1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,440 Speaker 1: Too Much Information is a production of I Heart Radio. 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to Too Much Information, the show 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: that brings you the secret history and little loan fascinating 4 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,919 Speaker 1: facts behind your favorite music, movies, TV shows, and more. 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: We're two guys with too much free time on our hands. 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: My name is Jordan Runtuck and I'm Alex Hegel, and 7 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,960 Speaker 1: today we're taking a kid Marvin Gay's undisputed magnum opus, 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:31,160 Speaker 1: What's Going On, which recently turned fifty years old. Rolling 9 00:00:31,200 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: Stone put it at the top of their semi regularly 10 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:38,760 Speaker 1: updated Greatest Albums of All Time list, in which felt 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,520 Speaker 1: appropriate considering we were at the height of the Black 12 00:00:41,560 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: Lives Matter protests and it's an album that has a 13 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 1: lot to say about those kinds of issues and still 14 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: feels eerily and sadly relevant. And it's such a weirdly sprawling, 15 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: ambitious record for that time period in Motown. Super personal 16 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:01,639 Speaker 1: for Marvin. I know, what, what more can you say 17 00:01:01,640 --> 00:01:04,559 Speaker 1: about it? Yeah? I mean it's really the first soul 18 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 1: concept album done, and it's just done on the symphonic 19 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: scope with you called prog soul soul. Yeah. Not enough 20 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:15,959 Speaker 1: organ on it enough? Yeah, not enough keyboards. I mean, 21 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:20,000 Speaker 1: it's just got these incredibly sophisticated orchestrations and jazz arrangements 22 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:22,400 Speaker 1: and yeah, like you said, I mean lyrically it works 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 1: on a global level, tackling social issues, but also it 24 00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 1: taps into Marvin Gay's intense inner pain around this period, 25 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: pain so pain. And some of it was Berry Gordon's fault. Yes, amazingly, 26 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: and we'll get into this later. Motown chief Berry Gordy 27 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: thought that it was the worst thing he'd ever heard 28 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:46,559 Speaker 1: in his life, which is rude, very rude, very rude. 29 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: He was ready to toss it on the scrap heap, 30 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,880 Speaker 1: and the world almost never heard What's going on? But thankfully, thankfully, 31 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: Stevie Wonder came to the rescue. Well, as with most 32 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: most things in this in this god awful world, Stevie 33 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: Wonder made it better. We'll talk more about how Stevie 34 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 1: Wonder saved the day, Marvin Gay's unorthodox pre singing rituals, 35 00:02:07,720 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: and how a series of accidents led to the most 36 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,200 Speaker 1: iconic part of What's going On. Here's everything you didn't 37 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:25,320 Speaker 1: know about Marvin Gaye's classic What's going On. So it's 38 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: the dawn of the seventies and Marvin gay was at 39 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: a crossroads. Yes, it's amazing. Every one of these episodes 40 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 1: we find our artists at a crossroads, and he's poised 41 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:40,560 Speaker 1: to record what's going on, arguably his crowning achievement, not 42 00:02:40,639 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: to mention an incredible string of records like Let's get 43 00:02:43,240 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: It On and I Want You Here, my dear. This 44 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: is arguably his crowning period. And it's interesting when you 45 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 1: consider that Marvin Gaye was about to abandon his music 46 00:02:52,560 --> 00:02:55,119 Speaker 1: career at the dawn of the seventies and try out 47 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: for the NFL. This is such a sweet story. It's 48 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:00,840 Speaker 1: so pure. Thank You's just like I can do this, 49 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:04,679 Speaker 1: I can join the Yeah, it's so. I mean, let's 50 00:03:04,680 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: get into Marvin's head, which is a scary place right now, 51 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:09,120 Speaker 1: and figure out why he was ready to because at 52 00:03:09,120 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: this point the donald seventies, he's Motown's biggest male star. 53 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:14,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I heard it through the grape vine. Was 54 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,000 Speaker 1: a number one smashed two years earlier. I mean, he's 55 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: got a lot of hits under his belt, so this 56 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: is a really rough time in his life. His duet 57 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: partner Tammy Terrell that he sung ain't no mountain high enough, 58 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: ain't nothing like the real thing. You're all I need 59 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: to get by all these great songs had just died. 60 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: And given his troubled relationships with well everyone but especially women, uh, 61 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: it seemed like his relationship with Tammy Terrell was like 62 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: one of his few uncomplicated friendships in his life. Um, 63 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: and they were incredibly close as people and as musicians. 64 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: She she was a veteran of James Brown's band, so 65 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,880 Speaker 1: she pushed them to greater heights on stage. So they 66 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: were really really close. And during her performance in October 67 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty seven, Tammy collapsed into his arms on 68 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: stage and she was rushed to a hospital and doctors 69 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 1: found a brain tumor and she died in March of 70 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy and she was just twenty four. And this 71 00:04:05,000 --> 00:04:08,520 Speaker 1: absolutely devastated Marvin. I mean I found a while back 72 00:04:08,560 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: online there was some stems for the motown stuff, like 73 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: you can find isolated tracks of them. I'm just getting 74 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: goose bumps talking about it, because, like you listened to 75 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: their vocal takes on Ain't No Mountain high enough. I mean, 76 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: every performance on that song is a masterpiece. Like the 77 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: baseline is beautiful, the drum parts are incredible, even the 78 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: little like hand cut tambourine parts. Yeah. But man, the 79 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:33,919 Speaker 1: two of them on that song, like those vocal takes 80 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: are Yeah, they pushed each other to be so much 81 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:39,599 Speaker 1: better than some of their parts. Yeah, and they I 82 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 1: mean they were really close. And so her death, I mean, 83 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:44,000 Speaker 1: you could argue that he really never got over it. 84 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: It sent him into a deep state of depression, or 85 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: you could just say exacerbated his depression that he lived 86 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: with constantly. And um, this depression fueled his worsening cocaine abuse. 87 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: Uh Around this time, he actually attempted suicide, but the 88 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: gun was wrestled away from by Motown chief Barry Gordy's 89 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: father of all people. So this was really in the 90 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: late sixty nine early seventy. This was a rough time 91 00:05:08,839 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: in his life and he was considering leaving the music 92 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,239 Speaker 1: industry for good. And he'd seen how Motown had really 93 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: kind of destroyed the lives of people like Florence Ballard 94 00:05:17,400 --> 00:05:20,520 Speaker 1: from the Supremes and Paul Williams and the Temptations, both 95 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,840 Speaker 1: of whom would die early deaths in the early seventies. Uh. 96 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,159 Speaker 1: So he was thinking of getting out and at this 97 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: point he befriended members of the Detroit Lions hometown NFL team, 98 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: and they sort of coaxed him out of his you know, 99 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: darkened coked in and convince him to go outside get 100 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:41,839 Speaker 1: some exercise, and this sort of encouragement morphed very quickly 101 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 1: into Marvin's brief but passionate obsession with trying out for 102 00:05:45,279 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: the NFL. Uh. And I guess the Detroit Lions coach 103 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:52,480 Speaker 1: had made like a jokey comment at some like postgame 104 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 1: celebration to Marvin, like, oh, yeah, you know, work out 105 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 1: you can try out for us next season, and the 106 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: light went on in dead yeah. He apparently he took 107 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: it seriously, and he was I guess, unbothered by the 108 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:05,839 Speaker 1: fact that he was thirty one years old and he 109 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,840 Speaker 1: never played the game before. But again, he was hanging 110 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: out with actual NFL players and they gave him tips 111 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,080 Speaker 1: on training and what they were doing in their preseason workouts. 112 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: So he ran like six miles a day and did 113 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,839 Speaker 1: weight training at East Michigan University and learned all the 114 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:23,880 Speaker 1: past plays I guess even quit smoking. And he worked 115 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: at this for like six months and became absolutely convinced 116 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,599 Speaker 1: that he was going to make the team, despite a 117 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: chorus of his Motown friends telling him that, you know, 118 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: it takes more than six months of weight training and 119 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 1: running to get into the NFL. Um but he had heart, 120 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: but he but he had I mean he looked the 121 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 1: part too, Like he bulked up to like two pounds. 122 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:47,159 Speaker 1: I mean he looked good. But I mean the real 123 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 1: problem was nobody in the Lions management was willing to 124 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: risk the repercussions of like injuring a national treasure and 125 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:57,479 Speaker 1: most likely being sued by Barry Gordy, who would absolutely 126 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 1: sue someone into the ground for this. So in the end, 127 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: the Lions didn't let him try out, and Marvin didn't 128 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 1: take the news well at all, and he insisted to 129 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 1: his dying day that he could have been a contender 130 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:10,840 Speaker 1: on the field. One of his friends at Motown said 131 00:07:11,160 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: he was crushed when they told him he couldn't play, 132 00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: but he would have been crushed for real if he 133 00:07:15,640 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: had played. Sometimes life is like that, It's true. So 134 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: the Lion's running back and now far told ESPN at 135 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:26,280 Speaker 1: one point he said, Marvin wasn't a gifted athlete. Marvin 136 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: was a great singer, you know how, the things that 137 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 1: you really can't do. You either stick with it or 138 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: try something else. That's kind of who Marvin was. But 139 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: he was sincere about it, I know, so sweet. So 140 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: Marvin begrudgingly goes back to his superstar day job at Motown. 141 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: You know. So he stays at Motown, but he starts 142 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 1: rebelling around this time from the show Busy Veneer that 143 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: Motown demanded. He stopped wearing ties and started wearing track suits, 144 00:07:57,600 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: and he grew a beard, which at the time apparently 145 00:08:00,040 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: wasn't common for black men. And he had a quote 146 00:08:02,400 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: years later he said black men weren't supposed to look 147 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: overtly masculine. I spent my entire career looking harmless, and 148 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: the look no longer fit. I wasn't harmless. I was 149 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: piste off in America, rightfully. So this was just after 150 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: the shooting of Martin Luther King in nineteen sixty eight 151 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: and Pobby Kennedy later that year, the violence in the 152 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: streets at Detroit in nineteen sixty seven, the riots in 153 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:27,200 Speaker 1: Chicago during the Democratic National Convention, the murder at Altamont 154 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,160 Speaker 1: Charles Manson, I mean, the murder at Kent State University 155 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: in May of nineteen seventy. All these things are going on, 156 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 1: the streets are on fire, and this sets the stage 157 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,760 Speaker 1: for what's going on in the summer of nineteen seventy. 158 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: I think it's in the Motown movie Standing in the 159 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: Shadows about the session players that um there were three 160 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 1: guitarists and a lot of these and the one white 161 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: guy and he talked about they called themselves the Oreo 162 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: guitar section because it was the two the two black 163 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 1: guys were seated on either side of the white guy. 164 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: But they talked about during those riots they had to 165 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: like smuggle him out of the black neighborhood in Detroit, 166 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 1: like they I think they threw a code or something 167 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,560 Speaker 1: over his head and like tossed him into a car. 168 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 1: And because they were like if you're out, if you 169 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: they see like a white guy out on these like 170 00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,000 Speaker 1: you'll you'll be torn limb from limb. So yeah, such 171 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 1: is the climate of Detroit at this point. The song 172 00:09:14,520 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: itself was originally written by Obie Benson of the Four Tops, 173 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: who had witnessed cops and riot gear beating up some 174 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: kids during a protest which is either in San Francisco 175 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: or People's Park in Berkeley in May of sixty nine, 176 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: and Benson fleshed out an early version of the song 177 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 1: with songwriter Al Cleveland, who wrote a second to that 178 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: emotion a Great Motown Songs, and took it to the 179 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: rest of the four tops who passed. They were not 180 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:42,320 Speaker 1: interested in it, he said, My partners told me it 181 00:09:42,360 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 1: was a protest song. I said, no, man, it's a 182 00:09:44,960 --> 00:09:48,480 Speaker 1: love song about love and understanding. I'm not protesting. I 183 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:50,760 Speaker 1: want to know what's going on. But they never really 184 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:54,440 Speaker 1: understood what was happening, so they then he I guess 185 00:09:54,440 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: he took it to Joan Bayaz next, who also passed. 186 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: I'm interesting. I'm not thing. I love Joan Bias, but 187 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: I don't A Joan Bias version of this song would 188 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 1: have been so like very different, meaning very different. So 189 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,440 Speaker 1: then Benson and Al Cleveland were playing golf with Marvin 190 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:15,800 Speaker 1: Gay as one though not football. That's fine, he's never 191 00:10:15,800 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: showed me a football again. What was another sport? What's 192 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 1: the least football like sports? There is bowling? No, it's 193 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: too nice a day, alright, golf. So this song came up, 194 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 1: and I guess they played him with demo once they 195 00:10:29,800 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 1: got back to their house, and it's it was that 196 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: was what he was searching for. You know, it was 197 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,640 Speaker 1: Marvin was affected by the war in Vietnam obviously everything 198 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,080 Speaker 1: you just all the horrible events. You just reeled off, 199 00:10:41,600 --> 00:10:43,680 Speaker 1: and he would he would say later, I realized I 200 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: had to put my own fantasies behind me if I 201 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: wanted to write songs that would reach the souls of people, 202 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,480 Speaker 1: I wanted them to take a look at what was 203 00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: happening in the world, basically becoming a political artist. You know, 204 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,080 Speaker 1: the whole thing at Motown, especially right in this era, 205 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: is that Gordon's whole thing was like, you guys have 206 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: to look super polished, non threatening. Didn't he have, like 207 00:11:04,200 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: he ran a charms the finishing school. Yeah. Yeah, So, 208 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: and then Marvin started showing up. I mean, we'll get 209 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: into the whole tangled almost anibal relationship between Marvin Gay 210 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,160 Speaker 1: and by Glory a little later. But like he said, 211 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 1: Marvin started showing up at press conferences and stuff with 212 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: like Malcolm X's biography and Soul on Ice by Eldridge Clever, 213 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: and stuff like poking out of his jacket or his 214 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: pants or something like very obvious not even so silent 215 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: protests about where he was at because yeah, I mean 216 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 1: that they would literally teach you how to speak and 217 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: it was like a charm school. And he said, so 218 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:39,319 Speaker 1: for the first time, I really felt like I had 219 00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,640 Speaker 1: something to say. But that's something did not include a 220 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: question mark. One of the changes he made was to 221 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: take the question marked out that Benson hadn't the title 222 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: because he wasn't no longer a question. Song was a statement, 223 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: and you know, as Marvin Gay is entitled to do, 224 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: he rejiggered the melody and reworked it lyrics which reflect 225 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: on his brother Frank's experience as a soldier in Vietnam. 226 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 1: He would get these letters home from Frankie and about 227 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 1: these war atrocities, and you know, Marvin was really took 228 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: to heart apparently the description of children eating out of 229 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 1: garbage cans um. Yeah, the idea of kids living on 230 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:23,120 Speaker 1: like what the rest of us deem unworthy and throw away. 231 00:12:23,200 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: That really stuck with him and that became, you know, 232 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: I think something that really crystallized for him what he 233 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: wanted this song that to be about and touch on. Yeah, 234 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: I mean, when you think about it, and that's kind 235 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: of context, it is, it's almost like the things they 236 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: carried or like one of these other great like networks 237 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: of narrative war fiction because it is such a visual song. Yeah, 238 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: I mean it really, I mean that's kind of what 239 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:47,080 Speaker 1: Marvin's I think great gift of the song was. I mean, 240 00:12:47,120 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: aside from taking the the question mark out of the title, 241 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: which absolutely did change its meaning, and tweaking the melody 242 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: a bit, he made it more of a story than 243 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: a song. You're absolutely right, I mean that's what it's. 244 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 1: It's an incredibly visual piece of music. Interesting to note 245 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: that Marvin apparently never replied to any of these letters 246 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,680 Speaker 1: home from his brother Frankie. Uh, and that was always 247 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: a sore spot for his brother. Well, yeah, I guess. 248 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: I guess none of the g I s believed him 249 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: that he was Marvin case brother, and he kept saying like, 250 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: no, no no, no, he's gonna right back and I'll prove it. 251 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: I'll prove it that like Marvin Gay is actually my brother. 252 00:13:21,000 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 1: And he never did. Um, but I guess Frankie forgave 253 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 1: him when he heard the final version of What's Going On, 254 00:13:27,200 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: which he said, was you know, so personal and heartfelt 255 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,199 Speaker 1: that it it made him weep when he first heard it, 256 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: so he realized that he actually gotten through to his brother, 257 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: and even though he hadn't responded to his letters, you know, 258 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: he wasn't being ignored. And they did patch things up. 259 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: I mean, by the mid seventies he was appearing on stage. 260 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:45,559 Speaker 1: Apparently Marvin Gay used to mess with people by putting 261 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:49,680 Speaker 1: Frankie on stage just to like punk the audiences. And 262 00:13:49,720 --> 00:13:52,120 Speaker 1: he may look very similar. Yeah, and he's on he 263 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:54,320 Speaker 1: does got to give it up. Sings on that and 264 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: apparently did soundtrack work. So yeah, they patched that bit 265 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:05,319 Speaker 1: of brotherly seasons up. But yeah, and continuing into this 266 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: the losing streak, this song kind of had Marvin almost 267 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:10,640 Speaker 1: didn't sing it. He said he wanted to give the 268 00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: tune to a vocal group he was producing from Motown 269 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 1: called the Originals, which is probably one of the most 270 00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: used band names in the New Originals. Um and Obi 271 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: Benson stridently disagreed and gave him an ultimatum which he said, 272 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: I'll give you a percentage of the tune if you 273 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:29,800 Speaker 1: sing it, but if you do it for anybody else, 274 00:14:29,840 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: you can't have none of it. I mean, Alo was like, 275 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: you know what, this will be a huge song if 276 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: you do it, and I will make a lot of money, 277 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: because this was originally my song and if you try 278 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:41,920 Speaker 1: to give it to anybody else and it's basically a 279 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: flop and a waste of a song, then I'm taking 280 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: the song back, so you gotta do it, which is 281 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: kind of amazing. I mean, you know, one of the 282 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: great songs about social justice and income equality came about 283 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: due to shear apparas on Marvin Gaye part like, oh 284 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: if I can't have a percentage of it if I 285 00:14:57,920 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 1: give it to anybody else, so shoot, I guess I'll 286 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: just do it. Just kidding. I'm sure he thought it 287 00:15:03,920 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: was a good song. So Marvin gay enters Motown's famous 288 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,440 Speaker 1: Hitsville studio in Detroit to record the song on June one, 289 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: and this marked his first true full scale independent production. 290 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: He'd recently produced the Originals and Uh, and he was 291 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: emboldened by this experience, so he wanted to take a 292 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 1: shot at this track. Rather than relying to one of 293 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 1: Motown's you know, crack team of in house producers, he 294 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: paid for the session himself and even hired his own 295 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: non Motown musicians, which is I mean, Motown is such 296 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: an insular company. I mean, that was a pretty radical 297 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: act to bringing outsiders, including members of the Detroit Symphony, 298 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: and he even invited some of his friends from the 299 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: Detroit Lions to come in and add to the street 300 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: chatter at the beginning of the song. And he really 301 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: wanted it to stay away from anything that resembled the 302 00:15:52,320 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 1: traditional motown sound, which I mean, at this point had 303 00:15:55,560 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: become I say, formulaic. I don't mean that as an 304 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: was that absolutely was, yeah. I mean I mean we 305 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: were just looking it up. It was open twenty two 306 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: hours a day, they closed it for two hours to 307 00:16:06,760 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 1: clean it. It was a factor. Yeah. So he really 308 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,440 Speaker 1: wanted to try to break away from that, and so 309 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: he brought in a big band drummer named chet Forest 310 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: to make sure it didn't have that standard you know, 311 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: R and B four on the floor motown beat that 312 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: the you know, the label become famous for. Uh. He 313 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: had this whole army of percussionists on the floor of 314 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: Studio A, which they called the snake pit the live room. Uh. 315 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: Jack Ashford on tambourine, Eddie Brown on bongos and congo's 316 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:37,920 Speaker 1: earl the Ruin on conga's and Jack Brokenshaw on vibes 317 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 1: and assorted percussive toys, and these were heavy hitters. These 318 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: were guys who played with jazz legends like Charlie Parker 319 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: and Dizzy Glepsi. And you know, Marvin was down there 320 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 1: in the snake pit right alongside him, playing piano and 321 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,240 Speaker 1: leading the rhythm section. And you know, there's a shame 322 00:16:53,280 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 1: because they're all these great musicians around, but no one 323 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: could see each other because apparently the air was so 324 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: thick with pot smoke. Marv in it's well known like 325 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: to spark a joint on occasion, and yeah, it's fair 326 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 1: to say that weed was fairly plentiful in the studio, 327 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: which you know was not all that unusual in nine, 328 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: but it's unusual that the sound of someone smoking a 329 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:16,399 Speaker 1: joint actually made it onto the final take. During the 330 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: studio chatter and the fade of the song, there's like 331 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: a long sustained intake of breath, which is the unmistakable 332 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 1: sound of Doobie hitting. Is that? Is that the Is 333 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 1: that how one phrases that's hip, thank you your hip 334 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:33,920 Speaker 1: jive patter? Yeah, i'd clearly know what's going on. Yeah, 335 00:17:33,960 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: the snake pid's so funny, man, I mean, I've done 336 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: that tour. It is It's truly one of the precursors 337 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: to d I y like indie culture, like yep, just 338 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,199 Speaker 1: throw stuff in the basement and go from there. I mean, 339 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,560 Speaker 1: because they there's also like a shoot up to the attic, 340 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: and that was how they would get some of the 341 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 1: vocal reavers by like an old laundry shoot basically, yeah, 342 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,360 Speaker 1: like singing up into it. It's so cool that they 343 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: just did everything out of that house. Is it small? 344 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 1: Like I've never been out small small house? Not like 345 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 1: I mean, he didn't buy what they call the Motown 346 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,600 Speaker 1: Mansion until sixty seven, and then all of the Hitsville 347 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: stuff was yeah, and then destroyed the label. Yeah. And 348 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,440 Speaker 1: while we're on the topic of people, I guess I'll 349 00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 1: say over indulging. This brings us to my favorite story 350 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:26,199 Speaker 1: of the What's going On sessions. Marvin really wanted the 351 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: Motown basis James Jamerson to play on What's going On? 352 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,400 Speaker 1: And you know, why wouldn't he? The dude is one 353 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 1: of the greatest bassists in history, providing the groove for 354 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: a truly ridiculous number of Motown hits. I mean, You've 355 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: got my girl, you got you can't hurry love dancing 356 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: in the streets for once in my life. I heard 357 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: it through the grape vine. Reach out and I'll be there. 358 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: As a session musician, he played on twenty three Billboard 359 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,640 Speaker 1: Hot number one hits, a record only narrowly surpassed by 360 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 1: Sir Paul McCartney, who's cited him as an influence. He 361 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: is where he, I mean he it's not an exaggeration 362 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: to say he revolutionized bass playing. Before this, you had 363 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 1: like upright basis, and he was an upright basis. He 364 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:11,920 Speaker 1: was a jazz bassis. So he had a tremendous was 365 00:19:11,960 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: an upright guy. Yeah, yeah, he had it. So he 366 00:19:14,160 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: was a jazz bassist and a lot of these guys 367 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,679 Speaker 1: were jazz musicians. They used to record all day and 368 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,959 Speaker 1: then go out and hit jams after our jams. So 369 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: just a tremendously just physical faculty on the instrument, right, 370 00:19:26,840 --> 00:19:32,399 Speaker 1: but then just the innovations he brought to harmony and rhythm. Yeah, 371 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 1: it's like him and Joco Pastorius who are like true 372 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,520 Speaker 1: revolutionaries of that instrument. And like I guess like Jack 373 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: Bruce and John intwistled a very distant third, but they're British. 374 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:46,359 Speaker 1: They can't play bass. What about sir Paul, what about 375 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:51,600 Speaker 1: my beloved Macca. He's fine, He's you know, he's fine. 376 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: He's got some moves. But I mean you cannot under 377 00:19:55,560 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: sell James like he's And the base line to this song. 378 00:20:01,000 --> 00:20:04,000 Speaker 1: My one bass teacher was like, you couldn't get work 379 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: after this bassline came out if you hadn't like transcribed 380 00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:08,879 Speaker 1: it and played it. He was like, that was like 381 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 1: the audition piece for every gigging bassist for after a while, 382 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:14,399 Speaker 1: because it was just like the gauntlet had been thrown. 383 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: You know. Now, I mean, you are a much better 384 00:20:17,920 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 1: I dabble in bass like I played bass in your band, 385 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:24,399 Speaker 1: but you are serious. Thank you. That's very kind of you. 386 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: But you are a serious, classically trained bass player. Is 387 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 1: it a complex bassline in the song? Yeah, I mean, 388 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: without getting two in the weeds about it. He uses 389 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 1: all these passing tones like bass playing was so uh 390 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 1: just using like root fifth, root third, just outlining the 391 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: chords very simply, and he adds all these non chord tones, 392 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 1: these passing tones that are on like the different parts 393 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:48,959 Speaker 1: of the beat, and he just hasn't in such an 394 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,640 Speaker 1: instinctual way that's so natural. You hear like so many 395 00:20:53,680 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: other different bassists have just taken their entire bag of 396 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: tricks from James and really baseline, I mean, and and 397 00:21:02,480 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: now that we've talked about it, like it's like the 398 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: Loadstar and like the Ten Commandments on the Mountain, tells 399 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:12,439 Speaker 1: how it came about. Yes, he was so drunk that 400 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: he couldn't sit in a chair and was flat on 401 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: his back on the floor of the studio when he 402 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: came up with this revolutionary baseline. And there are there 403 00:21:21,440 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 1: are two versions of how this came to be, and 404 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: I love them both, and I'll share them both with you, 405 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: and I wish they could both exist. The first version 406 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: I had heard was that, you know, you mentioned earlier 407 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: that these old jazz guys love to go out at 408 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,439 Speaker 1: night and go gigging, and Marvin, I guess forgot to 409 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 1: book Jamerson. I'm not really sure what happened, but was 410 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 1: desperately trying to track him down. So he just hit 411 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:46,119 Speaker 1: every dive bar and like ceed club in town looking 412 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: for Jamerson. And there he was on stage, just basically blackout, 413 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: and brought him along to the studio, plunked him in 414 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: a chair, but he had trouble even sitting in the chair, 415 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,159 Speaker 1: so he just reclined on the studio floor and and 416 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: made magic um. The slightly more likely version I heard 417 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: was that Marvin was out and ran into him before 418 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: going to the session, and he was, you know, doing 419 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:12,120 Speaker 1: a gig on stage at some club and said, oh yeah, 420 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: when you're done, come by the studio afterwards. We're doing 421 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 1: working on a track. And then he just showed up, 422 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 1: black out, out of his mind. The other thing that 423 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: that the guys talk about and standing in the shadows, 424 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 1: is fortunate that this did not make it into the 425 00:22:26,480 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: session because apparently Jamison's other habit that pissed everyone off 426 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: was smoking cigars and eating pigs feet while they were 427 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: like touring around in these sedans and like, I mean, 428 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: you know these there's like four or five guys piled 429 00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: into a car and Jamerson would be smoking cigars and 430 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: eating pickled pigs feed out of like paper bags, and 431 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: everyone's like, you're lucky, you're a genius, because we cannot 432 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,200 Speaker 1: deal with you. I mean, didn't. He also used to 433 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: keep like some like luzo or something. I hadn't heard this, 434 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 1: This is a new one for me. Yeah, he kept 435 00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: like a bottle, like a really intense Greek spirit in 436 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: his base case, it would kill like a decent amount 437 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: of it during a session. Um. And it's probably worth 438 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 1: mentioning at this point that he died of cirosis the 439 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: liver at a very young age, I think like forty 440 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,440 Speaker 1: seven or something. Uh, so he knew how to put 441 00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: it away, and he must have had a serious amount 442 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: if he couldn't even sit properly. But it is amazing that. 443 00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 1: I mean, clearly music comes from a different part of 444 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: the brain. You know, with Alzheimer's patients, one of the 445 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,399 Speaker 1: last things that they remember are songs from you know, 446 00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: different points in their lives too, So it really is 447 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,119 Speaker 1: interesting to think, like, I mean, I know that every 448 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: other part of his brain was shut down, but he 449 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: was like, no, I could still rip in my reptilian brain. Yeah, 450 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: I mean, it's definitely an interesting, uh neurological experiment. The 451 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: Jamison base part for what's going on. But uh but yeah, incredible, 452 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: historic baseline done blackout, drunk on the floor of the studio. Incredible, 453 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:57,560 Speaker 1: just so incredible. You know, it was sweet. I guess, 454 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: like he very rarely talked about his work with his wife, 455 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:02,919 Speaker 1: but I guess when he got home from the studio 456 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,919 Speaker 1: that night, he uh, I guess sobered up enough to 457 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,199 Speaker 1: say to his wife, you know, I just worked on 458 00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: a masterpiece, and he was just gushing about it. And 459 00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: she would later say it was rare that he would 460 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: ever discuss his work so passionately with her, that he 461 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:18,440 Speaker 1: knew at the time that this was something special. So yeah, 462 00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 1: James Jamison created that in same baseline well drunk on 463 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: the floor. There's another crucial part of the song that 464 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: sprung from this loose and laid back atmosphere, that lonely, 465 00:24:27,680 --> 00:24:32,919 Speaker 1: haunting Alto Sacks intro, which is just chills going up 466 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,800 Speaker 1: my spine right now just thinking about it. It's it's 467 00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:40,239 Speaker 1: so sad, it's so lonely, it's so haunting. Something like 468 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 1: eight different Sacks players have claimed credit for it over 469 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: the years, but it was played by Eli Fontaine, who 470 00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: was just warming up that that line he played was 471 00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 1: just him messing around. He had no intention whatsoever for 472 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: that to be recorded. He was just getting loose and 473 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: getting his you know, getting his red wet. And he 474 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: signaled to Marvin that he he's ready to roll, and 475 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,199 Speaker 1: Marvin told him to just go home. They had what 476 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,159 Speaker 1: they needed, yeah, And and he was just like what 477 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: do you mean. I was just goofing around, and Marvin replied, 478 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: I love this. Well, you goof exquisitely thanks such a 479 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,240 Speaker 1: great line. I can just hear Marvin say that, and 480 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:21,520 Speaker 1: it is incredibly cool, quiet high pitched Marvin's speaking voice. 481 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: It's so cool you goof exquisitely thank you. I love that. 482 00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,919 Speaker 1: And while we're on the topic of just sort of 483 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: accidents and how they came together to make this such 484 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: an amazing song, you have Marvin Gaye's sort of trademark 485 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: double vocals in the song, like a lot of his 486 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: scat parts, where there's two vocal parts that kind of 487 00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: weave in and out of each other. And it sounds 488 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 1: so tight and so intricate that you would assume that 489 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: it would take a significant amount of arrangement and planning 490 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: to get it to sound that good. Not the case 491 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: at all. Uh, those multilayered vocal parts, which you know 492 00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 1: became his trademark later d'angelo's whole thing too. So I mean, 493 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: like I levin different D'Angelo takes on any given song, 494 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: I mean something that he would revisit, Marvin would revisit 495 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: again and again and again. Uh. And this wasn't intentional. 496 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 1: It was an accident. Marvin had asked to hear a 497 00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,080 Speaker 1: playback of what's going on in the studio, and he 498 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:19,879 Speaker 1: asked an engineer to make a tape with two different 499 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 1: versions of his vocals so that he could switch back 500 00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,000 Speaker 1: and you know, fade in one, fade out the other, 501 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 1: and listen to them both and try to hear which 502 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: one he liked best. And the engineer, by mistake, mixed 503 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,440 Speaker 1: them onto one tape so that you heard both parts 504 00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:37,200 Speaker 1: playing at once, and Marvin liked it. You know, Initially 505 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,200 Speaker 1: he was listening just to try to compare and see 506 00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: which one he liked better, but hearing both at once, 507 00:26:41,520 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: he thought that that was actually the best way to go, 508 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: and that was something that he would kind of expand 509 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: on for the rest of his career and do these 510 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: multilayered three, four or five vocal part harmonies with himself. Yeah. So, 511 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: perhaps sort of going along with his like political awakening, 512 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: Marvin Gaze started changing his boat style in the late sixties. Um. 513 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,520 Speaker 1: I guess some of it had to do with being 514 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,240 Speaker 1: coached to sound more like Norman Whitfield. And this goes 515 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: into the motown thing of being like they would always 516 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 1: put songs slightly out of people's comfortable vocal register to 517 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:19,040 Speaker 1: give it that likeding, pleading aspect to it. And so 518 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: Gay said after listening to David Ruffin and Leavid Levi 519 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 1: Stubbs for some of the famous like passionate motown shouters, 520 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: he said he started to develop what he called his 521 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 1: tough man voice and saying intentionally putting a growl onto 522 00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,119 Speaker 1: his lower register. And there's a guy named Rob Bowman 523 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 1: who wrote liner notes to this DVD of collected Marvin 524 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: Gay performances, and he says that the recording of What's 525 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: going On is the first that Marvin has his three 526 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: voices that are all appearing in one song, which is 527 00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: this lower register growl, his really unaffected high tenor, and 528 00:27:55,440 --> 00:28:00,639 Speaker 1: then his falsetto. That's really interesting. Well, super man, Marvin 529 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: Kay is incredible. And then speaking of voices on this 530 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: record and things that they would later go on to 531 00:28:05,760 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: do this, I love this bit so much. So the 532 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,199 Speaker 1: other big part of the You might even say the 533 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,120 Speaker 1: studio was its own instrumental on this on this recording, 534 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,880 Speaker 1: but I mean it sounds like a party, rights, Hey, 535 00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: what's happening? Yeah? And to add to that. He basically 536 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: had a bunch of people come in and add lib 537 00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: like pitter patter, like rubab rub rub. They didn't say rubar, 538 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: But that's like a isn't that what they tell like 539 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,600 Speaker 1: extras to like be mouthing and talking and background shots. 540 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: I've never heard that something I heard somewhere. Um. Yeah, 541 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 1: So he brings in a bunch of people, not all 542 00:28:40,720 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: of whom, not not many of them. I don't think 543 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: any of them are professional singers. Yeah. These his NFL 544 00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: buddies and um. And some of the people who are 545 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: on there as singers are Detroit Lions players Mel far 546 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: and Lem Barney, some of the different Funk brothers, the 547 00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:00,959 Speaker 1: backing band, the session guys who were not close by trade, 548 00:29:01,280 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: and a motown staff are named l G. Stover and 549 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:06,040 Speaker 1: LG is the man who says, hey man, what's happening? 550 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: And he says everything is everything. Um. And he has 551 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: co writes on flying high in the friendly sky and 552 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 1: God his love. But his lasting contribution to the world 553 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 1: other than this is his ribs. He had a roadside 554 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: grill and Hilton Head, South Carolina that was a favorite 555 00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: of Bill Clinton's, and so whenever Bill Clinton was in 556 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 1: the area. The Secret Service agents would would bring poor 557 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: Cribs over to Bill and they made him an honorary 558 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:42,560 Speaker 1: member of the five Explosive Ordinance Disposal Unit because Jordan's 559 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: because his ribs were good enough to blast the explosive 560 00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: sniffing dogs from their appointed duties. Or you could be 561 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,680 Speaker 1: taken as giving them explosive bowel problems. I'm not really 562 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: sure which which that I prefer the kind version better. Yeah, 563 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: but yeah, I used to say to his custom I'm 564 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:03,760 Speaker 1: l G Stover, the Black Cassanova, known for his ribs 565 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: the world all over. God bless you, LG for all 566 00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: you've given us. And having said all that, we'll be 567 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,280 Speaker 1: right back with more too much information. Right after this, 568 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:29,480 Speaker 1: we're getting into Barry Gordy territory. Now next warning warning 569 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: bummer ahead, weren't weren't. Yeah, Marvin knew what he had 570 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: on his hands, and he was so excited to play 571 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: it for Barry Gordy, and Barry Gordy was not thrilled. Now, Barry, 572 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:46,480 Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about Barry being this father 573 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,640 Speaker 1: figure to Marvin. Marvin sought him out on his vacation. 574 00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,440 Speaker 1: He was so excited that he couldn't play the Bahamas, 575 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: and he tracked him down to the Bahamas to play 576 00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: him this song, which makes it so much worse than Barry. 577 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: He hated it like Margaret had come all this way 578 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 1: like a kid wanting to please his dad with this 579 00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: thing that he had made. And the dad said, I 580 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 1: think the quote was, this is the worst thing I've 581 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 1: ever heard in my life. I mean, it does make 582 00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: sense because everything is so controlled, was so controlled within 583 00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: an inch of its life at Motown, and even just 584 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 1: like sonically it must have sounded to him like like 585 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: a pseudo psychedelic band and not like that dry crisp, 586 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 1: very bare bones kind of Motown sound like even the 587 00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: even the stuff that has like the string quartet on 588 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: it does not sound murky. It doesn't sound like a party. 589 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,959 Speaker 1: It sounds like like a Detroit car, you know, precision engineered. 590 00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: So to get this sprawling, weird, lucy goosey thing, I mean, 591 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: I get why he wouldn't like it, but well, it's weird. 592 00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: He actually said that he thought that it sounded old fashioned, 593 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: which is bizarre and be correct. He thought that the 594 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,480 Speaker 1: stap sounded old like an old dizzey glepsby style things, 595 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: so that he didn't like the kind of jazziness of 596 00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:05,040 Speaker 1: it too, So I'm sure it was both. I'm sure 597 00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: he thought that the actual like acoustics of it were 598 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:11,520 Speaker 1: kind of murky psychedelia, but also the quartal structures and 599 00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,600 Speaker 1: all the scat singing and stuff he did, he thought 600 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: sounded like an old big band jazz stuff. I mean, 601 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,239 Speaker 1: he got the big band drummer guys. So I mean 602 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: at least he was consistent because he also came after 603 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 1: the Temptations for doing Ball of Confusion. They worked up 604 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: in their toe in the waters of social awareness with 605 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:28,280 Speaker 1: their music. Yeah, I mean, he'd worked so hard to 606 00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: create this brand that was kind of for everybody, and yeah, 607 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: he'd been dragging his feet for so long on making 608 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: even the most tame social comments. And mean, he mentioned 609 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: Ball of Confusion Temptations wore the Edwin Star song. He 610 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: wouldn't let the Temptations do that song because he was 611 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,040 Speaker 1: afraid that it was gonna, you know, alienate their listeners. 612 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,800 Speaker 1: So they gave it to Edwin Starr, who was like 613 00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,520 Speaker 1: a you know, second tier, no offense edwind star motown artist, 614 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: and it became I think it went to number one 615 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: I mean it became a huge hits rules. Oh yeah, 616 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: it's incredible song. And you know, just to show where 617 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:05,320 Speaker 1: Barry Gordy was at, he had just co written ABC 618 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,560 Speaker 1: for the Jackson five, which is I mean, it's mostically 619 00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: a nursery rhyme. I mean, that is a nursery rhyme. 620 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,120 Speaker 1: It's the most bubblegum sound in the world. I mean, 621 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: Motown builled itself as the sound of young America. That's 622 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: what they had printed on, you know, all the record 623 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 1: sleeves and stuff. And what Marvin was doing was now 624 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: the sound of young America. And Barry wasn't willing to 625 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 1: move in that direction. And his reaction to what's going 626 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,480 Speaker 1: on was basically, I mean, to keep building on this 627 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: father's son metaphor was like a father whose favorite son 628 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: had rejected an Ivy League scholarship and decided to go 629 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: join a rock band or something, and was like, why 630 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 1: do you want to ruin your career? You are basically 631 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: like a modern day not King Cole. You were this 632 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 1: widely accepted cross um racial figure. Why do you want 633 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: to go out and rock the boat on this? And 634 00:33:54,400 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: so you know, I mean, there's this great story about 635 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: Barry Gordy when he was a little kid. To make 636 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,720 Speaker 1: a few bucks, he sold newspapers. The papers that he 637 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:04,840 Speaker 1: sold were written for for black people. He sold him 638 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 1: in black neighborhoods and then one day he decided to 639 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: see what would happen if he went to white neighborhoods 640 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 1: to sell this you know, supposedly black newspaper there, and 641 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,960 Speaker 1: he doubled his money. So he was thrilled about this. 642 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,960 Speaker 1: He had, you know, as an early as a kid, 643 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 1: he had a crossover hit on his hand with this newspaper. 644 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 1: So he told all his friends and they went back 645 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: to this white neighborhood as a group, and the next 646 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,320 Speaker 1: day they sold nothing. And he said it was important lesson. 647 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 1: One black kid is cute, two is a threat. And 648 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:37,480 Speaker 1: I think that this incident instilled in him this desire 649 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: to to cross over into white communities but also be 650 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,240 Speaker 1: very aware of the tensions and the code of behavior 651 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: that it would take to do so. Um. He was 652 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: also a boxer as a kid, which you know gives 653 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: some indication of his approach to business. Steely and one 654 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: of his first entrepreneurial ventures was a record store that 655 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: stalked high browed jazz that was really the kind of 656 00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,920 Speaker 1: music that he loved. And he quickly learned that people 657 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: didn't want highbrow jazz but pop and R and B, 658 00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: and the shop went bust because of it, because he 659 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,279 Speaker 1: held firm to these you know, highbrow music taste that 660 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: that he really personally loved. So I think all three 661 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: of these stories really are crucial to how he ran Motown. 662 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:20,440 Speaker 1: And the fact that Marvin Gay said he had a 663 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,560 Speaker 1: short man's complex. Marvin Gay was like six ft tall, 664 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,239 Speaker 1: Yes exactly. I think, you know, the the being very 665 00:35:27,280 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 1: aware of how delicate the whole having a crossover product 666 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: can be, how you do not let your personal taste, 667 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: no matter highbrow they are, you know, dictate. You know, 668 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: you gotta go for the I hate to say lowest 669 00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: common denominator, but just common ties. And he uh held 670 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,240 Speaker 1: to this with the spirit of a boxer and don't 671 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,120 Speaker 1: with the formula. Yeah, don't you ever cross me. I 672 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 1: mean Marvin's relationship with Berry Gordy. Should we we get 673 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: into this, I mean it is maybe just the quick 674 00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 1: cliff notes because it's it will just make me too 675 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,400 Speaker 1: sad to finish, I I know, I know, I mean, well, 676 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 1: we'll try to go quick. I mean, you almost can't 677 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 1: get into Marvin Gay's relationship with Barry Gordy without at 678 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: least touching about his extremely troubled relationship with Marvin's own father, 679 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: Marvin Gay Senior, who was an abusive, alcoholic Pentecostal preacher 680 00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 1: who brutally beat him as a boy for just even 681 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: minor offenses. Uh. He would often say to him, I 682 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 1: brought you into this world, I can take you out, 683 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,520 Speaker 1: and he would say it with utmost sincerity and um spoiler, 684 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 1: that's exactly what he did. Marvin was was murdered by 685 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,879 Speaker 1: his father. Um. Balancing the secular with you know, his 686 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: his Pentecostal upbringing was something that he never really rational. 687 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: I mean, the sacred and the profane existed in the 688 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,920 Speaker 1: same space in Marvin's head, never really. I definitely stole 689 00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,240 Speaker 1: that from some things. I think that's from the Marvin 690 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: Gay biography Divided Soul by David Ritz. I can't swear 691 00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,440 Speaker 1: to that, but like you said, you could fill a 692 00:36:59,480 --> 00:37:01,759 Speaker 1: whole book Marvin's relationship with his dad and we won't 693 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:03,719 Speaker 1: get into it all here other than to you know, 694 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: reiterate the fact that Marvin's dad wound up shooting him 695 00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:11,319 Speaker 1: the death. So clearly their relationship wasn't great. Um, there's 696 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: this really sad story where Marvin tried to make his 697 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 1: dad proud by giving him a suitcase with three million 698 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: dollars cash. He expected praise, but his father only responded 699 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 1: by quoting a biblical passage, what does it profit a 700 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: man to gain the whole world yet forfeit his soul? 701 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, he was never gonna really see eye to 702 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 1: eye with his father, and Marvin basically re enacts all 703 00:37:34,080 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 1: this twisted paternal turmoil in his relationship with Barry Gordy, 704 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,000 Speaker 1: who he saw as a father figure in the way 705 00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,640 Speaker 1: that a teenager sees a father figure, which is basically 706 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: a disciplinarian bent on control and limiting his freedom in 707 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 1: favor of old fashioned, boring ideas. Um, it's really amazing 708 00:37:51,120 --> 00:37:54,640 Speaker 1: how often daddy issues crop up on this show. I 709 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,560 Speaker 1: guess that's life. I guess that's at least life in 710 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: the artistic world. And Berry Gordy, as soon as Marvin's 711 00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: signed to Motown in nineteen sixty, he became the major 712 00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,279 Speaker 1: male role model in Marvin's life, you know, rejecting his 713 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,799 Speaker 1: own father. Marvin was really influenced by strong men. I 714 00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:14,319 Speaker 1: mean these were managers, these were his friends on the 715 00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:18,680 Speaker 1: NFL teams, and uh, he would tell biographer David Ritz, 716 00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,719 Speaker 1: I respected Berry Gordy for his guts, but even in 717 00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:24,839 Speaker 1: the beginning, I knew we were destined to clash. At 718 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: the same time, I was awed by him. B G 719 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,000 Speaker 1: that's what we all called him. Was also the coolest 720 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,880 Speaker 1: dude I'd ever met. Had women like you wouldn't believe, beautiful, 721 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,759 Speaker 1: world class women. Combined that with the talent for making millions, 722 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,279 Speaker 1: and you get some idea of the impact this guy 723 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,919 Speaker 1: had on me. This cat was serious. So Marvin knew 724 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 1: he needed Barry, and he admired his business acumen and 725 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: his cunning for you know, getting through the vicious music marketplace. 726 00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: Everyone was out for number one. Marvin said, Barry first 727 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:58,319 Speaker 1: and foremost. He established himself as a king. He owned us. 728 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 1: And I think that's a very telling statement. I mean this, 729 00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 1: you know, need for control and business cutting that Marvin 730 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: really admired about him. He also resented the hell out 731 00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: of because Barry was maybe still is, one of the 732 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: most terrifying autocrats in music history. Yeah, I mean, Marvin 733 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:18,319 Speaker 1: is an artist, he was like a sweet, sensitive boy 734 00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,319 Speaker 1: who loved to sing, and Barry Gordy loved money and 735 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: disliked things that would separate him from his money. Right, yeah, 736 00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: I mean you mentioned this earlier. Motel was basically like 737 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: took a cue from the old pre code movie studios 738 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: that controlled every aspect of an artist's life. They sent 739 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 1: him to like these Charms schools and taught these kids 740 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: from the Detroit projects how to be quote acceptable to 741 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: white audiences. And Marvin rejected all of this almost immediately. 742 00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,920 Speaker 1: And you know, even at an early stage, he wouldn't 743 00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:50,800 Speaker 1: allow himself to be packaged into this all around entertainer mold, 744 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,400 Speaker 1: which is why he didn't achieve the same kind of 745 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: success as the Temptations and the Supremes did in the sixties. 746 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,400 Speaker 1: He just would kind of buck all attempts to be 747 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: put into that prepackaged mold. And there's a great quote 748 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: he said years later, I bitch about us being slaves 749 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 1: to the system and stir up all kinds of stuff. 750 00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: But finally, like everyone else, I'd fall in line somewhere 751 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: along in here. Don't ask me the time or date 752 00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: I lost my self respect. It's so sad thinking of 753 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,360 Speaker 1: this immensely talented man just being beaten down by a 754 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: succession of horrible father figures. Oh yeah, I mean he 755 00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: was very much afraid of Barry Gordon, I mean, just 756 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: like he was of his actual father. And to prove 757 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,480 Speaker 1: that he wasn't afraid, he would just act out senselessly 758 00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: and provoke both men, whose love and approval he also craved. 759 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: I guess at one gig, Marvin wouldn't go on, like 760 00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: Barry was there and Marvin refused to go on. Barry 761 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:45,799 Speaker 1: went backstage and smacked Marvin in the mouth before just 762 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:48,239 Speaker 1: cursing him out in front of everybody. And within a 763 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: few minutes Marvin was on the stage, and I mean 764 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,000 Speaker 1: Barry and he just viewed him like a troubled son, 765 00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 1: and they would fight. I mean, Motown staffers were horrified 766 00:40:56,560 --> 00:40:59,120 Speaker 1: one day to see that Barry and Marvin were like 767 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 1: literally tossed ling on the lawn at the Motown studios, 768 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:05,960 Speaker 1: just like screaming at each other and the pouring rain, 769 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,239 Speaker 1: and Barry was like, I made you a star, I've 770 00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: done everything for you, which is such a dad thing 771 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,160 Speaker 1: to say. And uh, because I guess he made the 772 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:19,520 Speaker 1: mistake once of calling Marvin boy which you don't call 773 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: Marvin boy that that that didn't end well. So I 774 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,279 Speaker 1: mean this was just a battle of wills between the 775 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: autocratic father figure and this strong willed, emotionally tempestuous artist. 776 00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,439 Speaker 1: And you know, like I said earlier, Marvin started showing 777 00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: up to interviews carrying copies of books by you know, 778 00:41:38,000 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: Black Panthers or Malcolm X. He's sang a version of 779 00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: the Dion song Abraham, Martin and John, which was about 780 00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 1: as political as Motown was willing to get in n 781 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 1: you know, references Martin, Luther King and rfk's assassinations and 782 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: the riots across the country. So this really puts the 783 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 1: whole what's going on standoff into perspective. It's why Barry 784 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:01,040 Speaker 1: hated it and refused to release it. But who came 785 00:42:01,080 --> 00:42:03,760 Speaker 1: to save the day? Hegel as he always does, Stevie 786 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,080 Speaker 1: wonder Baby. You know, Motown for anyone who doesn't know, 787 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: for anyone who's not as big nerds as we are, 788 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 1: Motown had a quality control division. I love that so much. 789 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:14,719 Speaker 1: I Mean, the legend that I always heard was that 790 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:17,040 Speaker 1: Berry Gordy had like did you have like a like 791 00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 1: a weekly meeting? A meeting? But he had like a 792 00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:21,960 Speaker 1: car radio, not a stereo that he would listen to. 793 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,319 Speaker 1: A lot of people would do that. Brian Wilson would 794 00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:26,319 Speaker 1: do that too. They wanted to hear how things would 795 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 1: sound to the kids. That they wanted to hear it 796 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: would sound. You know how most people listen to music 797 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: in those days on a little crappy car radis transistor radio. 798 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:37,120 Speaker 1: But so what's going on gets in front of the 799 00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,359 Speaker 1: quality control board and presumably the the playback and gets 800 00:42:41,360 --> 00:42:44,879 Speaker 1: a resounding thumbs down. And Stevie Wonder, who is on 801 00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:49,239 Speaker 1: his ascent to godhood at this point, Um, Yeah, this 802 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 1: is right before like Talking Book and seventy one and yeah, 803 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: before he's just about to start crushing it for like 804 00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:57,399 Speaker 1: a decade. He uh came to the defense of it. 805 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,399 Speaker 1: And it's also interesting to note that not only heard 806 00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:04,359 Speaker 1: it through the grape brine, but also baby, I'm for real, 807 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,879 Speaker 1: we're also all passes by the QC board. C board 808 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,520 Speaker 1: really wasn't in the Marvin stuff. Yeah, but you know 809 00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,319 Speaker 1: who else liked it was Barry Gordy's sister, who is 810 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:17,879 Speaker 1: Marvin's wife. Yeah, I really I want to like take 811 00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: a look at this for a moment. Uh, we just 812 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:25,480 Speaker 1: went through all the complex father's son annipal weirdness issues. 813 00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: But that's not all surrounding Barry, Gordy and Marvin Gay. 814 00:43:29,440 --> 00:43:33,400 Speaker 1: Marvin asserted his dominance at Motown in this really quite 815 00:43:33,480 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: medieval way by marrying the boss's sister. But the boss 816 00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,560 Speaker 1: in the scenario is also his father figure, so it's 817 00:43:40,600 --> 00:43:44,759 Speaker 1: sort of like his aunt. But Anna Gorty, Barry's sister. 818 00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,319 Speaker 1: It was also seventeen years older than Marvin, and by 819 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: all accounts, was a very maternal figure and took on 820 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 1: kind of a maternal role in Marvin's life. So have 821 00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,360 Speaker 1: fun with all that. Yeah, a lot of layers. But 822 00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: she was unable to sway Barry to get him to 823 00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:04,479 Speaker 1: put out the single, so Marvin went on strike. He said, 824 00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: put it out, put out what's going on, or I'll 825 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:11,480 Speaker 1: never record for you again. And Gordy then asked Smokey Robinson, 826 00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,840 Speaker 1: who is Motown Spice President, one of its biggest stars. 827 00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,439 Speaker 1: He said, can you change his mind? And the Robinson said, 828 00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,720 Speaker 1: like a bear sting in the woods, Marvin ain't budget, 829 00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: which I love that that should have been a song, 830 00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:30,600 Speaker 1: that should have been an early that sounds like an 831 00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,399 Speaker 1: early miracle song. Well, so Gay and Smokey were really 832 00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 1: close friends. And I just read this quote that gay 833 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,239 Speaker 1: Wood was talking about Smokey or talking about what's going on, 834 00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,440 Speaker 1: and he said, God is writing this album. God is 835 00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,000 Speaker 1: working through me to make what's going on. So maybe 836 00:44:47,040 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 1: that had to do with the bear sting analogy, the 837 00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:56,440 Speaker 1: sacred and profane, as I said at a crossroads. Um, 838 00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:59,240 Speaker 1: but yeah, and he followed through on it. He didn't 839 00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:02,799 Speaker 1: release anything you didn't record, And this was hurting himself 840 00:45:02,960 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 1: because he was broke. The I R S was coming 841 00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: after him wouldn't be the last time, and he, you know, 842 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: could have used a big pay day, but stalled, like 843 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:16,400 Speaker 1: the the unstoppable Force and the immovable object for over 844 00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:20,000 Speaker 1: half a year. And as you wrote, I beloved L. G. 845 00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: Stover had a great quote about this. Marvin had heard 846 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 1: protesters advising that the only way for an individual to 847 00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:29,800 Speaker 1: fight the war machine was not to allow his body 848 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 1: to be used as an instrument of that war. And 849 00:45:32,719 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 1: this was the way he approached his battle with Motown. 850 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,480 Speaker 1: Not really the same thing, but but continue the passive 851 00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 1: resistance preached by Martin Luther King was the only path. 852 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: He was already a part time live performer at best 853 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: now he would simply cease recording altogether until What's going 854 00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:50,600 Speaker 1: On was released, But they still didn't didn't even technically 855 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:53,040 Speaker 1: work because they had to sneak release it. Yeah, this 856 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 1: still really confuses me. How you pull on over on 857 00:45:55,680 --> 00:45:58,920 Speaker 1: Barry Gordy. Um, What's going On eventually saw the light 858 00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,120 Speaker 1: of day a few months later. It or because an 859 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: executive went behind Barry Gordy's back to release it. And 860 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,719 Speaker 1: there are actually two versions of the story, the heroic 861 00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,920 Speaker 1: version and the more practical version. There's a story that 862 00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:13,080 Speaker 1: was released thanks to a sympathetic Motown executive named Harry 863 00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: balk And. This guy was sort of a legend at 864 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,399 Speaker 1: Motown for throwing a tax officer down the stairs during 865 00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,439 Speaker 1: an argument about an audit, So clearly you don't mess 866 00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 1: with Harry balk And he believed in What's going On 867 00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:26,920 Speaker 1: so strongly that he distributed a hundred thousand copies to 868 00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,840 Speaker 1: record stores supposedly behind Barry Gordy's back, which seems like 869 00:46:31,239 --> 00:46:35,200 Speaker 1: career suicide, possibly actual suicide, because you really don't want 870 00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: to mess with Barry Gordy again, former boxer. The other version, 871 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:41,600 Speaker 1: which is kind of more practical, is that the label 872 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,359 Speaker 1: needed a new single from its biggest male star, and 873 00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 1: What's going On was simply the only one that they had, 874 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:48,920 Speaker 1: and they just bit the bullet and went with it. 875 00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: Kind Of questionable because I feel like there's a lot 876 00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:55,480 Speaker 1: of unreleased Motown stuff in recent years. They've gone chronologically 877 00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:58,800 Speaker 1: and released a whole box set of like unreleased Motown stuff, 878 00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:00,719 Speaker 1: So I would imagine they must that's something in the 879 00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: vault from him, but maybe not. Whatever the case, the 880 00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: single was released in January. I guess when Barry Gordy 881 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: was taking a flight to l A and he like 882 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,440 Speaker 1: found out that this has been released, like as the 883 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: flight was taking off, And according to lore, by the 884 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,120 Speaker 1: time the plane touched down in l A, they had 885 00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 1: orders out for all of them. The entire run was 886 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:22,240 Speaker 1: sold out so fast that they had another hundred thousand 887 00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,279 Speaker 1: singles produced within a week. Uh so, the worst thing 888 00:47:25,280 --> 00:47:27,120 Speaker 1: that Barry Gordy had ever heard in his life had 889 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,800 Speaker 1: become the fastest selling single in the history of Motown. 890 00:47:30,160 --> 00:47:32,759 Speaker 1: I love it. There's apparently a couple of digs at 891 00:47:32,760 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 1: Barry in this song, the false fade out at the end, 892 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,800 Speaker 1: which is still a weird thing for a song it 893 00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,160 Speaker 1: just fades out and comes back. Gay did it himself. 894 00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:43,960 Speaker 1: He was when they were mixing. He was like, we 895 00:47:44,000 --> 00:47:45,920 Speaker 1: need to do this. I would and and did it 896 00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:48,000 Speaker 1: to mess with Berry Gordyon. He just reached over to 897 00:47:48,040 --> 00:47:50,040 Speaker 1: the fader and like switched it back up again for 898 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,080 Speaker 1: a second. And then the guy who engineered at Steve 899 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,319 Speaker 1: Smith said it was Marvin's mind trip, his way of 900 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,960 Speaker 1: saying you to the company. And I think more so 901 00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: to Barry Gordy, you think this saw you hate is 902 00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:04,319 Speaker 1: over surprise? I love that. I love that so much 903 00:48:04,640 --> 00:48:07,799 Speaker 1: about what's going on became a global smash and his 904 00:48:07,840 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 1: biggest hit to date, and Barry Gordy, being a businessman 905 00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:15,040 Speaker 1: first and foremost, totally reversed his decision and told Marvin 906 00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:18,320 Speaker 1: that Motown would now release an album of anything he wanted, 907 00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,799 Speaker 1: provided he could finish it in thirty days. And as 908 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:24,439 Speaker 1: a perverse form of encouragement, he made this like a bet, 909 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,640 Speaker 1: do it in thirty days, and Marvin did it intend 910 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,800 Speaker 1: supposedly working constant sixteen hour days to cut nine tracks. 911 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,799 Speaker 1: Neither man ever disclosed, but they wagered I would love 912 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,319 Speaker 1: to know what the bet was about, but uh yeah, 913 00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: Barry bet him to do it in thirty days, and 914 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:44,360 Speaker 1: he didn't intend because that's what cocaine is for. Yeah, 915 00:48:44,680 --> 00:48:48,799 Speaker 1: now heigl Uh, you're a vocalist, you're a singer. You 916 00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,080 Speaker 1: we were in a band together and and and you 917 00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,440 Speaker 1: were the singer. I know that a lot of vocalists 918 00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:57,359 Speaker 1: have all sorts of unique ways in the studio, like 919 00:48:57,640 --> 00:49:03,320 Speaker 1: ritual incense of people have a special drink that they drink. Uh, 920 00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:05,279 Speaker 1: tell us what Martin did before he would do his 921 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,919 Speaker 1: vocal takes. I mean, there's there's different These have been 922 00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,680 Speaker 1: chalked up to different reasons for doing this, but um, 923 00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:14,960 Speaker 1: you know, not only there's really only one reason for 924 00:49:15,040 --> 00:49:18,800 Speaker 1: doing this. But go on, Well, the joints. We talked 925 00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:21,759 Speaker 1: about his habit of chain smoking joints. Uh. There was 926 00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,240 Speaker 1: a lot of scotch flowing through the sessions as well. 927 00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,279 Speaker 1: But according to Dorian Lynskey in thirty three Revolutions per 928 00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:32,640 Speaker 1: Minute History of Protest Songs, Marvin gay would masturbate at length. 929 00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,600 Speaker 1: This is a quote before vocal takes, in order to 930 00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,160 Speaker 1: drain himself of carnal distraction. Which yeah, I mean, like 931 00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:42,920 Speaker 1: you know, the rest of Marvin Gaye's discography is pretty 932 00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,680 Speaker 1: Horny's so he was like, I need to focus on 933 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,759 Speaker 1: social issues. And then when all that was out of 934 00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:50,520 Speaker 1: the way, then he made let's get it on next 935 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:55,240 Speaker 1: next record. Yeah, I mean, good lord, masturbade for hours? 936 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,040 Speaker 1: Where are you reading? Just hear that coming through my master? 937 00:50:01,160 --> 00:50:04,720 Speaker 1: Paid for hours? Is that when I don't know at length? 938 00:50:04,760 --> 00:50:07,760 Speaker 1: What do you consider at late forty minutes forty five minutes? 939 00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:12,680 Speaker 1: I mean it depends on how many people are waiting, Marvin. Look, 940 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,839 Speaker 1: look we're ready to go. I mean we're talking about 941 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:22,640 Speaker 1: this earlier Master Like, no, we were talking about pre 942 00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:26,359 Speaker 1: you know, vocal take rituals. Have you heard of any 943 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:28,600 Speaker 1: good ones? I know you mentioned Beyonce, Well the one, yeah, 944 00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:30,840 Speaker 1: Beyonce supposedly doesn't let anyone in the like in the 945 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:33,520 Speaker 1: entire studio. They're just like she has like the engineer 946 00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:35,040 Speaker 1: in there and like the lights are off and she 947 00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:37,480 Speaker 1: goes in by herself. Um, I mean the one that 948 00:50:38,160 --> 00:50:41,040 Speaker 1: isn't there. There's a Guns and Roses take where like 949 00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:44,480 Speaker 1: AXL Rose is like having sex with someone in the 950 00:50:44,520 --> 00:50:47,360 Speaker 1: booth or there's a lot of job there's as a 951 00:50:47,400 --> 00:50:50,040 Speaker 1: doors song. I think your Lost Little Girl where I 952 00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:54,560 Speaker 1: think that was the other Jim Morrison in bathrooms. Unsurprisingly, 953 00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,960 Speaker 1: didn't you do Roadhouse Blues and the on the toilet? Oh? Yeah, 954 00:50:58,000 --> 00:50:59,480 Speaker 1: that was when they were recording l a Woman that 955 00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,120 Speaker 1: they're like their their workshop and they just turned their 956 00:51:02,160 --> 00:51:04,839 Speaker 1: bathroom into a like an impromptu vocal booth. Great weaver, 957 00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:07,560 Speaker 1: that's why everyone sounds good in the shower. That's we're 958 00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:09,520 Speaker 1: Lennon McCartney. When they were kids used to sing in 959 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:16,200 Speaker 1: the They used to have their their their Sun records 960 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:19,520 Speaker 1: slap back echo up in the upstairs McCartney family bathroom. 961 00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,080 Speaker 1: What's that what you call? Is that what you call 962 00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:25,960 Speaker 1: slap back? Hey? Alright, moving on. I have no segue 963 00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,960 Speaker 1: for this, but we have to stop talking about whack uh. 964 00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:35,520 Speaker 1: Motown's first gatefold cover really, and that cover shot of him, 965 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,960 Speaker 1: you know, sort of looking pensively off in the middle 966 00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:41,000 Speaker 1: distance was very nearly rejected because you could see too 967 00:51:41,000 --> 00:51:45,600 Speaker 1: far up his nose. Photographer Jim Heden Jim Hayden took 968 00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:50,040 Speaker 1: Marvin's portrait at his Detroit home on Outer Drive, started 969 00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:54,160 Speaker 1: to snow, made his hair turn white. Yeah, he's got 970 00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,319 Speaker 1: that great trench coat. But the Motown creative director Tom 971 00:51:57,320 --> 00:52:00,759 Speaker 1: Schlessinger rejected it because you could see way too far 972 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,799 Speaker 1: up Marvin's nose and Marvin, how far is too far? 973 00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:06,600 Speaker 1: It's a great question. I mean, it's my second favorite 974 00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:09,480 Speaker 1: bit of rock and roll nose apocrypha, coming after they 975 00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:12,160 Speaker 1: had to rhotoscope new Young's coke booger out of the 976 00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:17,560 Speaker 1: last waltz Um. Yeah. But again, as with many others, 977 00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:19,719 Speaker 1: as we're beginning to see as a trend, Marvin put 978 00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:23,120 Speaker 1: his foot down said, Nope, that's the cover shot. Deal 979 00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,360 Speaker 1: with it. Trying to think whatever, whatever else this guy's shot. 980 00:52:27,080 --> 00:52:30,320 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of other rock and roll nose stories. Well, 981 00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:35,239 Speaker 1: who uh, didn't Steve Nicks like almost deviate, She deviated 982 00:52:35,239 --> 00:52:37,680 Speaker 1: her septum doing so much coke. I think that's that's 983 00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:41,160 Speaker 1: a common Yeah, what what other? What else you got? 984 00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:45,959 Speaker 1: Michael Jackson, Oh god, no, you know, the the other 985 00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:50,840 Speaker 1: side of Motown knows stories. We're going to take a 986 00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:53,279 Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back with more too 987 00:52:53,400 --> 00:53:07,759 Speaker 1: much information and just a moment. So yeah, this is 988 00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,040 Speaker 1: Motown's first gatefold cover. A couple other first regarding the 989 00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:15,239 Speaker 1: cover first time that musicians were credited, Motown famously did 990 00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,040 Speaker 1: not credit these guys, The Funk Brothers, the people who 991 00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,400 Speaker 1: played on all of these um they left all the 992 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,080 Speaker 1: session players anonymous. The songwriting credits were chucked up to 993 00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:27,640 Speaker 1: the committee that's haunted. It sounds vaguely synis so that 994 00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:29,600 Speaker 1: they used to credit them. And then I think in 995 00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,880 Speaker 1: the in the late sixties and early seventies, there was 996 00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:35,719 Speaker 1: some kind of like mini revolt among the songwriters at Motown, 997 00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,680 Speaker 1: and that's when the Hollanders are Holland left. Yeah, I 998 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,600 Speaker 1: think that was what it was, was that people sort 999 00:53:41,600 --> 00:53:44,640 Speaker 1: of recognizing the songwriters individually. It was a rare bit 1000 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,800 Speaker 1: of individuality in the Motown homogeney that people got sorted 1001 00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,799 Speaker 1: to recognize who's you know what songwriters were writing hits 1002 00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:55,440 Speaker 1: and they became more in demand. So then spiteful Berry 1003 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,759 Speaker 1: Gordy started crediting songs to the committee more as a 1004 00:53:59,760 --> 00:54:02,399 Speaker 1: as a giant middle finger to these songwriters. I think 1005 00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:06,799 Speaker 1: that actually, like, you know, a serious corporate decision, and 1006 00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:08,880 Speaker 1: you you're the one who disputes the credit thing, right, 1007 00:54:08,920 --> 00:54:11,279 Speaker 1: you said, there's a Valerie Simpsons side that printed the 1008 00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:13,560 Speaker 1: actual names of the guys on there. Yeah, there was 1009 00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,000 Speaker 1: an obscure Valerie Simpson album just before What's Going On 1010 00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:19,520 Speaker 1: came out that credited all the musicians who played on it, 1011 00:54:19,680 --> 00:54:25,160 Speaker 1: and uh, but Marvin was definitely somebody who how popularize 1012 00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:28,200 Speaker 1: this practice of crediting the session guys. I mean, put 1013 00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:29,879 Speaker 1: you put a bunch of people on here. I love 1014 00:54:29,960 --> 00:54:33,120 Speaker 1: this good will hunting joke about the janitor at Motown. 1015 00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:36,440 Speaker 1: He credited this guy for writing Inner City Blues. If 1016 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:38,840 Speaker 1: you go through the liner notes, you'll see there's a 1017 00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:41,440 Speaker 1: line and there it says, thanks to James Nicks, a 1018 00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 1: gentleman and a scholar parentheses which I'm apparently not um 1019 00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:48,600 Speaker 1: and as an honor of this gentleman, James Nicks, who's 1020 00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:52,000 Speaker 1: a janitor at the Motown offices and who wanted to 1021 00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:54,880 Speaker 1: be a songwriter. And after Gay wrote the melody for 1022 00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,839 Speaker 1: Inner City Blues, Nicks came up with these lyrics about 1023 00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,960 Speaker 1: the have nots of America, which he saw after reading 1024 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:04,799 Speaker 1: a newspaper headline about the inner city of Detroit. He 1025 00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,799 Speaker 1: also has co writing credits on What's Happening Brother and 1026 00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,080 Speaker 1: God Is Love. And this really came back in a 1027 00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,319 Speaker 1: big way in the eighties when people started sampling this 1028 00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:15,920 Speaker 1: stuff and got them some pretty big paychecks. Yeah, it's 1029 00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:18,640 Speaker 1: interesting to see who Marvin included in his dedications and 1030 00:55:18,719 --> 00:55:22,239 Speaker 1: probably more interesting to see who he didn't include. Um, 1031 00:55:22,320 --> 00:55:27,040 Speaker 1: Marvin shouted out his parents, his family, his close business associates, 1032 00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:31,560 Speaker 1: but Barry Gordy not mentioned, no thanks, no anything. So 1033 00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:35,560 Speaker 1: just to recap, Marvin Gay thanked his future murderer, but 1034 00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,040 Speaker 1: not Barry Gordy. There's a line in here that I 1035 00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:41,319 Speaker 1: that I was maybe a jab at his dad or 1036 00:55:41,440 --> 00:55:43,440 Speaker 1: a couple of them. The father father we don't need 1037 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,520 Speaker 1: to escalate. Could be about God. Could also be about 1038 00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:51,440 Speaker 1: Marvin Gay's dad. There's another line in here, um, oh, 1039 00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:53,520 Speaker 1: in God is love when he says, love your mother, 1040 00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:56,279 Speaker 1: she bore you. Love your father, he works for you. 1041 00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,160 Speaker 1: And some people have posited that that was a dig 1042 00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,400 Speaker 1: at his dad, who was kind of underemployed through his 1043 00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,000 Speaker 1: childhood and that his mom ended up supported them. Yeah, 1044 00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:08,879 Speaker 1: that's right. I actually I have heard that about. Yeah. 1045 00:56:08,960 --> 00:56:15,359 Speaker 1: Their their whole just sighing heavily throughout this whole thing 1046 00:56:15,400 --> 00:56:18,399 Speaker 1: as we know how the Marvin Gay story. Side note, 1047 00:56:18,400 --> 00:56:21,000 Speaker 1: why is no one made a Marvin Gay biopic? Man? 1048 00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,600 Speaker 1: Is it because walk Hard came out and killed the music? 1049 00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,960 Speaker 1: Biopic like completely dead? I mean, maybe it could be 1050 00:56:28,040 --> 00:56:31,799 Speaker 1: like a licensing or like a state. Sure, I could 1051 00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:34,719 Speaker 1: imagine that being I mean they think of these are 1052 00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:39,480 Speaker 1: the people that suited Robin Thick for um blurredline, for 1053 00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,400 Speaker 1: a vibe for yeah, for for you know, inappropriately co 1054 00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:44,680 Speaker 1: opting the vibe of got to give it up. So 1055 00:56:45,000 --> 00:56:47,520 Speaker 1: I would imagine they would be a fairly litigious bunch. 1056 00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:52,040 Speaker 1: And maybe I didn't really because I as much as 1057 00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:55,040 Speaker 1: I love Marvin Gay and I really really do, the 1058 00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:58,200 Speaker 1: thought of sitting through a full movie about his life 1059 00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:02,520 Speaker 1: would just be such a colossal blumber I you know, yeah, 1060 00:57:02,560 --> 00:57:04,759 Speaker 1: I mean even just getting through here, my dear, and 1061 00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:08,319 Speaker 1: then getting out on the other side of here, my dear. 1062 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:12,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. The most haunting thing, I mean, when Marvin's 1063 00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:16,240 Speaker 1: dad shot him on I think the day before his birthday, 1064 00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:19,880 Speaker 1: and the police hauled him in and basically asked him 1065 00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:24,320 Speaker 1: to characterize his relationship with his son. And they've asked him, 1066 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:27,880 Speaker 1: point blake, did you love him? And his dad said, well, 1067 00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:35,160 Speaker 1: let's just say I didn't dislike him, So yeah, let's 1068 00:57:35,160 --> 00:57:37,360 Speaker 1: just maybe stick the YouTube clips. You're the one who 1069 00:57:37,360 --> 00:57:39,560 Speaker 1: showed me that like piano of him, like just playing 1070 00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,600 Speaker 1: the piano and singing along with that. Oh, man. Yeah, 1071 00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:45,800 Speaker 1: for anyone who hasn't seen this, there's this amazing clip 1072 00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:48,800 Speaker 1: I don't remember, with some concert film of him, I 1073 00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:53,440 Speaker 1: think performing in Belgium in the early eighties and he's 1074 00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,560 Speaker 1: just in the empty auditorium before anyone gets there, not 1075 00:57:56,600 --> 00:57:58,360 Speaker 1: even doing sound checks. I think you just see in 1076 00:57:58,400 --> 00:58:00,520 Speaker 1: the place and there's a baby grand out on stage 1077 00:58:01,120 --> 00:58:04,560 Speaker 1: and he just sits down and just starts ripping. For 1078 00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,680 Speaker 1: like seven minutes, he does this medley, Um, come get 1079 00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:12,680 Speaker 1: to this in distant Lover, and it is just the best. 1080 00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:16,080 Speaker 1: Please go check that out now. It is so great. 1081 00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,840 Speaker 1: It's like one of my It's easily my favorite Marvin 1082 00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,720 Speaker 1: Gay performance clip. Also a drummer, you know, like he 1083 00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:27,000 Speaker 1: drummed for the Miracles on the Road, like just such 1084 00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:31,160 Speaker 1: a Polly math genius guy. Uh. Despite all of that, 1085 00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:35,560 Speaker 1: What's going On not well received by the r I 1086 00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:39,800 Speaker 1: double A. Yes, What's going On? The album match the 1087 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:42,200 Speaker 1: success of the of the title song, that was released 1088 00:58:42,200 --> 00:58:45,680 Speaker 1: as a single, became the fastest selling album in Motown's history. 1089 00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,439 Speaker 1: Broke Ground was Motown's first concept album, paving the way 1090 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,640 Speaker 1: for acts like Stevie Wonder and Barry White. But despite 1091 00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:57,200 Speaker 1: all this, What's going on, not nominated for a single Grammy, 1092 00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:00,800 Speaker 1: But what was Carol King? Carol King dominated that year 1093 00:59:00,800 --> 00:59:03,920 Speaker 1: with tapestry. I have no quarrel with Carol King, but 1094 00:59:03,960 --> 00:59:06,040 Speaker 1: that still feels unfan. They should have made some room 1095 00:59:06,120 --> 00:59:09,800 Speaker 1: for for Marvin. I know, and he really uh in 1096 00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,160 Speaker 1: the category that he really expected to dominate. You know, 1097 00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:15,360 Speaker 1: the best Rhythm and Blues Maile performance Lou Rowles. One 1098 00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,120 Speaker 1: and ten years later, when Marvin Game was talking to 1099 00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,600 Speaker 1: his biographer David Ritz, he was still piste off about this. 1100 00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,120 Speaker 1: He said, Lou had gotten it before, and I never 1101 00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:26,640 Speaker 1: had not in the eleven years I've been making records. 1102 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,320 Speaker 1: I knew it was my time, but it wasn't. I 1103 00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,080 Speaker 1: was deeply hurt by the whole affair. I felt like 1104 00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,840 Speaker 1: I was swindled. I was mad at Lou. I didn't 1105 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:36,760 Speaker 1: like the way he handled it, and if I hadn't 1106 00:59:36,760 --> 00:59:39,960 Speaker 1: watched myself, I could have wound up fighting him. That's 1107 00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:42,280 Speaker 1: how piste I was. I thought I turned out a 1108 00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:44,360 Speaker 1: great work, and the Grammys didn't even give me the 1109 00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:48,000 Speaker 1: time of day. Politics. That's what it was, Hollywood games. 1110 00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,480 Speaker 1: I refused to play those games, and I suffered. He 1111 00:59:51,520 --> 00:59:53,960 Speaker 1: shouldn't have taken on Lou Rolls. Rolls is the best. 1112 00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:57,160 Speaker 1: I mean, that's a very telling line. I refused to 1113 00:59:57,160 --> 00:59:59,840 Speaker 1: play those games and I suffered. I mean, that's a 1114 01:00:00,120 --> 01:00:04,000 Speaker 1: very interesting summation of his career, if not his life. 1115 01:00:04,360 --> 01:00:08,080 Speaker 1: But you know, he successfully stared into the raging maw 1116 01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:11,600 Speaker 1: of Barry Gordy and came out on top. He renegotiated 1117 01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:15,320 Speaker 1: his contract with Motown over this, I mean, as as 1118 01:00:15,360 --> 01:00:17,880 Speaker 1: well he should have. I think it was the most 1119 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,960 Speaker 1: lucrative deal by a black recording artist ever at that time, 1120 01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:25,000 Speaker 1: and he would only accept the contract if Barry signed 1121 01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:30,000 Speaker 1: the check personally. A Motown Lackey had to drive to 1122 01:00:30,080 --> 01:00:32,600 Speaker 1: the airport to catch Barry Gordy before he took off 1123 01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:35,360 Speaker 1: on a flight to Europe to get his signature. No 1124 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,320 Speaker 1: one else's signature would do. It had to be berries. 1125 01:00:38,720 --> 01:00:41,080 Speaker 1: And then Marvin blew the check up into like one 1126 01:00:41,080 --> 01:00:44,600 Speaker 1: of over those oversized novelty like published his Baringhouse style checks. 1127 01:00:45,000 --> 01:00:47,640 Speaker 1: And he had it framed above the fireplace in his house, 1128 01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:50,160 Speaker 1: which is like a kid putting his report card on 1129 01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:52,640 Speaker 1: the fridge. I mean, on one hand, it's adorable, it's 1130 01:00:52,680 --> 01:00:55,960 Speaker 1: also deeply, deeply sad and troubling for a thirty to 1131 01:00:56,280 --> 01:00:58,240 Speaker 1: three year old man to do that. He gave some 1132 01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:01,560 Speaker 1: gold records to the Lions. Guys also read, Yeah, he 1133 01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:05,520 Speaker 1: was his his whole thing about like keepsakes. It's very 1134 01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:10,520 Speaker 1: and he's very endearing. He's said of this whole, of 1135 01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:13,680 Speaker 1: this whole check gate thing, I was getting more control, 1136 01:01:13,720 --> 01:01:16,960 Speaker 1: and I was determined to be rich, richer than Barry himself. 1137 01:01:17,320 --> 01:01:19,960 Speaker 1: That's always been a goal of mine. It's hard to 1138 01:01:20,000 --> 01:01:23,600 Speaker 1: describe how competitive I felt towards Barry Gordy and money 1139 01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:27,520 Speaker 1: is most people say doesn't buy happiness, and Marvin found 1140 01:01:27,560 --> 01:01:30,120 Speaker 1: that out many times over uh in later years, he 1141 01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:31,720 Speaker 1: would always be asked by people, you know, what are 1142 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:33,960 Speaker 1: you going to do? Another what's going on? And he'd say, 1143 01:01:34,160 --> 01:01:38,919 Speaker 1: when I get that depressed. His you know, his whole 1144 01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:40,720 Speaker 1: m O was a just sort of wallow in his 1145 01:01:40,760 --> 01:01:44,120 Speaker 1: own misery and use that as fuel for his art. Um. 1146 01:01:44,200 --> 01:01:47,840 Speaker 1: He has a great quote that's I say great, I 1147 01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,640 Speaker 1: mean I mean haunting artists suffer, so you don't have 1148 01:01:52,800 --> 01:01:58,720 Speaker 1: to um, And that pretty much sums it up. There's 1149 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:01,919 Speaker 1: another line in that David Ritz book Divided Soul, which 1150 01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,720 Speaker 1: is fantastic if you haven't checked it out, And this 1151 01:02:04,800 --> 01:02:08,360 Speaker 1: is David Ritz, the author writing by Design, Marvin's suffering 1152 01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:12,320 Speaker 1: soul became his most powerful source of artistic inspiration. Closely 1153 01:02:12,360 --> 01:02:16,000 Speaker 1: identifying with Jesus, Gay saw himself as a martyr, a 1154 01:02:16,000 --> 01:02:19,120 Speaker 1: man whose pain could be converted into artistic statements of 1155 01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:23,040 Speaker 1: real worth. In that sense, he triumphed where he failed though, 1156 01:02:23,320 --> 01:02:26,840 Speaker 1: where he so desperately wanted to succeed wasn't creating a 1157 01:02:26,880 --> 01:02:31,320 Speaker 1: happy family. Yeah, it's interesting he he knew he had 1158 01:02:31,360 --> 01:02:35,000 Speaker 1: something with this and apparently got hung up on it 1159 01:02:35,080 --> 01:02:38,440 Speaker 1: in different ways. There's a there's a demo that you 1160 01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:40,840 Speaker 1: can hear of a different of a song that ultimately 1161 01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:45,120 Speaker 1: never got released. Um where he's he's in the studio 1162 01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:50,840 Speaker 1: like working on a vocal melody and rather than you know, 1163 01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:54,760 Speaker 1: using vocal ease or whatever, he's just repeating the phrase 1164 01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:58,640 Speaker 1: what's going on over and over again to like work 1165 01:02:58,680 --> 01:03:03,440 Speaker 1: out this vocal melody. So clearly something about this stuck 1166 01:03:03,480 --> 01:03:08,000 Speaker 1: with him. You know when was this? There's a nineteen 1167 01:03:08,080 --> 01:03:10,720 Speaker 1: seventy demo that's out there of a track called Symphony, 1168 01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:12,919 Speaker 1: and it was never released on an album. And it's 1169 01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:15,240 Speaker 1: just when he would reever he would get stuck for words, 1170 01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:20,120 Speaker 1: he would just start repeating what's going on? Wow? Ye. 1171 01:03:20,640 --> 01:03:22,720 Speaker 1: And that's really interesting because you were saying earlier he 1172 01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:25,440 Speaker 1: never performed this live, which that doesn't sound right. You 1173 01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:29,240 Speaker 1: mean the full album? I think the whole the oh yeah, 1174 01:03:29,280 --> 01:03:33,320 Speaker 1: so the album was never performed in its entirety. It 1175 01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,720 Speaker 1: was only performed once exactly a year after its release. 1176 01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:40,200 Speaker 1: May first, nine two in d C, which is which 1177 01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:43,680 Speaker 1: is Marvin gay Day. Yes, we're dropping this episode as 1178 01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:47,080 Speaker 1: close to May one as possible because it's the fiftieth 1179 01:03:47,080 --> 01:03:51,480 Speaker 1: anniversary of Marvin Gay Day, which Marvin's hometown of Washington, 1180 01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:54,720 Speaker 1: d C. Declared in his honor back in ninety two. Uh. 1181 01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,840 Speaker 1: Marvin performed during these festivities, marking the first and I 1182 01:03:58,880 --> 01:04:02,560 Speaker 1: believe only time that his father ever saw him performing concert, 1183 01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:06,240 Speaker 1: and it was the only time that he ever felt 1184 01:04:06,280 --> 01:04:08,200 Speaker 1: that his father was truly proud of him. You would 1185 01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:11,560 Speaker 1: later say, um. And during the performance, they played What's 1186 01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:14,880 Speaker 1: going On twice because the people demanded it. Quite great 1187 01:04:14,920 --> 01:04:17,840 Speaker 1: to man, and you know, for a guy who had 1188 01:04:17,840 --> 01:04:21,880 Speaker 1: trouble feeling love and acceptance, it feels appropriate to remember 1189 01:04:21,960 --> 01:04:24,880 Speaker 1: him on this day. It's an obscure one in terms 1190 01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:27,480 Speaker 1: of music history, but an important one for him. So 1191 01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,920 Speaker 1: we honor Marvin Gay, we honor what's going on, and 1192 01:04:31,000 --> 01:04:35,400 Speaker 1: we thank you for taking this journey with us. Is 1193 01:04:35,440 --> 01:04:37,280 Speaker 1: that it? I think that's uh, I think that is 1194 01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:39,720 Speaker 1: what's going on. Oh how long did it take you 1195 01:04:39,760 --> 01:04:44,160 Speaker 1: to get to that point? Zero eight seconds? Anyway, I'm 1196 01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,840 Speaker 1: Alex Heigel and I'm Jordan run Tug. Thanks so much 1197 01:04:46,840 --> 01:04:55,400 Speaker 1: for listening. Too Much Information was a production of I 1198 01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:58,720 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. The show's executive producers are Noel Brown and 1199 01:04:58,800 --> 01:05:02,920 Speaker 1: Jordan Runtug, Provising producers Mike John's. The show was researched, 1200 01:05:03,080 --> 01:05:05,760 Speaker 1: written and hosted by Jordan run Talk and Alex Hegel, 1201 01:05:06,080 --> 01:05:09,200 Speaker 1: with original music by Seth Applebaum and the Ghost Funk Orchestra. 1202 01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:11,720 Speaker 1: If you like what you heard, please subscribe and leave 1203 01:05:11,800 --> 01:05:14,320 Speaker 1: us a review. For more podcasts and I heart Radio, 1204 01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:17,400 Speaker 1: visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 1205 01:05:17,520 --> 01:05:18,800 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.