1 00:00:13,380 --> 00:00:13,920 Speaker 1: Hi, you guys. 2 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:17,860 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition. So Robin Murphy 3 00:00:17,900 --> 00:00:22,890 Speaker 2: was just 17 when she disappeared in 1995. Police initially 4 00:00:22,930 --> 00:00:25,850 Speaker 2: believed she may have run away, but as the search continued, 5 00:00:25,890 --> 00:00:31,210 Speaker 2: disturbing clues emerged, including a connection to Howard John Gombert Jr., 6 00:00:31,390 --> 00:00:34,260 Speaker 2: who was a convicted violent offender who was never charged 7 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:39,309 Speaker 2: in Robin's disappearance. So now, 30 years later, investigative journalist 8 00:00:39,370 --> 00:00:43,350 Speaker 2: Paul Solitaroff is revisiting the case in The Devil's Quarry 2, 9 00:00:43,350 --> 00:00:47,390 Speaker 2: digging into the original investigation, the people he's uncovered, and 10 00:00:47,430 --> 00:00:50,339 Speaker 2: what investigators might have missed, and whether we are any 11 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 2: closer to finding out what happened to Robin Murphy. 12 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: Hello. Hello. How are you, Paul? 13 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:57,100 Speaker 3: Jennifer, how are you? 14 00:00:57,620 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. 15 00:00:59,380 --> 00:01:00,639 Speaker 3: I'm delighted to be here. 16 00:01:01,180 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: We are delighted to have you. 17 00:01:02,300 --> 00:01:07,130 Speaker 3: I'm delighted, at least for the hour we're on. not 18 00:01:07,170 --> 00:01:11,950 Speaker 3: to be writing or reporting about a pedophile. 19 00:01:12,470 --> 00:01:13,110 Speaker 1: I don't blame you. 20 00:01:13,510 --> 00:01:15,490 Speaker 2: And honestly, I was going to ask you, I wasn't 21 00:01:15,510 --> 00:01:18,459 Speaker 2: going to start out with this question, but in what 22 00:01:18,520 --> 00:01:21,500 Speaker 2: you do, do you ever get, and I've asked a 23 00:01:21,540 --> 00:01:25,700 Speaker 2: lot of my guests this because we do true crime here, 24 00:01:25,740 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: but do you ever get nervous? I mean, just reading 25 00:01:29,110 --> 00:01:35,390 Speaker 2: about some of these just atrocious, disgusting, awful, horrible people, 26 00:01:35,850 --> 00:01:38,170 Speaker 2: And then talking to people that actually have been interviewing 27 00:01:38,270 --> 00:01:42,250 Speaker 2: everyone around them. First of all, I should tell our guests, 28 00:01:42,430 --> 00:01:44,610 Speaker 2: they may already know this, but we are talking about 29 00:01:44,730 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 2: a fellow, well, an investigative journalist, a very famous, important one, 30 00:01:47,940 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: but also a podcaster. So guys, we're talking, by the way, 31 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,640 Speaker 2: about podcasts. That's what the Devil's Quarry is. And by 32 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:59,860 Speaker 2: the way, also, your voice is very mesmerizing, my friend. 33 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:00,900 Speaker 3: Thank you. 34 00:02:01,140 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: Do you hear that a lot? 35 00:02:02,180 --> 00:02:06,230 Speaker 3: Yes. I mostly hear that I've got a great face 36 00:02:06,370 --> 00:02:12,519 Speaker 3: for radio. But yes, occasionally someone will throw me a 37 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:18,380 Speaker 3: breadcrumb about my voice. So let me answer the question 38 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 3: you put, which is, do sociopaths like Gombert scare me? 39 00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:28,780 Speaker 3: The answer is no. So I've spent my entire life 40 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:34,260 Speaker 3: in the gym. I'm a lot scarier. in a dark alley. Really? 41 00:02:34,360 --> 00:02:38,940 Speaker 2: Well, listen, I don't, I, this guy freaks me out. 42 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:43,660 Speaker 2: I think in part, it amazes me how he had 43 00:02:43,970 --> 00:02:48,950 Speaker 2: vetted the law for so long and was walking the 44 00:02:48,990 --> 00:02:53,870 Speaker 2: streets and just how repulsive he actually was. And I'm 45 00:02:53,889 --> 00:02:57,630 Speaker 2: just talking about, you know, his behaviors. 46 00:02:57,750 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 1: Yes. The murders. Yes. But also just, I don't, and 47 00:03:02,100 --> 00:03:03,250 Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you questions about it. 48 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: I don't understand how this guy was such a raging 49 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:09,980 Speaker 2: pedophile and never got caught for that, but I'm way, okay, 50 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: let's go. I'm getting way ahead of myself with you, 51 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:14,820 Speaker 2: my friend. First, I want to know, tell me how 52 00:03:15,580 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: Robin Murphy's case first came onto your radar and why, 53 00:03:20,100 --> 00:03:21,540 Speaker 2: how did you realize there was still a story to 54 00:03:21,580 --> 00:03:22,579 Speaker 2: tell 30 years later? 55 00:03:23,060 --> 00:03:27,380 Speaker 3: Oh my God. Well, first of all, so I've spent 56 00:03:27,500 --> 00:03:29,970 Speaker 3: the better part of 38 years getting the wrong information 57 00:03:32,010 --> 00:03:34,270 Speaker 3: convicted out of prison, right? I know. 58 00:03:34,310 --> 00:03:35,150 Speaker 1: I read that about you. 59 00:03:35,350 --> 00:03:38,870 Speaker 3: Amazing. I've walked innocent men off death row. I've walked 60 00:03:38,910 --> 00:03:41,630 Speaker 3: them out of LWOP, life without parole. 61 00:03:42,090 --> 00:03:44,460 Speaker 1: Is that really your passion first? Or is it right? 62 00:03:44,470 --> 00:03:45,180 Speaker 1: I mean, all of this. 63 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:53,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. I am a justice avenger. Some journalists are 64 00:03:55,740 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 3: interested in the exoneration stuff. That's half the job. For me, 65 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:08,380 Speaker 3: the full job is extricating the wrongly convicted from prison 66 00:04:08,780 --> 00:04:11,850 Speaker 3: and replacing them in those cells with the crooked cops, 67 00:04:12,390 --> 00:04:18,570 Speaker 3: the corrupt prosecutors, the in-the-bag judges who all played some 68 00:04:19,210 --> 00:04:25,659 Speaker 3: knowing part in these wrongful convictions, typically of young black 69 00:04:25,760 --> 00:04:32,029 Speaker 3: men from, say, West Philly or South L.A. or Southside Chicago. 70 00:04:32,130 --> 00:04:37,390 Speaker 3: So I've done deep, deep investigative dives into some of 71 00:04:37,410 --> 00:04:43,650 Speaker 3: the most troubled and troublesome police departments in America. Why 72 00:04:43,750 --> 00:04:51,690 Speaker 3: this story? After three decades of investigating crooked cops, gang 73 00:04:51,730 --> 00:04:59,950 Speaker 3: cops in LA, crooked homicide cops in Chicago, crooked elite 74 00:05:00,630 --> 00:05:05,419 Speaker 3: field narcotics cops in West Philly, there was one itch 75 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:09,580 Speaker 3: I had to scratch yet. And that was if it's 76 00:05:09,700 --> 00:05:15,260 Speaker 3: this bad in big city, uh, police departments. So I 77 00:05:15,460 --> 00:05:19,610 Speaker 3: often worked hand in glove with the mothership, the innocence 78 00:05:19,690 --> 00:05:27,409 Speaker 3: project office, the one that started the entire innocence movement, the, uh, 79 00:05:28,060 --> 00:05:33,219 Speaker 3: the guys, Peter Neufeld, Barry Scheck, Nina Morrison, who not 80 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 3: only spearheaded this notion of provable forensic innocence, but have now, 81 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,340 Speaker 3: I don't know what the latest count is, we're up 82 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 3: in the vicinity of 400 people that they have exonerated 83 00:05:52,520 --> 00:06:01,390 Speaker 3: by use of DNA, by use of of essentially debunking 84 00:06:01,589 --> 00:06:06,470 Speaker 3: all the junk science that crooked cops, corrupt prosecutors have 85 00:06:06,589 --> 00:06:13,530 Speaker 3: used in the past. Dental bite analysis, garbage. Really? Absolute garbage. 86 00:06:13,710 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 3: Junk science of a class with polygraphs, photo arrays, photo 87 00:06:22,260 --> 00:06:30,830 Speaker 3: array lineups in which cops constantly manipulate photographs to lead 88 00:06:31,810 --> 00:06:39,070 Speaker 3: supposed eyewitnesses to the one picture that they're trying to 89 00:06:39,130 --> 00:06:45,070 Speaker 3: build the narrative around, the guy that they're framing. So I, 90 00:06:45,680 --> 00:06:50,580 Speaker 3: over the years, have become good friends and confidants with 91 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 3: the the top of the ladder at Innocence Project. And 92 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,740 Speaker 3: I've been asking them for years, I really want to 93 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:04,740 Speaker 3: go investigate small town policing. Please tell me you've got 94 00:07:04,800 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 3: a case. And I'll go anywhere. I don't care. And 95 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,540 Speaker 3: I'll embed there. They said, Paul, you don't have to 96 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:16,340 Speaker 3: buy a plane ticket. Just drive 50 miles north of 97 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:21,160 Speaker 3: the Bronx to Putnam County, New York. A community of 98 00:07:22,820 --> 00:07:29,050 Speaker 3: white flight, blue collar families, formerly of the Bronx, of 99 00:07:29,130 --> 00:07:35,369 Speaker 3: the outer boroughs like Queens, who when urban renewal was 100 00:07:35,470 --> 00:07:39,730 Speaker 3: heavily funded by the federal government, suddenly all of these 101 00:07:39,830 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 3: towers went up in the Bronx, in Queens, in Brooklyn, 102 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:53,770 Speaker 3: all of those Italian, Irish, Polish, families, cops, firemen, con 103 00:07:53,850 --> 00:07:58,310 Speaker 3: ed workers, sanitation guys, they all got the hell out 104 00:07:58,330 --> 00:08:02,390 Speaker 3: of Dodge. Where'd they go? Some of them went to 105 00:08:02,650 --> 00:08:07,070 Speaker 3: less expensive communities in Westchester, but a bunch of them 106 00:08:07,150 --> 00:08:11,060 Speaker 3: went to Putnam County, which was barely populated. It was 107 00:08:11,300 --> 00:08:18,300 Speaker 3: essentially a seasonal county with some bungalows. on these man-made lakes. 108 00:08:18,580 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 3: So Putnam County, for those of you who don't live 109 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:28,250 Speaker 3: in the tri-state area, has been designated New York City's watershed. 110 00:08:28,260 --> 00:08:31,690 Speaker 3: And big chunks of the Hudson River have been diverted 111 00:08:31,710 --> 00:08:38,250 Speaker 3: to create reservoirs for New York City drinking and tap water. 112 00:08:39,630 --> 00:08:46,080 Speaker 3: Long story short, these communities that were only during the 113 00:08:46,179 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 3: summer in the 70s, 80s, and 90s suddenly grew from 114 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 3: a couple of thousand year-round residents to 35,000 like Carmel, 115 00:08:55,220 --> 00:09:02,839 Speaker 3: New York, the setting for the Devil's Quarry. So you've got, 116 00:09:04,620 --> 00:09:08,900 Speaker 3: in bright blue New York State, you've got this carve-out, 117 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:17,510 Speaker 3: this blood-red carve-out of New York City cops, sanitation, blah, blah, blah. Well, 118 00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:23,650 Speaker 3: in 1994, a beautiful young girl who is deeply unhappy 119 00:09:23,690 --> 00:09:30,000 Speaker 3: at home, who feels neglected, abused, et cetera, and who 120 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,900 Speaker 3: is taken to wandering the streets of this rural town, Carmel, 121 00:09:35,580 --> 00:09:39,300 Speaker 3: which barely has a downtown, at all hours of the 122 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 3: day or night, disappears on the afternoon of October 3rd, 1994. 123 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 3: It's never seen again in town limits. Cops, the crooked 124 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:58,230 Speaker 3: cops at the Putnam Sheriff's Office, and typically you don't 125 00:09:58,270 --> 00:10:01,870 Speaker 3: get guests on here, leading with crooked cops. 126 00:10:01,910 --> 00:10:02,610 Speaker 1: No, we don't. 127 00:10:02,650 --> 00:10:06,850 Speaker 2: But we definitely have had guests that were, that worked 128 00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:11,700 Speaker 2: with the Innocence Project and their, whose message has been 129 00:10:11,740 --> 00:10:17,910 Speaker 2: similar and wrongly convicted, uh, you know, prisoners, that has 130 00:10:17,970 --> 00:10:21,790 Speaker 2: been their passion. So it's some of my favorite because 131 00:10:21,860 --> 00:10:24,960 Speaker 2: the fact that you actually give a shit enough to 132 00:10:25,580 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 2: say to the Innocence Project, send me to a small town. 133 00:10:29,380 --> 00:10:29,860 Speaker 3: Exactly. 134 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:35,660 Speaker 2: Like Putnam, where clearly, clearly something happened here. And so 135 00:10:35,980 --> 00:10:36,500 Speaker 2: please go on. 136 00:10:36,820 --> 00:10:41,790 Speaker 3: So why do I use the word crooked? Because it's 137 00:10:41,850 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 3: been adjudicated. because we have all of this forensic evidence 138 00:10:47,080 --> 00:10:54,390 Speaker 3: that the two cops who framed two young boys, Anthony DePippo, 139 00:10:54,390 --> 00:10:59,709 Speaker 3: 18 when they arrested him, Andy Krivak, 17 when they 140 00:10:59,750 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 3: arrested him, both kids that I call sideways kids, kids 141 00:11:04,640 --> 00:11:13,130 Speaker 3: with ADHD, kids with low-level drug intakes, mostly weed, occasionally 142 00:11:13,250 --> 00:11:19,730 Speaker 3: ecstasy and pills. The cops, instead of investigating the disappearance 143 00:11:19,770 --> 00:11:24,700 Speaker 3: of Joseph Wright in October, November, et cetera, did absolutely 144 00:11:24,980 --> 00:11:26,380 Speaker 3: nothing on her case. 145 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: Just like with Robin Murphy. 146 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,420 Speaker 2: I mean, I couldn't get over when you described her 147 00:11:32,140 --> 00:11:37,270 Speaker 2: friend actually creating this search group As opposed to the 148 00:11:37,330 --> 00:11:40,630 Speaker 2: cops finding the real, finding for bad, the first real 149 00:11:40,670 --> 00:11:43,309 Speaker 2: piece of evidence because the cops weren't doing shit. 150 00:11:44,130 --> 00:11:45,770 Speaker 1: And I just couldn't get over it. 151 00:11:46,450 --> 00:11:50,980 Speaker 3: Well, wait till you hear season three. So we're now 152 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:53,960 Speaker 3: on season two. Season one, for those who are new 153 00:11:53,980 --> 00:11:59,459 Speaker 3: to the series, focused entirely on the wrongful convictions of 154 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:04,580 Speaker 3: Anthony DePippo and Andy Krivak for the murder of Josette Ray, 155 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:10,570 Speaker 3: 12-year-old girl. Not only did they not rape and murder Josette, 156 00:12:10,970 --> 00:12:15,689 Speaker 3: we know who did in any event. Anthony DePippo did 157 00:12:15,730 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 3: the most extraordinary thing I've ever encountered in 30 years. 158 00:12:20,780 --> 00:12:24,740 Speaker 3: So Anthony could barely read when he went to prison. Again, 159 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:30,430 Speaker 3: he had a significant learning disorder. He dropped out of 160 00:12:30,809 --> 00:12:35,349 Speaker 3: or failed the ninth grade three times. He gets convicted 161 00:12:35,850 --> 00:12:39,050 Speaker 3: of murdering a girl he met once to offer a 162 00:12:39,130 --> 00:12:43,630 Speaker 3: cigarette to on the street. He goes to the worst 163 00:12:43,690 --> 00:12:48,550 Speaker 3: place on earth, what we in New York refer to 164 00:12:48,830 --> 00:12:54,429 Speaker 3: as up top. When you've committed really heinous crimes, you 165 00:12:54,590 --> 00:12:57,090 Speaker 3: don't just go to prison. You go to the worst 166 00:12:57,150 --> 00:13:00,650 Speaker 3: prisons in all of the Northeast. You go to Attica. 167 00:13:01,090 --> 00:13:01,590 Speaker 3: You go to. 168 00:13:03,429 --> 00:13:08,520 Speaker 3: Dannemora, you go to Western, you go to Shawangunk. Anthony 169 00:13:08,540 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 3: was at all of those places. So first he taught 170 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,080 Speaker 3: himself to read in the law library by reading the 171 00:13:17,140 --> 00:13:21,370 Speaker 3: case law reporter, which is the standard text, which has 172 00:13:21,390 --> 00:13:29,120 Speaker 3: the summaries and in some cases transcripts. of these legal proceedings, 173 00:13:29,260 --> 00:13:34,090 Speaker 3: criminal proceedings, murders, serial rapes, et cetera, et cetera. And 174 00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:36,329 Speaker 3: so he taught himself first to read, then he taught 175 00:13:36,370 --> 00:13:39,470 Speaker 3: himself to write, and then he taught himself how to 176 00:13:39,570 --> 00:13:42,810 Speaker 3: investigate his own case. And we're gonna get to Robin 177 00:13:42,890 --> 00:13:46,810 Speaker 3: in just a second. So the thing about Anthony that's 178 00:13:46,830 --> 00:13:49,550 Speaker 3: a little different aside from the fact that he turns 179 00:13:49,710 --> 00:13:53,770 Speaker 3: out to be innately one of the most brilliant legal 180 00:13:53,830 --> 00:13:55,050 Speaker 3: minds in America. 181 00:13:55,650 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: And that's not. 182 00:13:56,620 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 3: Me saying it. So America has one lawyer at the very, 183 00:14:03,059 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 3: very top of criminal law. And anyone who's seen the P. 184 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:12,470 Speaker 3: Diddy documentary has met Mark Agniflo. Anybody who has watched 185 00:14:12,590 --> 00:14:17,650 Speaker 3: The Vow about Keith Raniere and that crazy sex cult, 186 00:14:18,270 --> 00:14:22,550 Speaker 3: Mark represented Diddy, got him off of 36 of 40 187 00:14:22,550 --> 00:14:31,950 Speaker 3: counts for interstate racketeering, sex trafficking. You got Harvey Weinstein off. 188 00:14:32,110 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 3: I mean, this is a guy who markets himself to 189 00:14:37,130 --> 00:14:41,340 Speaker 3: those people he says are truly fucked. He got a 190 00:14:41,380 --> 00:14:46,340 Speaker 3: hold of Anthony's case in 2016, drove up to Putnam 191 00:14:46,380 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 3: County to meet with his client at Putnam County Jailhouse 192 00:14:51,100 --> 00:14:54,830 Speaker 3: and realized within five minutes that he was sitting there 193 00:14:55,190 --> 00:14:58,450 Speaker 3: with the second best lawyer in America, even though Anthony, 194 00:14:58,470 --> 00:15:03,370 Speaker 3: of course, had no memory. And so to get through 195 00:15:04,110 --> 00:15:08,930 Speaker 3: the post-conviction relief process and get a judge to read 196 00:15:09,150 --> 00:15:13,250 Speaker 3: your brief that you yourself as a convict have written, 197 00:15:13,630 --> 00:15:18,060 Speaker 3: the odds are, let's call it one in 100,000, for 198 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 3: a judge to then refer your brief to the Court 199 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 3: of Appeals where a seven panel, seven justice panel that 200 00:15:29,600 --> 00:15:35,230 Speaker 3: oversees all convictions in the state of New York agrees 201 00:15:35,620 --> 00:15:40,810 Speaker 3: not only wrongly convicted, but your lawyer should be disbarred. 202 00:15:41,270 --> 00:15:43,650 Speaker 1: And I cannot believe has not been. 203 00:15:44,250 --> 00:15:48,210 Speaker 3: Has not been disbarred. In fact, Anthony's criminal lawyer, who 204 00:15:48,270 --> 00:15:52,950 Speaker 3: is himself a criminal, is now a judge in Putnam County. 205 00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:59,080 Speaker 3: A man who committed the most horrific ethical offense I've 206 00:15:59,260 --> 00:16:05,980 Speaker 3: ever heard of. He was Anthony DePippo's capital murder lawyer, 207 00:16:06,350 --> 00:16:10,390 Speaker 3: while he also represented the guy who should have been 208 00:16:10,670 --> 00:16:14,030 Speaker 3: the prime suspect, the man you've been talking about, Howard 209 00:16:14,210 --> 00:16:15,650 Speaker 3: John Gover. Right. 210 00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:16,750 Speaker 2: Unreal. 211 00:16:16,830 --> 00:16:20,030 Speaker 3: Hit that from Anthony, hit it from the judge. It 212 00:16:20,050 --> 00:16:22,340 Speaker 3: was only when Anthony got a hold of his case 213 00:16:22,390 --> 00:16:24,340 Speaker 3: file and saw. 214 00:16:23,980 --> 00:16:26,170 Speaker 1: That It was the same lawyer. 215 00:16:26,410 --> 00:16:35,610 Speaker 3: Leader had represented Gombert in two different rape cases. So 216 00:16:35,930 --> 00:16:41,430 Speaker 3: in the course of investigating his own conviction, Anthony stumbles 217 00:16:41,510 --> 00:16:45,489 Speaker 3: across this name in witness statements that had never been 218 00:16:45,570 --> 00:16:50,010 Speaker 3: raised at his trial by his own shitty lawyer, Robert Leader, 219 00:16:50,730 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 3: the name of Howard Gombert. And Anthony had heard the 220 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:58,960 Speaker 3: name before, but he couldn't remember in what connection. And 221 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,260 Speaker 3: so he hired a private detective to start digging into 222 00:17:03,330 --> 00:17:07,690 Speaker 3: this man, Howard Gomber. And lo and behold, Gomber turns 223 00:17:07,810 --> 00:17:14,430 Speaker 3: out to be a one-man sex crime wave in Putnam County. 224 00:17:14,790 --> 00:17:21,050 Speaker 3: And before Putnam County, New York, 12 miles east in Litchfield, Connecticut, 225 00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:26,730 Speaker 3: he had raped the when she was 11, 12, 13, 226 00:17:26,730 --> 00:17:31,990 Speaker 3: another girl. He was convicted in Connecticut of raping a 227 00:17:32,340 --> 00:17:36,460 Speaker 3: seven-year-old girl. He's now in prison. He's been in prison 228 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:41,640 Speaker 3: since 2000, but, and he was sentenced to 30 years, 229 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:47,070 Speaker 3: but in Connecticut, 30 years turns out to be more 230 00:17:47,109 --> 00:17:49,430 Speaker 3: like 24, 25. So he's getting out soon? 231 00:17:49,470 --> 00:17:50,710 Speaker 1: Is that what you're saying? 232 00:17:50,750 --> 00:17:55,790 Speaker 3: He's getting out in less than three months. This monster. 233 00:17:56,590 --> 00:18:00,690 Speaker 3: This is why I came back to do the pod series. So, 234 00:18:00,910 --> 00:18:08,180 Speaker 3: Robin Murphy. Robin Murphy disappears exactly six months after Joseph 235 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 3: Wright does. Again, a small, white-only town where there is 236 00:18:14,020 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 3: no violent crime. Part of the problem, Jennifer, is that 237 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:23,270 Speaker 3: these mall cops, these rented cops, who were never trained 238 00:18:23,310 --> 00:18:28,709 Speaker 3: to be cops... were suddenly tasked with solving not one, 239 00:18:29,070 --> 00:18:36,189 Speaker 3: but two murders of girls in their town. And because 240 00:18:36,230 --> 00:18:40,850 Speaker 3: they've never done anything like this, the sheriff's department says, well, 241 00:18:40,930 --> 00:18:44,659 Speaker 3: fuck it. Let's just hang the murder on two of 242 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:49,399 Speaker 3: the kids we hate. And what's the difference? Well, the 243 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:55,740 Speaker 3: difference is, had you investigated and caught The actual perp, 244 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 3: when Joe's head disappeared, Robin Murphy would be alive. Well, 245 00:19:01,320 --> 00:19:05,510 Speaker 3: we'd know where she is. Yeah. Robin worked with Gombert's 246 00:19:05,710 --> 00:19:10,690 Speaker 3: long-suffering baby mama, who we called Anne Marie. 247 00:19:10,810 --> 00:19:12,350 Speaker 2: Okay, so let me just stop you because he was 248 00:19:12,350 --> 00:19:13,689 Speaker 2: 30 and she was 16. 249 00:19:13,690 --> 00:19:14,550 Speaker 1: Is that what I'm remembering? 250 00:19:14,930 --> 00:19:15,190 Speaker 3: Yes. 251 00:19:15,270 --> 00:19:15,790 Speaker 1: Approximately? 252 00:19:16,250 --> 00:19:16,770 Speaker 3: Yes. 253 00:19:16,830 --> 00:19:20,369 Speaker 2: That's what I'm not understanding. In these towns, 30-year-old man 254 00:19:20,510 --> 00:19:24,290 Speaker 2: is getting with a 16-year-old girl. He gets pregnant. That's 255 00:19:24,330 --> 00:19:26,859 Speaker 2: the part I haven't understood. Where were the parents? Where 256 00:19:26,900 --> 00:19:29,060 Speaker 2: were the cops when that was happening? 257 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 3: There is a culture in Putnam County, and I don't 258 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,620 Speaker 3: want to globalize it. I don't want to say that 259 00:19:37,740 --> 00:19:43,790 Speaker 3: this is what small-town white America looks like because you 260 00:19:43,850 --> 00:19:48,030 Speaker 3: can't extrapolate from one example. But what I have seen 261 00:19:48,130 --> 00:19:53,170 Speaker 3: over and over and been told over and over by 262 00:19:53,330 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 3: Robin's girlfriends, by Josette's classmates, is if you were a 263 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:02,100 Speaker 3: girl growing up in Putnam County, in the town of Carmel, 264 00:20:02,420 --> 00:20:05,380 Speaker 3: in the town of Brewster, in the town of Patterson, 265 00:20:06,780 --> 00:20:11,650 Speaker 3: the cops would fuck with you relentlessly. If you were 266 00:20:11,710 --> 00:20:14,740 Speaker 3: one of those kids who smoked a joint and ditched class, 267 00:20:14,980 --> 00:20:19,260 Speaker 3: they always found you. If they found you with a joint, 268 00:20:19,500 --> 00:20:22,300 Speaker 3: if they found you ditching school, if they found you 269 00:20:22,320 --> 00:20:25,310 Speaker 3: in the woods drinking a 40 at 2 o'clock in 270 00:20:25,330 --> 00:20:28,770 Speaker 3: the afternoon, this is what I've been told again and 271 00:20:28,830 --> 00:20:32,110 Speaker 3: again and again. This is what season three is going 272 00:20:32,130 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 3: to be about. The boys would get arrested and forced 273 00:20:37,450 --> 00:20:41,070 Speaker 3: to snitch and set up their friends for a drug 274 00:20:41,109 --> 00:20:44,490 Speaker 3: deal so the cops could bust them too. And the 275 00:20:44,530 --> 00:20:47,629 Speaker 3: girls had to blow the cop at the wheel to 276 00:20:47,730 --> 00:20:52,100 Speaker 3: get out of the back of that street. So this 277 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:58,060 Speaker 3: is the culture of this godforsaken county, Putnam County. 278 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:01,140 Speaker 1: And now I'm picturing Robin being kind of this goth girl. 279 00:21:01,550 --> 00:21:05,970 Speaker 3: That's right. She already stood out as a kind of 280 00:21:06,150 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 3: ringer in this scruffy working class town. Right. 281 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:11,619 Speaker 1: Easy target. 282 00:21:11,940 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 3: An easy target, but also this monster had a nose. 283 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:21,210 Speaker 3: He had a sixth sense for vulnerable girls and lonely 284 00:21:21,630 --> 00:21:27,850 Speaker 3: single mothers. And lonely single mothers were Howard Gombert's delivery 285 00:21:27,890 --> 00:21:33,570 Speaker 3: device for their daughters. So, He did this with the 286 00:21:33,609 --> 00:21:37,490 Speaker 3: girl we call Rachel R. He did this with Sarah Lindley, 287 00:21:37,550 --> 00:21:43,260 Speaker 3: her real name. We know that Gombert was a machine. 288 00:21:43,990 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 3: We also know that Gombert had been working up to 289 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 3: these horrific sexual assaults from an early age. He was 290 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:00,180 Speaker 3: what the FBI wanted. calls a sexual burglar. Have you 291 00:22:00,220 --> 00:22:01,220 Speaker 3: heard this term before? 292 00:22:01,260 --> 00:22:03,180 Speaker 1: No, I haven't. Please, tell us. 293 00:22:03,220 --> 00:22:07,930 Speaker 3: Then you break into someone's home to steal watches, cameras, 294 00:22:08,230 --> 00:22:12,750 Speaker 3: cash if there's cash on hand, small appliances you can resell. 295 00:22:13,070 --> 00:22:14,909 Speaker 3: The first and last thing you want to do is 296 00:22:14,970 --> 00:22:17,340 Speaker 3: get the hell out of there as quickly as possible 297 00:22:17,380 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 3: because you're not just risking your liberty as a burglar, 298 00:22:20,460 --> 00:22:23,720 Speaker 3: you're risking your life. If by any chance someone's home 299 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 3: and you think the house is empty, A sexual burglar 300 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:30,530 Speaker 3: is someone who goes in to rob the place but 301 00:22:30,619 --> 00:22:36,629 Speaker 3: sticks around to rummage through the lingerie drawers of his victims. 302 00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:42,150 Speaker 3: And Gombert didn't just steal panties and bras. He had 303 00:22:42,430 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 3: duffel bags full of them when they finally searched his 304 00:22:46,670 --> 00:22:54,360 Speaker 3: dwellings in the late 90s, early 2000s. He literally... They 305 00:22:54,440 --> 00:23:01,270 Speaker 3: found so many stolen bracelets, watches, cameras, purses, handbags, but 306 00:23:01,290 --> 00:23:07,570 Speaker 3: what they found were girls' and women's intimates amassed over 307 00:23:07,609 --> 00:23:13,939 Speaker 3: we don't know how long. Long story short, Robin worked 308 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,719 Speaker 3: as a cashier at the Shopperay in Carmel. At the 309 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:23,880 Speaker 3: next register was Anne Marie, Gombert's former 16-year-old baby mama, 310 00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:28,220 Speaker 3: now 19, and she had just filed rape and sodomy 311 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 3: charges against this monster. I won't go into why those 312 00:23:31,940 --> 00:23:32,740 Speaker 3: were dismissed. 313 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,619 Speaker 2: Why, by the way, because you say that also on 314 00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,210 Speaker 2: the pod, that you don't want to go into it. 315 00:23:37,330 --> 00:23:39,510 Speaker 2: Is that just because it's not the timing? You don't 316 00:23:39,609 --> 00:23:40,950 Speaker 2: screw anything up for the future? 317 00:23:41,230 --> 00:23:46,450 Speaker 3: Gombert was a compulsive archivist of his sex crimes. He 318 00:23:46,710 --> 00:23:50,830 Speaker 3: always took Polaroids of his victims. He had boxes and 319 00:23:51,010 --> 00:23:56,850 Speaker 3: boxes of Polaroids of underage girls, naked or scantily dressed. 320 00:23:57,490 --> 00:24:03,290 Speaker 3: He had compiled a photo album of pictures of Anne 321 00:24:03,350 --> 00:24:08,929 Speaker 3: Marie bound, gagged, with foreign objects wedged inside her. And 322 00:24:08,990 --> 00:24:14,050 Speaker 3: he showed, his lawyer showed that collection of photos to 323 00:24:14,130 --> 00:24:19,750 Speaker 3: the ADA in Anne Marie's rape and sodomy case. And 324 00:24:19,850 --> 00:24:28,010 Speaker 3: convinced that ADA that this was evidence that the Gumbert's 325 00:24:28,130 --> 00:24:32,630 Speaker 3: rapes and sodomies were consensual. 326 00:24:32,869 --> 00:24:35,460 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe when you said it. I was in shock. 327 00:24:35,660 --> 00:24:42,820 Speaker 3: Only in Putnam County would someone's lawyer provide evidence of 328 00:24:42,900 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 3: the crimes that their client is charged with. And the 329 00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:50,969 Speaker 3: ADA going, yeah, you know what? You're right. I'm wrong. 330 00:24:51,450 --> 00:24:55,910 Speaker 3: She obviously is a hoe and consented to all of this. 331 00:24:56,570 --> 00:25:01,230 Speaker 3: And that's what happened with Anne Marie's case. So Anne 332 00:25:01,270 --> 00:25:03,130 Speaker 3: Marie fled to a shelter. 333 00:25:03,150 --> 00:25:05,939 Speaker 1: And he followed her, right? He's a smart motherfucker. 334 00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,220 Speaker 3: He's a smart motherfucker, but he is so obsessive. Once 335 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,760 Speaker 3: he has his thumb on a girl, he never lets 336 00:25:14,820 --> 00:25:18,859 Speaker 3: her go. whether he's with someone else, whether he's three 337 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:24,640 Speaker 3: times removed from that assaultive relationship, he stalks, surveils all 338 00:25:24,660 --> 00:25:28,790 Speaker 3: of his victims. Long story short, she had fled to 339 00:25:28,830 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 3: a shelter. He tracked her to that shelter. She ran 340 00:25:31,980 --> 00:25:35,490 Speaker 3: to another shelter. He tracked her to that one. She 341 00:25:35,550 --> 00:25:40,350 Speaker 3: was driving home one day in Danbury, Connecticut, when suddenly 342 00:25:40,369 --> 00:25:48,070 Speaker 3: he puts his fist against her windshield. For some reason, 343 00:25:48,109 --> 00:25:50,580 Speaker 3: she rolls down her driver's side window. He sticks a 344 00:25:50,619 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 3: knife to her throat and says, shove over. She screams, 345 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,619 Speaker 3: starts blowing the horn. The motorists behind her start blowing 346 00:25:58,660 --> 00:26:03,180 Speaker 3: their horns. He runs away. Within a month of that happening, 347 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:09,830 Speaker 3: Robin Murphy disappears. And nobody except her friends and her 348 00:26:09,890 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 3: family give a shit. Mind you, There's a dead girl 349 00:26:14,500 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 3: in the woods who has just disappeared six months earlier. 350 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: Paul, where were that? 351 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,940 Speaker 2: Where were, because you don't talk about them a lot 352 00:26:34,980 --> 00:26:36,900 Speaker 2: on the pod. I'm sure there's a reason for that. 353 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:38,020 Speaker 2: But where were the parents in this? 354 00:26:38,460 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 3: They were fighting tooth and nail to get the cops 355 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:45,760 Speaker 3: to do their job. They never hauled Gombert in for 356 00:26:45,780 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 3: a grilling in the interrogation box. They did it with 357 00:26:52,260 --> 00:26:59,629 Speaker 3: Robin's stoner friends. They did it or kept trying to 358 00:27:00,290 --> 00:27:08,210 Speaker 3: haul in her father and her older brother for hostile questioning. 359 00:27:08,730 --> 00:27:15,220 Speaker 3: The one person they didn't interrogate was Howard Gomber. Now, 360 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,859 Speaker 3: the question you're going to ask me is, how on 361 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 3: earth does a man who has been charged with rape 362 00:27:22,850 --> 00:27:29,889 Speaker 3: five times in police filings, many more that we know of, 363 00:27:30,490 --> 00:27:34,869 Speaker 3: how is it that every cop in Putnam County knew 364 00:27:34,970 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 3: who he was, knew what he did, and allowed him 365 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 3: to go on hunting? 366 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:41,260 Speaker 1: That certainly is my question. 367 00:27:42,100 --> 00:27:44,660 Speaker 3: I have an answer. I can't say it on the air. 368 00:27:44,859 --> 00:27:46,100 Speaker 1: Oh, come on. 369 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:47,619 Speaker 3: Why? 370 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:49,300 Speaker 1: Can you say why you can't say it? Are there 371 00:27:49,340 --> 00:27:50,100 Speaker 1: legal reasons? 372 00:27:50,859 --> 00:27:53,220 Speaker 3: Well, it's something I can't yet prove. 373 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: I'm saying, okay, fair enough. 374 00:27:56,119 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 3: I ask cop after cop, what was your training? If 375 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,570 Speaker 3: you're a New York City cop, if you're a Philadelphia cop, 376 00:28:03,609 --> 00:28:07,450 Speaker 3: if you're an LA cop, six months of academy. Plus, 377 00:28:07,810 --> 00:28:10,770 Speaker 3: if you want to do any specialized work, if you 378 00:28:10,810 --> 00:28:14,050 Speaker 3: want to be a narc, If you want to work homicide, 379 00:28:14,450 --> 00:28:17,729 Speaker 3: if you want to work major robberies, you have to 380 00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:20,379 Speaker 3: go for, first of all, you have to pass a 381 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:24,320 Speaker 3: sergeant's exam. Second of all, you have to sit for 382 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:33,719 Speaker 3: intensive detection coursework. There is this constant learning, this constant 383 00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:37,220 Speaker 3: skill sharpening, at least for cops who actually solve crimes. 384 00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,820 Speaker 3: The vast majority of cops on any city force do 385 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:46,100 Speaker 3: absolutely nothing except stand there and look scary. But the 386 00:28:46,220 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 3: folks who actually solve the crimes in every city are 387 00:28:49,860 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 3: the top 20% of the cops. And by the way, 388 00:28:53,060 --> 00:28:56,900 Speaker 3: the folks who commit all the wrongful shootings, the wrongful arrests, 389 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,380 Speaker 3: the racial incidents, they're the bottom 20%. You've got the 60% 390 00:29:01,380 --> 00:29:06,350 Speaker 3: in the middle. In Carmel, nobody got trained to be 391 00:29:06,390 --> 00:29:12,380 Speaker 3: a cop. Not sheriff's deputies, not, and so, No one 392 00:29:12,500 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 3: ever told them that they could be anything more than 393 00:29:15,300 --> 00:29:19,380 Speaker 3: bullies with a badge and a gun. And as we 394 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:24,070 Speaker 3: say in season one, Putnam County is a place where 395 00:29:24,270 --> 00:29:26,710 Speaker 3: no bad deed goes punished. 396 00:29:26,910 --> 00:29:29,270 Speaker 2: Just in terms of Robin, right, for a moment, because 397 00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:33,390 Speaker 2: that case is still not solved. This girl died, was 398 00:29:33,490 --> 00:29:38,170 Speaker 2: murdered 30 some odd years ago, right? And here, I 399 00:29:38,190 --> 00:29:41,100 Speaker 2: don't know how Robin's character are dealing with this because 400 00:29:41,140 --> 00:29:42,860 Speaker 2: I'm sure that they now believe that Gambart is the 401 00:29:42,900 --> 00:29:43,450 Speaker 2: one that did it. 402 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:47,420 Speaker 3: Well, I can give you an update there. So Robin's 403 00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 3: poor parents were so tortured by the disappearance of the 404 00:29:52,780 --> 00:29:56,479 Speaker 3: family star. I mean, this girl was so bright. She 405 00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 3: was beautiful. And she just had... that it. 406 00:30:02,140 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: Did she? 407 00:30:02,820 --> 00:30:05,420 Speaker 2: I'm glad you're telling us because I just, I know 408 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,190 Speaker 2: she was, it sounds like she was smart. Even the 409 00:30:08,570 --> 00:30:11,209 Speaker 2: manager at ShopRite or whatever it was, talked about how 410 00:30:11,230 --> 00:30:13,709 Speaker 2: she was never late and she was so studious and 411 00:30:14,170 --> 00:30:16,510 Speaker 2: there was something, she seemed like an introvert, but really 412 00:30:16,590 --> 00:30:19,930 Speaker 2: she was, you know, she was commanding the room, right? 413 00:30:20,150 --> 00:30:21,870 Speaker 1: But she was very goth. I wonder if that was 414 00:30:21,930 --> 00:30:23,990 Speaker 1: part of this in terms of the cops. 415 00:30:24,260 --> 00:30:26,780 Speaker 3: We were not supposed to have the case file. We 416 00:30:26,820 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 3: have the thousand page case file. I don't want to 417 00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:30,440 Speaker 3: say how we got it. 418 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,700 Speaker 1: I don't want to know how you got it. Right. Okay. 419 00:30:34,220 --> 00:30:40,030 Speaker 3: You cannot believe what you as a lay person are 420 00:30:40,190 --> 00:30:44,430 Speaker 3: reading page after page after page, thinking to yourself, all right, 421 00:30:44,650 --> 00:30:49,530 Speaker 3: I've seen law and order. I've seen homicide life on 422 00:30:49,550 --> 00:30:53,930 Speaker 3: the streets. I've seen, you know, NYPD blue. I know 423 00:30:54,020 --> 00:30:58,680 Speaker 3: exactly what they should have done next. And every single 424 00:30:58,740 --> 00:31:01,900 Speaker 3: time they did something else. Every time they should have 425 00:31:01,940 --> 00:31:03,270 Speaker 3: gone right, they went left. 426 00:31:04,110 --> 00:31:08,630 Speaker 1: And Robin's poor parents are, what happens now? 427 00:31:09,630 --> 00:31:17,090 Speaker 3: So Robin's father, who was an elevator repairman in New 428 00:31:17,110 --> 00:31:23,190 Speaker 3: York City, commuting back and forth, wound up essentially drinking 429 00:31:23,230 --> 00:31:25,810 Speaker 3: himself into the grave. 430 00:31:26,530 --> 00:31:26,610 Speaker 2: Oh. 431 00:31:27,390 --> 00:31:35,030 Speaker 3: At a very precocious age. He died of cirrhosis, I 432 00:31:35,050 --> 00:31:39,470 Speaker 3: assume cirrhosis could have been liver cancer, exactly 13 years 433 00:31:39,530 --> 00:31:44,710 Speaker 3: to the day after his baby disappeared. His mother now, 434 00:31:44,990 --> 00:31:49,820 Speaker 3: her mother now lives upstate. The entire family is so haunted. 435 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:57,570 Speaker 3: So mom, Judy, in her and her frustration and her 436 00:31:57,650 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 3: grief began writing to psychics. She saw on the Sally 437 00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:07,020 Speaker 3: Jesse Raphael show. She saw on Dr. Phil. And she 438 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:10,719 Speaker 3: got them to come to Carmel and lead the cops 439 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,550 Speaker 3: around by their noses. And the cops, who wouldn't actually 440 00:32:14,590 --> 00:32:21,010 Speaker 3: interview witnesses, but did anything and everything that these crackpots 441 00:32:21,210 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 3: on Sally Jesse Raphael suggested they do, spent three years 442 00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:31,120 Speaker 3: chasing their own tails to go investigate this body of 443 00:32:31,260 --> 00:32:37,780 Speaker 3: water or that barren patch of woods or when all 444 00:32:37,980 --> 00:32:43,240 Speaker 3: along the killer was sitting in front of them. But 445 00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:48,190 Speaker 3: he had lawyered up. He had lawyered up. And in Carmel, 446 00:32:48,590 --> 00:32:53,420 Speaker 3: if you have a lawyer, we can't touch you. When 447 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:55,920 Speaker 3: the cops went to talk to Howard Gombrich, he had 448 00:32:55,980 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 3: just tried to kill himself on the lawn of his 449 00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,650 Speaker 3: father's house five days after Robin disappeared. You can't have 450 00:33:02,730 --> 00:33:10,210 Speaker 3: a more blatant act of what lawyers call consciousness of guilt. 451 00:33:11,070 --> 00:33:14,490 Speaker 3: It is like a deathbed confession, right? Swallowed a bunch 452 00:33:14,530 --> 00:33:17,870 Speaker 3: of sleeping pills, washed it down with vodka, wound up 453 00:33:18,390 --> 00:33:22,590 Speaker 3: in a semi-coma on his father's lawn. Almost confessed twice. 454 00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,540 Speaker 3: while he came back to his senses. So when they 455 00:33:26,580 --> 00:33:30,290 Speaker 3: go interview him at the hospital, they ask him, you know, 456 00:33:30,350 --> 00:33:34,730 Speaker 3: can you reconstruct your movements that night? Can you? No, 457 00:33:35,170 --> 00:33:39,270 Speaker 3: you know, this guy is the prime suspect. You grab him, 458 00:33:40,130 --> 00:33:45,170 Speaker 3: you cuff him, you take him to your precinct and 459 00:33:45,210 --> 00:33:48,330 Speaker 3: you sweat him until he breaks. That's what you've done 460 00:33:48,450 --> 00:33:53,370 Speaker 3: with every child you framed or you know, sent to 461 00:33:53,390 --> 00:33:57,300 Speaker 3: rehab or to juvie, but you can't do it with 462 00:33:57,390 --> 00:34:01,140 Speaker 3: this guy? Well, the day after they completely blew their 463 00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 3: shot at him, he called his lawyer, Bob Leder, who 464 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 3: was a public defender, and said, well, well, well, the 465 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,299 Speaker 3: cops are after me. He sent them a cease and 466 00:34:12,340 --> 00:34:15,500 Speaker 3: desist letter saying, do not speak to my client unless 467 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,460 Speaker 3: I'm there. Had he sent that letter to a New 468 00:34:18,500 --> 00:34:21,860 Speaker 3: York City detective, he would have said, Here's the address 469 00:34:22,180 --> 00:34:25,400 Speaker 3: where you can see your client. It's called the Tombs. 470 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:30,879 Speaker 3: We're arresting him and we are interviewing him at 9A. 471 00:34:31,580 --> 00:34:35,150 Speaker 3: By all means, attend. But we're getting that piece of 472 00:34:35,250 --> 00:34:39,710 Speaker 3: shit on the record about what he knew, where he was, 473 00:34:40,390 --> 00:34:44,069 Speaker 3: and who or who cannot provide him an alibi. The 474 00:34:44,090 --> 00:34:45,330 Speaker 3: cops never did that. 475 00:34:45,690 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: They were just so intimidated that he had this lawyer. 476 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,400 Speaker 2: That was, I mean, I think it sounds, It's not 477 00:34:50,460 --> 00:34:54,740 Speaker 2: just that. Clearly, they had dealings with him that started way. 478 00:34:54,580 --> 00:34:57,180 Speaker 1: Before his disappearances. 479 00:34:57,700 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 2: But then that was just their MO that if you 480 00:35:00,100 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 2: have a lawyer, you're untouchable. I mean, I know it's 481 00:35:02,900 --> 00:35:06,020 Speaker 2: a small town. I get that there wasn't a lot 482 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 2: of money around, but that is crazy. 483 00:35:10,140 --> 00:35:14,020 Speaker 3: But this is what bad policing looks like. There are 484 00:35:14,739 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 3: police departments, and I've written about great cops. I believe 485 00:35:18,739 --> 00:35:24,489 Speaker 3: great cops... are artists. I have written about five or 486 00:35:24,590 --> 00:35:29,760 Speaker 3: six extraordinary cops in my career, and I've basically erected 487 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:32,860 Speaker 3: statues to these guys. They tend to be federal cops, 488 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 3: but great homicide cops, great armed robbery cops, they are 489 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 3: artists at criminal detection. Bad cops are the most dangerous 490 00:35:47,020 --> 00:35:51,509 Speaker 3: people in any community. Because there are the crimes that 491 00:35:51,550 --> 00:35:56,320 Speaker 3: they themselves commit. I'm about to report a season about 492 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 3: one crooked police department in Putnam County. What these cops 493 00:36:01,020 --> 00:36:03,580 Speaker 3: did to one woman. It's coming. 494 00:36:04,380 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: And then there's Robin. 495 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,080 Speaker 3: And then there's Robin and Josette. 496 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:09,020 Speaker 1: And Josette. 497 00:36:09,260 --> 00:36:12,569 Speaker 3: I'll remind you. So I haven't told you about my 498 00:36:12,650 --> 00:36:16,350 Speaker 3: conversation with DA Robert Tendi when I spoke to him 499 00:36:16,410 --> 00:36:19,830 Speaker 3: two weeks ago. I asked him to confirm what his 500 00:36:19,890 --> 00:36:23,649 Speaker 3: task force had told me, that they are actively investigating 501 00:36:23,730 --> 00:36:28,370 Speaker 3: both cold cases. He said, no, we're not reinvestigating the 502 00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:31,790 Speaker 3: murder of Choset, right? We got the guys. I said, 503 00:36:31,810 --> 00:36:33,670 Speaker 3: what do you mean you got the guys? Have you 504 00:36:33,710 --> 00:36:37,430 Speaker 3: released the identities of these perps to the public? He said, 505 00:36:37,469 --> 00:36:41,379 Speaker 3: we tried them. They were acquitted, but we got the killers. 506 00:36:42,580 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 3: I said, do you mean the young men you paid 507 00:36:44,780 --> 00:36:49,410 Speaker 3: upwards of $ 40 million to? Are those the killers you're 508 00:36:49,450 --> 00:36:53,410 Speaker 3: referring to? The two young men who were not just 509 00:36:53,530 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 3: exonerated by the jury, by Pottham County juries, they wanted 510 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,160 Speaker 3: to indict you. They wanted to indict your star witness, 511 00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,419 Speaker 3: Denise Rose. So what do you mean you've got the killer? 512 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:08,680 Speaker 1: What does that mean? 513 00:37:09,340 --> 00:37:17,290 Speaker 3: It means he is pathologically unable to admit that he's wrong. 514 00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:22,140 Speaker 3: that he fucked up. And it's not me saying he 515 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,020 Speaker 3: fucked up. It's two separate juries who said, are you 516 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:27,569 Speaker 3: out of your mind you convicted these guys? 517 00:37:28,950 --> 00:37:47,029 Speaker 1: These poor guys. These poor kids. They were kids. Okay, 518 00:37:47,090 --> 00:37:49,710 Speaker 1: so It ain't over. And I don't just mean... No, 519 00:37:50,210 --> 00:37:50,569 Speaker 1: it's not. 520 00:37:51,330 --> 00:37:51,810 Speaker 3: It ain't over. 521 00:37:51,890 --> 00:37:55,670 Speaker 2: I want to know what happens now. So these two 522 00:37:55,790 --> 00:37:58,430 Speaker 2: cold cases and these parents, and I haven't even... We're 523 00:37:58,450 --> 00:38:00,790 Speaker 2: supposed to be talking about Robin. I want to talk 524 00:38:00,810 --> 00:38:03,870 Speaker 2: about Josette also, of course. But do they have an 525 00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:05,190 Speaker 2: idea about what's coming? 526 00:38:05,370 --> 00:38:05,610 Speaker 1: Is it. 527 00:38:05,989 --> 00:38:09,690 Speaker 2: I know that this pod, because I've seen the effect of... 528 00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,219 Speaker 2: documentaries and pods like this and what they can do. 529 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,219 Speaker 2: So I know that this is going to take off. 530 00:38:15,380 --> 00:38:17,819 Speaker 3: Oh, it's taken off already. We've been top 20 ever 531 00:38:17,860 --> 00:38:19,339 Speaker 3: since we dropped season one. 532 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,779 Speaker 2: So wait, so we are waiting for season three to 533 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:24,090 Speaker 2: come out for the shit to hit the fan? 534 00:38:24,090 --> 00:38:28,850 Speaker 3: No, we haven't started. No, in fact, we're still near 535 00:38:28,910 --> 00:38:33,450 Speaker 3: the end of the production of season two. We have 536 00:38:34,610 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 3: dropped the first three episodes. The Fourth will be out 537 00:38:41,340 --> 00:38:47,730 Speaker 3: next Tuesday. The eighth and final episode will not be 538 00:38:48,090 --> 00:38:52,969 Speaker 3: released until we know what's happening with that monster and 539 00:38:53,070 --> 00:38:56,770 Speaker 3: his pending release from Cheshire Correctional Facility. 540 00:38:57,230 --> 00:39:00,910 Speaker 1: Well, what could be happening? What's on the table? 541 00:39:01,410 --> 00:39:04,270 Speaker 3: He thinks he's getting out, signing a piece of paper 542 00:39:04,350 --> 00:39:05,370 Speaker 3: that says, yes. 543 00:39:05,610 --> 00:39:07,450 Speaker 1: Forget about what he thinks. What do you think? 544 00:39:07,890 --> 00:39:11,480 Speaker 3: There's what I know. And can't say because. 545 00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:12,819 Speaker 1: You don't want to get in the way of it. 546 00:39:13,260 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 3: No, I have been sworn to secrecy by the folks 547 00:39:19,260 --> 00:39:21,120 Speaker 3: working this case. 548 00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:23,030 Speaker 1: So it's not just you, right? 549 00:39:23,110 --> 00:39:23,870 Speaker 3: No, no, no, no. 550 00:39:23,930 --> 00:39:26,330 Speaker 1: There are folks working this case now. 551 00:39:26,930 --> 00:39:32,340 Speaker 3: Not just this case, but Colt. of his in other states. 552 00:39:33,260 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 3: As I say, this man was a one-man crime wave. 553 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:37,940 Speaker 3: He got caught in Connecticut. 554 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:39,460 Speaker 2: Are the other cases murder cases? 555 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:41,820 Speaker 3: They are rape in the first cases. 556 00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:42,620 Speaker 1: Okay. 557 00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:43,720 Speaker 3: Children. 558 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,569 Speaker 2: He's only been convicted on one case. There's only one 559 00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:50,590 Speaker 2: girl that he did time for. 560 00:39:51,890 --> 00:39:57,950 Speaker 3: He's still doing that time. For some reason, they convicted 561 00:39:57,989 --> 00:40:02,330 Speaker 3: him of attempted rape in the first of a seven-year-old girl. 562 00:40:02,790 --> 00:40:06,700 Speaker 3: Why they didn't convict him, why they didn't charge him 563 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:10,140 Speaker 3: with rape in the first, which is life without parole. 564 00:40:10,739 --> 00:40:12,760 Speaker 1: What about statutory rape with Anne-Marie? 565 00:40:13,260 --> 00:40:21,120 Speaker 3: So statutory rape is that has... an expiration limit. What 566 00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,620 Speaker 3: does not have an expiration limit is rape in the first. 567 00:40:25,140 --> 00:40:29,590 Speaker 3: So what is rape in the first? In Gombert's case, 568 00:40:30,150 --> 00:40:33,390 Speaker 3: where the victim is under 13 and there is at 569 00:40:33,690 --> 00:40:37,370 Speaker 3: least a two-year age gap, meaning he's at least two 570 00:40:37,410 --> 00:40:45,339 Speaker 3: years older, he is permanently at risk of arrest, trial, 571 00:40:45,430 --> 00:40:49,590 Speaker 3: conviction for rape in the first. which is a minimum, 572 00:40:49,650 --> 00:40:54,670 Speaker 3: mandatory minimum of 30 years. But there is also an 573 00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:58,450 Speaker 3: abundance of what is called CSAM material. You know what 574 00:40:58,469 --> 00:41:04,709 Speaker 3: CSAM material is? Child sex abuse material. What do I mean? 575 00:41:05,250 --> 00:41:05,830 Speaker 1: The pictures. 576 00:41:06,350 --> 00:41:11,660 Speaker 3: He's an archivist. He keeps not just pictures, he kept 577 00:41:12,260 --> 00:41:19,540 Speaker 3: the panties of his victims. So when the when the 578 00:41:19,700 --> 00:41:26,370 Speaker 3: Carmel PD cops finally, finally, years, six years after Robin's disappearance, 579 00:41:26,770 --> 00:41:33,049 Speaker 3: searched Howard Gombert's dwelling, they found a suitcase. And in 580 00:41:33,090 --> 00:41:37,770 Speaker 3: that suitcase were 12 pairs, not nine, we report nine, 581 00:41:37,810 --> 00:41:43,930 Speaker 3: but there were 12 pairs of girls' and women's underwear, lovingly, 582 00:41:44,390 --> 00:41:54,720 Speaker 3: painstakingly separated, and sealed in vacuum-locked plastic bags. 583 00:41:55,560 --> 00:41:56,720 Speaker 1: Grow up. Why? 584 00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:00,910 Speaker 3: Why do serial pedophiles do this? 585 00:42:01,469 --> 00:42:03,950 Speaker 1: Same reason. I've heard the serial killers, too. It's a 586 00:42:04,110 --> 00:42:05,050 Speaker 1: pride thing, right? 587 00:42:05,969 --> 00:42:11,090 Speaker 3: It's not pride. It is, first of all, their way 588 00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 3: of remembering the victim, remembering... their helplessness, remembering their suffering, 589 00:42:19,660 --> 00:42:23,719 Speaker 3: it is also the most potent way for them to 590 00:42:23,860 --> 00:42:32,800 Speaker 3: re-experience the rape, to re-experience the violation. Why? That underwear 591 00:42:32,860 --> 00:42:40,859 Speaker 3: is unwashed. It's taken from... So, yeah, and You know, 592 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:45,049 Speaker 3: we spent a lot of time talking to FBI profilers. 593 00:42:45,290 --> 00:42:51,210 Speaker 3: One in particular was very good on why men like 594 00:42:51,350 --> 00:43:00,390 Speaker 3: Gombert always stage these rituals with his victims. They were 595 00:43:00,410 --> 00:43:06,020 Speaker 3: always bound, very often had their soiled underwear shoved in 596 00:43:06,060 --> 00:43:10,439 Speaker 3: their mouths as gags. and their bras tied around their 597 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:18,810 Speaker 3: eyes as a blindfold. And he was an extraordinarily skillful outdoorsman, 598 00:43:19,489 --> 00:43:22,570 Speaker 3: someone who had grown up sleeping in a tent because 599 00:43:22,590 --> 00:43:25,969 Speaker 3: he'd been kicked out of his father's house at 15 600 00:43:25,969 --> 00:43:31,320 Speaker 3: and 16. And he literally overwintered in the thick of 601 00:43:31,420 --> 00:43:35,620 Speaker 3: a northeast winter for years in the woods behind his 602 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:40,450 Speaker 3: father's house in a flimsy tent with just a blanket 603 00:43:40,890 --> 00:43:46,029 Speaker 3: and whatever he was wearing for warmth. And so this 604 00:43:46,110 --> 00:43:49,330 Speaker 3: is a guy who knows those woods like the back 605 00:43:49,370 --> 00:43:55,430 Speaker 3: of his hand. This was particularly important in the jokes 606 00:43:55,510 --> 00:43:58,379 Speaker 3: at Wright Murder, because when I went into the woods 607 00:43:58,420 --> 00:44:02,219 Speaker 3: where she was buried, I am telling you, Jennifer, you 608 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:06,060 Speaker 3: could not get there from the road. It was so dark. 609 00:44:06,620 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 3: impossible to get through the thorns, the stickers, the rock walls. 610 00:44:13,620 --> 00:44:18,029 Speaker 3: It took me a half hour with three private detectives 611 00:44:19,010 --> 00:44:23,130 Speaker 3: and two veteran woodsmen to get to the scene of 612 00:44:23,270 --> 00:44:28,110 Speaker 3: where Josette was buried. It was so impenetrable. 613 00:44:28,140 --> 00:44:30,520 Speaker 1: And the fact that he... So it's just Moore, as 614 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:32,020 Speaker 1: if Moore is needed, to say. 615 00:44:32,180 --> 00:44:32,580 Speaker 3: Exactly. 616 00:44:32,620 --> 00:44:33,440 Speaker 1: Not many. 617 00:44:34,010 --> 00:44:39,160 Speaker 2: young boys, not to Pippo, not that it's, it's a right. 618 00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: We're already. 619 00:44:40,460 --> 00:44:40,740 Speaker 3: Yes. 620 00:44:41,260 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 1: Tell me this. He's getting out in January. 621 00:44:45,340 --> 00:44:46,860 Speaker 3: 11th is the date we hear. 622 00:44:46,960 --> 00:44:47,240 Speaker 1: Okay. 623 00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:51,100 Speaker 2: So my question is, so now thank God he was 624 00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:56,469 Speaker 2: so steadfast about keeping these poor fucking girls tokens. And 625 00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:59,850 Speaker 2: tell me now that you have that. I'm picturing he's 626 00:44:59,870 --> 00:45:02,500 Speaker 2: going to walk out of the jail. He's going to 627 00:45:02,540 --> 00:45:05,770 Speaker 2: get picked up by the police and they're going to 628 00:45:05,810 --> 00:45:08,810 Speaker 2: deposit him right back in. I mean, I'm picturing that 629 00:45:09,130 --> 00:45:10,170 Speaker 2: is what's going to happen. 630 00:45:11,070 --> 00:45:15,670 Speaker 3: That is not only the hope, but the plan. But 631 00:45:16,130 --> 00:45:25,700 Speaker 3: there are still three months and there are multiple, multiple 632 00:45:25,739 --> 00:45:27,819 Speaker 3: things going on in the background that I just can't 633 00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:28,440 Speaker 3: talk about. 634 00:45:28,860 --> 00:45:29,700 Speaker 1: And tentacles. 635 00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:31,660 Speaker 2: And it seems as if this is not just going to, 636 00:45:31,700 --> 00:45:34,600 Speaker 2: he's not the only one going down. I mean, that's what, 637 00:45:35,540 --> 00:45:37,339 Speaker 2: you know, I'm, I'm getting, I'm picking up from what 638 00:45:37,380 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 2: you're putting down here, but Paul, I cannot believe it's, 639 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:41,180 Speaker 2: it's a. 640 00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:42,060 Speaker 1: Very different thing. 641 00:45:42,620 --> 00:45:45,810 Speaker 2: Listening to this, listening to the pot and getting to 642 00:45:45,850 --> 00:45:48,330 Speaker 2: talk to you like this. We have three episodes out, 643 00:45:48,630 --> 00:45:51,850 Speaker 2: three or out, three out the eighth. We're not, you're 644 00:45:51,870 --> 00:45:52,370 Speaker 2: not putting up. 645 00:45:53,670 --> 00:45:56,969 Speaker 3: And unfortunately, because we've had so little time to make 646 00:45:56,989 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 3: season two, it took us, 13 months to make season one. 647 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,779 Speaker 3: We've had four and a half because the series was 648 00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 3: so popular. We wanted to come right back with season two. 649 00:46:08,580 --> 00:46:12,980 Speaker 3: But so we've got seven episodes that are either written, produced, 650 00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:18,140 Speaker 3: recorded or in process. And then the eighth will save 651 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,470 Speaker 3: until the click of those manacles go. Yes. 652 00:46:23,830 --> 00:46:26,350 Speaker 2: So when you come back though, and we can discuss 653 00:46:26,410 --> 00:46:29,489 Speaker 2: it now, maybe in three episodes or something, we'll give 654 00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:30,319 Speaker 2: it three more. 655 00:46:30,340 --> 00:46:32,060 Speaker 1: I love that. 656 00:46:32,140 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 3: Absolutely. 657 00:46:33,420 --> 00:46:36,900 Speaker 1: I mean, it's horrifying. It's horrifying. It's sad. It's appalling. 658 00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,339 Speaker 2: It's infuriating, but it's so, I love doing pods like 659 00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:46,440 Speaker 2: this with people like you who are, so it's making 660 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:47,940 Speaker 2: a difference, but you really are. 661 00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:49,860 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us. I'm in awe. 662 00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:51,740 Speaker 1: So we'll see you in about three more episodes. Okay. 663 00:46:52,190 --> 00:46:53,169 Speaker 3: You've got it, my friend.