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Speaker 1: Welcome to pathology with doctor Priya. Listen, doctor, I appreciate

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Speaker 1: today because I want to go one own one with

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Speaker 1: you about the body and specifically when I get to

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Speaker 1: a murder scene and I am investigating and trying to

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Speaker 1: analyze this body, and then once you get it, how

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Speaker 1: we are a team at that point. Absolutely, So the

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Speaker 1: first thing I want to ask you, because whenever I

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Speaker 1: have a homicide scene, I'm first observing and trying to

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Speaker 1: make sure I don't miss anything. I try to really

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Speaker 1: make sure that I am looking at the clothing. I

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Speaker 1: want to know whether it's seasonally appropriate, is it snowing

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Speaker 1: outside and their barefoot with no shirt on? Are they

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Speaker 1: wearing any thing that might be religious or cultural or

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Speaker 1: belonging to a group. But I don't get to undress

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Speaker 1: them like you do, So I may not know whether

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Speaker 1: or not they're wearing underwear. I may not know certain

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Speaker 1: things about it, but I kind of really take some

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Speaker 1: time with clothing. Do you find that the same thing? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Absolutely?

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Speaker 3: So. You know, I had a unique sort of role

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Speaker 3: in my work as a medical examiner, and I think

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Speaker 3: that's added a lot to my practice now, which is

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Speaker 3: I used to go to crime scenes, not every single one,

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Speaker 3: but many over my career.

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Speaker 2: Anything suspicious, anything.

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Speaker 3: That's definitely a homicide and the body's still at the scene, okay,

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Speaker 3: or anything suspicious, So it can be you know, in

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Speaker 3: New England where there's a lot of water, like a

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Speaker 3: water scene or snow like even Karen read how they

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Speaker 3: were talking about John O'Keeffe. What didn't have I don't

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Speaker 3: think he had a code on, right, he had like

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Speaker 3: a shirt and pants if I recall, correct, you have.

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Speaker 1: A sweatshirt, correct, So I mean all of.

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Speaker 2: That comes into play.

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Speaker 3: And so before we even touch the body, what I'm

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Speaker 3: doing is observing, just like you said, what is happening?

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Speaker 3: Sort of an overall and then huh, there's my you know,

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Speaker 3: deceased person. What is going on with them? And you

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Speaker 3: know it can be anything from you know, are they

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Speaker 3: dressed appropriately for the weather?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: We've even had again water debts where there's barnacles and

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Speaker 3: the lecture I gave your crew, your team, I think

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Speaker 3: you remember someone had I had a body recovery from

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Speaker 3: water where there were like muscles growing on the person's jeans.

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Speaker 2: Right that really?

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Speaker 1: Oh I remember? Yes?

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Speaker 3: That not only tells me okay, the jeans are there,

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Speaker 3: but this person's been wearing them the whole time, and

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Speaker 3: now you know long enough that they're submerged with these crustaceans.

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Speaker 2: Growing on them.

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Speaker 3: I mean, all of that plays into it. Sometimes I

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Speaker 3: have handled clothing more delicately right at the scene and

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Speaker 3: given it as evidence right at the scene to police

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Speaker 3: because I had a body that was dragged and there

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Speaker 3: may be touch DNA right at the waistline of the pants,

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Speaker 3: like the waistband, the inside, you know, And so before

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Speaker 3: I was like, well, you know, he was shot multiple times,

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Speaker 3: and I said, this is going to become blood soaked

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Speaker 3: in the body bag. Can I give you the pants now?

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Speaker 3: Because I think that evidence was so important, overwhelmingly important,

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Speaker 3: you know, and it wouldn't change my autopsy analysis.

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Speaker 1: Right, And you know, we also have to look at

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Speaker 1: things like we're the blue jeans unzipped, were underwear missing?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I mean you know we're talking about men,

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Speaker 3: but women. You know, anybody basically unclothed, men or women,

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Speaker 3: I am very much likely to do a sex kit

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Speaker 3: on them, Like if they're unclothed at the waist below,

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Speaker 3: like you know, it has to be really uh you know,

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Speaker 3: my head tending say if you think of it, just

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Speaker 3: do it, because otherwise you're not going to have a

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Speaker 3: second chance. So basically like that, and you could not

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Speaker 3: run it, right if it turns out to be something else,

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Speaker 3: But right if clothing is displaced and we don't know

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Speaker 3: a lot about the case or it's you know, and

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Speaker 3: I don't like to make a lot of assumptions, right, like,

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Speaker 3: just collect everything and sort it out. So if you

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Speaker 3: and maybe I'm not at the scene, you know, and

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Speaker 3: you tell me the pants are on zipper and that's

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Speaker 3: how I receive the person, that's going to be a

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Speaker 3: red flag to.

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Speaker 1: Me, agreed, And you know, there could be anything. There

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Speaker 1: could be white powder. Well I don't know if that's cocaine.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's a leaning agent. So again

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Speaker 1: I'm going to let you know, this is what I

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Speaker 1: saw on the thigh exactly.

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Speaker 3: And I think you know when I taught you guys,

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Speaker 3: I had the interesting cases with the blue cleaning solution

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Speaker 3: that had stained It wasn't a suicide, but it was

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Speaker 3: toilet bowl cleaner that had been ingested on purpose suicide,

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Speaker 3: and that it was on the shirt. So collecting that shirt,

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Speaker 3: even if the bottle wasn't at the scene or the

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Speaker 3: scene had been cleaned up or something. That shirt with

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Speaker 3: the blue stain was going to be really important for

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Speaker 3: chemical analysis, right, like to show that it had landed

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Speaker 3: on the shirt too, and that could help me, you know,

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Speaker 3: for toxicology reasons put together the case.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk a little bit about clothing. When it

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Speaker 1: comes to stains. Most people think I'm only looking for blood,

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Speaker 1: but that's not true, not at all. So what kind

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Speaker 1: of stains are you looking for?

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Speaker 2: Anything?

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Speaker 3: So, you know, I think anything that's there that show

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Speaker 3: be there is worthy of evaluation.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And see, that's something that's so important because I had

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Speaker 1: a case where a young man had grass stains on

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Speaker 1: his jeans on one knee, his left knee and then

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Speaker 1: on the right side near his hip. It looked like

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Speaker 1: he had been drugged through the grass like righting, But

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Speaker 1: we found him on gravel.

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Speaker 2: Oh was it a body dump or something? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Right, So it quickly told me that was a secondary scene.

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Speaker 1: So again, when you and I are talking, that's something

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Speaker 1: I would tell you where he was found.

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Speaker 3: Right, right, I mean when I say body dump, that

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Speaker 3: sort of layman's terms, or you know, right on a

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Speaker 3: secondary scene like the body's been moved.

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Speaker 1: Yep.

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Speaker 3: So I mean this my brain is just an overdrive

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Speaker 3: here because I have so much to say about it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, honey, I'm gonna be quiet, and you go, well.

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Speaker 3: No, I mean it's that conversation. But I think, you know,

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Speaker 3: I think it's important. Like you know, so many things

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Speaker 3: come to play, right, Like you can have a body

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Speaker 3: recovery from that one case we talked about, which a

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Speaker 3: body was found in a trash trash yard.

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Speaker 2: Right, we had to.

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Speaker 3: Put together what was this person wearing, and then we

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Speaker 3: had to dump the garbage can recycling items to try

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Speaker 3: to put together receipts, Like we went through his pockets

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Speaker 3: and then we had to re see what evidence was

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Speaker 3: sort of associated with the clothing in and around him,

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Speaker 3: and we realized that this was an alcoholic that had

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Speaker 3: fallen asleep in a cardboard recite in a cardboard recycling container,

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Speaker 3: you know, and put together the story.

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Speaker 2: But he was a complete John Doe.

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Speaker 1: Otherwise, did you have a case where there was a

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Speaker 1: stain that it took you a while to identify? I

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Speaker 1: look for things, whether it's coffee, paint, beer, some kind

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Speaker 1: of cleaning agent, seminal fluid all the above, right.

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Speaker 3: All of the above, all of the above. I you

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Speaker 3: just took my list out of my head. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know, I've had car crashes where I'm

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Speaker 3: seeing a restaurant worker on the way back from work.

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Speaker 3: You know, they had like oil stains or coffee on them,

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Speaker 3: you know, just you can tell that, you know, and

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Speaker 3: they had obviously the restaurant uniform on, you know. Otherwise,

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Speaker 3: the big thing that I look at in any kind

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Speaker 3: of hit and run or pedestrian is grease on the body.

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Speaker 3: You know, is there grease or paint chip transfer. Sometimes

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Speaker 3: I'm looking at the clothing for tiny little paint chips

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Speaker 3: that may be caught in the fibers, like of the

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Speaker 3: jeans or a coat if.

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Speaker 2: It's a hit and run.

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Speaker 3: So that's not necessarily a stain, but that's a trace

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Speaker 3: evidence that can be treated that way, right, I collect it,

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Speaker 3: give it for analysis, you know, photograph, photograph everything. I

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Speaker 3: think that that's photograph everything, right, photograph everything in place,

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Speaker 3: and then a stain, a tiny little you know, trace,

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Speaker 3: hair or paint chip. But you know, obviously in any

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Speaker 3: kind of fire death, I'm very very concerned about a

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Speaker 3: volatile so gasoline kerosene, any kind of accelerant that's used, right,

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Speaker 3: that is huge and actually sometimes I don't see it,

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Speaker 3: but I smell.

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Speaker 1: It, right, So if that's good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So if the clothing is doused in something right

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Speaker 3: like like because of the fire, I may not like

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Speaker 3: see a discoloration, you know, whether it be the coloring.

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Speaker 3: And obviously all of this is very hard on black clothing,

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Speaker 3: which we can come back to. But for anything that

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Speaker 3: smells the clothing, I take a photo and I can it.

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Speaker 3: And when I say can it, we have And I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you have this in your truck, which is unlike empty,

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Speaker 3: unlined like paint canisters, right, and so they're made to

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Speaker 3: seal tightly. You can't use anything with paint in it

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Speaker 3: because that already has chemicals in it.

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Speaker 2: You can't just pour the white paint. But I have them.

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Speaker 3: And what I do is I seal the jenes or

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Speaker 3: the shirt or any fragment, even if I can't tell

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Speaker 3: what kind of cloth it is. I in any fire death,

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Speaker 3: if there's fragments of clothing left, I I can it

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Speaker 3: because then they test for any sort of accellerant presence

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Speaker 3: or gasoline, kerosene, you know, whatever it may be I

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Speaker 3: send it to the crime lab. But first what I'm

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Speaker 3: doing by canning it is I then seal it and

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Speaker 3: then I tape it clothed, you know, photograph it like evidence,

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Speaker 3: and then you know, do a chain of custody to

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Speaker 3: you to submit to the crime lab. So it's not

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Speaker 3: always what you just see, do you understand, It's an

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Speaker 3: observation about the clothing itself. And then oftentimes I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you do it, but I run an alternate

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Speaker 3: light source. If I think of any kind of cleaning

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Speaker 3: fluid sexual assault that will highlight a lot of you know,

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Speaker 3: abnormal stains.

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Speaker 2: I can't tell what that stain is. Do you follow, Like, just.

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Speaker 3: Because it's highlighted, it needs further testing, so it could glow,

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Speaker 3: I mean even bleach and you'urine glow correct one, So

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Speaker 3: you can't you know, I'm not going to say that

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Speaker 3: this is XYZ.

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Speaker 2: What I will say is there's.

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Speaker 3: A potential abnormal spot or I will you know, show

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Speaker 3: that to the detectives and say this is worthy of

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Speaker 3: more analysis.

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Speaker 1: And the location on the clothing that's important.

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Speaker 3: Right, And then I do the same thing if the

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Speaker 3: sexual assault is there, like on the body too, the

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Speaker 3: alternate light source can be used on the body, so

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Speaker 3: you know, the clothing can be a clue to something

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Speaker 3: deeper as well.

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Speaker 1: I had a homicide where he was shot in the

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Speaker 1: chant in the neck, but I noticed an injury to

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Speaker 1: the clothing, but there was no blood. But then when

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Speaker 1: he got to the medical examiner's office, sure enough he

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Speaker 1: had been shot in the knee host mortem.

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Speaker 3: And I think I thought about that before too, right,

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Speaker 3: that there's no blood if it's a post mortem injury,

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Speaker 3: and so it makes sense that there's no blood, but

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Speaker 3: you have a hole there, right, So that is an

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Speaker 3: interesting correlation and that should it shouldn't be. You can't

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Speaker 3: just say, oh, that's an artifact, because that's a true hole, right,

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Speaker 3: it's just the fact that he was not alive when

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Speaker 3: he sustained that injury. But I mean, clothing is so critical.

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Speaker 3: I can't even tell you, like, you know, whether it

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Speaker 3: be white sweater where the person was shot and I

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Speaker 3: can see, you know, powder residue to what is on

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Speaker 3: the shirt, right, Like sometimes you know, I remember in

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Speaker 3: high school where I grip outside of DC, you couldn't

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Speaker 3: wear any handkerchiefs or all red or all blue clothing

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Speaker 3: because of gang affiliation. Yeah, there are a lot of

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Speaker 3: restrictions on labels because they had certain affiliation, you know.

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Speaker 3: And so even if you don't think you know you

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Speaker 3: in our jobs, I think we get to know the

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Speaker 3: street slang or alternate representation if you will. You know,

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Speaker 3: you don't always take everything at face value because it

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Speaker 3: could have you know, a correlation with something, so you know,

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Speaker 3: and I think, then is there cultural things?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: Like my mom would wear a sorry.

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Speaker 3: If something happened to her and she was found in

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Speaker 3: a sorry, they would know she's an Indian woman, you know.

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Speaker 1: Or Priya. If she wasn't found wearing a sari, that

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Speaker 1: would tell you something.

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Speaker 2: Right, right exactly?

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Speaker 3: I mean my mom worked a lot, so she did

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Speaker 3: wear like what I call Western clothes. But anytime she

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Speaker 3: went to an Indian function, right, like an Indian get together, wedding, whatever,

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Speaker 3: it's Indian clothes. So you can tell, you know, cultural representation.

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Speaker 3: You know what is meaning to them?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 3: Is it during a celebration? Is that during a funeral?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 3: Like, if you think about it, what would we know

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Speaker 3: we were black to funerals?

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Speaker 2: Right? Not that everyone wearing black is going to a funeral,

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Speaker 2: but there are mean.

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Speaker 3: What I'm getting at is there are representations or meanings

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Speaker 3: to colors, even you know, not the design, not the

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Speaker 3: you know, other than the color. And so we're looking

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Speaker 3: for everything on the body. You know, there's always uniforms,

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Speaker 3: whether there's something interesting that you brought up, it's called well,

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Speaker 3: it reminds me of something called paradoxical undressing.

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Speaker 2: Okay, And we're we're.

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Speaker 3: Still thankfully in the thickest summer in New England, but

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Speaker 3: you know where it's beautiful. But then in the winter time,

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Speaker 3: if you think about, especially in colder states, people drink,

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Speaker 3: and we know drinking causes the body to feel flushed

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Speaker 3: and warm, okay, And what.

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Speaker 2: Happens is that.

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Speaker 3: It's called paradoxical undressing, where people will be outside and

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Speaker 3: they start drinking and they feel flushed, they feel hot,

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Speaker 3: and they start even though they're standing in the snow,

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Speaker 3: you know, in freezing temperatures, they'll start taking layers off

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Speaker 3: because they feel hot.

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Speaker 2: So that's why it's paradoxical. It doesn't make.

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Speaker 3: Sense, and then they're found Ultimately they die from hype bothermia. Right,

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Speaker 3: they feel hot, but they're exposed to cold, and then

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Speaker 3: they die from cold. Exposure, and so if they're not,

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Speaker 3: you know, this is sort of the textbook example of

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Speaker 3: where the clothing doesn't match the setting, you know, the scene,

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Speaker 3: and so they're they're going to be in a T

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Speaker 3: shirt and underwear or shorts, right, and that doesn't make

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Speaker 3: any sense, so you know, something weird is going on.

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Speaker 3: So right there, that's probably the textbook example of clothing

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Speaker 3: and environment mismatch.

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Speaker 1: And I get that. I've even done some skiing where

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Speaker 1: I fel like I've got to take this jacket off.

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Speaker 2: That's right, that's right.

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Speaker 1: And then I go back up and it starts to

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Speaker 1: get cloudy and I'm sweaty and I'm freezing now right

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Speaker 1: right right, And so I understand. I understand how that

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Speaker 1: would happen. Yeah, And you know, one last thing I

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Speaker 1: want to mention about clothing, because we haven't really touched

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Speaker 1: on it, is when the clothing is ripped at the

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Speaker 1: collar near the buttons are missing whatnot. So it could

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Speaker 1: be indicative of a struggle, of an attack, a struggle.

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Speaker 2: Right absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I mean, you know things can be decoratively damaged, right

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Speaker 3: like ripped geans and stuff, But you can tell from

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Speaker 3: the condition or the area, like what's decorative and what's

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Speaker 3: sort of forceful?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, oh, of course.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if it's just a single tear that doesn't look

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Speaker 3: like it should be there, or the jeans are you know,

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Speaker 3: ripped on both sighs the same way.

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Speaker 1: You know, y'all, I had no idea that doctor and

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Speaker 1: I could talk about clothes for so long. So we're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to conclude today because dtor Prie and I

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Speaker 1: both have other engagements. But next week we're gonna pick

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Speaker 1: it up and talk about jewelry. Dtor Pria, can you

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Speaker 1: believe clothing took the whole episode?

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Speaker 2: I know, right, just plain old clothing.

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Speaker 1: Plain old clothing, because we have a whole list. We

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Speaker 1: have a whole list to go through, so clothing and

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Speaker 1: stains and jewelry and piercing and tattoos and marks. Y'all

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Speaker 1: just hang on and we'll be back next week. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: dog bye,