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Speaker 1: One quick note before we start. I have a brand

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Speaker 1: new podcast from my Heart Radio called Popcorn Book Club.

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Speaker 1: I invited four of my smartest and funniest friends to

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Speaker 1: join me discussing books that have gotten the Hollywood treatment.

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Speaker 1: So search for it now on I Heart Radio app

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. That's Popcorn Book Club.

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Speaker 1: Take a listen. Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of

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Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild from Aaron Minky.

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Speaker 1: Listener discretion is advised for this episode of Noble Blood,

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Speaker 1: I'll be doing something a little bit different. Usually the

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Speaker 1: stories I tell are ones filtered through decades, if not

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Speaker 1: hundreds of years. But sometimes I come across the story

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Speaker 1: so bizarre, so fascinating, so well everything that I ever

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Speaker 1: want an episode of Noble Blood to be. That. Even

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Speaker 1: though we don't quite have the established consensus of history yet,

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Speaker 1: I can't us talking about it. And that's why today

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the strange and mysterious happenings that occurred

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Speaker 1: in southwest France when an aristocratic family fell under the

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Speaker 1: spell of a con man named Terry Tilly. But here's

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Speaker 1: the thing. This story is from two thousand one. This

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Speaker 1: is still technically with appeals an ongoing court case in France.

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Speaker 1: So take everything I say with the caveat that the

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Speaker 1: truth isn't yet available to us, or may never be

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Speaker 1: available to us. So rather than reading a normal episode

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Speaker 1: of Noble Blood, which I prefer to write from my

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Speaker 1: position of relative finality and comfortable hindsight, for this one,

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Speaker 1: I'll be talking with my wonderful research assistant, Hannah Johnston,

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Speaker 1: and together we will try our best to get to

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Speaker 1: the bottom of this strange, strange story. I'm Danish forts

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Speaker 1: and this is Noble Blood. So, Hannah, what did you

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Speaker 1: make of this story? From what what you read? Um?

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Speaker 1: What I made of the story, I think is just

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Speaker 1: that you know, I have been studying history for a

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Speaker 1: long time and have seen a lot of really absolutely bonkers,

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Speaker 1: you know, stories from history, and this really drove home

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Speaker 1: that people have always been and will always be, extremely strange. Um,

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Speaker 1: and some of them may be evil a little bit.

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Speaker 1: And of one thing that I found very compelling about

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Speaker 1: the story, which again we will get to in just

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Speaker 1: a moment, is I think there delusions of grandeur. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: being a Protestant noble in France doesn't mean much these days,

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Speaker 1: but I think a sense of self importance made them

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Speaker 1: incredibly susceptible to falling into a cult a plot that

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Speaker 1: I think to anyone else would have sounded ridiculous. Absolutely,

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Speaker 1: that was something that I was thinking a lot about.

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Speaker 1: I think I wrote in my notes that if someone

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Speaker 1: told me that there were forces in the world that

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Speaker 1: we're trying to destroy me and my family, I would

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Speaker 1: laugh in their face. There's nothing to make me believe

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Speaker 1: that I'm that important. But yeah, I think that like

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Speaker 1: the nostalgia of being a noble from a noble family

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Speaker 1: and having this big, long history, yeah, opens you up

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Speaker 1: to being believing that your actions have some like larger

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Speaker 1: global impact. So the two main sources that I came

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Speaker 1: to when I was trying to get to the bottom

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Speaker 1: of the story, we're first a Vanity Fair article by

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Speaker 1: Michael Joseph Gross called Aristocrats and Demons, that's very fascinating

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Speaker 1: and I think does a really good, in depth job

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Speaker 1: of getting to the bottom of the story. And a

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Speaker 1: memoir by one of the family members involved. But uh,

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Speaker 1: I just before we start, I just wanted to begin

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Speaker 1: with the caveat that we're not consulting a wide variety

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Speaker 1: of sources because I just I don't think they're available. No,

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Speaker 1: and whatever else beyond I think there are a couple

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Speaker 1: of Guardian articles too, is all in French, which I

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Speaker 1: do not read yet. Um, I have big dreams of

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Speaker 1: learning it. I started this quarantine with some Rosetta stone

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Speaker 1: that is still very much in early days. Yeah, my

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Speaker 1: dual lingo owl is very mad at me. Um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: there is also another memoir I found. Um, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to really butcher her name. The Yeah, the aunt or

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Speaker 1: the sister Um wrote a memoir with her husband that

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Speaker 1: has yet to be translated. So there is more out

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Speaker 1: there that if if anyone reads French, I can't pronounce

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Speaker 1: the name, but it looks interesting. Well, I think that

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Speaker 1: is a great segue to who this family is. I

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Speaker 1: think we should give everyone a family trait of the oh,

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Speaker 1: my God and my French. I'm so sorry if my

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Speaker 1: pronunciation David family. I believe that I was saying vedrem

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Speaker 1: vejory that that seems if we say Davidori, is that

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Speaker 1: that sounds horrible. Apologies to anyone French. Yes, my deepest apology.

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Speaker 1: The Daviddori family, which uh is a as I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: Protestant nobles in the southwest France, which basically means they

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Speaker 1: have some established wealth, they live in a lovely chateau

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Speaker 1: or they lived in a lovely chateau with like a

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Speaker 1: turret and three stories. But the family are the major

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Speaker 1: players in this family again, Hannah, please correct my pronunciation.

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Speaker 1: The matriarch gi Met I believe that. Yeah, who's you know,

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Speaker 1: an eighty eight year old older woman, and Gimett has

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Speaker 1: three adult children. Three children. There's Philippe who is in

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Speaker 1: his sixties, who was a executive at Shell Oil. Her

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Speaker 1: daughter jes I ran it through a French textas speech,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's Guila Gila, thank you so much.

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Speaker 1: But that's just from like TTS dot com or something,

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Speaker 1: so maybe not accurate. So uh, Philippe gui La, who

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Speaker 1: was in her mid fifties and ran a secretarial school,

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Speaker 1: and then Charles Henry, who was fifty three early young,

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Speaker 1: you know, early fifties at the start of this story

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Speaker 1: and was an obstetrician. So these are all professional, wealthy,

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Speaker 1: established people in the world. Uh. And then the the

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Speaker 1: side characters will come in our the partners and children

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Speaker 1: of these three main siblings, and I think the dynamic

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Speaker 1: that we meet these siblings in is Charles Henry, who's

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Speaker 1: the youngest of the of the three, is the one

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Speaker 1: who lives at Chateau Martel, the family's estate, because he

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Speaker 1: has the income to supported and you know, as an obstetrician.

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Speaker 1: And Philippe the oldest, does feel like he's sort of

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Speaker 1: entitled to it or should be, but he's going through

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Speaker 1: a divorce at this moment. I don't really know how

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Speaker 1: successful he is at Shell Oil, but he he didn't

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Speaker 1: didn't have the income to sustain a massive estate, and

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Speaker 1: so it went to to his brother. I think Michael

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Speaker 1: Grows refers to him as a he exudes a stork

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Speaker 1: like bearing of wounded pride. Yeah, yeah, it seems I

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Speaker 1: don't know, as a in a noble family, being the

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Speaker 1: the oldest son and not getting the you know, the

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Speaker 1: big castle is probably a big blow, so I get it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And Geelong, the daughter, is married to a man named

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Speaker 1: Jean Marschauan and she runs, as we mentioned that a

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Speaker 1: secretarial school in Paris. And she also has a daughter

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Speaker 1: named gi Met also named after her grandmother, I assume,

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Speaker 1: who is twenty four and getting married to a concert pianist,

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Speaker 1: which I found was lovely until it all goes wrong. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I was so excited for her, I feel like, and

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Speaker 1: they had this beautiful wedding with all these you know,

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Speaker 1: Parisian performers, and then the next page everything went to

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Speaker 1: the garbage. That was very sad to read. So I

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Speaker 1: think that is probably where we meet. I've been saying

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Speaker 1: Terry Tilly, but is it? Is it? I don't think

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Speaker 1: that I could make my mouth make the sound. I

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Speaker 1: think the last name is like t or something like that,

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Speaker 1: but it's just impossible for me. We'll just have to

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Speaker 1: do the the bastardized American americanized version. But it's this

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Speaker 1: bespeckled con man, or maybe not just this, this bespeckled

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Speaker 1: gentleman who begins working at Gee Laws secretary school. He is,

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Speaker 1: begins as a night tea man and sort of works

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Speaker 1: his way up until he's the second in command, getting

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Speaker 1: paid the most, and befriending Galan to such a degree

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Speaker 1: that her husband is worried that she's having an affair. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would be worried. I'd be worried too if I

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Speaker 1: saw my wife, you know, paying these massive amounts of

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Speaker 1: money to some strange man who's sort of a jack

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Speaker 1: of all trades. Um. I believe he got the school

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Speaker 1: a whole new set of computers and nobody's really sure

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Speaker 1: where they came from or you know, where that money

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Speaker 1: came from. And then he's taking all these secret meetings

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Speaker 1: with her, So I absolutely get believing that there's an

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Speaker 1: affair going on. And then his behavior sort of starts

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Speaker 1: getting even weirder. At the school, he has large, imposing

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Speaker 1: Polish security guards and rott Wiler's patrolling. He sort of

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Speaker 1: takes over the school in a way that reminded me

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Speaker 1: a little bit of like Project Mayhem in Fight Club,

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Speaker 1: where you're like, who's running the ship? This former I

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Speaker 1: tamn now has Polish security guards and Rottweiler's patrolling the school.

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Speaker 1: But I think even more threatening is this is where

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Speaker 1: he starts telling Gila that there's a Freemason conspiracy that's

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Speaker 1: out to get her family, that the Freemasons are trying

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Speaker 1: to get. First, he just says, are trying to get

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Speaker 1: property that the secretarial school is on that they you know,

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Speaker 1: will stop at nothing to get this property. But then

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Speaker 1: I think the the suspicions sort of widened too. There's

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Speaker 1: this massive worldwide conspiracy there are agents of evil everywhere,

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Speaker 1: and anyone can be a Freemason. So Gila starts seeing

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Speaker 1: Freemasons everywhere, and she starts getting incredibly paranoid. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: in the I Think the Vanity Fair article, John is

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Speaker 1: mentioned noticing that you know, it's friends, it's family who

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Speaker 1: are suddenly agents of this freemasonic cult or conspiracy to

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Speaker 1: tear the family apart or destroy them somehow. And that's,

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Speaker 1: you know, in the con Man playbook, I suppose, is

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Speaker 1: just the the easiest, fastest way I can imagine to

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Speaker 1: isolate a family really quickly um an exert control paranoia,

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Speaker 1: and especially if someone is secretly believes all along that

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Speaker 1: they are special and that they are meant to hold

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Speaker 1: some significance in the world order, I can understand why

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Speaker 1: someone would be susceptible to that. But Terry Telly doesn't

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Speaker 1: end with his relationship with the law. I don't know

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Speaker 1: whether the wedding was where he met the rest of

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Speaker 1: the family, but I do like that sort of as

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Speaker 1: a set piece as the idea where this is sort

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Speaker 1: of where he infiltrate the rest of the family. So

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Speaker 1: at Gila daughter, he met wedding where she's as we mentioned,

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Speaker 1: before marrying a he seems lovely a pianist named Sebastian Uh.

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Speaker 1: Terry begins befriending and flattering the other members of the family,

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Speaker 1: and they mentioned that he is an excellent flatterer, Like

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Speaker 1: I'll go up to Philippe, who's that shell oil executive,

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Speaker 1: and say, like, you should be running shell oil. He

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Speaker 1: appeals to that sense of grandeur in a way that

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Speaker 1: he's interesting to me because looking at pictures of Terry Tilly,

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Speaker 1: he's not a striking, conventionally attractive or imposing man. He's

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Speaker 1: he looks, you know, he's on the smaller side. He

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Speaker 1: wears glasses. He looks like a regular like I t guy,

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Speaker 1: And I wonder if because he doesn't seem as imposing,

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Speaker 1: it's almost more seductive in a way, Like he doesn't

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Speaker 1: look like a con man, right, he doesn't look like

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Speaker 1: a handsome, slick, greasy guy. Yeah. I remember Christine and

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Speaker 1: her memo're talking about she met him once before meeting

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Speaker 1: him officially, Like she met this guy who wasn't introduced

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Speaker 1: by name, and he looked slimy and greasy and disgusting.

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Speaker 1: And she remarks that if if she had known at

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Speaker 1: the time that this was Tilly. She would have never

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Speaker 1: gone near him. And he's never described as particularly handsome

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Speaker 1: or dashing or even very charming. He kind of starts

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Speaker 1: out very um and he's shaking hands so hard that

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Speaker 1: he's hurting people, and I, I don't know. Normally these

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Speaker 1: kinds of guys are very charismatic and often attractive, but

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Speaker 1: he does not fit the part perfectly. No, which is

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Speaker 1: you know, makes it a little chilling. You know, cult

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Speaker 1: I know is a loaded word, but it does seem,

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Speaker 1: especially with Gilan, that she becomes brainwashed with with paranoia

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Speaker 1: and really falls under Tilly spell to the degree at

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Speaker 1: which there's this bizarre incident where her husband, Jean Jean Marschand,

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Speaker 1: who had been uh skeptical to say the least about

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Speaker 1: her paranoia about the Freemasons, she confronts him with a

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Speaker 1: wearing a cocktail dress with a fistful of dried flowers

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Speaker 1: and a gardening glove. She throws the flowers and gloves

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Speaker 1: in his face, tells him that he's an agent of evil.

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Speaker 1: I believe it was a part of an evil network. Rather,

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Speaker 1: it tells him that he has half an hour to pack,

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Speaker 1: and that she wanted divorce he's physically restrained by then

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Speaker 1: her two other brothers, Philippe and Charles Henry, and forced

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Speaker 1: to leave the the house. And then, in an incredibly

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Speaker 1: chilling moment, he sees an email from Tilly to his

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Speaker 1: now ex wife telling her to do exactly what she

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Speaker 1: said she was going to do, like telling her okay,

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Speaker 1: road dried flowers and a glove in his face and

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Speaker 1: tell him he's part of an evil network. So he

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Speaker 1: has infiltrated her to such a degree that he she's

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Speaker 1: obeying him in these bizarre instructions to throw her husband

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Speaker 1: out of the house, and it's really heartbreaking. John describes

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Speaker 1: it as as feeling like her brain had been replaced,

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Speaker 1: that Terry Tilly had stolen her brain. Yeah. I really

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Speaker 1: love the description of him as a brain burglar um,

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Speaker 1: which is a delightful, if upsetting phrase. Yeah, just wild.

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Speaker 1: It seems to me that the next few events that

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Speaker 1: happened with his family we have he's last stopped paying

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Speaker 1: teachers at her secretarial school, and they just kept teaching. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they kept teaching. I guess they're you know, hoped that

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Speaker 1: it would stop eventually and she would start paying them again.

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Speaker 1: I imagine I guess so. But then she shut it down, right,

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Speaker 1: she just knows the whole thing shuts the school down,

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Speaker 1: stops paying electricity and power. Because then, for a brief

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Speaker 1: period after her divorce, which I could not make heads

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Speaker 1: or tales of, she her brother Philippe, the shell oil One,

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Speaker 1: and Philip's girlfriend Brigitte all live on the top floor

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Speaker 1: of this secretarial school with no power electricity. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the only explanation I could have is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: Terry Tilly told them like your house is being watched

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Speaker 1: and you know, you need to live off the grid

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Speaker 1: for a little bit or something like that, because we

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Speaker 1: don't really get an explanation of that brief period now.

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Speaker 1: And there are a couple of other episodes of various

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Speaker 1: members of the family being forced to or for some

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Speaker 1: reason choose who ever earn a cord live in abandoned buildings.

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Speaker 1: It seems like, um, the Christine and Charles and Rees's

255
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Speaker 1: son a Maori. Yeah, but the one of the younger

256
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Speaker 1: sons lived in an abandoned office building for several months

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Speaker 1: and that was that was played as some sort of punishment,

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Speaker 1: But glam was never really punished because she was so

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Speaker 1: close to Tilly um, she was sort of the central

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Speaker 1: point of contact between him and Gills. You know, family

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Speaker 1: and not friends, just family. Yeah, well, it's about this point.

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Speaker 1: I would imagine that basically the entire family now moves

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Speaker 1: in to the ancestral chateau and everyone becomes isolated from

264
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Speaker 1: their friends and the family that is not part of this.

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Speaker 1: The young bride he met leaves her new pianist husband

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Speaker 1: like like right away three months three months after the wedding,

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Speaker 1: leaves him, moves back in. Charles Henry, the obstetrician, just

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Speaker 1: leaves his practice without warning to his partners or patients.

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Speaker 1: Everyone just seems like leaves their jobs, leaves their significant others.

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Speaker 1: Charles Henry's wife, Christine, who becomes a major player in this, tells,

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Speaker 1: you know, cuts off contact with her friends and when

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Speaker 1: her friends try to reach out to where she's like that,

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Speaker 1: it's a family. It's a really important family thing that's

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Speaker 1: happening right now. So at this point, all of them

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Speaker 1: sell their external properties, the properties that aren't this house,

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Speaker 1: so all the places that they had been living and

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Speaker 1: all the savings and money they had, and they give

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Speaker 1: all of their money to Tilly. Yeah. So now it's

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Speaker 1: eleven people I think living at this of the castle.

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Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I like this nice, medium sized state.

281
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Speaker 1: Three generations from he met the eight year old grandmother.

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Speaker 1: I think the youngest is Diane at sixteen, who is

283
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Speaker 1: Charles Henry and Christine's daughter. So the children in play.

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Speaker 1: We already talked about Gelon's daughter, the bride who leaves

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Speaker 1: her husband. She has a brother, Francois. But I think

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Speaker 1: that the main child who becomes a character in this

287
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Speaker 1: story for bizarre reasons is Um. And this is the

288
00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:15,520
Speaker 1: problem with aristocratic French families that they all name their

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Speaker 1: kids the exact same things. Right. Is that how you

290
00:19:19,560 --> 00:19:22,320
Speaker 1: would say it, I would suppose, so, I think so

291
00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:25,800
Speaker 1: that's how I've been pronouncing it in my head. So, Um,

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Speaker 1: who is Charles Henry the obstetrician, the oldest adult son

293
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Speaker 1: and Christine's oldest son. Yeah, he does a lot of

294
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Speaker 1: crazy stuff that I am very excited to get into.

295
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Speaker 1: So let's talk about this period where the family is

296
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Speaker 1: living at the estate together. Sure, yeah, I think I know. Yeah,

297
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Speaker 1: there are eleven of them living in the house. I

298
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Speaker 1: know at some point Diane was sent away. Um, she

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Speaker 1: went to boarding school, And I think this may have

300
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Speaker 1: been before Chasmrie was kind of back in the picture

301
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Speaker 1: for a while. He was in Bordeaux with I guess

302
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Speaker 1: still with his practice at the time, and then there

303
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:10,280
Speaker 1: were eleven people at the estate at Martel. At some point,

304
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Speaker 1: I think in somewhere between two thousand two and two

305
00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:18,880
Speaker 1: thousand three, Tilly ordered everyone to banish clocks and calendars

306
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Speaker 1: from their chateau, which meant they had no reference of

307
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Speaker 1: time or what day it was, um, which is another

308
00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 1: tried and true brainwashing tactic of just disorienting the people

309
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Speaker 1: that you're trying to manipulate. Um. So they're all living

310
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Speaker 1: sequestered in this house, no idea what day it is.

311
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Speaker 1: They're in the news for a while as like the

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Speaker 1: famous recluses of their town, which is I believe pronounced

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Speaker 1: mont Flancin. That seems right, but yeah, so basically the

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Speaker 1: only interest in them up until this point is sort

315
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Speaker 1: of tabloid interest where people are like, isn't it weird

316
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Speaker 1: that this you know, wealthy family is just also quest

317
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Speaker 1: stirred in their house and cut off contact with everyone.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like a just a a weird bit

319
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,200
Speaker 1: of news. But the true bizarre nature of the story

320
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 1: doesn't really unfold until later. I mean, they stopped, so

321
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Speaker 1: they stop paying taxes, and so the French government reclaims furniture,

322
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Speaker 1: just comes in and, you know, to start taking furniture repossessed.

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Speaker 1: That's the word, thank you, repossesses everything. And so then

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Speaker 1: you just imagine this, this family of eleven formerly wealthy

325
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Speaker 1: people living in creepy, abandoned squalor terrified that Freemasons are

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Speaker 1: going to kill them. And Terry Tilly sort of keeps

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Speaker 1: his leadership by saying that he's a member of this

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Speaker 1: organization and in touch with a character that I still

329
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: do not understand. And I think the main reason that

330
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: I'm very confused by this is he says that the

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Speaker 1: leader of this secretive organization is a man named Jacques Gonzalez. Oh,

332
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Speaker 1: I have no idea what to make of him. Christine

333
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 1: said talks about him like once in her book, and

334
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: the Vanity Fair article talks about him like once or twice.

335
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Speaker 1: He's an enigma, and Guillam will try to appear as

336
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 1: him later or try to pose as him, and I

337
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 1: think my favorite incident of the story. But so that's

338
00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 1: I think part of the shadowy thing that Tilly does

339
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: is he just makes him feel like something much bigger

340
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,720
Speaker 1: than them is going on, where he'll take calls from

341
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: like this mysterious leader Jacque Gonzalez, who he says is

342
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:44,240
Speaker 1: connected to the Spanish king. So it doesn't seem like

343
00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 1: Tilly is the head of this He's just the the

344
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:53,120
Speaker 1: reliable go between between this family and some legitimate, terrifying organization.

345
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Speaker 1: But eventually, then this family moves to Oxford. Do you

346
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Speaker 1: want to take over and talk a bit about what, what,

347
00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 1: how ths when this family moves to England. Sure? So

348
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Speaker 1: by my count, we're now in around two thousand five.

349
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Speaker 1: So at some point between two thousand three and two, um,

350
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Speaker 1: Till he moved his family, his his wife Jessica, and

351
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Speaker 1: you think he had a few children and someone had

352
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: a child from a previous manner marriage. Um, they moved

353
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Speaker 1: to Oxford mostly because till he was facing some legal

354
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,479
Speaker 1: problems in France. I don't quite understand the French legal system,

355
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,680
Speaker 1: but it looked sort of like embezzlement or something adjacent

356
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: to that. And it also seemed to me that Tilly

357
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 1: was getting a little nervous about the French tabloids interest

358
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Speaker 1: in this family. I think that as a as an

359
00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:54,640
Speaker 1: organization or as a con It thrived in secrecy, absolutely,

360
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:57,520
Speaker 1: and I don't think he wanted the you know, as

361
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Speaker 1: a local rich family. They were. They were an object

362
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:05,760
Speaker 1: of interest. And he moves them in various in drips

363
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,000
Speaker 1: and drabs, both to his shabby apartment. And when I

364
00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:13,560
Speaker 1: say Oxford, we're not like, we're not at the university.

365
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:17,960
Speaker 1: This is like the bleak suburbs of Oxford, the outskirts.

366
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Speaker 1: So he moves them in drips and drabs, and they've

367
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:27,840
Speaker 1: always been civilians but become invisible working class people, deeply

368
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: embroiled in this cult. I mean, cult is so weird

369
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,119
Speaker 1: because it's one family. But I'm just trying to communicate,

370
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 1: like the the it seems the brainwashing and commitment to

371
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Speaker 1: this these beliefs. Yeah, I mean, I think a cult

372
00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 1: is a reasonable way of describing it, or maybe a

373
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Speaker 1: sect of some kind. They didn't have like a religious aspect,

374
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Speaker 1: which maybe makes it different from other kinds of cults.

375
00:24:52,560 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: But there are so few words to describe what was

376
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: happening to this family. It's an era national set of

377
00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 1: beliefs that they are so committed to that they forego

378
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives yeah, you know what I mean,

379
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:08,439
Speaker 1: like the outside world that they cut off their friends

380
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: and their jobs and they become deeply devoted to Tilly.

381
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:17,719
Speaker 1: So with them living, various family members come over at

382
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: at various points, and then they start working at menial jobs.

383
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: They had been you know, working class professionals, and they

384
00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:30,440
Speaker 1: all sort of get jobs like sweeping the floor at Nando's,

385
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: at fast food restaurants. Yeah, so by I think it's

386
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: two dozen six. They're Christine and CHELSONI and the rest

387
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: of their children other than Guillaume who had been there

388
00:25:40,880 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 1: for a while, come and take these jobs. And yeah, um,

389
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: Diane I believe, is the one working at Nando's. And

390
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 1: they're all working these these menial, manual labor type jobs.

391
00:25:52,320 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: They're working insane hours so that they're they're sleeping maybe

392
00:25:56,040 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: three or four hours a night, and they're giving I

393
00:25:58,640 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 1: think it's nine of their pay went directly to Tilly

394
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,159
Speaker 1: without any you know, any negotiation of any kind. So

395
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: they're working, you know, some of them are working more

396
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: than two jobs. I think was he was the only

397
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,360
Speaker 1: one with a college degree in that of the children,

398
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 1: so he's working I think a little bit more professionally.

399
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,680
Speaker 1: He was working at an archaeological firm of some kind,

400
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 1: but he was also bartending at night, and he was

401
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 1: responsible for caring for Tilly's children. That's just an in

402
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: human work schedule, which obviously was by design, so that there,

403
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,360
Speaker 1: you know, too exhausted to really consider their situation at all.

404
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: That is a real cult technique. The lack of the manipulation,

405
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,640
Speaker 1: their lack of sleep. Yeah, and that comes into play

406
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: later when um, Christine and the rest are all sequestered

407
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:56,119
Speaker 1: for two weeks in this creepy empty house in Oxford. Yeah.

408
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 1: So to to set the scene again, the the members

409
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: of the family that had formerly been white collar professionals,

410
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: wealthy members of the French aristocracy, are now in dingy

411
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:15,480
Speaker 1: apartment working one to two menial jobs, constantly giving almost

412
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:19,440
Speaker 1: all of their income to Tilly and listening to whatever

413
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,679
Speaker 1: he says, which I think, as you teased very nicely,

414
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:27,480
Speaker 1: would lead to them being sequestered. This is a dark period,

415
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: and I think Christine, her memoir was definitely the source

416
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: I went to for for this story, because she was

417
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: the victim of a lot of this. Do you want

418
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 1: to do you want to take over what happened here? Sure? So, Yes,

419
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: Oxford is kind of where, um, at least from my perspective,

420
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: everything comes to a head, and it really all focuses

421
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: on Christine, who, if you'll remember, is Chas's wife, UM

422
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,680
Speaker 1: and the mother of several of these children. She and

423
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: Charles and Rie had moved to Oxford in two and

424
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:12,160
Speaker 1: pretty much immediately Christine was punished for being a liar

425
00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: or you know, being dishonest with her husband. UM, and

426
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: she was sequestered almost entirely alone in a room UM

427
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,880
Speaker 1: a pretty you know, red bear furniture. She talks about this.

428
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 1: I suppose it's some sort of comforter um that she

429
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 1: really liked it till he took away. And she was

430
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: sequestered for I think from November two until Spring two seven.

431
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: She was alone most of the time, UM, and she

432
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 1: was forced to write every day. And I believe it's

433
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: around this time that the idea of the transmission and

434
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 1: the Lequili Dumont begins to come up. UM, and Christine

435
00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: is really at the center of that. Yeah. Liquibly demand

436
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: again which I will try to pronounce to me just

437
00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: read as the big evil organization that that Telly sets

438
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: them up, that he says is out to get them

439
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: in the world, sort of the Freemason version of the story,

440
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 1: and he has it in his mind and convinces the

441
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: rest of the family, including Christine, that Christine is secretly

442
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: the key and knows deep down the numbers to this

443
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 1: Belgian bank account that will have more golden riches than

444
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: anyone can ever imagine, and that for some reason Christine

445
00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: either doesn't remember or won't tell them the numbers. And

446
00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: what happens now is her family, including her children and

447
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: her husband. I mean they torture her. Yes, yeah, they

448
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: I think thankfully her children were not there, or at

449
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 1: least if they were there, it would have been just

450
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: killam I think I think m giam was there. But

451
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 1: they for about two weeks in January two UM. And

452
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,280
Speaker 1: this is also after uh Tillie had made Christine go

453
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,600
Speaker 1: with I believe Guillaume two Brussels UM and try to

454
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: access safe deposit box at nearly every bank in the city,

455
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: because I guess that would be a way of getting

456
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: around whatever number he believed or wanted her to believe

457
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,560
Speaker 1: that she had in her you know, the recesses of

458
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 1: her mind. Um. But eventually that didn't work, and for

459
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 1: two weeks in this, you know, very empty. Christine describes

460
00:30:34,240 --> 00:30:39,760
Speaker 1: it as completely neutral, very very creepy house. Christine and

461
00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: the family are. They're deprived of sleep, and Christine in

462
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: particular is not allowed to sleep. At certain points, she's

463
00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: not allowed to use the restroom, um, she's forbidden from eating,

464
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: and at some point Tilly, in trying to get her

465
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: to reveal this number that she is either suppressing or

466
00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: purposely hiding, he punches her several times in the back,

467
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 1: at which point everything sort of sort of falls apart,

468
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: and different family members are than accused of maybe they're

469
00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: the one hiding this special number that you know. Apparently

470
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: this this transmission is passed down through you know, the

471
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: most important families in all of France or the world

472
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 1: that will access them this money that would supposedly get

473
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 1: them out of all the financial trouble they've been building

474
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 1: up since their relationship with Tilly began. I believe it

475
00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 1: was Christine, but I might be incorrect. And who said

476
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: this made an interesting point that you think with a

477
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,200
Speaker 1: large number of people that they wouldn't have been as

478
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 1: susceptible to till these like in the abstract ludicrous things.

479
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: But she points out like with a large number of

480
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,959
Speaker 1: people that you all trust and its air support system

481
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 1: in the world that whenever anyone pointed out that a

482
00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:59,880
Speaker 1: thing was seemed ridiculous, then there were immediately, you know,

483
00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 1: ten other people who could tell you, no, no, you know,

484
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:05,640
Speaker 1: you're being silly, and justify it to yourself. It was

485
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: sort of the self reinforcing thing where the group itself

486
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:15,040
Speaker 1: convinced itself that these things were less ludicrous than they

487
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: sound when you just hear about them in the abstract.

488
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: In isolation, yeah, absolutely, And I think by this time too, there,

489
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:27,600
Speaker 1: you know, they've been isolated from the rest of the world,

490
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: from really anyone who could tell them, hey, this is

491
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 1: absolutely crazy for what almost you know, seven years, six

492
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 1: years um, and they've been you know, they'd already been

493
00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:44,800
Speaker 1: through the rigamarole of sleep deprivation, and you know, none

494
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: of them had seen clocks or calendars for years and

495
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,280
Speaker 1: years at that point. So if I were in that position,

496
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: I believe anything anyone told me, because that's their only

497
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: point of reference for the world. And at this point

498
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: you have no friends, you have no job, you're heavily

499
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,800
Speaker 1: in debt back in France, you know, and and in

500
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 1: trouble financially, and your entire family and your support network

501
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: is here. Believing all these things, it would be it's

502
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,680
Speaker 1: incredibly hard to get out of that. Yeah. And if

503
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: if you believed even for a second that you had

504
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: something in your brain that could make it all go away,

505
00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 1: and and the torture and you know, get your your

506
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: chateau back and all the comforts that you've lost, I

507
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: would I believe it too, I would. I don't know.

508
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: I try. Uh. That's the really heartbreaking thing is Christine,

509
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: even as she's being tortured and not allowed to eat

510
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 1: and not allowed to use the bathroom, she is angry

511
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: at herself because she also believes that she does have

512
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: that key, and she's just mad that she can't remember it. Yeah,

513
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: that was very hard to read. And I think Christine's

514
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 1: writing obviously has the hindsight of, you know, now knowing

515
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,200
Speaker 1: that it was ridiculous, which I think soften it a

516
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 1: little bit. But realizing, I don't know, the feeling of

517
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: thinking about being in that position was very hard. And

518
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 1: there's one more thing that I wanted to point out

519
00:34:08,840 --> 00:34:12,560
Speaker 1: that happens at some point when they're in Oxford. But

520
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 1: I take it with a grain of salt, because I

521
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: know that from what I've read, they're trying to challenge

522
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,919
Speaker 1: this legally to be able to get their chateau back.

523
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:24,319
Speaker 1: I read actually that that was rejected in so the

524
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,720
Speaker 1: story might be over. They might not get it at all.

525
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:28,279
Speaker 1: I don't think so they're not going to get it.

526
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: But so basically what happened is Charles Henry, who Charles

527
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: Henry again my pronunciation, I'm so sorry is depending what

528
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:40,760
Speaker 1: you believe, either tricked or voluntarily signs over the chateau

529
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 1: to Tilly's family estate that's been in the family for generations.

530
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: And I think, in hindsight, when the family gets out

531
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: of this is the most heartbreaking loss. And as I said,

532
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: I guess no longer ongoing court case. They tried to

533
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: challenge it to get the chateau back, but I guess,

534
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 1: uh it is it is gone. Yeah, I Google translated

535
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: a French article um that apparently they obviously they contested

536
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: the sale because it was under false pretenses. I believe

537
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: they claimed that they were told that they were filing

538
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,840
Speaker 1: a mortgage or putting it in some sort of I

539
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,319
Speaker 1: don't trust or I don't know any financial buzzwords. But

540
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,719
Speaker 1: they believed that it was kind of waiting for them

541
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:30,400
Speaker 1: when they had the money to get it back, but

542
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:34,760
Speaker 1: then someone bought it and apparently it's a nice family

543
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 1: lives there now, or at least was at last at

544
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:42,719
Speaker 1: press time, a mom with a kid. It sounded like yeah,

545
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: But this article says that they the Court of Appeals

546
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: rejected them in so I mean, maybe they could buy

547
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: it back someday. I don't think it precludes them ever

548
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: getting it back, but not in the way that they want,

549
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: I think. And while they're in Oxford. This is also

550
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: there's a lot of complicated family in fighting that happened

551
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,319
Speaker 1: that I don't think it's worth getting quite into that,

552
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 1: just because it becomes challenging, you know, Various family members

553
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,759
Speaker 1: at different points are leaving and coming and challenging each other.

554
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 1: A lot of lawsuits that I couldn't quite follow. But

555
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: one really strange thing that happened that I cannot wait

556
00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:28,440
Speaker 1: to talk about is Giam, the twentysomething son of Charles

557
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:33,479
Speaker 1: Hunry and Christine, sort of becomes Tilly's right hand man

558
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: for a time period until he sort of cut himself

559
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 1: off from Tilly, seems to be doing his own thing

560
00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,399
Speaker 1: in a in a weird way. And then one day

561
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:51,400
Speaker 1: he shows up at the DMV wearing a latex mask

562
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: that the Vanity Fair article Uh, Michael Gross, I think

563
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 1: very generously refers to it as a like Mission Impossible

564
00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,279
Speaker 1: style latex mask. But you look at the photos and

565
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: it is a it's very scary to look at. It's

566
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 1: a Mike Myers Halloween mask. Apparently it costs like six

567
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: dollars um or I suppose the equivalent, And I'm like,

568
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:16,279
Speaker 1: I don't know who you know who sold him that mask,

569
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,400
Speaker 1: but it did not look worth almost two thousand dollars

570
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: to me. And he said it was professionally like glued on,

571
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,439
Speaker 1: and you you look at it and you're like, that

572
00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,879
Speaker 1: does not look professionally glued on. That con the fact

573
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 1: that he looked in the mirror and it's like, yep,

574
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: people fall for this is just shows how out of

575
00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,359
Speaker 1: touch he has been with the rest of the world. Yeah,

576
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: I guess so. Yeah. The the Vanity Fair uncle, I think,

577
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 1: also has a security still of GM. He went to

578
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 1: the DMV to try to take a driving test, and

579
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: this mask was supposed to disguise him as the ever

580
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: elusive shot gun salez Um. He looks ridiculous. He shows

581
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,120
Speaker 1: up with this mask on to disguise himself, but they

582
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: call the police because they're like, this is were the

583
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: guy just showed up in a Halloween mask and is

584
00:38:06,960 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 1: insisting it's his face. But he says his name is

585
00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 1: Jacques Gonzalez, which to me, this isn't really explored, but

586
00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 1: I think, I my gut was like, I think he

587
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 1: was trying to pull like a Shawshank redemption, you know

588
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: how in Shawshank Redemption if you've seen it, at the end,

589
00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 1: Andy Duffrayne uses the fake name and has all the

590
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: fake identification to claim all the money that he stowed away.

591
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: I feel like he was at gum, was at the

592
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: DMV to try to get like a fake driver's license

593
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: for Jacque Gonzales as himself that he could claim I

594
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: don't know, some money, whatever money had been funneled his way,

595
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 1: like a sort of backwards con I believe that. Yeah.

596
00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 1: I found it very strange that Christine did not mention

597
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 1: this bizarre episode, I don't think at all in her memoir,

598
00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 1: which makes me think maybe it's not as flattering of

599
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: a motive as we would like to believe, or at

600
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: least that was my first instinct, but I don't know absolutely.

601
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: I I did sort of sense that the the Vanity

602
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,719
Speaker 1: Fair article interviews a bunch of other, you know, auxiliary

603
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,160
Speaker 1: people to the story, people who were affected by like

604
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: you know, teachers at the secretarial school and friends who

605
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,360
Speaker 1: the people who were still owed a lot of money

606
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: by this family that was con and they do say like, Okay,

607
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,359
Speaker 1: well share this con that's convenient, but like they were

608
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 1: in on it to some degree and they owe us

609
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: a lot of money. Although you know, you do say, like,

610
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,440
Speaker 1: if this family was in it for money, they do

611
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:43,640
Speaker 1: not end up with money. They lose everything million euros,

612
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 1: five million euros, they lose their chateau. But you do

613
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 1: wonder what Giam is playing at with this whole charade,

614
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,400
Speaker 1: because it's bizarre showing up in a Mission Impossible style mask,

615
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: trying to get a driver's license under a fake name,

616
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 1: and spending on it money that is, as you pointed

617
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: out in in some note, we don't know where he

618
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,399
Speaker 1: got that money, because it seems like for the most

619
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: part the family was giving it directly to Tilly, so

620
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: it was maybe Tilly was also in on this, or

621
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: he sort of had maybe siphoned things away from it.

622
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 1: There's a lot of money that's, as far as I know,

623
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 1: still unaccounted for, and some of it actually seems to

624
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,120
Speaker 1: tie back to Kim, which I find also a little

625
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: bit suspicious interesting because he was the intermediary. I believe

626
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 1: it's the right word in the sale of Martel that

627
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, took the rug out from everybody else. I

628
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: don't wish to spin conspiracies conspiracies on conspiracies, but um,

629
00:40:46,840 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: I think Christine's memoir does. I read that before I

630
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,839
Speaker 1: read the Fan of Divanity Fair article, and I don't

631
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 1: think that her memoir really dives into role as much

632
00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,120
Speaker 1: as I mean. I mean, I would don't fault her

633
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,239
Speaker 1: at all. That's her son, but yeah, there's a lot

634
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: left unsaid. I think. I think that's that's the reason

635
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 1: why I felt like I couldn't make this a normal

636
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: noble blood episode. One because it's it's weirdly complicated, but

637
00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: also because there is that sort of pat narrative that

638
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: that Christine tells that I think is fascinating and makes sense,

639
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: where it's this noble family they fall into this uh

640
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:27,960
Speaker 1: conman's grasp and then they get out and and that

641
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 1: does paint them as the victims entirely. When you read

642
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 1: the Vanity Fair story, which is more nuanced and more complicated,

643
00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 1: and you're like, okay, well, y'am was doing something. He

644
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:45,280
Speaker 1: sort of became Tilly's right hand man. Something was happening

645
00:41:45,719 --> 00:41:49,839
Speaker 1: with him and with this shady jaque Gonzalez figure who

646
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 1: turns out to be a real person. Yeah, I was surprised,

647
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: me too. I thought he was just Tilly in a

648
00:41:57,280 --> 00:42:00,759
Speaker 1: in a mustache, a fake mustache and a hat. But no,

649
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: he's a real guy. I loved the story about them,

650
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 1: the journalist who wrote the Vanny vertical showing up and

651
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: the guy pretends to have no idea what's going on.

652
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:12,879
Speaker 1: He's like, oh, maybe I went to the wrong shock,

653
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 1: gen Salas, and then six months later he's arrested. Maybe

654
00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 1: he did go to the wrong shock Gnsalaz And that's

655
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 1: just a patsy. And that's just a patsy. Oh my god,

656
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: that that another Jack Gonzalez has been has been framed

657
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 1: in a double conspiracy. Yeah, but I think this is

658
00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:32,880
Speaker 1: a good segue to talk about the rescue an endgame,

659
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:35,720
Speaker 1: and I think the m v P of the story baron,

660
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I was like, I love you the

661
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 1: noble man, the noble that this story deserves. I also

662
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 1: feel like I've been to his um. I studied a

663
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 1: brought in Oxford one summer, and I think I've been

664
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: to his cheese cart, oh my god, in the cover Market.

665
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:58,920
Speaker 1: I obviously never met him, but had the cheese. Okay,

666
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:02,640
Speaker 1: so for contact. The entire family is working these menial

667
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:07,760
Speaker 1: jobs and Christine, the the wife of of Charles Henri

668
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,919
Speaker 1: again is working in the back kitchen of this cheese

669
00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: shop in Oxford's Covered Market run by a man named

670
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: Baron Bobby. And that's just his nickname. His family had

671
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:23,399
Speaker 1: been bestowed a baroncy by Napoleon, so it's not He's

672
00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:27,560
Speaker 1: not old aristocracy. And again the title doesn't mean much

673
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: to him. And I think it's it's very interesting and

674
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 1: charming to frame these two characters as ones who both

675
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 1: have French titles. And you know, Baron Bobby mentions that

676
00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: that they love speaking French to each other. But I

677
00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:44,720
Speaker 1: feel like he sort of takes it with a good nature.

678
00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: He doesn't take it very seriously, and the the Dividrine

679
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:53,080
Speaker 1: family maybe took it too seriously in a way that

680
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: made them vulnerable. But basically Christine sort of slowly over

681
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: her friendship with Bob, working there, speaking French, hanging out,

682
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,880
Speaker 1: starts revealing drips of her home life at this point

683
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: in the story, and the way that her family had

684
00:44:11,280 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: succumbed to Tilly and the way they had, you know,

685
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: tortured her for two weeks while she couldn't remember the

686
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 1: bank account info. And she was saying how apologetic she

687
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 1: was for not knowing the bank info, and Bobby is

688
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 1: the one who was like, what are you talking about?

689
00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 1: That's insane, and she's like, no, Terry's incredibly powerful and connected,

690
00:44:31,160 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 1: and I think Bobby at this point is like, no,

691
00:44:33,400 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: he's just a little creep. Yeah, I love that. What

692
00:44:37,320 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: a good man, What a good man. And he's the

693
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: one who facilitates Christine getting in touch with some of

694
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:50,840
Speaker 1: her old friends in France, eventually escaping, returning to France

695
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: and reporting to the French government everything that's been happening

696
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: with Tilly, and then a warrant is put out for

697
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: his Yes, but he does manage to avoid it for

698
00:45:03,000 --> 00:45:07,279
Speaker 1: a little while, um because he believe Oxford. Yeah, and

699
00:45:07,600 --> 00:45:12,080
Speaker 1: the English government is less than helpful, yes, which maybe

700
00:45:12,120 --> 00:45:15,800
Speaker 1: isn't surprising. I don't know, he makes the terrible decision

701
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 1: of taking a trip to Zurich. Yeah, that just seems

702
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: stupid to me. Yeah, if you're, if you're about to,

703
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: if you're engaging in a vast international conspiracy, you want

704
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 1: to restrict your travel from countries that have extradition treaties exactly.

705
00:45:31,680 --> 00:45:34,719
Speaker 1: I don't know. After all that was, I mean I

706
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: was glad he got arrested, obviously, but after almost nine

707
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,280
Speaker 1: years now, almost a decade of you know, everything's planned

708
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 1: to at tie, everything so perfect, he has it all

709
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,759
Speaker 1: figured out. He goes on a trip. Yeah, he just

710
00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: goes on a little vacation because he wants to get

711
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: away from this family for a bit. I guess, I

712
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 1: don't know. It seems seems like a dumb move to me.

713
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 1: But it also seemed like his entire thing was by

714
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: the seat of his pants. I mean, this isn't that's

715
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 1: true because for a conspiracy, it's only focused on one

716
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: rich family. Yeah, and not even a big time like

717
00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:15,400
Speaker 1: it's not like they're the Bourbons or anything. No, I

718
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: believe that. I mean, look, five million dollars, five million

719
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,719
Speaker 1: euros is nothing to shake your fifth dad I wish

720
00:46:22,719 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: I had five million euros, but it for ten years

721
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: and this massive conspiracy. You're like, what is his end

722
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: game here? I guess he just wanted to control control

723
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: over people. Yeah, because eventually he just milked them for

724
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: all they were worth and was just continuing to be

725
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:44,959
Speaker 1: mean to them. And the whole matter with the transmission.

726
00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,960
Speaker 1: I was also very confused because he has to know

727
00:46:48,040 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: it's not real, Like did he think that he could

728
00:46:50,560 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: get her to guess a magic number that would unlock

729
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,160
Speaker 1: someone else's bank account? And as you alluded to, there's

730
00:46:57,160 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: a period where she and her son actually go to

731
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: Brussels and go bank to bank on foot, just every

732
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 1: bank in Brussels. I wonder if he knows it's not

733
00:47:09,000 --> 00:47:12,040
Speaker 1: going to work, but wants that like anxiety and that

734
00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:16,600
Speaker 1: torture for the family. Maybe yeah, I mean after every bank,

735
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,640
Speaker 1: when it was inevitably not the bank, he would call

736
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:26,200
Speaker 1: Christine and just you know, verbally assault her. Um. So

737
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:30,920
Speaker 1: maybe it was just for the sake of being terrible,

738
00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: But he did so many things for his own gain,

739
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:36,839
Speaker 1: and I'm just not sure what this would have done

740
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,040
Speaker 1: for him other than a sense of power. I think

741
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 1: you're right because you're at a at a cent. As

742
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 1: soon as they sell the house, they really have no

743
00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 1: material properties left. And at this point it's just like

744
00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 1: a small collection of basically slaves working for him that

745
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 1: he has complete control over, and I imagine to some

746
00:47:57,800 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 1: sort of monstrous person that's intoxicating. I guess, So I

747
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,200
Speaker 1: guess that's what he's the con man and we're not,

748
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 1: and we are absolutely not. So he gets arrested. But

749
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:14,799
Speaker 1: what it basically happens next iss ex husband, the one

750
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 1: that she threw the dried flowers and gardening glove at

751
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 1: Sean marchand is still like sad and upset about how,

752
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,399
Speaker 1: you know, nine years earlier his wife had to come

753
00:48:25,440 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 1: to what he believes to be a brainwashing by a

754
00:48:28,280 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 1: cal man. And he tells authorities that, like, he's worried

755
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 1: that the family, which even after Terry's arrest, remained in Oxford,

756
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:40,640
Speaker 1: living at these places and just like going about their lives.

757
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: He was worried that it was going to be like Jonestown,

758
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 1: that they would might you know, kill themselves for Terry.

759
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:52,160
Speaker 1: And so he or helps orchestrate with Christine, who's back

760
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: in France at this point, what Michael Gross and Vanity

761
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: Fair calls an Ocean's eleven style extraction. Yes, and it

762
00:49:00,080 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 1: really it feels accurate. Well, we have a team. They

763
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 1: had the like code name and everything. They have like

764
00:49:06,960 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 1: a cryptologist, they cult de breaker. You know how in

765
00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 1: in Oceans eleven you need like one expert and everything.

766
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:15,759
Speaker 1: That is what I felt like they had. They're like,

767
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 1: we have the cult expert and the deprogramming expert and

768
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,560
Speaker 1: the transportation guy. Yeah, you gotta have someone to do everything.

769
00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: John almost ruined it though, Yeah, do you want to

770
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 1: talk about that? Yes? I do because I have a

771
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 1: lot of love for Jean because I find it very

772
00:49:32,560 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 1: admirable that he was so instrumental in getting this this

773
00:49:37,200 --> 00:49:44,600
Speaker 1: big lawyer, Daniel Picot. Picotin maybe is the pronuntiation um

774
00:49:44,600 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: getting this man involved in in this case. Um. I

775
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 1: think in two thousand four was the first time they

776
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 1: made contact. Um, so I admired him. But the first

777
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: time that they tried to go to go back to

778
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,160
Speaker 1: Oxford and we're at this point. I believe all of

779
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: the rest of the ved Dream were there, including Gilla

780
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:11,640
Speaker 1: and the now nine be something elder Giamet, and they

781
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:18,280
Speaker 1: were successful in exit counseling and exceltrating Guillaume, I believe,

782
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,760
Speaker 1: but Jehan almost ruined it because he tried to confront

783
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: his wife alone, which basically tipped everyone off and they

784
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 1: closed ranks, which I feel for him, and I can

785
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: completely understand not seeing your wife for that long after this,

786
00:50:34,719 --> 00:50:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, really bonkers traumatic separation. But in her memoir,

787
00:50:40,239 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 1: Christine was like that Dingdong almost ruined the whole operation.

788
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 1: They had to go and go back to France and

789
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: wait a little while. And then because of course this

790
00:50:49,719 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: whole outburst with Quiller tipped off the tabloids and you know,

791
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,920
Speaker 1: the English tabloids, they really jumped all over it, which

792
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:02,839
Speaker 1: again just kind of closed everything off. So they had

793
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: to wait several more months, they believe, before they could

794
00:51:05,880 --> 00:51:08,360
Speaker 1: go and get the rest of the family out. What

795
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:11,400
Speaker 1: does emerge for me is a very clear picture of

796
00:51:11,440 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 1: how challenging it is and how you do need experts

797
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 1: for a situation where people have been brainwashed. I mean, yeah,

798
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: confronting someone in person and then allowing them to close

799
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:29,360
Speaker 1: ranks is sort of the the end result. You need experts.

800
00:51:29,480 --> 00:51:34,240
Speaker 1: You need this to be carefully orchestrated to bring people

801
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: back into the world. Yeah, and Christine talks about and

802
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 1: I didn't know this, the difference between deep programming and

803
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: exit counseling, and how they were trying to exfiltrate this

804
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:49,240
Speaker 1: the rest of their family with as little trauma as possible,

805
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: because classic American deep programming apparently is very similar to

806
00:51:55,960 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: being kidnapped, um, which I could imagine is not helpful. Yeah,

807
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 1: it would be I guess, re traumatizing. Yeah, so apparently

808
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,120
Speaker 1: this is even more of a careful process than that,

809
00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 1: where it's yeah, you really need like I believe they

810
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 1: had a psychiatrist or psychologists who you know, you need

811
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 1: someone who can pick apart what has become this family's

812
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 1: reality for almost a decade without re traumatizing them and

813
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: in a likelihood, you know, pushing them further towards h tilly. Yeah,

814
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: this expiltration mission, which as you mentioned, they had two

815
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:40,360
Speaker 1: of for reasons that were necessary, included a psychoanalyst, a criminologist,

816
00:52:40,640 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 1: and then a transportation guy. So like, they're professionals involved

817
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: in this, and it is a hefty organization and it

818
00:52:48,800 --> 00:52:51,880
Speaker 1: takes a process the same way you're like, Okay, I

819
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,399
Speaker 1: don't know if this is you know, because people were

820
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 1: involved in the fais work to some degree or just

821
00:52:57,120 --> 00:53:02,080
Speaker 1: because it was their brainwashing. It takes a while for

822
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:04,560
Speaker 1: the entire family to come around, but by the end

823
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: they all come out against Tilly and to testify against him.

824
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:12,799
Speaker 1: They don't testify, but I mean come out publicly against him. Yeah,

825
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:15,239
Speaker 1: I think they do. They join the case, but I'm

826
00:53:15,239 --> 00:53:18,040
Speaker 1: not sure how much they're supposed to testify. Yes, I don't.

827
00:53:18,080 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: I just didn't know. I didn't want to say they

828
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:22,799
Speaker 1: all testified because I'm not. I don't think they all did.

829
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:25,279
Speaker 1: Maybe they did, yeah, I think only I'm not sure.

830
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: But yeah, So eventually, at a certain point they all

831
00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: come out against Tilly, who goes to jail for fraud,

832
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 1: imprisonment accompanied by acts of barbarism and torture, extortion of funds,

833
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 1: and abuse of weakness. Yeah, I'm intrigued by that part.

834
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:47,919
Speaker 1: I would imagine it's a kind of clunky translation. Yeah,

835
00:53:48,000 --> 00:53:51,799
Speaker 1: but abusive weakness seems like a strange way of putting it.

836
00:53:51,920 --> 00:53:55,600
Speaker 1: I guess vulnerability sounds better to me, but yeah, vulnerability

837
00:53:55,760 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 1: makes it seem less um subjective. Yeah, there's some Yeah,

838
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:05,319
Speaker 1: there's there's a weird bit of language there. But Tilly,

839
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:09,560
Speaker 1: I think is still being held in Bordeaux, declined legal

840
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 1: counsel and has given no interviews and ferociously denies all charges.

841
00:54:14,920 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 1: I mean, I suppose that's what I would do, but

842
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 1: there's really nothing I think at that point that I'm

843
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: trying to think of the the idiom that the coup

844
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: has flown, that the chicken has been cooked. Yeah, the

845
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 1: cats out of the bag. Some the cats out of

846
00:54:28,120 --> 00:54:33,360
Speaker 1: the bag, but the with these two ex filtration missions.

847
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 1: After his arrest, the family was still in Oxford for

848
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 1: I believe seven months, I think, so it was a

849
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 1: long process. Yeah, which I can't imagine being uh, disillusioned

850
00:54:48,680 --> 00:54:51,280
Speaker 1: of this you know, awful reality that I've been forced

851
00:54:51,280 --> 00:54:54,160
Speaker 1: into and then just kind of hanging out for a while.

852
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:59,600
Speaker 1: That seems very difficult. I think you imagine that, you I.

853
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 1: I don't think they were probably entirely convinced that it

854
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,560
Speaker 1: was you know, a con at that point. I think

855
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,360
Speaker 1: they want to believe that, you know, the last decade

856
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:11,879
Speaker 1: of their life it had meaning. And I'm sure when

857
00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: Tilly was first arrested that they were like, oh, that

858
00:55:16,040 --> 00:55:18,279
Speaker 1: the evil powers of the world have gotten to him.

859
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,760
Speaker 1: You know, the Freemasons have called in their favors and

860
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 1: and had him arrested. You know, I I think that

861
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: the challenge here for me is realizing that it's not

862
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 1: like a Disney movie where when the villain is captured

863
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 1: are killed, that the kingdom just magically, you know, a

864
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:39,640
Speaker 1: wave of color rushes over the kingdom and everything is

865
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 1: reverted back to normal. Yeah. I'm sure for those seven

866
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 1: months it was incredibly confusing and painful. You know that

867
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: old saying it's easier to to con someone than convinced

868
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:51,239
Speaker 1: something they have been conned. I've never heard that, but

869
00:55:51,320 --> 00:55:54,439
Speaker 1: that seems to apply here. Yeah, where it's like I

870
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,200
Speaker 1: I imagine that for a while, you want to believe

871
00:55:57,280 --> 00:56:00,880
Speaker 1: that the secret order of the world you had devoted

872
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:05,879
Speaker 1: yourself to with such a fervent, painful commitment was real

873
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 1: for for a while longer. Yeah, I believe Gillan actually

874
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 1: believed when um Tillie was first arrested, that he he

875
00:56:14,800 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: told her or she believed of her own volition, that

876
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:21,560
Speaker 1: he had gotten himself arrested on purpose for some reason,

877
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:26,719
Speaker 1: to serve the ends of protecting the family from you know,

878
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:30,839
Speaker 1: this existential threat which I can imagine them all, you know,

879
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:33,799
Speaker 1: sort of waiting with bated breath even as they were

880
00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,879
Speaker 1: being exit counseled to try to discover what was real

881
00:56:37,920 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 1: and what wasn't and of course, very cynically him telling

882
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:44,960
Speaker 1: them that this was all part of his plan would

883
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 1: keep them from, you know, testifying against him. Absolutely, So

884
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: that is sort of how the story ends, in the

885
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: sense that Tilly is found guilty, although there is a

886
00:56:57,400 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: very funny scene in Christine's memoir that I wanted to

887
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:03,600
Speaker 1: thank you for highlighting with the judge. Do you want

888
00:57:03,640 --> 00:57:07,880
Speaker 1: to describe that. Yes, he tried to brainwash the judge,

889
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 1: I think is what he was trying to do. He

890
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:14,439
Speaker 1: starts telling his life story, and you know, the story

891
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:18,360
Speaker 1: is constantly changing, and he's using essentially the same tactics

892
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:21,040
Speaker 1: that he had used with the family, where you know,

893
00:57:21,280 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 1: he says, he says that he can't talk about its work,

894
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,120
Speaker 1: his work because it's top secret and you know, I

895
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 1: can't say anything more. And he's saying this to the

896
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 1: literal judge um, who at some point, I believe, in

897
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: perhaps nicer words, tells him to shut up. And again,

898
00:57:39,160 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 1: as we mentioned before, he declined all legal counsels, so

899
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: he's his own lawyer at this point. Yeah, and he

900
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: keeps interrupting and just generally causing trouble, telling all these

901
00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,240
Speaker 1: crazy lies he was in the navy, and then oh

902
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,560
Speaker 1: I wasn't you know, quite in the navy, but I

903
00:57:54,600 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: was pretty much in the navy. And then I believe

904
00:57:57,120 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: his father takes the stand and is like, this is

905
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,880
Speaker 1: a load of crap, this is all false. Yeah, which

906
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: I find a little bit of cosmic justice, just to

907
00:58:06,680 --> 00:58:08,840
Speaker 1: you know, have someone come up and be like, this

908
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: is absolutely false. In Gross's article, he mentioned that Tilly

909
00:58:13,240 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: was married to this beautiful blonde woman who I could

910
00:58:17,040 --> 00:58:20,360
Speaker 1: find no evidence of on the internet. Yeah, is this Jessica?

911
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,920
Speaker 1: Or is this there's another woman I think in his past,

912
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:26,920
Speaker 1: or maybe I have saw Jessica. Yeah, I know nothing

913
00:58:27,120 --> 00:58:31,760
Speaker 1: of her. Christine describes her as, you know, vaguely, very nice,

914
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,560
Speaker 1: but there's no sense of how much she knew. Yeah,

915
00:58:35,680 --> 00:58:38,000
Speaker 1: she's almost not in this story at all at all,

916
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,680
Speaker 1: which which is weird that it's like this is his

917
00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 1: second family. Maybe maybe it was hard to just understand

918
00:58:46,280 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 1: how much, yeah, she knew about what was going on,

919
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,720
Speaker 1: to what degree Tillie was involved with his normal family. Yeah,

920
00:58:53,880 --> 00:58:56,920
Speaker 1: I have no idea. I would love to know, because

921
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: she was sort of the appointed babysit her for um

922
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:06,280
Speaker 1: Christine at one point and the kids. Yeah, so she

923
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:09,240
Speaker 1: had to have known something, or maybe she just believed

924
00:59:09,240 --> 00:59:14,280
Speaker 1: that her husband was really a high up, you know,

925
00:59:14,680 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: person in the world of espionage, and that she just

926
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: had to trust that he was saving the world and

927
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:23,560
Speaker 1: he couldn't tell her anything. I feel like that's a

928
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,560
Speaker 1: very easy cop out, is like, sorry, I M a spy,

929
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 1: I can't tell you. Yeah, it seems like he is

930
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: a very convincing person if you're susceptible to him. And

931
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,640
Speaker 1: I guess to me, it's plausible where he's like, you know,

932
00:59:36,720 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 1: these people are in like whatever the equivalent of witness

933
00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 1: protection is, I guess. So. I mean, maybe Jessica didn't know,

934
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 1: but I would imagine that in England or France it

935
00:59:46,720 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: would function similarly to the way in the US where

936
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: they are the way on US television, uh is, which

937
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,200
Speaker 1: is my frame of references that you know, you start

938
00:59:57,200 --> 01:00:00,439
Speaker 1: a new life but not really move in with your

939
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 1: uh secret agent secret agent guy. But again, she didn't

940
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: seem to get in trouble. I found no real evidence

941
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,400
Speaker 1: of what happened to her, or it didn't seem like

942
01:00:11,440 --> 01:00:14,840
Speaker 1: she got in legal trouble. Yeah, I mean, maybe she

943
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 1: just didn't know anything, or maybe she's like an even

944
01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:22,040
Speaker 1: deeper agent than her husband was. Maybe she's Jack Man Salez.

945
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,760
Speaker 1: She was Jack Gonzalez all along. But that basically is

946
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:30,840
Speaker 1: the end of the story. Tilly is sentenced to eight years,

947
01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: it's bumped up to ten, which means he is still

948
01:00:34,080 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 1: in prison and will probably get out, uh in I

949
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 1: think based on my matho. Okay, so we have two

950
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:45,480
Speaker 1: years before he listens to this podcast and comes for

951
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:51,040
Speaker 1: us and and the family. They live in basically council

952
01:00:51,160 --> 01:00:54,800
Speaker 1: estates in Bordeaux, like government housing in Bordeaux. They've tried

953
01:00:54,840 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: to go back to their jobs, so it does sound

954
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: like Charles Unry is back to being a doctor and

955
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:02,960
Speaker 1: they're they're trying to to work again. But they lost

956
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 1: all of their money, all of their possessions, their family estate.

957
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 1: I was very sad to read that Christine had lost

958
01:01:11,640 --> 01:01:15,960
Speaker 1: like cards from her parents and letters to and from

959
01:01:15,960 --> 01:01:18,840
Speaker 1: her children that she has no idea where until he

960
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:23,040
Speaker 1: took them, and that was very sad. Everything, all of

961
01:01:23,040 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: their possessions, all of their family heirlooms. But does sound

962
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 1: like Ghazag got back together with her ex husband, John Marshan,

963
01:01:30,440 --> 01:01:34,040
Speaker 1: which is a slightly happier ending. Yeah, I'm glad that

964
01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:37,480
Speaker 1: everyone like ended up okay, except for that poor pianist.

965
01:01:37,640 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: I think is maybe he just escaped and maybe that's

966
01:01:41,040 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 1: for the best, you know, he ended up better and

967
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:46,160
Speaker 1: that he didn't have to be a part of this. Yeah,

968
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 1: but I think did get married to a nice young

969
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,280
Speaker 1: Italian man, which, you know, what more can you hope for?

970
01:01:52,640 --> 01:01:55,240
Speaker 1: I feel like in the in the movie version of this,

971
01:01:55,760 --> 01:01:58,160
Speaker 1: it's the pianist who saved the day, because that's a

972
01:01:58,160 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 1: little sexture than the pianist turns out to be Baron Bobby. Yeah,

973
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:04,360
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, I feel like that

974
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 1: the Jean Marshand character, the sexy pianist who his bride

975
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 1: has been brainwashed three months after their wedding, is like

976
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:17,000
Speaker 1: a sexy rescuer. Then Jean Marschan the sixty year old divorcee.

977
01:02:17,760 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: I yes, I mean, you know, Sean Marshan has his charms. Yes,

978
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,280
Speaker 1: I had not to dispare Jean marchand yes, but I yes,

979
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 1: I would love to see this movie. So again, I

980
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 1: think it's probably something that's going to have to wait

981
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 1: until like a hundred years from now when all the

982
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 1: secrets can be unburied in archives and things like that. Yeah,

983
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:39,600
Speaker 1: because that's the thing when I'm when I'm doing an

984
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: episode of Noble Blood and you're obviously so helpful with

985
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 1: the research, you have to read everything and digest it

986
01:02:47,320 --> 01:02:49,320
Speaker 1: and then wait for it to sort of make sense,

987
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: wait for a cohesive narrative to come together. And I

988
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 1: think there is a patent narrative where this family, you know,

989
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: fell into a cult. Tillie is the villain and he

990
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 1: was caught it. It does there are details that just

991
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 1: don't make sense, like the mask, like what did the

992
01:03:06,440 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: mask about? What is the mask about? What? Who knows what?

993
01:03:11,000 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 1: They're family meetings that they take elaborate notes for that

994
01:03:16,080 --> 01:03:19,120
Speaker 1: just very strange French noble to me, I feel like,

995
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:21,680
Speaker 1: I don't know, there are a lot of things that

996
01:03:21,800 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 1: I I can't relate to in my normal, not aristocratic

997
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 1: person life. Like Christine talks a little about Charlesonri and

998
01:03:33,240 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 1: his his Protestant drive to you know, defend himself or

999
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:42,800
Speaker 1: to like a like some sort of martyr complex, and

1000
01:03:42,960 --> 01:03:46,439
Speaker 1: maybe that's a French thing, like calling back to all

1001
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:50,280
Speaker 1: of the religious conflict in you know what the sixteenth

1002
01:03:50,280 --> 01:03:54,360
Speaker 1: century onward. Listen to my episode of Noble Blood. The

1003
01:03:54,360 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 1: wedding ended in blood exactly. But that's not just not

1004
01:03:58,480 --> 01:04:02,880
Speaker 1: something that I have ever experienced. I mean, I'm not Protestant,

1005
01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 1: I'm not Christian at all, so maybe maybe everyone feels

1006
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 1: this way. But there, yeah, just a lot of like

1007
01:04:09,680 --> 01:04:13,560
Speaker 1: strange habits and even one of the reasons I think

1008
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:17,200
Speaker 1: that Baron Bobby noticed something was off with Christine is

1009
01:04:17,240 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 1: that she was acting noble somehow, she had like the

1010
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 1: mannerisms of an aristocratic person, which I would love to

1011
01:04:25,120 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: know what those are. Yeah, what a good detail, the

1012
01:04:28,600 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: sense that what both what caused this family to be

1013
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:36,760
Speaker 1: imprisoned and what made them susceptible to tell his brainwashing

1014
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:40,840
Speaker 1: is the very thing that sort of allows Baron Bobby

1015
01:04:40,920 --> 01:04:43,280
Speaker 1: to see that something is wrong. I think it's because

1016
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:48,360
Speaker 1: Christine mentioned, like, you know, she is well educated, and

1017
01:04:48,400 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 1: I think her French is excellent and her English is

1018
01:04:50,760 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 1: probably wonderful, and she is educated and has mannerisms in

1019
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,320
Speaker 1: the sense that he's like, well, why are you working

1020
01:04:58,320 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 1: in the back of a cheese shop like you you

1021
01:05:01,160 --> 01:05:03,600
Speaker 1: act as though you have money, And then that's how

1022
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:06,840
Speaker 1: the story sort of reveals itself to to him, where

1023
01:05:06,880 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: she says like, Okay, yes we had money, but but

1024
01:05:09,320 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 1: we lost it for these reasons. Yeah, but the I

1025
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:15,640
Speaker 1: don't know, I would love to Maybe it's the equivalent

1026
01:05:15,680 --> 01:05:19,919
Speaker 1: of like a very posh English accent. That's a thing

1027
01:05:19,960 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 1: where you can sort of tell, yeah, good posture. Maybe

1028
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 1: I feel like I have a good posture. Well maybe

1029
01:05:26,600 --> 01:05:30,280
Speaker 1: maybe you look rich. Yeah maybe. Uh. There was also

1030
01:05:31,280 --> 01:05:33,960
Speaker 1: maybe an apocryphal story that I sort of half remember,

1031
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 1: but I remember someone It could even be like a

1032
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 1: dumb joke. So I feel like I'm couching this um.

1033
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: Someone would ask, like a historian or an artist or

1034
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 1: a novelist or someone like, oh, was the French Revolution

1035
01:05:46,080 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 1: good or bad in the scheme of history? And the

1036
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 1: person answers like, oh, well, it's far too soon to tell,

1037
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:56,720
Speaker 1: in the sense that you need so much historical perspective

1038
01:05:57,000 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: before you can be able to look at a picture clearly.

1039
01:06:00,880 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: And I think that the nature of this case me

1040
01:06:05,000 --> 01:06:07,600
Speaker 1: meant to me that Christine and the rest of the

1041
01:06:07,640 --> 01:06:13,400
Speaker 1: family did want to simplify it and paint Tilly as

1042
01:06:13,560 --> 01:06:17,720
Speaker 1: the perpetrator and their family is the victims. And I

1043
01:06:17,760 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: think that that effort to oversimplify for the sake of

1044
01:06:21,720 --> 01:06:28,360
Speaker 1: legal expediency clouds some complexity that I couldn't quite figure out. Yeah,

1045
01:06:28,480 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 1: I think one of the big questions that I was

1046
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 1: left with with particularly the Vanity Fair article where it

1047
01:06:35,080 --> 01:06:39,160
Speaker 1: was quoting, um, the teacher from the secretarial school and

1048
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:44,120
Speaker 1: I believe one of the landlords that Tilly uh and

1049
01:06:44,240 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 1: the family kind of possibly duped at some point in Oxford.

1050
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:54,000
Speaker 1: Sorry quick aside, they I guess as punishment for some degree.

1051
01:06:54,400 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 1: They basically trashed an apartment in Oxford and then sued

1052
01:07:00,080 --> 01:07:03,800
Speaker 1: the landlord. Like they put their landlords through legal hell.

1053
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: It was like nineteen lawsuits or something absolutely crazy. Um

1054
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:12,680
Speaker 1: and he you know this, this landlord and the one

1055
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:16,640
Speaker 1: of the teacher who was quoted are sort of like, Okay, well,

1056
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: what a convenient excuse that they were brainwashed? Um. And

1057
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 1: I think the question is, as time goes on, is

1058
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: going to be Okay, to what extent should this family

1059
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:30,200
Speaker 1: be held accountable for the harm that they've caused to

1060
01:07:30,200 --> 01:07:33,960
Speaker 1: other people. I mean there's you know, Charlesonry's partners in

1061
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 1: his gynecological practice and friends and business partners left behind,

1062
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:45,200
Speaker 1: landlords duped people sued. Um. I think there are a

1063
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 1: lot of things. All those teachers and paid Yeah, I

1064
01:07:50,040 --> 01:07:53,600
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, it's not that I don't believe

1065
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: that this story is true, that these you know, this

1066
01:07:56,400 --> 01:08:03,240
Speaker 1: family was brainwashed. It's obviously, you know, pretty verifiably true. Um.

1067
01:08:03,320 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 1: But I think Christine, especially in her memoir, I think,

1068
01:08:06,920 --> 01:08:10,800
Speaker 1: is very willing to I don't not forgive herself because

1069
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 1: I think she has a decent sense of you know,

1070
01:08:14,040 --> 01:08:17,120
Speaker 1: the harm that she caused other she and her family

1071
01:08:17,160 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 1: may have caused other people. But I think everyone's very

1072
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:23,360
Speaker 1: quick to be like, well, we were brainwashed, we were

1073
01:08:23,479 --> 01:08:26,599
Speaker 1: under this guy's thumb. Yeah, he's the he's the villain.

1074
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,679
Speaker 1: We were under this guy's spell. Which I mean again,

1075
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 1: it's not as if the the Dren family gets off

1076
01:08:34,520 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 1: scott free, because as we said, yeah, they lose absolutely

1077
01:08:38,000 --> 01:08:40,760
Speaker 1: everything in the world, and I think they lose ten

1078
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 1: years of their life. So maybe that's maybe punishment enough. Yeah,

1079
01:08:45,479 --> 01:08:47,760
Speaker 1: you know, they lost their family, they lost all of

1080
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 1: their money, and they've they lost a decade to this

1081
01:08:51,360 --> 01:08:56,680
Speaker 1: crazy conspiracy. So whatever the damage. I mean that that

1082
01:08:56,760 --> 01:08:59,920
Speaker 1: seems to be a pretty good sentence to me. Yeah,

1083
01:09:00,120 --> 01:09:04,400
Speaker 1: I think so it's a it's an incredibly strange story.

1084
01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,880
Speaker 1: Thank you for attempting to delve into it with me.

1085
01:09:08,320 --> 01:09:10,559
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. This was very fun, and

1086
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,920
Speaker 1: thank you for listening. I hope that this slightly different

1087
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 1: episode of Nomah Blood gives you a glimpse into our process.

1088
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:22,200
Speaker 1: And uh, I guess just illuminates a story that to me,

1089
01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 1: I was very surprised that almost no Americans know or

1090
01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:29,599
Speaker 1: care about. Because it's so bizarre and so weird, you'd

1091
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:32,200
Speaker 1: think more would be written about it. I was totally

1092
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:36,719
Speaker 1: expecting tons of stuff. Yeah, everything's in French. Maybe now

1093
01:09:36,880 --> 01:09:41,600
Speaker 1: someone will, you know, hop on the scholarly work. We

1094
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: are approaching a decade, I think since this story you know,

1095
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:50,960
Speaker 1: officially closed, so maybe some like modern French historians will

1096
01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:55,000
Speaker 1: get to work. We can only hope. Well, Hannah, thank

1097
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. Where can people find

1098
01:09:57,479 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 1: you on on social media or the internet? Oh my goodness, Um,

1099
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 1: I am on Twitter at nourrel hand n O R

1100
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:08,920
Speaker 1: E L L E hey h A n and on

1101
01:10:09,000 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 1: Instagram at that but with N A H at the

1102
01:10:11,520 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 1: end just spell Hannah. Fantastic. Well, thank you so much

1103
01:10:15,080 --> 01:10:25,120
Speaker 1: for joining me, and thanks for listening. Noble Blood is

1104
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:27,679
Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio and Grimm and Mild

1105
01:10:27,760 --> 01:10:30,640
Speaker 1: from Aaron Mankey. The show was written and hosted by

1106
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:35,400
Speaker 1: Dani Schwartz and produced by Aaron Mankey, Matt Frederick, Alex Williams,

1107
01:10:35,479 --> 01:10:38,880
Speaker 1: and Trevor Young. Noble Blood is on social media at

1108
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 1: Noble Blood Tales, and you can learn more about the

1109
01:10:41,400 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 1: show over at Noble blood Tales dot com. For more

1110
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:47,599
Speaker 1: podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

1111
01:10:47,760 --> 01:11:29,640
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.