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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Missed in History Class. A production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio, Happy Friday, Everybody. I'm Tracy V. Wilson,

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Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Fry. One of the topics that we

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Speaker 1: talked about this week on the show was the demon

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Speaker 1: Core and other criticality accidents. And I said in that

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Speaker 1: episode that I might tell a story on myself about

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Speaker 1: a time that I've done an incredibly foolish thing knowing

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Speaker 1: it was foolish but also did not involve handling nuclear material.

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Speaker 1: Please do, I'll tell one as well, and you'll be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm not as stupid as Holly. So I was living

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Speaker 1: in my very first apartment and the building had been

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Speaker 1: sold to another owner, and I was very very nervous

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Speaker 1: about whether I was gonna, like my rent get raised

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Speaker 1: or whether I was going to get evicted. Like I

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Speaker 1: did not want to cause any problems. And I had

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Speaker 1: this stacked washer dryer unit in my kitchen and it

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Speaker 1: had stopped working very well, and I realized it was

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Speaker 1: because the place where like you cleaned the dryer event

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Speaker 1: like that was all plugged up with dryer land. So

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Speaker 1: I was removing the dryer lent from that part of

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Speaker 1: my dryer with a fork. Did you unplugged the dryer? Yes,

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Speaker 1: the dryer was unplugged. I was that smart. But as

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Speaker 1: I was doing this, I thought to myself self, You're

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Speaker 1: gonna drop that fork, and then you're gonna have to

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Speaker 1: explain to your landlord, who you're already concerned about with

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Speaker 1: your housing. You're gonna have to explain to your landlord

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Speaker 1: how you dropped a fork into the interior of your dryer.

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Speaker 1: And then I dropped the fork, um, and I was

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Speaker 1: able to get the fork out of the dryer. I

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Speaker 1: think what I wound up having to do was like

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Speaker 1: detaching the like dryer hose from the wall and going

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Speaker 1: in that way. Uh. It was not my finest moment.

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Speaker 1: I in my defense, I was like twenty two years old,

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Speaker 1: living on my own for the first time, and as

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Speaker 1: I said, very concerned about whether I was about to

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Speaker 1: be evicted because the building had been sold. See. I

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Speaker 1: have so many of those moments. I feel like, there's

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Speaker 1: here's one thing that I will say up front. It

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Speaker 1: never fails that right before I injured myself terribly in

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Speaker 1: some stupid way, I go, this is stupid, and then

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Speaker 1: I do it anyway, and there we go. I will

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Speaker 1: tell the story of um not electricity, but many moons ago.

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Speaker 1: I used to make a lot of giant costumes, like

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Speaker 1: we would wear them to dragon con and stuff. And

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Speaker 1: once I was working on one and I was using

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Speaker 1: an exact oblade to cut I think it was like

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Speaker 1: not PVC. It was like a heavy garden hose that

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Speaker 1: was part of a thing, and I just kind of

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Speaker 1: like had it in my lap, wedged in a weird way,

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Speaker 1: and I remember thinking like I'm being so stupid, but God,

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Speaker 1: I gotta get this thing done. And then suddenly I

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Speaker 1: don't even know quite what happened. I just know that

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Speaker 1: I was looking at my hand and there was a

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Speaker 1: an exact O knife all the way through it, and

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Speaker 1: I just had it standing there on my hand kind

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Speaker 1: of like almost in AWE was like, that's interesting, That's

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Speaker 1: not how that's supposed to. Like my body just like

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Speaker 1: took my brain out of the equation in terms of

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Speaker 1: any sort of horror. And not for the fact that

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Speaker 1: one of my friends, who is very squeamish was there

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Speaker 1: and was like, good, knife out of your hand, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how long I would have just like sat

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Speaker 1: there in a weird shock stupor going gosh, I'm so stupid.

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Speaker 1: Look there's a knife sticking out of my hand. Um,

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Speaker 1: but that happened. Yeah. Since this is an audio podcast,

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Speaker 1: people cannot see like the progressive look of horror that

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Speaker 1: my face transformed through during that story. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: try not to be that stupid. That's a classic case

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Speaker 1: of a like procrastinated project that ends up with sleep

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Speaker 1: deprivation on a deadline that means you have to do

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Speaker 1: something to get this done and you become a dump

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Speaker 1: dumb don't be like me, kids. Yeah. Yeah, like I said, like,

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Speaker 1: I can totally be like I can see being like

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Speaker 1: this is this is a foolish thing to do, but

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Speaker 1: I'm doing it. But again not with nuclear materials. UM,

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Speaker 1: and I did. Really there was this moment where I

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Speaker 1: was like I had done all of my research. I

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Speaker 1: had a long list of criticality accidents that were just

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Speaker 1: so similar that I was like, why am I doing this?

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Speaker 1: I need some kind of resolution to this because otherwise

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Speaker 1: it's like here's a bunch of incidents that happened, they

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Speaker 1: were bad, and then like what then it? Um. There

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Speaker 1: was one that I debated about whether to include and

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Speaker 1: did not include, and it was Actually one of the

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Speaker 1: reasons that I didn't include it was because it was

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Speaker 1: actually a reactor meltdown, not nearly as massive as something

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Speaker 1: like the Chernobyl disaster, but it was this reactor called

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Speaker 1: the the s L one. It was being brought back

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Speaker 1: online after having been shut down for the holidays at

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Speaker 1: the like the winter holidays, and what seems to have

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Speaker 1: happened is there was a control rod that needed to

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Speaker 1: be gradually and slowly removed, but it was sticky, and

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Speaker 1: they knew it was sticky, and the people managing the

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Speaker 1: facility knew it was sticky, and they had kind of

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Speaker 1: just cobbled together some procedures for how to deal with

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Speaker 1: the sticky control rod. And what it seems like happened

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Speaker 1: is the worker who was trying to pull it out

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Speaker 1: yanked it and pulled it too far too fast, and

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Speaker 1: the entire assembly went critical and it exploded and all

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Speaker 1: three of them were killed. And it was like it

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Speaker 1: had some similarities in terms of, like they're the safety

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Speaker 1: stuff was was not being done, but it was also

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Speaker 1: way more of a like a systemic thing of like

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Speaker 1: number one one control rod was enough to make this

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Speaker 1: whole thing go critical. Number two like the people who

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Speaker 1: were managing these three workers like knew about the stickiness

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Speaker 1: problem and they hadn't found a good way to deal

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Speaker 1: with it. And then yeah, one one of the outcomes

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Speaker 1: from that is that it they then started designing reactors

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Speaker 1: so that you could not cause the whole thing to

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Speaker 1: go supercritical by removing one control rod. My question that

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Speaker 1: I mentioned having during the episode that I would save

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Speaker 1: till now is like, and this is a stupid question.

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Speaker 1: It's not a real question, why would anyone do these jobs? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I I had this question of like, what what knowledge

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Speaker 1: were you gaining from these criticality experiments that was so

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Speaker 1: so important that you were willing to do criticality experiments?

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Speaker 1: I holding radioactive materials with your hands basically, I mean

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Speaker 1: not really, they weren't holding the core, but they were

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Speaker 1: like building stuff around the core with their hands and

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Speaker 1: sometimes sticking a screwdriver in it. Yeah, that's just like

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Speaker 1: what And so like I read some accounts from other

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Speaker 1: nuclear physicists who were like, this was critical research that

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Speaker 1: needed to be done and there wasn't a remote facility

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Speaker 1: to do it yet, so we did it. And I'm

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Speaker 1: still like that seems so bad though, It's like such

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Speaker 1: a bad idea. So anyway, there's a lot about this

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Speaker 1: episode that I feel like it's just unresolved. But um also,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it just it's felt like sort of

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Speaker 1: a maccob kind of horrifying thing that that made a

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Speaker 1: kind of atypical but also interesting October entry. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean right, if it were not for the unfortunate

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Speaker 1: mortality rate involved in all of these stories, any one

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Speaker 1: of them would make a very interesting scary creature invention

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Speaker 1: in story or you know how a superhero gets their

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Speaker 1: power stories. But unfortunately those are fiction, and this is

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Speaker 1: the reality that it's a very dangerous thing to work with. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that the industry, I mean, I have very

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Speaker 1: various wish lists. I wish that nuclear weapons just didn't exist,

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Speaker 1: that that just had never happened. Uh, But since they do,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad that the industry involved with dealing with these

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Speaker 1: materials got better at safety. Yeah, happy Halloween question. One

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Speaker 1: of our episodes this week was an interview that I

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Speaker 1: feel so privileged to have done with Alvin Hall and

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Speaker 1: Janee Wood's Webber about the podcast that they have created

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Speaker 1: called Driving the Green Book. This is one of those

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Speaker 1: podcasts that is a team effort. Alvin was the host

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Speaker 1: and Janey was the so see a producer, and the

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Speaker 1: two of them went on the road trip together. But

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Speaker 1: then they're also like editors and a composer and all

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Speaker 1: these other people whose work went into that show. Um,

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Speaker 1: it is really lovely. I cannot stress that enough. Um.

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Speaker 1: We we got an email from somebody on our marketing

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Speaker 1: team who had gotten an email from another team asking

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Speaker 1: if we were interested in this, and both of us

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Speaker 1: were like, yes, definitely instantly. Yeah. I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: get into this and too much detail during the interview

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Speaker 1: because I really wanted to keep the interview focused on

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Speaker 1: them as much as possible and on their work and

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Speaker 1: not have me having like extended background of our show

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Speaker 1: in the middle of it. But I first heard about

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Speaker 1: the Negro Motorist screen book. At this point, it's been

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Speaker 1: several years ago, and I started trying to work on

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Speaker 1: an episode on it back and probably twenty or fourteen.

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Speaker 1: It was a while back, and at that point there

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Speaker 1: was way less information available than there is now. Um,

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Speaker 1: the New York Public Library I mentioned in the interview,

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Speaker 1: they've digitized something like twenty three years worth of green

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Speaker 1: books that hadn't happened yet. So I had like a

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Speaker 1: partial scan of one copy and a couple of really

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Speaker 1: brief articles, and I was like, I just I don't

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Speaker 1: have enough to make an episode out of this. And

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Speaker 1: then as more as more stuff became available in like

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Speaker 1: the New York Public Library did all those digitizations, and

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Speaker 1: like there was more stuff, then it was more like

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Speaker 1: I just couldn't figure out a great approach to it,

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Speaker 1: because a lot of times when we're talking about historic publications,

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Speaker 1: we read selections from them and talk about them, and

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Speaker 1: that just didn't feel as meaningful when big parts of

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Speaker 1: those publications are sort of like lists of businesses, um,

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Speaker 1: lists of hotels that you could stay at, lists of

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Speaker 1: places to get food. Um. So the fact that they

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Speaker 1: had this idea of going on a road trip and

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Speaker 1: visiting all these people, visiting the places that still are

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Speaker 1: in business, but in some cases just talking to people

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Speaker 1: about the things that they remember, Like, that's that's not

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Speaker 1: something that our show could really support in terms of

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Speaker 1: the way our budget and our timelines and stuff like

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Speaker 1: that work. Um. And it's also just the way, way,

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Speaker 1: way way richer experience than Tracy and Holly read Passages

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Speaker 1: from the Green Book. Yeah, books of lists are fascinating

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Speaker 1: to pour over, not always so fascinating to listen to. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I mean there are longer pieces of text in there,

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Speaker 1: you know, there are introductions that give a lot of

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Speaker 1: context about what was happening in the world at that

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Speaker 1: particular year, and longer descriptions of tourist attractions and things

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Speaker 1: like that. But it's still like the driving the Green

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Speaker 1: Book is a much more meaningful encounter with the Green

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Speaker 1: Book than Passages read than we would have been able

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Speaker 1: to put together. Yeah, for sure, Yeah, for sure. Were

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Speaker 1: there any um moments within that interview that took you

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Speaker 1: by surprise? Yeah? So I had listened to the episodes

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Speaker 1: that were out before going into the interview, and so

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Speaker 1: you know, I knew at least what those first four

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Speaker 1: episodes were about, and I had a sense of questions

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to ask, and I had written all

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Speaker 1: of those down. Um, when we were talking about this

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Speaker 1: is actually a question that I learned when I took

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Speaker 1: a workshop on interviewing at a thing called max Fun Con,

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Speaker 1: which is the Maximum Fun Podcast Networks annual thing that

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Speaker 1: they used to have, and I took this interview workshop

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Speaker 1: with Jesse Thorne, and he was like, I'm gonna tell

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Speaker 1: you a question that could be really great, And the

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Speaker 1: question was like, what did you think this was going

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Speaker 1: to be? Like? How did it turn out? And how

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Speaker 1: did that compare? UM? And that can be a way

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Speaker 1: to really get people thinking about things in an interesting way,

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Speaker 1: and so that has become a question that I asked

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Speaker 1: pretty often. And when I asked it, both Alvin and

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Speaker 1: Janet had totally different responses to it. As you know

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Speaker 1: if you've listened to the episode UM. Janet's was was

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Speaker 1: more like she didn't know as much what to expect

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Speaker 1: because she had not done this before. Alvin had done

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Speaker 1: lots of road trips before. So Alvin's response was very

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Speaker 1: much about the planning and the coordination and making sure

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Speaker 1: they stayed on schedule and that kind of stuff. And

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Speaker 1: I interpreted that in my head as Alvin having a

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Speaker 1: sense going into it of what it was going to

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Speaker 1: be like. And so when I asked the follow up

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Speaker 1: of like how did those two things compare? I focused

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Speaker 1: on Janet. Janet was thinking about it, Alvin said I'm

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Speaker 1: going to say something, and then it turned out Alvin

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Speaker 1: did it came out totally differently from how Alvin was expecting. So,

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Speaker 1: like everyone who was listening to the episode, like you

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Speaker 1: heard that exchange play out. Um, I had totally misinterpreted

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Speaker 1: Alvin's description of the lanning process as um as meaning

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Speaker 1: that it's like it went according to his mental plan

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Speaker 1: and that was not not actually the case. I UM,

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Speaker 1: Like I said, I'm so glad that we got a

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Speaker 1: chance to have them, uh, and that that you know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes one email will lead to great things. So I

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Speaker 1: was really really pleased that conversation started. I think while

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Speaker 1: you were out yes, and then I was like yes

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Speaker 1: from me, and I imagined from Tracy, but let's wait

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Speaker 1: just just in case, um, And of course you were

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Speaker 1: like yes, yes. So it was at that point where

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Speaker 1: you were out. It was just to make everything a

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Speaker 1: little confusing. Yeah, we were having kind of a relay

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Speaker 1: race of podcast at that point where I was out

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Speaker 1: and then you were out and handing the things off

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Speaker 1: to each other. So again, I cannot think Alvin and

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Speaker 1: Janette enough. They were so gracious and so generous and

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Speaker 1: such a pleasure to talk to you. Those are always

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Speaker 1: the most fun interviews when the people that you're talking

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Speaker 1: to are generous, with their time and make wonderful conversation too. Um.

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Speaker 1: I hope folks enjoyed the interview again if you if

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Speaker 1: you have been listening, like oh man, I wish they

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Speaker 1: would say the name of that show again. It is

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Speaker 1: Driving the Green Book. It's available in all the major

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Speaker 1: podcasts things. Give it a listen if you want to

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Speaker 1: write to us. We're a history podcast that I heart

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Speaker 1: radio dot com and you can subscribe to our show

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Speaker 1: on Apple podcast and I heart radio app and anywhere

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Speaker 1: else you get podcasts. Stuff you missed in History Class

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Speaker 1: is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts

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Speaker 1: from I heart Radio, visit the I heart Radio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.