 0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:33.840 there's a lot of my my other colleagues and in 0:50:33.880 --> 0:50:36.799 anthropology and other disciplines who might point out that these 0:50:36.800 --> 0:50:39.960 things are heavily influenced by our own social views at 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:42.799 the time about what's important, because some of it's is 0:50:43.000 --> 0:50:46.080 you know, UH, myth making about human origins and what 0:50:46.120 --> 0:50:48.359 we think human nature is. And after World War Two 0:50:48.360 --> 0:50:50.439 it seemed pretty obvious we're all about killing each other 0:50:51.080 --> 0:50:53.640 right now, we'd like to think it's about cooperation. Uh, 0:50:53.760 --> 0:50:55.319 I don't want to go too heavy on that, because 0:50:55.320 --> 0:50:59.680 there actually is uh empirical are there are empirical arguments 0:50:59.719 --> 0:51:02.680 that they can be made about this, in particular looking 0:51:02.719 --> 0:51:06.719 at comparisons across species and the importance of cooperation versus 0:51:06.760 --> 0:51:10.120 competition in different contexts. So there is a framework for 0:51:10.120 --> 0:51:12.840 for doing this. But it is interesting to think about 0:51:12.840 --> 0:51:16.200 our biases. But are certainly two thousand one fantastic film. 0:51:16.239 --> 0:51:19.520 I like I wish the introductory segment where a little 0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:21.680 bit quicker because I like to use it in my classes. 0:51:21.680 --> 0:51:23.720 But we had to sit there for like half a 0:51:24.480 --> 0:51:27.759 students aren't up for it. Um. Yeah, so I think 0:51:27.760 --> 0:51:30.680 it's uh. They did their best to work with the 0:51:30.680 --> 0:51:34.319 current understanding at the time. It's a great movie. This 0:51:34.440 --> 0:51:36.719 is another realm where we might ask you to speculate 0:51:36.840 --> 0:51:39.680 if you're comfortable. But one of the things we talked 0:51:39.719 --> 0:51:42.440 about with two thousand one was the idea that you know, 0:51:42.520 --> 0:51:46.560 so when the the ape like creatures first encounter the 0:51:46.600 --> 0:51:49.759 monolith in the in the Savannah, um, they they are 0:51:49.960 --> 0:51:53.200 changed in some way. But it's often assumed that maybe 0:51:53.480 --> 0:51:56.200 this is some alien technology that goes in and changes 0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:59.520 something in their brain. But an interpretation we talked about 0:51:59.560 --> 0:52:01.480 in the episod so it is one that that's actually 0:52:01.480 --> 0:52:04.640 not what happens. That what happens is they see this 0:52:04.760 --> 0:52:07.560 object in their environment that it's nothing like the rest 0:52:07.560 --> 0:52:11.160 of their environment. It looks completely artificial, and it's simply 0:52:11.360 --> 0:52:15.359 seeing that spurred something in their imagination that allowed them 0:52:15.400 --> 0:52:19.000 to to take up the tools. Um. And that makes 0:52:19.000 --> 0:52:23.239 me wonder about what what what would you imagine could 0:52:23.320 --> 0:52:26.799 be the role of simply seeing things in the environment 0:52:27.280 --> 0:52:32.479 to inspire the taking up and creation of tools. Yeah, 0:52:32.520 --> 0:52:37.279 I mean it's probably, uh, probably very important. I think 0:52:37.320 --> 0:52:40.960 this is the kind of thing that that archaeologists are 0:52:42.480 --> 0:52:46.239 loath to actually talk about because you're talking about like, uh, 0:52:46.320 --> 0:52:49.799 you know, individual acts of invention um that happened in 0:52:49.840 --> 0:52:52.640 the past. Whereas the sort of the record that we 0:52:52.719 --> 0:52:57.080 have is this really really high level, average sort of 0:52:57.200 --> 0:53:00.560 sort of thing. Um. So it's hard for us. I mean, clearly, 0:53:01.120 --> 0:53:04.160 you know, we shouldn't forget these things are inventions. They're 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:08.160 not like mutations or just inevitable things that happened like 0:53:08.320 --> 0:53:11.640 somebody at some point had a new idea and did it, 0:53:11.719 --> 0:53:14.239 and then whether they were inspired by particular things in 0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:17.120 their environment. We like to think about, well, what kind 0:53:17.200 --> 0:53:19.600 what were the kinds of things that they commonly encountered, 0:53:19.640 --> 0:53:21.919 and we could have some leverage to talk about that. 0:53:22.000 --> 0:53:23.760 You know, if they moved into a bit of a 0:53:23.800 --> 0:53:26.399 of a foraging niche, then they may be around these 0:53:26.440 --> 0:53:30.560 animal bones, you know, if there are stones available, Uh, 0:53:30.719 --> 0:53:34.520 if they cracked nuts, um occasionally, as chimpanzees do, you're 0:53:34.520 --> 0:53:37.560 going to accidentally fracture the rock and and you know, 0:53:37.680 --> 0:53:41.640 you could imagine imagine an aha moment there, but those 0:53:41.640 --> 0:53:45.160 are things that are very difficult to actually get to. Um. 0:53:45.239 --> 0:53:47.680 What I what I will say about the vision in 0:53:48.000 --> 0:53:50.920 in two thousand one is that it is an idea 0:53:51.040 --> 0:53:54.400 of a transformative moment um. And this is something that 0:53:54.520 --> 0:53:57.280 was also very current and maybe is to a certain extent, 0:53:57.320 --> 0:54:00.560 the idea that the invention of the earliest owned tools 0:54:00.600 --> 0:54:03.799 should be some kind of transformative, great leap forward that 0:54:03.880 --> 0:54:06.640 you know, that changed everything, and that doesn't seem to 0:54:06.640 --> 0:54:08.959 be the case actually. I mean, we now have one 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:12.360 site at three point three million where they made stone tools. 0:54:12.640 --> 0:54:16.640 The next one is at two point six million, with 0:54:16.800 --> 0:54:19.600 nothing in between. Now we're going to find eventually something, 0:54:19.719 --> 0:54:21.839 but it's not a lot. It didn't like take off 0:54:21.920 --> 0:54:23.719 and go crazy. And and even at the two point 0:54:23.800 --> 0:54:26.359 six there's just a few and it's not around two 0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:28.719 million years ago that they start doing this regularly in 0:54:28.760 --> 0:54:31.400 a lot of places. So there's this huge long period 0:54:31.400 --> 0:54:33.919 of time where they're again stone tools. Maybe you could 0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:36.799 do it sometimes when it's worth it, I don't know. 0:54:37.080 --> 0:54:39.640 And so it wasn't like this sort of you know 0:54:39.719 --> 0:54:42.360 gun that went off and everything changed, which is a 0:54:42.400 --> 0:54:44.759 different perspective than what we used to have. Well it 0:54:44.800 --> 0:54:47.400 thinks it makes me think about even today and in 0:54:47.520 --> 0:54:50.399 modern society. You know, you have a new business as 0:54:50.400 --> 0:54:52.759 a new type of product, and it's always losing money 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:56.839 at first, right. Uh, it makes me wonder if, yeah, 0:54:57.480 --> 0:55:00.880 were these things um more trouble than they were worth 0:55:01.000 --> 0:55:03.520 to begin with, and how if that's the case, how 0:55:03.520 --> 0:55:05.560 would you get through that? You know, how would you 0:55:05.920 --> 0:55:09.200 trust it to keep making them? Yeah, I mean it's 0:55:09.239 --> 0:55:12.280 hard to say. I think you know, my my favorite 0:55:12.280 --> 0:55:15.160 sort of hypothesis right now is that, yeah, it was 0:55:15.239 --> 0:55:19.240 just too too hard in particular the investment in learning 0:55:19.239 --> 0:55:21.920 how to do this. Uh, you know they did there 0:55:22.520 --> 0:55:25.360 were smaller brained individuals. They didn't have the same learning 0:55:25.360 --> 0:55:27.959 capacities that we have. And for whatever at the time, 0:55:28.000 --> 0:55:30.600 I think there was too steep a cost, and occasionally 0:55:30.640 --> 0:55:33.279 it seemed worth it, but only a few individuals would 0:55:33.320 --> 0:55:35.319 learn and and then they had to spend so much 0:55:35.320 --> 0:55:37.399 time figuring it out that you know, it was didn't 0:55:37.400 --> 0:55:39.160 really give them that much of an advantage, and then 0:55:39.200 --> 0:55:41.200 it was just lost in a small population. And no, 0:55:41.280 --> 0:55:43.839 we did it for however long you know, um, but 0:55:44.480 --> 0:55:46.480 you go on long enough, and there may have been 0:55:46.640 --> 0:55:50.160 some selection either on the toolmaking or on other things 0:55:50.160 --> 0:55:52.759 that they were doing that eventually lowered the costs for 0:55:52.800 --> 0:55:55.040 them a little bit. It wasn't quite such a stretch 0:55:55.120 --> 0:55:56.840 to be able to do this, and that's where I 0:55:56.880 --> 0:55:59.719 have the chance of it actually paying for itself, and 0:55:59.719 --> 0:56:02.440 then it would take off. So that's currently because when 0:56:02.480 --> 0:56:04.279 it does take off around two million years ago, it 0:56:04.320 --> 0:56:06.680 is very close in time to the appearance of Homo erectus, 0:56:06.960 --> 0:56:10.600 which has a larger brain and body, so you know, coincidence. 0:56:10.960 --> 0:56:13.760 But they messed around for a long time until something 0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:17.799 changed about the cost benefit equation. I think so many 0:56:17.840 --> 0:56:23.240 tantalizing mystery I'm just imagining these sort of many dark ages. Uh, 0:56:23.560 --> 0:56:25.799 and they're learning Huh. Yeah, I mean if you think 0:56:25.840 --> 0:56:28.759 of these small groups very isolated, you know, I mean, 0:56:28.800 --> 0:56:30.680 somebody could have a great idea and then you know, 0:56:30.760 --> 0:56:33.640 they have a bad year and everybody dies and nobody 0:56:33.640 --> 0:56:37.960 thinks of it again for five years. I'm sorry we 0:56:38.080 --> 0:56:42.640 keep asking you to speculate about stuff. Uh, these are 0:56:42.640 --> 0:56:44.319 the kind of questions we love to ask. But yeah, 0:56:44.360 --> 0:56:47.520 I mean, obviously people should understand that they're there are 0:56:47.520 --> 0:56:51.040 tons of limitations on what we can know empirically about 0:56:51.080 --> 0:56:53.680 things this far in the past. So besides what we've 0:56:53.719 --> 0:56:55.880 talked about so far, what else do you find most 0:56:55.960 --> 0:57:00.319 fascinating about studying stone age technology? Like? What what really 0:57:00.360 --> 0:57:03.600 gets your gears going about it? I mean, I I guess, uh, 0:57:03.800 --> 0:57:06.680 one thing, maybe it's a bit a bit technical. We 0:57:06.800 --> 0:57:10.880 we we started to talk about the relationship between stone 0:57:10.920 --> 0:57:14.520 toolmaking and language, and uh, one of the ideas that 0:57:14.560 --> 0:57:18.400 we discussed is that it created selective pressures of benefit 0:57:18.560 --> 0:57:22.080 for being able to communicate better, which eventually led to language. 0:57:22.080 --> 0:57:26.480 But there's another idea that, uh, that there's a more 0:57:26.520 --> 0:57:30.040 direct connection between toolmaking language because they might depend upon 0:57:30.280 --> 0:57:34.000 some of the same cognitive and neural systems, right. Uh 0:57:34.240 --> 0:57:36.600 So this is an old idea, you know, relating to 0:57:36.640 --> 0:57:38.840 the idea that there's kind of a syntax of action, 0:57:39.200 --> 0:57:43.040 that the way we structure uh, sequential actions is similar 0:57:43.240 --> 0:57:46.280 to the way we structure words and a sentence. In fact, 0:57:46.360 --> 0:57:50.640 words and a sentence are sequential actions. Uh. So there's 0:57:50.680 --> 0:57:54.160 clearly some really important differences. Um. But there's also the 0:57:54.160 --> 0:57:56.920 possibility that some of the systems that we use just 0:57:57.000 --> 0:58:00.680 to put together complex sequences of actions and toolmaking are 0:58:00.840 --> 0:58:03.439 also important to language evolution, so that if you had 0:58:03.800 --> 0:58:07.280 selection acting on toolmaking, it would provide a foundation from 0:58:07.320 --> 0:58:10.160 which then you could get language evolution. And you know, 0:58:10.520 --> 0:58:13.720 some of the work that we've done generally supports that 0:58:13.880 --> 0:58:17.439 idea that there is overlap, particularly in what people call 0:58:17.800 --> 0:58:22.360 Broca's area of the inferior frontal gyrus, which is related 0:58:22.400 --> 0:58:26.480 to language processing but also uh to putting together complex 0:58:26.480 --> 0:58:29.959 actions of other kinds. Uh. And so currently what we're 0:58:30.000 --> 0:58:33.160 working on is actually putting people in the scanner or 0:58:33.200 --> 0:58:37.200 showing them videos of toolmaking, have them listen to language. UH. 0:58:37.440 --> 0:58:40.920 We use computational methods to to parse the structure of 0:58:40.920 --> 0:58:43.840 the language and the structure of the toolmaking, and we 0:58:43.920 --> 0:58:46.760 see if the kind of the syntactic structure that we 0:58:46.800 --> 0:58:49.120 see in the toolmaking and in the language produces the 0:58:49.160 --> 0:58:52.440 same responses in the brain. And uh, that's not done yet, 0:58:52.520 --> 0:58:55.280 but so far we have some encouraging results along those lines. 0:58:55.600 --> 0:59:00.840 So this, this idea that uh, basic action sequencing and 0:59:00.880 --> 0:59:03.760 statistical learning that you would have for putting together complex 0:59:03.760 --> 0:59:06.680 actions provided the foundation for language evolution is something that 0:59:06.680 --> 0:59:09.920 I would like to continue pursuing. That's fascinating. I mean, 0:59:10.480 --> 0:59:12.680 if you even if you just think about your experience 0:59:13.040 --> 0:59:17.080 in there, there are ways that putting together a sentence 0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:21.240 can sometimes feel somewhat analogous to step by step activities 0:59:21.240 --> 0:59:23.600 with the hands, like the way that uh, you know, 0:59:23.640 --> 0:59:25.640 if you're used to speaking or if you're used to 0:59:25.680 --> 0:59:27.880 doing an activity, it can happen like we were talking about, 0:59:27.920 --> 0:59:30.440 mostly unconsciously. But then there are those moments where you 0:59:30.480 --> 0:59:33.720 feel you're maybe ready to break the sentence or something, 0:59:33.760 --> 0:59:36.720 and you slow down and it becomes more conscious. Um 0:59:37.120 --> 0:59:39.840 in anyway, that's just what made that made me think 0:59:39.840 --> 0:59:43.440 of very much. So, uh, you know that Morton Christiansen 0:59:43.560 --> 0:59:45.680 is another colleague of mine that's written a bit about 0:59:45.720 --> 0:59:48.720 the concept of language as a skill, and you think 0:59:48.760 --> 0:59:50.959 about it, uh, try not to think about it while 0:59:51.000 --> 0:59:53.840 I'm speaking. And that that's the point, because if you're 0:59:53.880 --> 0:59:57.080 attending to exactly how you're enunciating the words and so forth, 0:59:57.120 --> 0:59:58.960 you lose the threat of what you're trying to say. 0:59:59.080 --> 1:00:01.480 So you need to be able to very rapidly translate 1:00:01.520 --> 1:00:04.520 sort of a high level and tension into very particular 1:00:04.600 --> 1:00:07.520 motor actions. And then when you talk to me, I 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:10.280 have to very rapidly translate what you're saying into a 1:00:10.360 --> 1:00:12.640 sort of a loose summary. I mean, I can't remember 1:00:12.680 --> 1:00:14.680 exactly what you said five minutes ago, but hopefully I 1:00:14.720 --> 1:00:18.479 have a general idea of what we've been talking about. Uh. 1:00:18.520 --> 1:00:20.680 And so this is skill. It's it's just like when 1:00:20.720 --> 1:00:23.120 you uh A famous example a is you know, skiing 1:00:23.200 --> 1:00:25.919 down a mountain slope. I mean, initially, if you don't 1:00:25.920 --> 1:00:28.360 know what you're doing, you're focused on how you're positioning 1:00:28.360 --> 1:00:31.320 your feet and so forth. Later on you can ignore 1:00:31.360 --> 1:00:34.400 that and focus on, you know, skiing the slope, and 1:00:34.400 --> 1:00:36.760 and so your focus of attention moves um in this 1:00:36.880 --> 1:00:38.760 the same in language and toolmaking, and I think the 1:00:38.800 --> 1:00:41.560 neural systems are related to each other. Yeah, it's kind 1:00:41.600 --> 1:00:43.600 of like how if you I think they're actually even 1:00:44.240 --> 1:00:46.760 studies of this that if you focus too consciously on, 1:00:46.840 --> 1:00:50.600 say like shooting a basketball, you get worse at it. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 1:00:50.680 --> 1:00:53.360 Experience the flow, you know, you have to, you have to, 1:00:54.000 --> 1:00:56.640 you have to automate a lot of it. Well, Detrich, 1:00:56.720 --> 1:00:58.480 this has been so great. Thank you so much for 1:00:58.560 --> 1:01:05.920 joining us today. Thank you, thank you. I really enjoyed it. Alright, 1:01:05.960 --> 1:01:08.680 So we hope you enjoyed our conversation with Dietrich Stout. 1:01:08.680 --> 1:01:11.120 I know Robert and I did. Um So if you 1:01:11.160 --> 1:01:13.280 want to follow up and check out any of the 1:01:13.760 --> 1:01:16.080 centers we mentioned, like the Center for Mind Braining Culture 1:01:16.160 --> 1:01:18.880 that's c MBC, dot Emory, dot E d U, but 1:01:18.960 --> 1:01:21.080 you can also we'll put a link to that on 1:01:21.120 --> 1:01:23.720 the landing page for this podcast. You can also check 1:01:23.760 --> 1:01:27.680 out the Paleolithic Technology Laboratory site at scholar Blogs, dot Emory, 1:01:27.760 --> 1:01:30.160 dot E d U, slash Stout Lab. And then there 1:01:30.240 --> 1:01:33.760 was one more thing that Dietrich emailed me about. So 1:01:33.960 --> 1:01:36.920 he talked in the interview about the role of sound 1:01:37.560 --> 1:01:41.160 in toolmaking, and so he sent me actually a link 1:01:41.240 --> 1:01:43.960 to a study where you can be a participant in 1:01:44.160 --> 1:01:46.560 trying to It's a study where they ask you about 1:01:46.600 --> 1:01:49.040 your experience with certain types of you know, like playing 1:01:49.040 --> 1:01:52.240 a musical instrument or something like that, and then you 1:01:52.280 --> 1:01:56.120 get to listen to different stone napping sounds and estimate 1:01:56.240 --> 1:01:58.760 the size of the chip that was produced by the 1:01:58.800 --> 1:02:01.400 sound you're listening to. Oh nice, I guess not produced 1:02:01.400 --> 1:02:04.120 by the sound, but that the sound was correlated with 1:02:04.400 --> 1:02:06.720 And we'll make sure the link for that is on 1:02:06.760 --> 1:02:09.200 the landing page as well. 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