1 00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: So how did you get on in Phoenix? 2 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 2: So I had been I was at ASU. I did 3 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 2: my grad program in the middle. 4 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:21,560 Speaker 3: ASU. 5 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:25,000 Speaker 2: I graduated from ASU, and I worked for the Knicks 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 2: for a year. I was in like an internship program, 7 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 2: but it was a full time internship. I was working 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: there sixty seventy hours a week and then at the 9 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: end of the internship, they were like they didn't have 10 00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 2: any positions, so I had to go back to school. 11 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 2: I went to Issue's grad program for sports business. While 12 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: I was there, I got a job with the Suns 13 00:00:42,560 --> 00:00:47,919 Speaker 2: and then it was like a sales job at night, 14 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:49,440 Speaker 2: but it was just to get my foot in the door. 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 2: And then in the summer team. My first second year, 16 00:00:52,440 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: I had like an internship with this basketball tournament that 17 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: was called by Mark West, who was an exec with 18 00:00:56,680 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: the Sons, the former NBA player. Yes, yeah, and so 19 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,399 Speaker 2: then Mark helped me get a foot in the door 20 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 2: to get an internship during the second year of my program, 21 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 2: and that's when everything kind of clicked and I met 22 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 2: all these people and people started valuing men. At the 23 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: end of that I was a video coordinator and then 24 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 2: it just all kind of started going from there. 25 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 4: Although you know, looking back, you said that you know, 26 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 4: you didn't necessarily need to be the one that made 27 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 4: the decisions. Don't you think you were selling yourself a 28 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 4: little bit short, because like we see g I mean, 29 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 4: I'm trying to think of. 30 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 3: Massile as the guy. 31 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 2: Right as soon as I saw Massile, I was like, 32 00:01:32,640 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 2: oh shit, I guess I was wrong, right, But like, 33 00:01:36,560 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 2: I don't you know even now I look back at it. 34 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 3: So here's the thing. So there are a bunch of dudes. 35 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:44,960 Speaker 2: Who have been in the league that I'm like, I 36 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 2: fucking remember when you were around the same place. Will 37 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 2: Will Dawkins, the general manager of the of the Wizards, 38 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,840 Speaker 2: We started at the same time when I was interning 39 00:01:56,880 --> 00:01:59,480 Speaker 2: for the Sun teams with the Spurs, I think, and 40 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 2: then this is what happened. So this is the thing 41 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 2: in the NBA, the number one promotion way happens when 42 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 2: either someone leaves or and you leave with them, or 43 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 2: they left, and now everyone takes a step over, and 44 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,040 Speaker 2: so Will. 45 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 3: Will interned. 46 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 2: And then when Sam Pressey got the Seattle job, Will 47 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 2: went with Sam to Seattle and he got elevated. And 48 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: then when obviously moved to Oklahoma City, and then he 49 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 2: moved up as people left and then eventually Will got 50 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 2: his opportunity, which is right before they went, right after 51 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 2: they right before they won a championship. So I know 52 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: he's kind of like feeling like damn. But my Sam 53 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:44,079 Speaker 2: Pressey was David Griffin. So David Griffin at the end 54 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,639 Speaker 2: of my first full time year in Phoenix, he was 55 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: supposed to get the Memphis job. Jerry West was like, 56 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 2: I'm retiring, and David Griffin was I want to get 57 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 2: the job, and Griff it was his job to take 58 00:02:57,080 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: and he turned it down. But I remember him telling 59 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 2: me like, I think this is going to happen, and 60 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm researching places to live in Memphis, and 61 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 2: I'm like, but that was gonna be my thing, like 62 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: when I move with him, we would move up and 63 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: all that stuff. And he didn't end up leaving until 64 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: he left to quit, which obviously not going to help 65 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 2: me out in that way. But like I said, I 66 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 2: don't think I ever had the temperament to be a leader. 67 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: I'm a really good lieutenant. I've always felt that about myself, 68 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,760 Speaker 2: Like I'm really good at being a coppo. I'm not 69 00:03:35,920 --> 00:03:39,320 Speaker 2: good at being the godfather. Because I think there's a 70 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: certain temperament and countenance. 71 00:03:41,400 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 3: You need to have. 72 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: A patience, a way to know when to go hard 73 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:48,400 Speaker 2: and when to put an arm around me. And I'm 74 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 2: not those meters are not good for me. I'm better 75 00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 2: at like spreading someone else's gospel. 76 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,960 Speaker 4: So you would have been in Phoenix if if I 77 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 4: have the years right, what D'Antoni? 78 00:04:01,840 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: Look, did you did you get a little bit of. 79 00:04:03,400 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: Alvin Gentry D'Antoni, Alvin Gentry Terry Porter. Yeah, so I left. 80 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 2: Alvin was was the head coach there when I left. 81 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 2: Then players was Steve Nash, Grant Hill, Shaquille O'Neill, a Myristodemayer, 82 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 2: Shan Mary and Leander Barbosa bors Dl and then obviously 83 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 2: Steve Kerr in the front office, David Griffin in the 84 00:04:31,120 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: front office. I think I counted. I think this year 85 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 2: this is gonna sound wild when I say this. 86 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 3: This year was. 87 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:46,839 Speaker 2: The first NBA Finals that hasn't featured a a person 88 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 2: that I worked with or a player that I worked. 89 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,599 Speaker 3: With since I left. I left in twenty twelve. 90 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: Every single year in the Finals there has been at least, 91 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 2: if not more, someone I worked with as either as 92 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 2: a player or in the front office all the way. 93 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,240 Speaker 2: So many of my friends have gone on to win championships, 94 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 2: and I was just. 95 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:07,839 Speaker 3: Like, I just just if I could have hold on 96 00:05:07,880 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 3: a little bit longer. 97 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,560 Speaker 1: Well, I mean you still in Phoenix. You saw a 98 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: ton of success. 99 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,360 Speaker 4: I mean those teams are winning fifty five sixty games. Yeah, 100 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 4: you know, Nash winning MVPs. Clearly everybody knows the history 101 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 4: of how they missed out on actually making the finals, 102 00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 4: which you know, onto itself almost deserves its own thirty 103 00:05:29,400 --> 00:05:31,960 Speaker 4: for thirty, but you know, during that time where they're 104 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:35,359 Speaker 4: at the pinnacle and at the top of the success, Like, 105 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:37,119 Speaker 4: what was that like to be a part of something 106 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:37,560 Speaker 4: like that. 107 00:05:38,200 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 2: So I this is my third NBA team working for, 108 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,120 Speaker 2: and the other two were terrible. It was the Hawks 109 00:05:45,160 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 2: in the early two thousands, and it was the Knicks 110 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 2: the Knicks the year before the like the events of 111 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 2: the sexual arrassment lawsuit were from the season that I 112 00:05:57,240 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: worked there. So that was a weird thing to watch 113 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 2: something on the news and be like that happened. That 114 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 2: didn't happen. That happened, that didn't happen like that. But 115 00:06:08,920 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 2: to get to Phoenix, that was my first time working 116 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 2: for No we win more games than we lose, let alone, 117 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 2: we might win a championship. 118 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 3: So that was really eye opening. 119 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 2: But number two, the big thing was like it was 120 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:27,800 Speaker 2: all predicated around like happiness and caring about one another. 121 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 2: And that was that was a Jerry Colangelo thing that 122 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 2: you have to care about the people that work there. 123 00:06:34,000 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 2: And and so David Griffin and Steve Kerr they did 124 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 2: a great job of fostering that and development. Right, they 125 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 2: taught me things and I was like, why are you 126 00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,440 Speaker 2: teaching because one day it's going to be your job. 127 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 2: You gotta this is when we assigned someone to g league. 128 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,520 Speaker 2: You gotta send this facts to the league, and you 129 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:56,200 Speaker 2: gotta do this, and like all these logistical things because 130 00:06:56,200 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 2: they were preparing me for a bigger position I was in. 131 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: They cared about me as a person, in my development 132 00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 2: and so all of those things. That was kind of 133 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:08,560 Speaker 2: like an investment that I got some here and there 134 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:10,880 Speaker 2: sprinkled some people with the nick some people with the Hawks, 135 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 2: but like as something formal to make me better. This 136 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 2: is the mission here is to make you better. I 137 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: hadn't experienced anything like that. And then in terms of 138 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: what it's like, I mean, you were the most popular 139 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 2: one of the most popular teams in the league because 140 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 2: we play a fun style. We got the MVP, we 141 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 2: got a Marstodemer who dunks on everybody who doesn't love that, 142 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 2: and then we got Shaquille O'Neal and then that's like, 143 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 2: oh shit, like this is what this is what the 144 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 2: Beatles is like where it's like you get to the 145 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 2: hotel and. 146 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 3: There's how do these people even know where we're staying. 147 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: It's just a sea of people and like they have 148 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 2: to carve out a path to get into the hotel. 149 00:07:48,320 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: It was cool, and I think for me it was 150 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:54,880 Speaker 2: incredibly beneficial because I was around so many people who 151 00:07:54,920 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 2: were willing to share. 152 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: I learned so much. 153 00:07:58,040 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: Every time I see Shaq or Grant Hill or Steve 154 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 2: alwis something thank you. 155 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 3: You don't even know it, but like me being around. 156 00:08:05,960 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 2: Y'all let me learn so much that it's given me 157 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: the job that I have now. So I got to 158 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,120 Speaker 2: wit I was not and I don't know if you 159 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 2: know this, I wasn't an All Star Hall of Fame 160 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: player in my day, but I got to see how 161 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 2: they do and kind of learn from the way they 162 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 2: approach things. And it's not just those guys. It's the 163 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,480 Speaker 2: portsiouse Rojah Bell. Roger Bell is like my big brother. 164 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 2: He was my VET when I was a rookie with 165 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 2: the Sons. He took me under his wing Leando Barbosa, 166 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,440 Speaker 2: like those guys, kind of the middle of the road 167 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 2: guys and how who all came from different ways. 168 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 3: Someone were drafted. 169 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 2: Roger was an undrafted free agent who bounced around the 170 00:08:43,080 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 2: league and kind of learning their stuff. And then the 171 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 2: ogs like Mark West, like John Shuema got rest of soul, 172 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 2: who was on that Notre Dame team that broke the 173 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:55,040 Speaker 2: eighty eight game UCLA winning streak and was a top 174 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 2: five pick, but then he had blood clots and his 175 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 2: career was ended prematurely. But working with all these guys 176 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 2: that were generous with their time and generous with their stories, 177 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: it made me so much better. And it's like, well, 178 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: that's why I always think about those first four years 179 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,839 Speaker 2: in Phoenixes the best, because we were at the center 180 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 2: of the basketball universe and I was learning not only 181 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 2: from Hall of famers, but from the people the architects 182 00:09:21,600 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 2: of the way the game is played now when everyone's 183 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 2: playing this style, like we were the ones that invented 184 00:09:26,360 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: that pretty much. 185 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 4: And unfortunately the end was unceremonious to say the least. 186 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: I mean, for you're just decleared up for people. 187 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 4: You had alluded to a sexual ractsman lawsuit, not involving yourself. 188 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 3: Just so people understand. 189 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 4: The former owner of the Sons, Robert Sarver, heh yeah, 190 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 4: he a lot of allegations against him, sexual misconduct, misogyny, racism, 191 00:09:54,000 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 4: all the things happened, and he was fine. I think 192 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,839 Speaker 4: it was ten million dollars, was like the biggest fine 193 00:09:58,880 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 4: in NBA history. 194 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: Eventually forced to sellotate. 195 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 4: That's why I met is now the owner and all 196 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:06,720 Speaker 4: of this was happening. 197 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:08,960 Speaker 3: You want to hear what's crazy? 198 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: What the sexual harassment loss that I was talking about 199 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 2: was one with the Knicks. 200 00:10:14,880 --> 00:10:19,199 Speaker 3: But yeah, harassment. So I'm two for two. But if 201 00:10:19,200 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 3: all times not me, but both. 202 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:23,840 Speaker 1: Times, maybe you're the kiss of death. 203 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 2: That's maybe you're the problem, right, Like, well, sexual harassment 204 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 2: lawsuits follow you. 205 00:10:29,000 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 3: Maybe you're the problem. 206 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 2: So you're talking about the Isaiah Thomas Isaiah Thomas one, 207 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: I was. I was there for the events, I guess 208 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:37,719 Speaker 2: technically for the Sarber when I was there for a 209 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 2: lot of the event man, there was like, that's the 210 00:10:39,960 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 2: funny thing. 211 00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: There's stories that like I read the Baxter. 212 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: Holmes piece and the findings by the by the Law 213 00:10:46,720 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 2: the Legal Firm, and I was like, man, some of 214 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:52,679 Speaker 2: these stories, y'all got a watered down version of like 215 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 2: that did not happened. 216 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 3: A lot more, a lot worse, a lot worse. This 217 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 3: is what I'll say about Robert, and it's gonna sound weird. 218 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 2: I think Robert is just someone who's socially inept and 219 00:11:07,920 --> 00:11:12,839 Speaker 2: doesn't have the patience to like want to learn how 220 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 2: to be not socially a net. So a lot of 221 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 2: the stuff, not all of it. Some of this stuff, 222 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 2: obviously is it's all reprehensible. Some of the stuff I think, yeah, 223 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 2: that's that's the kind of person he is. But some 224 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 2: of the stuff I was like, yeah, that happened. It's 225 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 2: not because he's like a raging like misogynists. I think 226 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 2: he's just a dumb ass and a lot of this 227 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:36,600 Speaker 2: stuff and dumb asses behave in a way that they 228 00:11:36,600 --> 00:11:42,160 Speaker 2: think is going to impress people, particularly like oh, these 229 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 2: young black rich athletes that think it's cool that I'm 230 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 2: doing this, and like, now, so I'll give you a 231 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 2: great example the way he talked about Oh man, I 232 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: don't know, the way he would talk about his wife 233 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 2: around the team. 234 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 3: Which was incredibly awkward. 235 00:11:58,160 --> 00:11:59,679 Speaker 2: Let me just make it clear that no one on 236 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 2: the team was like, Yeah, that guy's cool. 237 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 3: Everyone was like what the fuck was that? 238 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,199 Speaker 2: But I really think in his mind that's like, oh, 239 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 2: locker room talk. The guys will really appreciate all talking 240 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 2: about this. You know, you talking about some broad you 241 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 2: bang last night, Well let me tell you about this. 242 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:16,360 Speaker 2: Wait a se you talking about your wife. 243 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 3: It's like yeah. 244 00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:20,480 Speaker 2: But so it was like one of those things like 245 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 2: the guy was trying too hard. Some of the stuff 246 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:25,600 Speaker 2: obviously it wasn't a guy trying too hard. 247 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 3: It's just. 248 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 2: Your your guard variety racism, misogyny. But some of the 249 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: stuff I think that came out that sounded really terrible. 250 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 3: I'm like, it wasn't. It wasn't. 251 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 2: I don't think that was his intention in that moment. 252 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 4: Did you ever were you ever around him and you 253 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 4: feel like I. 254 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 1: Might be a racist? Fuck? Yeah, jesus, it's like was 255 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: it you? 256 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? 257 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 2: No, this wasn't. No, Yeah, like it was, it wasn't. 258 00:12:55,640 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 2: Donald Sterling is what I'll say. 259 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:58,040 Speaker 3: I don't know. 260 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 2: It's not Donald Sterling zero to Donald's starting. No, he 261 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: not Donald Sterling. But also he's not He's not JJ Reddick, right, 262 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:06,600 Speaker 2: he's not like the cool white guy. 263 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 3: Absolutely not. 264 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:14,600 Speaker 4: So it meane you left in twenty twelve, Yeah, and 265 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 4: did you think that that was it for you? Like 266 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 4: in terms of the NBA, Like what like what was 267 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 4: your thought process do the ESPN? 268 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 3: I left. 269 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: I actually left and went like I was like the 270 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 2: hell with this, Like it'd been loggerheads with the new 271 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 2: management for two years. 272 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:35,439 Speaker 3: I'm like, this ain't working. 273 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: And they weren't enamored by me either, because I think 274 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: they felt like I put a lot of salt in 275 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: the things that they wanted to do that were dumb 276 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 2: ideas and retrospect definitely dumb ideas that I saved them from. 277 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 2: But they didn't like having a dissenting voice in the room. 278 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 2: So we split ways and I went to go work 279 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:55,839 Speaker 2: for Warren Legarry. 280 00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 3: At Summer League. 281 00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 2: Warren Legary at the time owned Summer League, but all 282 00:14:00,160 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 2: so he's one of the most powerful agents for front 283 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 2: office types and coaches and stuff like that, and so 284 00:14:07,280 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 2: Warren was going to help me kind of get placed 285 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 2: somewhere else, and so I worked for him at Summer League, 286 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:18,120 Speaker 2: and long story short, it didn't work out, and at 287 00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 2: the end of Summer League I ran into Henry Abbott. 288 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 3: If you remember Henry the. 289 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: True Hoop Yep, we started the True Hoop franchise. 290 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 3: Yeah. 291 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so at this point, Henry's at ESPN, and 292 00:14:28,360 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 2: Henry had been asked me for years. I've known Henry 293 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: for like three years or actually more than that. I didn't 294 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:35,320 Speaker 2: known Henry at that point for like seven years, and 295 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 2: he'd always want me to come do his podcast or 296 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:38,360 Speaker 2: do a show, and I can't. 297 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 3: They don't let us talk. 298 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: Nowadays, it's different, every video coordinator intern talking to every newsbreaker, 299 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: but back then, we didn't talk to media like that. 300 00:14:46,720 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 2: So when he saw me Atummer League, it's like, what 301 00:14:49,640 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 2: are you doing, I'm like, well, I'm kind of in between. 302 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:53,000 Speaker 3: I'm looking for something, and he's like, well, can you 303 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:56,080 Speaker 3: do the show now? And I'm like sure, And I thought. 304 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: Like one of these teams i'm talking to might see 305 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 2: it and be like, oh, he's pretty good, let's bring 306 00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: them in, and we end up having with some of 307 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: the ESPN saw it and asked does he want to 308 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 2: do this. We need someone who can write from a 309 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 2: front office perspective because we got players and we got coaches. 310 00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 3: We don't have to fun office people. 311 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,120 Speaker 2: And Henry asked me, and the only way I can 312 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 2: describe it, Jamal, is like if someone came from NASA 313 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 2: right now said hey, you want to be asked naut 314 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: never thought about it a second, but it sounds cool. 315 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 3: I ain't doing that. I'm not doing anything, so let's 316 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 3: do it. 317 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 2: And so what started as like a trial basis, I 318 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,840 Speaker 2: would write and they would pay me freelance per piece. 319 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 2: Then it turned into we'll pay you up front and 320 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 2: you deliver this many pieces. Then I got my first 321 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: full time deal. And when I got that, they said 322 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: it was a three year deal, and they said at 323 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 2: the end of the third year, you might be doing 324 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 2: some television. And six months later I was doing Sports Center. 325 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 2: And never had any training or anything like that, never 326 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: had any aspiration of doing it, but found out, oh shit, 327 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: I'm actually pretty good at this. 328 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 3: And the rest, as they say, is history. 329 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 4: So you, as you see in sports media, the way 330 00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 4: that the NBA talked about has changedquite and sometimes not 331 00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 4: always in good ways. But what do you make of 332 00:16:05,160 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 4: how sports media, And if you want to just we'll 333 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:10,440 Speaker 4: just say ESPN because I mean, we both know having 334 00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 4: both worked there. The ESPN drives so much of how people. 335 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: Feel about things. 336 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,040 Speaker 4: They drive sports covers, they drive like how other people 337 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 4: cover things. You know, NBA conversations just aren't that fun. 338 00:16:24,600 --> 00:16:25,600 Speaker 1: Anymore, you know. 339 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 4: And so what do you see as what has gone 340 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 4: wrong and how the NBA is currently discussed? 341 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:35,920 Speaker 2: Well, I think, first and foremost, I put a lot 342 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:40,080 Speaker 2: of responsibility with Adam Silver and the Commissioner's office. They're 343 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 2: the ones who sell the rights to different rights holders. 344 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 2: They're the ones who have the power and control to 345 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 2: let the rights holders know how they want their sport cover. 346 00:16:49,760 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 2: I know this because we know the NFL does this. 347 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 2: I know what Roger Goodell does. I know how people 348 00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 2: talk about football, and it's not like how we talk 349 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: about basketball. Number two that and maybe it's because of this, 350 00:17:01,200 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 2: or maybe this is just coincidentally, but obviously doesn't help 351 00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:11,119 Speaker 2: the basketball, I feel like, is the only sport where 352 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: we're arguing about ghosts. I never heard anybody say Patrick 353 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: Mahomes was cool but he ain't. 354 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 3: No Joe Namath. 355 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,159 Speaker 2: I never heard anyone say show hey, Tony's amazing, but 356 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 2: come on now, Derek Jeter has him beat by, Like, 357 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,320 Speaker 2: we don't do these comparisons in the other sports. We 358 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:34,399 Speaker 2: respect the people came in the past. We respect the 359 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 2: people who are playing right now. We don't sit around 360 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:42,479 Speaker 2: wondering whether the nineteen eighty Islanders would hand the Florida 361 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:48,159 Speaker 2: Panthers that nobody cares. In basketball, for some reason, this 362 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 2: dominates our conversation and any achievement is always put in, well, Mike, 363 00:17:52,760 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 2: what did Michael do? 364 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 3: What did Magic do what? 365 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 2: And it's just it cheapens the enjoyment of what we're seeing. 366 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 2: It's a two way street. By the way, it goes 367 00:18:01,720 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: the opposite of people say, oh my god, if you 368 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: put Michael Porter junior in the eighties, he would have 369 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,960 Speaker 2: been won seven MVPs. I'm like, like, they don't do that. 370 00:18:10,760 --> 00:18:14,040 Speaker 2: They don't do the going back to the future either 371 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 2: in the other sports, and we'd go back both ways, 372 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:21,000 Speaker 2: and it's toxic. And to me, podcasts are podcasts. We 373 00:18:21,000 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: don't have control over podcasts, Instagram accounts, YouTube influencers. 374 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 3: As a sport, we don't have control over that. 375 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:33,640 Speaker 2: But when ESPN and then Turner at the time and now. 376 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: I hope we don't have this with NBC and Amazon. 377 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 2: When you're part of this, that's the part where the 378 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,000 Speaker 2: sport can step in and say I'm not you not 379 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: you have to you have to talk about our shit 380 00:18:46,160 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: smart the way they do on NFL Live right or 381 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:51,840 Speaker 2: on Baseball Tonight. You don't talk about our ship with 382 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 2: our lowest common denominator arguments. That's for the Internet. I 383 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 2: don't give them how many clicks they got. I'm like, 384 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: that's not your metric here. Your metric is me me. 385 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 2: I'm the one who sold it to you under the 386 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,720 Speaker 2: guidance that you're going to talk about it in this way. 387 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,400 Speaker 2: And I think the NBA is a little too enamored 388 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 2: with being popular online because that is one day TV 389 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 2: will be done and everything will be online. And that's 390 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:19,200 Speaker 2: their take is like we'll be the first ones there. 391 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: But to me, it comes at a detriment when you 392 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,360 Speaker 2: allow the deterioration of the product. 393 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 4: The thing is, I don't even think Roger Goodell had 394 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 4: to tell players that is that there is just this 395 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:33,000 Speaker 4: understood you know what they say? What what's you know? 396 00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 4: What's understood need not be said? And I don't even 397 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 4: know that Roger Goodell or any NFL office actually had 398 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 4: to say to Michael Strahan or Terry Bradshaw or any 399 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:46,920 Speaker 4: of the guys that you see on the pregame shows, 400 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 4: like hey, let's let's celebrate this sport as opposed to 401 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 4: talking about everything that's. 402 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: Wrong with it. 403 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 4: And I know a lot of people have really come 404 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 4: from come from inside the NBA, come for them rather 405 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 4: and saying that like a these guys getting up there 406 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 4: sometimes and be like this player is awful. 407 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 2: They're like, I'll be clear, I don't have a problem 408 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:12,199 Speaker 2: with them saying someone's terrible. I have a problem. I 409 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 2: have a problem when it's oh, man, like the game 410 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:17,679 Speaker 2: is terrible. 411 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 3: Now. I don't like that. 412 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: I don't like when and I told Charles this, I 413 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,520 Speaker 2: don't like when he says and he's like, what do 414 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:25,160 Speaker 2: you want me to say? 415 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:26,680 Speaker 3: I'm like, I don't want you to say that. 416 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 2: You can criticize individuals when you criticize the game as 417 00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 2: a whole. 418 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 3: Because the reality there's two things. 419 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 2: Number one is the shit that y'all remember ain't as 420 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 2: awesome as you think it was. 421 00:20:40,560 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 3: Go back NBA TV during the summer they play the 422 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 3: classic games. 423 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 2: Go back and watch them. Anyone could do the Instagram 424 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:47,439 Speaker 2: highlight reel. You see all the Michael Jordan's you can 425 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 2: watch to come fly with Me tape. It looks amazing. Now, 426 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:53,479 Speaker 2: trust me, that shit lives up. It holds up. But 427 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 2: what doesn't hold up is like watching Knicks Pacers from 428 00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 2: ninety four, the Regi Miller twenty five point game in 429 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:02,200 Speaker 2: the four quarter. I WoT me and Zach Harper were 430 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 2: doing radio Live Radio one summer and that game was 431 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 2: on him. We're like, let's just fuck, let's just watch this, 432 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 2: and it was like it was comical. Reggi Mian at 433 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 2: one point had like sixteen points in the fourth quarter. 434 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: The Knicks the best defense, the baddest defense ever. They're 435 00:21:15,840 --> 00:21:18,399 Speaker 2: coming in transition. Antonio Davis is bringing the ball up 436 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:20,879 Speaker 2: and AD's my guy, I love you a d but 437 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 2: they jumped on him like, oh we got a sop ball. 438 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: They left Reggie millerwido, he's got sixteen in the quarter. 439 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 2: He's got sixteen in the quarter. 440 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 3: What are we doing? This is the best defense ever. 441 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 2: Old they used to play defense back and then they're 442 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 2: leaving a dude who has sixteen in the quarter in 443 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 2: the fourth wide open and this is not like I say, 444 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 2: it was routine play after play out, like what are 445 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 2: you doing? 446 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 3: Why are you making that decision? It was just uncanny 447 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 3: how poor the decision making was. 448 00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 2: Or or I'll take a stept brother going to like 449 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:55,399 Speaker 2: two thousand and I think it was like Piston's Magic 450 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 2: two thousand and three, two thousand and four, the. 451 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: Tracy McGrady when they were up three to one. 452 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: Yeahyeah, yeah, yeah, they took they took my boys words 453 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 2: out of context, but the team back. 454 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:05,160 Speaker 3: I got your back, Like I think. 455 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: That was the first NBA series I covered, was that one? 456 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, oh wow? Or were you in Orlando? You 457 00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 3: in Orlando? Right? Uh no, not yet. 458 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,280 Speaker 4: I was working for the Detroit Free Press got it, 459 00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 4: And so I was the I was the backup during 460 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 4: the playoffs for the business main beat writer, So my 461 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,480 Speaker 4: responsibility was covering the Piston's opponent. So I spent most 462 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 4: of my time covering the Magic end of that series, right, 463 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 4: So I was there when he said it. 464 00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,920 Speaker 2: So so, but it was like there's a game was 465 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 2: like seventy nine to seventy four, like, and I'm watching 466 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:39,840 Speaker 2: this game and I'm like, god, damn man, like this 467 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 2: is not good product. 468 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 3: Like nobody, nobody wants to see. 469 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 2: Like I'm watching Tracy McGrady, I want to see Tracy 470 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 2: mcgady do Tracy McGrady shit. I don't want to watch 471 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: him get wrapped up by you know whoever, not Tejon Prince, 472 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 2: but like someone like some one of those guys. I 473 00:22:57,119 --> 00:22:59,000 Speaker 2: don't want to see that much. In the same way 474 00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 2: I don't want I want to see Eldon Campbell take 475 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 2: eighteen foot jumpers like I just. 476 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,360 Speaker 1: Or I guess that would be the thing, but. 477 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,679 Speaker 2: Well, but we asked him to take three to get 478 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 2: out of the way so that like the guys actually 479 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 2: do stuff can go to work. I don't want to 480 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 2: see Tyrone Hill hit a fifteen foot jumper, right, I 481 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:19,080 Speaker 2: want him out of the way so I. 482 00:23:19,000 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 3: Could see Alan Iverson do Allen Iverson stuff. 483 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 2: And so that's part of it, like your memory of 484 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 2: what the game was is not as nearly as entertaining 485 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 2: as you remember it to be. And then the other 486 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,920 Speaker 2: part of it is guys are playing under the rules 487 00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 2: of the game today, So oh, man, like you just 488 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 2: let that guy go by, yeah, because I can't grab. 489 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 3: Him like you can. I can't. I'm not allowed to. 490 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 2: We're gonna sen him to the free throw line, so 491 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: I gotta I gotta guard him like this basically my 492 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:47,679 Speaker 2: hands back or whatever. 493 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 3: So it makes look the game is different. 494 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 2: You just have to accept this different and they're doing 495 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 2: the best they can under the current circumstances. And when 496 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: you don't acknowledge that, I think you're doing a disservice 497 00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: to your viewing public. 498 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 4: So you know, with that being said, Like another topic 499 00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 4: is how this idea of rings being the sole focused 500 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 4: of how people judge greatness. I'm not really sure where 501 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 4: that came from, but I think that's probably another annoying 502 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 4: layer to how the game is talked about. It's like, 503 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 4: unless you want a reinnuation, it's kind of like what like, 504 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 4: there's a lot I don't think people appreciate how very 505 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,160 Speaker 4: hard it is to win a NBA title, Like ninety 506 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 4: nine percent of the players are not in a position 507 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 4: to win one. 508 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it's just kind of what it is. 509 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 2: And so Jamel, like you and I were growing up 510 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,840 Speaker 2: in an arrow where and they said who's the best 511 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:46,199 Speaker 2: power for it in the game, And it was one 512 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 2: of two names over the two names, do you remember. 513 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 4: Oh, it was Karl Malone Dam alone or Barkley. 514 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 2: Anyone else's secondary Malana Barkley. That was the conversation all 515 00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 2: the way up until like your two thousand, who's the 516 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 2: best power in the game, Malona Bart till Tim Duncan, 517 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: till Tim Duncan, and then all of a sudden, it's like, 518 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:08,880 Speaker 2: but even then it was Tim Duncan. It was them 519 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: even recognizing in the moment, this fucker's good, right, it 520 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: was his play. It was everything about him on both 521 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 2: ends of the floor that made people bend the knee. 522 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: Obviously he wins a title ninety nine and then you 523 00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 2: went a second and then all of a sudden, you 524 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 2: got five. It makes it easy to go, yeah, he's 525 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 2: the best powerful because he has five rings. Like no, 526 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: they figured that shit out before he really got into 527 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: winning rings. But the reality was before him, it was 528 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 2: two guys that never won a championship who were This 529 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 2: was the apex of the sport. And you know, it's 530 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 2: it's crazy now that we are in a place where look, 531 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 2: I know, I get it. 532 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 3: We're all trying to win. That's the that's the goal. 533 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 2: The goal is to win, but to behave as though 534 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 2: that is the sole difference between success and failure in 535 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 2: this case, it's kind of ridiculous. And again it's it's 536 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 2: all depending on like who's crafting the messaging, right, And 537 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:14,160 Speaker 2: this original messaging started really around Michael Jordan. So Michael 538 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 2: Jordan's better than magic a bird. Why because he's got 539 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 2: six magics, got five birds. 540 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 3: Got three. 541 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: And then from there, if you grow up in the 542 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 2: church of Michael Jordan, you worship at that altar. 543 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 3: Now that's the lens that you see it in. 544 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 2: It's like, I've got to be the best scorer and 545 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: I've got to win more championships than anyone else. 546 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 3: And from this church comes Kobe Bryant. 547 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 2: And so now Kobe Bryant is carrying this, but it's 548 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 2: it's an exaggerated version of what Jordan's thing was because 549 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 2: like Jordan, Yes, he took all these shots. Whatever Jordan 550 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,399 Speaker 2: shot like an insane percentage in mid range, like you 551 00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:54,920 Speaker 2: shot like like the tracking numbers from like the ninety 552 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 2: seven season, ninety in the fifty percent. 553 00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:58,720 Speaker 3: Range from the mid range. 554 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 2: But he took a lot of them, but he made 555 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:05,120 Speaker 2: him Kobe took a lot of them, made a lot 556 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:09,199 Speaker 2: percentage wise not so great. But it's still like but 557 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 2: this is the apex, I take the last shot, and 558 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,359 Speaker 2: I'm the man, and da da da, and also I 559 00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,880 Speaker 2: got five rings. And so now you have this whole 560 00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: generation of people coming up believing that's the religion, right, 561 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: And so then we get to this stage right now 562 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: where it's like, yeah, rings are everything, because if it's 563 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:29,600 Speaker 2: not for the rings, and how else are we supposed 564 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 2: to measure? 565 00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 3: But we know it's it's ridiculous. 566 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 2: Like the people that ask would you rather ask Robert Rorriy, 567 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 2: would you rather have your career Charles Brockley's career, And 568 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 2: he said, hell, he had to want Charles Brocky's career. 569 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 2: It was beyond money. It's like it's knowing how good 570 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,160 Speaker 2: he was. It's knowing like seven rings is amazing. Sure, 571 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 2: but let me tell you something, seven rings ain't in 572 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:51,400 Speaker 2: school as knowing I own this shit. 573 00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 4: And knowing too, you were the best player in the league. 574 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 4: When Michael Jortan played Michael Jordan, he'll talk about Karl 575 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 4: Malone with an at IMVP. 576 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: He never talked about Barkley winning the MVP that he 577 00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: won because Barkley was by far. I mean, I can't 578 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: say by far because it's still Michael Jordan. But he 579 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:08,840 Speaker 1: he was the best player. 580 00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:11,479 Speaker 2: He was the best player that year, the best player, 581 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: and and and it's not just the best player in 582 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: terms of I was recognized as such. It's the knowledge 583 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 2: on a nightly basis, I control this ship. This whole 584 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 2: thing happens at my whim. Like that's a power level 585 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,280 Speaker 2: on a basketball court. When you know I'm playing with 586 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 2: and against nine of the other greatest players on the 587 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:36,639 Speaker 2: planet and clearly I'm the best one. 588 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:40,840 Speaker 3: That's a feeling that you can't replace with one hundred drinks. 589 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 4: One more basketball question, I mean before I get to 590 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 4: the final question, which is I'm just setting up an 591 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 4: alub for you in this final in the final question. 592 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:51,920 Speaker 4: But one more basketball question first, and that is, how 593 00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,520 Speaker 4: do you think things in between Lebron and the Lakers? 594 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,040 Speaker 1: You think they in You think they end with him retiring? 595 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 3: No, I think the end amicable. 596 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: The contract expires, he leaves, he goes somewhere else, you. 597 00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: Get one more move in him. 598 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think. I don't think he gets traded. I 599 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 2: don't think he gets bought out. I think he will 600 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 2: play out the year and then regardless of what happens, 601 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:17,920 Speaker 2: he'll leave, He'll go somewhere else and then. 602 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 3: That's wherever that is, that'll be the last chapter. 603 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm just a moron, but I don't think that he. 604 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 4: Will and I think he'll stay because I do think 605 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 4: it's a different scenario when you leave the Lakers. Now, 606 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 4: of course, we know crazy things happen, crazy things happen 607 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 4: in the NBA. 608 00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 1: Like next thing you know him is Steph for like 609 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:40,480 Speaker 1: we're gonna give it a run. 610 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,800 Speaker 4: I'm like, all right, I understand why you would why 611 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 4: you would leave for that, right or some situation where 612 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 4: it's like, okay, this is really set up for him 613 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 4: to win. But also you know, I also think about 614 00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 4: his age and like how much he loves being in 615 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 4: LA And I'm like, I don't, do you have one 616 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 4: of one more of those in you, like one of 617 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 4: one of those like college tries. 618 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: We're gonna make this work. 619 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 2: I'll give you three three places number one not in 620 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 2: any order, but first place I'll talk about is Golden 621 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 2: State because of playing with Steph, and I think that 622 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:18,239 Speaker 2: Olympic Yeah, but I think that Olympic experience really, like 623 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 2: when you think about if you if you're a you're 624 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 2: a basketball genius and to play with another genius whose 625 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,240 Speaker 2: game compliments you, because lucas a genius, but it was like, 626 00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: not not a great fit. That's the perfect fit to 627 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:36,479 Speaker 2: have basketball to be that easy for the like probably 628 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 2: for the first time on the Bronze life. 629 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 3: It's never been that easy, Like, oh my god. 630 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,440 Speaker 2: I think there's a part of that that would tantalize 631 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 2: him to play with that guy in that system. Second place, 632 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 2: I would say, or second location I would say, is 633 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:57,520 Speaker 2: Cleveland use symmetry just because of the symmetry that's I 634 00:30:57,560 --> 00:30:59,480 Speaker 2: mean you're saying when you're saying where he would pick 635 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 2: up right, Like I don't. 636 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 3: I don't see him going to Utah or whatever. 637 00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: I think, hey, we got a shot, we're right. 638 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 3: Or even like Dallas, I don't. 639 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 2: I think Dallas is just too much right to process, 640 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 2: whereas Cleveland it's like it's home and all that stuff, 641 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 2: and you got the symmetry there and then number three 642 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,760 Speaker 2: and everyone will call me crazy, but we do live 643 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 2: in a rings culture society. And I have said time 644 00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,360 Speaker 2: and time again, if you win one in New York, 645 00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 2: it's worth a thousand. So with thousand, Jamel, listen to me, 646 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:34,360 Speaker 2: He'll never He'll never win six and even if he 647 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 2: wins six, he'll never be six for six. But you 648 00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 2: win one in New York worth a thousand because not 649 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 2: only does everyone recognize the degree difficulty of doing it 650 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 2: in that in that city and that building with that ownership, right, 651 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,520 Speaker 2: but more than that, where are most of the media 652 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,280 Speaker 2: centered out of They will write the salt, They will 653 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 2: write the ballads for you. You don't even have to 654 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 2: do nothing. You don't even have to spin it. They'll 655 00:32:00,520 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 2: do the spin for you. Because at the end of 656 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 2: the day, and we saw man Dayalen Brunson goes to 657 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: the conference finals and they're already doing like, is he 658 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: the most popular nick of all time? 659 00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:12,960 Speaker 3: He went to one conference final? You think Lebron wins. 660 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:14,240 Speaker 2: A title, they're not going to tell us that he's 661 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 2: the greatest player in any sport ever, ever, forever, like 662 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 2: in the future, in the past or whatever. I'm not look. 663 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,240 Speaker 2: Degree of difficulty is high. But you get it done. There, 664 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: this Jordan Lebron conversation done. 665 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:33,720 Speaker 4: Yeah, the hater in me is just going to actively 666 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:34,479 Speaker 4: root against them. 667 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:37,240 Speaker 2: Of course, No, we don't want we want to see 668 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 2: the Knicks fail. I want to see the Knicks fail. 669 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 2: Of course, I want to see the worst version of that. 670 00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 2: But I accept if he That's why I accept if 671 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:46,800 Speaker 2: he gets it done. 672 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:48,760 Speaker 3: Shit, man, like you really are good. 673 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,920 Speaker 4: I mean, after that, there is no argument really to 674 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 4: probably be made against that. 675 00:32:54,280 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: All right, all right. 676 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,480 Speaker 4: I hope you enjoyed the second part of this interview 677 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 4: with Amin al Hassan if you missed the first part, 678 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 4: that is also available on iHeart Apple Podcasts or wherever 679 00:33:09,680 --> 00:33:12,320 Speaker 4: you get your podcasts. Thank you for listening to this 680 00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 4: bonus episode of Spolitics, and make sure you check for 681 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 4: Spoloitics every Thursday when a new episode drops.