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Speaker 1: Tonight's classic episode all about celebrities. This is one for

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Speaker 1: the pop culture fans in the crowd. We went through

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Speaker 1: a Beatles phase a while back to where we were

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Speaker 1: asking ourselves, oh gosh, we did a video about it.

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Speaker 1: Did the real Paul McCartney get replaced?

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Speaker 2: Turn me on dead man? He was the Walrus? He

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Speaker 2: is the Walrus?

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Speaker 1: Or is he the Walrus?

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Speaker 2: Is that the one? No? Yeah, we did that, But

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Speaker 2: we also did the audition tape wherein we imply that Ben,

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Speaker 2: you and I have been replaced by agents of some sort.

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Speaker 1: Everybody knows that, yeah, and everybody has these crazy theories too,

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Speaker 1: about not just celebrities, not just your Taylor Swift's, but

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Speaker 1: also your notable historical figures. You're a Saddam Hussein's, you know,

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Speaker 1: the great villains of history. Now, in this classic episode,

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Speaker 1: we're looking at fact fiction and plausibility of the idea

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Speaker 1: of body doubles, and also, would you ever get a

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Speaker 1: body double if the situation wation presented, I'd consider it.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the best way to do it, the

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Speaker 1: honest way to do it, is just to have an

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Speaker 1: identical twin.

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Speaker 2: I think how everyone can't be so lucky?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, not yet.

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Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

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Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

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Speaker 3: learn this stuff they don't want you to know.

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Speaker 1: A production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the show. My name is Matt Noel

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Speaker 2: is on an adventure.

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Speaker 1: They called me Ben. We were joined as always with

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Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission Control Decat most importantly, you

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Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want

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Speaker 1: you to know. We have a special guest of sorts today, Matt.

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Speaker 2: We do. We have JJ Posway. He's a new producer

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Speaker 2: here at the iHeart Radio Network, the iHeart Radio Podcast Network.

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Speaker 1: That's a hard shrug you're doing there, man.

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Speaker 2: Whatever this thing is they we're a part of, is

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Speaker 2: called Yeah, it's pretty pretty awesome. It's good to have

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Speaker 2: you here. JJ. Apparently he knew like what this show

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Speaker 2: was before getting.

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Speaker 1: Here, right, and we're still friends.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, he's like trip. He hasn't looked me

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Speaker 2: in the eye yet, just because I kind of like

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Speaker 2: ran into the studio right before we hit record. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and I can't see him because my view of JJ. Oh, Okay,

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Speaker 2: he's looking at me oh gosh.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, Well you've got sort of blue steel vibe

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Speaker 1: going on today, so I can see how people would be,

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Speaker 1: you know, gotcha a little bit intimidated.

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Speaker 2: Oh I'm feeling it. I'm feeling the blue steel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going for kind of an eye of the

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Speaker 1: tiger thing and I'm sort of doing it. I'm pulling

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Speaker 1: it off kind of.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, I'm seeing the intensity. So just to check

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Speaker 2: in with you, everything's good. We just had our big

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Speaker 2: July fourth, like I guess, weekend.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I have some some traveler that I need

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Speaker 1: to catch up on. But yeah, July fourth, woo woo America. Right.

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Speaker 1: I hope you had a good weekend as well. And

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Speaker 1: if you are listening in a different country, July fourth,

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Speaker 1: I think it's weird for us to assume everybody knows this.

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Speaker 1: July fourth is when the United States celebrates independence from Britain, right,

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Speaker 1: And the way in which the US most often tends

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Speaker 1: to celebrate this day is through getting kind of drunk,

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Speaker 1: lighting fireworks, and having barbecues.

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Speaker 2: There you go, and that's what some of us did.

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Speaker 1: That's very diplomatic. How are you guys doing out there

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Speaker 1: in the booth? Thumbs up, thumbs.

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Speaker 2: Down, thumbs up all the way combs up.

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Speaker 1: That's great. And how are you doing, folks out there

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Speaker 1: listening to day? Do you have something on your mind?

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Speaker 1: How We're going to investigate some pretty interesting stuff here

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Speaker 1: that may be familiar to some of us. If at

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Speaker 1: any time while we're exploring this strange rabbit hole, the

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Speaker 1: spirit so moves you when you have something on your

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Speaker 1: mind that you want to tell us and you don't

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Speaker 1: want to have to type it out, they have no fear.

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Speaker 1: You can pause the show. We'll wait for you, and

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Speaker 1: you can give us a call.

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Speaker 2: You can call us at one eight three three s

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Speaker 2: wk'll you'll figure it out. You'll hear Ben on there.

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Speaker 2: You'll know you're in the right place.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like we've established the rules of the call.

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Speaker 1: I lied such that at this point, you know, fill

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Speaker 1: it up. Yeah, all you have to do is call so.

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Speaker 2: So we talked at the top here just about how

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Speaker 2: honestly odd it is when someone I can't speak for you, Ben,

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Speaker 2: but it's an odd experience when someone recognizes your voice.

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Speaker 2: And on this show it's only happened to me a

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Speaker 2: handful of times. I'm assuming that it's happened to you

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Speaker 2: more because you had a visual present on this show

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Speaker 2: for so long, and so many people watch those videos.

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Speaker 2: But today we're talking about the concept of being known,

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Speaker 2: of being recognized right.

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Speaker 1: To the nth degree. As indeed, Matt, we were talking

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Speaker 1: about the concept of celebrity. Celebrity is really bizarre when

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Speaker 1: you think about it. Since before the dawn of recorded

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Speaker 1: human history, we've looked to place our beliefs and our

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Speaker 1: values on the form of a familiar face, something that

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Speaker 1: is like us. Abstract ideas were all well and good

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Speaker 1: on their own, but generally speaking, humans like other humans

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Speaker 1: or things that look like humans, and they want that

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Speaker 1: to be sort of a code rack upon which ideas hang,

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Speaker 1: something with which we can directly identify. So for a

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Speaker 1: lot of people, maybe during the Cold War in the West,

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Speaker 1: when they thought of communism, they didn't think of a

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Speaker 1: bunch of ideals written by some stuffy, old dead European folks.

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Speaker 1: They thought about specific propaganda image, maybe a soldier in

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Speaker 1: red marching or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we are a symbol seeking being, the human is

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Speaker 2: and the celebrities a lot of times are the representations

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Speaker 2: of from propaganda are ways for us to quickly organize

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Speaker 2: the way we feel about something, or the way we

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Speaker 2: should feel about something, or the way we actually do

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Speaker 2: feel about something or someone right.

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Speaker 1: And we can be blinded by this too, which is

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Speaker 1: a bit of a different bag of badgers for us.

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Speaker 1: We can be blinded by this in strange ways, and

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Speaker 1: our brains are pretty good at making things seem normal.

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Speaker 1: So picture, imagine your mind, the most famous person you

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Speaker 1: can think of, the most famous person caveat who is

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Speaker 1: alive today. If that person said something that jibe with

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Speaker 1: what they usually say, their diehard supporters are more likely

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Speaker 1: to go along with it because they identify with the

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Speaker 1: person first interesting and the idea that they have. You know,

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Speaker 1: they can be led along or led astray someone say,

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Speaker 1: just by the way in which that person with whom

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Speaker 1: they identify says or explains a certain thing. And this

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Speaker 1: is why human beings love the concept of celebrities. In

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways, celebrities today are similar to deities

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Speaker 1: in ancient times. You know, people obsess over them. We

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Speaker 1: perform certain rituals, and that doesn't necessarily mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're sacrificing a goat to Neil de grass Tyson or

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Speaker 1: Bill Hie or something It.

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Speaker 2: Can be as simple as checking your Instagram stories every

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Speaker 2: day or every couple of hours, or something.

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Speaker 1: Right right, Or you always listen to a song by

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Speaker 1: your favorite musician when you're about to do a thing,

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Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like you always play on

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Speaker 1: the Road Again by Willie Nelson when you're on a

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Speaker 1: road trip.

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Speaker 2: So that's the first track at least, right.

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Speaker 1: Right, exactly, So when we perform these rituals, we feel

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Speaker 1: a genuine personal connection with entities that we may have

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Speaker 1: never met and may well never meet an hour lifetime.

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Speaker 2: And who may not be anything like the representation that

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Speaker 2: exists on whatever medium you're consuming exactly.

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Speaker 1: So it's no wonder then that the world of celebrity

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Speaker 1: is also a world rife with conspiracy. A while back,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to bring this to your attention. A while back, Matt,

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Speaker 1: you and I did a strange video which I still

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Speaker 1: think holds up. Yeah, it's kind of ridiculous, but in

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Speaker 1: that video we have this sort of meet the team

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Speaker 1: kind of thing, right, And in there you have you

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Speaker 1: built this great chart supporting the notion that Paul McCartney

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Speaker 1: had died and been replaced by someone else. Do you

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Speaker 1: remember this?

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Speaker 2: I do remember this and shout out to Diana, my wife,

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Speaker 2: because she gave me most of the information that was

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Speaker 2: included in that. She helped me build that thing. She

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Speaker 2: is she has an obsession like we're talking about with

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Speaker 2: the Beatles, whether living or dead, and she knows so much.

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Speaker 2: She basically was like, oh, yeah, well, here's all the things.

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Speaker 2: You just put this on there, put that on there all,

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Speaker 2: cut all this stuff out here. You got it.

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Speaker 1: That's awesome, man, that's awesome. That video is still around

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Speaker 1: on our YouTube channel, which I missed, by the way,

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Speaker 1: for some reason. The main thing I remember about that

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Speaker 1: video is you holding some kind of pipe, yes, and

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Speaker 1: looking and explaining this conspiracy thing to me, and then

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Speaker 1: we're in a bathroom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we realized we're in a bathroom and you've been

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Speaker 2: urinating the entire time.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's right. As it cuts over, spoil h it

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Speaker 1: is safe for work. We should say that we thought

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Speaker 1: that was hilarious and we hope you enjoy it. Maybe

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Speaker 1: some of our fellow longtime listeners in the audience remember

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Speaker 1: that when today we are diving back into the world

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Speaker 1: of celebrity conspiracy, specifically the idea that some of the

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Speaker 1: world's most famous people have been secretly replaced by lookalikes,

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Speaker 1: body doubles, dappel gangers.

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Speaker 2: Oooh, dappele gangers. Can I say it? So? Guess what?

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Speaker 2: Here are the facts? Just doesn't sound the same when

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Speaker 2: we've got it, here are the facts. When we hear

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Speaker 2: that word celebrity, you know, we've been talking about this

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Speaker 2: whole time. We're all on the same page. We understand

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Speaker 2: what that is. Somebody who is known a famous person

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Speaker 2: and athlete, a musician, an actor, maybe even one of

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Speaker 2: those insta fluencers. I don't even know how you say it.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's good that I did. That's great. Yeah, that's good.

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Speaker 1: I like that exactly.

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Speaker 2: But but there's a there's a thing here and it's

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Speaker 2: tough to differentiate, but we're gonna try and do it.

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Speaker 2: Here between someone being capital F famous, it's not really capital,

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Speaker 2: but let's just use a capital F as in this

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Speaker 2: person is known throughout the world for some reason as

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Speaker 2: a human person that does things, but then an internet

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Speaker 2: famous person that is slightly different.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would, I would say so, I would completely

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Speaker 1: agree with that. So we're talking maybe about athletes, musicians,

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Speaker 1: actors and so on. That's often what we mean, right,

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Speaker 1: when we say, as you say, capital F famous or

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Speaker 1: heads of states or heads of religions, people.

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Speaker 2: Who are photographed by other people all the time.

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Speaker 1: And then we have and then we have the thing

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Speaker 1: where people are maybe more famous in a specific field.

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Speaker 1: That's probably where I would put what we call instafluencers

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Speaker 1: or very very well known YouTubers who focus on a

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Speaker 1: specific thing, right, And of course we have to be honest.

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Speaker 1: Podcasters fall in that. There are some, there are some

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Speaker 1: maybe they count as capital F famous people who are

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Speaker 1: also podcasters, but they're not famous for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense thinking about Will Ferrell right there.

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Speaker 1: Oh that's right, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he'll get into

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Speaker 1: podcasts right now, I think it's just Ron Burgundy.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: So. So it's strange, and it's also it's a bit

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Speaker 1: unsettling the idea or the notion of celebrity because it

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Speaker 1: places hierarchical value on people in a way that should

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Speaker 1: not really exist. Absolutely, So, with all that in mind,

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Speaker 1: if we do a very broad definition, if we sort

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Speaker 1: of mash up those kind of known in their field

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Speaker 1: people and the worldwide known people, you know, the Michael

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Speaker 1: Jackson's and so on. If you smash them all together

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Speaker 1: into one thing. We can ask ourselves how many people

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Speaker 1: in this world, in one way or another would be

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Speaker 1: considered famous. It's really really tough to tell. Some, like

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Speaker 1: you said, Matt, are known worldwide as a kind of

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Speaker 1: eternal position, like the pope changes, but everybody is aware

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Speaker 1: of the idea of the pope. Yeah, the pope is

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Speaker 1: very very well known, not always very very popular, but

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Speaker 1: very very well known. And some people are known more

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Speaker 1: in their field of expertise. What's someone who would be

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Speaker 1: really specific field of expertise?

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Speaker 2: We know, I'm thinking of scientists a lot of times,

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Speaker 2: or like perhaps an FBI investigator that is known in

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Speaker 2: the true crime world and or the law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: Feel great, okay, I've got one. How about Nobel Prize winners.

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Speaker 1: So there's an American astrophysicist, John C. Mather, who essentially

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Speaker 1: proved that the Big Bang was real, not just the theory.

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Speaker 1: He is very well known in his field. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: you know, it's difficult because if you ask the average

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Speaker 1: this is not a ding on the average person. If

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Speaker 1: you ask the average person name your two favorite astrophysicists,

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Speaker 1: they might have a tough time. Yeah, because most people's

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Speaker 1: conversations are not going to relate to that on a

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Speaker 1: day to day basis. So we have experts in their field,

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Speaker 1: we have worldwide famous, and then we have some infamous

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Speaker 1: people like the child molester Jeffrey Epstein. Oh, hey, it's

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Speaker 1: not alleged. We don't have to say alleged.

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Speaker 2: Let's do an anti shout out to you, Jeffrey Epstein

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Speaker 2: for possibly actually facing charges and going to jail. Maybe

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Speaker 2: this time.

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Speaker 1: Will we'll see. I think at this point the money

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Speaker 1: matters less than the potential co conspirators who could be indicted.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't want to be too skeptical

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Speaker 1: about it, but it's just so well rare for people

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Speaker 1: at that level to go to jail.

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Speaker 2: And especially after what happened last time that we have

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Speaker 2: a whole episode on about if you're interested, but beware

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Speaker 2: you will throw things as you're listening.

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Speaker 1: To it, right, And maybe it'll be like the Westminster

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Speaker 1: the Westminster child abuse circle where they tossed out a

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Speaker 1: few scapegoats posthumously. Yeah, and then the people who are

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Speaker 1: implicated were also the people investigating it and nothing ever changed.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I you know, hope springs Eternal anyway,

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Speaker 1: So we've got those people infamous, the villains, the well

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Speaker 1: known experts in their field, the worldwide. Everybody knows who

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Speaker 1: that is kind of people. How do we tell how

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Speaker 1: many people in the world are those sorts of folks?

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Speaker 2: Well, we have some help here in this quest, even

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Speaker 2: if it's not the perfect examination of it, it's it's

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Speaker 2: getting us somewhere. Right. There's this mathematician named Samuel Arbsman

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Speaker 2: who who took a pretty interesting approach in back in

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Speaker 2: twenty thirteen. He looked at Wikipedia and they have this

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Speaker 2: thing on there called living People. It's a category in

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Speaker 2: which you can kind of search and navigate through. And

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Speaker 2: at the time that the count in twenty thirteen, the

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Speaker 2: number of living people was just over six hundred thousand,

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Speaker 2: six hundred and four than one hundred and seventy four.

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Speaker 2: And he, you know, he even admitted when with his

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Speaker 2: own study and everything he was doing, that Wikipedia's notability

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Speaker 2: standard was pretty low as when it came to like

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Speaker 2: who is famous, who is not famous? Who is worthy

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Speaker 2: of being on Wikipedia?

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Speaker 1: Right, some of our coworkers are in Wikipedia. I don't

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Speaker 1: think we are, but so our coworkers.

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Speaker 2: Are, Yeah, we are not. Josh and Chuck. I believe

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Speaker 2: we're on there, and I think maybe Holly and Tracy.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense. The question here is how many of

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Speaker 1: these over six hundred thousand people has everyone heard of?

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Speaker 1: Could one person have heard of them all? That is doubtful.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just.

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Speaker 1: So many people. But with this in mind, we can

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Speaker 1: at least, as Arbsman puts it, get a hint of understanding.

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Speaker 1: We can we can get a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: spider sense or a guestimate about how common fame is

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Speaker 1: in the world. And so here's how his shortcut works.

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Speaker 1: He divided the famous people count by the global population

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Speaker 1: in twenty thirteen, which was seven point h six billion, approximately,

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Speaker 1: and then with that math he got the number of

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Speaker 1: point zero zero eighty six percent, so much less than

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Speaker 1: one percent, which is probably good for everybody's sanity, right,

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Speaker 1: and probably bad for the celebrity stalker industry, but you know,

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Speaker 1: they're just gonna have to deal with it. This number

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Speaker 1: is not ironclad by any means, but it's still pretty

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Speaker 1: fascinating because it tells us when we're talking about possible

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Speaker 1: celebrity doppelgangers, we're also talking about a very small subset

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Speaker 1: of an already very tiny slice of humanity, and based

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Speaker 1: on that fact alone, we might think initially, we might

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Speaker 1: think it would be easy to spot an impersonator or

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Speaker 1: a replacement. You know, there's someone saying, I am the

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Speaker 1: number one Carly ray Jepson fan. Is that a person?

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Speaker 2: I think so. I don't know who it is, but

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Speaker 2: I've heard that name before.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so someone loves this person, Carl ray Jepson. They say,

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Speaker 1: I've got all of her albums or videos, whatever she's

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Speaker 1: done it. If it's in the public sphere, then I

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Speaker 1: have it, says the super fan. So I would notice

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Speaker 1: immediately change even if those filthy, casual Carly ray Jepson

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Speaker 1: fans don't understand the magnitude of my work. Then we

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Speaker 1: could go a bit further and assume the average living

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Speaker 1: celebrity will tend to be photographed and filmed more often

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Speaker 1: than the average non celebrity.

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Speaker 2: Right, yeah, I mean it would have to be, or

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Speaker 2: would it. Yes. So a lot of the things we've

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Speaker 2: been discussing thus far are our assumptions. We're making assumptions

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Speaker 2: based on evidence and numbers and our own experiences, but

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Speaker 2: they are assumptions. But really, think about it. If we're

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Speaker 2: talking about the current president, or any president, or maybe

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Speaker 2: some daytime news hosts. Many, many famous people have entire

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Speaker 2: groups of people, teams who are controlling their images. They

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Speaker 2: have offices built around managing the icon that is their

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Speaker 2: very own celebrity, that is a pr little gem or

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Speaker 2: something that they get to show around. And it may

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Speaker 2: actually be easier for a celebrity to be replaced because

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Speaker 2: in many ways they've already been replaced by all of

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Speaker 2: these images of themselves, these versions, these virtual versions of

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Speaker 2: themselves that are out there. Sure, you know, they've had

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Speaker 2: different haircuts over you know, the time that they've been famous.

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Speaker 2: They wear a lot of different outfits, They go to

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Speaker 2: all these different places and do different things.

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Speaker 1: Celebrities, Yeah, I think it's a good point. Hon of

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Speaker 1: celebrities are more tightly controlled than one might imagine. When

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Speaker 1: we say replaced, we don't necessarily mean somebody's cutting off

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Speaker 1: their fingers one by one and sticking other people's fingers

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Speaker 1: on their hands, but that would be interesting.

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Speaker 2: They live by scripts a lot of times, right, even

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Speaker 2: if it's not their own intention.

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Speaker 1: Like their words may not be their own. Their words

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Speaker 1: may be written by publicists or speech writers or social

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Speaker 1: media gurus. Their candids are often carefully orchestrated by professional photographers,

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Speaker 1: and their trends and attitudes or their public stances may

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Speaker 1: be dictated by deep dive marketing research indicating the most

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Speaker 1: attention grabbing responses, opinions, or hot takes of the day.

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Speaker 2: Or for some movie that they're about to put out,

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Speaker 2: they have to say certain things or be careful not

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Speaker 2: to say other things.

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Speaker 1: So it might not be as difficult for a celebrity

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Speaker 1: to be taken out and replaced. It might not be

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Speaker 1: as difficult as it initially sounds, because let's admit it

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Speaker 1: sounds kind of out there. But the question today is

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Speaker 1: could it really happen? Could some celebrity known around the

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Speaker 1: world actually be replaced? And if so, how and if

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Speaker 1: so why?

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Speaker 2: And we're going to talk about that after a quick

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Speaker 2: word from our sponsor.

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Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy. We were talking about this

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Speaker 1: earlier off air. Body doubles are real.

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Speaker 2: This stuff happened, yeah, oh for real, in in two places.

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Speaker 2: And the first one is one that you already know about.

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Speaker 2: There are body doubles in Hollywood in filmmaking, for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, good call.

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Speaker 2: When when you're thinking about stunt doubles and stand ins.

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Speaker 2: There are there are people whose job it is to

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Speaker 2: look like a celebrity and either stand in light to

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Speaker 2: make sure that it looks good with the costume or something.

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Speaker 2: And then also people who get paid to do very dangerous,

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Speaker 2: sometimes terrifying things, and they look like at least similar to.

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Speaker 1: A celebrity exactly, and they're but they're publicly acknowledged.

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Speaker 2: They're publicly acknowledged, but you won't know who they are

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Speaker 2: unless you're a huge fan of stunt doubles or you

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Speaker 2: know a person of a celebrity and also know their

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Speaker 2: stunt double or team of stunt doubles. But but in

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Speaker 2: there's another case here in it's politics, and that's when

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Speaker 2: you have a huge state actor, a figure that's known really,

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Speaker 2: really well, but is also in danger of being assassinated

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Speaker 2: or at least harmed.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, So one of the most famous cases would

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Speaker 1: be Joseph Stalin. He was a real pill. He implemented

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Speaker 1: controversial plots against citizens of the Soviet Union, even ministers

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Speaker 1: and folks who are in his inner.

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Speaker 2: Circle, the place that he was the leader.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, people who opposed him were executed after a

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Speaker 1: fake trial on a good day. Other days they just disappeared,

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Speaker 1: and we mean disappeared from history. They were removed from

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Speaker 1: official photographs, real devious stuff. Stalin increased the role of

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Speaker 1: the Soviet secret police as he became the absolute power

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Speaker 1: in the thirties, and it made sense for him to

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Speaker 1: use these political decoys because he was protecting himself from

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Speaker 1: his growing list of enemies. We don't know how many

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Speaker 1: body doubles he had. He definitely had more than one.

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Speaker 1: We know about two for sure. One was a double

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Speaker 1: named Rashid, and he was dismissed from the army because

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Speaker 1: he looked too much like Stalin. He went home, a

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Speaker 1: government agent came to recruit him, and he became a

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Speaker 1: sit in for the dictator at meetings and banquets. Somehow

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Speaker 1: he survived being in close proximity to Stalin, and he

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Speaker 1: died in nineteen ninety one at the ripe old age

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Speaker 1: of ninety three. So well done, Rashid, good job staying alive.

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Speaker 1: We also, I do have to mention, we also have

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Speaker 1: a episode of ridiculous history that's entirely about body doubles

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Speaker 1: in the political sphere. So it always into a little

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Speaker 1: bit more of this. But he is again just one

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Speaker 1: of Stalin's body doubles. There's one that's a little more

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Speaker 1: well known.

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Speaker 2: I would say, oh, yeah, somebody, how do you say

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Speaker 2: his name, Felix Dadev Dadeese.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So you can head on over and listen to

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Speaker 2: that episode of Ridiculous History now, or you can hear

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Speaker 2: this abridged version right now.

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Speaker 1: Oh, this is one small fact about Dadyev. He was

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Speaker 1: so good that in nineteen forty five he was flown

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Speaker 1: to Yalta and he met with President Roosevelt and Prime

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Speaker 1: Minister Churchill, whoa after the after the during the post

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Speaker 1: war organ reorganization.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha, was it was it as the double?

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Speaker 1: It was Stalin? They thought they.

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Speaker 2: Thought he was Stalin.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, which I mean, well done. Right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So this is one example. But then we also have

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Speaker 1: the examples from the Middle East, most famously Iraq.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Saddam Hussein and one of his sons were really

436
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 2: really big big body double fans. Let's see, let's see,

437
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 2: we've got some quotes here that come from inverse. This

438
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,800
Speaker 2: is the late Iraqi dictator reportedly employed a roster of

439
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 2: body doubles. When you know, when he was ruling. And

440
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 2: when we say roster here, we're not talking about one

441
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 2: or two really good body doubles. We're talking about a dozen, dozens,

442
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,359
Speaker 2: perhaps of people who looked similarly enough to him that

443
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 2: they were employed throughout his rule.

444
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 1: Right. He was a prolific fan of body doubles, and

445
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: people would observe this, keep a very very close eye

446
00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: on it, especially his tensions were ratcheting up in that

447
00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:34,920
Speaker 1: part of the world, and they would they would read

448
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 1: some more or less kind of read tea leaves and

449
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: try to interpret smaller clues like the way his bodyguards acted.

450
00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: You know, did they act differently around the true dictator

451
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:51,880
Speaker 1: than they did around his body double. Saddam was reportedly

452
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:54,880
Speaker 1: possessed of a little bit of an ego. Yeah, and

453
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 1: he was a big fan of close ups, and so

454
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:00,399
Speaker 1: people began to think, well, if he doesn't get his

455
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: close up in during one of his many speeches and proclamations,

456
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,679
Speaker 1: that means it's a body double. People are so worried

457
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: about this that in two thousand and three, when he

458
00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: was captured, then Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld had to

459
00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 1: like go out and address concerns that they may have

460
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 1: nabbed at decoy and was you know, they were figuring

461
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: out ways to determine whether this was the real Saddam

462
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 1: Mussin and this practice continued.

463
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,199
Speaker 2: Oh and just to jump in there, I remember in

464
00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,640
Speaker 2: two thousand and three when Saddam was captured, thinking that's

465
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 2: not the real Saddam Hussein. And I was very skeptical

466
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: of it. But I didn't I didn't know. I wasn't

467
00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 2: thinking about it at that level at this point, but

468
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: I was aware just through pop culture that that Saddam

469
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,960
Speaker 2: Mussein did employ body doubles.

470
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: And his oldest son, Oude Hussein was a monster, and

471
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 1: that doesn't have anything to do with his practice. It

472
00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,160
Speaker 1: looks like he learned from dear old dad and and

473
00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 1: he started using body doubles as well. There was a

474
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,399
Speaker 1: guy named Latif who said he went to school with

475
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: Ude Hussang and in nineteen eighty eight he was enlisted

476
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 1: to be Uday's body double non consensually.

477
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, because in Iraq there's this mandatory thing where you

478
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 2: have to join the military when you reach a certain age,

479
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 2: and Uday's body double was basically told, yeah, you are

480
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,439
Speaker 2: going to join as Ude, and that's it.

481
00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 1: That's what's what that's what's happening. Yeah, and the guy

482
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: who was Uday's body double survived, escaped to rock and

483
00:28:39,040 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 1: there was even a movie made about his story called

484
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 1: The Devil's Double.

485
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, yeah, he is one man, the

486
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 2: person that we're talking about. Sure, and he had some

487
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: stories to tell. He had a lot of claims and

488
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: it's difficult to you know, back a lot of that

489
00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: up with hard facts. But again, this is a person

490
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 2: who expec sperienced them and then his claiming to have

491
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: experienced them. But he said he got shot over twenty

492
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 2: five times twenty how many times?

493
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: Twenty six times?

494
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: Twenty six times while he was impersonating the son of

495
00:29:12,440 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 2: the Iraqi dictator as well as something else crazy.

496
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:16,680
Speaker 1: Oh.

497
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,240
Speaker 2: He was describing Ouday as essentially someone who was off

498
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 2: his rocker.

499
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, incredibly violent and enjoyed torturing people, like really

500
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: enjoyed it.

501
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 2: And you know, it's tough because that's one person's opinion.

502
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: I don't know enough about him. I've seen other documentation

503
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 2: of other people claiming very similar things, so I'm inclined

504
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 2: to believe it.

505
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 1: Okay, that's very fair of you. I just want to

506
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: go on record he did Yeah, torture be abominable, unforgivable things.

507
00:29:54,920 --> 00:30:00,560
Speaker 1: We're talking repeat sexual assault. We're talking murdering people for

508
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: them for the thrill of it, like the old Diet

509
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 1: coke commercial jingle. It's not surprising that he would have

510
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,000
Speaker 1: a body double because there were many, many people who

511
00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: wanted him dead for his many many atrocities. Okay, it's

512
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: just it's like to the point where it's a lot

513
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 1: of work for one dude.

514
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: Oh, dude, I hear you for me. It's trusting. You know,

515
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: any Western source that would say that about somebody you

516
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 2: know like that?

517
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: I see a really good point.

518
00:30:31,280 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 2: It's it's hard for me to know where the line

519
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 2: is of what's true because I don't I don't disbelieve

520
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: that he did some pretty terrible things.

521
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, I see, But was it exaggerated for propaganda purposes

522
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: and so on? It's a good question. Uh. There is

523
00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 1: another question that we should address, which is how many

524
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: more suspected body doubles are out there? According to Joe R. Reader,

525
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,040
Speaker 1: who is a former undersecretary for the US Army, in

526
00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: two thousand and one, he said that many many world

527
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: leaders had used body doubles to escape capture. He said

528
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden used body doubles man Well Noriega, Fidel

529
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: Castro and more. And there were even rumors that Hitler

530
00:31:15,240 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: used a body double to escape death. That is a

531
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 1: story for another day.

532
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: I think, oh, we've got I'm pretty sure a whole

533
00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 2: episode on that. Check it out if you're if you're

534
00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 2: interested it, it's pretty compelling. I don't know, Argentina.

535
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: I mean, yeh, Nazi Nazi Party members did escape there

536
00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: through the rat lines, right, they certainly did. So. We

537
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 1: also know that body doubles were used in ancient times,

538
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 1: not even really in ancient times. They were used up

539
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 1: until the widespread dissemination of photography right and av equipment,

540
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,480
Speaker 1: So it became easier to say, oh, no, no, no, no,

541
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: I've seen a picture of the emperor. Yeah, and you

542
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 1: do not talk like him, you do not look like him, You, sir,

543
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: are an impostor.

544
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, basically, any way to record image or sound, right,

545
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: because if you're just dealing with an illustration and a

546
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:19,960
Speaker 2: written document, even that has quotations or something in it,

547
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: that's the only way to know the even the president

548
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:28,440
Speaker 2: like George Washington. Imagine how many people in the United

549
00:32:28,440 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: States actually saw George Washington, and then most of what

550
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 2: people in the public knew of him throughout the world

551
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:43,080
Speaker 2: were paintings, Yeah, illustrations, paintings, any image of him that

552
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 2: was just created from another person's imagination through looking at

553
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: him exactly.

554
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:51,520
Speaker 1: And now that we have access to these amazing surveillance

555
00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:56,239
Speaker 1: devices called smartphones, yeah, it's very very easy to not

556
00:32:56,440 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 1: only take pictures of people, but to find pictures of people,

557
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: and they don't have to be famous. So it seems

558
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: like we're back to square one. How would you effectively

559
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 1: fool people if you were a politician and athlete, a musician,

560
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: an actor, and so on and so on. In this

561
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 1: world where it's much easier to verify this, it turns

562
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: out that the same technology that made body doubles and

563
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: impersonations more difficult for a time may make it much easier.

564
00:33:27,840 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: And we'll we'll explore why after a word from our sponsor.

565
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 1: All Right, that's a bit of a bait and switch,

566
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: because we have to get to celebrity body doubles. This

567
00:33:46,480 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: is the meat of what we are. This is the

568
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: meat of the conspiracy burger. Okay, I didn't eat lunch today.

569
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: I'm just these are all going to be food comparisons.

570
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 2: Me neither, and I'm right there with you. I would

571
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: like to add some Bieber bacon on top of whatever

572
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 2: this sandwich slash hamburger we're creating here. And really, there's

573
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:15,680
Speaker 2: an entire industry out there of people impersonating celebrities. Really yeah,

574
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: and it's what we were talking about right before the

575
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:22,440
Speaker 2: break to your your phone, Instagram, Facebook, social media. On

576
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:25,800
Speaker 2: the streets of New York City, there are people in

577
00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 2: La my god, just everywhere. There are people who impersonate

578
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,680
Speaker 2: singers and go do shows. There are people who impersonate

579
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 2: actors and do events.

580
00:34:36,960 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: There are people who impersonate fictional characters. I have some

581
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 1: pretty good friends.

582
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 2: Who impersonate Bill Murray.

583
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 1: Not yet, okay, no I had I think that was

584
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: just him. I think that was Bill.

585
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: Oh really, no one.

586
00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: Will ever believe us, I know, but I know some

587
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:01,880
Speaker 1: people who, for instance, appear at functions, children's parties and

588
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: stuff as you know, Cinderella or as snow White or something.

589
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 1: I also have friends who do this, yeah, and that

590
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: that seems like a really wholesome gig. We're not talking

591
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: about those kind of impersonators. We're not talking about someone

592
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: who is doing a spot on kiss cover band or something.

593
00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: We're talking about impersonators who replace celebrities in a way

594
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: for the purposes of crime. And this goes back to

595
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: the Bieber bacon that you mentioned earlier. Yeah, more of

596
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: a bi burrito, right it.

597
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: Is a Yeah, the bi burrito comes after the bacon.

598
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 2: So the bacon is actually it's terrible to call that

599
00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 2: because I'm a big fan of bacon. Big ups to you, Bacon,

600
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 2: just for existing and being and even though you're terrible

601
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 2: for me and for the environment and all of those things,

602
00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,319
Speaker 2: thank you for providing your oils with which to cook

603
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 2: other things. Okay, let's just go to get on here.

604
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 2: So you may love Justin Bieber, you may loath him

605
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 2: either way. There's no denying that this guy, the image

606
00:36:11,920 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 2: of him, his voice, everything about him is extremely extremely popular,

607
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,840
Speaker 2: and specifically with younger women, younger girls, teenage girls in particular.

608
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:27,439
Speaker 2: And there's this man named Leem wirmi R. He's thirty,

609
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: he was thirty four years old, and he really capitalized

610
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 2: on Justin Bieber's popularity, and not in a good way.

611
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 1: No, he would pretend to be this teenager Justin Bieber

612
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: online and he would talk to teenage fans, and he

613
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:56,520
Speaker 1: would start hounding them for money and then explicit sexual

614
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,359
Speaker 1: videos of themselves. If they didn't send him money, then

615
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 1: he would say that he was going to post their

616
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:09,200
Speaker 1: videos online. This guy's an uber creep, and you have

617
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,880
Speaker 1: to imagine how emotionally traumatizing that is. You're a huge

618
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: super fan, it's your favorite singer, you have, like maybe

619
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: it's your first crush or something, and you think that

620
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:24,240
Speaker 1: this person is asking you, an underage person, a child,

621
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: for what nude videos or something. And then for some reason,

622
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 1: this guy has got to be at least a multi millionaire,

623
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:33,720
Speaker 1: is shaking you down for cash.

624
00:37:34,160 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, hopefully, you know, you'd think that someone would recognize that.

625
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: But again, that kind of fog of celebrity, it's.

626
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: Powerful, right, and some people start successful criminal careers by

627
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:54,479
Speaker 1: rinsing and repeating this sort of tactic. There's an person

628
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,839
Speaker 1: here named Emma Charlton who posed as a Vanity Fair

629
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 1: editor and a winterer, the one occurs in that film

630
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: The Devilwaar's Product. So Charleton tricked this guy into falling

631
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: in love marrying her, and then she just robbed him blind.

632
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: It turned out she had a long history of impersonating

633
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: other people, some famous and fleecing, fleecing various dudes that

634
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: thought they were in love with her. So those are

635
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:26,640
Speaker 1: pretty dark. That's still not quite what we're what we're

636
00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:31,439
Speaker 1: getting at, right, Let's let's go to something a little

637
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: bit softer just for a second, right, because people also

638
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,240
Speaker 1: impersonate celebrities for the purpose of pranking.

639
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, there was there was this thing that occurred

640
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:48,760
Speaker 2: back in twenty eighteen where this picture of Justin Bieber

641
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 2: was going all around the internet. I think we may

642
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,080
Speaker 2: have mentioned it in passing before on this show.

643
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 1: This is what I meant by bieber Rito, Yes, exactly.

644
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,839
Speaker 2: Where it was a photograph of Justin Bieber wearing a hat, sunglasses,

645
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,759
Speaker 2: and a hoodie and he was eating a burrito from

646
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: the center of the burrito rather than at one of

647
00:39:08,200 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: the ends. And it was supposedly taken by some passerby

648
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 2: while Justin Bieber was enjoying a burrito, just out in

649
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 2: the park somewhere, and it got retweeted so many, like

650
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 2: I don't even know exactly how many times, thousands and

651
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: thousands of times. It was posted on all kinds of

652
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 2: different blogs, and it became I guess a trending thing

653
00:39:29,960 --> 00:39:32,320
Speaker 2: that was occurring. But it turned out that it was

654
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 2: literally just some pranksters that were pretending to be Justin

655
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 2: Bieber and that's all it was the entire time. But

656
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:43,800
Speaker 2: you think that you'd think that with the number of

657
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: people who know who this kid is. Who are this

658
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 2: guy Justin Bieber? I guess he's a bit older now,

659
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 2: but who know who he is? They know exactly what

660
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,640
Speaker 2: he looks like. You'd think that somebody somewhere would have

661
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 2: figured out that that wasn't him. It didn't happen until

662
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: these guys posted a YouTube video explaining exactly what they

663
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 2: did and how they did it.

664
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: Wow, weird. I guess the reaction was just so attention

665
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:10,439
Speaker 1: grabbing right.

666
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 2: Well, and think about this around you, on your social media,

667
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,400
Speaker 2: whatever you're using, everyone is believing that this is an

668
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: actual picture of Justin Bieber. So you almost don't even

669
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,839
Speaker 2: question or you don't question it whatsoever. You just take

670
00:40:24,840 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: it for granted. Oh that's Justin Bieber. That's weird.

671
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:29,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna be honest with you, Matt. I'm just gonna

672
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:31,720
Speaker 1: lay it all out on the table. I can confess

673
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:35,080
Speaker 1: to you. I no ding on the guy, but I

674
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 1: am not typically in a situation where my Bieber count

675
00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: is very very low on a day to day basis.

676
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 2: Oh, you have your encounters with the Beebes. The Beebes, Yeah,

677
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: is that a thing? The Beebster I don't know. I

678
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 2: don't know be Justin Oh.

679
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: All right, well, you know, I wish him the best

680
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: the luck in his career because it's tough work to

681
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:03,080
Speaker 1: be a musician.

682
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:06,680
Speaker 2: I'll tell you this, tremendous respect for Justin Bieber on

683
00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 2: this side over here. Even though he did he caught

684
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: up doing a lot of things that has been That's

685
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: a little kid that has been fighting through the music

686
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 2: industry since he was a little kid.

687
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: That's so very kind of you. I mean, come on,

688
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:25,320
Speaker 1: I don't have a statement because I just don't know

689
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,759
Speaker 1: much about it. But we see how even a very

690
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: well known person can be can be impersonated very deluiously.

691
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 1: It doesn't it doesn't matter how famous you are. Maybe

692
00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: to your point about social media, it could make it easier.

693
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: Now we get to the stuff that people will tend

694
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,840
Speaker 1: to dismiss out of hand. What if a celebrity was

695
00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: not consensually impersonated, right, What if they were murdered and

696
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: replaced somehow taken out. This brings us to twenty fifteen

697
00:41:55,160 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 1: when buzzfeeds Ryan Broderick found a Brazilian blog called Avril

698
00:42:01,160 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: is Dead, referring to the musician Avril Levine. The idea

699
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 1: is in the blog now. Avril Levine got famous in

700
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: the early two thousands, and then she was emotionally overwhelmed.

701
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:18,040
Speaker 1: Her grandfather passed away and she died by suicide right

702
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,919
Speaker 1: after the release of her first album, which was called

703
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 1: let Go. Oddly enough, according to this theory, the record company,

704
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: the record label did not let Go because the first

705
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: album was so successful. They said, Okay, we can just

706
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: get someone who looks kind of like her, a doppelganger,

707
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 1: and keep the machine going, keep the money coming. In

708
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 1: a little while later, Avril Levine finally addressed this idea,

709
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: and she said in an interview on an Australian radio

710
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: station KIS ten sixty five for anyone interested, nice the

711
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,600
Speaker 1: host aster, did you laugh at the rumors that went

712
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:58,800
Speaker 1: around where you no longer exist and there's a clone

713
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 1: of you, to which Aril applies. Yes, some people think

714
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: that I'm not the real me, which is so weird,

715
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 1: Like why would they even think that. For supporters of

716
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 1: this theory, there, you know, you're probably white knuckled right

717
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:12,879
Speaker 1: now with your hands on the steering wheel or whatever,

718
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: and you're saying, of course, that's what the clone would

719
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: say that the actor would say.

720
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:25,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. But you know, as weird as it sounds,

721
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:31,000
Speaker 2: imagine just put yourself in the shoes of some record company.

722
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 2: Now this is gonna sound weird, but just imagine this.

723
00:43:35,520 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: You're the head of a record label. You just had

724
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 2: one of the most popular albums ever come out, or

725
00:43:42,640 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: at least within the past like a couple of years,

726
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: come out on your label, and it's this one singer

727
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,680
Speaker 2: songwriter that is gonna make you. You know, they've made

728
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: you millions of dollars. They're gonna make you millions and

729
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 2: millions of dollars with their next album and everything. What

730
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,880
Speaker 2: if that person dies and it's kept quiet enough to

731
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:05,880
Speaker 2: where you think, well, maybe we can put out another album.

732
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,320
Speaker 2: I mean, that's insane to think about.

733
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 1: Like, what would you do given the opportunity right now?

734
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 2: Exactly, you already have millions of dollars, you're going you're

735
00:44:15,160 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: set to make millions more, tens of millions of dollars.

736
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 2: What would you do to continue that money flowing in?

737
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's one of those age old questions.

738
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 2: Why do powerful, old rich people do some of the

739
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 2: things that they get accused of and sometimes convicted for sure? Anyway,

740
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,440
Speaker 2: so it goes to Black Mirror. Have you seen Season

741
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:36,320
Speaker 2: five Black Mirror?

742
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 1: Yes?

743
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: So there are only three episodes, but one of them

744
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 2: features Miley Cyrus and in it she plays a pop

745
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:47,520
Speaker 2: star called Ashley Oh. And this pop star spoilers by

746
00:44:47,560 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 2: the way ahead right after this.

747
00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: Cow down three two one spoilers.

748
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 2: So she gets placed in a medically induced coma by

749
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,919
Speaker 2: her management team essentially her aunt and some other people

750
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: working for her, and then they want to replace this

751
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 2: pop star with an AI. Essentially it's called Ashley Too,

752
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 2: but it's created from this weird, little, compartmentalized, pr friendly

753
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:13,879
Speaker 2: version of Ashley Oh's personality.

754
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, but the the hardware they start off with is

755
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 1: I very rarely use this word, but it's kind of cute.

756
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: Oh the little tiny Yeah, No, I agreed, But in

757
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,920
Speaker 2: this case they're going to make use of holograms and

758
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:35,560
Speaker 2: Ashley Oh's personality to basically replace the pop star completely.

759
00:45:35,960 --> 00:45:39,280
Speaker 2: And it feels a lot like this story with Avril Levine,

760
00:45:39,440 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 2: like to continue the money flowing in, they would do

761
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 2: whatever they needed to do to make this person at

762
00:45:47,760 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: least seem real.

763
00:45:49,400 --> 00:45:53,399
Speaker 1: Right, right, and they would be able to apply near

764
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:54,759
Speaker 1: future technology.

765
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's you know, but it's not the first

766
00:45:57,600 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 2: time some pop star has been, you know, so accused

767
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:02,360
Speaker 2: of being not the.

768
00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: Real one, right, that's correct. This one is for you, Diana,

769
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: although working with us on that previous video, I'm pretty

770
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 1: sure you know all of all of this already, that's right.

771
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: September nineteen sixty nine, a rumor that Paul McCartney, famed

772
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: member of the Beatles, had died, began spreading across college

773
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 1: campuses in the States. These rumors expanded. There was a

774
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: snowball aggregate effect because people felt they were finding more

775
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,840
Speaker 1: and more clues hidden in album covers and in Beatles songs,

776
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: and clue hunting was infectious, addictive, and fun. Within a

777
00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: few weeks, this blows up and its global for most people.

778
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: This craze was short lived, and Paul McCartney, if it

779
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:54,399
Speaker 1: is him, has an interview where he says, no, I've

780
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: been taking some family time. I've been in Scotland, Kenya,

781
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 1: places like that go off the grid.

782
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 2: Because you know, I'm massively rich, yeah, and I can

783
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:05,960
Speaker 2: just go places like that.

784
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: John Lennon is very stressful to work with. That's pretty obvious.

785
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, yeah, I know McCartney also has his quirks.

786
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:19,440
Speaker 1: Sure, sure, that's true.

787
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: Just to give John Lennon the benefit of a doubt, okay.

788
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: Right, right, I mean right, that's that's true. Well, McCartney, though,

789
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:29,480
Speaker 1: he has this interview in Life magazine where he's like,

790
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, very much alave whatever and to Scotland, and

791
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:41,840
Speaker 1: despite denying the rumors of the exaggerated rumors of his

792
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 1: death in a very Mark Twain esque way, McCartney still

793
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 1: had to confront these things. People said that he was

794
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,400
Speaker 1: a lookalike. His real name was William Shears Campbell or

795
00:47:54,840 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 1: William Shephard. William Campbell allegedly became Billy Shears on sarch Pepper,

796
00:48:01,680 --> 00:48:06,880
Speaker 1: and William Shephard was supposedly the inspiration behind the continuing

797
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 1: story of Bungalow Bill.

798
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:10,320
Speaker 2: That's awesome.

799
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 1: It's a weird one buckalo Bill.

800
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,839
Speaker 2: We listened to a lot of Beatles at my house.

801
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: Uh huh.

802
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 2: So all of this stuff rings so true to me. Ah,

803
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 2: I love it.

804
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:23,240
Speaker 1: So how did this how did this one start?

805
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:28,560
Speaker 2: Oh? There's an article it's called is Beadle Paul McCartney Dead?

806
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: And it was written September seventeenth, nineteen sixty nine this

807
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 2: gentleman named Tim Harper, who was the editor of the

808
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:39,799
Speaker 2: Drake Times Delphic. It was a student newspaper of Drake

809
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 2: University over in Des Moines, Iowa. Now, this article, it

810
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 2: addressed the rumor, essentially the rumor mill that was kind

811
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 2: of going around the school that all these clues, if

812
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,839
Speaker 2: you put them together, it means that Paul McCartney has

813
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,160
Speaker 2: somehow died. And let's let's look at some of these

814
00:48:57,960 --> 00:49:02,719
Speaker 2: messages here. So it include a message that says, turn

815
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 2: me on dead man. And this comes from the White

816
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,360
Speaker 2: album from the song Revolution nine. And it's when you

817
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,360
Speaker 2: play it backwards, it's that old backwards masking thing that

818
00:49:12,400 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 2: we've talked about before. And this apparently if you like

819
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: look at all of the rumors and the things that

820
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 2: were published, if you try trace it all the way back,

821
00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:25,360
Speaker 2: you get to this article, the.

822
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 1: One that we just mentioned in Iowa, right right right

823
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,600
Speaker 1: by Tim Harper. So according to music journalist Merrill Nowden.

824
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:35,640
Speaker 1: This was the first published work on the idea that

825
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:37,520
Speaker 1: Paul McCartney was dead.

826
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: Because of some backward masks lyrics, turn me on dead man.

827
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: It's weird, yeah, weird flex So we have let's do

828
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:45,880
Speaker 1: one more example.

829
00:49:45,960 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 2: What about Abby Road? He wasn't wearing shoes and he

830
00:49:48,440 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 2: was smoking.

831
00:49:49,040 --> 00:49:52,480
Speaker 1: What about Abby Road? I'm just saying, he standing with

832
00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 1: four people who all looked kind of alike. What you

833
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 1: gotta differentiate yourself just Paul, I.

834
00:49:58,760 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: Don't know, man. What about that car crash?

835
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: I don't know. He was in a car crash and

836
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: his many So I've got to say a lot of

837
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 1: people still think that is a fringe theory, among them

838
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 1: being the man who, as we record this podcast, claims

839
00:50:15,680 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 1: to be Paul McCartney. He would say he claims to

840
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 1: be that because he is Paul McCartney.

841
00:50:20,680 --> 00:50:21,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, he would.

842
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 1: I I am profoundly inspired by your commitment to this.

843
00:50:27,800 --> 00:50:31,200
Speaker 1: I know it's Do you seriously think it's the case?

844
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 2: No, I don't.

845
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 1: I will, I will. I will send you and Diana

846
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 1: on an adventure in a foreign country. If it turns

847
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: out that he is not really Paul McCartney.

848
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 2: Okay, accepted, deal. I will work, which work now will

849
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 2: be to prove that that is not Paul McCartney.

850
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 1: So we'll do one more before Diana put me in

851
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,840
Speaker 1: the poorhouse, and that is Taylor Swift. People, this is

852
00:51:00,880 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: a weird one. I found people were arguing, based entirely

853
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: on the photographs, that Taylor Swift is in fact the

854
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 1: clone of a former Satanic priestess. Yeah, as you do.

855
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: This dates back to twenty eleven, and people will say

856
00:51:15,600 --> 00:51:19,360
Speaker 1: that Swift is actually a clone of one Zena Levey,

857
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:22,160
Speaker 1: the daughter of the founder of the Church of Satan,

858
00:51:22,200 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: Anton LaVey.

859
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:23,319
Speaker 2: Whoa.

860
00:51:24,000 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 1: And there are a bunch of videos on YouTube comparing

861
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,399
Speaker 1: the two. I would suggest, I mean, take a look

862
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,600
Speaker 1: at them if you want. They don't look very similar.

863
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:35,840
Speaker 1: But a lot of that is interpretive and I.

864
00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:37,000
Speaker 2: The beholder and so on.

865
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: So right now, it doesn't seem that there's too much

866
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 1: sand to the idea that celebrities could be killed, replaced,

867
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:47,280
Speaker 1: or taken out. We're not quite at that black mirror

868
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 1: level yet.

869
00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:50,320
Speaker 2: At least not in person.

870
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: It is going to happen, though it's going to happen,

871
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 1: it's not gonna maybe happen in person, But we are

872
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 1: in the world of deep fakes. Is what is deep fake?

873
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 1: Aside from another episode.

874
00:52:03,000 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: Well, it's yeah. It's a way to digitally manipulate the

875
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 2: sound and image on you know, in digital photography and audio,

876
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 2: to make it seem as though a person, in this case,

877
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:20,959
Speaker 2: a celebrity or well known individual is saying or doing

878
00:52:21,160 --> 00:52:26,080
Speaker 2: something that they are actually not. And it's quite effective.

879
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 2: If you go back to twenty sixteen, I'm by the way,

880
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:34,239
Speaker 2: just watching Mister Robots season three, and back in season two,

881
00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:38,040
Speaker 2: they had just a quick little piece of video that

882
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 2: happens on a television screen where President Obama is talking

883
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 2: and he mentions one of the characters, Tyrrell Wellick and

884
00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 2: it at the time in twenty sixteen, I remember being

885
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 2: taken aback by it. I didn't understand, like, how did

886
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: they get the president to say that? Why would they

887
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 2: why would he agree to that? What do you pay

888
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 2: a president when he makes a quick little cameo?

889
00:53:04,719 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: At counterpoint, you don't pay presidents. You donate to their

890
00:53:07,680 --> 00:53:09,760
Speaker 1: foundation's charities and campaign funds.

891
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: There you go, there you go. No, I was perplexed

892
00:53:13,680 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 2: by it, and I remember I think we even I

893
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:19,320
Speaker 2: can't remember We mentioned it on the show a like

894
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 2: when it came out, but we have talked about it

895
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: since then, and you can see there are YouTube channels

896
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:31,560
Speaker 2: online with the deep fakes that are super just believable

897
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:38,120
Speaker 2: and scary, putting other people's faces on bodies, making those

898
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:42,839
Speaker 2: bodies say things, putting words into the mouths of other

899
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 2: people who are being interviewed. If you want to, let's

900
00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 2: just stay on the President Obama thing. If you go

901
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: to twenty eighteen, two years later, after the Mister Robots

902
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:55,440
Speaker 2: Season two thing, you go to this video that Jordan

903
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:59,920
Speaker 2: Peel made and he impersonated President Obama quite a bit

904
00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 2: in his career, or he continues to do that, but

905
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 2: for a while there was one of, you know, one

906
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:07,560
Speaker 2: of the funniest things he was doing, at least according

907
00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 2: to me, right, he nailed the voice, just so so

908
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 2: good with the voice. Well, he made a video in

909
00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:17,120
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen of him talking and a deep faked video

910
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 2: of President Obama saying all the things that Jordan Peele

911
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:23,160
Speaker 2: was saying. I remember that, yeah, And it was in

912
00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 2: warning to everyone that you have to really trust the

913
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 2: news sources that you look at. You have to trust

914
00:54:31,600 --> 00:54:34,759
Speaker 2: the videos you watch. Uh, huh, And it's becoming harder

915
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 2: and harder to do that.

916
00:54:35,880 --> 00:54:37,440
Speaker 1: I would say, ups, I always say you have to

917
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:38,440
Speaker 1: distrust more.

918
00:54:38,520 --> 00:54:41,800
Speaker 2: So, well, yeah, you have to trust the humans that

919
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:42,800
Speaker 2: are behind the thing.

920
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,080
Speaker 1: Right exactly, you have to trust the source or you

921
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: have to at least do your own due diligence on this.

922
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,640
Speaker 1: And Hollywood of course, very very excited over the moon

923
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:57,480
Speaker 1: about this. Can you imagine how much more affordable films

924
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 1: will become? Why would you need to pay whomever you know,

925
00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 1: like Julia Roberts or Idris Elba? What would you need

926
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:12,520
Speaker 1: to pay them millions and millions of dollars every time

927
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 1: you make a movie when you could just buy the

928
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:19,439
Speaker 1: rights to their likeness and their voice and then use

929
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:24,040
Speaker 1: deep fake technology. Holograms are there that they're pretty sophisticated,

930
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:25,879
Speaker 1: but we're not the point where they can replace human

931
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:26,879
Speaker 1: beings yet.

932
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:29,880
Speaker 2: Well, and at this point, almost all consumption occurs on

933
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:30,360
Speaker 2: our phones.

934
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 1: True. Also, I gotta go on this one pitch. You

935
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:38,200
Speaker 1: got to pitch one thing, Okay, So imagine we combine

936
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: deep fakes with AI kind of limited AI. This leads

937
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:49,480
Speaker 1: us to a strange place very very quickly. I have

938
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:54,040
Speaker 1: a prediction I predict that in the mid future, you know,

939
00:55:54,160 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 1: midterm futures. So it's completely possible that we could democratize

940
00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:04,799
Speaker 1: screenwriting and filmmaking in a very strange way, a way

941
00:56:04,960 --> 00:56:09,120
Speaker 1: that would not require more than one human being to

942
00:56:09,200 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: be involved. Imagine if you had something that was like

943
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:17,040
Speaker 1: Alexa or Siri or Google Home or whatever, and instead

944
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,400
Speaker 1: of just messing with audio, this would mess with audio

945
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: and visual. So you could just say to it. You

946
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: could say, hey, Google or Alexa, combine Police Academy for

947
00:56:30,320 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 1: and just name another film. Back to the Future three

948
00:56:34,440 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: and Back to the Future three. Just combine those together

949
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:40,280
Speaker 1: and make a film for me. And then this algorithm

950
00:56:40,320 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: would be able to write the script for that that

951
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:47,680
Speaker 1: combines these things, take the references from the other visual aspects,

952
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:52,160
Speaker 1: and combine those so that we would have something like,

953
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:54,960
Speaker 1: you know, back to the Police Academy four or back

954
00:56:55,000 --> 00:56:57,319
Speaker 1: to the Police Academy three, you know what I mean? Yeah,

955
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:01,000
Speaker 1: oh wow, or Police Academy to the you know, It's

956
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: completely possible, And then that means the only human being

957
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:09,080
Speaker 1: involved in that entire process once this technology exists is

958
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 1: the person who asks the question. And I think we're

959
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 1: on the way there. Wow, pretty pretty stunning stuff.

960
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's funny too, because all you'd have to do

961
00:57:20,880 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 2: is combine some of the top grossing films over the

962
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 2: past fifty years basically, and then you could just have

963
00:57:28,520 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: new hits and change the proper nouns.

964
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 1: And script writing is so formulaic. Yeah, any ways, for

965
00:57:34,800 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: a lot of those films. But it appears that at

966
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:41,880
Speaker 1: least for now, at least in the cases we've outlined,

967
00:57:41,880 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 1: there's no solid proof of celebrities being actively murdered and replaced.

968
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:53,320
Speaker 1: Yet we do see the numerous possibilities for replacement, if

969
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:58,439
Speaker 1: not assassination, and we do know that there are likely

970
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:04,760
Speaker 1: body doubles out there in other forms other I mean,

971
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: there's still bodies other forms or other applications would be

972
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 1: a better way to say it.

973
00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:12,040
Speaker 2: You know, I just have to say something here. I

974
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:16,320
Speaker 2: believe that a lot of these allegations that come up

975
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:22,880
Speaker 2: with body doubles, especially with celebrities who were younger women

976
00:58:23,240 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 2: at the time when they became celebrities, like your Taylor

977
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 2: Swift's and your Avril Levine's and all this, a lot

978
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:34,640
Speaker 2: of this feels like I don't want to say, I

979
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 2: don't know if it's body shaming, isn't the right term,

980
00:58:37,720 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 2: but the disbelief that a celebrity, especially a female celebrity,

981
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:46,600
Speaker 2: looks differently than she did when she was, you know,

982
00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 2: seventeen eighteen, whenever she became popular or younger, I think

983
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 2: has to do with our own perceptions of that and

984
00:58:56,480 --> 00:59:00,640
Speaker 2: how we've been manipulated by media to view women as

985
00:59:00,720 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 2: they age. Is that I feel like there's something there

986
00:59:05,280 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 2: because there's there's an interview with Avril Levine where she

987
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:10,720
Speaker 2: was being asked, you know, have you heard the rumors

988
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:13,280
Speaker 2: that you were replaced in everything that we were discussing.

989
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 2: In the images of her, she does not look like

990
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 2: she did at least in to whatever that whenever she

991
00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 2: was interviewed twenty sixteen or something. She does not look

992
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,240
Speaker 2: anything like the Avril Levine that we all grew up

993
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 2: watching on MTV. And it's just the nature of growing

994
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 2: up and changing. And I don't know, I feel like

995
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 2: there's something in there with the way we treat celebrities

996
00:59:35,080 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 2: and follow them over all of this time that maybe

997
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 2: we just lose sight of who the person is when

998
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 2: you're looking at them.

999
00:59:45,040 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: The fact that human beings age and change, Yeah, I

1000
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 1: don't see that, And that's our classic episode for this evening.

1001
00:59:54,720 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: We can't wait to hear your thoughts. It's right let

1002
00:59:56,600 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: us know what you think. You can reach to the

1003
00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 1: handle Conspiracy Stuff where we exist on Facebook x and YouTube,

1004
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 1: on Instagram and TikTok work Conspiracy Stuff Show.

1005
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,160
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1006
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:12,440
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1007
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1008
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:16,760
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1009
01:00:17,080 --> 01:00:18,600
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1010
01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 2: that voicemail. Why not instead send us a good old

1011
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:22,280
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1012
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:25,400
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1013
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,880
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1014
01:00:29,960 --> 01:00:33,400
Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com.

1015
01:00:52,560 --> 01:00:54,600
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1016
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:59,240
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1017
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,200
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