1
00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,680
Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

2
00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:03,800
Speaker 1: cult or a high control group, or if you've had

3
00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,160
Speaker 1: an experience with manipulation or abuse of power you'd like

4
00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:08,080
Speaker 1: to share, leave us a message on our hotline number

5
00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,200
Speaker 1: at five one three nine hundred two nine five five.

6
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:13,480
Speaker 2: Or sheet us an email at trust Me pod at

7
00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:15,040
Speaker 2: gmail dot com.

8
00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:18,360
Speaker 1: Trust me, trust for trust me.

9
00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:20,079
Speaker 3: I'm like a swat person.

10
00:00:20,440 --> 00:00:22,720
Speaker 4: I've never lied to you, and we.

11
00:00:22,760 --> 00:00:23,400
Speaker 3: Never have a live.

12
00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,680
Speaker 1: If you think that one person has all the answers,

13
00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,960
Speaker 1: don't welcome to trust Me. The podcast about Colts, extreme

14
00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 1: believe and the abusive power from two former high schoolers.

15
00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:36,120
Speaker 4: Is that what we said?

16
00:00:36,120 --> 00:00:40,400
Speaker 1: And former teenagers who've actually experienced it. I am Lola

17
00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,280
Speaker 1: Blanc and I am Megan Elizabeth. And today our guest

18
00:00:43,320 --> 00:00:46,120
Speaker 1: is Drew Amstutz. He is a student and survivor of

19
00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:49,000
Speaker 1: conversion therapy and he is adorable. He's going to talk

20
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,720
Speaker 1: to us about coming out to his parents and being

21
00:00:50,760 --> 00:00:53,040
Speaker 1: sent to a counselor who tried to make him straight,

22
00:00:53,240 --> 00:00:55,480
Speaker 1: how he began to believe what the counselor said, and

23
00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:57,640
Speaker 1: how dark things got for him during that period.

24
00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,200
Speaker 2: He'll also tell us what he did to cope how

25
00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,760
Speaker 2: he came out of it and finally spoke his truth,

26
00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:03,960
Speaker 2: and where he's at now.

27
00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,479
Speaker 1: Before we dive in Withdrew, I'm Megan. Could you kindly

28
00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,200
Speaker 1: tell me the cultiest thing that's happening here this week?

29
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:10,200
Speaker 4: Yes, I surely can.

30
00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:14,160
Speaker 2: This ties back into our Amanda Knox cognitive bias. What

31
00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,560
Speaker 2: I've noticed that I'm doing is there's an action bias. Right,

32
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:21,240
Speaker 2: you just start doing action because it feels like it's

33
00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,400
Speaker 2: better than doing nothing. And I do this every morning

34
00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,640
Speaker 2: on my drive to the coffee shop. There's a light

35
00:01:27,720 --> 00:01:31,640
Speaker 2: that takes forever. It's the slowest light in Los Angeles.

36
00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:36,000
Speaker 2: So I take backstreets that take so much longer. But

37
00:01:36,080 --> 00:01:39,400
Speaker 2: because I'm moving the whole time, I feel better about it.

38
00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,280
Speaker 2: And every day I think, just go the slower way,

39
00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,800
Speaker 2: and I think, no, go the way that I can

40
00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:46,480
Speaker 2: keep driving the whole time.

41
00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:50,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love this observation.

42
00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:51,160
Speaker 4: Thank you.

43
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,920
Speaker 1: I'm sure I'm guilty of the same thing. Who likes

44
00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:54,520
Speaker 1: to be idle?

45
00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:54,800
Speaker 3: You know?

46
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:55,800
Speaker 4: I hate it?

47
00:01:55,920 --> 00:01:59,800
Speaker 1: Not me meh Okay. So you know this fire is

48
00:01:59,840 --> 00:02:03,200
Speaker 1: like devastating fire that was happening in Colorado, the Marshall

49
00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,160
Speaker 1: fire in Colorado. There's all this land that was burned.

50
00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:09,600
Speaker 1: So part of this land, it turns out there's like

51
00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:11,760
Speaker 1: an area of it that's a part of the investigation

52
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,880
Speaker 1: of like how it started, and that land, or at

53
00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:17,079
Speaker 1: least part of it, is property that is owned by

54
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:20,880
Speaker 1: a cult called the Twelve Tribes. Have you ever heard

55
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:21,200
Speaker 1: of them?

56
00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:22,239
Speaker 4: It's so weird.

57
00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:24,440
Speaker 2: I have them written down right now in my phone

58
00:02:24,680 --> 00:02:26,720
Speaker 2: at the top of my notes to talk to you

59
00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:27,000
Speaker 2: about it.

60
00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:28,800
Speaker 1: Really, Yeah, oh my god, look at that.

61
00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:29,200
Speaker 3: Yeah.

62
00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:31,240
Speaker 1: I had never heard of them either. Then I started

63
00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:34,160
Speaker 1: looking into it. I'm like fascinated, and I've already reached

64
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:37,080
Speaker 1: out to someone to try to get him to come on. Basically,

65
00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,359
Speaker 1: it's just your classic stuff where there's someone that they

66
00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:42,640
Speaker 1: believe is the I don't think that the word they

67
00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,600
Speaker 1: use is profit, but basically that it's all very interesting.

68
00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,120
Speaker 1: It's a religious called it's pretty classic stuff. But they've

69
00:02:49,120 --> 00:02:52,080
Speaker 1: got some very controversial, to say the least, to views

70
00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,160
Speaker 1: on race. They have a pretty racist pass and present

71
00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,239
Speaker 1: in terms of what their beliefs are, and they all

72
00:02:57,320 --> 00:02:59,840
Speaker 1: think that this one guy is the prophet. And then

73
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,519
Speaker 1: they own this coffee shop, which I guess I think

74
00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,919
Speaker 1: is a chain maybe called the Yellow Deli, which looks

75
00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:09,680
Speaker 1: like it's actually extremely popular and bolder, although currently closed

76
00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,400
Speaker 1: because of the fire. I find it so interesting when

77
00:03:11,400 --> 00:03:13,400
Speaker 1: Colts open restaurants. I want to go on a tour

78
00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,280
Speaker 1: across America where I just go to all of the

79
00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:16,079
Speaker 1: Colts restaurants.

80
00:03:16,200 --> 00:03:19,200
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So that's what happened. Somebody was telling me this

81
00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,280
Speaker 2: had nothing to do with the fire. Somebody was telling

82
00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,240
Speaker 2: me about the coffee shop that they liked to go

83
00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:26,560
Speaker 2: to when they lived in Colorado, and it was this one.

84
00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:30,040
Speaker 1: No way, that's how that came. Amazing. Well, I am

85
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,280
Speaker 1: determined to go now check it out. But yeah, that's

86
00:03:33,320 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 1: my cold thing for now, you guys, and we're gonna

87
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:37,680
Speaker 1: we'll probably delve deeper into that very soon.

88
00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:38,240
Speaker 4: I love it.

89
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, let's talk to you.

90
00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:42,120
Speaker 4: Let's do it all right, let's go.

91
00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:56,320
Speaker 1: Okay, welcome Drew Amstutz. Thank you so much for coming on,

92
00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:57,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me.

93
00:03:58,160 --> 00:03:58,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

94
00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,440
Speaker 1: We saw your story on TikTok, Was it right, Megan?

95
00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 4: Yeah?

96
00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:05,920
Speaker 1: It is extremely compelling and obviously upsetting. You are a

97
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 1: conversion therapy survivor. Can you tell us a little bit

98
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:12,320
Speaker 1: about your upbringing? What religion were you? How did this

99
00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:12,760
Speaker 1: all begin?

100
00:04:12,960 --> 00:04:15,960
Speaker 3: Yeah? Definitely. So. I grew up in the Lutheran Church,

101
00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:20,159
Speaker 3: the LCMS, which is Lutheran Church Missouri Synid branch of

102
00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,240
Speaker 3: the Lutheran Faith. And my dad used to be a

103
00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:27,160
Speaker 3: pastor actually and was a pastor for eleven years. I

104
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:30,080
Speaker 3: grew up very much as a pastor's kid in the church.

105
00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:32,800
Speaker 3: I would be at the church almost every day of

106
00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:35,360
Speaker 3: the week, going to church maybe five times a week.

107
00:04:35,440 --> 00:04:39,520
Speaker 3: Oh my, I also yeah, so I had a lot

108
00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,320
Speaker 3: of church in my life. I also went to Lutheran

109
00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:45,799
Speaker 3: grade school and high school. So my entire K twelve

110
00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,240
Speaker 3: experience was just Lutheran, Lutheran Lutheran, oh wow, all day,

111
00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:53,000
Speaker 3: every day. And that led into many aspects of my life.

112
00:04:53,080 --> 00:04:55,000
Speaker 3: Any class that I was in, whether it be math,

113
00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,240
Speaker 3: whether it be science, whether it be social studies, it

114
00:04:57,279 --> 00:04:59,920
Speaker 3: was all geared around what they called Christ at the set.

115
00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,239
Speaker 3: So I truly like eight slept breathed the church.

116
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:07,279
Speaker 2: Wow, what does that look like? Like algebra with Christ

117
00:05:07,360 --> 00:05:08,000
Speaker 2: at the center?

118
00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,720
Speaker 3: Like they try to find some way to throw it

119
00:05:11,720 --> 00:05:14,680
Speaker 3: in in any way that they possibly came like. I

120
00:05:14,720 --> 00:05:19,800
Speaker 3: was taught creationism throughout my entire adolescence. The only time

121
00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,440
Speaker 3: we ever talked about evolution was in like how to

122
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,640
Speaker 3: refute it. If you were to meet someone who believed

123
00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:28,440
Speaker 3: in evolution, these are the things that you can bring

124
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,600
Speaker 3: up that will blow their mind. Like, for instance, they

125
00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:34,240
Speaker 3: said that, and this doesn't make any sense, but they

126
00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:38,559
Speaker 3: said that if the world was truly millions of years old,

127
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,080
Speaker 3: then there would be so much salt build up from

128
00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:44,880
Speaker 3: you know, the ocean, that you could walk across it

129
00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:47,640
Speaker 3: and the whole ocean would be solid, like out of

130
00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:48,880
Speaker 3: one particle of salt.

131
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,120
Speaker 1: My mind is blown. I think I believe in creationism

132
00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,600
Speaker 1: now from science, of course.

133
00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:59,719
Speaker 3: And like the Grand Canyon, like clearly Noah's flood happened

134
00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 3: because you know there's a canyon there.

135
00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:04,840
Speaker 1: Right obviously. I mean I can't believe that that is

136
00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:08,160
Speaker 1: still a thing that people are still learning creationism as science.

137
00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:10,000
Speaker 1: That is like mind boggling to me.

138
00:06:10,480 --> 00:06:13,360
Speaker 2: Were you all in were you like, yes, ma'am, that

139
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:14,800
Speaker 2: is true, yes.

140
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:16,840
Speaker 3: For the longest time, because I mean, like in the

141
00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,359
Speaker 3: community that I was raised in, everyone believed in you

142
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,200
Speaker 3: would be the outsider of the outsiders if you did

143
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,320
Speaker 3: it right, especially considering the fact that my dad was

144
00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,400
Speaker 3: a pastor. I really was in it, and I was

145
00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,120
Speaker 3: in it deep, and I remember even as late as

146
00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,800
Speaker 3: like seventh and eighth grade, Like I remember one of

147
00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,000
Speaker 3: my classmates she thought that, like gay people should have

148
00:06:38,080 --> 00:06:40,279
Speaker 3: rights and we shouldn't hate gay people. And I just

149
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,159
Speaker 3: thought that was the craziest thing ever. And I would

150
00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,120
Speaker 3: like show her all these Bible verses of like, well

151
00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:46,000
Speaker 3: it says here that it's a sin, and it says

152
00:06:46,040 --> 00:06:48,400
Speaker 3: here that we should, you know, support them, and like

153
00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:50,839
Speaker 3: this is what we believe in. Like I don't understand

154
00:06:50,880 --> 00:06:52,640
Speaker 3: why you believe that. And I remember calling her out

155
00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,560
Speaker 3: in front of our entire class wow, and like explain

156
00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:57,520
Speaker 3: like how wrong she was for that?

157
00:06:57,839 --> 00:06:58,760
Speaker 1: When you were how old?

158
00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,720
Speaker 3: Seventh or eighth grade? So I was probably about thirteen

159
00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,440
Speaker 3: or fourteen years old. I ended up coming out when

160
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,680
Speaker 3: I was fifteen, so I was close to coming out

161
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:09,479
Speaker 3: at that point, but very much in the closet. And

162
00:07:09,520 --> 00:07:11,440
Speaker 3: I think because I was in the closet, I was

163
00:07:11,600 --> 00:07:14,680
Speaker 3: very vocal about how much I did not think gay

164
00:07:14,720 --> 00:07:15,600
Speaker 3: people were.

165
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:19,320
Speaker 1: Okay, right, that's such a stereotype, but it does happen.

166
00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,320
Speaker 1: Like some of the most vocal people are the ones

167
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:23,960
Speaker 1: that are having that inner turmoil, you.

168
00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,320
Speaker 3: Know, exactly exactly, So when.

169
00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,280
Speaker 1: Did you start to suspect that you might not be straight.

170
00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:32,880
Speaker 3: Oh, I had a feeling pretty early on. I remember

171
00:07:33,000 --> 00:07:37,160
Speaker 3: as early as probably about third grade, I started to have,

172
00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,400
Speaker 3: you know, crushes, because I think that's when generally people

173
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:41,280
Speaker 3: start to have crushes. And I noticed that all my

174
00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,520
Speaker 3: crushes were boys, and I thought it was the weirdest

175
00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 3: thing ever, and I thought I was the only person

176
00:07:46,520 --> 00:07:48,680
Speaker 3: in the world who felt that way. And then I

177
00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,600
Speaker 3: remember a person in the grade above me actually came

178
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 3: out as trans that year, and I went home to

179
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,120
Speaker 3: my parents and I explained what had happened, and they

180
00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,560
Speaker 3: were so disgusted and so upset by it. Found out

181
00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 3: through that conversation that there are also people who you know,

182
00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,120
Speaker 3: identified as gay. So it was at that point that

183
00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:08,920
Speaker 3: I realized, oh, I'm not the only one. There are

184
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 3: others like me. But this is something that I truly

185
00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 3: cannot be that this is something that if I do

186
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,160
Speaker 3: come out as there would be danger involved in So

187
00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:20,160
Speaker 3: I suppressed it and suppressed it and suppressed it.

188
00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,760
Speaker 1: So you're reading these Bible verses to other people knowing

189
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:26,560
Speaker 1: that you were having these same feelings and just like

190
00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,200
Speaker 1: trying to squash it down in yourself basically.

191
00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,440
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. And I remember there was this one person

192
00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,480
Speaker 3: who I went to school with who still identifies as straight,

193
00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:39,000
Speaker 3: but you know, ah, I'm not sure if that's really

194
00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,760
Speaker 3: the case. And kind of like how I was in

195
00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 3: seventh and eighth grade, he still is now, and he's

196
00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,319
Speaker 3: very vocal about the fact that like gay people should

197
00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,120
Speaker 3: not have rights, and you know, he's even gone all

198
00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:54,000
Speaker 3: full blown maga and everything. Oh no, but it's something

199
00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:57,480
Speaker 3: that's almost like a self coping mechanism for feelings that

200
00:08:57,559 --> 00:08:58,760
Speaker 3: they may or may not have.

201
00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 1: Right. It's such a brave thing in that environment to

202
00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,720
Speaker 1: come out, period, And I'm wondering what was the catalyst

203
00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,360
Speaker 1: for giving you the courage to do that.

204
00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:12,360
Speaker 3: Well, I was fifteen, and as Taylor Swift said, when

205
00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:14,640
Speaker 3: you're fifteen and someone tells you they love you, you're going

206
00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:19,559
Speaker 3: to believe them. And I fell in love quote unquote

207
00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,840
Speaker 3: with a senior and I was a freshman, and the

208
00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,880
Speaker 3: plan originally was going to be to stay in the

209
00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,600
Speaker 3: closet through high school and then come out when I

210
00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:29,280
Speaker 3: went to college and I would be more free and

211
00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:31,959
Speaker 3: on my own and like out of my parents' house.

212
00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,120
Speaker 3: But I was fifteen and I fell in love and

213
00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:37,280
Speaker 3: I just wanted to share that with the world. So

214
00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:38,920
Speaker 3: I decided that it was time to come out. And

215
00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,440
Speaker 3: I'm glad that I did. I mean, like being in

216
00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:44,400
Speaker 3: a closet for four more years would have just been torture. Yeah,

217
00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,880
Speaker 3: And even though I had a very rough coming out experience, Like,

218
00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:48,560
Speaker 3: I'm glad that I came out when I did.

219
00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,040
Speaker 1: So how did it go?

220
00:09:53,200 --> 00:09:56,200
Speaker 3: I would say it went very poorly, Like very poorly.

221
00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,240
Speaker 3: I remember when I came out to them, my parents,

222
00:09:59,280 --> 00:10:01,800
Speaker 3: that is, they didn't even look at me. They like

223
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,839
Speaker 3: had tears in their eyes and they just couldn't look

224
00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 3: at me. And I think that lasted for about a

225
00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:08,960
Speaker 3: week of like they just could not look at me.

226
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:11,839
Speaker 3: And then after they had come to terms with it,

227
00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,559
Speaker 3: that's when, you know, the conversion therapy started. And that's

228
00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:19,199
Speaker 3: when they started like taking my phone and not letting

229
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,319
Speaker 3: me see people or do things. And it was a

230
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:25,640
Speaker 3: very long year and a half of the equivalent of

231
00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:28,680
Speaker 3: like house arrests where I had no access to the

232
00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,040
Speaker 3: internet or the outside world. I couldn't go anywhere except

233
00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:36,640
Speaker 3: for school eventually work, and then conversion therapy. Wow, I

234
00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:38,840
Speaker 3: couldn't hang out with friends, like there was so many

235
00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:40,600
Speaker 3: things that happened in the world during this time that

236
00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:43,360
Speaker 3: I had no idea were happening. Like during that time,

237
00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:46,040
Speaker 3: it was when Snapchat switched to the feature where you

238
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,000
Speaker 3: could like tap on your face and have those like

239
00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,360
Speaker 3: really cool like dog filters.

240
00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:52,920
Speaker 4: Oh no, you weren't there for dog filters.

241
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:54,520
Speaker 3: I had no idea.

242
00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:57,760
Speaker 1: I had no idea such important world news.

243
00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,880
Speaker 3: And then like when I broke free like two years

244
00:11:00,920 --> 00:11:03,720
Speaker 3: later and I had access to like my phone, I

245
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:05,720
Speaker 3: fully didn't know how to use it. Like there were

246
00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,400
Speaker 3: so many features on Instagram and Twitter and Snapchat that

247
00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,160
Speaker 3: had changed, and it was like I just got jumped

248
00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:12,920
Speaker 3: into this new world and I had no idea how

249
00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:13,360
Speaker 3: to be new.

250
00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,360
Speaker 2: For your face turns into a dog, you scream and

251
00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,680
Speaker 2: throw your like, oh my god.

252
00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,040
Speaker 3: And if you want to hear something even crazier for

253
00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,160
Speaker 3: my I want to say it was my seventeenth birthday.

254
00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,240
Speaker 3: That was around the time when I things started to

255
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,319
Speaker 3: get better and I got a little bit more freedom.

256
00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:31,520
Speaker 3: For my seventeenth birthday. You know what my parents got

257
00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:36,680
Speaker 3: me what they let me download Instagram. Wow, that was

258
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:37,680
Speaker 3: my seventeenth birthday.

259
00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:39,880
Speaker 1: Pressent Wow generous.

260
00:11:40,280 --> 00:11:43,559
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, my sister got a phone. Her birthday's three

261
00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,000
Speaker 3: days after mine. She got a phone. I got Instagram.

262
00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,840
Speaker 1: Okay to use on what device?

263
00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,120
Speaker 3: Oh, they gave me a phone, but it had a

264
00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:57,680
Speaker 3: lockdown browser on it to where I couldn't like Safari

265
00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,040
Speaker 3: was turned off. I only had access to this app

266
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,600
Speaker 3: called moby Sip, and it would block out anything that

267
00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,280
Speaker 3: it deemed bad. And I think my parents could put

268
00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,760
Speaker 3: in filters of like what types of things to block.

269
00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,120
Speaker 3: And I remember for a religion project, I was making

270
00:12:14,160 --> 00:12:17,000
Speaker 3: a presentation and I needed to I don't remember why,

271
00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,160
Speaker 3: but I needed to have like a PNG image of

272
00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:22,120
Speaker 3: like flowers. So I went onto my phone and I

273
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:24,160
Speaker 3: googled flowers and that was blocked.

274
00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:24,719
Speaker 4: Wow.

275
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,160
Speaker 3: So there's just like a whole bunch of different things

276
00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,160
Speaker 3: that like got blocked. I will say I found a workaround.

277
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:32,760
Speaker 3: So if anyone's in this similar situation, if you go

278
00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,439
Speaker 3: to the news app and then click on any article

279
00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:39,240
Speaker 3: with a link, it'll open up its own internal browser

280
00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,240
Speaker 3: and then you can you know, type in whatever you

281
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,720
Speaker 3: rl you want from there, so I would be able

282
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,000
Speaker 3: to perfect genius.

283
00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:49,480
Speaker 1: What year is this?

284
00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:54,000
Speaker 3: This would have been in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen.

285
00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,120
Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, so this is so recent, this is like

286
00:12:56,240 --> 00:12:57,120
Speaker 1: not even that long ago.

287
00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:57,440
Speaker 3: No.

288
00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:00,280
Speaker 1: I mean maybe maybe for you because you're you're a

289
00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:02,280
Speaker 1: young baby, and it feels like a long time ago,

290
00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:04,400
Speaker 1: But for me that's like two days a yeah, I'm

291
00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:09,800
Speaker 1: still wearing the same outfit. Yeah, Wela.

292
00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:11,760
Speaker 2: Before we move on, can we just say a little

293
00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:15,200
Speaker 2: bit more about being Lutheran because I don't really know

294
00:13:15,280 --> 00:13:17,560
Speaker 2: that much about it. When you said it to me,

295
00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:19,959
Speaker 2: it was like, that's like from the South, what is

296
00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:20,760
Speaker 2: it exactly?

297
00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:25,520
Speaker 3: So, in general, Lutheranism is an offshoot of Catholicism, and

298
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,440
Speaker 3: it would probably be the closest to Catholicism and the

299
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:32,600
Speaker 3: Protestant wing of Christianity. Okay, And then within being Lutheran,

300
00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,319
Speaker 3: there's multiple synods or like sects of it. There's three.

301
00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,360
Speaker 3: There's Wells, which is like Wisconsin based, There's LCMS, which

302
00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:43,360
Speaker 3: is Missouri based, and then there's the ELCA, which is

303
00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:47,319
Speaker 3: like across the country. The ELCA is like fairly progressive.

304
00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,320
Speaker 3: I mean they have like women pastors, you can have

305
00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:51,920
Speaker 3: gay marriage, like it is, oh wow, as progressive as

306
00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:55,720
Speaker 3: it gets in the evangelical world. Wells is pretty far

307
00:13:55,840 --> 00:14:00,000
Speaker 3: out there, and LCMS is as well, So like, for instance,

308
00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:06,880
Speaker 3: in LCMS churches, women can't speak really like if if

309
00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:10,040
Speaker 3: you're reading the Bible readings, the Old Testament and New

310
00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,760
Speaker 3: Testament could be read by women, but like only sometimes,

311
00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,680
Speaker 3: like maybe for like a specific week dedicated to like

312
00:14:17,760 --> 00:14:20,680
Speaker 3: women or something, but the Gospel can be never read

313
00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:23,920
Speaker 3: by a woman. Wow, a woman cannot be a pastor.

314
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,880
Speaker 3: A woman can even be an elder in the church,

315
00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 3: which is like a church leader. And then in terms

316
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:32,600
Speaker 3: of the school side of things, a woman cannot teach

317
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:36,040
Speaker 3: men or boys really who are confirmed, which you get

318
00:14:36,040 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 3: confirmed in eighth grade, So from eighth grade on, a

319
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:41,360
Speaker 3: woman is not supposed to be supposed to teach religion.

320
00:14:41,560 --> 00:14:45,360
Speaker 3: A woman can teach religion beneath eighth grade because you know,

321
00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,920
Speaker 3: the boys in the class aren't confirmed it. But once

322
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:49,880
Speaker 3: you're confirmed, a woman can't teach you.

323
00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:54,200
Speaker 1: Because God forbid, she'll tempt you to have sex or something.

324
00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:59,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, the woman's place is to do other things. Wo.

325
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,840
Speaker 3: Women are gifted in other ways, and leading is not

326
00:15:02,920 --> 00:15:03,560
Speaker 3: one of them.

327
00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:08,080
Speaker 1: Right, that's kind of the deal in Mormonism too, So

328
00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:11,520
Speaker 1: tell us about the very first session, Yes, what was

329
00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:12,000
Speaker 1: that like.

330
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:17,120
Speaker 3: Of conversion therapy? Yeah, So the sessions were all in

331
00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:22,760
Speaker 3: very similar layouts or huish it like structures structures. Yeah,

332
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,560
Speaker 3: the structures of the of the sections were all very similar. Basically,

333
00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 3: I would go into the psychologist's office. It was basically

334
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 3: like a family counselor office. And this was outside of

335
00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:37,360
Speaker 3: my church, but it was a Christian establishment. I would

336
00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:40,920
Speaker 3: go in typically with my dad, and my dad would

337
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,320
Speaker 3: go in for about fifteen or so minutes and basically

338
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,000
Speaker 3: talk with the psychologists of like all the gay stuff

339
00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:48,560
Speaker 3: I did that week, or like you know, would spill

340
00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:50,800
Speaker 3: all the tea, all the gay tea, this is insane,

341
00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,160
Speaker 3: to which I would then be invited in for about

342
00:15:53,200 --> 00:15:56,760
Speaker 3: like maybe fifteen minutes after that, and then the three

343
00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:59,360
Speaker 3: of us, my dad, the counselor, and myself would all

344
00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:01,840
Speaker 3: talk and we would basically talk about like what my

345
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 3: dad told him, and like I would have to like

346
00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,320
Speaker 3: look my dad into the eye and tell him I

347
00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:09,760
Speaker 3: love him and tell him why I love him, and

348
00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:11,520
Speaker 3: then my dad would have to look me in the

349
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,760
Speaker 3: eye and then tell me why he loves me, and

350
00:16:13,800 --> 00:16:15,560
Speaker 3: like it would be like that type of a situation

351
00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:17,960
Speaker 3: with the three of us, and then he'd kick my

352
00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 3: dad out and for about thirty minutes or forty five

353
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,040
Speaker 3: minutes that would be like our actual session, and it

354
00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,560
Speaker 3: was just craziness, like complete mind games. And I think

355
00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:30,520
Speaker 3: the most important thing to keep in mind throughout all

356
00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,880
Speaker 3: of this as you're listening is that I was fifteen fifteen,

357
00:16:34,960 --> 00:16:37,080
Speaker 3: and then for a little bit I was also sixteen,

358
00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:40,960
Speaker 3: So talking to an adult in this way, no one

359
00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:43,360
Speaker 3: would believe you. But when you're a child and a

360
00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:46,280
Speaker 3: person of authority who has a doctorate and claims to

361
00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:49,400
Speaker 3: know all while you're going through a period where you're

362
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,720
Speaker 3: trying to figure everything out, the mind games actually work.

363
00:16:53,720 --> 00:16:56,160
Speaker 3: So basically, he would try to break me down piece

364
00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,520
Speaker 3: by piece and try to explain how confused I was

365
00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,920
Speaker 3: and how like the devil was taking over my life

366
00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:05,720
Speaker 3: and I just couldn't see it. And he had definitely

367
00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,120
Speaker 3: read up on what it was like to come out

368
00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,400
Speaker 3: and like the feelings that you have, because he would

369
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,720
Speaker 3: you and he would say things like, you know, I

370
00:17:12,800 --> 00:17:16,320
Speaker 3: know that you're feeling confused because you've probably dated girls before,

371
00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:18,600
Speaker 3: but now you're having some feelings towards guys and you

372
00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:20,720
Speaker 3: just don't know what to do. And he would try

373
00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:22,800
Speaker 3: to frame things in a you don't really know what's

374
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:25,680
Speaker 3: going on, and that's normal and that's okay, here's what's

375
00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,840
Speaker 3: actually going on. And then he would like put in

376
00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:30,800
Speaker 3: his own little like church view on it and you know,

377
00:17:30,840 --> 00:17:33,359
Speaker 3: explain that like, really it's just the devil working through me,

378
00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:36,080
Speaker 3: and it's my job that I need to like renounce

379
00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,040
Speaker 3: that and say no, and that you know, some of

380
00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,159
Speaker 3: us have different crosses to bear. You know, some people

381
00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,359
Speaker 3: have alcoholism, some people have pedophilia, and your cross to

382
00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,879
Speaker 3: bear is being gay, and you know, this is how

383
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:54,280
Speaker 3: you need to go about getting that out of your life.

384
00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 3: And that's how it started out. And then once it

385
00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,400
Speaker 3: became clear to him that like I wasn't really buying

386
00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:03,040
Speaker 3: into this, then it wasn't quite as much of a

387
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 3: the devil is working through you. It's you are accepting

388
00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:09,120
Speaker 3: the devil. And it became a lot of like blame

389
00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:11,639
Speaker 3: and guilt. And he tried to like really make me

390
00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:13,880
Speaker 3: feel like a terrible person and that like I'm what's

391
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:16,000
Speaker 3: wrong with society and I'm going to bring down the

392
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,480
Speaker 3: church and like all this crazy stuff, Oh my god.

393
00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,760
Speaker 3: And then he would also try to like make me

394
00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:26,800
Speaker 3: feel unsure of myself in other ways. He would insinuate

395
00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:29,040
Speaker 3: and just directly tell me that, like I had an

396
00:18:29,040 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 3: eating disorder. And I would be like, no, when I

397
00:18:32,119 --> 00:18:35,000
Speaker 3: go to McDonald's, I get three double cheeseburgers, a large shake,

398
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 3: and a large fry and I enjoy every single piece

399
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 3: of it. I'm fine. And he'd be like, no, you're

400
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:42,320
Speaker 3: weight too, skinny, you have an eating disorder. And then

401
00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:44,159
Speaker 3: it was funny because the day he said that, in

402
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:46,960
Speaker 3: health class, we had actually just learned about BMI, and

403
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,800
Speaker 3: I kind of pull up Google and I was like, look,

404
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:50,800
Speaker 3: this is my height, this is my weight, this m BMI.

405
00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:51,960
Speaker 3: I'm fine.

406
00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:52,440
Speaker 1: Nice.

407
00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,439
Speaker 3: And then he was like, well, I guess, and I

408
00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:58,760
Speaker 3: was like, so what's your height, what's your weight? I

409
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:04,360
Speaker 3: was like, oh, sir, you overweight, which, like you would

410
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 3: think he would know better. If his whole thing is

411
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:08,399
Speaker 3: like dealing with gay people, he should know that, Like

412
00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 3: we're gonna clap.

413
00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:11,320
Speaker 4: Back exactly exactly.

414
00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,200
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then he would also like insinuate that, like, well,

415
00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:17,879
Speaker 3: maybe you were touched as a kid by somebody, like

416
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:22,080
Speaker 3: did that happen? Or like he would try to like

417
00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 3: describe a woman's body and see which parts I thought

418
00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 3: were attractive.

419
00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 4: Okay, that's so weird, so creepy.

420
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 3: Like you would describe breast, he would describe, and mind you,

421
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 3: this is like a fifty some year old man talking

422
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 3: to a fifteen or sixteen.

423
00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:39,920
Speaker 4: Year old Oh appropriate, I mean, were you so depressed?

424
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,560
Speaker 4: Did you feel suicidal? Did you feel you did?

425
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 3: It was horrible, and I remember, you know, my parents

426
00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,920
Speaker 3: were going through just a very concerted effort by the

427
00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:51,159
Speaker 3: church of trying to get them to continue to do

428
00:19:51,160 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 3: stuff like this. So to them, this was how they

429
00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 3: were showing love, and to them, this is how they

430
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:59,320
Speaker 3: were gonna save me because with everything that they were told,

431
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,800
Speaker 3: if they don't this, I'm going to go to hell.

432
00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:04,840
Speaker 3: So they call this tough love. Like they were truly

433
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,959
Speaker 3: brainwashed into thinking that, like if they don't do this,

434
00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,520
Speaker 3: that they're giving up on their son. So for me,

435
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 3: when it meant like I would go home and everything

436
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 3: after these sessions, like I was so overwhelmed with emotions,

437
00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:21,120
Speaker 3: like this was such a traumatic experience, but my parents

438
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 3: wouldn't want me to like cry or like be upset

439
00:20:23,800 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 3: about it because that would mean that I'm kind of

440
00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,800
Speaker 3: like fighting against it. So I had this ritual of

441
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 3: every single time I came home from conversion therapy. I

442
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,119
Speaker 3: would get in the shower, turn it up full blast,

443
00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 3: and then just like sob because then the sound of

444
00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:42,560
Speaker 3: the shower would like drown out my tears. Yeah, and

445
00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 3: you couldn't hear it through all this. Also, again I

446
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 3: didn't have access to the internet, so I didn't have

447
00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 3: any support system. I couldn't really talk with friends other

448
00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 3: than talking at school. And even when I was at school,

449
00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,399
Speaker 3: this was a Christian school, and the administration worked with

450
00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:00,520
Speaker 3: my parents to see who I was talking too and

451
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:02,159
Speaker 3: like try to figure out what I was talking about.

452
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 3: It was just like a concerted effort from everyone in

453
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 3: my life to try to like change me. Yeah, and

454
00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,280
Speaker 3: I went truly crazy. Like I remember, I'd go home

455
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,320
Speaker 3: after school every day and like my English teacher, which

456
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 3: I mean like the gays in their English teachers, we

457
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,919
Speaker 3: all love each other, she would give me like extra

458
00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 3: poems or extra readings to like, you know, give me

459
00:21:23,720 --> 00:21:25,640
Speaker 3: because I had nothing else to do. But like when

460
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,040
Speaker 3: I wasn't doing those extra readings, I would literally just

461
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 3: lay in bed and I'd stare at my ceiling. And

462
00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 3: my ceiling in my room was Spanish lace, which has

463
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,320
Speaker 3: like little bumps and everything on it, and right above

464
00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,240
Speaker 3: my bed, there were two bumps that to me looked

465
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,160
Speaker 3: like birds. And every day I would come home stare

466
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:43,199
Speaker 3: at my ceiling and I would see these two birds

467
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:45,480
Speaker 3: and they would like fly across the ceiling and they

468
00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 3: would talk to each other and have like whole different

469
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 3: adventures and stuff, and like, I was truly losing my

470
00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,639
Speaker 3: mind and my only saving grace was these little Spanish

471
00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 3: lace burds on the ceiling. And I truly, like between

472
00:21:59,320 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 3: just fixating on those fake birds and then also just

473
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 3: going through over and over and over again, what my

474
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,720
Speaker 3: like suicide plan was, Like that's all I could think

475
00:22:07,760 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 3: about and all I could do.

476
00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,719
Speaker 2: Really, Wow, it's a miracle you pulled through it.

477
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, No, And statistically speaking, like I believe it's ninety

478
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 3: one percent of people who've gone through conversion therapy have

479
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 3: severe suicidal ideation and then of that a good amount

480
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,439
Speaker 3: of them actually take their lives. So statistically speaking, it

481
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 3: truly is a miracle that I'm still here.

482
00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 1: I mean that is not surprising at all. I mean,

483
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 1: it's that you're still here is not what I mean.

484
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:37,960
Speaker 1: But just like you're being told that everything about you

485
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,239
Speaker 1: is wrong, something that you cannot change about yourself and

486
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 1: that you have the freaking devil in you, Like I

487
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 1: just can't. I can't imagine that, and especially with how

488
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 1: isolated that you were. Yeah, like you're basically you know,

489
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:52,479
Speaker 1: you're living at home or whatever, but like you are

490
00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 1: basically in a coercive control like cult, like high control

491
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: group essentially because of your every move is being rolled

492
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: at every point. Like that is yeah, for sure, there's

493
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 1: no relief. Did you have music that you listened to?

494
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 3: Like, It's funny you mentioned that I had the one

495
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 3: piece of technology that I could use was I had

496
00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 3: an old iPod nano, which obviously didn't have any access

497
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,840
Speaker 3: to the internet, so I had access to that which

498
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 3: I had had an iPhone for some time, so it

499
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 3: wasn't updated with current songs. So I was listening to

500
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 3: like Kesha and like some old like twenty ten, twenty

501
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 3: eleven bops.

502
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 4: This is the meanest thing you could do to a

503
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,480
Speaker 4: gay person. This is cruel. Yes, yeah, so Kesha.

504
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 1: Kesha, I mean depends on the song.

505
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,159
Speaker 3: But then it was also like, again, I grew up

506
00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 3: in Indiana, so like as a kid, like I listened

507
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 3: to a decent amount of country music. So like, by

508
00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 3: the time I was in high school, I didn't anymore,

509
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,719
Speaker 3: but on my iPod was a bunch of like country music.

510
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: So did you have Carrie Underwood before he cheats? Because

511
00:23:57,280 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: I feel like that would be the appropriate era.

512
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,240
Speaker 3: I didn't. That would have been amazing, though, So it

513
00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:06,000
Speaker 3: was that and then listening to the radio through that iPod.

514
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 4: The radio was my gym growing up.

515
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 3: Now, and that was my only way of knowing about

516
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:16,680
Speaker 3: current songs too, is through the radio. Otherwise it would

517
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 3: have just spent my twenty ten bops.

518
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm glad you had zumbops?

519
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Are you? So?

520
00:24:23,200 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: At what point do you start to like believe him

521
00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,320
Speaker 1: or think that you there is something wrong with you,

522
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: like what is actually happening in the way that you

523
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: perceive yourself.

524
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 3: I think definitely towards the beginning, I believed him to

525
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:37,119
Speaker 3: an extent because he was so right about some of

526
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 3: the other things that I was thinking. And I hadn't

527
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 3: ever met anyone who was gay. I didn't know what

528
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 3: it was like to come out. I didn't know how

529
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,640
Speaker 3: to come out, and I didn't know what the feelings

530
00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 3: would be once I did come out. So one of

531
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 3: my only resources forgetting these answers was him, and there

532
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 3: was a brief moment where I sort of trusted him

533
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 3: or at least, you know, took what he had say

534
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 3: with some type of respect. And it was then that

535
00:25:05,600 --> 00:25:08,639
Speaker 3: it was just it was so defeating to always be

536
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 3: told how bad you are and to have no party

537
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 3: be that's good. And I remember just like being at

538
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 3: a loss that like my entire life, like I was

539
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 3: the good kid. I was the kid that never fought

540
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 3: with their parents. I was the kid that, you know,

541
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:23,479
Speaker 3: was at the top of my grade, got like this

542
00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 3: giant scholarship to go to my high school. Like I

543
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 3: was at the top of my class and did great

544
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 3: and everything, and everyone looked up to me. And then

545
00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 3: for the first time in my life, I was considered

546
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 3: at the bottom of the barrel and I was like

547
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,280
Speaker 3: the scorn of the earth. And it was just such

548
00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 3: a big fall for me, especially at a time when

549
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 3: I was starting to feel really good about myself and

550
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 3: I was starting to not second guess what I was

551
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,359
Speaker 3: wearing or the music I was listening to, or like,

552
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,520
Speaker 3: you know, what my favorite color was or any of that.

553
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 3: Like I was starting to grow a lot more comfortable

554
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 3: in my skin. And then I was having someone tell

555
00:25:57,600 --> 00:25:59,640
Speaker 3: me where A lot of people tell me that like

556
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: knew you, this new found you is terrible.

557
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 1: Do you have any more examples of like what actually

558
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: went on between you? I'm just curious about like the

559
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: various tactics that were used.

560
00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 3: I don't know.

561
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 1: I just want to know more about it.

562
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 3: Well, I think the best thing I can tell you,

563
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 3: the funniest thing, is that he told me his greatest

564
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,639
Speaker 3: success story, which I find laughable and I think you

565
00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:27,280
Speaker 3: will too, so, and he would bring this up often,

566
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,199
Speaker 3: and I kept trying to like kind of insinuate that

567
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 3: maybe this wasn't a success story, that his greatest success

568
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 3: story was that one time this guy came to him.

569
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 3: And this guy was I think in his early twenties

570
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 3: or so, and he thought he was gay, And after

571
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,359
Speaker 3: years of working with this doctor, he realized he wasn't gay.

572
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 3: So this guy goes out into the world, finds a wife,

573
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 3: marries her, has two kids, and only sometimes goes to

574
00:26:55,760 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 3: the mall so that he can check out guys.

575
00:26:59,080 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 4: Wow.

576
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 3: And he talks about that as like, see, I can

577
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 3: fix you, you just have to be willing to try.

578
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: I can make you live in a marriage miserable life and.

579
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 2: That poor woman having to be married to that man.

580
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 2: It's just so epically awful for everyone.

581
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 3: And it's like, does she know about this? Is she

582
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 3: okay with this? Did she sign up for this? Is

583
00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:24,600
Speaker 3: she also gay? Like? What's what's the situation? Right?

584
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:25,399
Speaker 4: Right?

585
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 1: Oh God?

586
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,400
Speaker 3: This is a real life, Like, this is a real person,

587
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 3: and apparently this person still is suckered into going to

588
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:36,120
Speaker 3: this doctor. And I think one part of conversion conversion

589
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 3: therapy that we don't talk about is just the fact

590
00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:42,920
Speaker 3: that it's a scam and it's an expensive scam. And

591
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 3: whether it be families that are scammed out of thousands

592
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 3: of dollars and ruined relationships that are caused from this,

593
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,320
Speaker 3: or be adults who are scammed into spending thousands of dollars,

594
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 3: I mean, like this is something that valued church leaders,

595
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 3: who people turn to for all types of help in

596
00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 3: their life, are pointing towards this false type of help.

597
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 3: Right who then people are so desperate because they're told

598
00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:12,600
Speaker 3: over and over that you can't be gay, you absolutely

599
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,840
Speaker 3: can't be so they'll do anything to rid themselves from

600
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 3: this embarrassment. We'll spend thousands of dollars and go through

601
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 3: all this anguish, so then come out the other end

602
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 3: in debt and still gay, right.

603
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 1: Right, right, Like whatever you believe about whether being gay

604
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: is wrong, which obviously it is not, like it's not

605
00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:34,760
Speaker 1: gonna work anyway.

606
00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 3: So exactly, And like there are a lot of people

607
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 3: who go about their lives either always thinking that being

608
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: gay is bad, or themselves being gay and still thinking

609
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 3: it's bad. But to your point, at the end of

610
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 3: the day, they're still gay.

611
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: Still one of my family members is still quite religious,

612
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: and that person will say to me sometimes, I'm nothing

613
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 1: wrong with people being gay is just if you act

614
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: on it. As long as they're not acting on it,

615
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 1: in the eyes of the Lord, it's okay.

616
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: And that's what the That's what I would go back

617
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 3: and forth with, which with the conversion therapist on as

618
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:12,040
Speaker 3: he would try to tell me like, okay, okay, so

619
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 3: even if you think you're going to be gay your

620
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 3: whole life, you can still be celibate. This is your

621
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 3: cross to bear. You can just be celibate your whole life.

622
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:19,920
Speaker 3: And I would try to explain to him that, like,

623
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 3: if this God is real, why would he want me

624
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 3: to be living a lonely lonely life, and he's like, well,

625
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:30,719
Speaker 3: lots of people do it, you know, it's just your

626
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 3: cross to bear. And I tried to explain to him that,

627
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 3: like kind of the whole point of life and the

628
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 3: whole central theme of life is love. Yeah, so why

629
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 3: would I not be able to partake in this? But

630
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,120
Speaker 3: you can? And then I would then point to him like, okay,

631
00:29:44,200 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 3: so what if I told you that you are not

632
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,840
Speaker 3: allowed to love your wife and then by extension your kids,

633
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: are you then just going to do it? And he's like, well,

634
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 3: that God didn't decide that, And I was like, well,

635
00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 3: what if he did, what would you do? Would you

636
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 3: denounce your wife? Would you never think about a woman again?

637
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 3: Or would you live your life as it is natural? Right?

638
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: Did you believe?

639
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 3: Well, God didn't tell me that, Like okay, well God's.

640
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 1: Not telling you this, yeah yeah, really did you believe

641
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: in heaven and Hell? And at this point, yeah.

642
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. And that would also

643
00:30:18,520 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 3: be part of the fear mongering. It's trying to tell

644
00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 3: me like okay, well, like if you choose this, you're

645
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 3: choosing hell.

646
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:27,480
Speaker 4: So you know, what a perfectly chill thing to be

647
00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 4: learning about as a young man.

648
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 3: It's crazy. And when you go back to just being

649
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 3: Lutheran as a whole, when you're confirmed, you have to

650
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,560
Speaker 3: you know, swear by different statements and you have to

651
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:42,320
Speaker 3: like collectively agree to these statements, one of which is

652
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 3: you will die for the Church if necessary, Oh my God,

653
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: and that at the end of the day, whether it

654
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 3: be you or the Church, the Church comes first. Yes,

655
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 3: and you will, you know, to your dying breath, except

656
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 3: the Church as you know, supreme. So I mean like

657
00:30:58,600 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 3: you're giving your life away.

658
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's like even all the stories

659
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: that I'm sure are really stressed in Lutheranism that were

660
00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 2: you know, just just like all of like Abraham having

661
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 2: to sacrifice his son and all of those very like

662
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 2: I can see your therapist being like, if God told

663
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 2: me I had to give up my family, I would

664
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: because that's the kind of stuff my family would say, like, yeah, exactly,

665
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: daughter will have to fight against mother and son against mine.

666
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:26,800
Speaker 4: It's terrifying stuff like for it.

667
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, a few things are more heartbreaking to me than

668
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: this idea of and whatever you believe. Like, I'm sure

669
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: we have religious listeners, so I don't want to alienate y'all,

670
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: but it's sad to me to have this idea of

671
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 1: an afterlife that you are aspiring to, you know, have

672
00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 1: be great or whatever, and in the process you completely

673
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: miss your own life and you completely lose out on

674
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 1: all of the joy because what if it's not what

675
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: if it's not.

676
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 3: Well, it's funny because they actually point that directly at

677
00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: us in the opposite way, and it's called path Scal's

678
00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 3: wager and skills wager basically says it's worth it to

679
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 3: go your life as a Christian because if you're wrong,

680
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 3: you're just gonna then go into nothingness, and you know,

681
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 3: you just wasted your life doing Christian stuff. But if

682
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 3: if you're right, or if if you know the Church

683
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 3: is right, then you went your whole life living how

684
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 3: you wanted. But then you'll go eternity in hell. Right,

685
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 3: so you would much rather live your short life, you know,

686
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 3: in the Christian way.

687
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 4: That certainly makes sense.

688
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 2: I'm putting that in quotes like that, you know, and

689
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: especially when you're little, you're like, oh, okay, I guess

690
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: that's a good idea.

691
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 4: But the day to day realities of.

692
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:47,719
Speaker 2: Not being allowed to think your own thoughts are pretty impossible,

693
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 2: no matter how how you.

694
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, just like living miserably and wanting to die, like,

695
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: h that's not.

696
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 3: A life, no, And it's also just like having your

697
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 3: own thoughts like I remember my biggest pet peeve, and

698
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,840
Speaker 3: I thought this from a very young age and never

699
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 3: was you know, pushed elsewhere from it that people would

700
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 3: ask the pastor in class like so, what do we

701
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 3: believe about this? Or what do we believe about that?

702
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: And I remember in class I would just ask, like,

703
00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 3: why are you asking someone else what you believe? You

704
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 3: could ask the pastor what do you believe about this?

705
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 3: Or what does the church believe about this? But why

706
00:33:28,080 --> 00:33:31,040
Speaker 3: are you saying what we believe? What do I believe?

707
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 4: Is what theyre's right? Right?

708
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 3: What do you believe? Tell me you believe right right?

709
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 4: Oh, I've never even thought of it like that. Yeah.

710
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,479
Speaker 1: One thing I'll say, there are several things i'll say,

711
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 1: but one thing I'll say about Mormonism into their credit

712
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: is that there isn't the heaven hell binary. There's the

713
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: three tiers of heaven, and if you're a sinner but

714
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: you're not like the worst kind of sinner, you'll still

715
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: go to heaven.

716
00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 4: It's just the.

717
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 1: Medium tier and you won't be in the top tier

718
00:33:58,280 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: with all your family.

719
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 2: Fine with that. I am fine with going to the

720
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 2: medium tierr Yeah. Yeah, mine was like lake of fire

721
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: by yourself. You will never see another person, tea like

722
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:11,920
Speaker 2: teeth gnashing in pain.

723
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. The lowest tier of heaven, which is where like

724
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,879
Speaker 1: murderers and pedophiles go, is like the game it was. Yeah,

725
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: was likened to just earth, just like living this regular life.

726
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: So if you're even a little bit better than that,

727
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 1: you still get to live like a pretty amazing afterlife.

728
00:34:30,760 --> 00:34:33,000
Speaker 1: So that's dope. But it didn't matter. Like Lucky, I

729
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: still cried for three hours the first time I had sex,

730
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: and I still like thought I was damned forever because

731
00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 1: it was the worst and next to murder, Like I

732
00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: still thought I was fucked forever. But at least I

733
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 1: didn't think like I won't ever see my family again

734
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: in the afterlife, you know.

735
00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, Drew, I was there with you, really really looking

736
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 2: into the darkness.

737
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:55,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

738
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 3: That's why people go to church still, And that's why

739
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 3: people hold on to these beliefs is for two reasons.

740
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 3: One because they're so fearful of going to hell, and

741
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 3: they just live in fear, and like oh my gosh,

742
00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 3: am I doing enough? Am I good enough to get

743
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 3: into heaven? And then two it's the guilt of family.

744
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 3: And like you'll hear people say like, oh, I still

745
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 3: go to church because you know, my grandma really wants

746
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 3: me to. I don't want to, you know, make her

747
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 3: feel bad, or my parents really want me to. So

748
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 3: you're doing it for someone else who they are probably

749
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 3: doing it for someone else who did it for someone else,

750
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 3: And it's just like everyone's doing it for other people

751
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 3: and not living your own life, right. And some people

752
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 3: love church and they get a lot out of church,

753
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 3: and that's amazing and that's great, but for the people

754
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:40,840
Speaker 3: that get suckered into it, who don't want to right or.

755
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 4: Have a problem.

756
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: Right, Like, if you took the social pressure away, how

757
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: many people would actually be actively going to church? Not

758
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 1: nearly as many, I would imagine.

759
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then maybe the church would be better because

760
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,880
Speaker 3: it'd be people who legitimately want to be there.

761
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,800
Speaker 1: Right right, It'd be living their authentic lives.

762
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: Totally, So the church would be better if it didn't

763
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: do all the social pressure. Wouldn't have as many people,

764
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 3: but the people there would be a lot more gun

765
00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 3: ho about it right.

766
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: So how did the journey sort of wrap itself up

767
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 1: with these conversion therapy.

768
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,480
Speaker 3: It was a combination of me just deciding that this

769
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 3: just can't go on any longer and that I was

770
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,840
Speaker 3: just sick of it, and then also me just gaining

771
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 3: more freedom through working and getting great grades in high school.

772
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 3: I kind of just hit a rock bottom point in

773
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:35,960
Speaker 3: the conversion therapy cycle where it was after my second

774
00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 3: time seriously seriously planning to do suicide. But I just realized,

775
00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 3: like this isn't sustainable, Like eventually, like I'm going to

776
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,239
Speaker 3: give in and I will be done. So my only

777
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 3: way to get out of this is through continuing to

778
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:53,399
Speaker 3: get really good grades and to bust my butt at

779
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 3: work and save as much money as I can to

780
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 3: go to college away from here and to get my

781
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,040
Speaker 3: own life. And through my seven dollars and twenty five

782
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 3: cent an hour job, I ended up saving seventeen thousand

783
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 3: dollars by the time.

784
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: Oh my god, you what I.

785
00:37:12,239 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 3: Was working thirty five to forty hours a week at

786
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,319
Speaker 3: air Apostle while in high school, Yes, you were. Over

787
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 3: summers I had work seventy to eighty hours a week,

788
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 3: saving almost all of the money that way I can

789
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:25,840
Speaker 3: go to college in a city.

790
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'm so proud of you.

791
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 2: If you sold me so many T shirts, Drew, I

792
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: would have just been like covered in all those.

793
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 3: Yeah oh yeah, oh yes, and the jeans everything.

794
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 4: Holy shit, that's amazing.

795
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: It always goes back to that same thing, right, like you,

796
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 1: you had that like little thread to the outside world

797
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 1: where it wasn't all religion all the time. And like you,

798
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: you were starting to assert your independence in that way, right,

799
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:51,279
Speaker 1: I'm sure in.

800
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 3: That how long I loved work. I loved work so

801
00:37:54,200 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 3: much because I could be around people in the secular world.

802
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 3: I went to a Lutheran aid school that fed into

803
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 3: my Lutheran high school, and it was all the same

804
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,799
Speaker 3: network of people, and I really never associated with people

805
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:10,240
Speaker 3: outside of my extended family who weren't in that Lutheran bubble.

806
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 3: And when I started working, I was able to interact

807
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 3: with both my coworkers and just customers of the general public.

808
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 3: And while it was still you know, people living in

809
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,920
Speaker 3: Fort Wayne, Indiana, it was by and large a lot

810
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,880
Speaker 3: more secular and a lot more open minded than in

811
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:29,760
Speaker 3: my Lutheran school. And I remember during the twenty sixteen election,

812
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 3: my assistant manager at air Apostle. You know, it was

813
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 3: I think the night before the election, and we were

814
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 3: talking about like who we wanted to win, and I

815
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:41,280
Speaker 3: was just shocked there was someone else in the world

816
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 3: that wanted Hillary to win over Donald Trump.

817
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:45,520
Speaker 1: Wow.

818
00:38:45,520 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 3: And it was just like this eye open experience of like,

819
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 3: maybe there are more people who are open minded out there,

820
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 3: I just haven't found them yet.

821
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:54,240
Speaker 4: So what about your parents.

822
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 3: As far as politics goes, No, Like, as.

823
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 4: Far as them, what did they say to you saying

824
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 4: I think I'm done with this shit? Yeah?

825
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,440
Speaker 3: Oh, they they were upset, but I think at the

826
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:06,680
Speaker 3: end of the day, they they have gone through their

827
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 3: own journey of growth, and I think it was at

828
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 3: that point that they kind of acknowledge and realized that, like,

829
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 3: I'm not going to change, that this wasn't a phase.

830
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 3: Because they were told by people that like, if you

831
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 3: just keep at it with this, he'll change, you know,

832
00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:21,920
Speaker 3: he'll end up being straight. This is just a phase.

833
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:24,600
Speaker 3: And then they realized this wasn't a phase. And then

834
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 3: more of the you know, more of their belief was

835
00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 3: will we just hope that he won't end up with

836
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,839
Speaker 3: the dude and that he'll just like be alone and

837
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,520
Speaker 3: be celibate. But at least they acknowledge that, like I'm gay.

838
00:39:38,719 --> 00:39:41,359
Speaker 3: They also acknowledged eventually that I was born gay. At

839
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 3: first it was a choice, but they realized that I

840
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 3: was born this way that, you know. I tried to

841
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 3: explain to them all the hell I'm going through right now.

842
00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 3: Do you really think I would have chosen this? Because

843
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 3: I would be dumb too. I was on such a

844
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 3: great path before. Why would I choose this?

845
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 1: That is always the thing, right, Like, no one wants

846
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: to be ostracized from their you to be like this

847
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: is a pain that no one would choose.

848
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 3: Like I prayed for years and years to be straight.

849
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 3: And I remember like being young, like being in like

850
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 3: middle school and stuff, and I would like watch porn

851
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 3: and then afterwards be like I'm so sorry, God, I'm

852
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:19,120
Speaker 3: so sorry, like, don't let me ever do this again,

853
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 3: And then being a little boy going through puberty, it

854
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 3: would happen again, and then I would just try to

855
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:25,960
Speaker 3: pray that away.

856
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 4: H porn in prayer.

857
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:36,799
Speaker 2: Oh are you dating now? Do you have guilt about it?

858
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 2: Are you like a free man?

859
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 3: Oh? Yeah, I'm totally a free man right now. Have

860
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 3: no guilt?

861
00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 1: About it.

862
00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: Like my day life, you know, very happy and have

863
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 3: been for you know, several several years. I'm not dating anyone,

864
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 3: so like if there's a hot boy out there.

865
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:56,399
Speaker 1: And he's very cute, you guys, very very okay, yes you.

866
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,440
Speaker 3: But yeah, I'm just living my single life, trying to

867
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,240
Speaker 3: build myself so that by the time I do find someone,

868
00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 3: I'll be at my best place. Yeah.

869
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,799
Speaker 1: I love that. I want to know, like if if

870
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,240
Speaker 1: there's anyone out there who's like maybe gone through something

871
00:41:11,280 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 1: similar or trying to figure out their sexuality, Like, do

872
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:16,359
Speaker 1: you have any advice for someone like that?

873
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:19,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. I think the best thing you can do

874
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 3: is just spend time on your own thinking about who

875
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 3: you are and what you want out of life, maybe

876
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 3: even writing that down, and then just sticking with it

877
00:41:28,040 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: because at the end of the day, no one's going

878
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 3: to know you better than you, and people will try

879
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 3: to tell you things about yourself, and they'll try to

880
00:41:34,400 --> 00:41:36,640
Speaker 3: tell you the right and the wrong, but at the

881
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,600
Speaker 3: end of the day, you know what's right for yourself,

882
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 3: and as difficult as it is, just stick with it

883
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 3: and just keep going and eventually you're going to get

884
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 3: out and be loud and be proud love it.

885
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, the lesson of just like finding something that's yours,

886
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 1: like finding whether it's a job, whether it's taking a class,

887
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: whether it's like sneaking into Reddit like whatever, is like

888
00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: finding something that's yours to give you perspective because it

889
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,400
Speaker 1: can be so isolating when you're in a community of

890
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 1: people who just aren't like you.

891
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 3: And also I would just definitely say reach out, like

892
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 3: reach out to people who are gay in your life

893
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,879
Speaker 3: or online or wherever, because at the end of the day,

894
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,120
Speaker 3: to some extent, we've all gone through stuff like this,

895
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 3: and we know what it's like to be on our own,

896
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 3: and we know what it's like to not see the greater,

897
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,320
Speaker 3: grander world out there. So we're willing, we're all willing

898
00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 3: to guide you, to mentor you and to help you

899
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 3: be who you truly are. Mmm.

900
00:42:33,400 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 4: Oh no, true. I'm so happy that you exist.

901
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,560
Speaker 2: Thank you for being so fucking strong and like paving

902
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 2: the way.

903
00:42:42,080 --> 00:42:44,080
Speaker 4: It's awesome, of course.

904
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 3: And I just at this point, I'm just living in

905
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 3: such a happy life. I consider everything at this point

906
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 3: bonus time, because I truly did not believe that I

907
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,120
Speaker 3: would be alive past like eighteen, I had come to

908
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,880
Speaker 3: terms like with my life, everything I had done, and

909
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 3: like really acknowledge the fact that, like, Okay, Drew, You're

910
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:04,839
Speaker 3: not going to be alive much longer. And I think

911
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 3: once you come to terms with that and then you

912
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 3: end up living one, there's a lot of imposter syndrome

913
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,279
Speaker 3: that just goes on all the time. But then two,

914
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,600
Speaker 3: you just come to this realization that, like, I lived

915
00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 3: a great life already and anything that I do now

916
00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 3: is just amazing. It's just bonus times. So like if

917
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 3: I am late to something, if I don't get a job,

918
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 3: if something bad happens, it's not the end of the

919
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 3: world because at the end of the day, I shouldn't

920
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 3: have been here to begin with. And I'm just grateful

921
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,280
Speaker 3: that I'm still here and still you know pumping.

922
00:43:38,920 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, what incredible perspective and what resilience it shows.

923
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

924
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like there could be such a darker

925
00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,800
Speaker 1: path to go down after that, and you chose the

926
00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: light and that's awesome.

927
00:43:52,280 --> 00:43:52,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

928
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:54,759
Speaker 1: What is your relationship like with your parents now?

929
00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 3: It's ever evolving. So my mom and I are on

930
00:43:58,320 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 3: really good terms. We talk weekly for hours on the phone.

931
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,000
Speaker 3: They all still live in Indiana and everything, and I

932
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 3: go home for holidays or like at random times throughout

933
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 3: the year. But my mom and I are really good.

934
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 3: She's come to terms with the fact that I'm gay.

935
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 3: She supports me, and her only concerns are like my

936
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 3: safety and well being, whether it be through you know,

937
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,560
Speaker 3: like hate crimes or you know, like she in her

938
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 3: gen X view like aids and stuff like that. So

939
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: she's more concerned for my well being than for the

940
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 3: fact that I'm gay as a whole. My dad is

941
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 3: more of like a work in progress, and he has,

942
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 3: you know, shown tremendous growth from you know, where we

943
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 3: were at originally, but there's still a lot more growth

944
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 3: to go.

945
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have an extended family member who transitioned like

946
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago, and their parents are definitely

947
00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 1: pretty early on in the acceptance journey, and it's something

948
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 1: that is it's challenging to watch.

949
00:44:56,800 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 3: As Yeah, and to anyone going through that, you know,

950
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 3: just don't forget that, like it takes time. Like at

951
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,839
Speaker 3: the end of the day, you know, I came out

952
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 3: when I was fifteen, and I had fifteen years to

953
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:10,239
Speaker 3: come to terms with the fact that I was gay

954
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 3: before I was ready to say something, and for your

955
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 3: parents or for your loved ones or your friends, they

956
00:45:16,400 --> 00:45:19,359
Speaker 3: thought they knew someone for fifteen years or however old

957
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 3: you are, and then all of a sudden that you know,

958
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 3: worldview just switched all of a sudden. So it might

959
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 3: take hopefully not the full fifteen years or whatever, but

960
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 3: it might take some time for them to come to

961
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 3: terms with things and for them to readjust who they

962
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 3: think you are. I mean, like with my mom, Like,

963
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 3: we've had a whole bunch of growth in the last

964
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 3: seven years, and we just had a conversation a couple

965
00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:46,279
Speaker 3: of weeks ago, a conversation that like, I never could

966
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 3: have imagined having when I was fifteen, and it took

967
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 3: seven years to have that conversation, but we finally did,

968
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: and we're in a much better place now.

969
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: Because well, that's awesome. I hope your dad joins her

970
00:45:58,200 --> 00:45:59,000
Speaker 1: on that journey.

971
00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you will eventually a lot of his

972
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 3: barriers are politically based on top of the whole Christianity thing,

973
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 3: so it'll take more work. But I think as long

974
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 3: as I keep pushing and I keep challenging him and

975
00:46:13,760 --> 00:46:15,680
Speaker 3: educating him, eventually he'll come around.

976
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 1: That's great and for some people, your family members might

977
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: not and you, like, I think that's okay, and you

978
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: don't have to, oh for sure, you know, like work

979
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:28,080
Speaker 1: so hard to make them.

980
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 3: One of the beauties of being gays just the concept

981
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 3: of having a chosen family, especially around the holidays, where

982
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:37,239
Speaker 3: like you might not have a safe place to go

983
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 3: home to, but you've made a group of friends, a

984
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 3: group of neighbors, students, classmates, whoever, that have just become

985
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 3: your chosen family. So even if your family does never

986
00:46:48,200 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 3: come around, you'll still always have your chosen family for support.

987
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, Drew, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much.

988
00:46:55,719 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: Is there anything final you'd like to say or anywhere

989
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: people can find you online?

990
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely. So I think just at the end of

991
00:47:03,000 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 3: the day, we all have to come together and acknowledge

992
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 3: that conversion therapy is just something that we need to

993
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 3: throw in the past and commit ourselves to never allowing

994
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 3: to happen to any more youth. As I said earlier,

995
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 3: ninety one percent of people who go through conversion therapy

996
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,879
Speaker 3: end up having severe suicidal ideation, and in my view,

997
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 3: it is a form of child abuse. Canada actually just

998
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 3: banned conversion therapy and other countries are too.

999
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:30,440
Speaker 1: Oh my god, wow, amazing.

1000
00:47:30,680 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, very exciting news. There's efforts in the UK to

1001
00:47:34,160 --> 00:47:36,399
Speaker 3: ban it, and the US is lagging, and I think

1002
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 3: we just need to call on our representatives and senators

1003
00:47:39,560 --> 00:47:43,080
Speaker 3: to take action and to ban conversion therapy at the

1004
00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:47,080
Speaker 3: federal level because it's still legal in most states. So

1005
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 3: if you want to join me in that fight, you

1006
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:53,919
Speaker 3: can find me on Twitter, on Instagram wherever my name

1007
00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 3: is at Drew Amstetz dr EWA ms t U t Z.

1008
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: Awesome, Thank you, Drew.

1009
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,279
Speaker 3: You Drew, of course, so here we are.

1010
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 1: Megan, pretty sure you would not be interested in participating

1011
00:48:08,360 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: in conversion therapy.

1012
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 4: Definitely not. No, awful.

1013
00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious, since you have a background in studying

1014
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: psychology and also being a therapist for a period, did

1015
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,319
Speaker 1: you come across anyone who thought that this was a

1016
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:26,359
Speaker 1: good idea or was like perpetuating this kind of thing.

1017
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: I had a client once who went through something similar,

1018
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:36,840
Speaker 2: but also religion was a huge factor I'm remembering, but

1019
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: no one had actually been through conversion therapy. I just

1020
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 2: had a client who was religious and gay and hated

1021
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 2: it about himself.

1022
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:47,400
Speaker 4: Oh I know.

1023
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes I'll look up therapists, I mean whatever. I have

1024
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 1: my two therapists now and I'm happy with them. But

1025
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: for a long time I was trying trying to find

1026
00:48:55,000 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: someone good, and so I was just fucking scouring psychology today,

1027
00:48:59,680 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 1: like every day there is there anyone new on my insurance?

1028
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 1: Is there anyone new? Turns out no, I'm paying completely

1029
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,080
Speaker 1: out of pocket and fucking sucks. But I would find

1030
00:49:07,120 --> 00:49:10,800
Speaker 1: people whose profiles would look normal, and then I would

1031
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: like start to read about some of their specialties or

1032
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 1: start to read about some of the things that they believe,

1033
00:49:17,200 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: and there would be just some awful yeah, I mean whatever.

1034
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,319
Speaker 1: Of course, there are religious psychologists or therapists who are great,

1035
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,319
Speaker 1: but some of them know and some of them are,

1036
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,279
Speaker 1: you know, perpetuating stuff we've talked about before, which is

1037
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,240
Speaker 1: this idea of like recovering yeah, Satanic memories and stuff,

1038
00:49:32,280 --> 00:49:35,520
Speaker 1: which is not cool, you guys, it's not cool. It's

1039
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 1: so I don't know, It's just it's always crazy to

1040
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 1: me that anyone can just it doesn't matter if you

1041
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 1: actually know anything or if your beliefs are actually rational

1042
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:46,120
Speaker 1: in any way, like you can still just go get

1043
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 1: that degree and like have that kind of power over someone's.

1044
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:50,720
Speaker 4: Life like that, right, that's insane.

1045
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 1: So anyway, don't trust anyone, No, you, guys, I don't

1046
00:49:57,080 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying other than that conversion therapy is

1047
00:49:59,480 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 1: bad and supportive loving mental health professionals are good, I mean,

1048
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: not loving, but you know appropriately you guys, it's too early.

1049
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 1: I got like three hours of sleep last night. Just

1050
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:15,720
Speaker 1: give me a break.

1051
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,840
Speaker 2: Oh fuck, well, listen. We hope that you guys enjoyed

1052
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:22,520
Speaker 2: the episode. We hope that you guys have an amazing week.

1053
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:24,480
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you next week.

1054
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:25,759
Speaker 4: Remember to follow your

1055
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: Gut, watch out for red flats, and never ever trust

1056
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:35,839
Speaker 2: me me Bye,