1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,119 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Welcome back 5 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: to the show. My name is Matt. Noel is not here, 6 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,080 Speaker 1: but we'll be returning soon. They call me Ben. We 7 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: are joined as always with our super producer Paul mission 8 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: controled decade. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, 9 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: and that makes this stuff they don't want you to 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,159 Speaker 1: know this. We've been doing this check in at the 11 00:00:43,200 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: beginning of the show. We hope that you check in 12 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,240 Speaker 1: as well when you before you dive into the strange, bizarre, 13 00:00:50,360 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 1: and sometimes terrifying things we explore here. Yeah. So Matt 14 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: good up, combs down, two thumbs up. You just released 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: a show. Oh yeah I did, Yes, I didn't. I 16 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: assisted in the production slash creation of a show called 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: Noble Blood that is now available. It's number three on 18 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 1: the charts right now on iTunes. Congratulations, Yeah, it's all. 19 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: It's Aaron Mackey and Dana Schwartz, It's and Trevor Young. Congratulations. Uh, Paul, 20 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: how are you doing out there? Got a thumbs up 21 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,200 Speaker 1: thumbs up at a stylish angle from Mission Control. I 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:29,839 Speaker 1: want to bring this up before we get too deep 23 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,640 Speaker 1: into this. I just finished Mr. Robot season three finally, 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:34,720 Speaker 1: and you know, we have a bit of a history 25 00:01:34,720 --> 00:01:36,960 Speaker 1: with that show. We did a couple of episodes surrounding 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 1: season two. I believe um and have masks we do show. 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: I have one sitting in my room and when I 28 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: watched the show, I always put it on, which is current? 29 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. Is that too weird? No, that's awesome, 30 00:01:49,200 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 1: that's great, Okay, cool. I just had to bring that up. 31 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: I was just excited that the next one is supposedly 32 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:57,840 Speaker 1: coming out this year. Yes, I had heard, I had heard, 33 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: No that they'll still have Robby Malick. I imagine, I 34 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: certainly hope. So what we're going to talk about maybe 35 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: a sensitive subject to some people who find themselves politically partisan, 36 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:13,120 Speaker 1: right at least in the in the Western sense, And 37 00:02:13,160 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 1: we want to hear your opinions. So, as always, if 38 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: there's something that you want to tell us, and you're 39 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:21,960 Speaker 1: not near a keyboard at the moment, just pause this episode. 40 00:02:22,000 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: We'll wait for you and call us directly. Yes, call 41 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: our number. It is one h three three st d 42 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:32,639 Speaker 1: w y t K. What I love about this conversation 43 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 1: with Mr Robot is that we're we're kind of foreshadowing 44 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: something that will come into play later, right, yeah, without 45 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: fully saying it right right. And there's there's a character 46 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,400 Speaker 1: within the univeral they're a couple, but there's one in 47 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 1: particular in the universe of Mr Robot that I find 48 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:54,480 Speaker 1: that maybe you will too, has some similarities to our 49 00:02:55,800 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: guest of honor, our person of interest. There we go, 50 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: There we go? Are p o I? Today Mrs Robot 51 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 1: concerns shadowy forces working in secret, conspiring right, the power 52 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: behind the throne. And it's often said in fiction and 53 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: nonfiction alike that the true power of a nation at 54 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,160 Speaker 1: kingdom or an empire isn't usually the face. It's often 55 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: not the person on the throne. It's the people behind 56 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: that person. The folks you see standing silently behind a king, 57 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: a prime minister, or a president as they deliver a 58 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: speech they probably did not write. Today's episode is about 59 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: one such character, one of the most influential people in 60 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:45,360 Speaker 1: the history of modern US politics, Henry Kissinger. So let's 61 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: go to the beginning. Henry Kissinger was born Hinz Alfred 62 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: Kissinger on May nineteen twenty three in a place called First, Germany. 63 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,680 Speaker 1: He was one of two sons born to Paula Stern 64 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 1: Kissinger and Louis Kissinger. Now, his father was a teacher, 65 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, there was this group of people 66 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: that came to power called the Nazis, and when that occurred, 67 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,400 Speaker 1: he lost his job in his entire career. You know. 68 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: The Nazis. Of course, we're carrying out the orders of 69 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,839 Speaker 1: Mr Adolf hitler Um and they, of course began prosecuting 70 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: Jewish people throughout Germany and countries all surrounding Germany. And uh, 71 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:29,279 Speaker 1: the Kissingers were in fact Jewish, and their family, Uh, 72 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 1: I guess the larger families saw saw the effects of 73 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: this firsthand. Now, of course, Henry was just a little 74 00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:39,800 Speaker 1: boy at the time, and he's he seemed to be 75 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:42,719 Speaker 1: a better student, at least to his parents and to 76 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:44,839 Speaker 1: the people around him. He knows, he's a better student 77 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: than perhaps an athlete or you know, someone who is 78 00:04:48,279 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 1: going to pursue some kind of physical career. And you know, 79 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:56,400 Speaker 1: as the the anti Semitism was increasing there in Germany 80 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 1: where they were living, the whole family decided, we have 81 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: to get out of here, and in nineteen thirty eight 82 00:05:00,800 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 1: they ended up going to England, and then not long 83 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: after that they ended up going to the United States, 84 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:10,919 Speaker 1: which was a prescient move for any student of history. 85 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: The family. Once they reached the U. S they ended 86 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,560 Speaker 1: up settling in New York City, which you may remember 87 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,479 Speaker 1: from several Salcy commercials. Kissinger completed high school there and 88 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: began taking night classes at City College with the intention 89 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:28,039 Speaker 1: of becoming an accountant a c P. A. Oh on 90 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: what small things does history hinge? You know what I mean? 91 00:05:31,800 --> 00:05:34,359 Speaker 1: It could have gone a very different way. Did you 92 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: imagine him as a c P. A We'll see. I 93 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't hear what you think about that? Yeah, So he 94 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: worked his way through college. He went to a factory 95 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,200 Speaker 1: during the day and then he would go to class. 96 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,440 Speaker 1: During World War Two, he joined the military and served 97 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: in Germany. He was working in army intelligence. It is 98 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,120 Speaker 1: a bit odd, right because he's from Germany. But he 99 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:55,440 Speaker 1: went to the United States and now he's going back 100 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,919 Speaker 1: to Germany to fight for the Americans or with you know, 101 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,720 Speaker 1: as an American. Well that that is uh, you know, 102 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:07,280 Speaker 1: it seems counterintuitive, but it happens a lot. So I've 103 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:12,360 Speaker 1: got a couple of friends whose families were originally from 104 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:16,200 Speaker 1: Iran and I live in the US, but because they 105 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: spoke Farsie, they got jobs as translators, and yeah, they 106 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: ended up, you know, going back to the Middle East. 107 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 1: I'm assuming I believe that they are US based, but 108 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: I can't understand just yeah, no, of course, we can't 109 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: say anymore. I understand understand that well. And this is 110 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 1: a it's a big deal here. So even even though 111 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: he was very young at the time when his family left, 112 00:06:43,120 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: or you know, somewhat young when when the family left Germany, 113 00:06:46,920 --> 00:06:50,679 Speaker 1: he still experienced what was occurring in his home country. 114 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: And then to leave and then get to go back 115 00:06:53,240 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 1: and serve in the military for a country that's going 116 00:06:55,760 --> 00:07:00,240 Speaker 1: to essentially attempt to liberate the country from which you've lad, 117 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:04,239 Speaker 1: that's a big deal. Oh, the biggest, are you kidding? Yes? 118 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: He also it's something you and I mentioned off air 119 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:12,320 Speaker 1: met He also didn't sit idly by during his time 120 00:07:12,320 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: in the service, right, he actually saw combat. Yeah, he 121 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: he got to experience the Battle of the Bulge firsthand. 122 00:07:19,560 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: And if you don't know much about that, we won't 123 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: go into it, but I would say, look it up. Uh, 124 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 1: it's it was a German offensive that occurred in the West, 125 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: and history describes it as quote the deadliest and most 126 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,920 Speaker 1: desperate battle of the war in the West and involved 127 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 1: three armies, three German armies that essentially we're we're attacking 128 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:44,679 Speaker 1: over the course of quite a while. And again there's 129 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 1: his historian, his biographer, um Ferguson Nile Ferguson, I believe 130 00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 1: it is his name. He describes it as Henry Kissinger 131 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: experienced heavy shelling firsthand. And again these are these are 132 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: big experiences for a um, a growing person, you know, 133 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: someone who's coming into their own having this kind of 134 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: thing occurred to him. And that's not all that happened 135 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 1: during the war, right. He also had the stark and terrifying, 136 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: heartbreaking revelation that all of his family members that stayed 137 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: in Germany were dead. He witnessed the horrors of the Holocaust. 138 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: He was present during the liberation of a concentration camp, 139 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 1: and following the war he remained in Europe as an 140 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 1: instructor at a place called the European Command Intelligence School, 141 00:08:35,000 --> 00:08:39,559 Speaker 1: also in Germany, and then he returns to the US. 142 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 1: He goes to Harvard and en rolls there and he 143 00:08:42,880 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: graduated in the class of nineteen fifty and he had 144 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: a degree in government. Uh. Pretty interesting stuff there, right, 145 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 1: So he's changing course quite a bit from those original 146 00:08:52,920 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: aspirations of becoming an accountant. Um again with these experiences 147 00:08:57,240 --> 00:08:59,800 Speaker 1: that are changing him. He U. He continued to study 148 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:02,960 Speaker 1: as a graduate student and ended up earning a master's 149 00:09:03,000 --> 00:09:06,439 Speaker 1: degree in nineteen fifty two and then eventually his PhD 150 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: in fifty four. And he was also teaching at the 151 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: Harvard University. And here's here's an important note. So we 152 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,080 Speaker 1: always have to be very careful when attempting to ascribe 153 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:24,280 Speaker 1: personal motives to uh to an individual. And we we 154 00:09:24,360 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 1: know that something happened, something fundamentally changed his life during 155 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: his experiences in World War Two. He became someone with 156 00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:40,440 Speaker 1: a mission. We like the historians research have conjectured here 157 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:47,839 Speaker 1: on what what his revelatory moments were, and those are 158 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 1: pretty good guesses. But regardless of what specific instance it 159 00:09:52,040 --> 00:09:55,560 Speaker 1: was that was the big change. Post war, he is 160 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:59,719 Speaker 1: no longer interested in accounting, or perhaps if we want 161 00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: to acts a poetic, he's concerned with a different sort 162 00:10:03,320 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: of accounting. Oh yes, he's concerned with what he sees 163 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 1: as moral accounting, right, preventing, oddly enough, the horrors of 164 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: World War Two, fighting for what he and he's alive 165 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: today fighting for what he would he is a greater good. 166 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: And this brings him to his career in academia. Right. So, 167 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 1: as you mentioned, he earned his PhD in nineteen fifty four. 168 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 1: Between nineteen fifty two and nineteen sixty nine, he directed 169 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: the Harvard International Seminar. This was a study organization in 170 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: which the advanced students, along with a professor, conduct research 171 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: and contribute to discussions. It's sort of a nascent think tank, 172 00:10:47,800 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: which happens a lot in grad schools. And in this 173 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: kind of environment and position lets him start making relationships 174 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: that he would eventually use later on in his career, right, right, 175 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: And and it may surprise some of us to learn 176 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: just how much policy here in the United States is 177 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:12,960 Speaker 1: written by professors in academic roles. You know, it starts 178 00:11:12,960 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: with proposals, it starts with research, right and studies, or 179 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: it starts with something like ALEC wherein that's that's capital 180 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: A capital L, capital E, capital C. It's a process 181 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: through which corporations dictate policy for better or worse. I'm 182 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 1: just saying it doesn't. Because a politician is a fan 183 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,360 Speaker 1: of something doesn't mean they actually wrote it anymore than 184 00:11:36,640 --> 00:11:39,440 Speaker 1: a prime minister president giving a speech means they actually 185 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: wrote it. Ultimately, we're going to learn here that power, 186 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: many times and in many ways is developed through personal 187 00:11:49,400 --> 00:11:54,319 Speaker 1: relationships more than a lot of other ways. Right, absolutely, absolutely, 188 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: which is a failure of the human species because it 189 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: lessens the impact of meritocracy. But that's a whole other thing. 190 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: It's a whole other bag of badgers here. The point 191 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 1: is for this part, this is where Kissinger gets his 192 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: taste of being a power behind the throne. He's visited 193 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 1: by tons of international figures that, as you said, Matt, 194 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:21,120 Speaker 1: he'll later deal with in a governmental capacity. He joins 195 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: the Council on Foreign Relations, and he publishes something called 196 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,760 Speaker 1: Nuclear Weapons and Foreign Policy, and this gets him some 197 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: bona fide, some street cred. He is now seen as 198 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 1: a leading expert on international relations and national defense policy. 199 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 1: And then he gets involved with the Rockefellers. Oh yeah, 200 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: he has eighteen months of working with this thing called 201 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,440 Speaker 1: the Rockefeller Brothers Fund. He actually directed it in nineteen fifties, 202 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:53,800 Speaker 1: six and I it had it had this special Studies project. Okay, 203 00:12:53,800 --> 00:12:55,959 Speaker 1: now just listen to this. It's a program developed to 204 00:12:56,280 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: investigate possible domestic and international problems. Okay, I I hear 205 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: what you're saying to me. Investigate possible domestic and international problems. 206 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: Then in nineteen fifty seven, he became a lecturer at Harvard. 207 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 1: He's um, you know, talking to to the students like 208 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 1: he's changing or or perhaps influencing the way students are thinking. 209 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: And eventually he gets promoted to a professor in nineteen 210 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: sixty two, and again he's able to teach others some 211 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:29,400 Speaker 1: of the things that he's learning and the ways he's 212 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 1: viewing the world already. Right. And also during this time 213 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: he joins other international and domestic organizations and think tanks. 214 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: He's at the National Security Council, the Arms Controlled Disarmament Agency, 215 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:45,000 Speaker 1: and the RAND Corporation. While dude, they just kind of 216 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,679 Speaker 1: jump in all the things we've mentioned thus far that 217 00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 1: he's joining up Council and Foreign Relation Relations, the RAND Corporation. 218 00:13:51,600 --> 00:13:54,480 Speaker 1: We've talked about a lot of these, right, Yes, they 219 00:13:54,480 --> 00:13:57,320 Speaker 1: are the source of what could plausibly be called a 220 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,680 Speaker 1: lot of real conspiracies not theories, so we'll just laundry 221 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 1: list real quick. The rest of the broad strokes of 222 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,559 Speaker 1: his career. So he's working full time at Harvard from 223 00:14:08,600 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: sixty two to sixty five, and sixty five he becomes 224 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:15,839 Speaker 1: a consultant to the State Department. He's their Vietnam consultant 225 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,680 Speaker 1: from sixty five to nineteen sixty seven. He visits Vietnam 226 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:23,880 Speaker 1: several times. Most of nineteen sixty eight he was working 227 00:14:24,360 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 1: as a campaign guru for then Governor Nelson Rockefeller, who 228 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 1: was running for the Republican nomination for the presidency against 229 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,880 Speaker 1: Richard Nixon yep, yep, against Richie Nicks himself. And despite 230 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: the fact that Nixon did defeat Rockefeller, Rockefeller contacted Nixon 231 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: was like, hey, we don't know exactly. What they said 232 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 1: was something along the lines of like, hey, good game, bro. 233 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 1: By the way, uh, you know, you had some real 234 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 1: hustle out there. I want to give a shout out 235 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 1: to my boy, h k uh. Put him on the team, 236 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: get him off the bench. And that's how Kissinger ended 237 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: up heading the National Security Council. Kissinger already had a 238 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 1: plan laid out. He did not like the U s 239 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,760 Speaker 1: foreign policy toward the U s s R. The Soviet Union. 240 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: He thought that they had been too nice. Essentially, they 241 00:15:15,840 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: have been kid gloves. They had not been consistent, and 242 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: as we know, consistency is a huge deal in any 243 00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: international relationship. So he said, look, let's be honest. The 244 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: Soviet Union, they're the big batties. There are main rival 245 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:36,200 Speaker 1: there are main opponents. But you gotta respect him, you 246 00:15:36,240 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 1: know what I mean, That's what he was. He was 247 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: kind of in the same way. He said, look, take 248 00:15:39,640 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: him seriously. It's dangerous to nuclear power. And one of 249 00:15:43,520 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: his big early successes was the institution of de Tompte, 250 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: which is easy relationships, easing tensions, saying, look, we both 251 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: know the lay of the chessboard here. We're probably never 252 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 1: going to be friends, but we should communicate and we 253 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: should do our best not to blow up the world 254 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: while we fight with our nuclear weapons. Some would say 255 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: that's pretty smart. That's a good way to to look 256 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 1: at things. Let's not blow each other up. We get it, 257 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: we know who we are. I can I understand that. Yeah, 258 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: And that's that's a very clear cut thing, right, and 259 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: it's and it's a powerful thing, even even in a 260 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,880 Speaker 1: microcosmic level. Some of us may have had that occur 261 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: in our personal lives, yeah, certainly, but it is far 262 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 1: more nuanced than that. Right in order like that, if 263 00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: that's the ideal, or that's the baseline goal, let's not 264 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: blow each other up. We understand who we are underneath 265 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,560 Speaker 1: that is just oh wasps, just a swarm of wasps 266 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: for some reason. Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. So. One of 267 00:16:57,560 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: the things he does is the successful agreement on something 268 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: called SALT or Strategic Arms Limitations treaty, the Soviet Union 269 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: and the US say okay, we're gonna limit the number 270 00:17:10,880 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: of nuclear weapons we have. We're not going to get 271 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,440 Speaker 1: rid of them ever, because we both know who we are. 272 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: But you know we we promised not to have millions 273 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: of them, because that's just egregious. And when they when 274 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: they signed this agreement, he was seeing as someone again 275 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: working for the greater good, and the greater good being 276 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: avoiding nuclear annihilation or a nuclear war. And now you 277 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,120 Speaker 1: will hear people argue whether he is a hero or 278 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,640 Speaker 1: a villain. He used to speak about once a year 279 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: here in Georgia, and I believe he hasn't done that 280 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: for a number of years. But you could go visit 281 00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:57,719 Speaker 1: him here him speak at different places, and he is 282 00:17:57,800 --> 00:18:02,320 Speaker 1: treated very much as an elder statesman, a policy emperor, 283 00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: you know, a king behind the throne. But regardless of 284 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,880 Speaker 1: what you might think of his work, there is no 285 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: arguing that he has been anything other than massively successful 286 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:17,240 Speaker 1: in his personal life. Between January and January, he pulled 287 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: in an estimated fifty eight million dollars. This makes him, 288 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:24,359 Speaker 1: by far one of the highest paid politicians in the world, 289 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: accepting accepting you know, dictators or putin type figures, people 290 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: who set that number themselves, essentially by the state or 291 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 1: whatever the state pays them. Right. His estimated net worth 292 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: is said to be a hundred and eighty five million, 293 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: according to the publication People with Money. Some folks regard 294 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:45,200 Speaker 1: him as a hero. They say he's a man who 295 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: helped secure the US position as the hedge them on 296 00:18:48,040 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 1: as the premier global superpower. Others, however, consider him an 297 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 1: irredeemable villain. Why we'll talk about that right after a 298 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: quick word from our sponsor. Here's where he gets crazy. 299 00:19:08,080 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: I get. While opinions on Kissinger may differ over the 300 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: course of his career, he has been implicated in numerous 301 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:20,520 Speaker 1: activities that could be called at the very least illegal. 302 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: He's also been the subject of numerous conspiracy theories. Let's 303 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:30,120 Speaker 1: just laundry lists some of the illegal actions that he 304 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:36,520 Speaker 1: was directly involved in. Absolutely, Let's jump to nine and 305 00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: seventy in Cambodia. Now, Henry Kissinger is considered, i guessed, 306 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: one of the one of the main architects of the 307 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: secret bombing that occurred there in Cambodia. And this, uh, 308 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 1: this bombing itself played a really important role in bringing 309 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,960 Speaker 1: about the Khmer rouge that we've discussed before on this show, 310 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: certainly on YouTube as well, bringing them about as a 311 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 1: power there in Cambodia, as basically an unintended side effect 312 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 1: of taking out the power that already existed in that country, 313 00:20:09,040 --> 00:20:14,239 Speaker 1: attempting to eliminate the communist threat. Yeah, and let's just 314 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,119 Speaker 1: go ahead and say this at the top here. Many 315 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: times we've seen over the history of the United States 316 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:23,719 Speaker 1: that there is a major enemy that we will identify 317 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: an attempt to eliminate, or even if it's just ideological, 318 00:20:27,960 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 1: and then by militarily or through a coup eliminating that. 319 00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: There are these unintended consequences that come about because of 320 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: the vacuum of power that exists in whatever that place is, 321 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:43,320 Speaker 1: where some group or despotter person will come through and 322 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,399 Speaker 1: just grasp that power. And that's what we see happening 323 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:52,239 Speaker 1: in Cambodia. In Yep, at least forty people died as 324 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: a result of this, the bombing itself that he was 325 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:58,360 Speaker 1: the architect, right, and he entered into the ceasefire negotiations 326 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:02,560 Speaker 1: with North Vietnam. He was awarded a Nobel Peace Prize 327 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: for this, and his critics find that ironic, and reportedly 328 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: even Kissinger himself was like, I don't deserve this. Yeah, well, 329 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: especially when you think about the kamarusion and what happened 330 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:23,000 Speaker 1: afterwards because because of them, millions of people were slaughtered. Yes, absolutely, 331 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 1: Let's go to October nine. He had this thing called 332 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: Madman theory, and mad Man Theory, now with the benefit 333 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:37,359 Speaker 1: of retrospect, is weird and hilarious. It was essentially a 334 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,800 Speaker 1: pr branding campaign whereby Kissinger wanted to make leaders of 335 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:51,160 Speaker 1: communist nations think that Richard Nixon was insane. It was like, yeah, 336 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: like like larger life kind of crazy person. You don't 337 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: know is he going left, is he going right? Is 338 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 1: he launching a nuke. Uh this does it remind you 339 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: of something? Maybe? Uh maybe, But in this case it's 340 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 1: an act. So the I mean, in this case it is. 341 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: It is a calculated thing, and it was of great benefit. 342 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:15,520 Speaker 1: Two in backdoor diplomatic conversations, because one thing a lot 343 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:20,040 Speaker 1: of diplomats do is they say, look, we're like each other. 344 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: We're just we happen to be on different sides of 345 00:22:22,359 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: a conversation, just trying to do the best for the 346 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 1: people we represent. And you know, I get it, Like 347 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: I work directly with Nixon and he is nuts, So 348 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: I don't know what he's gonna do. I feel like 349 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: it's best for us to work this out between us 350 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 1: and quickly before he gets I mean, he might have 351 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:42,440 Speaker 1: a bad day. He's got that football thing that has 352 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,360 Speaker 1: the codes in it. It's crazy. So yeah, So it's 353 00:22:45,400 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 1: kind of like building report like you're you're as a diplomat, 354 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,439 Speaker 1: you're sort of distancing yourself from the policy and saying like, 355 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,160 Speaker 1: I'm here to help you, buddy. So this is effective. 356 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 1: He has something called Operation Giant Lance Nixon again. Nixon 357 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,600 Speaker 1: sends eighteen b fifty two bombers with nuclear warheads to 358 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: the border of the Soviet Union the eastern border, and 359 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 1: they're hoping that this madman theory is believable enough that 360 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: the Soviet government will panic and say and pressure it's 361 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: proxy North Vietnam to accept US peace demands. And could 362 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: you say this is a brilliant sign up? Could you 363 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: say it's just it's ugly. Uh, it's a bully tactic. 364 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 1: But bully tactics kind of part for the course and 365 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: a lot of these things, especially for playing real politic. 366 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 1: And you know, and you're playing with nukes, and you're 367 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 1: playing with nukes, that's the problem. Yeah, And then in 368 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: the end, North Vietnam is victorious. And uh, you know, 369 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: in the Paris peace accords occur anyway, right, So one, 370 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: at least in the case of a note, at least 371 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: in the case of giant Lance, thousands and thousands of 372 00:24:03,960 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 1: people did not die. In nineteen seventy one, he supported 373 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,200 Speaker 1: Pakistan as at massacre over a million people during what 374 00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:17,160 Speaker 1: was called the Bangladesh Liberation War. He also joked about 375 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:22,639 Speaker 1: the massacre of Bengali Hindus and he sneered at Americans 376 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:26,199 Speaker 1: who quote bleed for the dying Bengali's That's according to 377 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: Professor Gary Bass, who was writing in Political magazine about this. 378 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:35,600 Speaker 1: Bass also says that Kissinger's policy was again oriented towards 379 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 1: what he saw as the greater good Pakistan. He might 380 00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: say as some imperfections, including you know, massacreing millions of people, 381 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: but it's also not communist and it's good to have 382 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 1: that chess piece in play to to prevent the spread 383 00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: of communism. Now, remember he's working closely with Richard Nixon 384 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: during a lot of this stuff, and he he ends 385 00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:03,959 Speaker 1: up being one of the primary reasons that Nixon begins 386 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: wire tapping everybody and recording everybody, and he ends up 387 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,359 Speaker 1: being a part of Watergate, or he's involved at least, 388 00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:15,000 Speaker 1: but we can leave that for perhaps another episode. Um, 389 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: you should just know that he was involved in Watergate 390 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: and wire tapping. Yes, yeah, that definitely happened. He also 391 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:27,479 Speaker 1: aided Indonesia under the brutal dictatorship of Sue Harto in 392 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:32,640 Speaker 1: terms of financial aid and military funding. In seventy three, 393 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: he overthrew the democratically elected Salvador Allende and Chile, installing 394 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: the dictator Augusto Pinochet. Yeah, and remember he didn't do 395 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: it with his bare hands like that. But man, that 396 00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: guy made it happen through you know, I guess engineering 397 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,480 Speaker 1: is a good way to put it. Been he he 398 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: made it occur with his voice, right, He puppeteered it. 399 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 1: So he also supported Operation Condor. Operation Condor was a 400 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:06,400 Speaker 1: campaign designed to get the secret police of fascist dictators 401 00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:11,280 Speaker 1: in South America to work together, supporting coups on non 402 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: fascist countries and facilitating drug dealing in the region. Has 403 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: a way to provide funds for these kinds of activities. 404 00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 1: He was a He was a fan of Pino champ 405 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: because he was not a communist, and he was also 406 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,760 Speaker 1: a fan of the Junta in Argentina at the time. 407 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,560 Speaker 1: We also found, according to documents that were released in 408 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: that he signaled in the nineteen seventies to Argentina's right 409 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,320 Speaker 1: wing military leaders something along the lines of, Hey, you know, 410 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: descent is just a real pill, isn't it. Guys. If 411 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,760 Speaker 1: you need to crack down on those commies and those 412 00:26:52,760 --> 00:26:56,760 Speaker 1: pinkos and those hippies, well you know, we're we don't 413 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: really have a problem with that. We just want you 414 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,960 Speaker 1: to know we don't have a problem with it. And 415 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: that became implicit support of what is called the Dirty War. 416 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 1: The Dirty War resulted in the deaths of more than 417 00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: thirty thousand people. And one of the craziest things about 418 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:15,639 Speaker 1: those documents that you mentioned Ben that were released in 419 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 1: is that there are accounts from several people, one of 420 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: whom was Robert Hill, who was the ambassador to Argentina, 421 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: and it's this conversation that had Kissinger had with a 422 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: foreign minister there um named Gazette And Okay, so apparently 423 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: this foreign minister was was really afraid that if they 424 00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: were doing this dirty war, they were going to carry 425 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,360 Speaker 1: this stuff out and they were going to continue doing it. 426 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: They were afraid that the United States would end up 427 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,240 Speaker 1: cracking down on their activities and their government in general 428 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: as a way of fighting against these human rights violations 429 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: that were occurring. Right, And then Kissinger says to him, 430 00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this is paraphrasing, but you don't you don't 431 00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: need to worry about that. That's not going to happen. Right. 432 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: So it is maybe a little bit hyperbolic, but it 433 00:28:10,080 --> 00:28:13,000 Speaker 1: was a breakfast that resulted in the death of thirty people, 434 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: but it wasn't really they were going to they were 435 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: probably going to make the dirty war happen anyway, Kissinger 436 00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 1: in this case knew about it and did not stop 437 00:28:21,600 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: it and gave them sort of an atta boy. Yeah, 438 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: and let's go to one more example. In December of nine, 439 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:34,399 Speaker 1: he approved the Indonesian invasion of East two more, resulting 440 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 1: in a hundred thousands to a hundred and eighty deaths 441 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: conflict related deaths. And conflict related death could be anything 442 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: from starvation or disease related to the horrors of war. 443 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: What we're saying is it doesn't have to be an 444 00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: actual you know, gunshot to the head or death by bombing. 445 00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: War brings death in many forms. Let's put that in perspective. 446 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: So we said a hundred to a hundred eighty thousand 447 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:08,680 Speaker 1: people died in conflict related deaths. Three hundred thousand people 448 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: were forced to relocate. Maybe not the biggest number until 449 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: you consider the total population of the country at the time. Yeah, 450 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: only six two human beings. So that's over half of 451 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: the people were relocated. And add on to that the 452 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: number of people who died. That's a that's a rough 453 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 1: move there. This tally of massive death that has been 454 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 1: indirectly attributed to Kissinger seems it seems like quite a 455 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: tab to add up over time, you know, what I mean. 456 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 1: And again there are a lot of people who would say, 457 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:50,200 Speaker 1: now hold on and we'll get to them after a 458 00:29:50,200 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. Now hold on, it's fanta say, hey, 459 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: governments are big, and we need to avoid the lazy 460 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 1: fallacy of blame in all these events on a single man. 461 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: He might have had his hands tied, he might have 462 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: not been aware that this was all happening at all. Right, right, 463 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 1: you know it is true. Um, we we have been 464 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: pretty rough on Kissinger already, saying that he engineered all 465 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:25,000 Speaker 1: these things, basically blaming him for all these deaths. Um. 466 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe that really isn't all that fair. 467 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe here's the problem, Matt. Experts, including people 468 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: who applaud Kissinger's actions, disagree with the idea that he 469 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: was unaware of these things. Christopher Hitchens, he was recognized 470 00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: for a number of other things. He's political, he's uh, 471 00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: he was in his time a huge proponent of atheism 472 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: and so on. Right, that may be one of the 473 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: ways he's best known today. Um, quite hilarious in his 474 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:01,400 Speaker 1: digs of other people. Yeah, con tankerous, Yeah, and and 475 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 1: also hated or loved essentially absolutely, he had no chill. 476 00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,840 Speaker 1: Christ Higins had no chill, one way or the other. 477 00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,800 Speaker 1: He wrote a book called The Trial of Henry Kissinger, 478 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:16,480 Speaker 1: and in this book he says the degree of micromanagement 479 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: revealed in Kissinger's memoirs forbids the idea that anything of 480 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,680 Speaker 1: importance took place without his knowledge or permission of nothing. 481 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: Is this more true than his own individual involvement in 482 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: the bombing of Neutral Cambodia. And then so that's that's 483 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: one of the many arguments. In full disclosure. Hitchens is 484 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,200 Speaker 1: not a fan of Kissinger. Then it's pretty it's pretty 485 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: obvious in the way he writes about him. But even 486 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 1: people who are like, you know, I gotta break a 487 00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:48,280 Speaker 1: few eggs, that's how Jill political outlets work. Even there, 488 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 1: they will say that Kissinger did this, It didn't just 489 00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,360 Speaker 1: happen when he was off on vacation on a Friday. 490 00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: According to a guy named Greg Grandin, he's a professor 491 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:01,800 Speaker 1: of history at New York Universe. This means that quote 492 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 1: a back of the envelope count would attribute Tree maybe 493 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:08,600 Speaker 1: four million deaths to Kissing his actions, but that number 494 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 1: probably undercounts his victims. Yikes. Yeah, that's a history. A 495 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 1: history professor at New York University saying that you should 496 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: probably attribute three or four million deaths to this man. 497 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,000 Speaker 1: And this doesn't even touch on the conspiracy theories. Oh no, 498 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,120 Speaker 1: my god. Again, when you are a part of all 499 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 1: of these different organizations, when you're essentially the power behind 500 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 1: the government, or at least um you know, if if 501 00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:40,800 Speaker 1: it's a Disney movie, he's who are I forget all 502 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 1: the main like Jaffar type characters, but the the counselor 503 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: that sits next to the king, that whispers dark things 504 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: into the king or queen's ear. I mean, that's essentially 505 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,560 Speaker 1: that's that's really whittling it down. But that's a lot 506 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,480 Speaker 1: of what he ends up doing, whispering to other people 507 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,560 Speaker 1: in power who make the decisions. I think when you're 508 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 1: when you have that position, you are going to be 509 00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: at least targeted by people who see conspiracies, if not 510 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: actually taking part in conspiracies. Absolutely well well said and 511 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: well put. So as as you mentioned, this is due 512 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: to his membership and these enormously influential bodies. He's a 513 00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: member of the Bohemian Growth, a member of the Council 514 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: on Foreign Relations, a member of the Builderberg Group, a 515 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: member of the Aspen Institute, a participant in the Trilateral Commission. 516 00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: We have episodes on pretty much all of those, except, 517 00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: I believe, the Aspen Institute. We also need to mention 518 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: that the racist and anti Semitic conspiracy theories come into 519 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: play here too. They harp on Kissinger due to his 520 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:53,200 Speaker 1: Jewish backgrounds, and then you'll you'll read, you know, the 521 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 1: these sorts of things, saying that he is a key 522 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,000 Speaker 1: player in some sort of secretive Jewish cabal. This gets 523 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: tied into those allegations of international banking cartels and so on. 524 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: But while the Jewish conspiracy claptrap has been thoroughly and 525 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: thankfully debunked, there is bad news here. The bad news 526 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,880 Speaker 1: is that banking cartel conspiracies do have sand Some of 527 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: them are very very very true, and it is highly 528 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: likely that Henry Kissinger ran into something like banking led 529 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,360 Speaker 1: conspiracies during his career. I mean he did want to 530 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: be an accountant. Oh wow, I didn't even think about that. 531 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: I didn't think we would have one that goes into 532 00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:37,919 Speaker 1: one that hinges on his accounting paths. I mean, that's 533 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 1: a very good point, man. So he is. He has 534 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 1: been both a participant in genuine conspiracies and subject to 535 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: uh speculation on other conspiracy theories. Right, and for a 536 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: lot of people, the big question is, at what point 537 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,799 Speaker 1: do these policies become war himes, the conspiracies that he 538 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:04,960 Speaker 1: created and enacted. At what point did they go beyond 539 00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: um being secretive for the purpose of national security and 540 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,960 Speaker 1: become something that you should prosecute someone for? And what 541 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: really is the difference between those two things? Right? Where 542 00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: is the line? Where is the line? Does a guy 543 00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: named Mario del Pero, a professor of international history and 544 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:26,480 Speaker 1: author of the Eccentric Realist Henry Kissinger in the Shaping 545 00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: of American Foreign Policy? He reacts in a different way. 546 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:33,880 Speaker 1: He throws a little a little cold water on this. 547 00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: He says, I am afraid that, by the standards some 548 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: of his critics have applied to Kissinger, numerous post US 549 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,799 Speaker 1: statesmen could be accused of crimes against humanity. And that 550 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: applies perhaps to the vast majority of the leaders of 551 00:35:48,520 --> 00:35:53,359 Speaker 1: modern great powers. Very good point, right, Like, at some point, 552 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: if you're in charge of a country, are you responsible 553 00:35:56,640 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 1: for every bad thing that country does? Oh? Gosh, it's true. 554 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,440 Speaker 1: That's kind of a tough truth. I guess we have 555 00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: to face a little bit here, right, Absolutely, we have 556 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:10,360 Speaker 1: to face it head on. Let's also let's also continue 557 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 1: just a little bit because del Pero doesn't believe that 558 00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:17,760 Speaker 1: Henry Kissinger was very good at his job. To be honest, 559 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 1: he says, he's not some sort of arch manipulator. He 560 00:36:20,480 --> 00:36:25,400 Speaker 1: says Kissinger was simplistic, binary even uninformed. During his tenure, 561 00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:30,280 Speaker 1: he was dogmatic, he adhered to the zero sum game 562 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: of international politics. And then del Pero says, in short, 563 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,439 Speaker 1: he wasn't a war criminal. He wasn't a very deep 564 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: or sophisticated thinker. He rarely challenged the intellectual vogues or 565 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: fads of the time, and once in government, he displayed 566 00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:52,359 Speaker 1: a certain intellectual laziness. Wow, that's interesting. It's an interesting take, right, 567 00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:57,000 Speaker 1: that's saying, that's saying. Look, the argument here is almost 568 00:36:57,040 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: like if he's a war criminal, everyone else is. And 569 00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:04,279 Speaker 1: also the hype's not real. He wasn't that good at 570 00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,439 Speaker 1: what he did. Yeah, he wasn't as big a part 571 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 1: of any of this. It's I I wonder about the 572 00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,400 Speaker 1: motivation there, because it's certainly not a view that is 573 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: or it's not a view of Kissinger that you see 574 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: very often, right again, like we kind of laid it 575 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:25,400 Speaker 1: out at the top there, he's a lot of times 576 00:37:25,800 --> 00:37:29,479 Speaker 1: seen as this war criminal or you know, a hero 577 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,439 Speaker 1: and just being a lazy government guy that's just sitting 578 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 1: around not doing much, being uninformed. Yeah, you don't hear 579 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:39,280 Speaker 1: that very often. I was thinking about the two thousand 580 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: sixteen Democratic debates, just really quick side here. Um it 581 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: was when oh, I hope I'm not getting this wrong. 582 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,560 Speaker 1: I believe it was Hillary Clinton And at least it 583 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 1: was a discussion between the moderator, Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders, 584 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: and they were discussing Henry Kissinger, and uh, Hillary Clinton 585 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: was a supporter of Kissinger. And at some point it's 586 00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 1: brought up that yes, she said, yes, I'll take the 587 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 1: advice essentially, or the counsel of Henry Kissinger. You know, 588 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:17,239 Speaker 1: I believe him to be very informed and you know, 589 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,439 Speaker 1: his opinion I value essentially. And then Bernie Sanders said 590 00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,080 Speaker 1: the opposite, like, no, absolutely, and laid out some of 591 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: the war crimes things at least in very very brief ways, 592 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: and just said no, I absolutely won't take advice from 593 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: this person. And they hadn't a really fairly, fairly brief 594 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: but interesting exchange about him on the stage, Uh at 595 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:46,759 Speaker 1: a debate like that, Yeah, Kissinger is seeing as a 596 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:51,759 Speaker 1: tutor of Clinton. Yeah, which I think would surprise some 597 00:38:51,880 --> 00:38:56,279 Speaker 1: people who are more on the conservative side, because you know, 598 00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 1: you were so politics suffers from that false dichotomy here 599 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:05,560 Speaker 1: in the US, and people would say, Okay, this guy 600 00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: did a bunch of stuff under the Richard Nixon administration, 601 00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,719 Speaker 1: So why is he advising? Why is he a counselor 602 00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 1: to Hillary Clinton? And this is a point where you know, 603 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:25,319 Speaker 1: you have to ask yourself fingers on a hand, right, Yeah? Well, 604 00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 1: and and Hillary Clinton also makes a very rational point here, 605 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,000 Speaker 1: which is this, this man has such a wealth of 606 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:36,360 Speaker 1: experience in dealing with foreign powers as well as the 607 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: United States as a power. Why would you not listen 608 00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:44,000 Speaker 1: to him? Just from an experienced perspective? I mean, that 609 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,680 Speaker 1: does seem like a rational point. The question then becomes 610 00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:51,759 Speaker 1: one of not just experience, but of accomplishment success or 611 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 1: lack thereof sure and alignment and like like, are you 612 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:00,040 Speaker 1: going to align yourselves with that kind of power? I 613 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: guess um if you're running for something like the officer 614 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: president anyway, I just wanted to throw that out there 615 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: right now. Regardless again of what we may or may 616 00:40:10,040 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 1: not think about Henry Kissinger's individuals. Judges from Argentina, Chile, France, 617 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:19,400 Speaker 1: and Spain are still seeking his testimony regarding crimes committed 618 00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:23,120 Speaker 1: by US client regimes in South America in the nineteen seventies, 619 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: those US backed dictatorships we mentioned earlier. When he was 620 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: in London in April of two thousand one, British activists 621 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,040 Speaker 1: sought his arrest on charges related to the Vietnam War. 622 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: Even in the US, he was the subject of a 623 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: civil suit, but by the family of chilean military chief 624 00:40:39,840 --> 00:40:42,600 Speaker 1: murdered in the seventies as part of the U s 625 00:40:42,640 --> 00:40:46,600 Speaker 1: attempt to block the election of Salvadora. In day now, 626 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: some people doubtlessly see the criticism of Henry Kissinger as 627 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:55,600 Speaker 1: unfounded or even offensive, and calling someone a war criminal 628 00:40:56,000 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: is a very heavy charge. It's a term that's actually 629 00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: rarely you today in political discourse because hauling someone a 630 00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:09,360 Speaker 1: war criminal automatically implies that they have killed massive amounts 631 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: of people through either their direct actions or their policy decisions. 632 00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,360 Speaker 1: Well yeah, because then it becomes an argument of is 633 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: that a war crime? Even though they killed all these people, 634 00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: is that a war crime? Did they do it in 635 00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:25,719 Speaker 1: a way that would constitute that right exactly? And we 636 00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 1: have tons of international law on that very subject. However, 637 00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:33,960 Speaker 1: it is true that Kissinger simply cannot travel to certain 638 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:39,600 Speaker 1: countries for fear of arrest. And this is also something 639 00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:44,240 Speaker 1: in which he is not unique amongst various various former 640 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: politicians and bureaucrats. As we record today's episode, Henry Kissinger 641 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: is alive. He is seven years old. He will likely 642 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: never be prosecuted for his actions. Uh, and some argue 643 00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,880 Speaker 1: that he should not be, as the US is historically 644 00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 1: opposed to any sort of international legal action against serving 645 00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:07,360 Speaker 1: or former US politicians. This is where this is where 646 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,719 Speaker 1: something called the American Service Members Protection Act of two 647 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,240 Speaker 1: thousand two comes into play. It Essentially, it's a law 648 00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,080 Speaker 1: that might be hilarious or terrifying to some of us 649 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: listening outside of the US. It's a law in the 650 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:25,000 Speaker 1: United States that authorizes the use of military force to 651 00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:28,080 Speaker 1: liberate any American or citizen of the U S Allied 652 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 1: country being held in the International Criminal Court that's located 653 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:36,560 Speaker 1: in the Hague. This has been called the Hague Invasion clause. 654 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:41,520 Speaker 1: People in Europe, particularly in the Netherlands, obviously hate this idea. 655 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:45,200 Speaker 1: The law provides for the withdrawal of US military assistance 656 00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,560 Speaker 1: from countries that agree with the i c C Treaty. 657 00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: It restricts US participation in U N peacekeeping unless the 658 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:57,640 Speaker 1: US is immune from prosecution. So and and there's a 659 00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,799 Speaker 1: provision that says the President can change his or her 660 00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: mind on this whenever due to national interest. Wow wow. So, if, 661 00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,960 Speaker 1: for instance, Paul's dodgy international past catches up with him 662 00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:15,040 Speaker 1: and he is he is arrested and taken to the 663 00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,320 Speaker 1: International Criminal Court, the US has law in the books 664 00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:22,160 Speaker 1: that says this country can send an invasion force to 665 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:27,720 Speaker 1: physically rescue him and extricate him from Europe. Well, Paul, 666 00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:32,879 Speaker 1: whatever you did, um, you know, I'm sure it's um 667 00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:36,239 Speaker 1: a much more three dimensional thing that occurred. There are 668 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,920 Speaker 1: reasons behind it, the reasons you did it. But you know, 669 00:43:39,080 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: in the end, we're gonna get your back, buddy. And 670 00:43:43,440 --> 00:43:47,440 Speaker 1: that also is a terrible example, because Paul is hero 671 00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:53,160 Speaker 1: he is and he is known as a gem domestically 672 00:43:53,239 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: and abroad. But one thing is for sure, Henry Kissinger 673 00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:02,239 Speaker 1: did cons fre to do numerous things that were at 674 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:08,160 Speaker 1: the very very least unethical dirty pool. He actively provably 675 00:44:08,320 --> 00:44:12,360 Speaker 1: created and participated in a number of conspiracies to advance 676 00:44:12,440 --> 00:44:15,320 Speaker 1: what he saw as the greater good for the US 677 00:44:15,400 --> 00:44:20,480 Speaker 1: on a global stage. That is true. It's not a theory, 678 00:44:20,960 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: that's not a person's opinion. That is a fact. The 679 00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:29,359 Speaker 1: big question is was it all worth it? Mm hmm, Well, 680 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: we we're gonna, I guess figure that out in the 681 00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: next hundred years. Um. Just really looking back at it, 682 00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:42,600 Speaker 1: I think and generally when someone passes, I think the 683 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 1: the harsh realities of a person's life can be viewed 684 00:44:47,160 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: I guess more fully at least by by society, by history, 685 00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:53,279 Speaker 1: and we can actually talk about it in a way 686 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: that we couldn't when they were still living. Um. So 687 00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: I have a feeling, you know, unfortunate for Henry Kissinger. 688 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: Probably pretty soon he won't be with us, and maybe 689 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,840 Speaker 1: we'll get a little more light shed on exactly what happened. 690 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,719 Speaker 1: Perhaps perhaps perhaps, or it'll go to the grave with him, 691 00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:17,359 Speaker 1: maybe or it will go to the grave. We want 692 00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:20,200 Speaker 1: to know what you think. Is it true that these 693 00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: sorts of things occur and do serve a greater good 694 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,239 Speaker 1: or is that an oversimplification you know what I mean? 695 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:35,480 Speaker 1: Was Kissinger making the best, if harsh, political decisions for 696 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:39,600 Speaker 1: the time or was he blinded by ideology or something else. 697 00:45:40,040 --> 00:45:42,400 Speaker 1: Let us know. You can find us on Facebook, you 698 00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:45,200 Speaker 1: can find us on Instagram, you can find us on Twitter. 699 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,000 Speaker 1: We especially enjoy shouting out Here's where it Gets Crazy, 700 00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:52,160 Speaker 1: which is run by some of the best mods in 701 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,920 Speaker 1: the business. We also, by the way, oh someone a 702 00:45:56,040 --> 00:46:01,279 Speaker 1: happy birthday, pretty related by Happy birthday Cat. Happy birthday Cat, 703 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: Happy birthday Cat. Your birthday was. It was a little 704 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: while ago, but we we we got around to get 705 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: in the shout out there sort of better late than never. Yes, 706 00:46:11,160 --> 00:46:13,239 Speaker 1: happy birthday to you Cat. And if you want to 707 00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:15,440 Speaker 1: call in, you might get on the show. If you 708 00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:17,800 Speaker 1: have a suggestion, anything, you want to tell us a 709 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:20,839 Speaker 1: comment about this episode or another, you can give us 710 00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: a call. We are one eight three three st d 711 00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 1: w y t K. You've got three minutes. You'll hear Ben. 712 00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:31,160 Speaker 1: You'll feel safe, well maybe maybe you'll feel safe. I 713 00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:32,960 Speaker 1: don't know. It's a little a little creepy, but it's 714 00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:35,400 Speaker 1: just the way we roll here. That's that's just the 715 00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:38,320 Speaker 1: way we roll. And if you do not care for phones, 716 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,359 Speaker 1: if you averse to social media, but you still have 717 00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 1: some insight, something to weigh in on, or a suggestion 718 00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:47,520 Speaker 1: for topic you believe your fellow listeners will enjoy. We 719 00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:49,520 Speaker 1: still love to hear from you. We have good news. 720 00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:51,719 Speaker 1: You can send us a good old fashioned email. We 721 00:46:51,800 --> 00:47:13,400 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. M Stuff 722 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:15,040 Speaker 1: they Don't Want You to Know is a production of 723 00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,880 Speaker 1: I heart Radio's How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from 724 00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: my heart Radio, visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 725 00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:22,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.