Speaker 1: You know, you have to be careful about making a
Speaker 1: weird show or watching a weird show. It may come
Speaker 1: back to haunt you. Enjoy ephemeralist production of My Heart
Speaker 1: three D audio for full exposure. Listen with that phones.
Speaker 1: When I say filmmaker, who do you think of? Maybe
Speaker 1: someone who directs features or TV shows or documentaries. Perhaps
Speaker 1: they're employed by a studio or work independently. Of course,
Speaker 1: there's all kinds of other filmmakers, students, amateurs, people who
Speaker 1: make art films and short films and cut some video installations.
Speaker 1: And then there's folks like her Harvey. The lens of
Speaker 1: a motion picture projector is an eye that can help
Speaker 1: you stimulate, motivate, educate your students. I think the most
Speaker 1: partner thing when I was looking at Harvey was that
Speaker 1: he was a maker of industrial films, films that were
Speaker 1: largely made for distribution in high schools. In particular. I'm
Speaker 1: Bernie Murphy. I'm an associate professor in the School of
Speaker 1: English at Trinity College, Dublin. Films made for the classroom
Speaker 1: have several purposes. It helps when you're choosing a film
Speaker 1: to know that there is a connection between the purpose
Speaker 1: of that film and the techniques used to achieve that purpose.
Speaker 1: It's only when you dig into the whole concept of
Speaker 1: educational film and an educational film company then you realize
Speaker 1: that there's tu tours, there's real legitimate filmmakers who really
Speaker 1: did good ones from Skip Alzheimer and I'm the founder
Speaker 1: of the eighty Geeks Educational Film Archive in Raleigh, North Carolina.
Speaker 1: In an over three decade career, her Carvey directed likely
Speaker 1: hundreds of educational films, but best remembered it's his lone
Speaker 1: feature two. Carnival of Souls in a nut Challenge falls
Speaker 1: under that category of supernatural horror films. Carnival of Souls
Speaker 1: is about a young woman called Mary who is in
Speaker 1: uh drag race. At the very start of the film,
Speaker 1: she's writing in a car with some friends and these
Speaker 1: two guys pull up and the challenge on the show
Speaker 1: a drag race? Do you want to drive? But during
Speaker 1: the race, the women's car falls off the bridge and
Speaker 1: it seems like everyone said, but then Mary clambers up
Speaker 1: on the river bank and she's actually alive. Are you
Speaker 1: all right? How do you get out? But this one
Speaker 1: we better get you back to town. As the phone
Speaker 1: goes on, Mary starts a new job in a new city.
Speaker 1: She moves to Salt Lake City and becomes a church organist.
Speaker 1: It seems things are going okay for a while, but
Speaker 1: then gradually more and more spooky things start to happen.
Speaker 1: She's kind of being haunted by this ghostly creature that
Speaker 1: she sees, the Ghoule, as portrayed by director her Carvey,
Speaker 1: a mute in white face paint. She turns, she sees somebody,
Speaker 1: and then she turns around. It's not there anymore. She
Speaker 1: rents this room whom at this boarding house and meets
Speaker 1: another person who lives at the house. He's trying to
Speaker 1: make time with her, and she's not interested. I thought
Speaker 1: doing this at Elvis. Yeah yeah, when you ask me,
Speaker 1: I'm John Linden, I mean Neil right across the hall.
Speaker 1: Nice to meet, would you excuse me? Yeah, yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: just wondering. Stand right there the creepy neighborhood. Oh, good morning,
Speaker 1: I heard your love. I know you'd be up who
Speaker 1: was clearly a sex predator next door. I really appreciate
Speaker 1: you're taking me out to see me. I've had a
Speaker 1: miserable night. If you had all forget it, come on here,
Speaker 1: join a party drink up. At one point, she's driving
Speaker 1: past this pavilion that used to be at this lake,
Speaker 1: and she's told that they shouldn't go in there because
Speaker 1: it would be illegal. This used to be quiet of place.
Speaker 1: It's been deserted for a long time. Now will you
Speaker 1: take me in? My goodness, no, it isn't safe out
Speaker 1: there anymore. She's beginning to get kind of creeped out,
Speaker 1: and is also being very unsocial. Don't you want to
Speaker 1: join in the things that other people do, share the
Speaker 1: experiences of other people. I don't think capable of being
Speaker 1: very close to people. She's disconnected from her family, her community,
Speaker 1: her job. We'll have to have some sort of reception.
Speaker 1: Couldn't we just get that. I don't suppose it's an
Speaker 1: absolute necessity. I don't know what some of the ladies
Speaker 1: will say. If they say, I'm a fine organist. That
Speaker 1: should be enough, shouldn't it. Well, yeah, of course, we'll
Speaker 1: let it go at that for the time being. But
Speaker 1: my dear, you cannot live in isolation from the human race.
Speaker 1: You know. She goes and is playing for the minister,
Speaker 1: but then it kind of becomes creepy. Yeah, circrileg what
Speaker 1: are you playing in this church. Have you no respect?
Speaker 1: Do you feel no reverence? She feels like she's kind
Speaker 1: of losing her mind a little bit, but she's also
Speaker 1: not engaging with people and just feels like out of
Speaker 1: touch with everything. The department store, when she's going to
Speaker 1: buy address, suddenly she's muted and no one can hear
Speaker 1: or see her eye. But there's this very subtle kind
Speaker 1: of rippling effect, so you get the sense that something
Speaker 1: has changed, but you don't quite know why. She talks
Speaker 1: to the doctor, who tries to help her but kind
Speaker 1: of dismisses her concerns. Look, look, you've had a fright.
Speaker 1: Hysteria won't solve anything. Not control yourself. By the end
Speaker 1: of the film, Mary has been kind of pursued by
Speaker 1: a spectral figure and actually spectral figures. She keeps obsessing
Speaker 1: about the pavilion to go back there. He's trying to
Speaker 1: take me back somewhere, and she actually ends up there.
Speaker 1: Everybody there's ghouls, and there's this kind of dance that
Speaker 1: takes place at the pavilion. The following day, they go
Speaker 1: to the pavilion to look for Mary, and they find
Speaker 1: footprints and stand that just end. The cars get over
Speaker 1: there and no no foot them for leading up there
Speaker 1: here and then nothing do you have a return At
Speaker 1: the end of the film to the scene of the
Speaker 1: crash back in Kansas, the police pull the car that
Speaker 1: she was in from the river, and the spoiler alarge
Speaker 1: her body is in the front seat with the two women.
Speaker 1: It becomes clear that actually she has been dead all along.
Speaker 1: The film itself has been about someone who believes they're
Speaker 1: still alive but actually isn't. Well. It's about arguably about
Speaker 1: many different things, but the story beats alone don't really
Speaker 1: give a sense of what it's like to watch Carnival
Speaker 1: of Souls. If you explain the plot, it doesn't do
Speaker 1: justice to the atmosphere that the film has. It has
Speaker 1: a real feel of kind of a Twilight Zone episode,
Speaker 1: what's the matter with everyonehy don't they answer me? But
Speaker 1: it is much more impressionistic, So it's like someone saw
Speaker 1: a bunch of Italian or French cinema and then made
Speaker 1: this future length chiller that has the supernatural element trying
Speaker 1: to prevent me from living, trying to take me back somewhere.
Speaker 1: It's one of those films that if you've seen it
Speaker 1: and you sat through it, I think it stays with you.
Speaker 1: It's so intensely focused on Mary and her experience. I
Speaker 1: like being with you, really I do. I don't want
Speaker 1: to be alone tonight. I want to be near you
Speaker 1: that I think we end up, even if we don't
Speaker 1: necessarily initially intend to, becoming caught up in her plight
Speaker 1: and the sense that something is terribly wrong. Will you helping?
Speaker 1: I need to help, but we don't quite know what.
Speaker 1: There's that sense that things are somewhat askew in reality.
Speaker 1: I don't belong in the world. What it is, something
Speaker 1: separates me from other people. At first, it might perhaps
Speaker 1: seem a little bit hokey, fill it out, independence on maaker,
Speaker 1: little budget, not really a lot of professional actors. I
Speaker 1: didn't known any harm. I just stopped to get a drink.
Speaker 1: But the acting as a very raw kind of quality
Speaker 1: to it at times. I don't know what Some of
Speaker 1: the set pieces in the film we are absolutely superb.
Speaker 1: The extended highway driving scene at night, which is brilliantly staged.
Speaker 1: It is so unique in terms of its cinematography, and
Speaker 1: there's a visual and kind of editorial sophistication there that
Speaker 1: maybe you might necessarily be expecting from a film with
Speaker 1: that budget level. There's also one off culter quality about
Speaker 1: the film that maybe is in part because of its
Speaker 1: low budget nature, as is often the way in low
Speaker 1: budget horror filmmaking, when it's done well, actually adds to
Speaker 1: the unease that it generates. When is the next post leave?
Speaker 1: I must get on. It's not slick. It's not the
Speaker 1: usual kind of narrative grammar that maybe a more conventional
Speaker 1: film would have, but there's a sense that anything can happen.
Speaker 1: Came you doctor, my last hope. It has more in
Speaker 1: common in some ways with an art house film, and
Speaker 1: the ways in which often they will up end are
Speaker 1: sort of visual or narrative expectations. It's not your typical
Speaker 1: I don't want to slag off the horror genre, but
Speaker 1: I think it's unique and it remains unique. It has,
Speaker 1: I think, a genuine eeriness that really holds up even today.
Speaker 1: I think it has a real claim to be one
Speaker 1: of the most important American horror films actually of the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. I think it's been tremendously influential, but in
Speaker 1: ways that aren't always fully appreciated. But there's no getting
Speaker 1: away from the fact that it is a film about
Speaker 1: the human cost of the interest driving. It's one of
Speaker 1: those films that dramatizes the impact of road fatalities and
Speaker 1: the idea that travel by car and the highways actually
Speaker 1: have a very negative downside. Higas river is right now
Speaker 1: and with all the mud and sand it's carrying and
Speaker 1: may never find that car. I've first studied the film
Speaker 1: about six or seven years ago. I was working on
Speaker 1: a book called The Highway Horror Film, which is about
Speaker 1: the cultural ramifications of the interested highway system, the effect
Speaker 1: that the creation of this vast network of highways had
Speaker 1: upon the horror film. In particular, by ninety one, something
Speaker 1: like one million Americans had already died in car accidents.
Speaker 1: Today's heavy traffic and high speed cars make the odds
Speaker 1: heavy against the non drinking driver. You had an immense
Speaker 1: road building operation that was underway. Our highways are engineered
Speaker 1: for safety and convenience. It's sort of the dawn of
Speaker 1: American teenagers. Hey, how would you and very like to
Speaker 1: go out to the like tomorrow? What time? Early wealthier
Speaker 1: ones in the nineteen thirties and forties would have had cars,
Speaker 1: But you had kind of a more widespread introduction of
Speaker 1: mass automobility generally, but particularly amongst the younger age group.
Speaker 1: It became apparent with the statistics that they were disproportionately
Speaker 1: affecting young people in particular. A seventeen year old boy
Speaker 1: driving a red convertible comes over a hillcrest and rams
Speaker 1: into a red hardtop that came out of a side rope.
Speaker 1: Here is the young man critically injured, and this is
Speaker 1: his car. So you had in the nineteen fifties a
Speaker 1: raft of films that were essentially targeted towards a teenage audience,
Speaker 1: and there were cautionary films Signal thirty the code that
Speaker 1: has a morbid meeting of the men of the Ohio
Speaker 1: State Highway of Control. A good driver stacy film, a
Speaker 1: good drug film, a good alcohol film, a good VD
Speaker 1: film is scaring you. The lad may have been fast
Speaker 1: on the gridiron, but speed on the highway is at
Speaker 1: best a losing and deadly gay. There's a setup of
Speaker 1: the person who you were made to identify with. A
Speaker 1: young man speeds home after enjoying a rollicking state party.
Speaker 1: He goes through something tragic, and then this is why
Speaker 1: it was tragic, because of drugs, because of drinking, because
Speaker 1: they didn't drive safely. One, the damage to the car
Speaker 1: was slight a repair bill of would have covered it easily. Second,
Speaker 1: the man and his wife were planning a party for
Speaker 1: the next day, a party observing his young son's birthday.
Speaker 1: And then there's a reconciliation. If we educate ourselves to
Speaker 1: our dangers and our responsibilities, we can expect accident free highways,
Speaker 1: We can obey the law. We can use courtesy and consideration.
Speaker 1: Let's all of us regard the automobile as a useful
Speaker 1: servant and priceless necessity, not as a weapon to name
Speaker 1: and kill. I think you can see why the genre
Speaker 1: would have internalized, particularly since essentially several generations of American
Speaker 1: teenagers were forced to watch this kind of material real.
Speaker 1: Had the speeding truck driver observed the forty five mile
Speaker 1: per hour speed limit, there would have been a plus
Speaker 1: safety factor. I came to Carnival of Souls because it
Speaker 1: quickly became clear to me that it was really a
Speaker 1: foundational text in the highway horror film. I know, I'll
Speaker 1: tear your story about it. It wasn't our faults. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we were the first ones on the bridge and coming
Speaker 1: along following the tracks and they wanted to get around us,
Speaker 1: I guess, and if they lost control when they dropped
Speaker 1: carry it in crowd of them all. Her carve was
Speaker 1: obviously someone who in a previous filmmaking capacity, had made
Speaker 1: films about the dangers of reckless driving and young people
Speaker 1: misbehaving in cars nobody can afford to drive with alcohol
Speaker 1: present in the body. It makes complete sense to me
Speaker 1: that it would have filtered into popular culture in later years.
Speaker 1: Carnival of Souls literally begins with young people in a
Speaker 1: dry race that they shouldn't be in, and then a
Speaker 1: terrible accident unfolds. And that's a really really typical feature
Speaker 1: of the highway safety films of the nineteen sixties in particular.
Speaker 1: I don't know that it's explicitly saying, you know, kids
Speaker 1: drive carefully, which obviously the highway safety phones were very
Speaker 1: explicitly saying that all of these resulted from violations of
Speaker 1: simple traffic regulations. It's up to you and your own driving. Heavens,
Speaker 1: But there is a kind of a verity style to
Speaker 1: Carnival of Souls. That girl. It has an unusual sense
Speaker 1: of maybe realism for a low budget horror film of
Speaker 1: that era. David four yesterday she was the only one
Speaker 1: of three girls to survive an accident. It makes you
Speaker 1: feel a little of something like how granted? I think
Speaker 1: you could argue that some of that sense of maybe
Speaker 1: reality and one deity has come perhaps from the industrial films.
Speaker 1: What can we do and what can you do to
Speaker 1: prevent you've nod of lenquency? You tell us The demand
Speaker 1: for classroom films inspired childhood friends Arthur Wolfe and Russell
Speaker 1: Monster to found the Centron Corporation. What's interesting about them
Speaker 1: is that they were based in Lawrence, Kansas. Centron Films
Speaker 1: a firm in Lawrence, Kansas. Have you ever been there? No?
Speaker 1: And Emily always visited the family here. That's where University
Speaker 1: of Kansas is. They were pulling a lot of their
Speaker 1: talent from University of Kansas. That's where her card became from.
Speaker 1: I got started making films. Uh I was here at
Speaker 1: the university in the theatrical department, in the theater department
Speaker 1: up here as an instructor at that time, and uh
Speaker 1: I would come down to Centro on once in a
Speaker 1: while as an actor. And finally they asked me if
Speaker 1: I would like to direct for them, and I said sure.
Speaker 1: It would be kind of fun to try. So I
Speaker 1: came down full time as a director at that time,
Speaker 1: and that was twelve thirteen years before we did Carnival.
Speaker 1: After two in the Navy during World War Two and
Speaker 1: a decision not to pursue a career in chemical engineering,
Speaker 1: Herk Harvey enrolled in the University of Kansas to study
Speaker 1: theater while acting and directing school productions. Perk earned bachelor's
Speaker 1: and master's degrees from KU, and with a doctorate from
Speaker 1: the University of Colorado, came back to Kansas to teach
Speaker 1: acting and filmmaking. In nineteen fifty two. While continuing to teach,
Speaker 1: Harvey started working for the centro On Corporation, directing company
Speaker 1: productions for over three decades. What started out as a
Speaker 1: director and remained a director for thirty or five years
Speaker 1: at centro On. The interesting thing about it was that
Speaker 1: with each project, of course, the nature of the job change,
Speaker 1: because we were making educational industrials that included a variety
Speaker 1: of subjects, and also in some of the industrials we
Speaker 1: got into musicals and extensive travel and this sort of thing.
Speaker 1: So the job itself was very interesting and that it
Speaker 1: was always different, but across the Board of Industrial and
Speaker 1: Educational Films. Casting crew info can be difficult, sometimes impossible
Speaker 1: to track down because credits were rarely ever included, So
Speaker 1: you don't know who directed it, you don't know who
Speaker 1: live it, you don't know who photographed it, you don't
Speaker 1: know any of the actor's names. Accounts vary as to
Speaker 1: how many and which films Herk made for Centron, but
Speaker 1: it's well documented that he worked there from two until
Speaker 1: Here are some of the classics that we believe to
Speaker 1: bear his stamp. But couldn't you manage to arrange your
Speaker 1: time so you could have a little fun too. I
Speaker 1: have a certain amount of homework to do, and I
Speaker 1: like to get done on time, but you have a
Speaker 1: whole weekend cheating a snob? Those are ones that are
Speaker 1: open ended, with a student talking in the beginning and
Speaker 1: then telling the story about what's going to happen. Did
Speaker 1: you hear about John Taylor? They voted him out a
Speaker 1: student council representative because he was called cheating who John Taylor?
Speaker 1: Voted down John Taylor? And then you have to decide
Speaker 1: at the end, like what you're gonna do? Is the
Speaker 1: group justified in judging everything Sarah does as snobbery. What
Speaker 1: do you think? Why study Industrial Arts is part of
Speaker 1: a series. There's why study Latin? Why study science? Why
Speaker 1: study home economics? Here's an elective that you have in
Speaker 1: high school that you could take, and this is why
Speaker 1: you should take it. And Joe will need score as
Speaker 1: a man who can translate and build those ideas on
Speaker 1: paper into the actual homes, churches, schools, and factors of
Speaker 1: the future. Some of you may be spakesmen who must
Speaker 1: understand the impact and implications of science on society manners
Speaker 1: in school. This boy is acting up in class and
Speaker 1: is not allowed to take recess and see has to
Speaker 1: clean the chalkboards. Larry, I just wanted to remind you
Speaker 1: it's your boards, Thomas Rand. We're gonna play ball at
Speaker 1: recess honors. You better get somebody else, some girl and Chalky. Fine, Larry,
Speaker 1: my name is Chocky. I think he's a devil who's
Speaker 1: actually chopped. I think I can trust you, Larry. After all,
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to be your friend. Basically takes the
Speaker 1: boy to task on his behavior. I'm here for a
Speaker 1: purpose to do something about your manners. What do you mean,
Speaker 1: my man, I'm worried about you. Larry, Hey, hey, what
Speaker 1: are you doing? I'm gonna wipe you out, That's what
Speaker 1: my heavens. You are a bad mannered young man, aren't you,
Speaker 1: and teaches him a lesson. I'm ready to go, Larry,
Speaker 1: oh jee, No, Chalky, I can't do that. I need
Speaker 1: you to help me with my manners. No, Larry, you
Speaker 1: don't need me anymore. You can learn good manners yourself
Speaker 1: by watching the good manners of others, and he eventually
Speaker 1: learns from it. Larry, you've done an excellent job on
Speaker 1: the chalkboard. Thank you, Miss Ryan. What about prejudice is
Speaker 1: pretty good because it is high school students. I don't
Speaker 1: know about you, but I think the best party you've
Speaker 1: ever said North And there is one student who you
Speaker 1: never see. This is the story of Bruce Jones, who
Speaker 1: walked in a shadow of hate and suspicions. Who is
Speaker 1: being prejudiced against? You see the reconciliation. You see how
Speaker 1: they process that, and it's pretty great. The thing is,
Speaker 1: it wasn't Bruce at all. I was the one neatly
Speaker 1: fitting people into categories because of where they go to church,
Speaker 1: or what their fathers do, or what the color of
Speaker 1: their skin is. The Innocent Party is one of several
Speaker 1: venerial disease films that Centron did. The Quarkscrews. Things of
Speaker 1: the terms of these films talk about young adults and
Speaker 1: kids are having sex and they're getting venerial disease, and
Speaker 1: I'm talking about it and it's a problem. I'm not
Speaker 1: here to like a moral jud but you and I
Speaker 1: know that it was kindtracted sexual intercourse with an infected person.
Speaker 1: That that beat that only summer of love thing that
Speaker 1: was much later. Choosing a classroom film is kind of
Speaker 1: an ad Proper use of film heightens the importance of
Speaker 1: the teacher and makes his contribution all the more necessary.
Speaker 1: This is how you use an educational film. Such films
Speaker 1: provide common experiences through which your students can more easily
Speaker 1: gain a new appreciation of themselves and the factors which
Speaker 1: shape their lives. The narrator here seen on camera is
Speaker 1: her curvy himself. Let's take a look at some screen examples.
Speaker 1: They would probably give that away to a school system
Speaker 1: and say, but here, here's a film about choosing classroom films,
Speaker 1: and here's a catalog, and you get to go through
Speaker 1: and pick what fits and why you would pick a
Speaker 1: film for a given class. You will develop your own
Speaker 1: skill in evaluating films by learning to recognize some of
Speaker 1: the film techniques we have demonstrated here. Now, each of
Speaker 1: these serve an essential purpose, but remember too that any
Speaker 1: one of them may serve a secondary purpose, which may
Speaker 1: be very important in relation to your teaching goals. In
Speaker 1: an educational film, you have eleven minutes to tell what
Speaker 1: you need to tell, and so how do you relay
Speaker 1: that information? How do you break down the shots? You
Speaker 1: have to be very efficient, and you have to be
Speaker 1: very deliberate. I feel like that deliberateness and that efficiency
Speaker 1: helped Carnival of Souls. Thirty five millimeter was very expensive,
Speaker 1: and the fact that they had shot so many educational
Speaker 1: films was kind of a similar criteria of look and
Speaker 1: got to knock it out in the thoughtful way, in
Speaker 1: a smart way. I don't think shots were wasted in
Speaker 1: that film. The idea of doing a thirty five millimeter
Speaker 1: feature film for thirteen thousand dollars cache is a little
Speaker 1: staggering even then, but we did get the money and
Speaker 1: decided yes, we can do it, and start and shooting
Speaker 1: the film in order to make Carnival. Harvey relied heavily
Speaker 1: on his Centron rollo. Dex Carnival of Souls writer John
Speaker 1: Clifford was also on staff with Centron. The nice thing
Speaker 1: about working with her is that, over the years, to
Speaker 1: come up with something difficult, he always says, well, you're right,
Speaker 1: that's the way you think it ought to be, and
Speaker 1: I'll get it shut. I'll try to, so you know,
Speaker 1: writers appreciate it. He's asked me do the writing, and
Speaker 1: I stay out of his dre There's a lot of
Speaker 1: actors in there that show up in Centron films, and
Speaker 1: a lot of locations that show up in Centron films
Speaker 1: as well, So it's like, oh, I know that guy.
Speaker 1: Obviously that guy grow up like he was in this
Speaker 1: y study science film, and now he's a hot rotter.
Speaker 1: Larry Sneakers, the cut who began the drag race which
Speaker 1: started the film, Joe, drag your foot boy. Look what
Speaker 1: we got here? Now you wanted right? Uh. Sneagus was
Speaker 1: also the movie's production manager, so he borrowed pretty heavily
Speaker 1: from there, and he also borrowed pretty heavily from University
Speaker 1: of Kansas is Dramatic School. Come on, what do you
Speaker 1: I'm an alcoholic look. I just like the s thought
Speaker 1: that they often a good mood. That's all. You must
Speaker 1: be hilarious by noons. Lifelong theater teacher Sidney Burger, who
Speaker 1: played the creepy neighbor John Lindon was another k you alone.
Speaker 1: Wonderful time I was raving student here at KU when
Speaker 1: I Will were made in Karl Soul and the story
Speaker 1: about he was kind of interesting. One job On in
Speaker 1: the audience, Lara Sneaks probably hates Michael because I took
Speaker 1: the part away from him. He had all those resources
Speaker 1: available and just tapped all that because he knew all
Speaker 1: those people herk Harvey had access to studios and filming
Speaker 1: and development and sound because he filmmaking at the University
Speaker 1: of Kansas and Lawrence. This is Candice Hilligos, who played Mary,
Speaker 1: the lead role in Carnival Souls. Thank you for the coffee.
Speaker 1: It was an sanitary but delicious He thought that by
Speaker 1: making Carnival, if Carnival were successful, he could turn that
Speaker 1: into a major studio that would make more and higher
Speaker 1: budgeted movies. Carnival was a notoriously scrappy production. I've seen
Speaker 1: the budget estimated around thirty dollars but in interviews Harvey
Speaker 1: said it was less for the starring part. Hilligos reportedly
Speaker 1: need I was really the only paid person, and that
Speaker 1: was a great payment. Raised Body, who was one of
Speaker 1: our cinematographers, said he got seventy five dollars. It was
Speaker 1: shot in twenty eight days, and sometimes we went around
Speaker 1: the clock. We went twenty four hours, so it was
Speaker 1: very hard. I had no idea that in a low
Speaker 1: budget there's no double You do all the stunts, So
Speaker 1: if they want you to fall off a bridge, you
Speaker 1: have to do it. They want you to crash a car,
Speaker 1: you have to crash it. He didn't tell me that
Speaker 1: when we raced across the bridge in a car that
Speaker 1: underneath was a big gas line, and he's wondering if
Speaker 1: the two cars going across together. He was very worried
Speaker 1: that that gas line could come apart and explode. So
Speaker 1: there were a number of moments like that that I
Speaker 1: had no idea. As the friends said by coint, it
Speaker 1: out about five places that you could have been killed.
Speaker 1: One of the stunts Candice had to perform was emerging
Speaker 1: from the lake after her car had fallen off the bridge.
Speaker 1: When we came back to film that Indian summer had
Speaker 1: gone and winter had come. I said, I don't think
Speaker 1: I can go in the water. They're standing there, they're
Speaker 1: wearing mittens and hats, and they're asking me to go
Speaker 1: into that water again. I said, I don't know if
Speaker 1: I can do it. I stood in the water and
Speaker 1: her Carvey was standing with me in bathing suits and
Speaker 1: the sweater. He said, if you don't do it, we
Speaker 1: don't have an ending. And I said I can't do it.
Speaker 1: So he pushed me and I started to scream. I
Speaker 1: screamed so loudly that a highway patrolman out on the
Speaker 1: highway heard my screens and came roaring through the woods
Speaker 1: looking to see what was happening. When he saw them,
Speaker 1: perk Harvey picked me up and threw me in the water.
Speaker 1: He jumped out of his car and he ran out
Speaker 1: with his gun and he says, what's going on here?
Speaker 1: What are you doing with that girl? And they try
Speaker 1: I had to tell it was just a movie, and
Speaker 1: he says, well, I'm not leaving. I'm watching you. Remember
Speaker 1: the day you've got in the car and held me in.
Speaker 1: There was a policeman there and he had to leave
Speaker 1: or arrest me. So I guess you thought it was
Speaker 1: diplomatic to leave, and I think Candice could have killed
Speaker 1: him and me both because it was cold. The film
Speaker 1: was primarily shot on and in fact designed around location,
Speaker 1: most importantly the abandoned Salt Air Pavilion on Utah's Great
Speaker 1: Salt Lake, which may have inspired the whole film, as
Speaker 1: it is the story's literal carnival of souls. It all
Speaker 1: started here at the Kansas River and in the active
Speaker 1: imagination of Mr Harvey. As I told you, I went
Speaker 1: on vacation and coming back from Los Angeles, I saw
Speaker 1: this place, Salt Air, which is located just outside of
Speaker 1: Salt Lake. It's very Russian arabisk In architecture, and I
Speaker 1: saw it at sunset. It was the weirdest looking thing
Speaker 1: I've ever seen. So I stopped the car and walked
Speaker 1: about a half mile to take a look at it
Speaker 1: and noticed it was deserted. Uh quite a way is
Speaker 1: now from the lake because Salt Lake had gone down,
Speaker 1: and so the amusement park is sitting away from the lake.
Speaker 1: So I came back and talked to John, showed him
Speaker 1: a couple of the pictures that I took when I
Speaker 1: was there, and said, you know, it's a great location.
Speaker 1: We've got to figure out something to do with that.
Speaker 1: So John, in his usual way of being invented, comes
Speaker 1: up with Carnival of Souls. It was some sort of
Speaker 1: lakeside attraction where the lake had basically evaporated, and so
Speaker 1: it was just kind of there in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 1: Right off the bat. You see it, You're like, what
Speaker 1: the handle is that? Why is it in the middle
Speaker 1: of what looks like a desert? What's going on? I mean,
Speaker 1: that was some amazing scouting, very thoughtful use of location.
Speaker 1: Being out there alone in that pavilion, which is big
Speaker 1: enough to hold three thousand, the crew started to get scared.
Speaker 1: They actually felt very spooked by the whole place, and
Speaker 1: so they said, when everyone goes to the cars, we
Speaker 1: go together. It burned down seven years after we had
Speaker 1: been there, and this is the only footage they've ever
Speaker 1: had on it. Location also informed a character choice, dron
Speaker 1: around and the theme of the carnival score so much
Speaker 1: pipe work. Well, for a start, I can't think of
Speaker 1: another horror film I know where the heroin is an organist,
Speaker 1: and it's not just on the soundtrack. It's actually a
Speaker 1: really interesting part of the film itself. Well I play.
Speaker 1: But they did that because they realized they had an
Speaker 1: organ factory, and they said, wouldn't it be wonderful if
Speaker 1: we could use the organ factory. So let's make her
Speaker 1: an organ You've got the amazing the atmospheric score, which
Speaker 1: right from the start you get the close up of
Speaker 1: the titles on the murky water of the river where
Speaker 1: the cars with the dead bodies, and you get the
Speaker 1: probably as horror of yours we have a subconscious association
Speaker 1: of nineties horror films or you know, fhatom of the
Speaker 1: opera on the organ. But actually it makes sense in
Speaker 1: the film as well, where Mary's job is to play
Speaker 1: church music. And yet one of the interesting themes in
Speaker 1: the film is that she's clearly not religious. And what
Speaker 1: does she say that it's just for the paycheck, it's
Speaker 1: all about the money for her. Well, Mary, you'll make
Speaker 1: a fine organist for that church. Be very satisfying to you.
Speaker 1: I think it's just a job. To me, Oh, it's
Speaker 1: not quite the attitude for going into church work. I'm
Speaker 1: not taking the vows. I'm only going to play the
Speaker 1: org And people keep telling her you need to play
Speaker 1: like you've got a soul. Mary. It takes more than
Speaker 1: intellect to be a musician, but your soul into a
Speaker 1: room that's very subtle, and I feel sorry for you
Speaker 1: and your lack of soul. In After speedy and thrifty production,
Speaker 1: her Carvey was ready to find distribution for his debut feature.
Speaker 1: Back in the day, if you had a good distributor,
Speaker 1: they would play your film for years. You'd make a
Speaker 1: print of it, or a couple of prints of it,
Speaker 1: and then they would make them way slowly around the country.
Speaker 1: Good evening folks had a hearty welcome to our drive
Speaker 1: in theater. We have a wonderful evenings entertainment lined up
Speaker 1: for you, one that will provide several hours of pleasurable
Speaker 1: relaxation and diversion for you and your family. There were
Speaker 1: something like eighteen thousand drive in movie theaters in the
Speaker 1: United States at that time line, and they thought if
Speaker 1: they could take this movie as an independent and sell
Speaker 1: it as a double bill to movie drive in theaters,
Speaker 1: they would have eighteen thousand theaters buying their movie. So
Speaker 1: they showed it to a couple of drive in people
Speaker 1: and they looked at it and they said, well, you
Speaker 1: know it kind of looks artsy for us, and they said,
Speaker 1: what do you mean? And they said, well, you know,
Speaker 1: shouldn't you have her beat up a little and you
Speaker 1: know she's in a car accident, shouldn't she come out
Speaker 1: of the water with no clothes on. I mean, if
Speaker 1: you're going to make it a double bill with Lawn
Speaker 1: Channi Jrs. The Devil's Messenger, it's too artistic looking for
Speaker 1: a double bill. And I don't think they realized that.
Speaker 1: At the time he was trying to market Carnival of Souls.
Speaker 1: Somebody was like, well, have you made other films, And
Speaker 1: he's like, yeah, like a thousand other films, all these
Speaker 1: educational films. Now about those manners, I'm afraid you've got
Speaker 1: to improve them. Yeah, who says, so I do, and
Speaker 1: practically everyone else that We're never shown a theater, but
Speaker 1: they certainly got more eyeballs than a lot of films
Speaker 1: I got shown in theaters. Finally, he found this very
Speaker 1: small distributor called Her Flying. He said, well, I'll pick
Speaker 1: on your movie herks as well. You can have it
Speaker 1: for theaters, but you cannot have it for television. It
Speaker 1: got kind of a slightly botched release. It didn't have
Speaker 1: a very wide distribution in the first place, and then
Speaker 1: herk says he went down he was filming a documentary.
Speaker 1: Why the time he came home, the first checks from
Speaker 1: her sly and had bounced. I went to South America
Speaker 1: on another film, and when I came back it was
Speaker 1: obvious that they owed us considerable money but hadn't paid
Speaker 1: us a cent. And then he heard from a friend,
Speaker 1: it's one o'clock am in Florida and I'm watching Carnivals
Speaker 1: on television. Well, then her found out that her slon
Speaker 1: had sold the movie to a hundred TV stations, and
Speaker 1: he became a fugitive and disappeared to some foreign country,
Speaker 1: so no one could find him. When I started investigating,
Speaker 1: I got no replies, and the next thing I knew,
Speaker 1: the president of the company had gone to Europe and
Speaker 1: the funds were gone with him. Then it was impossible
Speaker 1: to trace it all down. Our Carvey didn't subsequently do
Speaker 1: any feature length films after that. He said he never
Speaker 1: do another one. He had done over seventy documentaries and commercials,
Speaker 1: so he went back to filming them, but he said
Speaker 1: he couldn't go through what he went through at the time.
Speaker 1: I know he went back to making educational films. Ben
Speaker 1: john Is making films up until mid eighties, so he
Speaker 1: was a successful educational filmmaker after the fact, and that's
Speaker 1: kind of what he did. Pay the bills. Arguably, Herk's
Speaker 1: most famous corporate film came in nineteen eighties Shake Hands
Speaker 1: with Danger, Shake Hands with Danger, Shake Hands with Danger,
Speaker 1: Need a guy who ought to know. I used to
Speaker 1: laugh in Safety. Now they called me three finger Joe
Speaker 1: Centron a couple of films for Caterpillar Heavy Equipment, Shake
Speaker 1: Hands with Danger and Signals were I met the guy
Speaker 1: who wrote the music for Shake Hands with Danger, Jim Stringer,
Speaker 1: and we talked a lot about how this film was
Speaker 1: made and how popular it was. Shake Hands with Danger
Speaker 1: Taking Chance. He said, you won't fall, and you'll shave
Speaker 1: yourself minute, but you may damn well lose it all.
Speaker 1: I'd like to claim credit for making it popular again
Speaker 1: to a whole new generation of people, because it is wonderful.
Speaker 1: It is like an example of a film that is
Speaker 1: still being reference today, and it is still being shown today.
Speaker 1: Hervey's last directing work on record is one segment of
Speaker 1: an episode in the first season of Reading Rainbow, And
Speaker 1: I might even take time out from my favorite rainy
Speaker 1: day sport. Perk himself plays the policeman who can't resist
Speaker 1: the alula of hopping in a puddle. Those school today
Speaker 1: and I've woken them a dad again. School and shopping?
Speaker 1: What a thing? Don't feel the blue? Go down your coat?
Speaker 1: And radar day shoot Botopol. The botched release of Carnival
Speaker 1: of Souls into could have been the end of the story.
Speaker 1: Her Carvey might have joined the ranks of countless other
Speaker 1: forgotten filmmakers, just another ghost at the party. But it
Speaker 1: turns out the Carnival, like its main character, got the
Speaker 1: chance to live a second life. You say, what is
Speaker 1: it called classic? That kind of concept really hit in
Speaker 1: the eighties. I mean there were cult movies prior to
Speaker 1: that that we're kind of midnight movies that showed in
Speaker 1: some theaters at night. John Waters was definitely part of
Speaker 1: that Rocky Heart picture show, Razor Head. Those are all
Speaker 1: popular things where people would get stone and go see
Speaker 1: a movie at midnight. Just cut them up like regular chickens. Sure,
Speaker 1: just cut them up like regular chickens. Carnival Souls maybe
Speaker 1: had that some programmer was like, oh, this film was
Speaker 1: awesome and programmed it, but it didn't take off really
Speaker 1: until it was available on VHS. After the distribution debacle,
Speaker 1: the copyright lapsed on Carnival of Souls, bringing the film
Speaker 1: into the public domain. Ironically, that's why people started watching
Speaker 1: it again. When the VHS stores and the VHS market appeared,
Speaker 1: it was a frenzy of content people trying to find
Speaker 1: content to put on VHS tapes to sell the fact
Speaker 1: that this had a public domain status meant that there
Speaker 1: were lots of companies that were finding a print, transferring
Speaker 1: it and then releasing it for sale on VHS, so
Speaker 1: in dollar bins you would have Carnival Souls. I think
Speaker 1: that's what made it cult status, is the fact that
Speaker 1: you could see it everywhere. It was kind of like,
Speaker 1: it's a wonderful life. It's all one life and sky.
Speaker 1: When It's a wonderful Life came out, it wasn't really
Speaker 1: well received. People didn't like it, the story, it was old,
Speaker 1: too weird, please I want to live again. I want
Speaker 1: to live again. And it fell into public domain because
Speaker 1: they just didn't renew it. The studio was like but
Speaker 1: TV stations started showing it because it was free to
Speaker 1: show it, and it was Christmas related, and it had
Speaker 1: like actors that people liked. Who are you? I told you, George,
Speaker 1: I'm your God, your angel God, I know what you
Speaker 1: told about it. So it got super popular and so
Speaker 1: popular that Republic Pictures like retroactively figured out a way
Speaker 1: to pull it out of public domain. But the nature
Speaker 1: of it being in public domain that's what made it popular.
Speaker 1: If they had renewed the copyright, it wouldn't have been popular. Definitely.
Speaker 1: I want to get out of here. I want to
Speaker 1: get away from here. I think that that's what happened here,
Speaker 1: is that you had lots of people that could see
Speaker 1: it easily all over the United States. It's bound now lone, yeah, nine,
Speaker 1: and you watch it at home and it has a
Speaker 1: good slow burn to it, or it was shown on
Speaker 1: your chiller theater back in the day because it was
Speaker 1: inexpensive for them to show it anyway. I know your problem.
Speaker 1: You just saw a carnival of souls. How would you
Speaker 1: describe it? Was unsanitary but delicious. That's how you kind
Speaker 1: of seed occult film, as you just show it all
Speaker 1: the time everywhere I gather. In an American context, it
Speaker 1: was shown quite regularly late at night in the wee
Speaker 1: hours of the morning, and so it was probably caught
Speaker 1: by a lot of people who didn't quite know what
Speaker 1: they were watching everywhere. I'm not going to let me go.
Speaker 1: I think that he did get to see the resurgence
Speaker 1: of the film as a cult status, which is great.
Speaker 1: It wasn't just he did it and then it languished
Speaker 1: and died. People were actively still seeing it. And we're
Speaker 1: beginning to make phone calls about her. Her attorney, you
Speaker 1: were in that film. When this was first shown, it
Speaker 1: was shown primarily in drive and it was part of
Speaker 1: a double bill with The Devil's Messenger. And now in
Speaker 1: it's rerelease, it's being shown in the art houses where
Speaker 1: just where we would like to head up the first
Speaker 1: time around, And as far as we're concerned, that's great.
Speaker 1: Makes all the difference. It became an underground swell. It
Speaker 1: started being picked up from colleges and it started to
Speaker 1: grow and to grow and to grow. And then her said,
Speaker 1: U teacher said, I was just in Sweden, and she said,
Speaker 1: I'm bringing you your reviews for Carnivals Souls in Sweden,
Speaker 1: And then he learned it was in Germany, it was
Speaker 1: in England. It went to Italy. He got invited to
Speaker 1: the Munique Film Festival. When he got to the theater,
Speaker 1: it was sold out, and he said afterwards that kept
Speaker 1: him on the stage till two o'clock in the morning,
Speaker 1: asking him questions. It's nice too, though, isn't it when
Speaker 1: the underdogs finally start to get a bit of recognition.
Speaker 1: I think there's a nice kind of afterlife for this
Speaker 1: film that that will probably only continue to get stronger,
Speaker 1: which is very well deserved. The name Carnival's Souls was
Speaker 1: licensed from writer John Clifford for a film that appeared
Speaker 1: to have nothing to do with the original. They took
Speaker 1: the name of the film and they made a flasher
Speaker 1: film out of it. West Graven Presents Show Time Carnival
Speaker 1: of Souls. It never got so to a theater. It
Speaker 1: went just to DVDs and no one ever really saw it.
Speaker 1: Partly it was alludic. Candice Hiligoths had also been developing
Speaker 1: her own sequel. I spent two years building interest in it,
Speaker 1: and we had an option, and then our option ended
Speaker 1: and we went back to resign it with her Carvey again,
Speaker 1: and her Carvey was dying of cancer. Her Carvey passed
Speaker 1: away in Despite the fact, the only helmed one feature film.
Speaker 1: The legacy of his cinematic style has lived on all
Speaker 1: kinds of productions have been accused of taking influence from
Speaker 1: Carnival Souls. When Carnival sort of got lost in the beginning,
Speaker 1: it became a hit when it was revived twenty years later,
Speaker 1: and then everyone said Carnival started it all. Carnival of Souls. Really,
Speaker 1: Haspile owned a long tradition of American late twentieth century
Speaker 1: horror films. Our movie was copied many times. In fact,
Speaker 1: the most famous one was Michael Jackson's thriller who was
Speaker 1: inspired from the ghouls that were dancing in the Salt
Speaker 1: Air pavilion. I'm not like other guys, of course, not
Speaker 1: that's why I love you. No, I mean I'm different.
Speaker 1: Given David Lynch, I'd be surprised if he hadn't seen it,
Speaker 1: given an obviously a cinephile, and would know. I think
Speaker 1: his antecedents well. But in my hot even people thought
Speaker 1: blue Velvet and carry a girl who lives in that
Speaker 1: creepy house with a crazy mother had some elements of
Speaker 1: Carnival in it. Then, of course Beetle Juice copied us beetlejuice,
Speaker 1: it's your dad. Now I have a living dead. In
Speaker 1: the beginning, George ra Merrow talked about how he had
Speaker 1: been Carnival and I had inspired him. What's happening? What Happening?
Speaker 1: Night of the Living Dead was also maybe a little
Speaker 1: bit overlooked at the time, but did quite rapidly gain
Speaker 1: a culture reputation and then a mainstream reputation because George
Speaker 1: ra Merrow obviously went on to even bigger and better things.
Speaker 1: Don't worry about him, and I can handle him. Probably
Speaker 1: be a lot more of them as soon as they
Speaker 1: find out about us, whereas that didn't quite happen unfortunately
Speaker 1: for her. Carvey Carnival two is an early example of
Speaker 1: a now popular movie trip the twist ending in which
Speaker 1: the perspective character was dead all along, living out a
Speaker 1: ghost walk upon the earth. Carnival of Souls really has
Speaker 1: spawned a long tradition of American little fenty a century
Speaker 1: horror films about people who have died in car accidents
Speaker 1: but don't actually know it till the end of the film.
Speaker 1: So that's where I kind of came across it. Sorry
Speaker 1: to take stop. It was God to tell me what
Speaker 1: to do you obviously have the precedent of classic nineteenth
Speaker 1: century American literature with Ambrose Spears an occurrence Atdile Creek Bridge,
Speaker 1: which is maybe the pioneering literary text of that type
Speaker 1: promise of that really quick in Civil War, somebody's been
Speaker 1: hung for either being a trader, was a prisoner, or
Speaker 1: something like. That's being hung like on this bridge, and
Speaker 1: it seems like the protagonist has escaped death by hanging.
Speaker 1: The rope breaks as he's been hung, and he lands
Speaker 1: in the river and basically swims away. He's being shot
Speaker 1: at all that stuff, but eventually escaped. He goes through
Speaker 1: all these adventures and makes his way back to his girlfriend.
Speaker 1: His sweetheart, who is on a plantation, is running to her,
Speaker 1: and he runs to embrace her and kiss her, and
Speaker 1: then spoiler alert, he's hume the whole story is actually
Speaker 1: hallucination he's had in the moments before death, and so
Speaker 1: what it is is it's everything that happened as he
Speaker 1: was descending being hung. So it's like his life suddenly
Speaker 1: fleshed out this whole thing and then he died. Hornible
Speaker 1: Souls has that same type of feel to occurrence at
Speaker 1: out Creek Bridge the commonality of their dead and their
Speaker 1: brain is kind of going down this crazy you know,
Speaker 1: it's like a dream. It felt like I was in
Speaker 1: there for days and it was only like thirty seconds.
Speaker 1: Is she going to hell? Or is she being escorted
Speaker 1: to death? It kind of plays with a lot of things.
Speaker 1: It doesn't spell anything else, which I think is kind
Speaker 1: of great. And there is that payoff that educational film has,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, pulling a dead body out of
Speaker 1: a car. So don't dry and race because you'll be
Speaker 1: haunted in the beer seconds before you die. For a
Speaker 1: guy who devoted his professional life to the education of
Speaker 1: others through the art and grammar of filmmaking and gave
Speaker 1: us so many gems that may have needed the passage
Speaker 1: of time to fully appreciate her, Carvey seems to have
Speaker 1: remained pretty humble about his one crossover success. Well, all
Speaker 1: I've said about Carnival Soulvis and it's a heck of
Speaker 1: a note when a film that has failed financially is
Speaker 1: your total breadth of success in the future film market.
Speaker 1: This episode of a Femily was written and produced by
Speaker 1: Max Williams, Trevor Young, and Dallas Williams. With special thanks
Speaker 1: to Brett Wood, Anti Terry and Tiffany Defote from Cult
Speaker 1: Radio Lagoga for allowing us to excerpt their interview with
Speaker 1: Candice Hillip on crag Law. Hear the full broadcast and
Speaker 1: much more at c r A g G Radio dot com.
Speaker 1: Bernice Murphy is the author of the book The Highway
Speaker 1: Horror Film and the upcoming The California goth And Fiction Film.
Speaker 1: Follow her on Twitter that Murph Gotha and Skip. Elzheimer
Speaker 1: is the eyes and ears behind the Avy Geeks ephemeral
Speaker 1: film mark watch her Carvey Centron shorts and other sixteen
Speaker 1: million in the Masterpieces over at a vy geeks dot com,
Speaker 1: links in videos on our website ephemeral dot com. Wh