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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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Speaker 1: to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: I think that the loved ones of people who got

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Speaker 2: in mishity I really want to cling to hope. There's

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Speaker 2: this candle they want to keep a lot that she

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Speaker 2: might be coming back.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists,

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Speaker 1: filmmakers and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious

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Speaker 1: true crime cases. This is about the choices writers made,

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Speaker 1: both good and bad, and it's a deep dive into

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Speaker 1: the unpublished details behind their stories. This next story needs

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Speaker 1: a trigger warning. It's about the grooming and the sexual

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Speaker 1: assault of children. But it was an important case in

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Speaker 1: Australia and author Hedley Thomas tells it well. He details

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Speaker 1: the murder case of Chris Dawson in his book The

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Speaker 1: Teacher's Pet. It was based on his record breaking podcast

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Speaker 1: that eventually attracted the attention of the Australian government. One note,

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Speaker 1: we recorded this when Headley was on the road, so

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Speaker 1: it can be a little bit noisy at times. Let's

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Speaker 1: start from the beginning. Where does it make sense for

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Speaker 1: us to meet Lynn.

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Speaker 2: Lynn and Chris were high school sweethearts. They had met

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Speaker 2: through their neighboring high schools in Sydney. Both were very

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Speaker 2: well known, very popular, high achieving students, and they were

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Speaker 2: both genetically blessed, very attractive couple. And we're going back

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Speaker 2: now to the sixties and seventies. That's when they first

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Speaker 2: got together. They married, they moved to the Northern Beaches

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Speaker 2: of Sydney, which was some distance away from their childhood homes,

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Speaker 2: but another beautiful area of Sydney with close access to

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Speaker 2: the beaches, beautiful views over pit border, and the kind

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Speaker 2: of place that people said when things went on there,

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Speaker 2: the secrets were well kept. It's a peninsula and they

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Speaker 2: called it the Insular Peninsula, and people knew each other's business.

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Speaker 2: But once you crossed the Spit Bridge to get to

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Speaker 2: the peninsula, it's like you were in another place, another time.

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Speaker 2: And that became important in terms of understanding the culture

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Speaker 2: that was unfolding at the time that Chris and Limn

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Speaker 2: were married, and another person ended up becoming part of

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Speaker 2: their family.

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Speaker 1: What is your impression of the dynamic between Chris and

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Speaker 1: Lynn in the good times? They had a good marriage

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Speaker 1: as far as most people knew from the beginning, I

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Speaker 1: mean high school sweethearts.

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Speaker 2: Look, they must have had a very affectionate relationship for

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Speaker 2: some years. People say that they look very happy together.

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Speaker 2: They didn't project, at least in the early years, signs

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Speaker 2: of trouble and distress. Having said that, Chris was quite

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Speaker 2: different in a number of ways. He was very controlling.

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Speaker 2: He had some coercive behaviors that were identifiable early on.

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Speaker 2: He was incredibly mean with money and would be careful

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Speaker 2: to ensure that the household budget was scrupulously kept. But

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Speaker 2: more than all of that, he had a highly unusual

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Speaker 2: relationship with his twin brother, Paul. They were twins whose

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Speaker 2: closeness was remarked upon by everybody I spoke to because

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Speaker 2: it was unlike anything people had seen before. They did

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Speaker 2: everything together. They as adults even dressed the same a

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Speaker 2: lot of the time. When they would go out. They

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Speaker 2: socialized together, They built their homes within a couple of

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Speaker 2: one hundred meters of each other in the same street.

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Speaker 2: They shared every secret, they shared holidays. They both became

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Speaker 2: first grade rugby league players after playing in the same

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Speaker 2: club as rugby union players. They insisted on playing together

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Speaker 2: in the Newtown Jets rugby league club, which in the

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Speaker 2: seventies was renowned for its links to underworld crime figures.

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Speaker 2: And they both wanted to be fathers. Paul had two

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Speaker 2: children and then a third. Chris was having trouble with

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Speaker 2: his ambitions to be a father. There were some difficulties

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Speaker 2: because Lynn was having trouble conceiving until she had a

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Speaker 2: procedure which made her miracle babies suddenly viable, and she

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Speaker 2: was able to have two beautiful little girls. And after

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Speaker 2: the years of longing for children and all of the

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Speaker 2: distress that she felt and seeing her friends and other

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Speaker 2: relations becoming pregnant and having families and her inability to

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Speaker 2: have kids, she was now raising her own little girls

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Speaker 2: and she doated on them. And I think it's a

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Speaker 2: really significant feature of this story because Lynn disappears and

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Speaker 2: doesn't have any further contact with her children, although Chris

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Speaker 2: says she maintained some contact with him for several weeks. Now,

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Speaker 2: of course, there will be a number of examples and

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Speaker 2: case studies of mothers and young mothers walking out on

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Speaker 2: families and never contacting their children again. But everybody who

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Speaker 2: knew Lynn said that that was so out of character,

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Speaker 2: it was so ridiculous a notion, particularly after all the

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Speaker 2: trouble that she had gone to to have children, the

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Speaker 2: idea that she would have walked away from her kids

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Speaker 2: and stayed away, and of course walked away from her

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Speaker 2: very tight knit family, her mother, her father, and two

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Speaker 2: brothers and her sister.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back a little bit to the relationship between

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Speaker 1: Paul and Chris. Did Lynn talk about this to anybody?

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Speaker 1: Did she say, my husband is really way too close

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Speaker 1: to his twin and it's invasive in our wife.

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Speaker 2: Lynn no doubt confided some of these things to her friends,

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Speaker 2: And I know from Lynn's brothers and sister that at

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Speaker 2: times she raised an eyebrow over the relationship. But Chris

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Speaker 2: and Paul were very dominant figures. They were strong willed,

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Speaker 2: they were the men of the house. This was the

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Speaker 2: seventies and eighties. You know, women's rights were not really

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Speaker 2: well developed at that time, and we have footage and

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Speaker 2: audio of Lynn from interviews that she did in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventies when Chris and Paul were being profiled in

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Speaker 2: this program about twins and their particular closeness was closely scrutinized,

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Speaker 2: and Lynn speaks about it and describes how, yes, they

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Speaker 2: are really close, but that's a nice thing, and they

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Speaker 2: support each other. They do everything together, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it's really good that Chris has his best friend in Paul,

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Speaker 2: and vice versa.

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Speaker 1: Now we know that Chris, it sounds like, is you know,

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Speaker 1: really tight with money, very controlling, dominating figure. Is he

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Speaker 1: having extramarital affairs all the way up until she goes missing? Also,

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Speaker 1: other than the major relationship that we're going to talk about.

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Speaker 2: As a very popular physical education teacher on the Northern Beaches,

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Speaker 2: Chris was surrounded by young girls and young boys and

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Speaker 2: they looked up to him, fifteen and sixteen year olds.

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Speaker 2: They'd grown up watching him play football. He was on

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Speaker 2: their television screens through that period. And then he was

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Speaker 2: still appearing on television because he was a male model.

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Speaker 2: He was doing advertisements for corn chip makers, gene manufacturers,

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Speaker 2: and so on, and he would pose and he looked great.

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Speaker 2: I've seen the posters, and I've seen some of the

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Speaker 2: footage of him as a young man. He always did

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Speaker 2: these ads with his brother Paul, of course, but it

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Speaker 2: all lent itself to the image of these very handsome,

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Speaker 2: very muscular, and very charismatic young men. As a result,

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Speaker 2: he had a lot of the high school students wanting

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Speaker 2: to spend time with them in the staff room at

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Speaker 2: the beach after school. And what Chris would do and

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Speaker 2: what Paul would do was groom young girls, initially offering

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Speaker 2: them counseling and special help, giving them advice on diet

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Speaker 2: or exercise if they were having troubles at home, being

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Speaker 2: prepared to end a friendly hear and then take advantage

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Speaker 2: of that and these relationships if that's what they were

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Speaker 2: developed through that period. And it seems that Paul was

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Speaker 2: taking the lead at a different high school on the

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Speaker 2: Northern Beaches, and he and Chris would go out together

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Speaker 2: into the beach and on drives with their respective students

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Speaker 2: who were their interest. And there were a number of

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Speaker 2: these occasions which students have talked to me about and

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Speaker 2: have talked to police about. Sex was usually at the

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Speaker 2: heart of all of them, and a lot of these

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Speaker 2: girls believed that they were in love or had some

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Speaker 2: special connection with their teachers. They were very young, age sixteen.

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Speaker 2: One girl said that she was fifteen, and in Australia

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Speaker 2: at that time it was a criminal offense if you

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Speaker 2: were a person in authority, such as a school teacher,

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Speaker 2: to be having sex with a girl age sixteen.

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Speaker 1: Did you find evidence that that administrators at the school

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Speaker 1: and at Paul School also knew about any of this?

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Speaker 1: Did parents complain or were there rumors anywhere?

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Speaker 2: Yes, the school staff knew about it. Number of parents

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Speaker 2: of other students knew about it, and even the parents

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Speaker 2: of the girls who were affected. Some of those parents

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Speaker 2: knew about it and attempted to raise it with the school.

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Speaker 2: I've interviewed the former deputy head of the Cromer High

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Speaker 2: School where Chrys Dawson taught about it, and an elderly man.

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Speaker 2: When I spoke to him, he's now deceased. He acknowledged

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Speaker 2: that this was going on, or seemed to him it

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Speaker 2: was going on, but he said, well, what can I do.

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Speaker 2: I don't have my own investigative agency. And you've got

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Speaker 2: to be really careful when you're making these kinds of

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Speaker 2: allegations about other teachers, and he was very powerful, and

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Speaker 2: he had friends in high places. So you know, there was,

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Speaker 2: i think, by the school administrators and by others in

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Speaker 2: the community, a terrible failure to act on very obvious

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Speaker 2: instances of what we would now regard as sexual abuse

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Speaker 2: of children.

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Speaker 1: Did you get the impression from anyone you spoke with

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Speaker 1: that Lynn knew about anything that was happening.

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Speaker 2: Yes. Lynn must have become aware that Chris had become

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Speaker 2: infatuated with one schoolgirl in particular, and we'll refer to

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Speaker 2: her as JC. The reason Lynn must have become aware

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Speaker 2: was because, several months after Chris had got his wish

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Speaker 2: to have JC come and live with them in their

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Speaker 2: family home, and Chris said that this was necessary because

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Speaker 2: JAC needed a stable home. She was having a lot

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Speaker 2: of trouble in her own home with an abusive stepfather

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Speaker 2: and a drunken mother. Lynn noticed that there was a

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Speaker 2: very unusual closeness between her husband and the girl. The

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Speaker 2: girl was a babysitter, and Lynn initially liked and supported her.

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Speaker 2: And one of the tragedies is that that girl has

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Speaker 2: said that Lynn was the kindest person to her, perhaps

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Speaker 2: the kindest person she had encountered in her own life

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Speaker 2: to that stage, but Lynn realized that she was being

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Speaker 2: terribly betrayed under her own roof by her husband. Chris

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Speaker 2: would make his wife a cocktail in the evenings, and

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Speaker 2: it had the uncanny knack of putting Lynn to sleep.

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Speaker 2: It would make her very drowsy, and she would go

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Speaker 2: to bed early, and then Chris and the girl would

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Speaker 2: do what Chris always wanted her. Therefore, it continued for

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Speaker 2: some time until Lynn realized what had been going on.

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Speaker 2: One of the catalysts for her realization was a visit

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Speaker 2: by her mother to a hospital where Chris was having

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Speaker 2: an operation on his nose that had been whacked one

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Speaker 2: too many times in a football game and it was

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Speaker 2: being straightened up, and Chris had told Lynn to stay

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Speaker 2: away from the hospital. He didn't want to be getting

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Speaker 2: visits from his wife. There was a tension between them.

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Speaker 2: He was being very mean towards her, clearly there was

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Speaker 2: a lot of anger in him while he was besotted

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Speaker 2: with this schoolgirl. Lynn's mother noted that Chris was being

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Speaker 2: tended very affectionately at his hospital dead by this girl

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Speaker 2: in her school uniform. She was dabbing his nose and

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Speaker 2: making eyes with him, and she reported it to her daughter,

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Speaker 2: and her father said, tell Lynn to get her out

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Speaker 2: of the house. So Lynn did ask JC to leave

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Speaker 2: the house immediately, and she packed up her bag and

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Speaker 2: then wandered down the road to Chris's brother Paul's house,

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Speaker 2: where she moved in and lived while she was finishing

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Speaker 2: her schooling. So under her nose, Linn's brother in law

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Speaker 2: and Lynn's sister in law were sheltering this young girl,

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Speaker 2: a vulnerable kid who just needed looking after rather than

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Speaker 2: the terrible exploitation that she was exposed to. But she

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Speaker 2: was being sheltered in secrecy by Linn's own in laws.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back clarify for me the timeline. So Lynn

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Speaker 1: and Chris are together in the six season seventies high

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Speaker 1: school Sweethearts. When we get to nineteen eighty two where

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Speaker 1: Lynn goes missing, how long had JC been living with

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Speaker 1: Chris and Lynn before this all blows up and she

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Speaker 1: moves in with Paul and his wife.

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Speaker 2: The grooming of JC began when she was in year

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Speaker 2: eleven at Cromer High School. It starts fairly early in

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Speaker 2: the year. Chris had targeted JC when he saw her

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Speaker 2: in the school playground, and then in late nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 2: he asked Lynn, or effectively demanded to Linn that JC

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Speaker 2: be allowed to move in. So she moves in and

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Speaker 2: she's in the house for several months until around October

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Speaker 2: of nineteen eighty one, when Linn puts her foot down

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Speaker 2: and says, enough, you've been taking liberties with my husband,

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Speaker 2: which was a curious phrase because one is a schoolgirl,

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Speaker 2: she's a child, and her husband is a man in

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Speaker 2: his early thirties. If anybody was taking liberties, it was

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Speaker 2: the adult male, not the child. But that's how Linn

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Speaker 2: raised it, and that may have been the product of

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Speaker 2: that era as well. Very shortly before Christmas nineteen eighty one,

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Speaker 2: Chris presents his wife Lynn with a sales contract and

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Speaker 2: he wants Lynn to sign it. It's a contract to

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Speaker 2: sell their home, a beautiful property that Lynn has very

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Speaker 2: lovingly decorated and furnished, saving up her own funds from

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Speaker 2: a part time job and a childcare center, working really

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Speaker 2: hard to make it look as good as it possibly can,

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Speaker 2: and it's a prize home. It was worth a lot

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Speaker 2: of money at that time, but Chris wants it sold

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Speaker 2: because he clearly wants to separate from Lynn. He wants

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Speaker 2: to live with JC. They've even visited a couple of

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00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,760
Speaker 2: flats around the area, very small, modest flats because they

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Speaker 2: couldn't afford much. Chris had commitments with his two young girls.

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Speaker 2: He was making mortgageory payments, so he had a plan

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Speaker 2: didn't sign it. She didn't want to sell her home.

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Speaker 2: She wanted to salvage the marriage. She believed that it

255
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Speaker 2: could be retrieved, so this contract remained unsigned. Chris then

256
00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 2: decides that he needs to just start again. He needs

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Speaker 2: to go away with JC. They will start a new

258
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Speaker 2: life in the state of Queensland, about nine hundred kilometers

259
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Speaker 2: to the north. They would move to Brisbane or the

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Speaker 2: Gold Coast again lovely beaches, but far away from his wife,

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Speaker 2: who he has come to loathe. He resents her because

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Speaker 2: she's this barrier. She's stopping him from having the girl

263
00:17:39,000 --> 00:17:43,760
Speaker 2: that he has become utterly infatuated with. So they start driving.

264
00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:48,720
Speaker 2: They leave just before Christmas and he has packed up

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Speaker 2: his most beloved possessions, including his pillow. It's all gone

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Speaker 2: into the vehicle. They've started driving north. They get to

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Speaker 2: the border with Queensland, but JC is having sex and

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Speaker 2: thought she regrets this decision. She's just finished high school.

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Speaker 2: She's leaving behind her own family, her sisters, her friends.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't sit well and she's breaking out in hives.

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Speaker 2: So she says, I want to go back. I can't

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Speaker 2: deal with this. The relationship had become very difficult, the

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Speaker 2: secrecy and then the exposure, the gossip, the tensions. She

274
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:23,960
Speaker 2: didn't think she'd never be able to have Chris because

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Speaker 2: Lynn wasn't going to sell the house and how complicated

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Speaker 2: would it all be. Plus she was probably thinking about

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Speaker 2: having a relationship with someone her own age, someone who

278
00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:38,800
Speaker 2: was sixteen or seventeen. So they drive all the way

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Speaker 2: back to Sydney, and he doesn't want to go into

280
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Speaker 2: his own home. He's left a note for Lynn saying

281
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Speaker 2: I'm leaving, Please don't paint too black a picture of

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00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 2: me to the kids. But he drives back, goes to

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00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,120
Speaker 2: his brother's house. They stay there in the spare room,

284
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Speaker 2: and then they spend Christmas night sleeping on the gym

285
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Speaker 2: mats in the high school. Instead of forking out for

286
00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 2: a motel for the woman, he says he wants to

287
00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,399
Speaker 2: spend the rest of his life with. That's where they

288
00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:11,560
Speaker 2: end up spending Christmas night, and for the next week

289
00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 2: or so, JC must be reflecting and thinking, this relationship

290
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,920
Speaker 2: is impossible. How are we ever going to get through this?

291
00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,359
Speaker 2: I need a break and perhaps it should just be ended.

292
00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:29,640
Speaker 2: She goes on a schooli's trip with her friends. They

293
00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 2: go to a place called Southwest Rocks. It's about a

294
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,400
Speaker 2: four hour drive from Sydney. It's on the beach there,

295
00:19:35,800 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 2: staying intense in caravans. She's had a great time, but

296
00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:43,160
Speaker 2: while she's up there, Chris is desperately worried that he's

297
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:46,919
Speaker 2: going to lose her. She's meeting and going out with

298
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Speaker 2: and having fun with people her own age. He's tried

299
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Speaker 2: to stop that. He's tried to control her behavior. He

300
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 2: wants her all to himself, and she's just slipping from

301
00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:00,400
Speaker 2: his grasp. He's ringing her or telling her to ring

302
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,879
Speaker 2: him every day that she's up there, and he tells

303
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:07,640
Speaker 2: her one day in the second week of January, Lin's

304
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,000
Speaker 2: gone and she's not coming back. I need you to

305
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,639
Speaker 2: come back here to be with me and the kids.

306
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: And he drives up there and grabs her. She moves

307
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,640
Speaker 2: in and people just go on as if nothing's happened.

308
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:22,320
Speaker 2: And Lynn's never seen again.

309
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:30,119
Speaker 1: What is jc's reaction. Surely she's upset about going back

310
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Speaker 1: and being with this man she was trying to break

311
00:20:32,560 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 1: up with to begin with. Did she believe Chris's story

312
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,440
Speaker 1: that Lynn just said him out, I'm not going to

313
00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 1: do this anymore, I'm leaving my family.

314
00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:44,200
Speaker 2: She believed what Chris told her, which was that Lynn

315
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,280
Speaker 2: said she wanted to go away for a while. And

316
00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,760
Speaker 2: who knows, she's probably joined that weird cult. Maybe she's

317
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,199
Speaker 2: run off with them, or you know, she's gone to

318
00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 2: New Zealand, she's moved to Perth on the other side

319
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 2: of Australia. She believed that there were no unusual circumstances,

320
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 2: even though as she surveyed the bedroom, she realized that

321
00:21:04,720 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: nothing had been taken. All of Lynn's clothes were there.

322
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:13,560
Speaker 2: Even Lynn's jewelry and underwear was still in place. And

323
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 2: Jason knew this because she had spent a lot of

324
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 2: time in the house. She had lived in the house,

325
00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 2: she had been babysiteing the children for several months, she

326
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,679
Speaker 2: had been in the bedroom. Lynn had caught her and

327
00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:30,720
Speaker 2: Chris having sex in the marital bedroom.

328
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Speaker 1: Wow, now the impression I got from you is that

329
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,240
Speaker 1: Lynn was very close with her mother and her father.

330
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Speaker 1: When did they start to become alarmed or who was

331
00:21:39,520 --> 00:21:42,600
Speaker 1: the first person to say, we haven't heard from Lynn

332
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Speaker 1: in too long.

333
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:49,480
Speaker 2: Lynn's parents and Lynn's two brothers and sister were all

334
00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: immediately very concerned for Lynn's welfare. And he's the really

335
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:58,080
Speaker 2: unusual thing. They believed. Chris, their son in law, their

336
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 2: brother in law too. He was able to assure them

337
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 2: that Lynn said that she just wanted some time away,

338
00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: and he said to them that she had been calling

339
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 2: him and letting him know that she was fine, she

340
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 2: was safe. She just ended a bit more time away.

341
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 2: So they were unaware of how soon Linn was replaced

342
00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,400
Speaker 2: in the home. The course of the distance between Bayview

343
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: on the Northern Beaches and where Lynn's siblings and where

344
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:29,080
Speaker 2: Lynn's parents lived, They did not have the knowledge that

345
00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:35,399
Speaker 2: things had changed so quickly and so extraordinarily. However, Lynn's

346
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,440
Speaker 2: friends in the childcare center where Lynn worked, she was

347
00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:43,879
Speaker 2: a nurse, and she had done some remarkable nursing work

348
00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:48,040
Speaker 2: in major public hospitals before when her children were born,

349
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: deciding to work part time at a childcare center as

350
00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,479
Speaker 2: the nurse on duty, and Lynn's very good friends in

351
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 2: that childcare center were immediately suspicious because Lynn had been

352
00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:04,400
Speaker 2: confiding to them her fears and concerns about the burgeoning

353
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 2: affection that Chris was showing towards JC over the previous months.

354
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,800
Speaker 2: They had even seen Lynn and Chris go off to

355
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: what Lynn called marriage counseling, and that occurred in early

356
00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 2: January nine eighty two, the first week of January, when

357
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 2: they left and went to a nearby marriage counselor's office suite,

358
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 2: and when they returned, Lynn's friends saw them holding hands.

359
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:35,640
Speaker 2: They appeared to be very close together again, and Lynn

360
00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,119
Speaker 2: was smiling, and she told her family afterwards, everything's going

361
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:42,639
Speaker 2: to be all right. Lynn and Chris went home that

362
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 2: evening and Lynn had a conversation with her mother, who

363
00:23:46,119 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 2: rang and wanted to find out how things had gone.

364
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 2: And Lynn sounded like she had been drinking. But Lynn

365
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,919
Speaker 2: wasn't a drinker except for when Chris made her a drink.

366
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 2: She didn't enjoy our alcohol, so she was only a

367
00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 2: very light social drinker. But her mother detected this slurring

368
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,800
Speaker 2: of her words and she commented on it to Lynn,

369
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 2: and Linn said, oh, Chris has just made me a

370
00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,439
Speaker 2: lovely drink, and her mother never spoke to her again,

371
00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 2: and nobody did.

372
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 1: So she drops off the face of the earth in

373
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 1: January of nineteen eighty two, and Chris just moves on.

374
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: At what point is there really like an emergency, like

375
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: people think something has to be done and then the

376
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 1: parents become alarmed.

377
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, it takes some time because Chris puts off

378
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 2: reporting Lind's disappearance for about six weeks. He only reports

379
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 2: her disappearance at the insistence of Lynn's family. Lyn's parents

380
00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 2: worried sick, and Lynn's mother goes out looking for Lynn.

381
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:54,359
Speaker 2: She travels to the northern Beaches. She travels up to

382
00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: the central coast, where Chris said that Linn had gone.

383
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 2: She's ringing around Lind's friend. Nobody has seen Lynn. Chris

384
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: keeps saying, though that Lynn's fine, She's been in touch.

385
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: The week's turn into months and then years. Becomes apparent

386
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 2: eventually to Lynn's family that Chris has effectively wiped Lynn

387
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 2: from his affections. Chris turns up with a couple of

388
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: garbage bags full of Lynn's belongings and takes them into

389
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 2: the parents' home and says, these are Lins. I don't

390
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 2: know whether she's ever coming back. But you have them.

391
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:36,120
Speaker 2: He's gone there with Jc, the former schoolgirl who has

392
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 2: now become the stepmother. She soon after marries Chris. In

393
00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 2: the house, there's a very simple ceremony, very few guests.

394
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 2: Of course, Paul Dawson's there with his wife Marilyn, and

395
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 2: life continues as if nothing has changed for Chris. But

396
00:25:54,840 --> 00:26:00,480
Speaker 2: Lynn's friends are remaining very suspicious and they to get

397
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: the police involved, even right to the office of the Ombardsman.

398
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,680
Speaker 2: And the Ombudsman in Australia is a person who will

399
00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 2: investigate citizens' complaints about the failure of government agencies. And

400
00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: this woman, Sue Strath, very bravely writes and says, I

401
00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 2: don't think the police have done a professional job at

402
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 2: all investigating the disappearance of my good friend Lynn, who

403
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: loved her kids, loved her home, loved her husband, and

404
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 2: then suddenly disappears at the same time as her husband

405
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 2: is in this absolutely infatuated relationship with a teenage girl.

406
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 2: So how much more suspicion do you need? But the

407
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 2: Ombardsman ends up finding after following it up with the

408
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,000
Speaker 2: police that well, the parents didn't raise any concerns at

409
00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 2: the time, and no one else has suggested any wrongdoing,

410
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: and they don't even go and interview other students or

411
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 2: school staff to corroborate the version of events that Chris

412
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:56,959
Speaker 2: had a lot of motive to get rid of his

413
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: wife because he was seeing and then eventually the husband

414
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 2: of JC. So they get married in nine eighty four.

415
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: They have a child in early nine eighty five. That

416
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: child is born on the day three years later that

417
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 2: Lynn was murdered. By a terrible coincidence, Chris decides to

418
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 2: leave the Northern Beaches because Paul and Marylyn wanted to

419
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,199
Speaker 2: leave too. They wanted to move to Queensland, and in

420
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 2: nine eighty five they moved to the Gold Coast, where

421
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 2: Chris starts to teach at a school called Keebra Park

422
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 2: in Southport. That was my high school. I left Keebra

423
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 2: Park High at the end of nine eighty four and

424
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,679
Speaker 2: Chris starts there just weeks later and was teaching some

425
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 2: of my friends from the year below and teaching some

426
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: of my friends from the same year who had repeated

427
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 2: And so when I was working in my first job

428
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 2: as a newspaper reporter at the Gold Coast Bullet, just

429
00:27:56,480 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 2: a few kilometers from my school, I was reporting on

430
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 2: school rugby league, which Chris was then coaching at my

431
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: old school. I must have met him through that period,

432
00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:11,719
Speaker 2: but it's not until nineteen ninety that the police properly

433
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 2: investigate for the first time Lin's disappearance, and the catalyst

434
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:22,439
Speaker 2: for that was JC. Having had eight years with Chris

435
00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:26,919
Speaker 2: since Lyne's disappearance, having started a life with him and

436
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 2: built a home with him on the Gold Coast, she

437
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 2: decides she needs to flee. She's become concerned for her

438
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 2: own safety. She identifies in Chris the same behaviors as

439
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: he is grooming other schoolgirls at the school on the

440
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: Gold Coast that she was subjected to when she believed

441
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: she was the only one when she was a schoolgirl

442
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 2: in Sydney, and she packs up her things and takes

443
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: her daughter and they drive all the way back to

444
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 2: the northern beaches of Sydney and she goes to see

445
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 2: Linz family to tell them what her suspicions are. Up

446
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 2: to that point, which is eight years after Lynne's disappearance,

447
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 2: there had been no foul play investigation. She then goes

448
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: to see detectives and discloses to them what has gone on,

449
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 2: and she initiates divorce proceedings, and I think that for

450
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 2: her at that time there must have been a measure

451
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,880
Speaker 2: of concern that if she didn't do these things she

452
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,640
Speaker 2: could be killed. There was self protection as well as

453
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:33,800
Speaker 2: perhaps the unburdening of a belief that must have been

454
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 2: developing not just you know, over days, but months and

455
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: possibly a couple of years. I don't think you suddenly

456
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 2: wake up and decide my husband murdered his first wife

457
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: eight years ago so that he could be with me.

458
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious about the impression people had of

459
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: Lynn as a mother, which it sounds like she was

460
00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: an outstanding mother, very close to her two girls. I

461
00:29:56,360 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 1: just don't understand why her parents weren't more can concern.

462
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 1: It seems like so out of her character. Did that

463
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: not come up for them very often? That there's no

464
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: way she would take off and leave her two kids.

465
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: And Kate, I've wondered the same thing, and I've tried

466
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,840
Speaker 2: to get my head around that. And what makes it

467
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: slightly more complicated is that very early in the peace,

468
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,760
Speaker 2: soon after Lynn had disappeared, her father, Lynn said to

469
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: his son and to his wife, the bastard's done her

470
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 2: in and so he had that belief early on he

471
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: was in ill health, perhaps he didn't believe that he

472
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: could do much about it. His own children still wanted

473
00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,600
Speaker 2: to believe that Lynn was safe and well, and for

474
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: some reason just couldn't come back to face the embarrassment,

475
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: the shame of her husband having married this former babysitter.

476
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,200
Speaker 1: In fear because he sounds like he was very controlling

477
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 1: and potentially violent to begin with, So maybe she was

478
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: scared and they thought that too well.

479
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 2: I think that the loved ones of people who go missing,

480
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 2: despite a lot of evidence pointing to death, they really

481
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 2: want to cling to hope that their sister or daughter

482
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 2: is still alive. And that's a perfectly understandable human emotion.

483
00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: If they apply the sort of logic that we might

484
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 2: apply from our detached position, they're never going to see

485
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 2: their loved one again. So there's this candle they want

486
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,720
Speaker 2: to keep alight that she might be coming back. And

487
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: it takes an intervention by someone like JC who says,

488
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 2: these are the things that happened, These are the things

489
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 2: that you perhaps didn't know. This is the timing of

490
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 2: events in terms of me coming into the house. This

491
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 2: is what Chris said to me. Lynn's gone she's not

492
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 2: coming back. I mean, how would he know unless he

493
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: had killed her, that she's not coming back.

494
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: So Jace goes to the police and says, I think

495
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: that my husband might have killed his first wife. I

496
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,480
Speaker 1: have left. I am divorcing him. What is the next

497
00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: step for the police? I'm assuming asking her what do

498
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: you think happened? Or how did this whole conversation go

499
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: between JC and investigators?

500
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: The police mount a homicide investigation, and I've interviewed one

501
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: of the homicide detectives who was part of that. They

502
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: interview Lynn's friends, they interview JC, they interview the parents,

503
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: and they interview in a videotaped session on the Gold

504
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:35,680
Speaker 2: Coast Chris Dawson, the person who they believe may well

505
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:40,560
Speaker 2: have murdered his wife and concealed her body. Many years later,

506
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: we were able to watch the video tape of this interview.

507
00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: I only had the audio of it for my podcast,

508
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,600
Speaker 2: but later on we were able to get access to

509
00:32:49,680 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 2: the video and it's extraordinary. You see this very handsome man,

510
00:32:54,560 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: he was teaching at the Old Coast High School, probably

511
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: had just left school to go to the police station

512
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 2: to deny that he had had anything to do with

513
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,959
Speaker 2: Lynd's disappearance. He talked about possibility that she'd gone off

514
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 2: to a colt. He said that she yeah, wasn't a

515
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 2: bad mother and it was out of character for her,

516
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 2: and she made a number of calls to him when

517
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 2: she first went away, but he doesn't understand why she

518
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 2: hasn't come back. He then said that his accuser, JC

519
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 2: was driven by bitterness that she was trying to get

520
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: custody of the children. It was all part of the

521
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 2: rancor and awful things that are sometimes said when a

522
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: marriage fails, and that she's trying to paint him in

523
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: the worst possible light because she's doing her best to

524
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: get the spoils of their marriage. He doesn't properly answer

525
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 2: a really logical question, which is you have marriage counseling,

526
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 2: and you've told us about the marriage counseling, and you've

527
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: said that it all seemed to go really well, and

528
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: you had high hopes, and Lynn had high hopes that

529
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 2: would go well. So if that's the case, why does

530
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: Lin leave early the next morning wearing just a pair

531
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 2: of pink shorts and a shirt and carrying a light

532
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:10,760
Speaker 2: shopping back. Why if she's got hopes that the marriage

533
00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 2: is going to be put back on track. Does she

534
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 2: just go and stay away? And nobody has ever heard

535
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: from her again, She hasn't touched the bank account, there's

536
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:23,239
Speaker 2: no sign that she's ever voted, or traveled or accessed

537
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:27,359
Speaker 2: any medical facility.

538
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: So ultimately it's his word against jc's word, and it

539
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: would be very difficult to track down Linn. I mean,

540
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: it's easy to say, well, listen, you know she's not

541
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,120
Speaker 1: using any of these resources. But then the flip side

542
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 1: is is how do you then discount what Chris is saying.

543
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: How were they able to proceed with an investigation to

544
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: find out whether or not Lynn was still alive.

545
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 2: Well, they relied in part on something Chris said, which

546
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:03,840
Speaker 2: was that Lynn had he believed, been seen by a

547
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 2: woman who was the wife of a guy Chris knew

548
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 2: well from his football playing days. A woman called Sue

549
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 2: Butler said to her husband, who told Chris, that she

550
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: thought she had seen Lynn at a fruit barn on

551
00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 2: the Central Coast, and Lynn didn't talk to her. She

552
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 2: didn't say, hey, Lynn, where have you been. You've been

553
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,719
Speaker 2: missing all this time. I'm so glad you're safe and well.

554
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 2: It was apparently a fleeting glimpse. The police took that

555
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 2: away and they got advice from lawyers and others about

556
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: what they could do, given that they had been investigating

557
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: this case for some months, and the advice was well,

558
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 2: with that sighting or so called sighting, it's going to

559
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: be really difficult to prove that she's not just living

560
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,560
Speaker 2: somewhere and she's not a murder victim at all. So

561
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: the police investigation was terminated. Bizarrely, the police didn't go

562
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 2: and corroborate Chris's claim about the sighting. They didn't go

563
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 2: an interview the woman purported to have made the sighting.

564
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 2: She then died several years later, and of course that

565
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 2: opportunity was lost forever. I should also point out, Kate,

566
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: that Chris had very good contacts with police, different police

567
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,359
Speaker 2: on the Northern Beaches. The football club that he and

568
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: Paul were playing for when they moved up to the

569
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 2: Northern Beaches after retiring from first grade rugby league was

570
00:36:26,640 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 2: called the Belmont Eagles, and one of the leaders of

571
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 2: that club was a very well known powerful cop, the

572
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: detective sergeant on the Northern Beaches, and he had helped

573
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 2: Chris come up with Chris's original statement about the circumstances

574
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,799
Speaker 2: surrounding Lynn's disappearance. This was also at a time of

575
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:51,879
Speaker 2: very cozy relationships between cops and footballers. It's a very masculine,

576
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 2: very misogynistic culture. I don't believe that a copper would

577
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: cover up for Chris Dawson if that copper believed that

578
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: Chris had killed his wife. But I think that a

579
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: copper who knew Chris Dawson and knew Paul Dawson, they

580
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: would turn a blind eye to doing a thorough investigation

581
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,720
Speaker 2: because you know, he's one of us, he's a mate,

582
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:14,440
Speaker 2: he plays for the team. Look, we can't upset him.

583
00:37:14,480 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 2: His wife's gone and abandoned him. You know, we've got

584
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 2: to get behind him.

585
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 1: Well, what happens next. It sounds like Chris has talked

586
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:23,680
Speaker 1: his way out of it. I'm assuming Paul has not

587
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,840
Speaker 1: said a word. And I'm sure jac is petrified because

588
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 1: now her soon to be ex husband is pissed at

589
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: her for going to the police. And it sounds like

590
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 1: we're kind of in the middle of a mess at

591
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,040
Speaker 1: this point.

592
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: That's right. So it's ninety ninety one. The police investigation

593
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 2: has been terminated. Nothing's really happening except Lynn's friends from

594
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:49,399
Speaker 2: the childcare center are becoming increasingly concerned as each year

595
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,279
Speaker 2: goes past. They just can't believe that nothing has been

596
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 2: done about this, and Sue Strath, the very good friend

597
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: who had contacted the ombudsman back in Ninein eety five,

598
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 2: she's got a friend on the Northern Beaches who's married

599
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 2: to a cop, and that cop he becomes in charge

600
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: of the local station, and she starts lobbying him and says,

601
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: when are you going to investigate the disappearance of my

602
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:15,920
Speaker 2: good Friendlyn. When are you going to do this properly?

603
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:20,879
Speaker 2: Nothing's been done. So he, having heard this story through

604
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,759
Speaker 2: Sue and through his own wife, who Sue has been

605
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 2: bobbing as well, he decides to put a detective called

606
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: Damien Loon onto the case. It's nineteen ninety eight. Damien

607
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,080
Speaker 2: is a detective senior constable, and he decides pretty early on,

608
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 2: having looked at the material and done number of interviews,

609
00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: that this was so suspicious that Lynn, with her incredible mothering,

610
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 2: commitment and devotion, with the equity in her house, with

611
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: her family ties, with everything that she had in her community,

612
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 2: would not have just gone away under the circumstances that

613
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 2: Chris purported had happened, and he really began turning over

614
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 2: old rocks and reinterviewing everybody, and he brings the case

615
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 2: to the coroner, which means that it becomes a case

616
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 2: heard over a number of days by a judicial officer,

617
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 2: a magistrate. And that magistrate his names Karl Milvanovitch. He

618
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,280
Speaker 2: was the deputy state coroner, and he in two thousand

619
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 2: and three holds public hearings. In two thousand and one,

620
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 2: three years after Damien's investigation started, another coroner had also

621
00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 2: heard the evidence and decided that Chris Dawson should be

622
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 2: prosecuted for the alleged murder of his wife Lynn, But

623
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 2: the office of the DPP in Sydney decided in two

624
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:47,320
Speaker 2: thousand and one, no, there's not enough evidence, there's nobody.

625
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 2: We're not going to do that. Damien then does more work.

626
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:56,040
Speaker 2: He gets a second inquest started with Karl Milavanovitch leading it,

627
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 2: and that hears from all the witnesses over a number

628
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,239
Speaker 2: of days, a number of public hearing days, and Carl

629
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:09,239
Speaker 2: Malvanovitch makes the same recommendation for a criminal prosecution. He

630
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,719
Speaker 2: says that a known person is capable of being convicted

631
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 2: for the murder of Lin Dawson. The DPP again says no,

632
00:40:18,600 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 2: not doing anything, and over a number of years following

633
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: that there's just spasmodic action by police and by prosecutors

634
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:33,640
Speaker 2: who go through the process of reviewing the file and

635
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 2: again saying no. I first wrote about this case in

636
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 2: two thousand and one, during and after the first inquest,

637
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:43,520
Speaker 2: and it remained a case that I wanted to revisit

638
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 2: when podcasting became something I thought I could exploit to

639
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 2: do a really deep dive and over multiple episodes and

640
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 2: in many months of investigation, tell this story that you

641
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:58,879
Speaker 2: know I had first heard about in two thousand and one.

642
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 2: So my investigation starts in late twenty seventeen. I go

643
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 2: and visit the family, Lynn's brothers and sister, and over

644
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: several months record hundreds of hours of audio and produced

645
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: the Teacher's Pet podcast series, which starts in May twenty

646
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:18,040
Speaker 2: eighteen with the first episode, and by the end of

647
00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, amid incredible backlash of community, public anger and

648
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: outrage that this case hasn't been prosecuted, that Lynn has

649
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:34,600
Speaker 2: been this model mother, this very forgiving wife, that all

650
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 2: of these deeply suspicious circumstances haven't led to the coroner's

651
00:41:39,320 --> 00:41:43,400
Speaker 2: recommendations being accepted by the DPP by the time the

652
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 2: sixteenth and final episode of The Teacher's Pet was unfolding

653
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: in December twenty eighteen, So seven months after we started

654
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: the series, Chris Dawson was arrested and charged over Lynn's

655
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:01,560
Speaker 2: murder and then we had to wait for a murder trial.

656
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:05,920
Speaker 1: And you know, with your podcast you had brought an

657
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,120
Speaker 1: incredible amount of attention and obviously you know that kind

658
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:13,400
Speaker 1: of media pressure has to influence everybody in society, and

659
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,160
Speaker 1: certainly you know people who were prosecuting the case, but

660
00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: didn't they have to pull Did you all pull the

661
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 1: podcast while he went on trial because the concern was

662
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: your podcast is so influential and powerful that he wouldn't

663
00:42:25,840 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 1: get a fair trial because of all the evidence you

664
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: dug up Or am I just simplifying the argument here?

665
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:35,000
Speaker 2: No, you're absolutely right. Okay. The Office of the DPP

666
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:39,880
Speaker 2: asked us in early twenty nineteen to withdraw the podcast

667
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: in Australia. Be course, it contained so much evidence, so

668
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 2: much material, none of which was inaccurate, but all of

669
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 2: it damning for Chris, and the concern was that he

670
00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 2: needed to get a fair trial, and the DPP probably

671
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,479
Speaker 2: wanted to cut off the arguments that Chris's lawyers would

672
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:02,080
Speaker 2: make that the podcast was still playing, he could never

673
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: get a fair trial. Now, newspapers are never withdrawn from circulation.

674
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 2: Libraries that hold archived newspapers are not culled of their

675
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 2: files because of the risk that the DURA might go

676
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 2: and read them. But the podcast is different because you

677
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: can access at any time and the delivery of the

678
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 2: audio is so easy, and you know, it was a

679
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:26,879
Speaker 2: sensible request and we took it very seriously and in

680
00:43:26,920 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 2: Australia we took the podcast down. It continued to play uninterrupted.

681
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: Outside Australia, it had gone to number one in the

682
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,600
Speaker 2: United States and Canada and the UK and New Zealand

683
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:42,800
Speaker 2: and other countries. But we decided that from early twenty

684
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,840
Speaker 2: nineteen until the verdict in the murder trial, which didn't

685
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: occur until twenty twenty two, it wouldn't be available to

686
00:43:51,040 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 2: Australian audiences.

687
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: So Chris Dawson goes on trial. Does his twin brother

688
00:43:56,440 --> 00:43:59,160
Speaker 1: who he is impossibly close with, play a role, Does

689
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: Paul play a role at all in this trial? Or

690
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: does he get any kind of punishment for any sleazy

691
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:06,280
Speaker 1: thing he's ever done.

692
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:11,680
Speaker 2: Paul Dawson has denied any wrongdoing. He's denied the allegations

693
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: made by other former school girls. Some of these allegations

694
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: have been set out in great and very distressing and

695
00:44:18,520 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: harrowing detail in their police statements, and without evidence from

696
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: a woman who may want to be a complainant, Without

697
00:44:28,520 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: a person coming forward and saying I am going to

698
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 2: go further than my statement, I'm actually now going to

699
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 2: make a complaint of underage sex with Paul Dawson, the

700
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: police can't do much and Paul was not connected to

701
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,960
Speaker 2: Lin's murder. There were certainly questions raised about what he

702
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,319
Speaker 2: knew and when he knew, but Paul always said no,

703
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: I didn't know anything, and Chris would not have killed

704
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 2: his wife, and I totally believe in my brother.

705
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 1: What I'm curious about is what role did Jesse have.

706
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 1: Did she testify during the trial.

707
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 2: When we finally got to the trial in twenty twenty two,

708
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 2: it was an enormous relief to Lynd's family and no

709
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 2: doubt to JC and the police, because since late twenty eighteen,

710
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: when Chris was charged over Lynn's murder. He had been

711
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: fighting tooth and nail with some very skillful defense lawyers

712
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 2: to argue that he should never have to face a trial,

713
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 2: and his major argument in that was the podcast. He

714
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: said he could not get a fair trial because of

715
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,319
Speaker 2: the Teacher's Pet podcast that I had done, and as

716
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 2: a result, the judge should permanently terminate all proceedings against

717
00:45:39,080 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: him and let him go back to his peaceful retirement

718
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 2: near the beach on the Sunshine Coast of Queensland. Now,

719
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: of course, the DPP argued strongly against that. There were

720
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,239
Speaker 2: many days of hearings as judges listened to some of

721
00:45:53,239 --> 00:45:56,400
Speaker 2: the interviews that I had done and studied my podcast.

722
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 2: I was in the witness box for three days answering

723
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:06,239
Speaker 2: questions from a very skillful senior criminal defense lawyer, and

724
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 2: I felt at times that this case was doomed. I

725
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 2: was very worried that the efforts that we had made

726
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:17,160
Speaker 2: to try to shine a light on what was a

727
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 2: terrible injustice, a failure of the criminal justice system over many,

728
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:25,880
Speaker 2: many years, would end up being distorted and turned into

729
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: a supposed failure of journalism in the case of recklessness

730
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: and irresponsibility, and said that I went too far. Nobody

731
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 2: said that I got any facts wrong. They didn't accuse

732
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:43,640
Speaker 2: me of making stuff up, or fabricating things or verbaling people. No,

733
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: it was that there was too much detail, and that's

734
00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:49,680
Speaker 2: what a podcast series, I feel, has meant to do.

735
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 2: In a case as old as Len's. We didn't have

736
00:46:53,280 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: too many options. How was it ever going to be

737
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: sold unless we fleshed it out. It had been a

738
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 2: cold case for a long time. The family had given

739
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 2: up hope. The podcast they saw as their last chance

740
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,319
Speaker 2: of getting justice. There were a number of very good

741
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,920
Speaker 2: witnesses during the murder trial. Chris didn't give any evidence

742
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 2: on his own behalf, and that's his right, but JC

743
00:47:17,920 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: did give powerful evidence. She strode to the witness box

744
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: as a woman who had been carrying this burden for

745
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 2: so long. She believed that her life had been, if

746
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:36,360
Speaker 2: not ruined, so badly affected by her contact with a

747
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,879
Speaker 2: school teacher, a man whom she believed was looking out

748
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 2: for her best interest when she was sixteen. But as

749
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:47,360
Speaker 2: she became an adult and studied psychology and learned about

750
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: the grioming behaviors of sex offenders, she realized that there

751
00:47:52,239 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 2: was always this incredibly selfish motive that Chris had to

752
00:47:58,400 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: control her. There are a number of other strong witnesses.

753
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 2: Of course, I didn't see many of the witnesses because

754
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 2: I was a witness myself in the murder trial. Again

755
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,680
Speaker 2: was part of the defense's attempt to suggest that journalism

756
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: had contaminated the whole process, rather than being the disinfectant

757
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 2: which allowed the light to pull in. But in the end,

758
00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 2: the judge, after a period of some weeks of deliberation,

759
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:28,320
Speaker 2: back in his chambers as he wrote his judgment, and

760
00:48:28,400 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: it was a judge alone trial. Chris had elected to

761
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:34,840
Speaker 2: dispense with a jury. It was his right to choose

762
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,080
Speaker 2: a judge because there had been so much publicity. The

763
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:41,240
Speaker 2: judge came back and said that he had no doubt

764
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 2: that Chris Dawson murdered Lynn, that Lynn had been dead

765
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:52,040
Speaker 2: for forty years, and that he should be sentenced until

766
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 2: effectively he dies in prison.

767
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 1: So that's it. He's given life in prison, and he's

768
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: still alive, I presume is.

769
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 2: And he's in a prison called Long Bay. It's a

770
00:49:02,760 --> 00:49:05,759
Speaker 2: very short distance from where he grew up in a

771
00:49:05,760 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 2: place called Maroubra near the beach in Sydney. And he

772
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 2: must reflect on how his life just began to spiral

773
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,560
Speaker 2: after he would have thought he'd got away with this.

774
00:49:19,840 --> 00:49:22,239
Speaker 2: He'd got away with it for a very very long time,

775
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 2: thirty six years from when Linn was murdered until when

776
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: he was charged. And if it hadn't been for the

777
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 2: podcast and the community outrage that followed, Lynn's family thinks

778
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 2: he would be continuing to get away with it.

779
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: Well, let's with this last bit bring it back to

780
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: the victim here, and you know, Lynn, we don't know

781
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,959
Speaker 1: what happened definitively. Does the family have hope in ever

782
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 1: finding her body or is this something they're pursuing or

783
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 1: is there just a closure for them moving forward?

784
00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 2: There must always be hope, but it's a pretty forlorn hope.

785
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 2: They I believe, have had closure since chrys Daw, since conviction.

786
00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:13,840
Speaker 2: I'm very close to Linn's brother and sister and Linn's

787
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 2: sister in law, and they're beautiful people and we catch

788
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:23,040
Speaker 2: up and they're incredibly warm. They're very honest, decent people,

789
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 2: and I think that is part of the explanation for

790
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 2: their acceptance for so long of the lies and deceit,

791
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,360
Speaker 2: and they just weren't aware of the scale of the betrayal,

792
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 2: and they sometimes say, how could we have been so

793
00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 2: naive for so long? You know, I think it's not

794
00:50:40,640 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 2: through anything except their own decency. Sometimes good people are

795
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:46,720
Speaker 2: easily conned.

796
00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime, store Worries, check out

797
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 1: the audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All

798
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:07,080
Speaker 1: That Is Wicked and American Sherlock and Don't Forget. There

799
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,920
Speaker 1: are twelve seasons of my historical true crime podcast, Tenfold

800
00:51:10,960 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 1: More Wicked right here in this podcast feed, scroll back

801
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Speaker 1: and give them a listen if you haven't already. This

802
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer is

803
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 1: Alexis a Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

804
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis heath Is our composer.

805
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

806
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 1: Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram at

807
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Speaker 1: tenfold More Wicked and on Facebook at Wicked Words Pod