WEBVTT - Questlove Supreme: Ramon Hervey II 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.080 Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:09.600 --> 0:00:12.440 All Right, ladies and gentlemen, this is a Quest Love, 0:00:12.520 --> 0:00:15.000 Quest Love Supreme back on zoom. 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:16.880 Is that a dream that we were actually out in 0:00:16.920 --> 0:00:18.720 the open and uh. 0:00:20.239 --> 0:00:22.239 We saw the world and we saw each other and 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:24.599 we were doing these shows. 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:27.440 In person and everything. 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:30.280 Yeah, man, it was so amazing, like you were there 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:31.960 and you were there and you were there. 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:40.040 It was amazing. I dreamed that Bill was there, you know. Yeah, 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:41.800 it was amazing. No, it was. 0:00:41.880 --> 0:00:44.040 It's good to be back. We're here with the fam. 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:48.000 It's uh, Bill, Steve and my ea. Uh Fonte went 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:49.279 out to get some cigarettes, but. 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:52.040 It's coming back faster this time. 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:56.279 He gives us regards. Let me go a little bit 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:56.840 off the rails. 0:00:56.880 --> 0:00:59.920 This might be quasi lengthy, but I'll say this my 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.560 as a preference to this particular episode. I'm gonna start 0:01:04.600 --> 0:01:08.840 with a quickly personal story, and that story is basically so, 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:11.759 there's a gentleman that's been in my organization. His name 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:15.039 is Silbert MANI and Silbert like the thing about the 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.720 Roots organization is, you know, we work with literally the 0:01:18.760 --> 0:01:23.319 best people and I've had very few terminations. You know, 0:01:23.600 --> 0:01:26.680 thirty years at the helm of this organization. I mean, 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:29.040 some people like move on to do other projects. And 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:32.600 for the most part, I'll say that everyone in my 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:37.360 organization has done superb work and has been you know, 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.960 with us anywhere from ten to thirty years. So when 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:43.200 I say we get the best of the best, we 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.400 get the best. Now, in the case of mister Amani Silbert, 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:49.320 he came to meet with us about potentially being the 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:53.919 new Roots tour manager, and that being a tour manager 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.600 sort of like being the group's father, like what Dave 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.120 Seville is to the chipmunks. That's what a tour manager is, 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.000 to make sure that everything runs smoothly. 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:03.720 And that was the role he was filling in. 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:08.160 And you know, we are a professional organization, and you know, 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:11.560 job interviews are a thing where you know, it's not 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.600 like I'm in an office with a receptionist and a 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.600 coffeemaker or any of those things. But I am very 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:21.000 serious about the tour manager position. And it's also been 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:26.040 a very long time since we've had a male in 0:02:26.080 --> 0:02:27.160 this particular position. 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:28.480 You know, I'll say over. 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:33.119 These thirty years that eighty percent of our organization has 0:02:33.200 --> 0:02:36.119 been run by women. So when sel kind of came 0:02:36.160 --> 0:02:39.240 in this organization, I wanted to come with the hard 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.760 questions and I simply asked him one question. I said, 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:47.400 what do you think you have that qualifies you to 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.919 work in the capacity as tour manager for the Roots 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:56.200 And he said, I've been Public Enemies tour manager for 0:02:56.320 --> 0:03:01.720 fifteen years, one hundred plus shows a year, theaters, clubs, 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:06.119 stadiums worldwide, opening for the biggest rock acts in the world, 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:09.800 like solo dates, all stops in between, he said, and 0:03:09.960 --> 0:03:17.240 never once has Flavor Flav been late or ever missed 0:03:17.680 --> 0:03:20.000 a And before you said the last word, I was like, 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:21.520 you're hired. 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:23.560 That's all I needed to hear. 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:27.000 And you know, when you, as the patron, you go 0:03:27.120 --> 0:03:30.400 to Massive Square Garden to see, you know, a Kendrick 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:33.680 show or whatever. You know, we praise artists and all 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.440 the time, but we never ever get to see how 0:03:37.480 --> 0:03:40.400 the sausage is made. We never, you know, give praise 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.119 to the tour bus driver for getting them there, or 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:46.640 the manager for negotiating the right contract, or even the 0:03:46.680 --> 0:03:48.920 tour manager for getting the act there on time. 0:03:48.960 --> 0:03:50.200 To give you your money's worth. 0:03:50.640 --> 0:03:53.280 So there's a new book has been written by our 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:58.480 guest today called The Fame Game, an insider's playbook for 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.880 earning your fifteen minutes of And for some reason, I 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.600 know that the you're in the title is sort of 0:04:04.720 --> 0:04:09.320 implied to the artist, but I actually think that this 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:15.080 book is meant for anyone who's currently an intern or 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:22.159 an assistant, future manager's, future publicists. This book is almost 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:25.719 it's an important like I was reading it thinking like, oh, 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.160 maybe I could use this when I get job twenty 0:04:28.640 --> 0:04:30.839 to be a manager. 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:31.760 Because you guys know I like. 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:35.000 Okay, So before the rest of Quest of Supreme gets 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:38.840 bored to death with this long ass intro, I will 0:04:38.880 --> 0:04:42.760 just say that our guest today has simply worked with 0:04:43.200 --> 0:04:46.960 the best, and his job is to be the person 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.479 who is behind the scenes that makes sure everything is 0:04:50.520 --> 0:04:53.840 running smoothly. And he's also the person that gets that 0:04:53.880 --> 0:04:57.479 three am phone call when shit hits the fan. Name 0:04:57.520 --> 0:05:01.640 them Quincy Jones, Don Cornelius, her Albert Andre Krauts, Luther Vandros, 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.920 Paul McCartney, Peter Frampton, Nick Nolty, Muhammad Ali, Richard pryor 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:07.560 Bet Mintler. 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:11.760 Like literally, there is no one, Vanessa one I can 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:12.200 name it. 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.400 I apologize for this long ass intro, but I think 0:05:15.440 --> 0:05:18.880 it's really important that I set this up. Please welcome 0:05:18.920 --> 0:05:22.960 to Quest Love Supreme, the one and the Only Supermanager 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:28.200 and Doctor fix It, the one and only Ramone Harvey 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.440 the second on Quest Love Supreme. 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.599 Thank you, And that was really well crafted and it 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:39.000 makes a lot of sense. Well, and I just asked, like, 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:43.040 let me ask the final question first, Yes, what's your secret? 0:05:43.520 --> 0:05:43.880 Ramon? 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.320 To your to being successful at what you what you chose. 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:49.920 To do all these years? 0:05:50.279 --> 0:05:54.760 You add to that, it's more why why would you 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:58.800 want to stress yourself out with this job? You have 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.799 the most dangerous in entertainment. 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:03.200 That's all that. 0:06:03.400 --> 0:06:06.040 My take after finishing the book was why would you 0:06:06.120 --> 0:06:07.839 want to do that? What's your answer? 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:12.120 You know? I think that over the you know, I 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:14.599 kind of fell into it by accident. First of all, 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:19.080 I never really wanted to. I didn't grow up to 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:22.800 be a manager or a publicist. I just I was. 0:06:23.640 --> 0:06:26.280 I was a flight attendant for PanAm Airlines and I 0:06:26.400 --> 0:06:30.240 ended up, you know, flying to London and I lived 0:06:30.240 --> 0:06:32.080 there for four years and that's where I got my 0:06:32.600 --> 0:06:35.840 break in the music industry. And it was quite by accident. 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:40.040 You know, I was dating a singer and her agency 0:06:41.560 --> 0:06:43.520 I got laid off from pan AM and I was 0:06:44.000 --> 0:06:48.080 actually the only black was reporent. You know at that 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:50.679 time PanAm, this was in the mid seventies and PanAm 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.200 didn't have any black people right for the most part, 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:56.280 they had very few and they had no mails. All 0:06:56.360 --> 0:07:01.600 the international airlines like of Tonza of France, British Airways, 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:04.720 they all had men, but there was no men in 0:07:04.760 --> 0:07:08.159 any of the American airlines. So I killed two birds 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:10.680 with one stone, being black and being a male, and 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:15.160 that's why I got hired. And in fact, I always 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.600 tell a funny story that we had. I had a 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:20.960 huge afro and I used to have to pad it 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:25.760 down because we had a three inch maximum from the 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:28.720 from the top of your head to the to the 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:32.480 outskirts of your wherever your opera reached. So I used 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:34.400 to pad it down, put water on, you know. 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.600 If you want eighties dippity do was like your best. 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:45.080 Yeah, yeah, right right, well afro sein, whatever the whatever 0:07:45.160 --> 0:07:49.360 you could do. When I got over there and this 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:52.160 this opportunity to work at this talent agency came up, 0:07:52.840 --> 0:07:57.640 I just found that I had a certain understanding of 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:01.680 I interacted well with the artist I worked with Bay 0:08:01.720 --> 0:08:06.600 City Rollers over there with this agency called Starlight Artist 0:08:06.680 --> 0:08:10.280 and I work with a group called Marmalade. Bay City 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:12.520 Rollers were supposed to be like the next Beatles at 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.800 the time, but a lot of people don't realize they 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.559 actually didn't sing on their records. There was two guys 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:21.000 named Bill Coulter and Bill uh Bill Martin and Phil 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:25.760 Culture who produced and wrote two records for the Bay 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:28.880 Rollers and they got him on top of the Pops whatever. 0:08:28.920 --> 0:08:31.760 But they in those days you could you could lip sync, 0:08:32.320 --> 0:08:34.880 so they never had to sing and they actually got 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.440 you know, the first album was huge and they never 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:40.840 really performed. Almost everything they did was lip sync. 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:42.640 Are you are you disappointed? Steve? 0:08:43.120 --> 0:08:45.480 I'm literally about to jump out the window right now. 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:47.800 I'm a big Bay City Rollers fan. 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:51.440 Yeah, well, I'm sorry to bust your bubble. But no, 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:57.240 they didn't. They didn't. It was all done by session singers, Steve. Yeah, 0:08:57.240 --> 0:09:00.120 they were before Milli Villin did the whole thing. So well. 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.720 The second record was actually done after they got successful 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.480 in the first record, they got kind of full of 0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:09.480 themselves and they said, hey, we don't want to do 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.719 a we don't want to use these guys, so they 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.640 fired them and they those guys went and got five 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:19.439 new faces, some English guys named Kenny, and that was 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:21.800 one of the groups that I worked with over there. 0:09:21.880 --> 0:09:24.840 And then also I got to work as an editor 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:27.520 for a couple of music magazines. So I just had 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:32.359 a sense of that music was maybe in my destiny, 0:09:32.679 --> 0:09:35.319 you know, of relating to artists. 0:09:35.160 --> 0:09:38.280 And but win Ramon because you were a flight attendant first, 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:40.600 but before attend and then I. 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:41.320 Got laid off. 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:46.160 What year was it that you did your time in London. 0:09:46.280 --> 0:09:49.240 From nineteen seventy three to nineteen seventy seven. 0:09:49.679 --> 0:09:51.280 Oh wow, okay, so. 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:55.520 You know the music scene was really vibrant then Bowie 0:09:55.760 --> 0:10:00.080 and uh you know Alvin Stardust and Gary Glitter and 0:10:00.360 --> 0:10:04.600 I mean, you know the Rolling Stones. I remember seeing 0:10:05.000 --> 0:10:07.760 the first time I saw Billy Preston. He opened for 0:10:07.880 --> 0:10:11.840 the Rolling Stones at Wimbley. That was in the seventies 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:13.640 and he was just incredible. I thought he blew him 0:10:13.640 --> 0:10:16.200 off the stage, to be honest. But there was just 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:18.319 it was just a hotbed of music. I mean I 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:19.800 got to see some of the best, you know. I 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.000 saw Elton John at the peak of his career back 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:28.760 then at the was the Rain it's one of the 0:10:28.760 --> 0:10:33.120 most famous concert halls in London. I forget the name. 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:34.480 It begins with a R. 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:36.560 Royal Albert Hall, Royal Albert Hall. 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:40.280 Yeah, Royal Oberoll. And he was just he was amazing. 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:42.800 Well, first, I'm fascinated. 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.920 I know that because of your pan Am experience, Like 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:47.840 you go back and forth to London a lot. 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:49.400 But it's just so. 0:10:50.360 --> 0:10:51.280 No, I was based there. 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:53.760 I lived there for that whole time, right, But you 0:10:54.040 --> 0:10:55.480 didn't get to pick it. He didn't even get to 0:10:55.480 --> 0:10:56.679 picket it. You didn't even know you were going to 0:10:56.760 --> 0:10:58.319 be there. Because people don't know that part about me 0:10:58.440 --> 0:10:59.760 to fight. It's in there, right, They just said go. 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:03.800 Well, we had three bases to choose from. It was Washington, 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.040 d C, Boston or London, and I was one. I 0:11:07.080 --> 0:11:10.400 was the only guy and four women who got picked 0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:11.200 to go to London. 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:13.440 Where were you born? First of all, I. 0:11:13.360 --> 0:11:16.480 Was born in Chicago, Illinois, and I was My dad 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:18.680 was in the service, so we moved around a lot. 0:11:18.760 --> 0:11:26.400 I went to elementary school in Springfield, mass and then 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.360 he got transferred to VanderBurg Air Force Base. I went 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:32.319 to junior high school up in Lompo, California, which is 0:11:32.360 --> 0:11:36.480 about sixty miles inland from Santa Barbara, and I went 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.240 to junior high school and high school there. Then I 0:11:39.280 --> 0:11:42.160 went to Vidio College and you know, just a little 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:47.120 bit east of northeast of LA and got my undergraduate there. 0:11:47.960 --> 0:11:51.080 Really went to school to be a lawyer. And then 0:11:51.440 --> 0:11:54.920 a friend of mine, actually Sheryl Boone Isaacs, who used 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:59.640 to be president president of the Academy Motion Picture of 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:02.560 Arts and Sciences. Yeah, she was the first black woman 0:12:02.640 --> 0:12:05.280 to do that. We we actually I met her in 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.560 college and she was from Springfield as well, and she 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:12.200 got a job with pan AM and that's how I 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:14.720 ended up. She said, hey, you know you should you 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.160 should apply for pan and they're looking for black men. 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:20.040 And I said really, and I said, and she had 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:22.520 already been doing it for a year. So I said, 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:24.480 all right, I'll applay. What the heck, you know, I 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:27.600 wanted to travel anyway, sure if I wanted to continue 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:31.800 my education. And so it was really from her that 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.400 I got the tip that they were even hiring. And 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.920 then I finally got you know, I got hired. And 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:43.560 that's that's It took six months process reinterviews or some 0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:48.040 screening process and and they want to know. At that time, 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.600 my offer was even bigger. They said, you know, would 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:53.280 you be willing to cut your appro and I said, well, no, 0:12:53.280 --> 0:12:54.679 not for you just to see it, but if you 0:12:54.800 --> 0:13:00.800 hire me. Yeah. But yeah, So that's how that's how 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.120 I ended up going over there. 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:08.600 To make a move that bold, especially that early. I mean, okay, 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:13.040 it's five years after what I consider the the civil 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.199 rights period of the sixties, which you know, most people 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.040 look at nineteen sixty eight is sort of like a 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:21.040 seminal year where a lot of revolutionary changes happened. But 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:27.200 what I mean the difference between what you did and 0:13:27.280 --> 0:13:30.000 the difference between a lot of the artists that you represent. 0:13:30.720 --> 0:13:33.440 Like as an artist, the first thing that entered my 0:13:33.520 --> 0:13:37.199 head was like, oh, fear, like I'm going to be 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:39.440 safe and da da da da, this is too risky. 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:40.280 Why would I do that? 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.240 Like that's it's very unusual, like for at least I 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:48.240 don't know many black men are thinking international, or that 0:13:48.400 --> 0:13:51.960 they could have a space in someplace that's not the 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.720 United States, you know, But what was it generally about 0:13:55.760 --> 0:14:03.400 you that thought bigger, more international, thought that you could 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:06.840 handle this Because for me, like this is something that 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:08.520 only white people would do and not. 0:14:09.040 --> 0:14:12.600 I always had a feeling of wanting to be adventurous 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:16.480 and try try new things, try something you know, different 0:14:16.520 --> 0:14:18.800 that hadn't been done before. You know, nobody in my 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.640 family had really traveled. I'd only been on an airplane, 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:26.840 like from from LA to San Francisco. I'd never even 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.360 traveled from one coast to the other, you know, because 0:14:30.400 --> 0:14:33.120 when we came cross country over in a car and 0:14:33.720 --> 0:14:36.960 one of those little tent things that you you prop up, 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:39.680 it looks like a trailer. It's like on the top 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:41.960 of a car. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a tent that 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:45.680 you build up. And that's how you know, that's how 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:51.000 we ended up coming Springfield to east to west. 0:14:51.360 --> 0:14:54.560 So that was your first time flying, you doing the 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:55.040 pan Am. 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:57.680 Yeah, yeah, it was my first time flying. When I 0:14:57.720 --> 0:15:01.360 went and training and I was nervous. I wasn't nervous 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.600 about from inside in terms of like I felt I 0:15:04.640 --> 0:15:07.520 could I could figure out whatever, you know. I just 0:15:07.560 --> 0:15:10.920 thought I'd always wanted to travel, see the world and 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.640 just get out of the context of just being a 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:17.720 black man in the US. That I felt like in 0:15:17.760 --> 0:15:20.360 those times, everyone that that's all they ever talked to 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.840 you about was you know, it was a black, white thing, 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:25.120 and I wanted to see what the if I would 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.400 be perceived differently in another part of the world, or 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.040 you know what, I would maybe would anyone even look 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:32.320 at me as being an American? 0:15:32.720 --> 0:15:35.800 Could you just talk about just generally, well, now that 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.760 you are a professional and you are renown like a 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:44.760 world traveler, whatnot? What are the basic differences that you 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.920 could say were in London at the time when you 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:51.720 first lived there, as opposed to now where it's kind 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.000 of like, you know, the Internet has sort of colonized 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:59.080 the world, where there's Starbucks everywhere, a seven to eleven everywhere, 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.320 a KFC Donald's every you know, you get the same 0:16:03.880 --> 0:16:06.800 J cole record around the world at the same time. 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:11.320 But for you, in general, what were the most What's 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.600 what's the difference in how your life was first living 0:16:14.640 --> 0:16:16.360 there as opposed to how it is now. 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.640 I think the biggest difference was, well, two things that 0:16:20.680 --> 0:16:23.960 I noticed right off the bat. One is that, for 0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:25.800 the very first time in my whole life that I 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:29.080 could recall, I was in a pub and somebody asked 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:31.680 me what it was like to be in American and 0:16:31.720 --> 0:16:35.560 I went, geez, no one's ever asked me that question. 0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:37.680 They only ever asked me what it's like to be black. 0:16:37.760 --> 0:16:39.560 I need to really think about that for a second, 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.240 because I don't I've never really thought of myself as 0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.640 an American, to be honest, you know, that was like 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.560 a big question, and that that was you know, that 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.080 was part of the process of wanting to go there 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.480 in the first place, is to see how I would 0:16:52.520 --> 0:16:55.080 be viewed. And so there was that part. But then 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:58.480 on the black side, they they were a little bit 0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:01.960 behind our civil rights movement at the time, so they 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:06.199 they didn't really see themselves. They just saw themselves as 0:17:06.240 --> 0:17:09.800 being English. And I remember asking a guy what's it 0:17:09.920 --> 0:17:12.040 like to be what's it like to be black? And 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.720 this in the you know, in England, because the voices 0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.040 are different, the inflection they speak English like English people, 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:21.280 you know, it's a little bit different than us, you know, 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:24.879 and you have colloquialism and throughout different parts of you know, 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:27.720 depending if you're on the East coast, west coast, you know, 0:17:27.760 --> 0:17:31.640 but we're basically speaking a little bit different vibe than 0:17:31.920 --> 0:17:36.000 the way the English spoke. And so but they kind 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:39.640 of resented the idea that I was looking at them 0:17:39.720 --> 0:17:43.920 as being anything other than English, and I thought, weird. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:46.520 I just wow, So you just you just consider yourself 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.720 to be English equal. I mean, it doesn't really work 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:52.840 that way in the States, but but you know, more 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:54.639 power to you if that's the way it works, you know. 0:17:54.680 --> 0:17:57.200 And this was very early on in the Inbratic days 0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:00.840 of me being there and just getting adjusted to, you know, 0:18:01.000 --> 0:18:04.520 being in a place where it's the majority. You know. 0:18:04.920 --> 0:18:07.920 The one thing about England that's that makes it easier 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.000 and more accessible for black people or American people is 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:14.840 it is English. You are speaking English. It is their language, 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:17.560 although it is totally different. Like when I was an editor, 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.840 I had to learn to spell every everything different because 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:25.719 they don't pronounce everything the same as we do. You know, 0:18:25.840 --> 0:18:28.560 Like there's a I remember that one of the silliest 0:18:28.600 --> 0:18:31.400 things I was going to in a movie theater. They 0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.080 call it the cinema over there. And one of the 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:43.600 most famous squares in England is Less Square. That's that's 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:46.040 where they have all the big theaters. But it's spelled 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.840 l E I C E S t R. So I 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:51.760 get into cab and the guy goes, well, where are 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:57.720 you going? I said, I'm going to Leicester Square? I 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.679 never heard of Leicester Square. That's what do you mean? 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:02.600 You never heard of license Is Square? I mean, like, 0:19:02.640 --> 0:19:05.439 how long you've been driving a cat? So I've been 0:19:05.480 --> 0:19:08.840 driving a cab for like thirty years. And I said, well, 0:19:08.840 --> 0:19:11.360 it's the you know, it's the square, you know, Licenses 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.640 Square where all the theaters are. Really, you know, it's 0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.000 all where all your big cinemas are, and you know theaters. 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:22.440 He goes, oh, oh, you mean Leicester Square. And I said, 0:19:22.520 --> 0:19:25.000 Leicester Square, that's how you say it. And I said, well, 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:26.879 in the stage we would spell that, you know, l 0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:28.880 E S T E R, So why ain't I spell 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:30.640 it that way? You know, I just had to learn 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.600 all kinds of different spellings and stuff like that. You know, 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:36.639 it was also still easier than like, say, you know, 0:19:36.680 --> 0:19:40.520 my second language was French, but it was still easier 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.120 to do that than to go to Paris and try 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:46.600 to speak French, because they really had a snooty attitude 0:19:46.600 --> 0:19:50.240 about Americans trying to speak French exactly. We immediately thought, 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.920 you were, you know, persecuting their language. 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:55.399 You know, the only language I ever learned to alon. 0:19:55.640 --> 0:20:03.600 I understand you speak her like on her. 0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.840 Like, you know, and that's another comment from Bill. 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:09.920 I mean, I'm an American. I learned a lesson. I 0:20:10.080 --> 0:20:11.359 learned the language in school. 0:20:11.880 --> 0:20:12.600 What do y'all say? 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:16.640 Time out? Time? Yeah? Steve, yes? 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:22.199 I do you have twenty copies of the Basity Rollers 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:22.919 first album? 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:26.160 Behind You? Oh? That was such a love joke. That's 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.240 been up there for like ten to fifteen minutes. No 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:31.360 one said ship. Finally, that was a love joke. 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:33.120 It's been sitting at a hole. I didn't even see 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:33.760 he did him do that? 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:39.560 Like dog? Why do you have twenty copies of this record? 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:43.320 Well, first of all, it's Mark thirty and I've probably 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:45.640 owned about one hundred copies of this and I give 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:47.800 them away. It's I buy it every time I see it. 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.840 So is this the the album you're referring to? It's 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:52.720 like I believe it's like the first America. 0:20:52.800 --> 0:20:55.400 Yeah, that's the that's the first one. In fact, they 0:20:55.520 --> 0:21:00.240 really because of that problem with the producers. You know, 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:03.480 the one show that everyone broke on and during those 0:21:03.560 --> 0:21:05.520 days was Top of the Pops, which was one of 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:09.639 the most influencial music shows ever. Yeah, in any you know, 0:21:09.680 --> 0:21:12.040 in any country that I know of, I mean, you 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:15.520 could really break and keep sustaining a career just being 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.639 on Top of the Pops. But they changed the ruling 0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:21.159 and you had to start singing live track on the 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:24.240 show because of that, because they weren't the only ones 0:21:24.240 --> 0:21:27.080 that were doing that, and so the unions and everything 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:31.320 started complaining. They switched the procedures so that you couldn't 0:21:31.359 --> 0:21:33.280 lip sync on Top of the Pops. But for the 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.920 first ten years I think that the show existed, you could. 0:21:37.400 --> 0:21:38.880 It was always lip syncing. 0:21:38.960 --> 0:21:41.440 Right, well, I understand that they were lip syncing, but 0:21:41.440 --> 0:21:44.040 but you're are you suggesting or did you suggest that 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:48.760 they had session singers in the making of the albums. 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:54.520 Them making their first album was completely written recorded by 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:55.760 session singers. 0:21:56.040 --> 0:21:58.919 You've been had, Steve, Yeah, all right, well you were 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:00.760 in our life, Thank you, talk to you. 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.199 And again they had they had two records recorded and 0:22:07.240 --> 0:22:10.359 they just put that. They put other guys together and 0:22:10.400 --> 0:22:12.679 they used the exact same you know, they made a 0:22:12.680 --> 0:22:15.040 few tweaks in the record in the second record that 0:22:15.040 --> 0:22:17.200 would have been the Bay City Roller second record. So 0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:18.320 very sorry. 0:22:20.240 --> 0:22:24.280 Ramona's right, that rule is actually what say the roots 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:29.080 life only because the French version of that show, we 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:31.800 had a situation and I explained it before where de 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:36.760 Bratt was a guest on the show and uh, she 0:22:36.840 --> 0:22:39.000 wanted to lip sing her song and they're like, no, 0:22:39.119 --> 0:22:42.040 you have to do it live to track, and she 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:45.360 called an attitude, walked off the show and we got 0:22:45.359 --> 0:22:47.239 the call that you know, could you fill in her 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:51.280 eighteen minutes? And this is you know, long story short. 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:55.640 The next day, like the Roots could suddenly go from 0:22:55.720 --> 0:23:00.800 playing Alicia MoMA over in Paris to play like the Zenith, 0:23:00.960 --> 0:23:04.480 like their version of Madison Square Garden. So you're right, 0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:07.320 like some of those shows are like that where you 0:23:07.400 --> 0:23:11.480 have to sing it. Even if it's too can track, 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:13.159 you still have to sing live to it. 0:23:13.359 --> 0:23:17.680 And so well, whoever whoever sang on this record, it's 0:23:18.119 --> 0:23:18.919 it's incredible. 0:23:19.119 --> 0:23:21.640 We get them. 0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:24.760 Yeah, but but okay. 0:23:24.800 --> 0:23:26.440 I'm pretty old. Now. 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:31.000 Well let's less mccau less McKowen I think was his name, 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:32.040 lead singer. 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:33.760 He passed way recently? 0:23:34.600 --> 0:23:35.080 Oh did he? 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:44.159 Yeah? I did not know that. Wow. I would like 0:23:44.240 --> 0:23:44.560 to know. 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:51.760 What do you consider the first step, the first step 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:58.920 into your career path, Like how do you start inching 0:23:58.960 --> 0:24:00.399 towards the entertainment business. 0:24:02.800 --> 0:24:05.359 I think the first step was that working for that 0:24:05.440 --> 0:24:11.680 talent agency in London, Starlight Artists, and uh so then 0:24:11.720 --> 0:24:14.040 I had I had been there for almost four years. 0:24:14.119 --> 0:24:16.320 I had to make a decision whether to stay there 0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:20.439 and become British more or less or come back to 0:24:20.480 --> 0:24:25.120 the States, and I really didn't want to be Uh 0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:27.280 there was a chance I could get hired back at 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:29.480 pan Am, but I felt like my time up there 0:24:30.400 --> 0:24:34.560 with PanAm had kind of, uh was over. I mean, 0:24:34.600 --> 0:24:36.480 you know, I used to tell people I'm a I'm 0:24:36.480 --> 0:24:38.280 a waiter in the sky because you know, I had 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:41.359 a college degree. R all I was doing was I 0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:43.159 was really just a waiter to just do it on 0:24:43.200 --> 0:24:45.719 a plane instead I had in a restaurant, And I 0:24:45.760 --> 0:24:47.520 just felt like I didn't go to college just to 0:24:47.960 --> 0:24:49.680 do that job. Even though it was a lot of fun. 0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:52.239 I got to see the world, and uh it was 0:24:52.280 --> 0:24:53.879 it was great. So when I came back to the 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:57.600 States and I decided I wanted to continue to work, 0:24:57.960 --> 0:25:01.159 you know, in the entertain business. But I had been 0:25:01.200 --> 0:25:05.000 an editor of those two magazines. They were both pop 0:25:05.200 --> 0:25:08.359 zine magazines. One was called Poster and one was called Superstar, 0:25:08.840 --> 0:25:11.639 And I was the only I wrote the whole damn magazine. 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:13.600 But I told the guys, I said, you know, if 0:25:13.600 --> 0:25:15.600 you really want to make we have to make it 0:25:15.600 --> 0:25:18.560 look like we're a bigger operation, right, And I don't 0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:20.200 you know, I don't want to have the only name. 0:25:20.320 --> 0:25:22.680 And uh, you know, so what if you don't have 0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:25.680 a problem, I like to make up some names of 0:25:25.720 --> 0:25:29.040 other writers. I'll still write it and I'll try to 0:25:29.040 --> 0:25:31.119 write a little bit different, sort of feel like we 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:31.880 have a staff. 0:25:32.200 --> 0:25:34.920 So you were basically what Cynthia Horner was to write 0:25:34.960 --> 0:25:36.400 on magazine, Yes. 0:25:36.320 --> 0:25:39.400 Exactly, only she was really the only and she didn't care. 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:41.760 I cared. I didn't want to be the only person. 0:25:42.040 --> 0:25:44.440 But yeah, Cynthia Horner. Wow, that's a flashback. 0:25:44.880 --> 0:25:47.240 Yeah, that's my dream interview. 0:25:47.440 --> 0:25:50.600 And you know, she's very shy about coming on on 0:25:50.680 --> 0:25:53.600 this podcast, and I think she just thinks, like, no 0:25:53.640 --> 0:25:55.480 one knows who I am and that's not big of 0:25:55.520 --> 0:25:55.880 a deal. 0:25:55.920 --> 0:25:59.000 But this is this is literally the platform. 0:25:59.200 --> 0:26:01.680 Oh yeah, no, she You know, when you start off 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:04.600 in the entertainment business in black press or whatever, everyone 0:26:04.800 --> 0:26:05.960 who sent your Horner. 0:26:05.800 --> 0:26:07.600 Was right, you got to go through her first. 0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:10.040 Yeah. She was one of the you know, right on 0:26:10.240 --> 0:26:12.240 was one of the top magazines for you to get 0:26:12.280 --> 0:26:13.959 exposure in if you're a black artist. 0:26:14.200 --> 0:26:17.159 Yeah, So coming back to the States, how much of 0:26:17.160 --> 0:26:21.320 a culture shock was it for you, because I mean 0:26:21.560 --> 0:26:26.800 you're living in London and a key period of development 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:30.119 the United States, you know, like the Nixon period. 0:26:31.880 --> 0:26:34.560 You know, went to college, you know Nixon's college. I 0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:37.920 went to Nixon's college. That was far college. That's where 0:26:37.960 --> 0:26:41.800 he was. Yeah, he went to Wilier College and all. 0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:44.479 They also said that he was from Whittier, but he 0:26:44.560 --> 0:26:47.320 wasn't from whitty He was from Laura Belinda. He was 0:26:47.320 --> 0:26:50.120 born there and he went through he went through the 0:26:50.119 --> 0:26:54.400 Widio school system, but he didn't actually, he wasn't a resident. 0:26:54.720 --> 0:26:57.439 So when all the ship hit the fan, they pretty 0:26:57.480 --> 0:27:00.600 much they had a sign saying welcome to right down 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:04.920 their main street was Greenleaf Avenue, Welcome to President Nixon's hometown. 0:27:05.280 --> 0:27:08.640 And then when when Watergate happened, they made a tour 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:13.400 the science they said, well they went on the whole 0:27:13.440 --> 0:27:16.320 campaign really to disown him, and they said, no, he's 0:27:16.320 --> 0:27:19.240 not really from here. You know, he's from Ladover, Linda. 0:27:19.880 --> 0:27:23.720 But he was really adopted by videos. That was a funny. 0:27:24.119 --> 0:27:26.480 So it was it was how much of a. 0:27:26.640 --> 0:27:30.080 It was a big culture shock because, for one, you know, 0:27:30.119 --> 0:27:32.800 the music was really different I had. I wasn't really 0:27:32.840 --> 0:27:36.040 in tune with all the music that was going on 0:27:36.119 --> 0:27:38.280 in the States. Then, you know, four years is a big, 0:27:38.960 --> 0:27:43.080 you know, vacuum of time to lose connection with your roots. 0:27:43.320 --> 0:27:46.080 And one of the first groups that I fell in 0:27:46.080 --> 0:27:51.879 love with when I came back was Brothers Johnson and 0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:54.880 the song get the Funk Out the Face Right. And 0:27:54.960 --> 0:27:57.000 but when I listened to it on the radio the 0:27:57.040 --> 0:27:59.600 first time I heard it, and I had a British 0:27:59.640 --> 0:28:02.240 accent that I didn't even try to. I didn't realize 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:03.879 it until I got back. And you know, some of 0:28:03.960 --> 0:28:06.359 my friend, well, what's up with you, bro? What this 0:28:06.640 --> 0:28:08.879 voice you got? And you know I was calling things 0:28:08.880 --> 0:28:11.399 petro instead of gas. There's just little things that you 0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:14.040 learn just from you know, being in one place for 0:28:14.040 --> 0:28:16.600 four years, you know, and I had to re turn 0:28:16.680 --> 0:28:19.400 that stuff off and readjust it. And also I drove 0:28:19.440 --> 0:28:22.119 on the wrong side of the street and you know, 0:28:22.240 --> 0:28:25.280 one time in LA because I was used to driving, 0:28:25.320 --> 0:28:27.040 and I was in the car with my sister and 0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:30.359 she she says, hey, you know, I don't want to 0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:32.480 scare you, but you drive on the wrong side. It 0:28:32.520 --> 0:28:35.280 is too course, yes, you know, had to turn you know, 0:28:35.320 --> 0:28:38.480 so little things like that. But I thought that the 0:28:38.520 --> 0:28:41.760 song said get the fuck out my face, right, And 0:28:41.840 --> 0:28:43.880 I called her friend. I said, wow, man, music has 0:28:43.960 --> 0:28:46.320 really changed here. Like a lady. You're like, no, you 0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:49.080 can say fuck on the radio station. Go no, man, 0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:51.600 They're not saying that. They're saying funk. And I go, oh, 0:28:51.640 --> 0:28:53.719 get the front. Okay, I got I gotta got it, 0:28:53.720 --> 0:28:55.760 you know. But I mean a lot of things had 0:28:55.960 --> 0:28:59.680 had changed, and uh, I got luck, very lucky. I was. 0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:03.320 I literally was working in a photo mat booth when 0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:07.920 of those little yellow yeah, yeah, one of those little huts. 0:29:08.160 --> 0:29:08.480 It was. 0:29:08.960 --> 0:29:12.160 It was in the hood and on Rodeo uh uh 0:29:12.200 --> 0:29:15.800 and off Crenshaw It's right next to a Pioneer Chicken. 0:29:16.160 --> 0:29:18.040 And I was, you know, I came back. I didn't 0:29:18.080 --> 0:29:19.960 come back with a lot of money or whatever. So 0:29:20.000 --> 0:29:23.040 I just got a part time job. Because that that job, 0:29:23.360 --> 0:29:25.280 I could work from three to eight and I could 0:29:25.280 --> 0:29:26.920 look for a real job during the day. And I 0:29:26.960 --> 0:29:29.120 was trying to be a writer. I was applying to 0:29:29.200 --> 0:29:32.800 Rolling Stone through Benfunctories and trying to you know, but 0:29:32.840 --> 0:29:35.040 everything was on spec. Everybody said, well, you know the 0:29:35.120 --> 0:29:37.000 way we do it here, and I said, well, I 0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:39.720 need some money. So I found this job, and I said, 0:29:39.800 --> 0:29:41.920 you know, I figured I'd only worked there for a 0:29:41.920 --> 0:29:44.520 couple of weeks, which is what happened. I only worked 0:29:44.520 --> 0:29:45.920 there for a couple of weeks. But it was one 0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:49.160 of those crazy jobs where people they were it was 0:29:49.200 --> 0:29:53.680 always getting robbed, and they had women there all before me. 0:29:53.880 --> 0:29:56.000 So they hired me because they thought it would be 0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:59.480 more you know, I'd be more intimidating, and they I 0:29:59.480 --> 0:30:01.480 don't know why people would want to rob the photo 0:30:01.480 --> 0:30:02.920 map booth. There's not a lot of money. 0:30:03.280 --> 0:30:04.240 Wait, CA explain this. 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:07.520 To me because I was way too young. But like 0:30:07.920 --> 0:30:10.920 photo mat is, those booths were literally like the size 0:30:10.960 --> 0:30:12.760 of telephone booths, right, Yeah. 0:30:12.760 --> 0:30:15.000 I could barely fit in it. I mean every time 0:30:15.040 --> 0:30:17.880 I moved, I knocked something over my knees or something. 0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:20.120 You know there was but it was like just an 0:30:20.160 --> 0:30:20.880 easy job. 0:30:21.080 --> 0:30:23.280 You know, you would just take the photos or like, 0:30:23.800 --> 0:30:26.280 would you have to process the photos too? No? 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:31.080 What It's basically drop off the driveway. So people would 0:30:31.120 --> 0:30:33.920 come in, they would bring their film and then I'd 0:30:33.920 --> 0:30:35.640 give them a receipt and put it in and then 0:30:35.640 --> 0:30:38.440 when the film came, delivery truck would come by and 0:30:38.520 --> 0:30:41.360 drop off the process films. So all I was was 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:45.200 a cashier and you know, exchanging film, collecting film, and 0:30:45.200 --> 0:30:47.080 then giving people their photos. 0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:51.280 After Back to the Future stopped seeing those photo Yeah, they. 0:30:51.160 --> 0:30:54.760 Were around for a while, you know. And so and 0:30:54.840 --> 0:30:57.000 I remember one time guy calls me up and says, hey, 0:30:57.040 --> 0:31:00.920 we're gonna come down and rob rob the place. Go okay, 0:31:01.000 --> 0:31:03.239 well thanks for the head up. What's up, you know? 0:31:03.320 --> 0:31:06.680 And I went to I went and sat in Pioneered Chicken. 0:31:06.760 --> 0:31:09.320 I called the manager. I said, hey, man, uh, these 0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:11.720 guys I got to calls they're going to rob the place. 0:31:11.840 --> 0:31:13.640 I'm gonna sit in here for a few minutes and 0:31:13.640 --> 0:31:16.120 see if anyone comes by. If they don't, I'll go 0:31:16.200 --> 0:31:16.800 back in the head. 0:31:16.880 --> 0:31:20.320 You know, Oh my god, this it was this crazy. 0:31:20.440 --> 0:31:22.800 Now, that was really culture shock, you know, coming from 0:31:22.840 --> 0:31:25.960 because I had I had not really lived, uh in 0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:28.160 a black area like that. I wasn't raised in that 0:31:28.240 --> 0:31:30.560 area and that was an all black ghetto areas, so 0:31:31.640 --> 0:31:34.480 that was a difference from living in London. So it 0:31:34.560 --> 0:31:36.520 was a cultural shock on many levels. But it was 0:31:36.800 --> 0:31:41.240 while I was working in there a photographer named Bruce Tolloman. 0:31:41.280 --> 0:31:45.600 I don't know if you've heard. Yeah, so Bruce Jackson's. 0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:48.920 And yeah, Parliament you know Bruce Tolloman. 0:31:48.680 --> 0:31:51.720 Yeah, Bruce. Bruce also went to Whittier College. 0:31:52.240 --> 0:31:55.160 So legend legendary photographer, like. 0:31:55.280 --> 0:31:58.400 Yeah, legendary, you know. And he worked for He's got 0:31:58.440 --> 0:32:00.360 a great book out too, a great cop the table 0:32:00.360 --> 0:32:01.800 Book at if you haven't seen it. 0:32:01.960 --> 0:32:04.080 I got that for someone gave it to me for 0:32:04.120 --> 0:32:07.160 my fiftieth birthday, and he was kind of up to 0:32:07.200 --> 0:32:07.800 sign it for me. 0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:10.440 Yeah, and he's, uh, you know, he's been he's had 0:32:10.480 --> 0:32:14.800 a really stellar career and he heard that. I saw 0:32:14.920 --> 0:32:19.400 his name in the staff for Soul Magazine with Gennys 0:32:19.440 --> 0:32:22.120 Jones Soul Magazine because I was going to try to 0:32:22.120 --> 0:32:25.000 write for that, and then I saw Bruce and I 0:32:25.160 --> 0:32:27.160 so I called him up and said, hey, Bruce Man, 0:32:27.160 --> 0:32:28.880 how are you doing. I see you're like a photographer, 0:32:28.920 --> 0:32:32.800 blah blah blah. I'm trying to get into business here. 0:32:33.040 --> 0:32:36.840 And so he said, well, you know, I know, I 0:32:36.840 --> 0:32:40.400 think somebody at this guy Bob Jones at Motown, who 0:32:40.480 --> 0:32:43.520 is the black publicist there at the time. He's looking 0:32:43.600 --> 0:32:45.800 for I think he's looking for an assistant. Would you 0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:49.160 be interested? I said, yeah, sure, you know, have him 0:32:49.200 --> 0:32:51.840 call me, you know, or I'll call him whatever. And 0:32:51.920 --> 0:32:54.760 Bob Jones called called me while I was working at 0:32:54.800 --> 0:32:58.000 PHOTOO Photo my boot and he said, Hey, would you 0:32:58.080 --> 0:33:03.160 like to come in and interview for a junior publicist 0:33:03.160 --> 0:33:06.240 position at Motown? And Motown had just moved from Detroit 0:33:06.680 --> 0:33:11.640 and they were based. They moved into the CNN building 0:33:11.680 --> 0:33:13.840 on Sunset. 0:33:13.320 --> 0:33:15.280 That's where their first This was seventy seven. 0:33:16.160 --> 0:33:19.200 Uh yeah, this was seventy seven, and they moved to 0:33:19.640 --> 0:33:24.600 they moved out of Detroit to Hollywood for the first time. 0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:28.600 You got to explain something to me, what is the 0:33:28.720 --> 0:33:36.840 What was the role of Iris Gordy, because you know, 0:33:37.640 --> 0:33:41.120 coming of age and being a fan of like High 0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:46.400 Energy Switch, just a lot of those Lovesmith, like a 0:33:46.400 --> 0:33:52.040 lot of those seventies Motown groups and even Apollo. You know, 0:33:52.680 --> 0:33:54.479 they would often go on soul training. I would hear 0:33:54.560 --> 0:33:59.160 Don talk about Iris Gordy. What was Iris's role in 0:34:00.200 --> 0:34:02.040 the mid seventies period of Motel. 0:34:03.320 --> 0:34:05.480 I think she's more or less in A and R 0:34:06.080 --> 0:34:07.000 artist development. 0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:11.720 I'm still wrestling with the fact that you have thirty. 0:34:12.120 --> 0:34:13.879 Dude, you know I got I got the I got 0:34:13.920 --> 0:34:17.240 like the Spanish forty five of you got a whole Saturday, 0:34:17.480 --> 0:34:19.480 Like you don't understand what's going on over here. 0:34:19.600 --> 0:34:22.719 Your back all of all, we've been we've been doing 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:27.800 this for just six years now, Steve, You've totally outdone yourself. 0:34:28.160 --> 0:34:29.960 But it looks like a it looks like a filter, 0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:32.719 but it's not. It's actually Steve forty copies of the 0:34:32.719 --> 0:34:35.520 Basic Roller. I'm sorry. 0:34:35.600 --> 0:34:38.360 I mean, people got to check out this record for 0:34:38.600 --> 0:34:40.400 even my dream interview. 0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:43.560 I'm still like I'm right now. It's it's taking a 0:34:43.640 --> 0:34:45.320 lot of rint space in my head. 0:34:45.440 --> 0:34:47.440 This. I bring you a copy. I'm going to bring 0:34:47.520 --> 0:34:49.360 you a copy tomorrow. Thank you, Steve. 0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:51.840 Steve is at your Shawshank record, like you have to 0:34:51.840 --> 0:34:53.120 buy it if you're in the thing, like you have 0:34:53.160 --> 0:34:54.279 to watch Shawshank if it's on. 0:34:54.880 --> 0:34:58.440 This is absolutely this is the record. I own the 0:34:58.440 --> 0:35:01.160 most copies of it so much. It started with it 0:35:01.440 --> 0:35:03.359 started with the A track. I had the A track 0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:05.600 of this back in the day. It was like the 0:35:05.640 --> 0:35:08.839 first cool music I ever heard. Okay, let's let's not 0:35:08.920 --> 0:35:11.200 it's my first musical memory quest. 0:35:12.440 --> 0:35:15.359 All right, let's might get into the rabbit hole, all right. 0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:18.680 So I was asking what was Iris Gordy's role? 0:35:18.719 --> 0:35:20.960 I think so, I mean it was you know, you 0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:23.520 got to remember too, you know, this is in uh 0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:29.640 I'm I'm not from Detroit. You know, it's a familyiness 0:35:30.000 --> 0:35:32.920 and there was a lot of Gordy's involved with it. 0:35:33.160 --> 0:35:36.239 And when you come in in my role as sort 0:35:36.239 --> 0:35:40.440 of a I was just a burgeoning publicist. So I 0:35:40.440 --> 0:35:43.520 didn't even deal with I knew who Iris was, and 0:35:43.600 --> 0:35:46.600 I dealt with her very minimally. I mean I was 0:35:46.800 --> 0:35:50.480 They had a very structured class system at Motown. 0:35:51.719 --> 0:35:52.920 So how was it? 0:35:53.680 --> 0:35:57.520 What what was the modus operandi at Motown doing that 0:35:58.480 --> 0:36:01.080 period that you were out there. I've heard stories about 0:36:01.280 --> 0:36:04.359 how they operated in Detroit, and you know, they all 0:36:04.440 --> 0:36:07.799 use their IDs and took meticulous notes as far as 0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:11.960 like union scales and all those things. But what was 0:36:11.960 --> 0:36:16.360 your experience there and what was the everyday operations. 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:20.680 Like, Well, my my primary job was to serve as 0:36:20.680 --> 0:36:23.479 a writer and a publicist for a lot of those 0:36:23.680 --> 0:36:28.680 junior you know, like at that time, Eddie Kendricks had 0:36:28.920 --> 0:36:36.160 had left, you know, and David Ruffin had left, Edwards 0:36:36.160 --> 0:36:40.839 had left so there was like three temptations that were 0:36:40.840 --> 0:36:45.080 all working on solo records, Junior Walker and the All 0:36:45.160 --> 0:36:49.200 Star Dynamic Superiors. THELM. Houston. 0:36:51.120 --> 0:36:52.759 You work with the Dynamic Superiors. 0:36:53.280 --> 0:36:58.359 Yeah, man, I did their publicity and I got all 0:36:58.400 --> 0:37:00.600 those second tier guys. But you know, the same time 0:37:00.680 --> 0:37:02.719 I worked with you know, I got a chance to 0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:06.400 work with Stevie Wonder, and I got a chance to 0:37:06.480 --> 0:37:11.400 see the campaigns for like Dana Ross and the Four 0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:15.880 Tops and Marvin and you know. So it was just, 0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:19.800 I mean to be able to get to have that access, 0:37:20.120 --> 0:37:22.879 not to them, I wasn't out there partying with them 0:37:22.960 --> 0:37:24.839 or whatever, but just to have the access to see 0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:28.719 how they were treated compared to the Dynamic Superiors or 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:31.840 Junior Walker and the All Stars, and all those guys 0:37:31.880 --> 0:37:35.279 were frustrated. I mean, Eddie Kindricks used to just yell 0:37:35.320 --> 0:37:38.160 at me and just say hey, you know, I'd say, Eddie, look, 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:41.400 I'm not in charge, bro, Yeah, do you want to 0:37:41.400 --> 0:37:43.040 do the interview or not? If you don't want to 0:37:43.040 --> 0:37:45.200 do it, it's cool, you know, I'll try something else. 0:37:45.600 --> 0:37:48.040 You know. But they were all frustrated because there was 0:37:48.120 --> 0:37:51.600 such a you know, Barry had a really it was 0:37:51.680 --> 0:37:56.480 like a university, but it was also like very competitive 0:37:56.680 --> 0:38:00.800 and he hand selected who's going to be famous. Leon Ware, 0:38:01.239 --> 0:38:03.919 for example, I worked with leon Ware. Leon Ware gave 0:38:04.080 --> 0:38:07.680 Marvin Gay I Want You that whole album, and it 0:38:07.760 --> 0:38:10.839 broke him as an artist. You know. He told me that, 0:38:11.040 --> 0:38:13.919 you know personally that that record, that record was meant 0:38:13.920 --> 0:38:16.600 for him, and Barry told him that, hey, look, I 0:38:16.640 --> 0:38:18.640 can release this record on you and I don't know 0:38:18.680 --> 0:38:20.799 how much is how well it's going to do, but 0:38:20.840 --> 0:38:24.040 if you give this record to Marvin, you're gonna make 0:38:24.080 --> 0:38:27.640 tons of money. And he did, he gave the record. Yeah, 0:38:27.680 --> 0:38:30.880 So he put people in different situations like that. You know. 0:38:31.680 --> 0:38:38.560 Maybe twelve years ago, I saw an ep K for 0:38:38.760 --> 0:38:42.839 Songs in the Key of Life, in which I mean 0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:45.120 they did this thing where they like rented out this 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:49.560 ranch and invited all these people from the press and whatnot, 0:38:50.640 --> 0:38:55.960 and it's literally like they documented the press hearing songs 0:38:55.960 --> 0:38:57.960 in the Key of Life for the first time, and 0:38:58.800 --> 0:39:01.280 you know, faces on them and everything, and you're literally 0:39:01.360 --> 0:39:01.759 watching them. 0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:03.399 I mean, they edited nicely, but. 0:39:04.920 --> 0:39:08.120 I remember Stevie came in with a weird cowboy hat on. 0:39:08.239 --> 0:39:10.200 Like they were they were like on a ranch or whatever. 0:39:10.920 --> 0:39:16.279 But just in general, how you know, was there much 0:39:16.320 --> 0:39:22.360 strategy behind how Motown operated, at least as on the 0:39:22.400 --> 0:39:27.360 publicity side of things, on how they operated and handled things, 0:39:27.480 --> 0:39:29.200 or was it just generally. 0:39:30.400 --> 0:39:33.960 No, it was very It was very structured and very restraining. 0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:38.840 For example, Bob Jones allowed to pitch any of the 0:39:38.880 --> 0:39:44.279 major white magazines, like, say what Bob Jones, who'd been 0:39:44.320 --> 0:39:46.759 there for like I don't know when I got there, 0:39:46.800 --> 0:39:49.399 he'd already been there for ten years or something. He 0:39:49.480 --> 0:39:55.759 wasn't allowed to speak to Newsweek, Time, Life, all the 0:39:55.800 --> 0:39:59.800 biggest entertainment magazines. There was a guy named Mike Roskin 0:40:00.400 --> 0:40:04.520 who was the vice chairman of the company, and he 0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:09.320 took control of all the major big artists and he 0:40:10.080 --> 0:40:13.840 personally pitched those people. So me, as the lowly publicist 0:40:13.880 --> 0:40:16.799 that just came in, I was assigned to only deal 0:40:16.840 --> 0:40:19.480 with black press, you know. So I dealt with you know, 0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:22.600 Marie Moore from the Answer Damn News, Gertrude Gibson from 0:40:22.640 --> 0:40:27.959 the La Sentinel, you know, all the Earl Callaway from 0:40:28.480 --> 0:40:33.520 Chicago Defender and yeah, yeah, all the local folks. Those 0:40:33.520 --> 0:40:37.319 are my go to guys, the Baltimore Son, Yeah, Baltimore's son, 0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:39.080 all those things. And I used to write what they 0:40:39.120 --> 0:40:43.279 call canned features, and they they would use them verbatim 0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:45.640 and just put their name on it. But I didn't 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:48.719 care because I wasn't getting paid any extra money, you know. 0:40:48.840 --> 0:40:52.200 So but because a lot of the black newspapers and 0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:56.520 magazines didn't have enough money to first, you know, they're 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:59.560 very limited in staff. So but I dealt with the 0:40:59.640 --> 0:41:02.400 Regina Jones and Steve Ivory. 0:41:01.800 --> 0:41:04.680 And uh, Steve Legendary Steve. 0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:07.920 I yeah, so all those guys were, you know, my 0:41:08.080 --> 0:41:10.480 go to people. But you know, I thought, like, for 0:41:10.520 --> 0:41:12.880 a young guys, I need to do something more than 0:41:13.080 --> 0:41:15.920 just do black press that really make a name for myself. 0:41:16.239 --> 0:41:19.279 And so I decided without asking anyone. At the time, 0:41:19.360 --> 0:41:22.520 the Commodoores were just starting to break. They had their 0:41:22.520 --> 0:41:25.640 first hit single, I forgot what it was. It was 0:41:25.680 --> 0:41:29.120 before Machine Gun, but it was off their first album, right, 0:41:29.239 --> 0:41:32.360 and they were starting to gain some some traction, And 0:41:32.360 --> 0:41:34.319 so I decided I was going to call a newsweek 0:41:34.920 --> 0:41:37.239 and pitched them to do a story on the Commodores. 0:41:38.320 --> 0:41:42.600 And so I called the guy and he says, uh, 0:41:42.840 --> 0:41:44.680 forgot what his name was, And he said, well, who 0:41:44.680 --> 0:41:47.160 are you? And I said, well, my name is Ramon 0:41:47.320 --> 0:41:49.920 Hervey and I'm a publicist at Multi see. Yeah, but 0:41:50.000 --> 0:41:52.200 I don't I don't deal. I don't normally deal with 0:41:52.239 --> 0:41:58.720 anyone Motown except for my Mike Roskin, right, And I said, oh, okay, well, 0:41:58.800 --> 0:42:01.960 you know, well I'm calling you. Are you interested in, 0:42:02.520 --> 0:42:04.560 you know, possibly doing a story or whatever. He goes, well, 0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:07.279 let me, uh, let me get back to you. H 0:42:07.680 --> 0:42:11.680 on it. So he immediately calls Mike and he says, hey, 0:42:11.719 --> 0:42:15.640 some kid calls me today and I thought we had 0:42:15.680 --> 0:42:17.799 a deal, you know, blah blah blah. So then I 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:20.400 go into Bob Jones calls me in his offices. What 0:42:20.440 --> 0:42:21.279 the hell are you doing? 0:42:21.320 --> 0:42:21.480 Man? 0:42:21.520 --> 0:42:25.120 You called Newsweek. I don't even I can't even call Newsweek. 0:42:25.320 --> 0:42:27.120 You're in trouble. I don't even know if I can 0:42:27.200 --> 0:42:29.680 keep you, if you're going to keep your job. He goes, 0:42:29.800 --> 0:42:32.960 Roskin wants wants to meet with you. So I had 0:42:33.000 --> 0:42:35.399 to go up to Roskin, and you know, I mean, 0:42:35.400 --> 0:42:37.160 he was kind of cool. He says, said, hey, well, 0:42:37.200 --> 0:42:40.400 we have a we have some policies here, some regulations 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:42.120 that you need to follow if you're going to work here. 0:42:42.160 --> 0:42:44.520 And I said, okay, well, you know, nobody told me 0:42:44.600 --> 0:42:49.239 I wasn't allowed to talk to other media. He goes, well, yeah, 0:42:49.280 --> 0:42:52.319 there are certain things that we do here and you're 0:42:52.320 --> 0:42:56.000 not allowed to talk to these people. That's what I do. 0:42:56.520 --> 0:42:58.640 And I said, okay, well I stand correct. You know, 0:42:59.000 --> 0:43:00.879 thanks for the heads up, and you know they didn't 0:43:00.920 --> 0:43:03.120 fire me. But I realized then I got to get 0:43:03.120 --> 0:43:05.080 out of here because if I can't have that, you know, 0:43:05.120 --> 0:43:08.560 any latitude to grow then and you know Bob Jones 0:43:08.600 --> 0:43:11.600 wasn't going to give up his job, right, So I 0:43:11.760 --> 0:43:14.440 just said, I gotta find another outlet. 0:43:14.719 --> 0:43:15.800 So you're saying that. 0:43:17.239 --> 0:43:22.719 For entry artists at Motown and non A list frontline 0:43:22.920 --> 0:43:28.480 artists ie Diana Stevie, there was a limit to where 0:43:28.520 --> 0:43:30.239 you could go. And I guess for you that the 0:43:30.360 --> 0:43:35.759 limit was maybe Jet or possibly Ebony or I don't 0:43:35.800 --> 0:43:37.440 know if Ebany was considered. 0:43:37.640 --> 0:43:40.160 Jet, but Jet, and I don't think I was allowed 0:43:40.200 --> 0:43:43.080 to pitch Ebane. I was allowed to speak to Jet 0:43:44.200 --> 0:43:47.000 for sure, because I knew Bob Johnson and Silvery planning again, 0:43:47.080 --> 0:43:48.840 and they were always trying to get they were always 0:43:48.840 --> 0:43:51.840 trying to get money. And I said, Bob, I don't 0:43:51.840 --> 0:43:55.800 do advertising, I do put you know, there's other people 0:43:55.840 --> 0:43:57.359 at the company that you need to talk to here 0:43:57.440 --> 0:43:59.000 to get advertising. But he was always saying, well, if 0:43:59.000 --> 0:44:00.600 we do a story, can we get some ads? 0:44:00.600 --> 0:44:03.600 And you know, I was just going to ask, how 0:44:03.600 --> 0:44:05.680 does that work with a group like the Commodores, in 0:44:05.760 --> 0:44:08.560 which you know, there's clearly a point where like in 0:44:08.600 --> 0:44:12.640 seventy five they were a black act, and then come 0:44:12.760 --> 0:44:16.000 seventy seven when that self titled record came out with 0:44:16.640 --> 0:44:20.120 you know, easy and Brickhouse on it, when they suddenly 0:44:20.120 --> 0:44:23.160 became like triple platinum and there and thank god it's 0:44:23.200 --> 0:44:27.800 Friday and Lionel was about to you know, spread his wings. 0:44:28.160 --> 0:44:30.360 Then suddenly they only. 0:44:30.160 --> 0:44:32.760 Deal with the top tier, the guy above Bob Jones, 0:44:32.880 --> 0:44:34.120 which is yeah. 0:44:34.000 --> 0:44:36.800 Pretty much pretty much shifts like that, and you see 0:44:36.800 --> 0:44:40.160 how they the hierarchy like. But you know, one of 0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:43.680 the highlights of my time in Motown was I got 0:44:43.680 --> 0:44:46.160 to work with STEVIEE. Wonder on songs of the Key 0:44:46.239 --> 0:44:49.400 of Life. Okay, And I was in the marketing meeting 0:44:49.480 --> 0:44:54.320 that only someone at his leverage and cloud could even demand. 0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:57.879 So he called a meeting and he wanted everybody from 0:44:57.960 --> 0:45:00.719 all the divisions to come in so that they could 0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:04.360 tell him what they're going to do, or songs of 0:45:04.400 --> 0:45:07.600 the key you know that that only you know, probably him, 0:45:07.680 --> 0:45:13.520 Marvin Diana uh probably did simptations. The four Tops like those, 0:45:13.880 --> 0:45:18.040 the Jackson Five, those groups could probably command that, their 0:45:18.080 --> 0:45:21.160 managers could command that. But all those other guys, they 0:45:21.200 --> 0:45:23.400 would never get an opportunity to meet with the whole 0:45:24.080 --> 0:45:26.600 staff of the label. And one of the first things 0:45:26.640 --> 0:45:28.880 that Stevie said, and I mean I was I was 0:45:28.920 --> 0:45:31.640 so hyped because I hadn't met him yet and just 0:45:32.480 --> 0:45:34.759 meeting with him, and especially that album. I think of 0:45:34.800 --> 0:45:38.600 that album as probably the you know, pinnacle of his career. 0:45:39.520 --> 0:45:42.160 And one of the first things he said is, Okay, 0:45:42.200 --> 0:45:44.880 so just to set the tone for this meeting, I 0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:49.879 want to I would like to request I want a 0:45:50.000 --> 0:45:53.960 billboard in Times Square that's so big and so bright 0:45:54.000 --> 0:45:58.279 that even I can see it. He had that kind 0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:01.080 of charisma and he was but he was dead serious, 0:46:01.560 --> 0:46:04.040 and you know, just the way that he commanded the meeting. 0:46:04.120 --> 0:46:07.320 I was so thrilled. I just I've remembered that line forever. 0:46:07.440 --> 0:46:09.200 I've even asked him a couple of times over the 0:46:09.320 --> 0:46:12.720 years because I've had a great friendship with Stevie since 0:46:12.719 --> 0:46:15.560 that day when I did R and B live and stuff, 0:46:15.600 --> 0:46:19.080 he came and performed, and I just really have so 0:46:19.160 --> 0:46:22.080 much respect for him as an artist. Everything he's done with, 0:46:22.160 --> 0:46:25.759 you know, Martin Luther King Holiday, He's just had such 0:46:25.800 --> 0:46:29.680 an incredible career. But that was a great experience. And 0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:32.400 then one of the problems with that album that a 0:46:32.440 --> 0:46:35.000 lot of people don't realize is it had a twenty 0:46:35.000 --> 0:46:40.319 four page leaflet songbook inside. Yeah, and when you add 0:46:40.320 --> 0:46:43.280 the shrink, when you shrink wrap that with a double album, 0:46:43.320 --> 0:46:45.520 and then you have this twenty four page There were 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:49.040 stories breaking in the news that there was more returns 0:46:49.080 --> 0:46:54.160 on that album because of the war page. Yeah, And 0:46:54.239 --> 0:46:56.839 so I did some research on it to find out 0:46:57.480 --> 0:47:03.000 what was the percentage of warpage that comes with every album, 0:47:04.000 --> 0:47:06.799 and I found out that the percentage is I was 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:09.680 like under ten percent, around under ten percent of all 0:47:09.760 --> 0:47:12.759 the albums being released in those days would there would 0:47:12.760 --> 0:47:17.000 be a warpage issue and returns based on warpage. And 0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:21.000 so I talked to this guy in manufacturing to get 0:47:21.000 --> 0:47:24.680 his figures, and then I was able to get a 0:47:25.200 --> 0:47:31.320 story in Billboard to say that the information was misinformed, 0:47:31.360 --> 0:47:34.200 and that the percentage of warpage for Stevie's album was 0:47:34.280 --> 0:47:37.560 not as great. It was on par with the same 0:47:38.000 --> 0:47:41.120 amount of warpage for any album, right, and it was 0:47:41.239 --> 0:47:45.799 So I turned around then of it. And then I 0:47:45.800 --> 0:47:49.759 got in trouble for that too, because they hail was 0:47:49.760 --> 0:47:52.960 this elderly black woman it was. She was the head 0:47:52.960 --> 0:47:56.360 of manufacturing and she called me in tour office and 0:47:56.400 --> 0:47:59.920 got pissed off that one I went to a low 0:48:00.360 --> 0:48:04.240 person in her to get information and I didn't clear 0:48:04.560 --> 0:48:07.239 it with her. So there was all these kind of 0:48:07.280 --> 0:48:10.479 departmental things that I just you know, know, there wasn't 0:48:10.520 --> 0:48:12.560 a guidebook. They don't give you like a you can't 0:48:12.560 --> 0:48:15.279 talk to this person, get this through that. You guys 0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:16.400 have to find your way, you know. 0:48:17.640 --> 0:48:18.319 Politics. 0:48:18.800 --> 0:48:22.600 Yeah, okay, I want to move on past Motown, but 0:48:22.719 --> 0:48:26.520 since you're already there, I gotta know this. Why did 0:48:26.600 --> 0:48:34.440 Motown never use a consistent manufacturer? Like one of the 0:48:34.440 --> 0:48:40.239 weirdest things about Motown to me was, you know, like, 0:48:40.320 --> 0:48:45.000 okay for with Steve with his ninety Bay City rollers 0:48:45.040 --> 0:48:45.520 back there. 0:48:46.040 --> 0:48:46.640 Yes, I'm here. 0:48:47.680 --> 0:48:50.040 I you know, I have a large record collection myself 0:48:50.080 --> 0:48:54.640 in which I've purchased maybe you know, maybe I have 0:48:54.680 --> 0:48:57.800 ten copies of songs in the Key of Life. But 0:48:57.840 --> 0:49:02.560 my question is that I know that obviously Motown had 0:49:02.560 --> 0:49:09.319 to use various pressing plants, independent pressing plants across the 0:49:09.440 --> 0:49:12.080 United States in the world, because the ink, like the 0:49:12.440 --> 0:49:15.520 fonts of the ink for you know, if you brought 0:49:15.560 --> 0:49:18.279 the album down South and Georgia somewhere is different than 0:49:18.320 --> 0:49:20.360 if you brought it in New York, and different than 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:23.600 if you brought in LA And I just never understood 0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:30.120 why a label of Motown's magnitude never just had one 0:49:30.760 --> 0:49:36.000 consistent pressing plant, Like was Motown basically still an independent 0:49:36.080 --> 0:49:40.320 label even though they were the biggest black label. 0:49:41.239 --> 0:49:44.880 Yeah? That was you know Barry thought. I think he 0:49:45.160 --> 0:49:51.839 believed that he had more power, more influence as an 0:49:51.880 --> 0:49:54.680 independent label than he would if he cut a distribution deal. 0:49:55.000 --> 0:49:57.359 He would make more money. He was willing to take 0:49:57.400 --> 0:49:59.880 those risks that you're talking about of working with all 0:49:59.880 --> 0:50:05.480 the independent once stops and manufacturing centers around. But and 0:50:05.560 --> 0:50:09.920 he couldn't compete, you know. I think it was an 0:50:09.960 --> 0:50:13.640 issue of these bigger companies, you know, taking a big 0:50:13.719 --> 0:50:17.680 piece of independent companies and being able to offer record 0:50:19.120 --> 0:50:22.239 stores and stuff a bigger piece at a pie. It 0:50:22.320 --> 0:50:28.360 was very difficult for him and to stay independent. He 0:50:28.480 --> 0:50:30.239 wasn't the only one that was trying to do it, 0:50:30.320 --> 0:50:32.320 but it was very, very difficult. But I think that 0:50:32.520 --> 0:50:35.160 was a it was a numbers games to him, you 0:50:35.200 --> 0:50:37.200 know at the time that he felt, you know, that 0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:41.040 he was going to win bigger by staying independent than 0:50:41.200 --> 0:50:42.840 doing a distribution to with someone. 0:50:43.320 --> 0:50:46.120 And what was the logic and the reason for why 0:50:46.360 --> 0:50:51.279 Motowl never registered with the r I A A. Like 0:50:51.440 --> 0:50:55.080 every television appearance I would hear like and the Jackson 0:50:55.200 --> 0:51:00.920 sold you know, seven million units, I'll be there, like 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:03.400 it would just be like these really crazy numbers. 0:51:03.960 --> 0:51:05.879 So what was like the logic of not. 0:51:07.320 --> 0:51:11.640 Joining the Recording Industry Associations of America And. 0:51:13.000 --> 0:51:15.880 How did that affect I think. 0:51:15.719 --> 0:51:18.040 It's because he didn't want to be He didn't want 0:51:18.080 --> 0:51:20.439 to have to be certified. He wanted to be able 0:51:20.480 --> 0:51:23.560 to use his own publicity and say whatever he wanted 0:51:23.600 --> 0:51:26.319 without being questioned. I mean, you know, that's the only 0:51:26.400 --> 0:51:28.120 thing that I could think of at the time, was 0:51:28.160 --> 0:51:32.360 he didn't want to have buy on you know, he 0:51:32.400 --> 0:51:36.799 could always exaggerate, you know, and all the companies were exaggerating. 0:51:36.880 --> 0:51:38.680 I mean used to you know, the big thing in 0:51:38.719 --> 0:51:41.480 those days was to say that a record ship platinum. 0:51:41.719 --> 0:51:44.640 And you know, it's not how many records you ship, 0:51:44.719 --> 0:51:48.480 that's how many you sell. But you know, life they realized, 0:51:48.520 --> 0:51:51.239 you know, they'd run these stories, Oh it's and sort 0:51:51.280 --> 0:51:54.279 of ship platinum, but every turn gold. You know, so 0:51:55.719 --> 0:51:56.479 you know, did you. 0:51:56.360 --> 0:51:59.440 Guys, did you guys numbers? 0:52:00.520 --> 0:52:02.560 It was a big part of the record business thing. 0:52:02.719 --> 0:52:05.360 So I think that he was part of, you know, 0:52:05.440 --> 0:52:08.239 wanting to be able to control the narrative of what 0:52:08.480 --> 0:52:11.239 his company really represented in the marketplace. 0:52:11.840 --> 0:52:12.080 Yeah. 0:52:12.120 --> 0:52:15.279 I was going to say, now with streaming, especially in 0:52:15.320 --> 0:52:18.080 the movie business, like, the one thing I'll never know 0:52:19.239 --> 0:52:23.560 is how much money my film actually made exactly, Like 0:52:23.600 --> 0:52:25.440 that's the one thing they won't allow me to do. 0:52:25.560 --> 0:52:27.680 I can't look at the numbers at all to see 0:52:28.520 --> 0:52:30.920 if we did nine hundred million or just one million. 0:52:31.040 --> 0:52:35.520 So right, Yeah, it's it's red tape. It's the red 0:52:35.560 --> 0:52:38.799 tape of being involved. And you know that's the same 0:52:38.840 --> 0:52:41.640 thing that you've been dealing with with your film. That's 0:52:41.680 --> 0:52:44.279 been going on for years in the film business too, 0:52:44.600 --> 0:52:46.880 where they tell you, oh, well, we didn't recoup you know, 0:52:46.920 --> 0:52:48.960 the whole idea is, you know, if you don't have 0:52:49.120 --> 0:52:53.399 to tell your artist, you don't have to quantify how 0:52:53.400 --> 0:52:56.160 many records and you could you can you can also 0:52:56.239 --> 0:52:58.560 tell them that you owe us more money than you 0:52:58.600 --> 0:53:01.160 owe us, right. But I think that a lot of 0:53:01.160 --> 0:53:03.480 why he had so much frustration with a lot of 0:53:03.520 --> 0:53:07.760 the artists because the numbers didn't match what they felt 0:53:07.800 --> 0:53:11.839 they should should be getting, you know, and he got 0:53:11.840 --> 0:53:15.400 a bad rep for you know, supposedly shortcoming you know, 0:53:15.680 --> 0:53:20.960 uh short short sty selling everybody and not paying them 0:53:21.000 --> 0:53:21.960 what they were entitled to. 0:53:27.000 --> 0:53:29.759 So what was your next step after Motown? Like, what 0:53:29.960 --> 0:53:32.239 was your last period at Motown? And what was the 0:53:32.280 --> 0:53:33.240 next step afterwards? 0:53:33.320 --> 0:53:36.799 Then that was I got laid off because they were 0:53:36.840 --> 0:53:40.520 having a really tough winter and they were old a 0:53:40.520 --> 0:53:44.279 lot of money, you know, in terms of you know, 0:53:44.760 --> 0:53:46.799 a lot of what people don't realize is there's a 0:53:47.920 --> 0:53:50.600 when you're an independent company, you can't afford to not 0:53:50.600 --> 0:53:55.040 get paid for like ninety days. So they were getting old. 0:53:55.239 --> 0:53:57.120 They were being old a lot of money because a 0:53:57.120 --> 0:54:00.200 lot of companies just weren't paying them and so they 0:54:00.200 --> 0:54:01.799 had to lay off a bunch of people. And I 0:54:01.920 --> 0:54:04.160 was one of the people that was laid off, and 0:54:04.200 --> 0:54:07.000 Bob Jones was kind enough to one He let me 0:54:07.440 --> 0:54:10.160 write for some other magazines like Black Star. I don't 0:54:10.160 --> 0:54:13.640 remember if you remember Black Stars, Black Star, You remember 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:14.520 Black Stars. 0:54:14.360 --> 0:54:16.359 Black Stars and the CPA, Yes, I remember them. 0:54:16.640 --> 0:54:20.720 So I wrote for that under a pseudonym. Ray Trish 0:54:20.920 --> 0:54:23.880 was my name, and he told me I could you know, 0:54:23.920 --> 0:54:26.680 he helped to introduce me to He said, look, I 0:54:26.760 --> 0:54:28.720 know we not I can't get you any more money, 0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:31.520 but you know you could write for some magazines. I'll 0:54:31.560 --> 0:54:34.319 refer you. So I wrote for a lot of other 0:54:34.440 --> 0:54:36.840 magazines at the time as a freelancer, but I couldn't 0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:39.600 use my own name. And he told me that this 0:54:39.760 --> 0:54:43.280 company named Rogers and Cowan, which is actually a very 0:54:43.280 --> 0:54:48.600 famous PR company. They were actually the first independent public 0:54:48.600 --> 0:54:54.200 relations company in Hollywood when the studios originally started. You know, 0:54:54.320 --> 0:54:57.680 they controlled everything. You know, they basically employed the all 0:54:57.719 --> 0:55:00.480 the actors and there were no managers and no agents 0:55:00.520 --> 0:55:03.080 and no publicists. And they were the first company to 0:55:03.120 --> 0:55:06.319 be an independent publicist where big stars like Nally Wood 0:55:06.360 --> 0:55:09.680 and Robert Wagner and people of Paul Newman could actually 0:55:09.719 --> 0:55:13.439 go and have their own publicity and at this time 0:55:13.480 --> 0:55:16.680 there was an emergence of agents like the William Morrises 0:55:16.719 --> 0:55:19.799 and all those you know agents started around the same time. 0:55:21.480 --> 0:55:25.080 So he told me that Paul Block, this guy Paul Block, 0:55:25.120 --> 0:55:29.440 who was the head of music over there, was hiring 0:55:30.880 --> 0:55:33.720 freelance writers, right, and he said, you know, we're probably 0:55:33.719 --> 0:55:35.959 going to hire you back, but this will maybe hold 0:55:36.000 --> 0:55:40.319 you over. And so that's when I went to meet 0:55:40.320 --> 0:55:43.799 with Paul Block to see if he would hire me 0:55:43.880 --> 0:55:46.160 to do some freelance work. And was after work, was 0:55:46.200 --> 0:55:49.400 at seven o'clock. I had a GELOPI of a car. 0:55:49.520 --> 0:55:53.200 I had a Dodge Dart and I didn't have enough 0:55:53.280 --> 0:55:59.560 money to had no reverse. What I had no reverse, 0:55:59.600 --> 0:56:01.320 I didn't have enough money to fix it. So I 0:56:01.400 --> 0:56:03.680 used to drive around to find the right parking space. 0:56:04.080 --> 0:56:06.160 I couldn't do any valet parking or whatever. And I 0:56:06.239 --> 0:56:10.560 was drive around the finest spot where I can go. 0:56:10.800 --> 0:56:11.960 Up into a spot. 0:56:12.320 --> 0:56:16.080 Yeah, but you couldn't even go in head first. You 0:56:16.080 --> 0:56:18.200 could go head first anywhere because you have to back out. 0:56:18.480 --> 0:56:21.640 Exactly all right. So you know, I was waiting to 0:56:22.280 --> 0:56:25.759 get enough money to fix my reverse, and so I 0:56:25.840 --> 0:56:30.360 went to Beverly Hills their offices were on Bedford and Wiltshire, 0:56:30.920 --> 0:56:33.920 and I went in to meet with Paul, and here's 0:56:33.920 --> 0:56:37.080 a nice guy. Didn't really give me any guarantee that 0:56:37.160 --> 0:56:40.640 I would get hired or not. And then I went 0:56:40.719 --> 0:56:43.719 back to my car kind of a little bit deflating 0:56:43.800 --> 0:56:47.040 and disappointed and realized that I'd screwed up and I 0:56:47.040 --> 0:56:51.520 had I couldn't pull my you know, somebody had parked 0:56:51.520 --> 0:56:54.440 in front of me, so I had to back the 0:56:54.520 --> 0:56:58.120 car up, and this guy saw me trying to you know, 0:56:58.160 --> 0:57:00.880 I was leaning and trying to you know, those cars 0:57:00.880 --> 0:57:05.279 were kind of heavy. So this guy comes up and says, hey, man, 0:57:06.400 --> 0:57:08.279 you comes with your car And I said, yeah, it's 0:57:08.320 --> 0:57:11.000 just I guess my it seems like my reverse is 0:57:11.040 --> 0:57:12.839 not working. I'm not really sure. I mean I lied, 0:57:14.040 --> 0:57:16.160 pretend like I didn't really know what was wrong with 0:57:16.200 --> 0:57:18.640 my car, and he helped me and I finally got 0:57:18.640 --> 0:57:21.400 out of there. And then about two weeks later, I 0:57:21.440 --> 0:57:23.040 got a call from Paul and he says, hey, do 0:57:23.040 --> 0:57:24.760 you want to come in and work on I have 0:57:24.800 --> 0:57:27.800 a project that I think I could use you for. 0:57:28.440 --> 0:57:30.480 You come in, I'll tell you what it's for. And 0:57:30.480 --> 0:57:34.520 he says, well, he said, I one of my clients 0:57:35.000 --> 0:57:38.560 is Paul McCartney. I said, wow, Paul McCartney from the Beatles, 0:57:38.560 --> 0:57:42.400 Paul McCartney. He goes, yeah, that Paul McCartney, and I said, wow, yeah, yeah, 0:57:42.400 --> 0:57:44.320 I would love to work on the Beatles, I mean, 0:57:44.360 --> 0:57:47.000 you know. So what I found out was that Paul 0:57:47.440 --> 0:57:52.440 had bought the publishing to the Buddy Holly catalog, so 0:57:53.400 --> 0:57:55.760 he had owned it, and he was doing a week 0:57:56.120 --> 0:57:59.360 of you know, in a special Buddy Holly week in 0:57:59.680 --> 0:58:02.480 the you K and he wanted a press kit put together, 0:58:03.080 --> 0:58:05.960 and so I was my task was to write all 0:58:06.000 --> 0:58:08.480 the materials that would go in the press kit for 0:58:09.040 --> 0:58:12.600 them to use for him to use to launch that week. 0:58:13.040 --> 0:58:15.640 And so that was my first project at Rogers and Cowan. 0:58:16.240 --> 0:58:18.840 And I didn't talk to Paul, but he approved all 0:58:19.000 --> 0:58:24.280 everything that I did, and and they ended up hiring 0:58:24.320 --> 0:58:26.760 me as a as a publicist based on my work. 0:58:27.600 --> 0:58:29.200 I'm Paul McCarthy. 0:58:29.280 --> 0:58:31.200 And then I ended up being like a gay guy 0:58:31.320 --> 0:58:35.680 on on Paul's account in LA and then he had 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:38.040 another guy working in New York, but Paul was really 0:58:38.080 --> 0:58:41.400 the head guy. Okay, I you know, I I Linda 0:58:41.440 --> 0:58:44.640 McCartney and Lee Eastman, his father in law, and it 0:58:44.720 --> 0:58:47.840 was a couple of meetings and on phone call and stuff. 0:58:47.840 --> 0:58:50.400 I didn't really get to know him very well, but 0:58:50.480 --> 0:58:52.160 I got a chance to work on his an account 0:58:52.160 --> 0:58:54.720 and I learned so much. I mean, he had one 0:58:54.720 --> 0:58:59.960 of the biggest publishing MPL communications. He owned so much publishing, 0:59:00.080 --> 0:59:03.000 it's just amazing. It was like books of it. And 0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:05.360 I got to see all he owned, like over one 0:59:05.440 --> 0:59:09.280 hundred fight songs from all the major colleges across the 0:59:09.400 --> 0:59:14.840 US really usually won schools. I mean, it just was unbelievable, 0:59:15.440 --> 0:59:17.520 just so many songs. 0:59:18.000 --> 0:59:19.720 Well, it said that he's the one that taught Michael 0:59:19.800 --> 0:59:23.040 Jackson about like the power of owning publishing. 0:59:23.960 --> 0:59:27.400 Yeah. Well apparently what ended up happening was that he 0:59:27.560 --> 0:59:33.440 told him that Capital had offered, you know, to buy 0:59:34.040 --> 0:59:38.400 for giving them an opportunity to buy their catalog back right. Yeah, 0:59:38.440 --> 0:59:40.400 And he was telling Michael, you know, I just couldn't 0:59:40.480 --> 0:59:43.080 pull my I couldn't convince myself to pay that much 0:59:43.080 --> 0:59:45.760 money for songs that we wrote, you know, And so 0:59:45.800 --> 0:59:49.760 he turned it down. But then Michael went back and 0:59:50.600 --> 0:59:55.000 told Mike Stewart at Mike Stewart was ahead of publishing 0:59:55.080 --> 0:59:58.560 at Sony at the time, and Mike Stewart helped him 0:59:58.880 --> 1:00:00.800 purchase the music. 1:00:01.480 --> 1:00:05.160 It's Paul's fault, man, he should have Always claim your legacy, 1:00:05.480 --> 1:00:06.640 Always claim your legacy. 1:00:06.760 --> 1:00:09.360 Well, what's your take on people these days selling their 1:00:09.400 --> 1:00:12.080 catalogs and that being a thing that people do these days? 1:00:12.160 --> 1:00:14.240 Do you you see it as fortuitous or not? 1:00:14.320 --> 1:00:16.200 You know, I think it's I think it's a great. 1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:19.240 It's great for these a lot of artists that are 1:00:19.320 --> 1:00:22.640 not really relevant, you know, on streaming services and stuff. 1:00:22.680 --> 1:00:25.120 They're not making a lot of money. But these are 1:00:25.320 --> 1:00:28.400 companies that their job is to, you know, try to 1:00:28.400 --> 1:00:31.520 make money after publishing off placement and sinking and all 1:00:31.560 --> 1:00:33.560 that stuff. So I think it's I think it's great. 1:00:33.600 --> 1:00:38.400 I've seen it. It's amazing that they you know, I 1:00:38.520 --> 1:00:43.200 kind of it's a it's a further development from when 1:00:43.840 --> 1:00:47.640 I guess maybe ten years ago, when Live Nation and 1:00:49.200 --> 1:00:53.680 AEG started paying huge amount of money for artists rights, 1:00:54.000 --> 1:00:58.080 you know, to circumvent agents and you know where they 1:00:58.440 --> 1:01:01.000 would you know, end labels. You know, they wanted to 1:01:01.040 --> 1:01:04.439 really monopolize and control, and this is just another form 1:01:04.560 --> 1:01:08.320 of that where you know, publishing has always been an 1:01:08.360 --> 1:01:12.320 annuity for artists if they understood it that it's something 1:01:12.320 --> 1:01:15.720 that lasts in perpetuity, and so I would always say, 1:01:15.760 --> 1:01:17.760 hang on to it. But if someone's going to give 1:01:17.800 --> 1:01:21.720 you three hundred million dollars and you're still going to 1:01:21.760 --> 1:01:23.880 you know, make money, you know, that's a lot of 1:01:23.920 --> 1:01:24.760 money to turn. 1:01:24.640 --> 1:01:29.280 Down spending it now. Yeah, I you know I did that, right, Bill? 1:01:30.200 --> 1:01:34.080 What you do sold my publishing? Did you sell a posting? 1:01:34.640 --> 1:01:37.040 I sold it so you could pay for the new house. 1:01:37.400 --> 1:01:39.760 Exactly all of it, all of it. 1:01:40.360 --> 1:01:44.680 Because it's like the logic was, they did the math 1:01:44.720 --> 1:01:47.600 for me, and basically. 1:01:48.840 --> 1:01:53.080 The way I was going now, I would have gotten 1:01:53.120 --> 1:01:57.600 the full value of my lifetime work. But maybe when 1:01:57.640 --> 1:02:01.240 I was seventy seven years old, so I could either 1:02:01.920 --> 1:02:03.760 they did the math, like we can either give this 1:02:03.880 --> 1:02:07.160 all to you right now, like what you would make 1:02:07.240 --> 1:02:09.360 up into seventy seven years old, or we could just 1:02:09.360 --> 1:02:10.520 pay you off a. 1:02:10.480 --> 1:02:12.400 Little bit at a time, a little bit at a time. 1:02:12.840 --> 1:02:14.560 And you know, the Roots are just one of those 1:02:14.560 --> 1:02:18.640 prestige artists that like selling records. 1:02:18.360 --> 1:02:24.560 Was never our thing. And I mean for the most part, licensing, 1:02:24.800 --> 1:02:25.520 you know, like. 1:02:25.920 --> 1:02:28.160 You still have to get permission for licensing, correct, Like 1:02:28.200 --> 1:02:29.920 it's not full out you sold it, and they can 1:02:30.000 --> 1:02:31.280 just do whatever they want to with it. 1:02:31.920 --> 1:02:34.960 I mean, we have a very specific arrangement, so you know, 1:02:35.040 --> 1:02:38.680 I don't want my shit being used for like mega 1:02:38.880 --> 1:02:39.720 parades or anything. 1:02:39.760 --> 1:02:41.480 Right, That's what I'm asking. But if I didn't ask, 1:02:41.520 --> 1:02:43.440 you want to disclose that information, I'm like, you'll want 1:02:43.440 --> 1:02:45.440 people out here thinking the music could. 1:02:45.200 --> 1:02:45.920 Just be anywhere. 1:02:46.000 --> 1:02:50.120 No, there's there's always sort of stipulations, like depending on 1:02:51.040 --> 1:02:51.640 what it is. 1:02:51.840 --> 1:02:58.000 I mean, for the most part, Yeah, I decided to It's. 1:02:57.840 --> 1:03:01.080 Not as big as a Bob Dylan deal or you 1:03:01.120 --> 1:03:02.080 know McCartney deal. 1:03:02.160 --> 1:03:05.120 But but you started in nineteen eighty seven, right with 1:03:05.200 --> 1:03:05.840 the roots. 1:03:06.160 --> 1:03:12.280 Well I'm a technically eighty seven, but we got ninety three. Yeah, 1:03:12.520 --> 1:03:14.440 it's thirty years for us, and so. 1:03:14.480 --> 1:03:17.080 You earned the right to do that. That's why I'm 1:03:17.080 --> 1:03:19.600 saying that people you know who've been in the industry 1:03:19.600 --> 1:03:23.600 a long time. You know, you guys have been you know, performing. 1:03:23.920 --> 1:03:27.960 I've seen you guys perform several times. In fact, we met. 1:03:28.000 --> 1:03:29.880 I don't even know if you remember, but we met 1:03:29.880 --> 1:03:32.960 when d Jane yeah with feet are. 1:03:33.720 --> 1:03:37.120 Yeah, totally remember that. Maybe you well you. 1:03:37.160 --> 1:03:42.000 Try to like you, No, I just didn't know the radar. No, no, 1:03:42.040 --> 1:03:44.320 I just didn't know if you remember how how we met. 1:03:44.360 --> 1:03:47.640 But yeah, that was absolutely Yeah, you're the first time 1:03:47.680 --> 1:03:52.760 when I did a speeches a solo solo situation. Yeah, 1:03:53.080 --> 1:03:57.040 you start your your book at a very curious place. 1:03:57.120 --> 1:04:02.320 You start with the Richard Prior story, and that particular 1:04:02.440 --> 1:04:06.960 chapter in chapter one, to me, I was very curious 1:04:06.960 --> 1:04:10.560 about that, only because kind of one of the prevalent 1:04:10.640 --> 1:04:14.280 themes on the show that we often talk about that 1:04:14.400 --> 1:04:20.760 I'm often curious about is when a creative or an 1:04:20.840 --> 1:04:24.640 artist sort of subconsciously lets you know that they don't 1:04:24.680 --> 1:04:30.960 want to do this anymore. And oftentimes it'll happen. They'll 1:04:31.040 --> 1:04:34.240 react in ways that will let me know that. And 1:04:34.320 --> 1:04:39.400 oftentimes artists will self sabotage, you know, a good thing, 1:04:39.880 --> 1:04:43.120 and there's ways to do it. There's you know, I 1:04:43.160 --> 1:04:47.800 mean lightweight stuff like gambling, and you know, for you, 1:04:47.920 --> 1:04:52.680 especially as a manager, I know that time management is 1:04:52.760 --> 1:04:57.320 also a way that an artist will express their unhappiness 1:04:57.320 --> 1:04:59.600 with the situation. I'm certain you've dealt with artists that 1:05:00.440 --> 1:05:02.080 last minute, we'll cancel something. 1:05:02.720 --> 1:05:02.920 You know. 1:05:03.120 --> 1:05:05.280 I used to always joke that I always felt the 1:05:05.360 --> 1:05:09.400 Jackson's made up. I only knew the Jackson's got exhaustion. 1:05:09.680 --> 1:05:13.360 That's why, like, right. 1:05:15.240 --> 1:05:17.919 Right, I've never seen the word exhausting you so much. 1:05:17.960 --> 1:05:23.080 Whenever it's like I canceled, Mike origanet like exhaustion, okay, whatever. 1:05:24.120 --> 1:05:30.080 But for you, though, just. 1:05:30.080 --> 1:05:34.000 The amount of fires that you've had to put out 1:05:34.320 --> 1:05:38.200 with every client that you've had, like it's like you're 1:05:38.240 --> 1:05:42.480 being sent out into the front lines and you go 1:05:42.640 --> 1:05:46.600 off on Yes, while he is holding. 1:05:46.320 --> 1:05:48.920 Up I'm holding up the chapter where he says a 1:05:49.000 --> 1:05:51.680 path of self destruction can sabotage fame? 1:05:52.600 --> 1:05:56.040 Yeah, so well, one, I wanted to know why you 1:05:56.120 --> 1:06:03.200 felt this is a very unique interpretation of your life, 1:06:03.240 --> 1:06:06.640 that is, that isn't a biography or memoir. And as 1:06:06.680 --> 1:06:09.160 I said at the top of it, I feel like 1:06:09.880 --> 1:06:15.560 this book is important for the future managers or really, 1:06:15.640 --> 1:06:18.200 like to me, I think it's important for interns because 1:06:18.320 --> 1:06:21.880 I know every intern I ever met in nineteen ninety 1:06:21.920 --> 1:06:24.960 three is now CEO that I work with, and it 1:06:24.960 --> 1:06:27.320 always starts with Hey, you don't remember it, but you 1:06:27.320 --> 1:06:29.080 came to my college back to then and back when 1:06:29.080 --> 1:06:29.800 I was an intern. 1:06:30.880 --> 1:06:31.880 But for you. 1:06:34.840 --> 1:06:38.000 To be at the Helm especially like the way you 1:06:38.040 --> 1:06:44.400 started that Richard Pryor chapter in your book, Why would 1:06:44.480 --> 1:06:49.120 you want to subject yourself to that level of torture 1:06:51.000 --> 1:06:54.920 and not saying it's all bad, but you know, like 1:06:55.200 --> 1:06:58.040 surely you're you have to be living every day like 1:06:59.320 --> 1:07:00.960 any moment, I'm going to get a call at three 1:07:01.040 --> 1:07:02.840 a m. And I got to get I got to 1:07:02.840 --> 1:07:03.680 put a fire out. 1:07:05.440 --> 1:07:08.200 It did come to that, but I didn't. I didn't 1:07:08.240 --> 1:07:11.440 think that going in, Like I had bright lights and 1:07:11.480 --> 1:07:14.400 I thought, Wow, I'm getting a chance to represent Richard Pryor, 1:07:14.480 --> 1:07:18.080 someone who I really respected, who I knew about, who 1:07:18.160 --> 1:07:20.600 I was a fan with. You know, he was given 1:07:20.640 --> 1:07:26.160 a black kid, you know, young still, you know, by 1:07:26.200 --> 1:07:30.560 that time, I was pretty experienced. But his manager, David Franklin, 1:07:30.920 --> 1:07:36.520 he made sure that when he that he wanted He said, 1:07:36.600 --> 1:07:38.760 Richard really wants you to do this, and we want 1:07:38.800 --> 1:07:40.240 to make sure that you're going to be the one 1:07:40.280 --> 1:07:43.200 to do it. We want you to be responsible. So 1:07:43.320 --> 1:07:45.160 I thought, wow, this is great, you know, to have 1:07:45.200 --> 1:07:48.160 a you know, at that point, Richard was really you know, 1:07:48.240 --> 1:07:50.440 he was one of the top paid black actors in 1:07:50.480 --> 1:07:55.040 the business. He had been successful as a writer, he 1:07:55.080 --> 1:07:57.880 had had a lot of success, you know, and so 1:07:58.080 --> 1:07:59.800 it was like a real feather in my cap to 1:07:59.800 --> 1:08:04.439 get him as a client, you know. And I was thinking, Wow, 1:08:04.480 --> 1:08:07.320 I can do you know, There's no limits to what 1:08:07.400 --> 1:08:10.440 I can do with this guy from a pr standpoint. 1:08:10.480 --> 1:08:12.880 So that was where my thinking was, like, this is 1:08:12.920 --> 1:08:15.520 gonna be a great opportunity. I'm going to make him 1:08:15.560 --> 1:08:17.400 even a bigger star than he already is. 1:08:18.120 --> 1:08:18.280 Uh. 1:08:18.600 --> 1:08:22.439 And then when I got into trenches, it wasn't quite 1:08:23.080 --> 1:08:26.240 the opportunities that I thought were there. Weren't one hundred 1:08:26.280 --> 1:08:32.360 percent there because he was, you know, he was very unpredictable, 1:08:32.439 --> 1:08:35.080 and he was going through a lot of personal issues 1:08:35.120 --> 1:08:37.880 with his drugs and alcohol and stuff like that. And 1:08:37.960 --> 1:08:40.679 you mentioned at three o'clock, you know what. The first 1:08:40.720 --> 1:08:44.880 time that that happened, he was supposed to do a 1:08:45.800 --> 1:08:50.320 he had agreed the headline for the Brotherhood Black Crusade, 1:08:51.200 --> 1:08:55.639 which is a very well known organization, fundraising organization, community 1:08:55.720 --> 1:08:58.400 organization in Los Angeles and a guy named Danny Bakewell 1:08:58.840 --> 1:09:02.479 was the founder of it and still has kept the 1:09:02.720 --> 1:09:07.200 organization going. But Richard called, and at that time it 1:09:07.320 --> 1:09:10.320 was his wife, Jennifer. They called me at three o'clock 1:09:10.360 --> 1:09:13.559 in the morning and they're kind of giggling. I can 1:09:13.640 --> 1:09:16.639 kind of tell their hw and stuff, and they tell 1:09:16.680 --> 1:09:21.160 me that Richard wants to Richard wants to cancel his performance. 1:09:21.200 --> 1:09:25.280 It was like early Saturday morning and the show wasn't 1:09:25.360 --> 1:09:27.880 until he wasn't gonna go on until like nine to 1:09:27.880 --> 1:09:31.680 twenty the next night, right, So he says, well, you know, 1:09:31.760 --> 1:09:34.440 we went to the doctors and he has gastro internitis. 1:09:34.479 --> 1:09:36.920 I didn't even know what gastro in tonitis was, so 1:09:37.200 --> 1:09:39.880 I had to look it up and I we had 1:09:39.880 --> 1:09:43.719 the stomach ache, you know, basically that's a fancy word 1:09:43.760 --> 1:09:47.479 for stomach ach medical terms. I said, well, you know, 1:09:47.960 --> 1:09:51.599 why don't you guys go to sleep and let's just 1:09:51.800 --> 1:09:56.519 re you know, reconnect in the morning, Uh, you know, 1:09:56.520 --> 1:09:58.200 get a good night's sleep. I can call you around 1:09:58.240 --> 1:10:00.439 eleven and then we'll decide what we should. I mean, 1:10:00.479 --> 1:10:02.280 you know, you don't have to go on until nine o'clock. 1:10:02.320 --> 1:10:05.760 Maybe your stomach will be feel better by then. And 1:10:05.840 --> 1:10:07.600 I said, also, I really don't want to. You know, 1:10:07.640 --> 1:10:09.679 he wanted me to make an announcement, and I said 1:10:09.720 --> 1:10:12.439 that there's no place I can go. You know, at 1:10:12.439 --> 1:10:15.479 that point, there was no social media or whatever like that. 1:10:15.520 --> 1:10:17.080 And the only way I could break a story like 1:10:17.160 --> 1:10:21.120 that was I could go to AP Associated Press, and 1:10:21.640 --> 1:10:23.439 I said, I don't want to do that, and I 1:10:23.479 --> 1:10:26.400 wanted to wait and talk to Danny Bakewell to see 1:10:26.400 --> 1:10:30.640 what he thought what would work best for him. I 1:10:30.800 --> 1:10:33.960 did end up talking to Danny in the morning, and 1:10:34.040 --> 1:10:38.519 I convinced Richard that I would create a statement to 1:10:38.600 --> 1:10:42.000 be read and that we wouldn't announce it nationally as 1:10:42.040 --> 1:10:45.000 a national thing. We just announced it at the venue 1:10:45.520 --> 1:10:47.200 because a lot of people, do you know, it's just 1:10:47.240 --> 1:10:49.720 a charity event, and not everybody needed to know that 1:10:49.800 --> 1:10:52.920 he was canceling it, right except for the people that 1:10:52.960 --> 1:10:56.360 were in there. And he also agreed to donate ten 1:10:56.439 --> 1:11:01.559 thousand dollars to the Brotherhood Crusade. I said, So Danny 1:11:01.680 --> 1:11:04.040 was fine with that. So I went there that night, 1:11:04.560 --> 1:11:07.720 you know, and I had prepared the statement with the 1:11:07.800 --> 1:11:11.680 idea that Danny Bakewell would read the statement to the 1:11:11.720 --> 1:11:15.080 audience and also tell them. So when I got there, 1:11:16.120 --> 1:11:18.080 I hadn't met Danny. I'd only talked to him on 1:11:18.120 --> 1:11:21.839 the phone. So I said, well, Danny, here's the statement 1:11:21.920 --> 1:11:24.120 that Richard wants you to read. He goes, I'm not 1:11:24.160 --> 1:11:26.560 reading that. He said, you're here, you're his guy. So 1:11:26.720 --> 1:11:28.559 you go up there and read it. And it was 1:11:28.560 --> 1:11:31.200 at the shrine. I said, oh, man, you're kidding me, like, 1:11:31.439 --> 1:11:33.720 you know, really, So I had to go up on 1:11:33.840 --> 1:11:37.800 stage and tell five thousand black people who were expecting 1:11:38.439 --> 1:11:42.919 Richard Prior to perform. And that was really the beginning. 1:11:43.000 --> 1:11:47.000 It set a pattern of just having to do that 1:11:47.680 --> 1:11:48.360 all the time. 1:11:48.560 --> 1:11:48.720 You know. 1:11:48.840 --> 1:11:51.920 Richard was just one of those guys. He was unpredictable 1:11:51.920 --> 1:11:53.920 and I'd come to the office some days and I 1:11:54.000 --> 1:11:57.400 just never knew what he was going to so you 1:11:57.560 --> 1:11:59.040 just kind of hope that, you know. And then there 1:11:59.120 --> 1:12:01.400 was other things that he did do. For example, the 1:12:01.520 --> 1:12:04.000 Richard Prior Life and Concert film was my you know, 1:12:04.160 --> 1:12:07.439 was an idea I brought to him. That wasn't It 1:12:07.479 --> 1:12:10.160 wasn't my idea to do the contract. But somebody came 1:12:10.200 --> 1:12:12.439 to me, a guy by the name of Bill sargent 1:12:13.120 --> 1:12:15.600 Well I mentioned in the book. He's the guy that 1:12:15.720 --> 1:12:18.679 offered fifty million dollars for the Beatles to your Reunion tour. 1:12:19.120 --> 1:12:20.880 And he said, Hey, I want to do a live concert. 1:12:20.880 --> 1:12:22.599 And I said, well, I think that's a really great idea. 1:12:22.640 --> 1:12:24.720 I don't know if I can sell it, but and 1:12:25.080 --> 1:12:27.439 you know, David and Richard gave me their blessings and 1:12:27.479 --> 1:12:29.680 I helped to put that whole thing together. So you 1:12:30.000 --> 1:12:32.519 get those kinds of moments and you think, well, you know, 1:12:32.520 --> 1:12:35.320 if I can do more of that, that offsets those 1:12:35.360 --> 1:12:41.240 other times when I'm canceling signatory whatever. 1:12:41.720 --> 1:12:42.240 But you gave. 1:12:42.320 --> 1:12:44.040 I just wanted to give you your props and at 1:12:44.120 --> 1:12:46.400 least at the least in the richer prior chapter, because 1:12:46.439 --> 1:12:49.360 not only do you account for all these events, but 1:12:49.400 --> 1:12:52.800 you also give perspective and where Richard came from and 1:12:52.880 --> 1:12:55.400 kind of telling his story to give you know, this 1:12:55.600 --> 1:12:58.160 kind of twenty twenty two. I always say lens of 1:12:59.160 --> 1:13:01.320 cause and effect basically, right. 1:13:01.880 --> 1:13:04.439 Yeah, different, you know, like you know, Richard did a 1:13:04.479 --> 1:13:07.360 lot of things he never got canceled, like what happened 1:13:07.400 --> 1:13:11.000 with Dave Chappelle. And you know, Richard, people just loved 1:13:11.040 --> 1:13:13.720 him because he was so vulnerable and he shared, He 1:13:13.840 --> 1:13:19.000 turned his cont his his misfortune into comedy in a 1:13:19.040 --> 1:13:23.080 way that it was resonated with people, and they forgave him. 1:13:23.120 --> 1:13:26.800 They always forgave him of everything, and he he you know, 1:13:27.240 --> 1:13:31.080 as I think you noticed in the book he created 1:13:31.120 --> 1:13:34.320 a pattern that was very successful for him in terms 1:13:34.360 --> 1:13:37.720 of marketing. The way he marketed his fame and his persona. 1:13:38.320 --> 1:13:42.479 You know, his comedy, live concert film. You know, there's 1:13:42.600 --> 1:13:45.600 very rare, you know, as a strategic uh, you know, 1:13:45.680 --> 1:13:48.599 crisis manager, whatever, the first thing you say is let's 1:13:48.600 --> 1:13:51.519 do something and let's move away from Let's figure out 1:13:51.560 --> 1:13:53.840 a way to put that in the past. And he 1:13:54.000 --> 1:13:57.760 found a way to actually allowed that the fuels a 1:13:57.800 --> 1:13:58.719 lot of his comedy. 1:13:59.240 --> 1:13:59.920 All right, So I. 1:14:01.439 --> 1:14:04.599 Forgot where I read it, But there was a show 1:14:04.640 --> 1:14:11.000 that he did at the Hollywood Bowl. I'll remember there's 1:14:11.040 --> 1:14:13.280 a famous photo where he says, I want you all 1:14:13.320 --> 1:14:19.320 to kiss my happy black ass. He's a little I 1:14:20.280 --> 1:14:23.240 think it was like he was doing a benefit. It 1:14:23.360 --> 1:14:24.559 was like an l g b t Q. 1:14:25.920 --> 1:14:32.680 I was representing bet Midler then, yes, so that was 1:14:32.680 --> 1:14:38.479 a star spangled night for rights. Bet Midler's manager, Aaron Russo, 1:14:38.680 --> 1:14:43.240 came up with the idea and we and I was 1:14:43.320 --> 1:14:45.840 I really had a big role in that because we 1:14:45.880 --> 1:14:48.240 met with all these gay you know, l g b 1:14:48.360 --> 1:14:52.679 Q organizations from San Francisco. Because we donate the money 1:14:54.040 --> 1:14:57.400 from the concert and Richard agreed to do it, but 1:14:57.520 --> 1:15:00.800 I didn't. I didn't represent Richard then, okay, But I 1:15:00.880 --> 1:15:05.280 literally was on the stage and I was six feet 1:15:05.320 --> 1:15:08.200 away from him before he went on, and I stayed 1:15:08.240 --> 1:15:10.120 on the stage because I was such a big fan 1:15:10.240 --> 1:15:11.960 I wanted to see him close up. So I was 1:15:12.439 --> 1:15:14.679 on the wing of the stage watching that all happen, 1:15:15.160 --> 1:15:18.040 and he walked right by me. After he did that, 1:15:18.320 --> 1:15:21.160 he walked off the stage and went straight to his 1:15:21.280 --> 1:15:22.120 limbo and left. 1:15:22.280 --> 1:15:23.040 I heard it was. 1:15:23.320 --> 1:15:26.240 It was described someone say it was the cabaret version 1:15:26.280 --> 1:15:27.839 of Altamont. 1:15:28.320 --> 1:15:33.479 If you know what happened, it was he freaked out everybody. 1:15:33.520 --> 1:15:35.760 I mean, he just went and you could watch him 1:15:35.800 --> 1:15:38.479 turn as it was, you know, he started off and 1:15:38.640 --> 1:15:42.360 people were laughing and whatever, and then he just dark 1:15:42.400 --> 1:15:45.439 and he just I don't know if he realized there 1:15:45.680 --> 1:15:49.400 or if he was misled, but he just really turned 1:15:49.439 --> 1:15:50.640 on the audience. 1:15:55.760 --> 1:15:59.920 Can you give me an example, because oftentimes I say, 1:16:00.240 --> 1:16:03.080 I see that you you are thrown in the front 1:16:03.120 --> 1:16:09.439 line to strategize something or think of a spin or 1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:14.320 fix this real quick. Can you just in your whole career, like, what. 1:16:14.400 --> 1:16:19.800 Was the one time where you felt like whatever spin 1:16:19.920 --> 1:16:22.759 you had to put on something that you know, maybe 1:16:22.800 --> 1:16:27.760 this might engulf you or kind of you know, you 1:16:27.880 --> 1:16:30.680 might get drawn into the tornado yourself, like this is 1:16:30.680 --> 1:16:31.960 something that you can't handle. 1:16:33.920 --> 1:16:36.400 I don't know. I've never thought there's something I couldn't handle. 1:16:37.560 --> 1:16:40.479 So you're not handling this with with fear because even 1:16:40.520 --> 1:16:43.519 then you have to like meet with people. You got 1:16:43.520 --> 1:16:46.160 to be the bearer of bad news. I'm sorry, my client, 1:16:46.200 --> 1:16:48.160 blah blah blah blah blah. It's not going to make it. 1:16:48.960 --> 1:16:53.040 You know, well, you you learn, you know, you build 1:16:53.120 --> 1:16:56.280 up a resiliency, like Richard Richard prior telling me how 1:16:56.320 --> 1:16:59.479 to be resilient because he was constantly forced me to 1:16:59.479 --> 1:17:00.639 be chimes too. 1:17:00.760 --> 1:17:02.040 Rick James was another. 1:17:01.800 --> 1:17:06.240 Guy that tested me my you know, my resolve and 1:17:06.280 --> 1:17:09.360 my ability to just you know, because I really I 1:17:09.400 --> 1:17:11.840 really admired Rick and thought he had a lot of talent. 1:17:12.080 --> 1:17:16.400 You know, he was a really skilled musician, and but 1:17:16.560 --> 1:17:19.639 he was just his own worst enemy. But I always 1:17:19.680 --> 1:17:21.680 wanted him to win, and I was trying to come 1:17:21.760 --> 1:17:24.559 up for ways to help him win because I thought, like, 1:17:24.680 --> 1:17:28.320 you know, I did feel like he had a potential 1:17:28.400 --> 1:17:31.280 to be bigger than what he was, and it becomes. 1:17:31.600 --> 1:17:34.519 But but I never gave up on that belief and 1:17:34.560 --> 1:17:36.479 so that's what fueled my You know. 1:17:36.760 --> 1:17:40.240 But isn't it exhausting? But is it not exhausting to 1:17:43.960 --> 1:17:46.760 Is it not exhausting for you sometimes to have to 1:17:48.560 --> 1:17:52.000 Jedi mind trick your artists, you know, like I know 1:17:52.080 --> 1:17:52.920 it is it is. 1:17:53.160 --> 1:17:55.960 There's times when I don't. I haven't enjoyed being a MOP. 1:17:56.000 --> 1:17:58.439 I'll be honest. I mean, it's not something that I 1:17:58.479 --> 1:18:01.000 wake up going like what problem can I fucking fix today? 1:18:01.040 --> 1:18:03.240 You know, that's not like I don't wake up with 1:18:03.280 --> 1:18:06.559 that attitude. But I just feel I just always felt 1:18:07.000 --> 1:18:11.280 comfortable with the pressure that I felt I would be 1:18:11.320 --> 1:18:15.840 able to if they trusted me that I could help them, 1:18:16.320 --> 1:18:18.880 we could achieve. Our collaboration to me, as you know, 1:18:19.000 --> 1:18:22.640 artists and managers is really it's just a synergy and 1:18:22.680 --> 1:18:25.080 it's a shared vision. And you know, it's not like 1:18:25.160 --> 1:18:27.640 one or the other. It's if we can share a 1:18:27.760 --> 1:18:30.800 vision of what we hope to accomplish on, that's what 1:18:30.840 --> 1:18:34.080 you really hope for. But it's not always possible for you. 1:18:34.760 --> 1:18:35.920 In getting to know. 1:18:38.080 --> 1:18:40.760 Some of your clients, do you often get to the 1:18:40.800 --> 1:18:43.439 heart of the matter, like are they talking at all 1:18:43.479 --> 1:18:47.519 about like, hey, maybe I should see Like, I don't 1:18:47.560 --> 1:18:52.080 know how prevalent seeing a therapist was to suggest in 1:18:52.200 --> 1:18:55.719 nineteen eighty two or nineteen you know, now, of course, 1:18:55.760 --> 1:18:58.040 you know we throw everyone like therapy in the face, 1:18:58.080 --> 1:19:01.840 and yes, mental health is everything in twenty twenty two, 1:19:01.920 --> 1:19:06.880 but back in nineteen eighty three, nineteen eighty four, if 1:19:06.960 --> 1:19:10.400 you since that an artist is sort of stuck in 1:19:10.479 --> 1:19:14.240 that place, like what what solutions are there that aren't 1:19:14.360 --> 1:19:17.160 you know what's perceived as embarrassing as oh, maybe I'd 1:19:17.200 --> 1:19:19.840 need to see somebody, you know, therapy wise. 1:19:19.920 --> 1:19:21.880 No, I think there was there was up There were 1:19:21.920 --> 1:19:26.840 times when I asked people, you know, have you given 1:19:26.880 --> 1:19:31.640 any thought to getting some help, you know, seeing a therapist, 1:19:31.960 --> 1:19:34.960 or you know, to really do you even think you 1:19:35.000 --> 1:19:36.800 have a problem? I means it seems like you do 1:19:36.880 --> 1:19:40.400 have a problem, you know. You know, even with Don Cornelius, 1:19:40.880 --> 1:19:45.800 you know, he had a brain surgery and it made 1:19:45.880 --> 1:19:47.520 him unstable. 1:19:48.560 --> 1:19:50.320 So you were there in eighty three when he had 1:19:50.360 --> 1:19:51.160 his aneurysm. 1:19:52.280 --> 1:19:56.800 Yeah, I wasn't close to him then, but by then, 1:19:57.040 --> 1:20:02.280 let me think, I'm trying to think when was the 1:20:02.320 --> 1:20:08.080 first soul train music Awards eighty seven. Yeah, so he had. Yeah. 1:20:08.120 --> 1:20:11.040 So it was after the you know, it was shortly 1:20:11.080 --> 1:20:15.040 after that that I became more I started doing pr 1:20:15.120 --> 1:20:18.720 for him. After the brain animism, he told me about it. 1:20:19.040 --> 1:20:22.120 But then when we were doing the Soul Train Awards, 1:20:22.880 --> 1:20:25.120 and I've worked on that show for at least five 1:20:25.200 --> 1:20:29.920 years or so, I remember him telling me that it 1:20:30.000 --> 1:20:34.120 made him moody, and sometimes he wasn't. He didn't know 1:20:34.160 --> 1:20:37.439 how he was going to react to certain things, and 1:20:37.960 --> 1:20:40.719 you know, you could see it, you know, actually happen 1:20:40.840 --> 1:20:43.599 in real time a couple of times. The different things 1:20:43.640 --> 1:20:47.240 that he did that I think, you know, contribute were 1:20:47.439 --> 1:20:50.120 influenced by that. And I remember asking him once, have 1:20:50.240 --> 1:20:57.120 you thought about going back and getting another surgery done? 1:20:57.280 --> 1:21:00.439 And he said, I have thought about it and talk to 1:21:00.479 --> 1:21:04.160 the doctors, but the reality is they couldn't guarantee him 1:21:04.280 --> 1:21:08.400 that he would get better, and it also might even 1:21:08.439 --> 1:21:12.080 be worse. So, you know, these are things that people, 1:21:12.320 --> 1:21:15.120 you know, I don't think he told everybody that, but 1:21:15.160 --> 1:21:18.720 that's something I can say he shared with me, I mean, 1:21:18.760 --> 1:21:20.800 and just for him, you know, because he wanted me 1:21:20.840 --> 1:21:24.680 to understand and I was trying to understand him and 1:21:26.320 --> 1:21:28.559 we had that kind of friendship. I mean, he wasn't 1:21:28.600 --> 1:21:31.000 like a total open book with me, but there were 1:21:31.080 --> 1:21:33.080 times when we would sit down and talk for a 1:21:33.160 --> 1:21:35.640 couple of hours and he would tell me, you know, 1:21:35.720 --> 1:21:39.200 the different things, this frustration with just black people and 1:21:39.200 --> 1:21:43.840 black artists that wouldn't support him, and you know, and 1:21:44.000 --> 1:21:46.040 I always tried to help with any artist that I 1:21:46.160 --> 1:21:48.800 was managing or whatever. Like, you know, we got to 1:21:48.840 --> 1:21:51.120 do the Soul Training Music Awards, you know, because I 1:21:51.160 --> 1:21:54.120 knew how hard it was, you know, when artists crossed 1:21:54.160 --> 1:21:56.800 over a lot of them forgot that, you know, someone 1:21:56.960 --> 1:21:59.400 was the one who put him in a position to 1:21:59.439 --> 1:22:00.720 be on national television. 1:22:01.560 --> 1:22:03.599 How long did you work with this whole train awards, 1:22:03.960 --> 1:22:05.960 the music awards. 1:22:06.160 --> 1:22:10.280 Up until probably the first five years, I think, or 1:22:10.360 --> 1:22:12.040 six or seven years something like that. 1:22:12.320 --> 1:22:16.759 So you're leased there for ninety one ninety two. Yeah, Okay, 1:22:17.400 --> 1:22:20.639 I'm gonna debunk a major theory. I have a major 1:22:20.680 --> 1:22:26.920 theory that I'm afraid to ask you this question because 1:22:26.960 --> 1:22:29.160 I think I know the answer. But I'm gonna ask 1:22:29.200 --> 1:22:33.200 this question anyway. So let's let's go February of nineteen 1:22:33.240 --> 1:22:39.400 ninety two. This is the infamous Michael Jackson crutches period 1:22:39.880 --> 1:22:42.679 where if you remember he did remember the time sitting down, 1:22:43.720 --> 1:22:46.200 This is what I think happened, and all you have 1:22:46.240 --> 1:22:48.800 to do is verify if it's true or not. All right, 1:22:48.840 --> 1:22:51.080 So based on our EMC search story, you remember the 1:22:51.160 --> 1:22:55.920 MC search story where hammer took it right, took a 1:22:56.040 --> 1:23:01.360 hit out right story right, and then it wound up 1:23:01.360 --> 1:23:07.000 in Bob Jones's hands where he had to they had 1:23:07.040 --> 1:23:10.200 to manufacture and Artists of the Decade award for Michael 1:23:11.040 --> 1:23:17.560 to win, so that Michael concepcion. Okay, So that was 1:23:17.600 --> 1:23:19.920 the American Music Awards, which of course is a Dick 1:23:19.960 --> 1:23:21.120 Clark platform. 1:23:21.640 --> 1:23:22.800 That was also eighty nine. 1:23:23.520 --> 1:23:29.080 So in February of ninety two, Dangerous is out and 1:23:29.160 --> 1:23:32.320 Michael is being given a Lifetime Achievement Award or whatever, 1:23:32.360 --> 1:23:35.360 like a made up award in Eddie Murphy and Elizabeth 1:23:35.400 --> 1:23:39.760 Taylor are presenting it to him, and Michael has crutches on, 1:23:40.760 --> 1:23:44.080 and you know, sympathy. This is like right after the 1:23:44.600 --> 1:23:48.080 Oprah interview and everything. So this is like a brief 1:23:48.120 --> 1:23:52.920 period where like empathy is really on Michael Jackson's side 1:23:53.120 --> 1:23:56.759 and he performs he was supposed to perform. 1:23:56.880 --> 1:23:57.599 Remember, the time. 1:23:57.680 --> 1:24:00.479 But you know, he has to sit in a wheelchair 1:24:00.560 --> 1:24:03.320 perform and he can't move whatever, so he's just basically 1:24:04.040 --> 1:24:06.880 performing from the top of you know, he's just used 1:24:06.880 --> 1:24:10.599 his souldiers in his neck and whatever. I don't buy 1:24:10.640 --> 1:24:16.240 that one bit. I believe that that was all. I 1:24:16.240 --> 1:24:21.160 don't believe that Michael Jackson injured his foot and rehearsals. 1:24:21.600 --> 1:24:22.559 But I smell. 1:24:23.720 --> 1:24:28.240 I smell only because Michael also had to do Dick 1:24:28.280 --> 1:24:32.160 Clark's American Music Awards for the same thing. And I 1:24:32.240 --> 1:24:36.479 know that there's a rivalry between Don and Dick. 1:24:37.280 --> 1:24:38.960 So well, what are you proposing there? 1:24:39.200 --> 1:24:42.240 Come on, I I I'm calling foul. 1:24:42.520 --> 1:24:48.000 I believe that there was a situation between Don and 1:24:48.080 --> 1:24:51.840 Dick Clark American Music Awards and SoulTrain Awards, which this 1:24:52.000 --> 1:24:56.000 is Hatfield McCoy territory, and I think the compromise was 1:24:56.080 --> 1:25:00.960 made that. Okay, I wanted Tom I saw, but I'll 1:25:01.000 --> 1:25:02.559 sit in a wheelchair and perform it. 1:25:03.840 --> 1:25:06.479 It was a throne, by the way, It wasn't a throne, 1:25:06.479 --> 1:25:06.840 but he was. 1:25:08.120 --> 1:25:11.960 Yeah, but all right, can you my closest. 1:25:12.120 --> 1:25:16.400 I don't I remember the video because it was like 1:25:16.520 --> 1:25:20.680 twelve minutes long, right, I don't. I don't. The performance 1:25:20.720 --> 1:25:23.080 doesn't stand out to me, but I just remember that 1:25:23.120 --> 1:25:25.040 there was a lot of work that went in to 1:25:25.080 --> 1:25:28.400 get Michael to do the show, and that at that time, 1:25:28.479 --> 1:25:32.080 you know, Michael had so much clout that he demanded 1:25:32.160 --> 1:25:35.800 he put together a video that was twelve minutes long 1:25:35.840 --> 1:25:40.240 about himself. He submitted it to If you look back, 1:25:40.600 --> 1:25:45.840 it was perfectly the Grammys, American Music Awards and his 1:25:47.479 --> 1:25:50.280 and the Soul Train Awards had to use that to 1:25:50.400 --> 1:25:54.439 introduce him. Then that's when after the video plays, then 1:25:54.640 --> 1:25:59.479 Eddie Murphy comes out. He made that a mandatory thing 1:26:00.160 --> 1:26:02.720 that all those major awards shows had to do that 1:26:02.800 --> 1:26:05.799 in order to get him on. And there was always 1:26:05.880 --> 1:26:09.759 a lot of there was back and forth. If certain 1:26:09.800 --> 1:26:13.280 black acts did American Bandstand, don didn't want him on 1:26:13.320 --> 1:26:16.840 the show, and then the other way around, a big 1:26:16.880 --> 1:26:20.000 act did soul Train first, then did Clark wouldn't want 1:26:20.040 --> 1:26:22.200 him on the show. And this went on the whole 1:26:22.240 --> 1:26:26.320 time that ours working. Really Yep, it wasn't. It wasn't 1:26:26.400 --> 1:26:29.479 just Michael. It was a lot of how the time. 1:26:29.600 --> 1:26:34.360 I became aware of you, of course during the situation 1:26:35.000 --> 1:26:38.559 with your ex wife having been around at the time 1:26:39.840 --> 1:26:43.559 in nineteen eighty three eighty four, you were brought aboard, 1:26:44.000 --> 1:26:48.439 I guess to sort of handle her press and whatnot. 1:26:48.479 --> 1:26:52.680 Can you talk about the situation of how you were 1:26:52.720 --> 1:26:59.240 brought into handle obviously for those that don't know, you know, 1:26:59.439 --> 1:27:03.000 it's amazing to me how you ushered as her manager, 1:27:03.160 --> 1:27:06.439 like what would have been a tarnished career, Like you 1:27:06.600 --> 1:27:13.920 managed to turn Vanessa Williams's entire trajectory around and made 1:27:13.920 --> 1:27:18.200 her way bigger than whatever being a Miss America could 1:27:18.200 --> 1:27:21.080 have promised her. But how did you get brought into 1:27:21.160 --> 1:27:22.680 the organization to fix it? 1:27:23.280 --> 1:27:28.200 There are two really huge misnomers about that whole situation, 1:27:28.840 --> 1:27:30.400 which I'm going to clarify for you. 1:27:30.840 --> 1:27:33.760 Yes, that have been part of history. 1:27:33.439 --> 1:27:38.720 And wrongly reported as they're just not authentic. One was 1:27:38.760 --> 1:27:42.599 that Vanessa had a career. When I met her, she 1:27:42.640 --> 1:27:46.320 didn't have a career. She was a beauty pageant winner. 1:27:47.200 --> 1:27:49.479 She won a Miss America pageant, and what made it 1:27:49.600 --> 1:27:53.920 more significant for her than other pageant winners prior to 1:27:53.960 --> 1:27:56.040 her was the fact that she was black. So she 1:27:56.160 --> 1:27:58.760 was the first black Miss America in the sixteen three 1:27:58.840 --> 1:28:02.080 year history of the pageant. Right, she was a sophomore 1:28:02.200 --> 1:28:05.439 in college, and some woman from the New York State 1:28:05.520 --> 1:28:08.960 pageant saw her performing a play and said, wow, you 1:28:09.560 --> 1:28:11.479 know you would be great. Have you ever thought of 1:28:11.479 --> 1:28:14.360 being in a pageant? Her parents were school teachers, she 1:28:14.439 --> 1:28:18.160 had never been. It wasn't a career to being pageants, right, 1:28:18.160 --> 1:28:21.679 And when they told her that if you win Miss America, 1:28:21.720 --> 1:28:25.720 you get twenty five thousand dollars in scholarship money, she said, yeah, sure, 1:28:25.760 --> 1:28:28.559 I'll give it a try. So she ended up winning 1:28:28.680 --> 1:28:33.480 Miss New York. And then when you win, you automatically 1:28:33.520 --> 1:28:36.719 get a bid to compete in the Miss America pageant, 1:28:36.960 --> 1:28:40.360 And so that all happened in six months. And once 1:28:40.400 --> 1:28:46.920 she won, I was representing an artist, a painter named 1:28:46.920 --> 1:28:50.400 Phoebe Beasley who's pretty well known, and she does, you know, 1:28:50.479 --> 1:28:54.719 amazing collages and stuff. And she knew a guy named 1:28:54.720 --> 1:28:57.760 Dennis Doudell who was a handler for the NASA. He 1:28:57.840 --> 1:29:00.719 was really just a neighbor. Because her parents were school teachers, 1:29:00.720 --> 1:29:04.320 and because she was the only black Miss America, they 1:29:04.320 --> 1:29:07.960 were being besieged by requests from black organizations to have 1:29:08.280 --> 1:29:12.320 Vanessa come and you know, make appearances, public appearances and such. 1:29:12.920 --> 1:29:16.800 So they asked for some help. And Dennis was a 1:29:17.080 --> 1:29:20.080 corporate lawyer for American can and he said, sure, I'll 1:29:20.080 --> 1:29:23.439 try to help out. And so he was really and 1:29:23.520 --> 1:29:26.120 Vanessa did want to have a career in the entertainment 1:29:26.120 --> 1:29:29.400 business once she finished her reign as Miss America. And 1:29:29.479 --> 1:29:33.519 so I, uh, my friend Phoebe, who was a client 1:29:33.560 --> 1:29:36.200 at the time, said hey, I reco wanted to know 1:29:36.200 --> 1:29:38.680 if I could recommend you to this guy. Do you 1:29:38.680 --> 1:29:41.479 know who Miss it who Vanessa Williams is And I said, yeah, yeah, 1:29:41.520 --> 1:29:43.640 the black girl that won Miss America. I know she is. 1:29:44.200 --> 1:29:46.320 And he said, well, she wants to go into the 1:29:46.400 --> 1:29:48.679 entertainment business. And I said, you should talk to Ramon. 1:29:48.720 --> 1:29:51.040 He'd be great to add to your team. And so 1:29:51.120 --> 1:29:54.960 I met with Dennis one time and he liked me, 1:29:55.120 --> 1:29:58.320 and I would like to introduce you to Vanessa. She's 1:29:58.360 --> 1:30:01.559 on the road every day right now. And I said, yeah, sure. 1:30:01.640 --> 1:30:03.640 You know, in fact I was. I was living in 1:30:03.760 --> 1:30:05.519 La then I flew to New York. I had launched 1:30:05.560 --> 1:30:07.320 with him in New York, and I said, yeah, I'd 1:30:07.320 --> 1:30:09.639 be happy to meet with her. And you know, because 1:30:09.800 --> 1:30:13.280 for me just being a beauty pageant when even though 1:30:13.280 --> 1:30:15.720 it was Miss America, I didn't think that was an 1:30:15.800 --> 1:30:19.920 automatic ticket to being successful in entertainment business. So but 1:30:20.000 --> 1:30:21.559 I said, you know, yeah, if you guys are putting 1:30:21.560 --> 1:30:23.559 together a team, you know, I'd be interested to see 1:30:24.040 --> 1:30:27.920 what can happen. And then I didn't hear from him 1:30:28.000 --> 1:30:31.759 for quite a while, and then this was in July, 1:30:33.000 --> 1:30:36.719 probably mid July. I heard from him and he told 1:30:36.720 --> 1:30:40.439 me that he needed my advice on something, and so 1:30:40.560 --> 1:30:43.240 I said, yeah, sure, what do you need And he said, well, 1:30:43.360 --> 1:30:47.599 I heard there's some rumors of some pictures of Vanessa 1:30:47.680 --> 1:30:50.600 and I don't know if there if it's legit or not. 1:30:50.720 --> 1:30:53.479 And I said, well, if you don't know if they're legit, 1:30:53.560 --> 1:30:56.000 then don't say anything, don't do anything. You know, I'll 1:30:56.000 --> 1:30:58.799 see if I can nose around and find out anything. 1:30:59.439 --> 1:31:02.680 And then a couple of weeks past I told him 1:31:02.680 --> 1:31:05.720 I hadn't found out. I couldn't. I didn't hear any 1:31:05.760 --> 1:31:09.680 wind of it. And then he said, well, the pictures exist. 1:31:10.000 --> 1:31:13.600 What should I do? And I said, well, have have 1:31:13.680 --> 1:31:16.920 you seen the pictures as the pageant seen the pictures? 1:31:17.000 --> 1:31:19.360 He said no, I don't know if they have or not. 1:31:19.479 --> 1:31:22.880 And I again told him, you know, don't say anything 1:31:22.920 --> 1:31:24.840 if you don't really know what you're up against, then 1:31:25.000 --> 1:31:28.240 there's no way curve what the collateral gamage will be 1:31:28.560 --> 1:31:31.280 if you go out too soon in any kind of crisis, 1:31:31.320 --> 1:31:33.800 you need to know what you're up against. And so 1:31:33.960 --> 1:31:40.599 ultimately the pageant did see the pictures and this guy, 1:31:40.680 --> 1:31:43.160 Albert Marx, who was the CEO of the pageant and 1:31:43.240 --> 1:31:45.360 had been for I don't know fifty years or whatever, 1:31:46.040 --> 1:31:53.080 he requested that the NASSA design. Didn't demand it, he 1:31:53.200 --> 1:31:55.320 requested it. And that's another thing that a lot of 1:31:55.360 --> 1:31:59.479 people whenever it's been reported that she was forced to resign, 1:31:59.520 --> 1:32:02.479 she wasn't forced to resign. She was requested. The reason 1:32:02.520 --> 1:32:05.760 they requested it because he didn't know legally whether they 1:32:05.800 --> 1:32:08.640 could actually fire her, and he didn't want to go 1:32:08.840 --> 1:32:11.840 into litigation about it. That's why he never said it. 1:32:12.080 --> 1:32:16.200 So he gave her seventy two hours to respond. And 1:32:16.280 --> 1:32:19.519 that's when Dennis called me and said, what should I 1:32:19.520 --> 1:32:22.320 I said, well, now we can do something. Now we 1:32:22.400 --> 1:32:26.320 have Do you want me to control this and tell 1:32:26.360 --> 1:32:28.720 you guys what to do, or or do you want 1:32:28.720 --> 1:32:30.880 me just to tell you whatever whatever you want me 1:32:30.880 --> 1:32:32.559 to do, I'll try to help out. He goes no, no, 1:32:32.600 --> 1:32:34.839 I want you to manage it, take care of it. Whatever. 1:32:34.960 --> 1:32:39.559 So on Friday afternoon in La, I was, I was. 1:32:39.800 --> 1:32:42.080 I had seventy two hours basically from the time that 1:32:42.120 --> 1:32:44.959 he had not announced it, which was around eleven o'clock 1:32:46.240 --> 1:32:50.080 on Friday morning New York Times. By time I found 1:32:50.120 --> 1:32:53.280 out about it, it was a little later. And so 1:32:53.320 --> 1:32:54.640 I said, here's what I think we should do. We 1:32:54.680 --> 1:32:57.040 should have a press conference in New York. I'll put 1:32:57.080 --> 1:32:58.880 it together. I don't care what you know. If she's 1:32:58.880 --> 1:33:00.720 going to resign, she doesn't really, then I need to 1:33:00.760 --> 1:33:02.880 know that right now. But I need to put together 1:33:03.920 --> 1:33:06.800 a photo news alert and get you know, get a 1:33:06.800 --> 1:33:09.360 commitment and see if we have enough press people that 1:33:09.400 --> 1:33:12.000 will come out to the press conference. And then what 1:33:12.040 --> 1:33:15.559 we'll do is we'll have one statement and that's what 1:33:15.560 --> 1:33:15.880 we'll do. 1:33:16.439 --> 1:33:19.840 Can I ask, was there not a person like the 1:33:19.960 --> 1:33:22.840 sisty person that's trying to like blackmail, like I have 1:33:22.880 --> 1:33:25.719 these photos and I want, you know, one hundred thousand 1:33:25.800 --> 1:33:26.720 dollars or nothing like? 1:33:26.880 --> 1:33:27.160 Was there? 1:33:28.120 --> 1:33:33.040 No? No, GUCCIONI had already uh uh had the magazine 1:33:33.160 --> 1:33:35.559 had her picture on the cover. That's what we saw. 1:33:36.080 --> 1:33:37.280 He was about to par so. 1:33:37.240 --> 1:33:40.160 He just he printed it with it so. 1:33:39.960 --> 1:33:45.000 Sat He claimed that he had a model release. So 1:33:45.080 --> 1:33:48.599 he had been planning this whole thing. He had planned 1:33:48.600 --> 1:33:53.799 it to happen before she ended her rock her reign 1:33:53.840 --> 1:33:57.519 as missing. We wanted it to happen before the next 1:33:57.640 --> 1:34:02.559 Miss America was in, you know, crowned, which was going 1:34:02.600 --> 1:34:05.639 to be a few weeks away. So there wasn't six 1:34:05.680 --> 1:34:06.400 weeks left. 1:34:06.840 --> 1:34:09.720 There wasn't at least a pre phone call, like much 1:34:09.960 --> 1:34:12.080 how much were me in that destroy your life right now? 1:34:12.120 --> 1:34:12.800 And none of that? 1:34:13.600 --> 1:34:15.679 Now he connived and planned the whole thing. 1:34:16.120 --> 1:34:17.439 And how was she this whole time? 1:34:17.439 --> 1:34:17.519 Like? 1:34:17.560 --> 1:34:20.439 What were her feelings? Was she angry? Was she like, well, I. 1:34:20.400 --> 1:34:22.799 Hadn't met her. I had never even met her. Wow, 1:34:23.240 --> 1:34:26.599 So what happened is she ended up confessing to Dennis 1:34:27.000 --> 1:34:29.360 that she did take the pictures, but she didn't sign 1:34:29.360 --> 1:34:33.240 a model release. And so that part I knew about 1:34:33.560 --> 1:34:36.760 before I came involved, But I literally got involved with 1:34:36.920 --> 1:34:41.320 seventy to two hours. My job was to come to 1:34:41.479 --> 1:34:45.080 a solution on how we're going to deal with this announcement, 1:34:45.160 --> 1:34:47.320 and I suggested the announcement so that she could go 1:34:47.360 --> 1:34:50.120 on with her life one time don't answer any questions 1:34:50.120 --> 1:34:52.120 from the press. You're going to do a statement. I'm 1:34:52.120 --> 1:34:53.920 going to hand the statement out to all the press. 1:34:54.320 --> 1:34:57.200 I hired an affiliate company in New York, a good 1:34:57.200 --> 1:34:59.599 friend of mine to help me set it up, and 1:34:59.640 --> 1:35:02.200 then night I took a red Eye to New York 1:35:02.720 --> 1:35:04.920 and on the way this guy came picked me up 1:35:04.960 --> 1:35:08.040 at the airport at JFK. I drove out to Milwood 1:35:08.160 --> 1:35:12.400 where they live in Westchester County, and I got away there, 1:35:13.040 --> 1:35:15.040 Dinnis told me there was going to be a lawsuit. 1:35:15.479 --> 1:35:18.880 I go, okay, that's a lawsuit, hunht. So we got it. 1:35:18.920 --> 1:35:21.000 So now I'm finding out that I'm gonna have to 1:35:21.000 --> 1:35:23.280 deal with lawyers and they're going to have input on 1:35:23.360 --> 1:35:26.720 what the press statement can be. And when I got 1:35:26.720 --> 1:35:32.759 to Millwood, there was over four hundred and fifty media people, 1:35:32.840 --> 1:35:39.360 like an encampment taking over her neighborhood, across the street 1:35:39.439 --> 1:35:41.960 and everything. And that was the first time and you 1:35:42.000 --> 1:35:44.720 said that, did I have fear? I had fear then, 1:35:44.880 --> 1:35:47.240 because I said, Wow, this is a much bigger thing 1:35:47.320 --> 1:35:50.160 than I realized, because in La you know, it wasn't 1:35:50.520 --> 1:35:53.719 when I was in I just didn't even the fact 1:35:53.720 --> 1:35:55.800 that she won Miss America was not It was like 1:35:55.880 --> 1:35:59.080 one page picture on the front page of the La Times. 1:35:59.120 --> 1:36:01.519 But in New York because she was from New York. 1:36:01.920 --> 1:36:04.439 She was missed New York. It was huge, and so 1:36:04.520 --> 1:36:06.640 all these people were waiting and they didn't even know 1:36:06.720 --> 1:36:09.479 where she was. She was at home, but they were 1:36:09.520 --> 1:36:12.080 just waiting to get a glimpse and everything. And so 1:36:12.200 --> 1:36:15.679 when I went in there, I met the parents and 1:36:16.160 --> 1:36:19.280 I met Vanessa probably at around eight o'clock in the morning, 1:36:20.000 --> 1:36:23.479 and mostly you know, then the lawyers showed up, and 1:36:23.880 --> 1:36:27.439 at that time everybody wanted to uh said that they 1:36:27.479 --> 1:36:29.880 were going to fight and they weren't going to let 1:36:29.880 --> 1:36:34.200 her resign, that they were gonna But my feeling was 1:36:34.439 --> 1:36:38.599 based on the fact that there was only six weeks 1:36:38.680 --> 1:36:42.479 left before the national cast, and I felt in my 1:36:42.640 --> 1:36:49.120 heart that the pageant was not going to support. Yeah, 1:36:49.120 --> 1:36:51.760 they weren't going to let her, you know, be on 1:36:51.840 --> 1:36:54.639 that show for one And I didn't think that there 1:36:54.680 --> 1:36:57.599 could be an injunction. You know, whether they could get 1:36:57.600 --> 1:36:59.639 an injunction or not, they're not going to let her 1:37:00.760 --> 1:37:04.760 perform any of her services that she was supposed to 1:37:04.920 --> 1:37:08.599 deliver as Miss America. So why fight for what are 1:37:08.600 --> 1:37:11.160 you fighting for? You have nothing. The only thing left 1:37:11.160 --> 1:37:12.479 for you to do is to be on that show 1:37:12.479 --> 1:37:14.680 and give the other girl the new crown, you know, 1:37:14.720 --> 1:37:16.960 And is that really worth it? Just go on with 1:37:17.000 --> 1:37:19.040 your life. But I wasn't in charge, you know. I 1:37:19.080 --> 1:37:23.000 mean that they had lawyers, the parents had input. So 1:37:23.080 --> 1:37:25.360 I was I said, Hey, whatever you guys want to do, 1:37:25.560 --> 1:37:29.759 I'm going to frame this statement to represent Vanessa's voice, 1:37:30.080 --> 1:37:32.000 you know. And so I worked with Vnessa over the 1:37:32.000 --> 1:37:35.000 course of that, within that seventy two hours, and we 1:37:35.080 --> 1:37:37.720 bantered about with the lawyers, and at one time they 1:37:37.720 --> 1:37:39.439 were saying, well, she can't say this and she can't 1:37:39.479 --> 1:37:41.639 say that. And say, well, look, guys, if she can't 1:37:41.840 --> 1:37:45.120 say anything, then let's just cancel the press conference. You 1:37:45.160 --> 1:37:47.800 guys can do your lawyer shit and just make a 1:37:47.880 --> 1:37:51.200 lawyer legalese announcement and just it'll make it like a 1:37:51.280 --> 1:37:54.680 law release instead of a press release. And I'll be 1:37:54.680 --> 1:37:56.680 happy to service that for you guys. And then then 1:37:56.720 --> 1:37:59.000 we changed and we were back and forth, and then 1:37:59.080 --> 1:38:02.719 ultimately in the book, I explained what everything need to happen. 1:38:02.840 --> 1:38:06.439 But she did end up. You know, the world knows 1:38:06.479 --> 1:38:10.040 that she did end up resigning, but she had the 1:38:10.080 --> 1:38:12.280 option not to. That's the thing that I think a 1:38:12.280 --> 1:38:14.720 lot of people don't realize. They didn't force her out, 1:38:14.760 --> 1:38:16.840 but she decided to do and I think she did 1:38:16.840 --> 1:38:17.400 the right thing. 1:38:18.960 --> 1:38:22.960 Two questions, two minuted questions. One only because I went 1:38:23.000 --> 1:38:26.280 to school with her. Did she ever have a conversation 1:38:26.320 --> 1:38:33.360 with Susette? So Susette Charles and it was this Jersey 1:38:33.360 --> 1:38:36.880 but she's really Philly And I went to school like 1:38:37.360 --> 1:38:40.160 she was my sister's best friend. 1:38:40.200 --> 1:38:43.760 So we all you really know, Oh, I definitely. I mean, 1:38:43.760 --> 1:38:44.120 I'm sorry. 1:38:44.160 --> 1:38:46.080 I was cheering for Suzette the whole time, but you know, 1:38:48.280 --> 1:38:52.200 but that's cool cheering for anybody's. 1:38:51.360 --> 1:38:53.920 African American as well. She's black. She's a black woman 1:38:53.960 --> 1:38:54.280 as well. 1:38:54.360 --> 1:38:58.360 So was there Did they ever have a conversation about 1:38:58.400 --> 1:39:00.479 this during this time period or now? 1:39:00.720 --> 1:39:01.880 Both camps were separate. 1:39:02.439 --> 1:39:04.479 They were both separate. And if I would have been 1:39:04.560 --> 1:39:07.240 Suzanne's manager, I would have told her don't accept it. 1:39:08.000 --> 1:39:12.040 I always now hindsight, we would have been more famous, 1:39:12.400 --> 1:39:13.719 she would have been more famous. 1:39:15.040 --> 1:39:18.000 Accepted it because it's like one black woman, like you're 1:39:18.000 --> 1:39:19.920 gonna do this to a black woman? And then I'm 1:39:19.920 --> 1:39:22.360 going to side in there. And she never I mean, 1:39:22.439 --> 1:39:24.320 she was only Missed America for six weeks. 1:39:24.360 --> 1:39:24.840 Six weeks. 1:39:24.880 --> 1:39:29.640 Why would you accept that like peons like pennies? And 1:39:29.680 --> 1:39:31.840 she never got to do after that. I mean, you know, 1:39:31.920 --> 1:39:34.080 she's not one of the most you know, I mean 1:39:35.320 --> 1:39:38.400 Miss Americas are not recognized, but Susie Charles is probably 1:39:38.400 --> 1:39:40.840 the one of the least recognized. Because she accepted that. 1:39:40.960 --> 1:39:42.840 Well, everybody ain't have a ramone, so. 1:39:44.160 --> 1:39:47.320 I said, no, don't be more famous. So she would 1:39:47.320 --> 1:39:49.360 have been all over the news. She could have her 1:39:49.360 --> 1:39:51.880 own press conference to say why she didn't accept it? 1:39:57.640 --> 1:40:02.400 What were your feelings when I I guess, I guess 1:40:02.439 --> 1:40:06.599 thirty seven years later, they tried to pull a mea 1:40:06.680 --> 1:40:12.680 kopa and say, Okay, we were wrong and that was 1:40:12.720 --> 1:40:16.120 tone deaf of us, and we want to reinstate you 1:40:16.200 --> 1:40:20.040 back as Miss America. And I assume she declined it. 1:40:20.160 --> 1:40:26.679 But we're even aware that maybe seven eight years ago 1:40:27.160 --> 1:40:31.679 that that organization actually yeah, yeah, I wanted to write 1:40:31.680 --> 1:40:32.400 them wrong about it. 1:40:32.520 --> 1:40:36.400 She called me, she asked me what I thought she. 1:40:36.320 --> 1:40:40.720 Should do, and you told her still no, I. 1:40:40.680 --> 1:40:43.960 Said, no, why would you go back to them? Yeah? 1:40:44.880 --> 1:40:47.400 But you know she she did. I mean I was 1:40:47.520 --> 1:40:49.080 I think that she did it for her parents for 1:40:49.160 --> 1:40:55.479 a mom d doing it. She ended up supporting them. 1:40:55.520 --> 1:40:58.040 She didn't actually do what they wanted, but they did 1:40:58.160 --> 1:41:01.760 reach it. Uh uh. You know she's she's held in 1:41:01.800 --> 1:41:04.519 a different light now than she was. And I'd say, 1:41:04.680 --> 1:41:06.760 it's up to you. I wouldn't do it ifire you, 1:41:06.840 --> 1:41:09.599 but you know, it's your life. And if that's if 1:41:09.640 --> 1:41:11.240 you guys want to if you want to have peace 1:41:11.680 --> 1:41:14.120 and you get some benefit out of it, then do it. 1:41:15.200 --> 1:41:17.880 Miss America of All Times, isn't you mean former Miss 1:41:17.880 --> 1:41:18.639 America of All Time? 1:41:18.920 --> 1:41:19.160 Yeah? 1:41:19.240 --> 1:41:21.880 Wait, but it took a long time, you know, it 1:41:21.920 --> 1:41:24.160 took a long time for all that stuff to really 1:41:25.400 --> 1:41:27.120 put it behind her. A lot of people say any 1:41:27.120 --> 1:41:29.320 publicity is good publicity, and I don't want from that 1:41:29.360 --> 1:41:33.120 school of thought. It took over a decade before she 1:41:33.520 --> 1:41:39.240 could actually be listed by her name only, meaning for 1:41:39.320 --> 1:41:43.000 ten years, every time she was in the paper, there 1:41:43.080 --> 1:41:47.599 was some reference to farm former New New Pictures missing. 1:41:47.840 --> 1:41:49.720 It was like a tag and it's like, you know, 1:41:49.760 --> 1:41:52.080 having a monkey on your back only was in writing. 1:41:52.120 --> 1:41:54.639 It was like a little literally like a brand tag, 1:41:55.400 --> 1:41:58.800 you know, new Miss America forced to resign because of 1:41:58.920 --> 1:42:03.599 new pictures I'm wordying. It was always every time, you know, 1:42:03.680 --> 1:42:05.360 and I said, if we could, you know, for me, 1:42:05.520 --> 1:42:08.040 my biggest goal was if I could just have one 1:42:08.120 --> 1:42:12.599 person say, just use her name without any reference to 1:42:12.680 --> 1:42:16.160 the past. And it finally happened. A journalist by the 1:42:16.240 --> 1:42:20.280 name of David Rich who's a well known Broadway critic, 1:42:20.720 --> 1:42:24.639 when she was in Kissed as Spider Woman for her review. 1:42:25.320 --> 1:42:29.839 He was the first one really that didn't use the reference. 1:42:29.960 --> 1:42:34.280 And fucking aim Man, we finally won. We got your 1:42:34.400 --> 1:42:35.240 name back. 1:42:35.920 --> 1:42:42.400 You know, watching the initial launch of you Know Her 1:42:42.400 --> 1:42:46.200 eighty seven, the Right of the album and the comfort 1:42:46.280 --> 1:42:51.599 Zone album, and how that, how you just really managed 1:42:51.640 --> 1:42:56.080 to do the impossible, which is like anyone associated with 1:42:56.160 --> 1:42:58.599 Miss America, it's almost like that would have been a 1:42:58.640 --> 1:43:05.720 sure shot way to almost like career suicide. But somehow 1:43:06.240 --> 1:43:11.720 you managed to make her into a household word and 1:43:12.240 --> 1:43:16.280 an international star. So could you just describe what the 1:43:16.800 --> 1:43:18.440 well basic strategy. 1:43:18.960 --> 1:43:21.400 I continued to be a publicist for a while. 1:43:21.520 --> 1:43:23.879 And I even just a publicist, never a manager. 1:43:24.080 --> 1:43:26.479 No, no, I was a manager a much longer time than 1:43:26.520 --> 1:43:28.719 I was a publicist. I was a publicist for less 1:43:28.760 --> 1:43:31.400 than six months probably or maybe less than a year, 1:43:32.160 --> 1:43:35.960 but I was a manager for over ten years. But 1:43:36.040 --> 1:43:39.639 what ended up happening was I didn't want to manage 1:43:39.680 --> 1:43:45.320 her because I had worked with so many other people 1:43:45.439 --> 1:43:50.080 who were either their mother or their husband, or different 1:43:50.120 --> 1:43:52.599 people in the business who were managed by their mother 1:43:52.760 --> 1:43:55.200 or their husbands or whatever. And I said, I never 1:43:55.320 --> 1:43:56.800 I don't want to be that. I don't want to 1:43:56.800 --> 1:44:00.679 be an appendage to the NASA as a manager. And 1:44:02.000 --> 1:44:04.280 I told her that, and I said, but I'll find 1:44:04.280 --> 1:44:06.479 you a good manager. I'll help you, you know. And 1:44:06.560 --> 1:44:10.680 I tried to find her a good manager, and everybody said, 1:44:10.800 --> 1:44:14.800 you know, no, And so finally she did have a 1:44:14.800 --> 1:44:17.479 woman by the name of Dolores Robinson, was a pretty 1:44:17.520 --> 1:44:22.240 well respected manager in the business, and they didn't work out. 1:44:22.520 --> 1:44:28.040 And then one day she just said, well, you know, 1:44:28.040 --> 1:44:30.240 why don't you just manage me? I come to you 1:44:30.320 --> 1:44:32.960 for everything anyways, I'm not going to do anything without 1:44:32.960 --> 1:44:35.360 getting you advice, So why don't you just do it? 1:44:36.200 --> 1:44:39.680 And I finally, you know, I mean, you don't want 1:44:39.760 --> 1:44:42.840 to make decisions out of emotional decisions, But I really 1:44:43.360 --> 1:44:45.599 did it out of love for her, because I wanted 1:44:45.640 --> 1:44:47.839 to see her, you know, I wanted her to be happy, 1:44:48.479 --> 1:44:51.599 and so I finally committed to it and I said, look, 1:44:51.640 --> 1:44:54.160 I want to do it, but the vision is I 1:44:54.160 --> 1:44:57.280 don't think I can make you a star in Broadway 1:44:57.320 --> 1:44:59.280 and motion pictures are TV because there's not a lot 1:44:59.320 --> 1:45:02.000 of parts for black for me. And what we have 1:45:02.080 --> 1:45:04.280 to do is come up with an identity that people 1:45:04.360 --> 1:45:06.960 that you can own. And I think the best way 1:45:06.960 --> 1:45:09.000 to do that is in the music industry because we 1:45:09.040 --> 1:45:11.840 can brand you. I can't brand you waiting for the 1:45:11.920 --> 1:45:15.000 right role to come up, you know, and people know 1:45:15.040 --> 1:45:18.200 that you can sing you one. So what we have 1:45:18.240 --> 1:45:21.040 to do is create an identity that is not miss 1:45:21.040 --> 1:45:24.080 America because you're not really You don't really represent miss 1:45:24.080 --> 1:45:27.479 America and you don't really represent the pictures. So they 1:45:27.479 --> 1:45:31.200 were diametrically opposed. So if we can find music and 1:45:31.240 --> 1:45:33.840 you give me an opportunity to do that, then then 1:45:33.920 --> 1:45:36.360 I think we can create. And if we fail, then 1:45:36.360 --> 1:45:38.280 we'll try Plan B. But let's try to go to 1:45:38.320 --> 1:45:41.800 the music route and try to brand you and create 1:45:41.840 --> 1:45:44.000 an identity that you can own, and then we can 1:45:44.080 --> 1:45:49.040 build and then hopefully that'll be a caveat a pathway 1:45:49.080 --> 1:45:51.760 for you to do film, television, Broadway and all the 1:45:51.760 --> 1:45:54.800 other stuff. But then what I really didn't realize was that, 1:45:55.320 --> 1:45:58.559 you know, the stigma of what everything that had happened. 1:45:58.600 --> 1:46:02.639 I mean, everyone turned me down, you know, Bob kraz now, 1:46:04.160 --> 1:46:08.080 Gerald Busby, you know, I got turned down by like 1:46:08.120 --> 1:46:11.479 eight labels. Clive Calder, you know, I remember he told me, 1:46:11.479 --> 1:46:13.160 he said, well, I kind of see Vanessa's you know, 1:46:13.200 --> 1:46:15.840 this is kind of like a page three like in 1:46:15.880 --> 1:46:19.240 the Sun in the UK, Like that's how what people 1:46:19.320 --> 1:46:21.439 kind of think of her might be. Like maybe she 1:46:21.439 --> 1:46:23.400 could be a celebrity, but I don't think anybody will 1:46:23.439 --> 1:46:25.800 ever take her serious as an artist. And he told 1:46:25.800 --> 1:46:30.439 me that, you know, this is in his office, me 1:46:30.479 --> 1:46:32.920 and Vanessa. He said this in front of Vanessa too, 1:46:33.600 --> 1:46:36.719 And you know, so I was getting turned down left 1:46:36.760 --> 1:46:39.519 and right, you know, but Clive was actually he sent 1:46:39.560 --> 1:46:42.600 me a really nice note and he said, everything you 1:46:42.680 --> 1:46:44.280 told me you were going to do in that meeting, 1:46:44.360 --> 1:46:48.680 you did. And I blew it. And I was so 1:46:48.800 --> 1:46:51.759 happy that he owned up to that, you know, because 1:46:51.800 --> 1:46:54.120 I told him I said, no, I don't want a demo, dao, 1:46:54.160 --> 1:46:56.400 I want a real deal. She can will make her 1:46:56.439 --> 1:46:58.760 a legitimate artist. And the guy who really came to 1:46:58.800 --> 1:47:02.599 the table was at X time and Ed was calling 1:47:02.800 --> 1:47:04.600 called me. At that time, he had just gotten a 1:47:04.680 --> 1:47:08.160 deal with Wing Records to be you know, to start 1:47:08.160 --> 1:47:11.200 Wing Records, and he had one group signed at the time, 1:47:11.280 --> 1:47:15.840 Tony Tony Tony, and so he was just telling me 1:47:16.080 --> 1:47:17.800 we were friends, and he said, man, I got this 1:47:17.880 --> 1:47:20.719 new label, so if you got anybody, you know, please 1:47:20.840 --> 1:47:23.120 run and buy me. And he knew that, you know, 1:47:23.439 --> 1:47:26.240 at this point Vanessa and I had a relationship. People 1:47:26.280 --> 1:47:28.840 knew about it and everything, so you know, at the 1:47:28.920 --> 1:47:30.880 end of our conversation, I said, oh, I don't have 1:47:30.880 --> 1:47:33.800 anybody right now. But he said, well, what are you 1:47:33.840 --> 1:47:36.800 doing with Vanessa? And I said, well, I'm trying to 1:47:36.800 --> 1:47:39.240 get a damn record deal, but everyone wants to do 1:47:39.280 --> 1:47:41.080 a demo and I don't want to get you know, 1:47:41.160 --> 1:47:44.000 demo deals are like purgatory. You know, you get a 1:47:44.000 --> 1:47:45.880 demo deal and then all of a sudden they reject you. 1:47:46.000 --> 1:47:47.680 Then nobody wants to touch you. And I said, I 1:47:47.720 --> 1:47:50.360 don't want to go that route. So he just said, well, 1:47:50.400 --> 1:47:52.479 you know, why don't you come here. Let's do it, 1:47:53.240 --> 1:47:56.280 And I said, really, am you serious, And he said, yeah, 1:47:56.280 --> 1:47:57.840 I don't have any money. I don't have any kind 1:47:57.880 --> 1:47:59.519 of real money, but you know, I can give you 1:47:59.560 --> 1:48:03.120 some money. So we barded a little bit. There wasn't 1:48:03.120 --> 1:48:05.240 a lot of room. I negotiate a little bit more, 1:48:05.240 --> 1:48:07.880 and that's where we started. And so it was the 1:48:07.960 --> 1:48:11.479 three of us, and you know, that was the beginning 1:48:11.840 --> 1:48:15.679 of her musical career and then the rest is you know, history. 1:48:15.720 --> 1:48:17.880 And you know, I think I did have a big 1:48:17.960 --> 1:48:21.559 role in that first decade of her career and everything 1:48:21.600 --> 1:48:24.920 that we The one thing I was disappointed about was 1:48:24.960 --> 1:48:27.639 we didn't get a chance to do a major tour, 1:48:28.280 --> 1:48:30.800 and I thought that that was something that I would 1:48:30.800 --> 1:48:35.000 have loved for her to dedicate and stay more entrenchs 1:48:35.040 --> 1:48:38.439 in the music industry, to really launch a major tour 1:48:38.560 --> 1:48:41.240 while I was still at her helm. And then our 1:48:41.280 --> 1:48:44.800 relationship started. You know, by this time, we had three kids, 1:48:45.200 --> 1:48:48.360 and you know, I don't regret any of the time 1:48:48.400 --> 1:48:51.599 that we spent together. We were very successful in our run, 1:48:51.680 --> 1:48:53.639 and she's gone on to do really great things. 1:48:54.640 --> 1:48:58.200 I have to ask, have you guys ever forgiven La 1:48:58.280 --> 1:49:02.920 and Babyface for giving girls away the pebbles instead of Yeah. 1:49:02.800 --> 1:49:05.840 That was a total that was a total money deal. 1:49:06.040 --> 1:49:10.680 Like Ed and Vanessa. Man, they hated them. Yeah, I 1:49:10.720 --> 1:49:13.200 think you read in the book where we ran into 1:49:13.280 --> 1:49:16.880 I ran into La and Babyface the warm Clock. That 1:49:17.040 --> 1:49:20.479 was so fucking funny. Man, I was cracking up. I 1:49:20.520 --> 1:49:22.680 never thought I didn't have the hate for them. I 1:49:22.760 --> 1:49:27.480 just didn't like the the business business ethics that they exercise. 1:49:27.760 --> 1:49:29.720 And all they had to do was call it was 1:49:29.760 --> 1:49:32.840 a money It was a money deal, you know. And 1:49:33.000 --> 1:49:35.000 also we didn't have But what a lot of people 1:49:35.000 --> 1:49:38.360 don't realize is we didn't have a contract with them. 1:49:38.720 --> 1:49:40.840 We were doing a ED one. You know, we were 1:49:41.040 --> 1:49:44.439 doing a spec deal with them because they brought We 1:49:44.479 --> 1:49:47.439 wanted them to write original material and write and produce 1:49:47.520 --> 1:49:50.840 rigial material for Vanessa on her debut album. And they 1:49:50.880 --> 1:49:54.880 came with four songs and we didn't really like most 1:49:54.960 --> 1:49:57.160 of you know, the three of the songs we didn't 1:49:57.160 --> 1:50:01.840 feel right. But girlfriend one that we thought was interesting 1:50:02.880 --> 1:50:05.240 wasn't really the direction we're thinking. But we said, let's 1:50:05.280 --> 1:50:08.840 do this song, you know, switch and let Levan has 1:50:08.960 --> 1:50:11.479 put her lead vocals on it, and we'll do it 1:50:11.520 --> 1:50:13.720 as a spec and if everything goes well, then we'll 1:50:13.760 --> 1:50:15.519 commit three songs for the album. 1:50:15.520 --> 1:50:17.800 So there's a version of Girlfriend with her voice on 1:50:17.840 --> 1:50:18.800 it somewhere in this world. 1:50:18.920 --> 1:50:23.880 That's what Pebbles heard. Pebbles came to the party. 1:50:24.120 --> 1:50:25.880 She does have the stronger voice than the. 1:50:26.160 --> 1:50:31.040 Oakwood Boy the Oakwood Apartments. It was where La and 1:50:31.240 --> 1:50:35.960 Face came to Andy. They were just trying to you know, 1:50:36.000 --> 1:50:38.320 they had just left the group the deal, and they 1:50:38.320 --> 1:50:40.719 were trying to you know, they had the Whisper song 1:50:41.640 --> 1:50:44.920 that was a big hit, yeah, rock Sydetti, and so 1:50:44.960 --> 1:50:48.800 they were just starting off and they were cametinue to 1:50:48.920 --> 1:50:52.639 La to you know, mind some business and make money, 1:50:53.080 --> 1:50:55.080 you know, try to get some deal with some songwriting 1:50:55.120 --> 1:50:58.080 production deals. And so what happened was they were at 1:50:58.120 --> 1:51:04.439 that place and Pebbles was also starting her first record 1:51:04.520 --> 1:51:08.280 with NCA, and she came in and heard I think 1:51:08.360 --> 1:51:13.000 Vanessa was actually at the place when Pebbles came in 1:51:13.360 --> 1:51:17.000 and she heard her voice a slave of her voice 1:51:17.040 --> 1:51:21.480 on that track on Girlfriend. And then when Vanessa left, 1:51:21.880 --> 1:51:26.040 she said to La, I want that song. And then 1:51:26.479 --> 1:51:33.280 Husby got involved and her husband had money, right, and yeah, 1:51:33.320 --> 1:51:35.439 so they it was a money It was a money 1:51:35.439 --> 1:51:38.679 switch because we didn't have a deal we were in 1:51:38.720 --> 1:51:41.599 spec and so when they got the money, they just 1:51:41.640 --> 1:51:44.559 didn't have the guys to tell us that they were 1:51:44.600 --> 1:51:47.479 going to go. And also, in all fairness to them, 1:51:47.640 --> 1:51:51.719 Vanessa was pregnant. We were going to have to delay 1:51:51.760 --> 1:51:54.439 the record, so they were not going to make the money. 1:51:54.880 --> 1:51:59.439 And Kenny also thought that it was a more of 1:51:59.479 --> 1:52:03.000 an herb been tracked that it wasn't that Devil's had 1:52:03.040 --> 1:52:08.240 a better voice. She had a more urban voice than Vanessa. 1:52:08.600 --> 1:52:12.200 Yeah, baby said that she was girlfriend. Yeah, yeah, girlfriend. 1:52:12.560 --> 1:52:14.160 I could hear a girlfriend. I could hear it. 1:52:14.280 --> 1:52:18.280 Yeah, that was Kenny. That was Kenny who said he 1:52:18.439 --> 1:52:20.320 said that, but he let La kind of take the 1:52:20.320 --> 1:52:23.640 blame for it. But uh no, you know, so you know, 1:52:23.720 --> 1:52:26.000 I told him when I saw them at the Forum Club. Look, 1:52:26.000 --> 1:52:27.360 I don't hate you guys, but you guys should have 1:52:27.400 --> 1:52:29.879 called man, that's the only thing. Just had a courtesy 1:52:30.240 --> 1:52:32.040 Just call and say hey, you know, I understood that 1:52:32.080 --> 1:52:35.200 you guys did it for money and her point in 1:52:35.240 --> 1:52:37.360 your career, that made sense, you know, but you should 1:52:37.360 --> 1:52:38.639 All you had to do was call us. 1:52:38.840 --> 1:52:42.080 So Okay, I'm I'm gonna close here because I can 1:52:42.160 --> 1:52:47.080 nerd out for twelve hours. I do want to know though, 1:52:47.280 --> 1:52:52.200 at least for when your daughter, and of course your 1:52:52.280 --> 1:52:56.679 daughter's uh, Jillian, she's lying, babe, Well, she's expressing interest 1:52:56.760 --> 1:53:01.639 in getting in the biz and knowing what you know, 1:53:01.640 --> 1:53:04.800 knowing who you dealt with, all these casting characters that 1:53:04.840 --> 1:53:08.120 you meet, and there's a lot of heartbreak here, you know, 1:53:08.400 --> 1:53:14.200 in the clients that you're working with, Like what advice 1:53:14.240 --> 1:53:18.280 are you? Are you being encouraging, like ah, I wish 1:53:18.320 --> 1:53:20.679 you would try something else, or da da da da da, 1:53:20.800 --> 1:53:25.960 or like or were you the encouraging dad? That's like, 1:53:26.040 --> 1:53:28.320 go ahead, follow your dream, this is what you want 1:53:28.320 --> 1:53:28.519 to do. 1:53:29.640 --> 1:53:34.400 Yeah, I know. I never gave her any discouraging news 1:53:34.920 --> 1:53:39.559 or suggestions about I didn't throw my history on her 1:53:40.120 --> 1:53:43.519 in that respect, Okay, and give her, you know, the 1:53:43.960 --> 1:53:46.160 dark side of our business with the gas. You know, 1:53:46.560 --> 1:53:49.240 there's a lot of darkness in our business. But I 1:53:49.280 --> 1:53:53.519 did try to. She was like hands off. First of all, 1:53:53.760 --> 1:53:55.760 she goes, Dad, it's not ready for your ears yet. 1:53:56.520 --> 1:54:00.280 She was guarded with the Yeah, she was very guard 1:54:00.479 --> 1:54:02.920 And she told me she was working on one song 1:54:03.560 --> 1:54:05.639 and she would play it for me when it was ready. 1:54:06.280 --> 1:54:08.479 And I said, well, you know, you know I listened 1:54:08.520 --> 1:54:11.040 to all kinds of songs. I listened to Medley's you know, 1:54:11.200 --> 1:54:13.880 just piano or guitar, you know, just let me hear it, 1:54:13.920 --> 1:54:15.800 you know, I'd just like to hear what your direction is. 1:54:15.840 --> 1:54:18.080 And she goes, no, Dad, I'm not ready to play 1:54:18.160 --> 1:54:22.519 for you yet. I said, okay. So she did end 1:54:22.600 --> 1:54:26.160 up coming to me with treat me like Fire, And 1:54:26.560 --> 1:54:28.720 finally when there was a rough demo of it that 1:54:28.760 --> 1:54:31.439 she was happy with at least to let me listen to. 1:54:31.840 --> 1:54:35.600 I made some suggestions on it, but she and Lucas 1:54:35.640 --> 1:54:39.200 pretty much formulated all their own image and and everything. 1:54:39.240 --> 1:54:42.000 I didn't have any input or anything. I just kind 1:54:42.000 --> 1:54:44.160 of let them do what they wanted to do. And 1:54:44.400 --> 1:54:46.280 I remember seeing the video when she had all that hair. 1:54:46.320 --> 1:54:48.880 I'd never seen so much hair. She always had wild hair, 1:54:48.920 --> 1:54:51.080 but this was like, you know, this was like hair 1:54:51.120 --> 1:54:52.000 on steroids. 1:54:52.240 --> 1:54:54.480 Right, Yes, that's how first matter. I was like, wait, 1:54:54.520 --> 1:54:57.040 who's this person? She like, okay, how did you get 1:54:57.080 --> 1:54:57.760 all that hair? 1:54:58.080 --> 1:55:03.240 That's so But you know what ended up happening was 1:55:04.520 --> 1:55:07.920 because I was her father, everyone thought I managed her. 1:55:08.440 --> 1:55:10.560 And so when that single, when they put the single 1:55:10.600 --> 1:55:12.880 out on SoundCloud, I mean it was just like an 1:55:12.880 --> 1:55:16.440 immediate response, like a pess or a response, and everybody 1:55:16.440 --> 1:55:18.280 fell in love with the track. And so I was 1:55:18.280 --> 1:55:22.760 getting all these calls from labels and lawyers and managers 1:55:22.840 --> 1:55:24.920 and say, hey, mom, man, are you managing your daughter? 1:55:25.600 --> 1:55:27.680 What's going on? What's going on? You know? I said, no, no, 1:55:27.680 --> 1:55:30.160 I'm not. I'm just your dad. You know I can, 1:55:30.440 --> 1:55:32.320 I can pass on the information to. 1:55:33.960 --> 1:55:34.880 I'm just her dad. 1:55:35.760 --> 1:55:39.120 What ended up happening? I said, I will help you. 1:55:39.400 --> 1:55:42.800 I don't want to manage you, you know, forever, but 1:55:42.920 --> 1:55:46.200 you guys need help and I'd like to offer my 1:55:46.360 --> 1:55:51.160 services to get, you know, set you a sale. Because 1:55:51.160 --> 1:55:54.040 I never wanted to wake up and you know, because 1:55:54.040 --> 1:55:56.760 I had managed their mother, I said this whole idea 1:55:56.960 --> 1:55:59.800 of managing my daughter and waking up one day and saying, 1:56:00.520 --> 1:56:02.640 I love you, but you're fired. I'm not going to 1:56:02.680 --> 1:56:06.360 be around for that. So I just said, I'm going 1:56:06.400 --> 1:56:08.160 to help you, and so I did. I helped them. 1:56:08.240 --> 1:56:11.120 I helped them get a manager. I flew to London 1:56:12.200 --> 1:56:17.680 and they ended up signing to Outsiders, a small label 1:56:17.720 --> 1:56:24.200 that was distributed by Polydor UK and Amanda Ghost. You know, 1:56:25.160 --> 1:56:27.120 did you ever run her? Meet Amanda Ghost. 1:56:27.640 --> 1:56:29.240 I've not met Amanda Ghost now. 1:56:29.320 --> 1:56:32.840 Okay, So she was a successful songwriter. She was on 1:56:33.080 --> 1:56:37.080 she was a president of elect of Epic Records for 1:56:37.080 --> 1:56:37.919 about six. 1:56:37.720 --> 1:56:39.120 Months or so. 1:56:39.160 --> 1:56:42.920 She was on American Idol as a judge for a minute, 1:56:43.640 --> 1:56:46.840 you know. So she added some uh, you know, some 1:56:46.920 --> 1:56:49.400 traction in the music industry, and she fell in love 1:56:49.440 --> 1:56:52.200 with the group. And so I helped the negotiate that deal. 1:56:52.320 --> 1:56:55.360 I set them up with an attorney, and then I 1:56:55.800 --> 1:56:57.880 went over to London to help them since she was 1:56:57.920 --> 1:56:59.560 gonna be signed to they were gonna be signed to 1:56:59.560 --> 1:57:02.240 a London based label. I said, you guys should get 1:57:02.360 --> 1:57:06.040 a London based manager as well, who has you know, 1:57:06.200 --> 1:57:09.400 tentacles in the US market, because you've got to still 1:57:09.640 --> 1:57:12.280 release the record here in the US. And I wanted 1:57:12.320 --> 1:57:14.760 them to know that I was going to be out 1:57:14.760 --> 1:57:17.880 of the picture. I didn't want to manager thinking that 1:57:17.960 --> 1:57:20.440 I was going to be second guessing everything that they did. 1:57:20.880 --> 1:57:22.840 And so I met with everyone and I said, look, 1:57:22.880 --> 1:57:25.400 you know my role once. If they decide to go 1:57:25.480 --> 1:57:28.640 with you, I'm out. I'm just regular dad. You don't 1:57:28.640 --> 1:57:30.280 have to answer to me, you don't have to copy 1:57:30.440 --> 1:57:33.560 in anything. Your relationship will be with Lucas and Jillian, 1:57:33.600 --> 1:57:33.880 not me. 1:57:34.560 --> 1:57:34.880 Wow. 1:57:34.960 --> 1:57:38.440 And I just felt that that was my responsibility to 1:57:38.520 --> 1:57:41.920 give them clear sailing, you know, and to let them 1:57:42.040 --> 1:57:44.040 manifest their career however they saw it. 1:57:44.120 --> 1:57:45.240 And so that's parenting. 1:57:45.680 --> 1:57:48.960 That's the role that parenting. I want to thank you 1:57:48.960 --> 1:57:51.920 for doing this for us again. 1:57:52.600 --> 1:57:54.880 Oh, thank Deana too. I want to thank Diana, Thank 1:57:54.920 --> 1:57:56.200 you Deanna, because yes. 1:57:56.240 --> 1:58:01.200 Diana, she's aid, you know, she's sure god mother right, Yes. 1:58:01.040 --> 1:58:04.480 Sir, just to let our views not yes, I feel 1:58:04.480 --> 1:58:08.400 like it's imperative reading the Fame Game and Insider's playbook 1:58:08.440 --> 1:58:12.320 on earning your fifteen minutes. Harper Collins shout out to 1:58:12.360 --> 1:58:15.000 Harper Collins. But yes, I think it's required reading. 1:58:15.120 --> 1:58:17.240 Yes, I have notes. I have written notes inside. That's 1:58:17.240 --> 1:58:17.920 how good it is. 1:58:18.000 --> 1:58:22.360 Yeah, it's a good journey into and it makes me 1:58:22.400 --> 1:58:25.240 think twice about working with any artist ever again. 1:58:25.360 --> 1:58:31.120 So on behalf of sir Bill. I'm calling you now, 1:58:31.160 --> 1:58:34.800 Sir Bill. I'll take it. Royal Royal Bill. 1:58:34.680 --> 1:58:41.160 And mister Bay City Rollers down there, Sugar Steve Saturday, Hey, 1:58:41.480 --> 1:58:42.280 go man to. 1:58:42.240 --> 1:58:43.040 Pay for that man. 1:58:44.480 --> 1:58:46.440 I didn't even I mean they had I went to 1:58:46.640 --> 1:58:49.760 several of their big concerence back in the day when 1:58:49.760 --> 1:58:53.160 they performed. One was at a racetrack. I mean they 1:58:53.160 --> 1:58:56.840 were getting you know, run over by women were chasing him. 1:58:57.280 --> 1:59:00.600 But I've never seen anything like that. That's really easy, man. 1:59:02.160 --> 1:59:03.280 It's even a lot for me. 1:59:03.800 --> 1:59:06.480 Anyway, when we have a Bill and Steve and font 1:59:06.520 --> 1:59:09.520 Tigelo and light yea, we thank you very much. 1:59:09.920 --> 1:59:12.000 Thank you all, Thank you all. I really had fun. 1:59:12.040 --> 1:59:14.680 This was really great and I really appreciate your support. 1:59:15.320 --> 1:59:17.840 And yeah, thank you so so much. 1:59:18.000 --> 1:59:28.280 Thank you very much much. Love Supreme is a production 1:59:28.480 --> 1:59:29.720 of iHeart You Radio. 1:59:34.000 --> 1:59:37.280 For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 1:59:37.520 --> 1:59:40.560 Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.