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Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: All Right, ladies and gentlemen, this is a Quest Love,

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Speaker 2: Quest Love Supreme back on zoom.

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Speaker 1: Is that a dream that we were actually out in

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Speaker 1: the open and uh.

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Speaker 2: We saw the world and we saw each other and

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Speaker 2: we were doing these shows.

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Speaker 1: In person and everything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, man, it was so amazing, like you were there

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Speaker 2: and you were there and you were there.

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Speaker 1: It was amazing. I dreamed that Bill was there, you know. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was amazing. No, it was.

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Speaker 2: It's good to be back. We're here with the fam.

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Speaker 2: It's uh, Bill, Steve and my ea. Uh Fonte went

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Speaker 2: out to get some cigarettes, but.

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Speaker 3: It's coming back faster this time.

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Speaker 1: He gives us regards. Let me go a little bit

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Speaker 1: off the rails.

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Speaker 2: This might be quasi lengthy, but I'll say this my

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Speaker 2: as a preference to this particular episode. I'm gonna start

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Speaker 2: with a quickly personal story, and that story is basically so,

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Speaker 2: there's a gentleman that's been in my organization. His name

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Speaker 2: is Silbert MANI and Silbert like the thing about the

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Speaker 2: Roots organization is, you know, we work with literally the

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Speaker 2: best people and I've had very few terminations. You know,

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Speaker 2: thirty years at the helm of this organization. I mean,

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Speaker 2: some people like move on to do other projects. And

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Speaker 2: for the most part, I'll say that everyone in my

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Speaker 2: organization has done superb work and has been you know,

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Speaker 2: with us anywhere from ten to thirty years. So when

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Speaker 2: I say we get the best of the best, we

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Speaker 2: get the best. Now, in the case of mister Amani Silbert,

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Speaker 2: he came to meet with us about potentially being the

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Speaker 2: new Roots tour manager, and that being a tour manager

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Speaker 2: sort of like being the group's father, like what Dave

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Speaker 2: Seville is to the chipmunks. That's what a tour manager is,

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Speaker 2: to make sure that everything runs smoothly.

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Speaker 1: And that was the role he was filling in.

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Speaker 2: And you know, we are a professional organization, and you know,

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Speaker 2: job interviews are a thing where you know, it's not

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Speaker 2: like I'm in an office with a receptionist and a

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Speaker 2: coffeemaker or any of those things. But I am very

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Speaker 2: serious about the tour manager position. And it's also been

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Speaker 2: a very long time since we've had a male in

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Speaker 2: this particular position.

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Speaker 1: You know, I'll say over.

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Speaker 2: These thirty years that eighty percent of our organization has

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Speaker 2: been run by women. So when sel kind of came

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Speaker 2: in this organization, I wanted to come with the hard

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Speaker 2: questions and I simply asked him one question. I said,

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Speaker 2: what do you think you have that qualifies you to

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Speaker 2: work in the capacity as tour manager for the Roots

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Speaker 2: And he said, I've been Public Enemies tour manager for

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Speaker 2: fifteen years, one hundred plus shows a year, theaters, clubs,

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Speaker 2: stadiums worldwide, opening for the biggest rock acts in the world,

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Speaker 2: like solo dates, all stops in between, he said, and

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Speaker 2: never once has Flavor Flav been late or ever missed

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Speaker 2: a And before you said the last word, I was like,

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Speaker 2: you're hired.

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Speaker 1: That's all I needed to hear.

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Speaker 2: And you know, when you, as the patron, you go

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Speaker 2: to Massive Square Garden to see, you know, a Kendrick

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Speaker 2: show or whatever. You know, we praise artists and all

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Speaker 2: the time, but we never ever get to see how

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Speaker 2: the sausage is made. We never, you know, give praise

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Speaker 2: to the tour bus driver for getting them there, or

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Speaker 2: the manager for negotiating the right contract, or even the

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Speaker 2: tour manager for getting the act there on time.

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Speaker 1: To give you your money's worth.

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Speaker 2: So there's a new book has been written by our

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Speaker 2: guest today called The Fame Game, an insider's playbook for

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Speaker 2: earning your fifteen minutes of And for some reason, I

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Speaker 2: know that the you're in the title is sort of

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Speaker 2: implied to the artist, but I actually think that this

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Speaker 2: book is meant for anyone who's currently an intern or

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Speaker 2: an assistant, future manager's, future publicists. This book is almost

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Speaker 2: it's an important like I was reading it thinking like, oh,

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Speaker 2: maybe I could use this when I get job twenty

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Speaker 2: to be a manager.

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Speaker 1: Because you guys know I like.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So before the rest of Quest of Supreme gets

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Speaker 2: bored to death with this long ass intro, I will

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Speaker 2: just say that our guest today has simply worked with

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Speaker 2: the best, and his job is to be the person

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Speaker 2: who is behind the scenes that makes sure everything is

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Speaker 2: running smoothly. And he's also the person that gets that

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Speaker 2: three am phone call when shit hits the fan. Name

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Speaker 2: them Quincy Jones, Don Cornelius, her Albert Andre Krauts, Luther Vandros,

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Speaker 2: Paul McCartney, Peter Frampton, Nick Nolty, Muhammad Ali, Richard pryor

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Speaker 2: Bet Mintler.

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Speaker 1: Like literally, there is no one, Vanessa one I can

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Speaker 1: name it.

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Speaker 2: I apologize for this long ass intro, but I think

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Speaker 2: it's really important that I set this up. Please welcome

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Speaker 2: to Quest Love Supreme, the one and the Only Supermanager

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Speaker 2: and Doctor fix It, the one and only Ramone Harvey

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Speaker 2: the second on Quest Love Supreme.

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Speaker 4: Thank you, And that was really well crafted and it

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Speaker 4: makes a lot of sense. Well, and I just asked, like,

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Speaker 4: let me ask the final question first, Yes, what's your secret?

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Speaker 1: Ramon?

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Speaker 4: To your to being successful at what you what you chose.

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Speaker 1: To do all these years?

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Speaker 2: You add to that, it's more why why would you

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Speaker 2: want to stress yourself out with this job? You have

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Speaker 2: the most dangerous in entertainment.

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Speaker 1: That's all that.

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Speaker 2: My take after finishing the book was why would you

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Speaker 2: want to do that? What's your answer?

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Speaker 5: You know? I think that over the you know, I

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Speaker 5: kind of fell into it by accident. First of all,

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Speaker 5: I never really wanted to. I didn't grow up to

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Speaker 5: be a manager or a publicist. I just I was.

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Speaker 5: I was a flight attendant for PanAm Airlines and I

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Speaker 5: ended up, you know, flying to London and I lived

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Speaker 5: there for four years and that's where I got my

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Speaker 5: break in the music industry. And it was quite by accident.

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Speaker 5: You know, I was dating a singer and her agency

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Speaker 5: I got laid off from pan AM and I was

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Speaker 5: actually the only black was reporent. You know at that

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Speaker 5: time PanAm, this was in the mid seventies and PanAm

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Speaker 5: didn't have any black people right for the most part,

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Speaker 5: they had very few and they had no mails. All

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Speaker 5: the international airlines like of Tonza of France, British Airways,

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Speaker 5: they all had men, but there was no men in

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Speaker 5: any of the American airlines. So I killed two birds

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Speaker 5: with one stone, being black and being a male, and

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Speaker 5: that's why I got hired. And in fact, I always

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Speaker 5: tell a funny story that we had. I had a

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Speaker 5: huge afro and I used to have to pad it

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Speaker 5: down because we had a three inch maximum from the

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Speaker 5: from the top of your head to the to the

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Speaker 5: outskirts of your wherever your opera reached. So I used

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Speaker 5: to pad it down, put water on, you know.

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Speaker 1: If you want eighties dippity do was like your best.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, right right, well afro sein, whatever the whatever

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Speaker 5: you could do. When I got over there and this

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Speaker 5: this opportunity to work at this talent agency came up,

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Speaker 5: I just found that I had a certain understanding of

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Speaker 5: I interacted well with the artist I worked with Bay

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Speaker 5: City Rollers over there with this agency called Starlight Artist

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Speaker 5: and I work with a group called Marmalade. Bay City

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Speaker 5: Rollers were supposed to be like the next Beatles at

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Speaker 5: the time, but a lot of people don't realize they

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Speaker 5: actually didn't sing on their records. There was two guys

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Speaker 5: named Bill Coulter and Bill uh Bill Martin and Phil

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Speaker 5: Culture who produced and wrote two records for the Bay

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Speaker 5: Rollers and they got him on top of the Pops whatever.

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Speaker 5: But they in those days you could you could lip sync,

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Speaker 5: so they never had to sing and they actually got

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Speaker 5: you know, the first album was huge and they never

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Speaker 5: really performed. Almost everything they did was lip sync.

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Speaker 1: Are you are you disappointed? Steve?

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Speaker 4: I'm literally about to jump out the window right now.

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Speaker 4: I'm a big Bay City Rollers fan.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm sorry to bust your bubble. But no,

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Speaker 5: they didn't. They didn't. It was all done by session singers, Steve. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: they were before Milli Villin did the whole thing. So well.

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Speaker 5: The second record was actually done after they got successful

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Speaker 5: in the first record, they got kind of full of

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Speaker 5: themselves and they said, hey, we don't want to do

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Speaker 5: a we don't want to use these guys, so they

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Speaker 5: fired them and they those guys went and got five

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Speaker 5: new faces, some English guys named Kenny, and that was

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Speaker 5: one of the groups that I worked with over there.

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Speaker 5: And then also I got to work as an editor

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Speaker 5: for a couple of music magazines. So I just had

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Speaker 5: a sense of that music was maybe in my destiny,

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Speaker 5: you know, of relating to artists.

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Speaker 3: And but win Ramon because you were a flight attendant first,

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Speaker 3: but before attend and then I.

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Speaker 5: Got laid off.

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Speaker 1: What year was it that you did your time in London.

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Speaker 5: From nineteen seventy three to nineteen seventy seven.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, okay, so.

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Speaker 5: You know the music scene was really vibrant then Bowie

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Speaker 5: and uh you know Alvin Stardust and Gary Glitter and

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Speaker 5: I mean, you know the Rolling Stones. I remember seeing

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Speaker 5: the first time I saw Billy Preston. He opened for

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Speaker 5: the Rolling Stones at Wimbley. That was in the seventies

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Speaker 5: and he was just incredible. I thought he blew him

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Speaker 5: off the stage, to be honest. But there was just

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Speaker 5: it was just a hotbed of music. I mean I

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Speaker 5: got to see some of the best, you know. I

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Speaker 5: saw Elton John at the peak of his career back

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Speaker 5: then at the was the Rain it's one of the

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Speaker 5: most famous concert halls in London. I forget the name.

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Speaker 5: It begins with a R.

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Speaker 1: Royal Albert Hall, Royal Albert Hall.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Royal Oberoll. And he was just he was amazing.

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Speaker 1: Well, first, I'm fascinated.

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Speaker 2: I know that because of your pan Am experience, Like

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Speaker 2: you go back and forth to London a lot.

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Speaker 1: But it's just so.

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Speaker 5: No, I was based there.

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Speaker 3: I lived there for that whole time, right, But you

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Speaker 3: didn't get to pick it. He didn't even get to

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Speaker 3: picket it. You didn't even know you were going to

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Speaker 3: be there. Because people don't know that part about me

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Speaker 3: to fight. It's in there, right, They just said go.

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Speaker 5: Well, we had three bases to choose from. It was Washington,

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Speaker 5: d C, Boston or London, and I was one. I

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Speaker 5: was the only guy and four women who got picked

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Speaker 5: to go to London.

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Speaker 1: Where were you born? First of all, I.

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Speaker 5: Was born in Chicago, Illinois, and I was My dad

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Speaker 5: was in the service, so we moved around a lot.

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Speaker 5: I went to elementary school in Springfield, mass and then

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Speaker 5: he got transferred to VanderBurg Air Force Base. I went

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Speaker 5: to junior high school up in Lompo, California, which is

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Speaker 5: about sixty miles inland from Santa Barbara, and I went

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Speaker 5: to junior high school and high school there. Then I

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Speaker 5: went to Vidio College and you know, just a little

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Speaker 5: bit east of northeast of LA and got my undergraduate there.

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Speaker 5: Really went to school to be a lawyer. And then

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Speaker 5: a friend of mine, actually Sheryl Boone Isaacs, who used

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Speaker 5: to be president president of the Academy Motion Picture of

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Speaker 5: Arts and Sciences. Yeah, she was the first black woman

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Speaker 5: to do that. We we actually I met her in

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Speaker 5: college and she was from Springfield as well, and she

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Speaker 5: got a job with pan AM and that's how I

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Speaker 5: ended up. She said, hey, you know you should you

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Speaker 5: should apply for pan and they're looking for black men.

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Speaker 5: And I said really, and I said, and she had

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Speaker 5: already been doing it for a year. So I said,

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Speaker 5: all right, I'll applay. What the heck, you know, I

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Speaker 5: wanted to travel anyway, sure if I wanted to continue

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Speaker 5: my education. And so it was really from her that

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Speaker 5: I got the tip that they were even hiring. And

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Speaker 5: then I finally got you know, I got hired. And

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Speaker 5: that's that's It took six months process reinterviews or some

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Speaker 5: screening process and and they want to know. At that time,

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Speaker 5: my offer was even bigger. They said, you know, would

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Speaker 5: you be willing to cut your appro and I said, well, no,

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Speaker 5: not for you just to see it, but if you

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Speaker 5: hire me. Yeah. But yeah, So that's how that's how

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Speaker 5: I ended up going over there.

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Speaker 2: To make a move that bold, especially that early. I mean, okay,

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Speaker 2: it's five years after what I consider the the civil

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Speaker 2: rights period of the sixties, which you know, most people

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Speaker 2: look at nineteen sixty eight is sort of like a

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Speaker 2: seminal year where a lot of revolutionary changes happened. But

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Speaker 2: what I mean the difference between what you did and

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Speaker 2: the difference between a lot of the artists that you represent.

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Speaker 2: Like as an artist, the first thing that entered my

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Speaker 2: head was like, oh, fear, like I'm going to be

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Speaker 2: safe and da da da da, this is too risky.

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Speaker 1: Why would I do that?

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Speaker 2: Like that's it's very unusual, like for at least I

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Speaker 2: don't know many black men are thinking international, or that

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Speaker 2: they could have a space in someplace that's not the

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Speaker 2: United States, you know, But what was it generally about

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Speaker 2: you that thought bigger, more international, thought that you could

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Speaker 2: handle this Because for me, like this is something that

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Speaker 2: only white people would do and not.

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Speaker 5: I always had a feeling of wanting to be adventurous

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Speaker 5: and try try new things, try something you know, different

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Speaker 5: that hadn't been done before. You know, nobody in my

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Speaker 5: family had really traveled. I'd only been on an airplane,

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Speaker 5: like from from LA to San Francisco. I'd never even

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Speaker 5: traveled from one coast to the other, you know, because

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Speaker 5: when we came cross country over in a car and

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Speaker 5: one of those little tent things that you you prop up,

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Speaker 5: it looks like a trailer. It's like on the top

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Speaker 5: of a car. Yeah. Yeah, it's like a tent that

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Speaker 5: you build up. And that's how you know, that's how

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Speaker 5: we ended up coming Springfield to east to west.

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Speaker 3: So that was your first time flying, you doing the

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Speaker 3: pan Am.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it was my first time flying. When I

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Speaker 5: went and training and I was nervous. I wasn't nervous

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Speaker 5: about from inside in terms of like I felt I

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Speaker 5: could I could figure out whatever, you know. I just

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Speaker 5: thought I'd always wanted to travel, see the world and

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Speaker 5: just get out of the context of just being a

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Speaker 5: black man in the US. That I felt like in

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Speaker 5: those times, everyone that that's all they ever talked to

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Speaker 5: you about was you know, it was a black, white thing,

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Speaker 5: and I wanted to see what the if I would

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Speaker 5: be perceived differently in another part of the world, or

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Speaker 5: you know what, I would maybe would anyone even look

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Speaker 5: at me as being an American?

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Speaker 2: Could you just talk about just generally, well, now that

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Speaker 2: you are a professional and you are renown like a

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Speaker 2: world traveler, whatnot? What are the basic differences that you

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Speaker 2: could say were in London at the time when you

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Speaker 2: first lived there, as opposed to now where it's kind

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Speaker 2: of like, you know, the Internet has sort of colonized

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Speaker 2: the world, where there's Starbucks everywhere, a seven to eleven everywhere,

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Speaker 2: a KFC Donald's every you know, you get the same

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Speaker 2: J cole record around the world at the same time.

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Speaker 2: But for you, in general, what were the most What's

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Speaker 2: what's the difference in how your life was first living

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Speaker 2: there as opposed to how it is now.

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Speaker 5: I think the biggest difference was, well, two things that

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Speaker 5: I noticed right off the bat. One is that, for

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Speaker 5: the very first time in my whole life that I

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Speaker 5: could recall, I was in a pub and somebody asked

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Speaker 5: me what it was like to be in American and

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Speaker 5: I went, geez, no one's ever asked me that question.

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Speaker 5: They only ever asked me what it's like to be black.

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Speaker 5: I need to really think about that for a second,

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Speaker 5: because I don't I've never really thought of myself as

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Speaker 5: an American, to be honest, you know, that was like

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Speaker 5: a big question, and that that was you know, that

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Speaker 5: was part of the process of wanting to go there

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Speaker 5: in the first place, is to see how I would

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Speaker 5: be viewed. And so there was that part. But then

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Speaker 5: on the black side, they they were a little bit

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Speaker 5: behind our civil rights movement at the time, so they

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Speaker 5: they didn't really see themselves. They just saw themselves as

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Speaker 5: being English. And I remember asking a guy what's it

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Speaker 5: like to be what's it like to be black? And

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Speaker 5: this in the you know, in England, because the voices

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Speaker 5: are different, the inflection they speak English like English people,

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Speaker 5: you know, it's a little bit different than us, you know,

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Speaker 5: and you have colloquialism and throughout different parts of you know,

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Speaker 5: depending if you're on the East coast, west coast, you know,

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Speaker 5: but we're basically speaking a little bit different vibe than

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Speaker 5: the way the English spoke. And so but they kind

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Speaker 5: of resented the idea that I was looking at them

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Speaker 5: as being anything other than English, and I thought, weird.

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Speaker 5: I just wow, So you just you just consider yourself

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Speaker 5: to be English equal. I mean, it doesn't really work

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Speaker 5: that way in the States, but but you know, more

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Speaker 5: power to you if that's the way it works, you know.

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Speaker 5: And this was very early on in the Inbratic days

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Speaker 5: of me being there and just getting adjusted to, you know,

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Speaker 5: being in a place where it's the majority. You know.

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Speaker 5: The one thing about England that's that makes it easier

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Speaker 5: and more accessible for black people or American people is

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Speaker 5: it is English. You are speaking English. It is their language,

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Speaker 5: although it is totally different. Like when I was an editor,

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Speaker 5: I had to learn to spell every everything different because

335
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Speaker 5: they don't pronounce everything the same as we do. You know,

336
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Speaker 5: Like there's a I remember that one of the silliest

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Speaker 5: things I was going to in a movie theater. They

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Speaker 5: call it the cinema over there. And one of the

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Speaker 5: most famous squares in England is Less Square. That's that's

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Speaker 5: where they have all the big theaters. But it's spelled

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Speaker 5: l E I C E S t R. So I

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Speaker 5: get into cab and the guy goes, well, where are

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Speaker 5: you going? I said, I'm going to Leicester Square? I

344
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Speaker 5: never heard of Leicester Square. That's what do you mean?

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Speaker 5: You never heard of license Is Square? I mean, like,

346
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Speaker 5: how long you've been driving a cat? So I've been

347
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Speaker 5: driving a cab for like thirty years. And I said, well,

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Speaker 5: it's the you know, it's the square, you know, Licenses

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Speaker 5: Square where all the theaters are. Really, you know, it's

350
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Speaker 5: all where all your big cinemas are, and you know theaters.

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Speaker 5: He goes, oh, oh, you mean Leicester Square. And I said,

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Speaker 5: Leicester Square, that's how you say it. And I said, well,

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Speaker 5: in the stage we would spell that, you know, l

354
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Speaker 5: E S T E R, So why ain't I spell

355
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Speaker 5: it that way? You know, I just had to learn

356
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Speaker 5: all kinds of different spellings and stuff like that. You know,

357
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Speaker 5: it was also still easier than like, say, you know,

358
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Speaker 5: my second language was French, but it was still easier

359
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Speaker 5: to do that than to go to Paris and try

360
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Speaker 5: to speak French, because they really had a snooty attitude

361
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Speaker 5: about Americans trying to speak French exactly. We immediately thought,

362
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Speaker 5: you were, you know, persecuting their language.

363
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Speaker 3: You know, the only language I ever learned to alon.

364
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Speaker 3: I understand you speak her like on her.

365
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Speaker 1: Like, you know, and that's another comment from Bill.

366
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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm an American. I learned a lesson. I

367
00:20:10,080 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 3: learned the language in school.

368
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Speaker 5: What do y'all say?

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Speaker 1: Time out? Time? Yeah? Steve, yes?

370
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Speaker 2: I do you have twenty copies of the Basity Rollers

371
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Speaker 2: first album?

372
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Speaker 1: Behind You? Oh? That was such a love joke. That's

373
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Speaker 1: been up there for like ten to fifteen minutes. No

374
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Speaker 1: one said ship. Finally, that was a love joke.

375
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Speaker 3: It's been sitting at a hole. I didn't even see

376
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Speaker 3: he did him do that?

377
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Speaker 1: Like dog? Why do you have twenty copies of this record?

378
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, it's Mark thirty and I've probably

379
00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:45,640
Speaker 4: owned about one hundred copies of this and I give

380
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:47,800
Speaker 4: them away. It's I buy it every time I see it.

381
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Speaker 4: So is this the the album you're referring to? It's

382
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Speaker 4: like I believe it's like the first America.

383
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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the that's the first one. In fact, they

384
00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 5: really because of that problem with the producers. You know,

385
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Speaker 5: the one show that everyone broke on and during those

386
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Speaker 5: days was Top of the Pops, which was one of

387
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Speaker 5: the most influencial music shows ever. Yeah, in any you know,

388
00:21:09,680 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 5: in any country that I know of, I mean, you

389
00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,520
Speaker 5: could really break and keep sustaining a career just being

390
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 5: on Top of the Pops. But they changed the ruling

391
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 5: and you had to start singing live track on the

392
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Speaker 5: show because of that, because they weren't the only ones

393
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,080
Speaker 5: that were doing that, and so the unions and everything

394
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 5: started complaining. They switched the procedures so that you couldn't

395
00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 5: lip sync on Top of the Pops. But for the

396
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Speaker 5: first ten years I think that the show existed, you could.

397
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:38,880
Speaker 5: It was always lip syncing.

398
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,440
Speaker 4: Right, well, I understand that they were lip syncing, but

399
00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 4: but you're are you suggesting or did you suggest that

400
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 4: they had session singers in the making of the albums.

401
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 5: Them making their first album was completely written recorded by

402
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Speaker 5: session singers.

403
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Speaker 4: You've been had, Steve, Yeah, all right, well you were

404
00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 4: in our life, Thank you, talk to you.

405
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:07,199
Speaker 5: And again they had they had two records recorded and

406
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,359
Speaker 5: they just put that. They put other guys together and

407
00:22:10,400 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 5: they used the exact same you know, they made a

408
00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,040
Speaker 5: few tweaks in the record in the second record that

409
00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,200
Speaker 5: would have been the Bay City Roller second record. So

410
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 5: very sorry.

411
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Speaker 2: Ramona's right, that rule is actually what say the roots

412
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Speaker 2: life only because the French version of that show, we

413
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Speaker 2: had a situation and I explained it before where de

414
00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:36,760
Speaker 2: Bratt was a guest on the show and uh, she

415
00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 2: wanted to lip sing her song and they're like, no,

416
00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,040
Speaker 2: you have to do it live to track, and she

417
00:22:42,119 --> 00:22:45,360
Speaker 2: called an attitude, walked off the show and we got

418
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,239
Speaker 2: the call that you know, could you fill in her

419
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,280
Speaker 2: eighteen minutes? And this is you know, long story short.

420
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Speaker 2: The next day, like the Roots could suddenly go from

421
00:22:55,720 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 2: playing Alicia MoMA over in Paris to play like the Zenith,

422
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 2: like their version of Madison Square Garden. So you're right,

423
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 2: like some of those shows are like that where you

424
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 2: have to sing it. Even if it's too can track,

425
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:13,159
Speaker 2: you still have to sing live to it.

426
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Speaker 4: And so well, whoever whoever sang on this record, it's

427
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 4: it's incredible.

428
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:21,640
Speaker 1: We get them.

429
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Speaker 4: Yeah, but but okay.

430
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Speaker 5: I'm pretty old. Now.

431
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 4: Well let's less mccau less McKowen I think was his name,

432
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 4: lead singer.

433
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 1: He passed way recently?

434
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 5: Oh did he?

435
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:44,159
Speaker 1: Yeah? I did not know that. Wow. I would like

436
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: to know.

437
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 2: What do you consider the first step, the first step

438
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 2: into your career path, Like how do you start inching

439
00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 2: towards the entertainment business.

440
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 5: I think the first step was that working for that

441
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 5: talent agency in London, Starlight Artists, and uh so then

442
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 5: I had I had been there for almost four years.

443
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 5: I had to make a decision whether to stay there

444
00:24:17,160 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 5: and become British more or less or come back to

445
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 5: the States, and I really didn't want to be Uh

446
00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 5: there was a chance I could get hired back at

447
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 5: pan Am, but I felt like my time up there

448
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 5: with PanAm had kind of, uh was over. I mean,

449
00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 5: you know, I used to tell people I'm a I'm

450
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 5: a waiter in the sky because you know, I had

451
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 5: a college degree. R all I was doing was I

452
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 5: was really just a waiter to just do it on

453
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:45,719
Speaker 5: a plane instead I had in a restaurant, And I

454
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:47,520
Speaker 5: just felt like I didn't go to college just to

455
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,680
Speaker 5: do that job. Even though it was a lot of fun.

456
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,239
Speaker 5: I got to see the world, and uh it was

457
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 5: it was great. So when I came back to the

458
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 5: States and I decided I wanted to continue to work,

459
00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 5: you know, in the entertain business. But I had been

460
00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 5: an editor of those two magazines. They were both pop

461
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,359
Speaker 5: zine magazines. One was called Poster and one was called Superstar,

462
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 5: And I was the only I wrote the whole damn magazine.

463
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 5: But I told the guys, I said, you know, if

464
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 5: you really want to make we have to make it

465
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 5: look like we're a bigger operation, right, And I don't

466
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,200
Speaker 5: you know, I don't want to have the only name.

467
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 5: And uh, you know, so what if you don't have

468
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,680
Speaker 5: a problem, I like to make up some names of

469
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 5: other writers. I'll still write it and I'll try to

470
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 5: write a little bit different, sort of feel like we

471
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:31,880
Speaker 5: have a staff.

472
00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:34,920
Speaker 2: So you were basically what Cynthia Horner was to write

473
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:36,400
Speaker 2: on magazine, Yes.

474
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,400
Speaker 5: Exactly, only she was really the only and she didn't care.

475
00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 5: I cared. I didn't want to be the only person.

476
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 5: But yeah, Cynthia Horner. Wow, that's a flashback.

477
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my dream interview.

478
00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 2: And you know, she's very shy about coming on on

479
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,600
Speaker 2: this podcast, and I think she just thinks, like, no

480
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:55,480
Speaker 2: one knows who I am and that's not big of

481
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:55,880
Speaker 2: a deal.

482
00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:59,000
Speaker 1: But this is this is literally the platform.

483
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, no, she You know, when you start off

484
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 5: in the entertainment business in black press or whatever, everyone

485
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:05,960
Speaker 5: who sent your Horner.

486
00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 1: Was right, you got to go through her first.

487
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 5: Yeah. She was one of the you know, right on

488
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 5: was one of the top magazines for you to get

489
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:13,959
Speaker 5: exposure in if you're a black artist.

490
00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, So coming back to the States, how much of

491
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 2: a culture shock was it for you, because I mean

492
00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: you're living in London and a key period of development

493
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 2: the United States, you know, like the Nixon period.

494
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 5: You know, went to college, you know Nixon's college. I

495
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 5: went to Nixon's college. That was far college. That's where

496
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 5: he was. Yeah, he went to Wilier College and all.

497
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 5: They also said that he was from Whittier, but he

498
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 5: wasn't from whitty He was from Laura Belinda. He was

499
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,120
Speaker 5: born there and he went through he went through the

500
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:54,400
Speaker 5: Widio school system, but he didn't actually, he wasn't a resident.

501
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 5: So when all the ship hit the fan, they pretty

502
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 5: much they had a sign saying welcome to right down

503
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 5: their main street was Greenleaf Avenue, Welcome to President Nixon's hometown.

504
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,640
Speaker 5: And then when when Watergate happened, they made a tour

505
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:13,400
Speaker 5: the science they said, well they went on the whole

506
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 5: campaign really to disown him, and they said, no, he's

507
00:27:16,320 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 5: not really from here. You know, he's from Ladover, Linda.

508
00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 5: But he was really adopted by videos. That was a funny.

509
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: So it was it was how much of a.

510
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 5: It was a big culture shock because, for one, you know,

511
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 5: the music was really different I had. I wasn't really

512
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 5: in tune with all the music that was going on

513
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 5: in the States. Then, you know, four years is a big,

514
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 5: you know, vacuum of time to lose connection with your roots.

515
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 5: And one of the first groups that I fell in

516
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 5: love with when I came back was Brothers Johnson and

517
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,880
Speaker 5: the song get the Funk Out the Face Right. And

518
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 5: but when I listened to it on the radio the

519
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 5: first time I heard it, and I had a British

520
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,240
Speaker 5: accent that I didn't even try to. I didn't realize

521
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 5: it until I got back. And you know, some of

522
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 5: my friend, well, what's up with you, bro? What this

523
00:28:06,640 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 5: voice you got? And you know I was calling things

524
00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:11,399
Speaker 5: petro instead of gas. There's just little things that you

525
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 5: learn just from you know, being in one place for

526
00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 5: four years, you know, and I had to re turn

527
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,400
Speaker 5: that stuff off and readjust it. And also I drove

528
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 5: on the wrong side of the street and you know,

529
00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 5: one time in LA because I was used to driving,

530
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 5: and I was in the car with my sister and

531
00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 5: she she says, hey, you know, I don't want to

532
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,480
Speaker 5: scare you, but you drive on the wrong side. It

533
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,280
Speaker 5: is too course, yes, you know, had to turn you know,

534
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 5: so little things like that. But I thought that the

535
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 5: song said get the fuck out my face, right, And

536
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:43,880
Speaker 5: I called her friend. I said, wow, man, music has

537
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 5: really changed here. Like a lady. You're like, no, you

538
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 5: can say fuck on the radio station. Go no, man,

539
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 5: They're not saying that. They're saying funk. And I go, oh,

540
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:53,719
Speaker 5: get the front. Okay, I got I gotta got it,

541
00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 5: you know. But I mean a lot of things had

542
00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 5: had changed, and uh, I got luck, very lucky. I was.

543
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 5: I literally was working in a photo mat booth when

544
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 5: of those little yellow yeah, yeah, one of those little huts.

545
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 3: It was.

546
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 5: It was in the hood and on Rodeo uh uh

547
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 5: and off Crenshaw It's right next to a Pioneer Chicken.

548
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 5: And I was, you know, I came back. I didn't

549
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 5: come back with a lot of money or whatever. So

550
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,040
Speaker 5: I just got a part time job. Because that that job,

551
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 5: I could work from three to eight and I could

552
00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 5: look for a real job during the day. And I

553
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 5: was trying to be a writer. I was applying to

554
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,800
Speaker 5: Rolling Stone through Benfunctories and trying to you know, but

555
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 5: everything was on spec. Everybody said, well, you know the

556
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 5: way we do it here, and I said, well, I

557
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,720
Speaker 5: need some money. So I found this job, and I said,

558
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 5: you know, I figured I'd only worked there for a

559
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,520
Speaker 5: couple of weeks, which is what happened. I only worked

560
00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 5: there for a couple of weeks. But it was one

561
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 5: of those crazy jobs where people they were it was

562
00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 5: always getting robbed, and they had women there all before me.

563
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 5: So they hired me because they thought it would be

564
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:59,480
Speaker 5: more you know, I'd be more intimidating, and they I

565
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 5: don't know why people would want to rob the photo

566
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 5: map booth. There's not a lot of money.

567
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: Wait, CA explain this.

568
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 2: To me because I was way too young. But like

569
00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 2: photo mat is, those booths were literally like the size

570
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: of telephone booths, right, Yeah.

571
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 5: I could barely fit in it. I mean every time

572
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 5: I moved, I knocked something over my knees or something.

573
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 5: You know there was but it was like just an

574
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 5: easy job.

575
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,280
Speaker 2: You know, you would just take the photos or like,

576
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: would you have to process the photos too? No?

577
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 5: What It's basically drop off the driveway. So people would

578
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 5: come in, they would bring their film and then I'd

579
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 5: give them a receipt and put it in and then

580
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 5: when the film came, delivery truck would come by and

581
00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 5: drop off the process films. So all I was was

582
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 5: a cashier and you know, exchanging film, collecting film, and

583
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 5: then giving people their photos.

584
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: After Back to the Future stopped seeing those photo Yeah, they.

585
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 5: Were around for a while, you know. And so and

586
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 5: I remember one time guy calls me up and says, hey,

587
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 5: we're gonna come down and rob rob the place. Go okay,

588
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,239
Speaker 5: well thanks for the head up. What's up, you know?

589
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 5: And I went to I went and sat in Pioneered Chicken.

590
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 5: I called the manager. I said, hey, man, uh, these

591
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 5: guys I got to calls they're going to rob the place.

592
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 5: I'm gonna sit in here for a few minutes and

593
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 5: see if anyone comes by. If they don't, I'll go

594
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:16,800
Speaker 5: back in the head.

595
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 1: You know, Oh my god, this it was this crazy.

596
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 5: Now, that was really culture shock, you know, coming from

597
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,960
Speaker 5: because I had I had not really lived, uh in

598
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 5: a black area like that. I wasn't raised in that

599
00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 5: area and that was an all black ghetto areas, so

600
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 5: that was a difference from living in London. So it

601
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 5: was a cultural shock on many levels. But it was

602
00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 5: while I was working in there a photographer named Bruce Tolloman.

603
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 5: I don't know if you've heard. Yeah, so Bruce Jackson's.

604
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: And yeah, Parliament you know Bruce Tolloman.

605
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, Bruce. Bruce also went to Whittier College.

606
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: So legend legendary photographer, like.

607
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, legendary, you know. And he worked for He's got

608
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 5: a great book out too, a great cop the table

609
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 5: Book at if you haven't seen it.

610
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 2: I got that for someone gave it to me for

611
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 2: my fiftieth birthday, and he was kind of up to

612
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 2: sign it for me.

613
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, and he's, uh, you know, he's been he's had

614
00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 5: a really stellar career and he heard that. I saw

615
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 5: his name in the staff for Soul Magazine with Gennys

616
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 5: Jones Soul Magazine because I was going to try to

617
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:25,000
Speaker 5: write for that, and then I saw Bruce and I

618
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 5: so I called him up and said, hey, Bruce Man,

619
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 5: how are you doing. I see you're like a photographer,

620
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 5: blah blah blah. I'm trying to get into business here.

621
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 5: And so he said, well, you know, I know, I

622
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 5: think somebody at this guy Bob Jones at Motown, who

623
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:43,520
Speaker 5: is the black publicist there at the time. He's looking

624
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 5: for I think he's looking for an assistant. Would you

625
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 5: be interested? I said, yeah, sure, you know, have him

626
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:51,840
Speaker 5: call me, you know, or I'll call him whatever. And

627
00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 5: Bob Jones called called me while I was working at

628
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 5: PHOTOO Photo my boot and he said, Hey, would you

629
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 5: like to come in and interview for a junior publicist

630
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 5: position at Motown? And Motown had just moved from Detroit

631
00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 5: and they were based. They moved into the CNN building

632
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 5: on Sunset.

633
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 1: That's where their first This was seventy seven.

634
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 5: Uh yeah, this was seventy seven, and they moved to

635
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 5: they moved out of Detroit to Hollywood for the first time.

636
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: You got to explain something to me, what is the

637
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 2: What was the role of Iris Gordy, because you know,

638
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:41,120
Speaker 2: coming of age and being a fan of like High

639
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 2: Energy Switch, just a lot of those Lovesmith, like a

640
00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 2: lot of those seventies Motown groups and even Apollo. You know,

641
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:54,479
Speaker 2: they would often go on soul training. I would hear

642
00:33:54,560 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 2: Don talk about Iris Gordy. What was Iris's role in

643
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,040
Speaker 2: the mid seventies period of Motel.

644
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:05,480
Speaker 5: I think she's more or less in A and R

645
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 5: artist development.

646
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:11,720
Speaker 1: I'm still wrestling with the fact that you have thirty.

647
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:13,879
Speaker 4: Dude, you know I got I got the I got

648
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:17,240
Speaker 4: like the Spanish forty five of you got a whole Saturday,

649
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,480
Speaker 4: Like you don't understand what's going on over here.

650
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,719
Speaker 2: Your back all of all, we've been we've been doing

651
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 2: this for just six years now, Steve, You've totally outdone yourself.

652
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:29,960
Speaker 6: But it looks like a it looks like a filter,

653
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 6: but it's not. It's actually Steve forty copies of the

654
00:34:32,719 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 6: Basic Roller. I'm sorry.

655
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 4: I mean, people got to check out this record for

656
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 4: even my dream interview.

657
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: I'm still like I'm right now. It's it's taking a

658
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 2: lot of rint space in my head.

659
00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: This. I bring you a copy. I'm going to bring

660
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: you a copy tomorrow. Thank you, Steve.

661
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 6: Steve is at your Shawshank record, like you have to

662
00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 6: buy it if you're in the thing, like you have

663
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 6: to watch Shawshank if it's on.

664
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 4: This is absolutely this is the record. I own the

665
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 4: most copies of it so much. It started with it

666
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 4: started with the A track. I had the A track

667
00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:05,600
Speaker 4: of this back in the day. It was like the

668
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 4: first cool music I ever heard. Okay, let's let's not

669
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,200
Speaker 4: it's my first musical memory quest.

670
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 2: All right, let's might get into the rabbit hole, all right.

671
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: So I was asking what was Iris Gordy's role?

672
00:35:18,719 --> 00:35:20,960
Speaker 5: I think so, I mean it was you know, you

673
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 5: got to remember too, you know, this is in uh

674
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 5: I'm I'm not from Detroit. You know, it's a familyiness

675
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,920
Speaker 5: and there was a lot of Gordy's involved with it.

676
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 5: And when you come in in my role as sort

677
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 5: of a I was just a burgeoning publicist. So I

678
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 5: didn't even deal with I knew who Iris was, and

679
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 5: I dealt with her very minimally. I mean I was

680
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 5: They had a very structured class system at Motown.

681
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 1: So how was it?

682
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 2: What what was the modus operandi at Motown doing that

683
00:35:58,480 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 2: period that you were out there. I've heard stories about

684
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 2: how they operated in Detroit, and you know, they all

685
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 2: use their IDs and took meticulous notes as far as

686
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 2: like union scales and all those things. But what was

687
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,360
Speaker 2: your experience there and what was the everyday operations.

688
00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 5: Like, Well, my my primary job was to serve as

689
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,479
Speaker 5: a writer and a publicist for a lot of those

690
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 5: junior you know, like at that time, Eddie Kendricks had

691
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 5: had left, you know, and David Ruffin had left, Edwards

692
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 5: had left so there was like three temptations that were

693
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 5: all working on solo records, Junior Walker and the All

694
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 5: Star Dynamic Superiors. THELM. Houston.

695
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: You work with the Dynamic Superiors.

696
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, man, I did their publicity and I got all

697
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 5: those second tier guys. But you know, the same time

698
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 5: I worked with you know, I got a chance to

699
00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 5: work with Stevie Wonder, and I got a chance to

700
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 5: see the campaigns for like Dana Ross and the Four

701
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 5: Tops and Marvin and you know. So it was just,

702
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 5: I mean to be able to get to have that access,

703
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,879
Speaker 5: not to them, I wasn't out there partying with them

704
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 5: or whatever, but just to have the access to see

705
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,719
Speaker 5: how they were treated compared to the Dynamic Superiors or

706
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 5: Junior Walker and the All Stars, and all those guys

707
00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,279
Speaker 5: were frustrated. I mean, Eddie Kindricks used to just yell

708
00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 5: at me and just say hey, you know, I'd say, Eddie, look,

709
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:41,400
Speaker 5: I'm not in charge, bro, Yeah, do you want to

710
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 5: do the interview or not? If you don't want to

711
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 5: do it, it's cool, you know, I'll try something else.

712
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 5: You know. But they were all frustrated because there was

713
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 5: such a you know, Barry had a really it was

714
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,480
Speaker 5: like a university, but it was also like very competitive

715
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,800
Speaker 5: and he hand selected who's going to be famous. Leon Ware,

716
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:03,919
Speaker 5: for example, I worked with leon Ware. Leon Ware gave

717
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,680
Speaker 5: Marvin Gay I Want You that whole album, and it

718
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,839
Speaker 5: broke him as an artist. You know. He told me that,

719
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,919
Speaker 5: you know personally that that record, that record was meant

720
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 5: for him, and Barry told him that, hey, look, I

721
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 5: can release this record on you and I don't know

722
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 5: how much is how well it's going to do, but

723
00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 5: if you give this record to Marvin, you're gonna make

724
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 5: tons of money. And he did, he gave the record. Yeah,

725
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,880
Speaker 5: So he put people in different situations like that. You know.

726
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 2: Maybe twelve years ago, I saw an ep K for

727
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,839
Speaker 2: Songs in the Key of Life, in which I mean

728
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,120
Speaker 2: they did this thing where they like rented out this

729
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: ranch and invited all these people from the press and whatnot,

730
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 2: and it's literally like they documented the press hearing songs

731
00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,960
Speaker 2: in the Key of Life for the first time, and

732
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 2: you know, faces on them and everything, and you're literally

733
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:01,759
Speaker 2: watching them.

734
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:03,399
Speaker 1: I mean, they edited nicely, but.

735
00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 2: I remember Stevie came in with a weird cowboy hat on.

736
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 2: Like they were they were like on a ranch or whatever.

737
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:16,279
Speaker 2: But just in general, how you know, was there much

738
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 2: strategy behind how Motown operated, at least as on the

739
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 2: publicity side of things, on how they operated and handled things,

740
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: or was it just generally.

741
00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 5: No, it was very It was very structured and very restraining.

742
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 5: For example, Bob Jones allowed to pitch any of the

743
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 5: major white magazines, like, say what Bob Jones, who'd been

744
00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 5: there for like I don't know when I got there,

745
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:49,399
Speaker 5: he'd already been there for ten years or something. He

746
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 5: wasn't allowed to speak to Newsweek, Time, Life, all the

747
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 5: biggest entertainment magazines. There was a guy named Mike Roskin

748
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 5: who was the vice chairman of the company, and he

749
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 5: took control of all the major big artists and he

750
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,840
Speaker 5: personally pitched those people. So me, as the lowly publicist

751
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,799
Speaker 5: that just came in, I was assigned to only deal

752
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 5: with black press, you know. So I dealt with you know,

753
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 5: Marie Moore from the Answer Damn News, Gertrude Gibson from

754
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:27,959
Speaker 5: the La Sentinel, you know, all the Earl Callaway from

755
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:33,520
Speaker 5: Chicago Defender and yeah, yeah, all the local folks. Those

756
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,319
Speaker 5: are my go to guys, the Baltimore Son, Yeah, Baltimore's son,

757
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,080
Speaker 5: all those things. And I used to write what they

758
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:43,279
Speaker 5: call canned features, and they they would use them verbatim

759
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 5: and just put their name on it. But I didn't

760
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 5: care because I wasn't getting paid any extra money, you know.

761
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 5: So but because a lot of the black newspapers and

762
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:56,520
Speaker 5: magazines didn't have enough money to first, you know, they're

763
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 5: very limited in staff. So but I dealt with the

764
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:02,400
Speaker 5: Regina Jones and Steve Ivory.

765
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: And uh, Steve Legendary Steve.

766
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 5: I yeah, so all those guys were, you know, my

767
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 5: go to people. But you know, I thought, like, for

768
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 5: a young guys, I need to do something more than

769
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 5: just do black press that really make a name for myself.

770
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:19,279
Speaker 5: And so I decided without asking anyone. At the time,

771
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:22,520
Speaker 5: the Commodoores were just starting to break. They had their

772
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 5: first hit single, I forgot what it was. It was

773
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 5: before Machine Gun, but it was off their first album, right,

774
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 5: and they were starting to gain some some traction, And

775
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:34,319
Speaker 5: so I decided I was going to call a newsweek

776
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 5: and pitched them to do a story on the Commodores.

777
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 5: And so I called the guy and he says, uh,

778
00:41:42,840 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 5: forgot what his name was, And he said, well, who

779
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,160
Speaker 5: are you? And I said, well, my name is Ramon

780
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 5: Hervey and I'm a publicist at Multi see. Yeah, but

781
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:52,200
Speaker 5: I don't I don't deal. I don't normally deal with

782
00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:58,720
Speaker 5: anyone Motown except for my Mike Roskin, right, And I said, oh, okay, well,

783
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 5: you know, well I'm calling you. Are you interested in,

784
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 5: you know, possibly doing a story or whatever. He goes, well,

785
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,279
Speaker 5: let me, uh, let me get back to you. H

786
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 5: on it. So he immediately calls Mike and he says, hey,

787
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 5: some kid calls me today and I thought we had

788
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 5: a deal, you know, blah blah blah. So then I

789
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 5: go into Bob Jones calls me in his offices. What

790
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 5: the hell are you doing?

791
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 3: Man?

792
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:25,120
Speaker 5: You called Newsweek. I don't even I can't even call Newsweek.

793
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 5: You're in trouble. I don't even know if I can

794
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 5: keep you, if you're going to keep your job. He goes,

795
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 5: Roskin wants wants to meet with you. So I had

796
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:35,399
Speaker 5: to go up to Roskin, and you know, I mean,

797
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 5: he was kind of cool. He says, said, hey, well,

798
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 5: we have a we have some policies here, some regulations

799
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 5: that you need to follow if you're going to work here.

800
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 5: And I said, okay, well, you know, nobody told me

801
00:42:44,600 --> 00:42:49,239
Speaker 5: I wasn't allowed to talk to other media. He goes, well, yeah,

802
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 5: there are certain things that we do here and you're

803
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:56,000
Speaker 5: not allowed to talk to these people. That's what I do.

804
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:58,640
Speaker 5: And I said, okay, well I stand correct. You know,

805
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 5: thanks for the heads up, and you know they didn't

806
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 5: fire me. But I realized then I got to get

807
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 5: out of here because if I can't have that, you know,

808
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 5: any latitude to grow then and you know Bob Jones

809
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 5: wasn't going to give up his job, right, So I

810
00:43:11,760 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 5: just said, I gotta find another outlet.

811
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 1: So you're saying that.

812
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:22,719
Speaker 2: For entry artists at Motown and non A list frontline

813
00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: artists ie Diana Stevie, there was a limit to where

814
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 2: you could go. And I guess for you that the

815
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:35,759
Speaker 2: limit was maybe Jet or possibly Ebony or I don't

816
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 2: know if Ebany was considered.

817
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 5: Jet, but Jet, and I don't think I was allowed

818
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,080
Speaker 5: to pitch Ebane. I was allowed to speak to Jet

819
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 5: for sure, because I knew Bob Johnson and Silvery planning again,

820
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:48,840
Speaker 5: and they were always trying to get they were always

821
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 5: trying to get money. And I said, Bob, I don't

822
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:55,800
Speaker 5: do advertising, I do put you know, there's other people

823
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,359
Speaker 5: at the company that you need to talk to here

824
00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 5: to get advertising. But he was always saying, well, if

825
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 5: we do a story, can we get some ads?

826
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 2: And you know, I was just going to ask, how

827
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:05,680
Speaker 2: does that work with a group like the Commodores, in

828
00:44:05,760 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: which you know, there's clearly a point where like in

829
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: seventy five they were a black act, and then come

830
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,000
Speaker 2: seventy seven when that self titled record came out with

831
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 2: you know, easy and Brickhouse on it, when they suddenly

832
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 2: became like triple platinum and there and thank god it's

833
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:27,800
Speaker 2: Friday and Lionel was about to you know, spread his wings.

834
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:30,360
Speaker 1: Then suddenly they only.

835
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:32,760
Speaker 2: Deal with the top tier, the guy above Bob Jones,

836
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,120
Speaker 2: which is yeah.

837
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 5: Pretty much pretty much shifts like that, and you see

838
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 5: how they the hierarchy like. But you know, one of

839
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 5: the highlights of my time in Motown was I got

840
00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 5: to work with STEVIEE. Wonder on songs of the Key

841
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,400
Speaker 5: of Life. Okay, And I was in the marketing meeting

842
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 5: that only someone at his leverage and cloud could even demand.

843
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,879
Speaker 5: So he called a meeting and he wanted everybody from

844
00:44:57,960 --> 00:45:00,719
Speaker 5: all the divisions to come in so that they could

845
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 5: tell him what they're going to do, or songs of

846
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 5: the key you know that that only you know, probably him,

847
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 5: Marvin Diana uh probably did simptations. The four Tops like those,

848
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 5: the Jackson Five, those groups could probably command that, their

849
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,160
Speaker 5: managers could command that. But all those other guys, they

850
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 5: would never get an opportunity to meet with the whole

851
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 5: staff of the label. And one of the first things

852
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,880
Speaker 5: that Stevie said, and I mean I was I was

853
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:31,640
Speaker 5: so hyped because I hadn't met him yet and just

854
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 5: meeting with him, and especially that album. I think of

855
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,600
Speaker 5: that album as probably the you know, pinnacle of his career.

856
00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:42,160
Speaker 5: And one of the first things he said is, Okay,

857
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 5: so just to set the tone for this meeting, I

858
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 5: want to I would like to request I want a

859
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 5: billboard in Times Square that's so big and so bright

860
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:58,279
Speaker 5: that even I can see it. He had that kind

861
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 5: of charisma and he was but he was dead serious,

862
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 5: and you know, just the way that he commanded the meeting.

863
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 5: I was so thrilled. I just I've remembered that line forever.

864
00:46:07,440 --> 00:46:09,200
Speaker 5: I've even asked him a couple of times over the

865
00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:12,720
Speaker 5: years because I've had a great friendship with Stevie since

866
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 5: that day when I did R and B live and stuff,

867
00:46:15,600 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 5: he came and performed, and I just really have so

868
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 5: much respect for him as an artist. Everything he's done with,

869
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 5: you know, Martin Luther King Holiday, He's just had such

870
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 5: an incredible career. But that was a great experience. And

871
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:32,400
Speaker 5: then one of the problems with that album that a

872
00:46:32,440 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 5: lot of people don't realize is it had a twenty

873
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 5: four page leaflet songbook inside. Yeah, and when you add

874
00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 5: the shrink, when you shrink wrap that with a double album,

875
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 5: and then you have this twenty four page There were

876
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 5: stories breaking in the news that there was more returns

877
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 5: on that album because of the war page. Yeah, And

878
00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:56,839
Speaker 5: so I did some research on it to find out

879
00:46:57,480 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 5: what was the percentage of warpage that comes with every album,

880
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,799
Speaker 5: and I found out that the percentage is I was

881
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 5: like under ten percent, around under ten percent of all

882
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 5: the albums being released in those days would there would

883
00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:17,000
Speaker 5: be a warpage issue and returns based on warpage. And

884
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 5: so I talked to this guy in manufacturing to get

885
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 5: his figures, and then I was able to get a

886
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:31,320
Speaker 5: story in Billboard to say that the information was misinformed,

887
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 5: and that the percentage of warpage for Stevie's album was

888
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 5: not as great. It was on par with the same

889
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 5: amount of warpage for any album, right, and it was

890
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 5: So I turned around then of it. And then I

891
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 5: got in trouble for that too, because they hail was

892
00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 5: this elderly black woman it was. She was the head

893
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 5: of manufacturing and she called me in tour office and

894
00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 5: got pissed off that one I went to a low

895
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,240
Speaker 5: person in her to get information and I didn't clear

896
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,239
Speaker 5: it with her. So there was all these kind of

897
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:10,479
Speaker 5: departmental things that I just you know, know, there wasn't

898
00:48:10,520 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 5: a guidebook. They don't give you like a you can't

899
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:15,279
Speaker 5: talk to this person, get this through that. You guys

900
00:48:15,320 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 5: have to find your way, you know.

901
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 3: Politics.

902
00:48:18,800 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, I want to move on past Motown, but

903
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 2: since you're already there, I gotta know this. Why did

904
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:34,440
Speaker 2: Motown never use a consistent manufacturer? Like one of the

905
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:40,239
Speaker 2: weirdest things about Motown to me was, you know, like,

906
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 2: okay for with Steve with his ninety Bay City rollers

907
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 2: back there.

908
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm here.

909
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: I you know, I have a large record collection myself

910
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 2: in which I've purchased maybe you know, maybe I have

911
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,800
Speaker 2: ten copies of songs in the Key of Life. But

912
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 2: my question is that I know that obviously Motown had

913
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:09,319
Speaker 2: to use various pressing plants, independent pressing plants across the

914
00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: United States in the world, because the ink, like the

915
00:49:12,440 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: fonts of the ink for you know, if you brought

916
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 2: the album down South and Georgia somewhere is different than

917
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,360
Speaker 2: if you brought it in New York, and different than

918
00:49:20,360 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 2: if you brought in LA And I just never understood

919
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 2: why a label of Motown's magnitude never just had one

920
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 2: consistent pressing plant, Like was Motown basically still an independent

921
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 2: label even though they were the biggest black label.

922
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 5: Yeah? That was you know Barry thought. I think he

923
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 5: believed that he had more power, more influence as an

924
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 5: independent label than he would if he cut a distribution deal.

925
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:57,359
Speaker 5: He would make more money. He was willing to take

926
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,880
Speaker 5: those risks that you're talking about of working with all

927
00:49:59,880 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 5: the independent once stops and manufacturing centers around. But and

928
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 5: he couldn't compete, you know. I think it was an

929
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 5: issue of these bigger companies, you know, taking a big

930
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 5: piece of independent companies and being able to offer record

931
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 5: stores and stuff a bigger piece at a pie. It

932
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:28,360
Speaker 5: was very difficult for him and to stay independent. He

933
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 5: wasn't the only one that was trying to do it,

934
00:50:30,320 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 5: but it was very, very difficult. But I think that

935
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,160
Speaker 5: was a it was a numbers games to him, you

936
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 5: know at the time that he felt, you know, that

937
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 5: he was going to win bigger by staying independent than

938
00:50:41,200 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 5: doing a distribution to with someone.

939
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 2: And what was the logic and the reason for why

940
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:51,279
Speaker 2: Motowl never registered with the r I A A. Like

941
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: every television appearance I would hear like and the Jackson

942
00:50:55,200 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 2: sold you know, seven million units, I'll be there, like

943
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: it would just be like these really crazy numbers.

944
00:51:03,960 --> 00:51:05,879
Speaker 1: So what was like the logic of not.

945
00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:11,640
Speaker 2: Joining the Recording Industry Associations of America And.

946
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:15,880
Speaker 1: How did that affect I think.

947
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 5: It's because he didn't want to be He didn't want

948
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,439
Speaker 5: to have to be certified. He wanted to be able

949
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 5: to use his own publicity and say whatever he wanted

950
00:51:23,600 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 5: without being questioned. I mean, you know, that's the only

951
00:51:26,400 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 5: thing that I could think of at the time, was

952
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:32,360
Speaker 5: he didn't want to have buy on you know, he

953
00:51:32,400 --> 00:51:36,799
Speaker 5: could always exaggerate, you know, and all the companies were exaggerating.

954
00:51:36,880 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 5: I mean used to you know, the big thing in

955
00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 5: those days was to say that a record ship platinum.

956
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,640
Speaker 5: And you know, it's not how many records you ship,

957
00:51:44,719 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 5: that's how many you sell. But you know, life they realized,

958
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 5: you know, they'd run these stories, Oh it's and sort

959
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 5: of ship platinum, but every turn gold. You know, so

960
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:56,479
Speaker 5: you know, did you.

961
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 2: Guys, did you guys numbers?

962
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 5: It was a big part of the record business thing.

963
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,360
Speaker 5: So I think that he was part of, you know,

964
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 5: wanting to be able to control the narrative of what

965
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:11,239
Speaker 5: his company really represented in the marketplace.

966
00:52:11,840 --> 00:52:12,080
Speaker 1: Yeah.

967
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 2: I was going to say, now with streaming, especially in

968
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: the movie business, like, the one thing I'll never know

969
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: is how much money my film actually made exactly, Like

970
00:52:23,600 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 2: that's the one thing they won't allow me to do.

971
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,680
Speaker 2: I can't look at the numbers at all to see

972
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 2: if we did nine hundred million or just one million.

973
00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 5: So right, Yeah, it's it's red tape. It's the red

974
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,799
Speaker 5: tape of being involved. And you know that's the same

975
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 5: thing that you've been dealing with with your film. That's

976
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 5: been going on for years in the film business too,

977
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 5: where they tell you, oh, well, we didn't recoup you know,

978
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 5: the whole idea is, you know, if you don't have

979
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:53,399
Speaker 5: to tell your artist, you don't have to quantify how

980
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 5: many records and you could you can you can also

981
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 5: tell them that you owe us more money than you

982
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 5: owe us, right. But I think that a lot of

983
00:53:01,160 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 5: why he had so much frustration with a lot of

984
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:07,760
Speaker 5: the artists because the numbers didn't match what they felt

985
00:53:07,800 --> 00:53:11,839
Speaker 5: they should should be getting, you know, and he got

986
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:15,400
Speaker 5: a bad rep for you know, supposedly shortcoming you know,

987
00:53:15,680 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 5: uh short short sty selling everybody and not paying them

988
00:53:21,000 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 5: what they were entitled to.

989
00:53:27,000 --> 00:53:29,759
Speaker 2: So what was your next step after Motown? Like, what

990
00:53:29,960 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 2: was your last period at Motown? And what was the

991
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:33,240
Speaker 2: next step afterwards?

992
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 5: Then that was I got laid off because they were

993
00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 5: having a really tough winter and they were old a

994
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 5: lot of money, you know, in terms of you know,

995
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 5: a lot of what people don't realize is there's a

996
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 5: when you're an independent company, you can't afford to not

997
00:53:50,600 --> 00:53:55,040
Speaker 5: get paid for like ninety days. So they were getting old.

998
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 5: They were being old a lot of money because a

999
00:53:57,120 --> 00:54:00,200
Speaker 5: lot of companies just weren't paying them and so they

1000
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:01,799
Speaker 5: had to lay off a bunch of people. And I

1001
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 5: was one of the people that was laid off, and

1002
00:54:04,200 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 5: Bob Jones was kind enough to one He let me

1003
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 5: write for some other magazines like Black Star. I don't

1004
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:13,640
Speaker 5: remember if you remember Black Stars, Black Star, You remember

1005
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 5: Black Stars.

1006
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,359
Speaker 1: Black Stars and the CPA, Yes, I remember them.

1007
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:20,720
Speaker 5: So I wrote for that under a pseudonym. Ray Trish

1008
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 5: was my name, and he told me I could you know,

1009
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,680
Speaker 5: he helped to introduce me to He said, look, I

1010
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:28,720
Speaker 5: know we not I can't get you any more money,

1011
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:31,520
Speaker 5: but you know you could write for some magazines. I'll

1012
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:34,319
Speaker 5: refer you. So I wrote for a lot of other

1013
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,840
Speaker 5: magazines at the time as a freelancer, but I couldn't

1014
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 5: use my own name. And he told me that this

1015
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,280
Speaker 5: company named Rogers and Cowan, which is actually a very

1016
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 5: famous PR company. They were actually the first independent public

1017
00:54:48,600 --> 00:54:54,200
Speaker 5: relations company in Hollywood when the studios originally started. You know,

1018
00:54:54,320 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 5: they controlled everything. You know, they basically employed the all

1019
00:54:57,719 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 5: the actors and there were no managers and no agents

1020
00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 5: and no publicists. And they were the first company to

1021
00:55:03,120 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 5: be an independent publicist where big stars like Nally Wood

1022
00:55:06,360 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 5: and Robert Wagner and people of Paul Newman could actually

1023
00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:13,439
Speaker 5: go and have their own publicity and at this time

1024
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,680
Speaker 5: there was an emergence of agents like the William Morrises

1025
00:55:16,719 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 5: and all those you know agents started around the same time.

1026
00:55:21,480 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 5: So he told me that Paul Block, this guy Paul Block,

1027
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:29,440
Speaker 5: who was the head of music over there, was hiring

1028
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:33,720
Speaker 5: freelance writers, right, and he said, you know, we're probably

1029
00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:35,959
Speaker 5: going to hire you back, but this will maybe hold

1030
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 5: you over. And so that's when I went to meet

1031
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:43,799
Speaker 5: with Paul Block to see if he would hire me

1032
00:55:43,880 --> 00:55:46,160
Speaker 5: to do some freelance work. And was after work, was

1033
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,400
Speaker 5: at seven o'clock. I had a GELOPI of a car.

1034
00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 5: I had a Dodge Dart and I didn't have enough

1035
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:59,560
Speaker 5: money to had no reverse. What I had no reverse,

1036
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:01,320
Speaker 5: I didn't have enough money to fix it. So I

1037
00:56:01,400 --> 00:56:03,680
Speaker 5: used to drive around to find the right parking space.

1038
00:56:04,080 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 5: I couldn't do any valet parking or whatever. And I

1039
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 5: was drive around the finest spot where I can go.

1040
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 1: Up into a spot.

1041
00:56:12,320 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 6: Yeah, but you couldn't even go in head first. You

1042
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 6: could go head first anywhere because you have to back out.

1043
00:56:18,480 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 5: Exactly all right. So you know, I was waiting to

1044
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 5: get enough money to fix my reverse, and so I

1045
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:30,360
Speaker 5: went to Beverly Hills their offices were on Bedford and Wiltshire,

1046
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:33,920
Speaker 5: and I went in to meet with Paul, and here's

1047
00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 5: a nice guy. Didn't really give me any guarantee that

1048
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 5: I would get hired or not. And then I went

1049
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 5: back to my car kind of a little bit deflating

1050
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:47,040
Speaker 5: and disappointed and realized that I'd screwed up and I

1051
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:51,520
Speaker 5: had I couldn't pull my you know, somebody had parked

1052
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 5: in front of me, so I had to back the

1053
00:56:54,520 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 5: car up, and this guy saw me trying to you know,

1054
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:00,880
Speaker 5: I was leaning and trying to you know, those cars

1055
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:05,279
Speaker 5: were kind of heavy. So this guy comes up and says, hey, man,

1056
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 5: you comes with your car And I said, yeah, it's

1057
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 5: just I guess my it seems like my reverse is

1058
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 5: not working. I'm not really sure. I mean I lied,

1059
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:16,160
Speaker 5: pretend like I didn't really know what was wrong with

1060
00:57:16,200 --> 00:57:18,640
Speaker 5: my car, and he helped me and I finally got

1061
00:57:18,640 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 5: out of there. And then about two weeks later, I

1062
00:57:21,440 --> 00:57:23,040
Speaker 5: got a call from Paul and he says, hey, do

1063
00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:24,760
Speaker 5: you want to come in and work on I have

1064
00:57:24,800 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 5: a project that I think I could use you for.

1065
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 5: You come in, I'll tell you what it's for. And

1066
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:34,520
Speaker 5: he says, well, he said, I one of my clients

1067
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 5: is Paul McCartney. I said, wow, Paul McCartney from the Beatles,

1068
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:42,400
Speaker 5: Paul McCartney. He goes, yeah, that Paul McCartney, and I said, wow, yeah, yeah,

1069
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 5: I would love to work on the Beatles, I mean,

1070
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,000
Speaker 5: you know. So what I found out was that Paul

1071
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:52,440
Speaker 5: had bought the publishing to the Buddy Holly catalog, so

1072
00:57:53,400 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 5: he had owned it, and he was doing a week

1073
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 5: of you know, in a special Buddy Holly week in

1074
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 5: the you K and he wanted a press kit put together,

1075
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 5: and so I was my task was to write all

1076
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,480
Speaker 5: the materials that would go in the press kit for

1077
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 5: them to use for him to use to launch that week.

1078
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 5: And so that was my first project at Rogers and Cowan.

1079
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 5: And I didn't talk to Paul, but he approved all

1080
00:58:19,000 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 5: everything that I did, and and they ended up hiring

1081
00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 5: me as a as a publicist based on my work.

1082
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: I'm Paul McCarthy.

1083
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 5: And then I ended up being like a gay guy

1084
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 5: on on Paul's account in LA and then he had

1085
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 5: another guy working in New York, but Paul was really

1086
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 5: the head guy. Okay, I you know, I I Linda

1087
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:44,640
Speaker 5: McCartney and Lee Eastman, his father in law, and it

1088
00:58:44,720 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 5: was a couple of meetings and on phone call and stuff.

1089
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 5: I didn't really get to know him very well, but

1090
00:58:50,480 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 5: I got a chance to work on his an account

1091
00:58:52,160 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 5: and I learned so much. I mean, he had one

1092
00:58:54,720 --> 00:58:59,960
Speaker 5: of the biggest publishing MPL communications. He owned so much publishing,

1093
00:59:00,080 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 5: it's just amazing. It was like books of it. And

1094
00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:05,360
Speaker 5: I got to see all he owned, like over one

1095
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:09,280
Speaker 5: hundred fight songs from all the major colleges across the

1096
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:14,840
Speaker 5: US really usually won schools. I mean, it just was unbelievable,

1097
00:59:15,440 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 5: just so many songs.

1098
00:59:18,000 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 2: Well, it said that he's the one that taught Michael

1099
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,040
Speaker 2: Jackson about like the power of owning publishing.

1100
00:59:23,960 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 5: Yeah. Well apparently what ended up happening was that he

1101
00:59:27,560 --> 00:59:33,440
Speaker 5: told him that Capital had offered, you know, to buy

1102
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:38,400
Speaker 5: for giving them an opportunity to buy their catalog back right. Yeah,

1103
00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:40,400
Speaker 5: And he was telling Michael, you know, I just couldn't

1104
00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:43,080
Speaker 5: pull my I couldn't convince myself to pay that much

1105
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 5: money for songs that we wrote, you know, And so

1106
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,760
Speaker 5: he turned it down. But then Michael went back and

1107
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:55,000
Speaker 5: told Mike Stewart at Mike Stewart was ahead of publishing

1108
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 5: at Sony at the time, and Mike Stewart helped him

1109
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 5: purchase the music.

1110
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 2: It's Paul's fault, man, he should have Always claim your legacy,

1111
01:00:05,480 --> 01:00:06,640
Speaker 2: Always claim your legacy.

1112
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,360
Speaker 6: Well, what's your take on people these days selling their

1113
01:00:09,400 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 6: catalogs and that being a thing that people do these days?

1114
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 6: Do you you see it as fortuitous or not?

1115
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,200
Speaker 5: You know, I think it's I think it's a great.

1116
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 5: It's great for these a lot of artists that are

1117
01:00:19,320 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 5: not really relevant, you know, on streaming services and stuff.

1118
01:00:22,680 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 5: They're not making a lot of money. But these are

1119
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:28,400
Speaker 5: companies that their job is to, you know, try to

1120
01:00:28,400 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 5: make money after publishing off placement and sinking and all

1121
01:00:31,560 --> 01:00:33,560
Speaker 5: that stuff. So I think it's I think it's great.

1122
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:38,400
Speaker 5: I've seen it. It's amazing that they you know, I

1123
01:00:38,520 --> 01:00:43,200
Speaker 5: kind of it's a it's a further development from when

1124
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,640
Speaker 5: I guess maybe ten years ago, when Live Nation and

1125
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:53,680
Speaker 5: AEG started paying huge amount of money for artists rights,

1126
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:58,080
Speaker 5: you know, to circumvent agents and you know where they

1127
01:00:58,440 --> 01:01:01,000
Speaker 5: would you know, end labels. You know, they wanted to

1128
01:01:01,040 --> 01:01:04,439
Speaker 5: really monopolize and control, and this is just another form

1129
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,320
Speaker 5: of that where you know, publishing has always been an

1130
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 5: annuity for artists if they understood it that it's something

1131
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:15,720
Speaker 5: that lasts in perpetuity, and so I would always say,

1132
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:17,760
Speaker 5: hang on to it. But if someone's going to give

1133
01:01:17,800 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 5: you three hundred million dollars and you're still going to

1134
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:23,880
Speaker 5: you know, make money, you know, that's a lot of

1135
01:01:23,920 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 5: money to turn.

1136
01:01:24,640 --> 01:01:29,280
Speaker 1: Down spending it now. Yeah, I you know I did that, right, Bill?

1137
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:34,080
Speaker 1: What you do sold my publishing? Did you sell a posting?

1138
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 6: I sold it so you could pay for the new house.

1139
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,760
Speaker 3: Exactly all of it, all of it.

1140
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:44,680
Speaker 1: Because it's like the logic was, they did the math

1141
01:01:44,720 --> 01:01:47,600
Speaker 1: for me, and basically.

1142
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 2: The way I was going now, I would have gotten

1143
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:57,600
Speaker 2: the full value of my lifetime work. But maybe when

1144
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 2: I was seventy seven years old, so I could either

1145
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:03,760
Speaker 2: they did the math, like we can either give this

1146
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,160
Speaker 2: all to you right now, like what you would make

1147
01:02:07,240 --> 01:02:09,360
Speaker 2: up into seventy seven years old, or we could just

1148
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:10,520
Speaker 2: pay you off a.

1149
01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,400
Speaker 1: Little bit at a time, a little bit at a time.

1150
01:02:12,840 --> 01:02:14,560
Speaker 2: And you know, the Roots are just one of those

1151
01:02:14,560 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 2: prestige artists that like selling records.

1152
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:24,560
Speaker 1: Was never our thing. And I mean for the most part, licensing,

1153
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 1: you know, like.

1154
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 3: You still have to get permission for licensing, correct, Like

1155
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:29,920
Speaker 3: it's not full out you sold it, and they can

1156
01:02:30,000 --> 01:02:31,280
Speaker 3: just do whatever they want to with it.

1157
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 2: I mean, we have a very specific arrangement, so you know,

1158
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 2: I don't want my shit being used for like mega

1159
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 2: parades or anything.

1160
01:02:39,760 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 3: Right, That's what I'm asking. But if I didn't ask,

1161
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:43,440
Speaker 3: you want to disclose that information, I'm like, you'll want

1162
01:02:43,440 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 3: people out here thinking the music could.

1163
01:02:45,200 --> 01:02:45,920
Speaker 5: Just be anywhere.

1164
01:02:46,000 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 2: No, there's there's always sort of stipulations, like depending on

1165
01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:51,640
Speaker 2: what it is.

1166
01:02:51,840 --> 01:02:58,000
Speaker 1: I mean, for the most part, Yeah, I decided to It's.

1167
01:02:57,840 --> 01:03:01,080
Speaker 2: Not as big as a Bob Dylan deal or you

1168
01:03:01,120 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 2: know McCartney deal.

1169
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 5: But but you started in nineteen eighty seven, right with

1170
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:05,840
Speaker 5: the roots.

1171
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:12,280
Speaker 2: Well I'm a technically eighty seven, but we got ninety three. Yeah,

1172
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 2: it's thirty years for us, and so.

1173
01:03:14,480 --> 01:03:17,080
Speaker 5: You earned the right to do that. That's why I'm

1174
01:03:17,080 --> 01:03:19,600
Speaker 5: saying that people you know who've been in the industry

1175
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:23,600
Speaker 5: a long time. You know, you guys have been you know, performing.

1176
01:03:23,920 --> 01:03:27,960
Speaker 5: I've seen you guys perform several times. In fact, we met.

1177
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:29,880
Speaker 5: I don't even know if you remember, but we met

1178
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 5: when d Jane yeah with feet are.

1179
01:03:33,720 --> 01:03:37,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, totally remember that. Maybe you well you.

1180
01:03:37,160 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 5: Try to like you, No, I just didn't know the radar. No, no,

1181
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,320
Speaker 5: I just didn't know if you remember how how we met.

1182
01:03:44,360 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 2: But yeah, that was absolutely Yeah, you're the first time

1183
01:03:47,680 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 2: when I did a speeches a solo solo situation. Yeah,

1184
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 2: you start your your book at a very curious place.

1185
01:03:57,120 --> 01:04:02,320
Speaker 2: You start with the Richard Prior story, and that particular

1186
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:06,960
Speaker 2: chapter in chapter one, to me, I was very curious

1187
01:04:06,960 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 2: about that, only because kind of one of the prevalent

1188
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:14,280
Speaker 2: themes on the show that we often talk about that

1189
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:20,760
Speaker 2: I'm often curious about is when a creative or an

1190
01:04:20,840 --> 01:04:24,640
Speaker 2: artist sort of subconsciously lets you know that they don't

1191
01:04:24,680 --> 01:04:30,960
Speaker 2: want to do this anymore. And oftentimes it'll happen. They'll

1192
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 2: react in ways that will let me know that. And

1193
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 2: oftentimes artists will self sabotage, you know, a good thing,

1194
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 2: and there's ways to do it. There's you know, I

1195
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:47,800
Speaker 2: mean lightweight stuff like gambling, and you know, for you,

1196
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 2: especially as a manager, I know that time management is

1197
01:04:52,760 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 2: also a way that an artist will express their unhappiness

1198
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 2: with the situation. I'm certain you've dealt with artists that

1199
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 2: last minute, we'll cancel something.

1200
01:05:02,720 --> 01:05:02,920
Speaker 1: You know.

1201
01:05:03,120 --> 01:05:05,280
Speaker 2: I used to always joke that I always felt the

1202
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:09,400
Speaker 2: Jackson's made up. I only knew the Jackson's got exhaustion.

1203
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:13,360
Speaker 1: That's why, like, right.

1204
01:05:15,240 --> 01:05:17,919
Speaker 2: Right, I've never seen the word exhausting you so much.

1205
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 2: Whenever it's like I canceled, Mike origanet like exhaustion, okay, whatever.

1206
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 1: But for you, though, just.

1207
01:05:30,080 --> 01:05:34,000
Speaker 2: The amount of fires that you've had to put out

1208
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:38,200
Speaker 2: with every client that you've had, like it's like you're

1209
01:05:38,240 --> 01:05:42,480
Speaker 2: being sent out into the front lines and you go

1210
01:05:42,640 --> 01:05:46,600
Speaker 2: off on Yes, while he is holding.

1211
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,920
Speaker 3: Up I'm holding up the chapter where he says a

1212
01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,680
Speaker 3: path of self destruction can sabotage fame?

1213
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:56,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so well, one, I wanted to know why you

1214
01:05:56,120 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 2: felt this is a very unique interpretation of your life,

1215
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 2: that is, that isn't a biography or memoir. And as

1216
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 2: I said at the top of it, I feel like

1217
01:06:09,880 --> 01:06:15,560
Speaker 2: this book is important for the future managers or really,

1218
01:06:15,640 --> 01:06:18,200
Speaker 2: like to me, I think it's important for interns because

1219
01:06:18,320 --> 01:06:21,880
Speaker 2: I know every intern I ever met in nineteen ninety

1220
01:06:21,920 --> 01:06:24,960
Speaker 2: three is now CEO that I work with, and it

1221
01:06:24,960 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 2: always starts with Hey, you don't remember it, but you

1222
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 2: came to my college back to then and back when

1223
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:29,800
Speaker 2: I was an intern.

1224
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: But for you.

1225
01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 2: To be at the Helm especially like the way you

1226
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:44,400
Speaker 2: started that Richard Pryor chapter in your book, Why would

1227
01:06:44,480 --> 01:06:49,120
Speaker 2: you want to subject yourself to that level of torture

1228
01:06:51,000 --> 01:06:54,920
Speaker 2: and not saying it's all bad, but you know, like

1229
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 2: surely you're you have to be living every day like

1230
01:06:59,320 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 2: any moment, I'm going to get a call at three

1231
01:07:01,040 --> 01:07:02,840
Speaker 2: a m. And I got to get I got to

1232
01:07:02,840 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 2: put a fire out.

1233
01:07:05,440 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 5: It did come to that, but I didn't. I didn't

1234
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:11,440
Speaker 5: think that going in, Like I had bright lights and

1235
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 5: I thought, Wow, I'm getting a chance to represent Richard Pryor,

1236
01:07:14,480 --> 01:07:18,080
Speaker 5: someone who I really respected, who I knew about, who

1237
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:20,600
Speaker 5: I was a fan with. You know, he was given

1238
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:26,160
Speaker 5: a black kid, you know, young still, you know, by

1239
01:07:26,200 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 5: that time, I was pretty experienced. But his manager, David Franklin,

1240
01:07:30,920 --> 01:07:36,520
Speaker 5: he made sure that when he that he wanted He said,

1241
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 5: Richard really wants you to do this, and we want

1242
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 5: to make sure that you're going to be the one

1243
01:07:40,280 --> 01:07:43,200
Speaker 5: to do it. We want you to be responsible. So

1244
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:45,160
Speaker 5: I thought, wow, this is great, you know, to have

1245
01:07:45,200 --> 01:07:48,160
Speaker 5: a you know, at that point, Richard was really you know,

1246
01:07:48,240 --> 01:07:50,440
Speaker 5: he was one of the top paid black actors in

1247
01:07:50,480 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 5: the business. He had been successful as a writer, he

1248
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 5: had had a lot of success, you know, and so

1249
01:07:58,080 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 5: it was like a real feather in my cap to

1250
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:04,439
Speaker 5: get him as a client, you know. And I was thinking, Wow,

1251
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 5: I can do you know, There's no limits to what

1252
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:10,440
Speaker 5: I can do with this guy from a pr standpoint.

1253
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 5: So that was where my thinking was, like, this is

1254
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 5: gonna be a great opportunity. I'm going to make him

1255
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 5: even a bigger star than he already is.

1256
01:08:18,120 --> 01:08:18,280
Speaker 3: Uh.

1257
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 5: And then when I got into trenches, it wasn't quite

1258
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 5: the opportunities that I thought were there. Weren't one hundred

1259
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 5: percent there because he was, you know, he was very unpredictable,

1260
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 5: and he was going through a lot of personal issues

1261
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 5: with his drugs and alcohol and stuff like that. And

1262
01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,679
Speaker 5: you mentioned at three o'clock, you know what. The first

1263
01:08:40,720 --> 01:08:44,880
Speaker 5: time that that happened, he was supposed to do a

1264
01:08:45,800 --> 01:08:50,320
Speaker 5: he had agreed the headline for the Brotherhood Black Crusade,

1265
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:55,639
Speaker 5: which is a very well known organization, fundraising organization, community

1266
01:08:55,720 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 5: organization in Los Angeles and a guy named Danny Bakewell

1267
01:08:58,840 --> 01:09:02,479
Speaker 5: was the founder of it and still has kept the

1268
01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:07,200
Speaker 5: organization going. But Richard called, and at that time it

1269
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 5: was his wife, Jennifer. They called me at three o'clock

1270
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:13,559
Speaker 5: in the morning and they're kind of giggling. I can

1271
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:16,639
Speaker 5: kind of tell their hw and stuff, and they tell

1272
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 5: me that Richard wants to Richard wants to cancel his performance.

1273
01:09:21,200 --> 01:09:25,280
Speaker 5: It was like early Saturday morning and the show wasn't

1274
01:09:25,360 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 5: until he wasn't gonna go on until like nine to

1275
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:31,680
Speaker 5: twenty the next night, right, So he says, well, you know,

1276
01:09:31,760 --> 01:09:34,440
Speaker 5: we went to the doctors and he has gastro internitis.

1277
01:09:34,479 --> 01:09:36,920
Speaker 5: I didn't even know what gastro in tonitis was, so

1278
01:09:37,200 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 5: I had to look it up and I we had

1279
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:43,719
Speaker 5: the stomach ache, you know, basically that's a fancy word

1280
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:47,479
Speaker 5: for stomach ach medical terms. I said, well, you know,

1281
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 5: why don't you guys go to sleep and let's just

1282
01:09:51,800 --> 01:09:56,519
Speaker 5: re you know, reconnect in the morning, Uh, you know,

1283
01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:58,200
Speaker 5: get a good night's sleep. I can call you around

1284
01:09:58,240 --> 01:10:00,439
Speaker 5: eleven and then we'll decide what we should. I mean,

1285
01:10:00,479 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 5: you know, you don't have to go on until nine o'clock.

1286
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:05,760
Speaker 5: Maybe your stomach will be feel better by then. And

1287
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:07,600
Speaker 5: I said, also, I really don't want to. You know,

1288
01:10:07,640 --> 01:10:09,679
Speaker 5: he wanted me to make an announcement, and I said

1289
01:10:09,720 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 5: that there's no place I can go. You know, at

1290
01:10:12,439 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 5: that point, there was no social media or whatever like that.

1291
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:17,080
Speaker 5: And the only way I could break a story like

1292
01:10:17,160 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 5: that was I could go to AP Associated Press, and

1293
01:10:21,640 --> 01:10:23,439
Speaker 5: I said, I don't want to do that, and I

1294
01:10:23,479 --> 01:10:26,400
Speaker 5: wanted to wait and talk to Danny Bakewell to see

1295
01:10:26,400 --> 01:10:30,640
Speaker 5: what he thought what would work best for him. I

1296
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,960
Speaker 5: did end up talking to Danny in the morning, and

1297
01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:38,519
Speaker 5: I convinced Richard that I would create a statement to

1298
01:10:38,600 --> 01:10:42,000
Speaker 5: be read and that we wouldn't announce it nationally as

1299
01:10:42,040 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 5: a national thing. We just announced it at the venue

1300
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 5: because a lot of people, do you know, it's just

1301
01:10:47,240 --> 01:10:49,720
Speaker 5: a charity event, and not everybody needed to know that

1302
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:52,920
Speaker 5: he was canceling it, right except for the people that

1303
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 5: were in there. And he also agreed to donate ten

1304
01:10:56,439 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 5: thousand dollars to the Brotherhood Crusade. I said, So Danny

1305
01:11:01,680 --> 01:11:04,040
Speaker 5: was fine with that. So I went there that night,

1306
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:07,720
Speaker 5: you know, and I had prepared the statement with the

1307
01:11:07,800 --> 01:11:11,680
Speaker 5: idea that Danny Bakewell would read the statement to the

1308
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:15,080
Speaker 5: audience and also tell them. So when I got there,

1309
01:11:16,120 --> 01:11:18,080
Speaker 5: I hadn't met Danny. I'd only talked to him on

1310
01:11:18,120 --> 01:11:21,839
Speaker 5: the phone. So I said, well, Danny, here's the statement

1311
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,120
Speaker 5: that Richard wants you to read. He goes, I'm not

1312
01:11:24,160 --> 01:11:26,560
Speaker 5: reading that. He said, you're here, you're his guy. So

1313
01:11:26,720 --> 01:11:28,559
Speaker 5: you go up there and read it. And it was

1314
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 5: at the shrine. I said, oh, man, you're kidding me, like,

1315
01:11:31,439 --> 01:11:33,720
Speaker 5: you know, really, So I had to go up on

1316
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:37,800
Speaker 5: stage and tell five thousand black people who were expecting

1317
01:11:38,439 --> 01:11:42,919
Speaker 5: Richard Prior to perform. And that was really the beginning.

1318
01:11:43,000 --> 01:11:47,000
Speaker 5: It set a pattern of just having to do that

1319
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 5: all the time.

1320
01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:48,720
Speaker 1: You know.

1321
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 5: Richard was just one of those guys. He was unpredictable

1322
01:11:51,920 --> 01:11:53,920
Speaker 5: and I'd come to the office some days and I

1323
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:57,400
Speaker 5: just never knew what he was going to so you

1324
01:11:57,560 --> 01:11:59,040
Speaker 5: just kind of hope that, you know. And then there

1325
01:11:59,120 --> 01:12:01,400
Speaker 5: was other things that he did do. For example, the

1326
01:12:01,520 --> 01:12:04,000
Speaker 5: Richard Prior Life and Concert film was my you know,

1327
01:12:04,160 --> 01:12:07,439
Speaker 5: was an idea I brought to him. That wasn't It

1328
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:10,160
Speaker 5: wasn't my idea to do the contract. But somebody came

1329
01:12:10,200 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 5: to me, a guy by the name of Bill sargent

1330
01:12:13,120 --> 01:12:15,600
Speaker 5: Well I mentioned in the book. He's the guy that

1331
01:12:15,720 --> 01:12:18,679
Speaker 5: offered fifty million dollars for the Beatles to your Reunion tour.

1332
01:12:19,120 --> 01:12:20,880
Speaker 5: And he said, Hey, I want to do a live concert.

1333
01:12:20,880 --> 01:12:22,599
Speaker 5: And I said, well, I think that's a really great idea.

1334
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:24,720
Speaker 5: I don't know if I can sell it, but and

1335
01:12:25,080 --> 01:12:27,439
Speaker 5: you know, David and Richard gave me their blessings and

1336
01:12:27,479 --> 01:12:29,680
Speaker 5: I helped to put that whole thing together. So you

1337
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:32,519
Speaker 5: get those kinds of moments and you think, well, you know,

1338
01:12:32,520 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 5: if I can do more of that, that offsets those

1339
01:12:35,360 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 5: other times when I'm canceling signatory whatever.

1340
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:42,240
Speaker 1: But you gave.

1341
01:12:42,320 --> 01:12:44,040
Speaker 3: I just wanted to give you your props and at

1342
01:12:44,120 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 3: least at the least in the richer prior chapter, because

1343
01:12:46,439 --> 01:12:49,360
Speaker 3: not only do you account for all these events, but

1344
01:12:49,400 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 3: you also give perspective and where Richard came from and

1345
01:12:52,880 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 3: kind of telling his story to give you know, this

1346
01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:58,160
Speaker 3: kind of twenty twenty two. I always say lens of

1347
01:12:59,160 --> 01:13:01,320
Speaker 3: cause and effect basically, right.

1348
01:13:01,880 --> 01:13:04,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, different, you know, like you know, Richard did a

1349
01:13:04,479 --> 01:13:07,360
Speaker 5: lot of things he never got canceled, like what happened

1350
01:13:07,400 --> 01:13:11,000
Speaker 5: with Dave Chappelle. And you know, Richard, people just loved

1351
01:13:11,040 --> 01:13:13,720
Speaker 5: him because he was so vulnerable and he shared, He

1352
01:13:13,840 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 5: turned his cont his his misfortune into comedy in a

1353
01:13:19,040 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 5: way that it was resonated with people, and they forgave him.

1354
01:13:23,120 --> 01:13:26,800
Speaker 5: They always forgave him of everything, and he he you know,

1355
01:13:27,240 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 5: as I think you noticed in the book he created

1356
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 5: a pattern that was very successful for him in terms

1357
01:13:34,360 --> 01:13:37,720
Speaker 5: of marketing. The way he marketed his fame and his persona.

1358
01:13:38,320 --> 01:13:42,479
Speaker 5: You know, his comedy, live concert film. You know, there's

1359
01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,600
Speaker 5: very rare, you know, as a strategic uh, you know,

1360
01:13:45,680 --> 01:13:48,599
Speaker 5: crisis manager, whatever, the first thing you say is let's

1361
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:51,519
Speaker 5: do something and let's move away from Let's figure out

1362
01:13:51,560 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 5: a way to put that in the past. And he

1363
01:13:54,000 --> 01:13:57,760
Speaker 5: found a way to actually allowed that the fuels a

1364
01:13:57,800 --> 01:13:58,719
Speaker 5: lot of his comedy.

1365
01:13:59,240 --> 01:13:59,920
Speaker 1: All right, So I.

1366
01:14:01,439 --> 01:14:04,599
Speaker 2: Forgot where I read it, But there was a show

1367
01:14:04,640 --> 01:14:11,000
Speaker 2: that he did at the Hollywood Bowl. I'll remember there's

1368
01:14:11,040 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 2: a famous photo where he says, I want you all

1369
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:19,320
Speaker 2: to kiss my happy black ass. He's a little I

1370
01:14:20,280 --> 01:14:23,240
Speaker 2: think it was like he was doing a benefit. It

1371
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:24,559
Speaker 2: was like an l g b t Q.

1372
01:14:25,920 --> 01:14:32,680
Speaker 5: I was representing bet Midler then, yes, so that was

1373
01:14:32,680 --> 01:14:38,479
Speaker 5: a star spangled night for rights. Bet Midler's manager, Aaron Russo,

1374
01:14:38,680 --> 01:14:43,240
Speaker 5: came up with the idea and we and I was

1375
01:14:43,320 --> 01:14:45,840
Speaker 5: I really had a big role in that because we

1376
01:14:45,880 --> 01:14:48,240
Speaker 5: met with all these gay you know, l g b

1377
01:14:48,360 --> 01:14:52,679
Speaker 5: Q organizations from San Francisco. Because we donate the money

1378
01:14:54,040 --> 01:14:57,400
Speaker 5: from the concert and Richard agreed to do it, but

1379
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:00,800
Speaker 5: I didn't. I didn't represent Richard then, okay, But I

1380
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:05,280
Speaker 5: literally was on the stage and I was six feet

1381
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:08,200
Speaker 5: away from him before he went on, and I stayed

1382
01:15:08,240 --> 01:15:10,120
Speaker 5: on the stage because I was such a big fan

1383
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:11,960
Speaker 5: I wanted to see him close up. So I was

1384
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:14,679
Speaker 5: on the wing of the stage watching that all happen,

1385
01:15:15,160 --> 01:15:18,040
Speaker 5: and he walked right by me. After he did that,

1386
01:15:18,320 --> 01:15:21,160
Speaker 5: he walked off the stage and went straight to his

1387
01:15:21,280 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 5: limbo and left.

1388
01:15:22,280 --> 01:15:23,040
Speaker 1: I heard it was.

1389
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:26,240
Speaker 2: It was described someone say it was the cabaret version

1390
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:27,839
Speaker 2: of Altamont.

1391
01:15:28,320 --> 01:15:33,479
Speaker 5: If you know what happened, it was he freaked out everybody.

1392
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:35,760
Speaker 5: I mean, he just went and you could watch him

1393
01:15:35,800 --> 01:15:38,479
Speaker 5: turn as it was, you know, he started off and

1394
01:15:38,640 --> 01:15:42,360
Speaker 5: people were laughing and whatever, and then he just dark

1395
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:45,439
Speaker 5: and he just I don't know if he realized there

1396
01:15:45,680 --> 01:15:49,400
Speaker 5: or if he was misled, but he just really turned

1397
01:15:49,439 --> 01:15:50,640
Speaker 5: on the audience.

1398
01:15:55,760 --> 01:15:59,920
Speaker 1: Can you give me an example, because oftentimes I say,

1399
01:16:00,240 --> 01:16:03,080
Speaker 1: I see that you you are thrown in the front

1400
01:16:03,120 --> 01:16:09,439
Speaker 1: line to strategize something or think of a spin or

1401
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:14,320
Speaker 1: fix this real quick. Can you just in your whole career, like, what.

1402
01:16:14,400 --> 01:16:19,800
Speaker 2: Was the one time where you felt like whatever spin

1403
01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:22,759
Speaker 2: you had to put on something that you know, maybe

1404
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 2: this might engulf you or kind of you know, you

1405
01:16:27,880 --> 01:16:30,680
Speaker 2: might get drawn into the tornado yourself, like this is

1406
01:16:30,680 --> 01:16:31,960
Speaker 2: something that you can't handle.

1407
01:16:33,920 --> 01:16:36,400
Speaker 5: I don't know. I've never thought there's something I couldn't handle.

1408
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:40,479
Speaker 2: So you're not handling this with with fear because even

1409
01:16:40,520 --> 01:16:43,519
Speaker 2: then you have to like meet with people. You got

1410
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:46,160
Speaker 2: to be the bearer of bad news. I'm sorry, my client,

1411
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:48,160
Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah blah. It's not going to make it.

1412
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:53,040
Speaker 5: You know, well, you you learn, you know, you build

1413
01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:56,280
Speaker 5: up a resiliency, like Richard Richard prior telling me how

1414
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:59,479
Speaker 5: to be resilient because he was constantly forced me to

1415
01:16:59,479 --> 01:17:00,639
Speaker 5: be chimes too.

1416
01:17:00,760 --> 01:17:02,040
Speaker 1: Rick James was another.

1417
01:17:01,800 --> 01:17:06,240
Speaker 5: Guy that tested me my you know, my resolve and

1418
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:09,360
Speaker 5: my ability to just you know, because I really I

1419
01:17:09,400 --> 01:17:11,840
Speaker 5: really admired Rick and thought he had a lot of talent.

1420
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 5: You know, he was a really skilled musician, and but

1421
01:17:16,560 --> 01:17:19,639
Speaker 5: he was just his own worst enemy. But I always

1422
01:17:19,680 --> 01:17:21,680
Speaker 5: wanted him to win, and I was trying to come

1423
01:17:21,760 --> 01:17:24,559
Speaker 5: up for ways to help him win because I thought, like,

1424
01:17:24,680 --> 01:17:28,320
Speaker 5: you know, I did feel like he had a potential

1425
01:17:28,400 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 5: to be bigger than what he was, and it becomes.

1426
01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:34,519
Speaker 5: But but I never gave up on that belief and

1427
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:36,479
Speaker 5: so that's what fueled my You know.

1428
01:17:36,760 --> 01:17:40,240
Speaker 2: But isn't it exhausting? But is it not exhausting to

1429
01:17:43,960 --> 01:17:46,760
Speaker 2: Is it not exhausting for you sometimes to have to

1430
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:52,000
Speaker 2: Jedi mind trick your artists, you know, like I know

1431
01:17:52,080 --> 01:17:52,920
Speaker 2: it is it is.

1432
01:17:53,160 --> 01:17:55,960
Speaker 5: There's times when I don't. I haven't enjoyed being a MOP.

1433
01:17:56,000 --> 01:17:58,439
Speaker 5: I'll be honest. I mean, it's not something that I

1434
01:17:58,479 --> 01:18:01,000
Speaker 5: wake up going like what problem can I fucking fix today?

1435
01:18:01,040 --> 01:18:03,240
Speaker 5: You know, that's not like I don't wake up with

1436
01:18:03,280 --> 01:18:06,559
Speaker 5: that attitude. But I just feel I just always felt

1437
01:18:07,000 --> 01:18:11,280
Speaker 5: comfortable with the pressure that I felt I would be

1438
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 5: able to if they trusted me that I could help them,

1439
01:18:16,320 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 5: we could achieve. Our collaboration to me, as you know,

1440
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:22,640
Speaker 5: artists and managers is really it's just a synergy and

1441
01:18:22,680 --> 01:18:25,080
Speaker 5: it's a shared vision. And you know, it's not like

1442
01:18:25,160 --> 01:18:27,640
Speaker 5: one or the other. It's if we can share a

1443
01:18:27,760 --> 01:18:30,800
Speaker 5: vision of what we hope to accomplish on, that's what

1444
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:34,080
Speaker 5: you really hope for. But it's not always possible for you.

1445
01:18:34,760 --> 01:18:35,920
Speaker 1: In getting to know.

1446
01:18:38,080 --> 01:18:40,760
Speaker 2: Some of your clients, do you often get to the

1447
01:18:40,800 --> 01:18:43,439
Speaker 2: heart of the matter, like are they talking at all

1448
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:47,519
Speaker 2: about like, hey, maybe I should see Like, I don't

1449
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:52,080
Speaker 2: know how prevalent seeing a therapist was to suggest in

1450
01:18:52,200 --> 01:18:55,719
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two or nineteen you know, now, of course,

1451
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 2: you know we throw everyone like therapy in the face,

1452
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:01,840
Speaker 2: and yes, mental health is everything in twenty twenty two,

1453
01:19:01,920 --> 01:19:06,880
Speaker 2: but back in nineteen eighty three, nineteen eighty four, if

1454
01:19:06,960 --> 01:19:10,400
Speaker 2: you since that an artist is sort of stuck in

1455
01:19:10,479 --> 01:19:14,240
Speaker 2: that place, like what what solutions are there that aren't

1456
01:19:14,360 --> 01:19:17,160
Speaker 2: you know what's perceived as embarrassing as oh, maybe I'd

1457
01:19:17,200 --> 01:19:19,840
Speaker 2: need to see somebody, you know, therapy wise.

1458
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:21,880
Speaker 5: No, I think there was there was up There were

1459
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:26,840
Speaker 5: times when I asked people, you know, have you given

1460
01:19:26,880 --> 01:19:31,640
Speaker 5: any thought to getting some help, you know, seeing a therapist,

1461
01:19:31,960 --> 01:19:34,960
Speaker 5: or you know, to really do you even think you

1462
01:19:35,000 --> 01:19:36,800
Speaker 5: have a problem? I means it seems like you do

1463
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:40,400
Speaker 5: have a problem, you know. You know, even with Don Cornelius,

1464
01:19:40,880 --> 01:19:45,800
Speaker 5: you know, he had a brain surgery and it made

1465
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:47,520
Speaker 5: him unstable.

1466
01:19:48,560 --> 01:19:50,320
Speaker 1: So you were there in eighty three when he had

1467
01:19:50,360 --> 01:19:51,160
Speaker 1: his aneurysm.

1468
01:19:52,280 --> 01:19:56,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, I wasn't close to him then, but by then,

1469
01:19:57,040 --> 01:20:02,280
Speaker 5: let me think, I'm trying to think when was the

1470
01:20:02,320 --> 01:20:08,080
Speaker 5: first soul train music Awards eighty seven. Yeah, so he had. Yeah.

1471
01:20:08,120 --> 01:20:11,040
Speaker 5: So it was after the you know, it was shortly

1472
01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:15,040
Speaker 5: after that that I became more I started doing pr

1473
01:20:15,120 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 5: for him. After the brain animism, he told me about it.

1474
01:20:19,040 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 5: But then when we were doing the Soul Train Awards,

1475
01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:25,120
Speaker 5: and I've worked on that show for at least five

1476
01:20:25,200 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 5: years or so, I remember him telling me that it

1477
01:20:30,000 --> 01:20:34,120
Speaker 5: made him moody, and sometimes he wasn't. He didn't know

1478
01:20:34,160 --> 01:20:37,439
Speaker 5: how he was going to react to certain things, and

1479
01:20:37,960 --> 01:20:40,719
Speaker 5: you know, you could see it, you know, actually happen

1480
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:43,599
Speaker 5: in real time a couple of times. The different things

1481
01:20:43,640 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 5: that he did that I think, you know, contribute were

1482
01:20:47,439 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 5: influenced by that. And I remember asking him once, have

1483
01:20:50,240 --> 01:20:57,120
Speaker 5: you thought about going back and getting another surgery done?

1484
01:20:57,280 --> 01:21:00,439
Speaker 5: And he said, I have thought about it and talk to

1485
01:21:00,479 --> 01:21:04,160
Speaker 5: the doctors, but the reality is they couldn't guarantee him

1486
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 5: that he would get better, and it also might even

1487
01:21:08,439 --> 01:21:12,080
Speaker 5: be worse. So, you know, these are things that people,

1488
01:21:12,320 --> 01:21:15,120
Speaker 5: you know, I don't think he told everybody that, but

1489
01:21:15,160 --> 01:21:18,720
Speaker 5: that's something I can say he shared with me, I mean,

1490
01:21:18,760 --> 01:21:20,800
Speaker 5: and just for him, you know, because he wanted me

1491
01:21:20,840 --> 01:21:24,680
Speaker 5: to understand and I was trying to understand him and

1492
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:28,559
Speaker 5: we had that kind of friendship. I mean, he wasn't

1493
01:21:28,600 --> 01:21:31,000
Speaker 5: like a total open book with me, but there were

1494
01:21:31,080 --> 01:21:33,080
Speaker 5: times when we would sit down and talk for a

1495
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:35,640
Speaker 5: couple of hours and he would tell me, you know,

1496
01:21:35,720 --> 01:21:39,200
Speaker 5: the different things, this frustration with just black people and

1497
01:21:39,200 --> 01:21:43,840
Speaker 5: black artists that wouldn't support him, and you know, and

1498
01:21:44,000 --> 01:21:46,040
Speaker 5: I always tried to help with any artist that I

1499
01:21:46,160 --> 01:21:48,800
Speaker 5: was managing or whatever. Like, you know, we got to

1500
01:21:48,840 --> 01:21:51,120
Speaker 5: do the Soul Training Music Awards, you know, because I

1501
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:54,120
Speaker 5: knew how hard it was, you know, when artists crossed

1502
01:21:54,160 --> 01:21:56,800
Speaker 5: over a lot of them forgot that, you know, someone

1503
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:59,400
Speaker 5: was the one who put him in a position to

1504
01:21:59,439 --> 01:22:00,720
Speaker 5: be on national television.

1505
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:03,599
Speaker 2: How long did you work with this whole train awards,

1506
01:22:03,960 --> 01:22:05,960
Speaker 2: the music awards.

1507
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:10,280
Speaker 5: Up until probably the first five years, I think, or

1508
01:22:10,360 --> 01:22:12,040
Speaker 5: six or seven years something like that.

1509
01:22:12,320 --> 01:22:16,759
Speaker 2: So you're leased there for ninety one ninety two. Yeah, Okay,

1510
01:22:17,400 --> 01:22:20,639
Speaker 2: I'm gonna debunk a major theory. I have a major

1511
01:22:20,680 --> 01:22:26,920
Speaker 2: theory that I'm afraid to ask you this question because

1512
01:22:26,960 --> 01:22:29,160
Speaker 2: I think I know the answer. But I'm gonna ask

1513
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:33,200
Speaker 2: this question anyway. So let's let's go February of nineteen

1514
01:22:33,240 --> 01:22:39,400
Speaker 2: ninety two. This is the infamous Michael Jackson crutches period

1515
01:22:39,880 --> 01:22:42,679
Speaker 2: where if you remember he did remember the time sitting down,

1516
01:22:43,720 --> 01:22:46,200
Speaker 2: This is what I think happened, and all you have

1517
01:22:46,240 --> 01:22:48,800
Speaker 2: to do is verify if it's true or not. All right,

1518
01:22:48,840 --> 01:22:51,080
Speaker 2: So based on our EMC search story, you remember the

1519
01:22:51,160 --> 01:22:55,920
Speaker 2: MC search story where hammer took it right, took a

1520
01:22:56,040 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 2: hit out right story right, and then it wound up

1521
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:07,000
Speaker 2: in Bob Jones's hands where he had to they had

1522
01:23:07,040 --> 01:23:10,200
Speaker 2: to manufacture and Artists of the Decade award for Michael

1523
01:23:11,040 --> 01:23:17,560
Speaker 2: to win, so that Michael concepcion. Okay, So that was

1524
01:23:17,600 --> 01:23:19,920
Speaker 2: the American Music Awards, which of course is a Dick

1525
01:23:19,960 --> 01:23:21,120
Speaker 2: Clark platform.

1526
01:23:21,640 --> 01:23:22,800
Speaker 1: That was also eighty nine.

1527
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:29,080
Speaker 2: So in February of ninety two, Dangerous is out and

1528
01:23:29,160 --> 01:23:32,320
Speaker 2: Michael is being given a Lifetime Achievement Award or whatever,

1529
01:23:32,360 --> 01:23:35,360
Speaker 2: like a made up award in Eddie Murphy and Elizabeth

1530
01:23:35,400 --> 01:23:39,760
Speaker 2: Taylor are presenting it to him, and Michael has crutches on,

1531
01:23:40,760 --> 01:23:44,080
Speaker 2: and you know, sympathy. This is like right after the

1532
01:23:44,600 --> 01:23:48,080
Speaker 2: Oprah interview and everything. So this is like a brief

1533
01:23:48,120 --> 01:23:52,920
Speaker 2: period where like empathy is really on Michael Jackson's side

1534
01:23:53,120 --> 01:23:56,759
Speaker 2: and he performs he was supposed to perform.

1535
01:23:56,880 --> 01:23:57,599
Speaker 1: Remember, the time.

1536
01:23:57,680 --> 01:24:00,479
Speaker 2: But you know, he has to sit in a wheelchair

1537
01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:03,320
Speaker 2: perform and he can't move whatever, so he's just basically

1538
01:24:04,040 --> 01:24:06,880
Speaker 2: performing from the top of you know, he's just used

1539
01:24:06,880 --> 01:24:10,599
Speaker 2: his souldiers in his neck and whatever. I don't buy

1540
01:24:10,640 --> 01:24:16,240
Speaker 2: that one bit. I believe that that was all. I

1541
01:24:16,240 --> 01:24:21,160
Speaker 2: don't believe that Michael Jackson injured his foot and rehearsals.

1542
01:24:21,600 --> 01:24:22,559
Speaker 1: But I smell.

1543
01:24:23,720 --> 01:24:28,240
Speaker 2: I smell only because Michael also had to do Dick

1544
01:24:28,280 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 2: Clark's American Music Awards for the same thing. And I

1545
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:36,479
Speaker 2: know that there's a rivalry between Don and Dick.

1546
01:24:37,280 --> 01:24:38,960
Speaker 3: So well, what are you proposing there?

1547
01:24:39,200 --> 01:24:42,240
Speaker 1: Come on, I I I'm calling foul.

1548
01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 2: I believe that there was a situation between Don and

1549
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:51,840
Speaker 2: Dick Clark American Music Awards and SoulTrain Awards, which this

1550
01:24:52,000 --> 01:24:56,000
Speaker 2: is Hatfield McCoy territory, and I think the compromise was

1551
01:24:56,080 --> 01:25:00,960
Speaker 2: made that. Okay, I wanted Tom I saw, but I'll

1552
01:25:01,000 --> 01:25:02,559
Speaker 2: sit in a wheelchair and perform it.

1553
01:25:03,840 --> 01:25:06,479
Speaker 3: It was a throne, by the way, It wasn't a throne,

1554
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:06,840
Speaker 3: but he was.

1555
01:25:08,120 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, but all right, can you my closest.

1556
01:25:12,120 --> 01:25:16,400
Speaker 5: I don't I remember the video because it was like

1557
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:20,680
Speaker 5: twelve minutes long, right, I don't. I don't. The performance

1558
01:25:20,720 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 5: doesn't stand out to me, but I just remember that

1559
01:25:23,120 --> 01:25:25,040
Speaker 5: there was a lot of work that went in to

1560
01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:28,400
Speaker 5: get Michael to do the show, and that at that time,

1561
01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:32,080
Speaker 5: you know, Michael had so much clout that he demanded

1562
01:25:32,160 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 5: he put together a video that was twelve minutes long

1563
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:40,240
Speaker 5: about himself. He submitted it to If you look back,

1564
01:25:40,600 --> 01:25:45,840
Speaker 5: it was perfectly the Grammys, American Music Awards and his

1565
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:50,280
Speaker 5: and the Soul Train Awards had to use that to

1566
01:25:50,400 --> 01:25:54,439
Speaker 5: introduce him. Then that's when after the video plays, then

1567
01:25:54,640 --> 01:25:59,479
Speaker 5: Eddie Murphy comes out. He made that a mandatory thing

1568
01:26:00,160 --> 01:26:02,720
Speaker 5: that all those major awards shows had to do that

1569
01:26:02,800 --> 01:26:05,799
Speaker 5: in order to get him on. And there was always

1570
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:09,759
Speaker 5: a lot of there was back and forth. If certain

1571
01:26:09,800 --> 01:26:13,280
Speaker 5: black acts did American Bandstand, don didn't want him on

1572
01:26:13,320 --> 01:26:16,840
Speaker 5: the show, and then the other way around, a big

1573
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:20,000
Speaker 5: act did soul Train first, then did Clark wouldn't want

1574
01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:22,200
Speaker 5: him on the show. And this went on the whole

1575
01:26:22,240 --> 01:26:26,320
Speaker 5: time that ours working. Really Yep, it wasn't. It wasn't

1576
01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:29,479
Speaker 5: just Michael. It was a lot of how the time.

1577
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:34,360
Speaker 2: I became aware of you, of course during the situation

1578
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:38,559
Speaker 2: with your ex wife having been around at the time

1579
01:26:39,840 --> 01:26:43,559
Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty three eighty four, you were brought aboard,

1580
01:26:44,000 --> 01:26:48,439
Speaker 2: I guess to sort of handle her press and whatnot.

1581
01:26:48,479 --> 01:26:52,680
Speaker 2: Can you talk about the situation of how you were

1582
01:26:52,720 --> 01:26:59,240
Speaker 2: brought into handle obviously for those that don't know, you know,

1583
01:26:59,439 --> 01:27:03,000
Speaker 2: it's amazing to me how you ushered as her manager,

1584
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:06,439
Speaker 2: like what would have been a tarnished career, Like you

1585
01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 2: managed to turn Vanessa Williams's entire trajectory around and made

1586
01:27:13,920 --> 01:27:18,200
Speaker 2: her way bigger than whatever being a Miss America could

1587
01:27:18,200 --> 01:27:21,080
Speaker 2: have promised her. But how did you get brought into

1588
01:27:21,160 --> 01:27:22,680
Speaker 2: the organization to fix it?

1589
01:27:23,280 --> 01:27:28,200
Speaker 5: There are two really huge misnomers about that whole situation,

1590
01:27:28,840 --> 01:27:30,400
Speaker 5: which I'm going to clarify for you.

1591
01:27:30,840 --> 01:27:33,760
Speaker 1: Yes, that have been part of history.

1592
01:27:33,439 --> 01:27:38,720
Speaker 5: And wrongly reported as they're just not authentic. One was

1593
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:42,599
Speaker 5: that Vanessa had a career. When I met her, she

1594
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:46,320
Speaker 5: didn't have a career. She was a beauty pageant winner.

1595
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:49,479
Speaker 5: She won a Miss America pageant, and what made it

1596
01:27:49,600 --> 01:27:53,920
Speaker 5: more significant for her than other pageant winners prior to

1597
01:27:53,960 --> 01:27:56,040
Speaker 5: her was the fact that she was black. So she

1598
01:27:56,160 --> 01:27:58,760
Speaker 5: was the first black Miss America in the sixteen three

1599
01:27:58,840 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 5: year history of the pageant. Right, she was a sophomore

1600
01:28:02,200 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 5: in college, and some woman from the New York State

1601
01:28:05,520 --> 01:28:08,960
Speaker 5: pageant saw her performing a play and said, wow, you

1602
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:11,479
Speaker 5: know you would be great. Have you ever thought of

1603
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:14,360
Speaker 5: being in a pageant? Her parents were school teachers, she

1604
01:28:14,439 --> 01:28:18,160
Speaker 5: had never been. It wasn't a career to being pageants, right,

1605
01:28:18,160 --> 01:28:21,679
Speaker 5: And when they told her that if you win Miss America,

1606
01:28:21,720 --> 01:28:25,720
Speaker 5: you get twenty five thousand dollars in scholarship money, she said, yeah, sure,

1607
01:28:25,760 --> 01:28:28,559
Speaker 5: I'll give it a try. So she ended up winning

1608
01:28:28,680 --> 01:28:33,480
Speaker 5: Miss New York. And then when you win, you automatically

1609
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:36,719
Speaker 5: get a bid to compete in the Miss America pageant,

1610
01:28:36,960 --> 01:28:40,360
Speaker 5: And so that all happened in six months. And once

1611
01:28:40,400 --> 01:28:46,920
Speaker 5: she won, I was representing an artist, a painter named

1612
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:50,400
Speaker 5: Phoebe Beasley who's pretty well known, and she does, you know,

1613
01:28:50,479 --> 01:28:54,719
Speaker 5: amazing collages and stuff. And she knew a guy named

1614
01:28:54,720 --> 01:28:57,760
Speaker 5: Dennis Doudell who was a handler for the NASA. He

1615
01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:00,719
Speaker 5: was really just a neighbor. Because her parents were school teachers,

1616
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:04,320
Speaker 5: and because she was the only black Miss America, they

1617
01:29:04,320 --> 01:29:07,960
Speaker 5: were being besieged by requests from black organizations to have

1618
01:29:08,280 --> 01:29:12,320
Speaker 5: Vanessa come and you know, make appearances, public appearances and such.

1619
01:29:12,920 --> 01:29:16,800
Speaker 5: So they asked for some help. And Dennis was a

1620
01:29:17,080 --> 01:29:20,080
Speaker 5: corporate lawyer for American can and he said, sure, I'll

1621
01:29:20,080 --> 01:29:23,439
Speaker 5: try to help out. And so he was really and

1622
01:29:23,520 --> 01:29:26,120
Speaker 5: Vanessa did want to have a career in the entertainment

1623
01:29:26,120 --> 01:29:29,400
Speaker 5: business once she finished her reign as Miss America. And

1624
01:29:29,479 --> 01:29:33,519
Speaker 5: so I, uh, my friend Phoebe, who was a client

1625
01:29:33,560 --> 01:29:36,200
Speaker 5: at the time, said hey, I reco wanted to know

1626
01:29:36,200 --> 01:29:38,680
Speaker 5: if I could recommend you to this guy. Do you

1627
01:29:38,680 --> 01:29:41,479
Speaker 5: know who Miss it who Vanessa Williams is And I said, yeah, yeah,

1628
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:43,640
Speaker 5: the black girl that won Miss America. I know she is.

1629
01:29:44,200 --> 01:29:46,320
Speaker 5: And he said, well, she wants to go into the

1630
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:48,679
Speaker 5: entertainment business. And I said, you should talk to Ramon.

1631
01:29:48,720 --> 01:29:51,040
Speaker 5: He'd be great to add to your team. And so

1632
01:29:51,120 --> 01:29:54,960
Speaker 5: I met with Dennis one time and he liked me,

1633
01:29:55,120 --> 01:29:58,320
Speaker 5: and I would like to introduce you to Vanessa. She's

1634
01:29:58,360 --> 01:30:01,559
Speaker 5: on the road every day right now. And I said, yeah, sure.

1635
01:30:01,640 --> 01:30:03,640
Speaker 5: You know, in fact I was. I was living in

1636
01:30:03,760 --> 01:30:05,519
Speaker 5: La then I flew to New York. I had launched

1637
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:07,320
Speaker 5: with him in New York, and I said, yeah, I'd

1638
01:30:07,320 --> 01:30:09,639
Speaker 5: be happy to meet with her. And you know, because

1639
01:30:09,800 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 5: for me just being a beauty pageant when even though

1640
01:30:13,280 --> 01:30:15,720
Speaker 5: it was Miss America, I didn't think that was an

1641
01:30:15,800 --> 01:30:19,920
Speaker 5: automatic ticket to being successful in entertainment business. So but

1642
01:30:20,000 --> 01:30:21,559
Speaker 5: I said, you know, yeah, if you guys are putting

1643
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:23,559
Speaker 5: together a team, you know, I'd be interested to see

1644
01:30:24,040 --> 01:30:27,920
Speaker 5: what can happen. And then I didn't hear from him

1645
01:30:28,000 --> 01:30:31,759
Speaker 5: for quite a while, and then this was in July,

1646
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:36,719
Speaker 5: probably mid July. I heard from him and he told

1647
01:30:36,720 --> 01:30:40,439
Speaker 5: me that he needed my advice on something, and so

1648
01:30:40,560 --> 01:30:43,240
Speaker 5: I said, yeah, sure, what do you need And he said, well,

1649
01:30:43,360 --> 01:30:47,599
Speaker 5: I heard there's some rumors of some pictures of Vanessa

1650
01:30:47,680 --> 01:30:50,600
Speaker 5: and I don't know if there if it's legit or not.

1651
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:53,479
Speaker 5: And I said, well, if you don't know if they're legit,

1652
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:56,000
Speaker 5: then don't say anything, don't do anything. You know, I'll

1653
01:30:56,000 --> 01:30:58,799
Speaker 5: see if I can nose around and find out anything.

1654
01:30:59,439 --> 01:31:02,680
Speaker 5: And then a couple of weeks past I told him

1655
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:05,720
Speaker 5: I hadn't found out. I couldn't. I didn't hear any

1656
01:31:05,760 --> 01:31:09,680
Speaker 5: wind of it. And then he said, well, the pictures exist.

1657
01:31:10,000 --> 01:31:13,600
Speaker 5: What should I do? And I said, well, have have

1658
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:16,920
Speaker 5: you seen the pictures as the pageant seen the pictures?

1659
01:31:17,000 --> 01:31:19,360
Speaker 5: He said no, I don't know if they have or not.

1660
01:31:19,479 --> 01:31:22,880
Speaker 5: And I again told him, you know, don't say anything

1661
01:31:22,920 --> 01:31:24,840
Speaker 5: if you don't really know what you're up against, then

1662
01:31:25,000 --> 01:31:28,240
Speaker 5: there's no way curve what the collateral gamage will be

1663
01:31:28,560 --> 01:31:31,280
Speaker 5: if you go out too soon in any kind of crisis,

1664
01:31:31,320 --> 01:31:33,800
Speaker 5: you need to know what you're up against. And so

1665
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:40,599
Speaker 5: ultimately the pageant did see the pictures and this guy,

1666
01:31:40,680 --> 01:31:43,160
Speaker 5: Albert Marx, who was the CEO of the pageant and

1667
01:31:43,240 --> 01:31:45,360
Speaker 5: had been for I don't know fifty years or whatever,

1668
01:31:46,040 --> 01:31:53,080
Speaker 5: he requested that the NASSA design. Didn't demand it, he

1669
01:31:53,200 --> 01:31:55,320
Speaker 5: requested it. And that's another thing that a lot of

1670
01:31:55,360 --> 01:31:59,479
Speaker 5: people whenever it's been reported that she was forced to resign,

1671
01:31:59,520 --> 01:32:02,479
Speaker 5: she wasn't forced to resign. She was requested. The reason

1672
01:32:02,520 --> 01:32:05,760
Speaker 5: they requested it because he didn't know legally whether they

1673
01:32:05,800 --> 01:32:08,640
Speaker 5: could actually fire her, and he didn't want to go

1674
01:32:08,840 --> 01:32:11,840
Speaker 5: into litigation about it. That's why he never said it.

1675
01:32:12,080 --> 01:32:16,200
Speaker 5: So he gave her seventy two hours to respond. And

1676
01:32:16,280 --> 01:32:19,519
Speaker 5: that's when Dennis called me and said, what should I

1677
01:32:19,520 --> 01:32:22,320
Speaker 5: I said, well, now we can do something. Now we

1678
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:26,320
Speaker 5: have Do you want me to control this and tell

1679
01:32:26,360 --> 01:32:28,720
Speaker 5: you guys what to do, or or do you want

1680
01:32:28,720 --> 01:32:30,880
Speaker 5: me just to tell you whatever whatever you want me

1681
01:32:30,880 --> 01:32:32,559
Speaker 5: to do, I'll try to help out. He goes no, no,

1682
01:32:32,600 --> 01:32:34,839
Speaker 5: I want you to manage it, take care of it. Whatever.

1683
01:32:34,960 --> 01:32:39,559
Speaker 5: So on Friday afternoon in La, I was, I was.

1684
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:42,080
Speaker 5: I had seventy two hours basically from the time that

1685
01:32:42,120 --> 01:32:44,959
Speaker 5: he had not announced it, which was around eleven o'clock

1686
01:32:46,240 --> 01:32:50,080
Speaker 5: on Friday morning New York Times. By time I found

1687
01:32:50,120 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 5: out about it, it was a little later. And so

1688
01:32:53,320 --> 01:32:54,640
Speaker 5: I said, here's what I think we should do. We

1689
01:32:54,680 --> 01:32:57,040
Speaker 5: should have a press conference in New York. I'll put

1690
01:32:57,080 --> 01:32:58,880
Speaker 5: it together. I don't care what you know. If she's

1691
01:32:58,880 --> 01:33:00,720
Speaker 5: going to resign, she doesn't really, then I need to

1692
01:33:00,760 --> 01:33:02,880
Speaker 5: know that right now. But I need to put together

1693
01:33:03,920 --> 01:33:06,800
Speaker 5: a photo news alert and get you know, get a

1694
01:33:06,800 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 5: commitment and see if we have enough press people that

1695
01:33:09,400 --> 01:33:12,000
Speaker 5: will come out to the press conference. And then what

1696
01:33:12,040 --> 01:33:15,559
Speaker 5: we'll do is we'll have one statement and that's what

1697
01:33:15,560 --> 01:33:15,880
Speaker 5: we'll do.

1698
01:33:16,439 --> 01:33:19,840
Speaker 2: Can I ask, was there not a person like the

1699
01:33:19,960 --> 01:33:22,840
Speaker 2: sisty person that's trying to like blackmail, like I have

1700
01:33:22,880 --> 01:33:25,719
Speaker 2: these photos and I want, you know, one hundred thousand

1701
01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:26,720
Speaker 2: dollars or nothing like?

1702
01:33:26,880 --> 01:33:27,160
Speaker 1: Was there?

1703
01:33:28,120 --> 01:33:33,040
Speaker 5: No? No, GUCCIONI had already uh uh had the magazine

1704
01:33:33,160 --> 01:33:35,559
Speaker 5: had her picture on the cover. That's what we saw.

1705
01:33:36,080 --> 01:33:37,280
Speaker 5: He was about to par so.

1706
01:33:37,240 --> 01:33:40,160
Speaker 1: He just he printed it with it so.

1707
01:33:39,960 --> 01:33:45,000
Speaker 5: Sat He claimed that he had a model release. So

1708
01:33:45,080 --> 01:33:48,599
Speaker 5: he had been planning this whole thing. He had planned

1709
01:33:48,600 --> 01:33:53,799
Speaker 5: it to happen before she ended her rock her reign

1710
01:33:53,840 --> 01:33:57,519
Speaker 5: as missing. We wanted it to happen before the next

1711
01:33:57,640 --> 01:34:02,559
Speaker 5: Miss America was in, you know, crowned, which was going

1712
01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:05,639
Speaker 5: to be a few weeks away. So there wasn't six

1713
01:34:05,680 --> 01:34:06,400
Speaker 5: weeks left.

1714
01:34:06,840 --> 01:34:09,720
Speaker 2: There wasn't at least a pre phone call, like much

1715
01:34:09,960 --> 01:34:12,080
Speaker 2: how much were me in that destroy your life right now?

1716
01:34:12,120 --> 01:34:12,800
Speaker 1: And none of that?

1717
01:34:13,600 --> 01:34:15,679
Speaker 5: Now he connived and planned the whole thing.

1718
01:34:16,120 --> 01:34:17,439
Speaker 3: And how was she this whole time?

1719
01:34:17,439 --> 01:34:17,519
Speaker 2: Like?

1720
01:34:17,560 --> 01:34:20,439
Speaker 3: What were her feelings? Was she angry? Was she like, well, I.

1721
01:34:20,400 --> 01:34:22,799
Speaker 5: Hadn't met her. I had never even met her. Wow,

1722
01:34:23,240 --> 01:34:26,599
Speaker 5: So what happened is she ended up confessing to Dennis

1723
01:34:27,000 --> 01:34:29,360
Speaker 5: that she did take the pictures, but she didn't sign

1724
01:34:29,360 --> 01:34:33,240
Speaker 5: a model release. And so that part I knew about

1725
01:34:33,560 --> 01:34:36,760
Speaker 5: before I came involved, But I literally got involved with

1726
01:34:36,920 --> 01:34:41,320
Speaker 5: seventy to two hours. My job was to come to

1727
01:34:41,479 --> 01:34:45,080
Speaker 5: a solution on how we're going to deal with this announcement,

1728
01:34:45,160 --> 01:34:47,320
Speaker 5: and I suggested the announcement so that she could go

1729
01:34:47,360 --> 01:34:50,120
Speaker 5: on with her life one time don't answer any questions

1730
01:34:50,120 --> 01:34:52,120
Speaker 5: from the press. You're going to do a statement. I'm

1731
01:34:52,120 --> 01:34:53,920
Speaker 5: going to hand the statement out to all the press.

1732
01:34:54,320 --> 01:34:57,200
Speaker 5: I hired an affiliate company in New York, a good

1733
01:34:57,200 --> 01:34:59,599
Speaker 5: friend of mine to help me set it up, and

1734
01:34:59,640 --> 01:35:02,200
Speaker 5: then night I took a red Eye to New York

1735
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:04,920
Speaker 5: and on the way this guy came picked me up

1736
01:35:04,960 --> 01:35:08,040
Speaker 5: at the airport at JFK. I drove out to Milwood

1737
01:35:08,160 --> 01:35:12,400
Speaker 5: where they live in Westchester County, and I got away there,

1738
01:35:13,040 --> 01:35:15,040
Speaker 5: Dinnis told me there was going to be a lawsuit.

1739
01:35:15,479 --> 01:35:18,880
Speaker 5: I go, okay, that's a lawsuit, hunht. So we got it.

1740
01:35:18,920 --> 01:35:21,000
Speaker 5: So now I'm finding out that I'm gonna have to

1741
01:35:21,000 --> 01:35:23,280
Speaker 5: deal with lawyers and they're going to have input on

1742
01:35:23,360 --> 01:35:26,720
Speaker 5: what the press statement can be. And when I got

1743
01:35:26,720 --> 01:35:32,759
Speaker 5: to Millwood, there was over four hundred and fifty media people,

1744
01:35:32,840 --> 01:35:39,360
Speaker 5: like an encampment taking over her neighborhood, across the street

1745
01:35:39,439 --> 01:35:41,960
Speaker 5: and everything. And that was the first time and you

1746
01:35:42,000 --> 01:35:44,720
Speaker 5: said that, did I have fear? I had fear then,

1747
01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:47,240
Speaker 5: because I said, Wow, this is a much bigger thing

1748
01:35:47,320 --> 01:35:50,160
Speaker 5: than I realized, because in La you know, it wasn't

1749
01:35:50,520 --> 01:35:53,719
Speaker 5: when I was in I just didn't even the fact

1750
01:35:53,720 --> 01:35:55,800
Speaker 5: that she won Miss America was not It was like

1751
01:35:55,880 --> 01:35:59,080
Speaker 5: one page picture on the front page of the La Times.

1752
01:35:59,120 --> 01:36:01,519
Speaker 5: But in New York because she was from New York.

1753
01:36:01,920 --> 01:36:04,439
Speaker 5: She was missed New York. It was huge, and so

1754
01:36:04,520 --> 01:36:06,640
Speaker 5: all these people were waiting and they didn't even know

1755
01:36:06,720 --> 01:36:09,479
Speaker 5: where she was. She was at home, but they were

1756
01:36:09,520 --> 01:36:12,080
Speaker 5: just waiting to get a glimpse and everything. And so

1757
01:36:12,200 --> 01:36:15,679
Speaker 5: when I went in there, I met the parents and

1758
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:19,280
Speaker 5: I met Vanessa probably at around eight o'clock in the morning,

1759
01:36:20,000 --> 01:36:23,479
Speaker 5: and mostly you know, then the lawyers showed up, and

1760
01:36:23,880 --> 01:36:27,439
Speaker 5: at that time everybody wanted to uh said that they

1761
01:36:27,479 --> 01:36:29,880
Speaker 5: were going to fight and they weren't going to let

1762
01:36:29,880 --> 01:36:34,200
Speaker 5: her resign, that they were gonna But my feeling was

1763
01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:38,599
Speaker 5: based on the fact that there was only six weeks

1764
01:36:38,680 --> 01:36:42,479
Speaker 5: left before the national cast, and I felt in my

1765
01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:49,120
Speaker 5: heart that the pageant was not going to support. Yeah,

1766
01:36:49,120 --> 01:36:51,760
Speaker 5: they weren't going to let her, you know, be on

1767
01:36:51,840 --> 01:36:54,639
Speaker 5: that show for one And I didn't think that there

1768
01:36:54,680 --> 01:36:57,599
Speaker 5: could be an injunction. You know, whether they could get

1769
01:36:57,600 --> 01:36:59,639
Speaker 5: an injunction or not, they're not going to let her

1770
01:37:00,760 --> 01:37:04,760
Speaker 5: perform any of her services that she was supposed to

1771
01:37:04,920 --> 01:37:08,599
Speaker 5: deliver as Miss America. So why fight for what are

1772
01:37:08,600 --> 01:37:11,160
Speaker 5: you fighting for? You have nothing. The only thing left

1773
01:37:11,160 --> 01:37:12,479
Speaker 5: for you to do is to be on that show

1774
01:37:12,479 --> 01:37:14,680
Speaker 5: and give the other girl the new crown, you know,

1775
01:37:14,720 --> 01:37:16,960
Speaker 5: And is that really worth it? Just go on with

1776
01:37:17,000 --> 01:37:19,040
Speaker 5: your life. But I wasn't in charge, you know. I

1777
01:37:19,080 --> 01:37:23,000
Speaker 5: mean that they had lawyers, the parents had input. So

1778
01:37:23,080 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 5: I was I said, Hey, whatever you guys want to do,

1779
01:37:25,560 --> 01:37:29,759
Speaker 5: I'm going to frame this statement to represent Vanessa's voice,

1780
01:37:30,080 --> 01:37:32,000
Speaker 5: you know. And so I worked with Vnessa over the

1781
01:37:32,000 --> 01:37:35,000
Speaker 5: course of that, within that seventy two hours, and we

1782
01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:37,720
Speaker 5: bantered about with the lawyers, and at one time they

1783
01:37:37,720 --> 01:37:39,439
Speaker 5: were saying, well, she can't say this and she can't

1784
01:37:39,479 --> 01:37:41,639
Speaker 5: say that. And say, well, look, guys, if she can't

1785
01:37:41,840 --> 01:37:45,120
Speaker 5: say anything, then let's just cancel the press conference. You

1786
01:37:45,160 --> 01:37:47,800
Speaker 5: guys can do your lawyer shit and just make a

1787
01:37:47,880 --> 01:37:51,200
Speaker 5: lawyer legalese announcement and just it'll make it like a

1788
01:37:51,280 --> 01:37:54,680
Speaker 5: law release instead of a press release. And I'll be

1789
01:37:54,680 --> 01:37:56,680
Speaker 5: happy to service that for you guys. And then then

1790
01:37:56,720 --> 01:37:59,000
Speaker 5: we changed and we were back and forth, and then

1791
01:37:59,080 --> 01:38:02,719
Speaker 5: ultimately in the book, I explained what everything need to happen.

1792
01:38:02,840 --> 01:38:06,439
Speaker 5: But she did end up. You know, the world knows

1793
01:38:06,479 --> 01:38:10,040
Speaker 5: that she did end up resigning, but she had the

1794
01:38:10,080 --> 01:38:12,280
Speaker 5: option not to. That's the thing that I think a

1795
01:38:12,280 --> 01:38:14,720
Speaker 5: lot of people don't realize. They didn't force her out,

1796
01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:16,840
Speaker 5: but she decided to do and I think she did

1797
01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:17,400
Speaker 5: the right thing.

1798
01:38:18,960 --> 01:38:22,960
Speaker 2: Two questions, two minuted questions. One only because I went

1799
01:38:23,000 --> 01:38:26,280
Speaker 2: to school with her. Did she ever have a conversation

1800
01:38:26,320 --> 01:38:33,360
Speaker 2: with Susette? So Susette Charles and it was this Jersey

1801
01:38:33,360 --> 01:38:36,880
Speaker 2: but she's really Philly And I went to school like

1802
01:38:37,360 --> 01:38:40,160
Speaker 2: she was my sister's best friend.

1803
01:38:40,200 --> 01:38:43,760
Speaker 1: So we all you really know, Oh, I definitely. I mean,

1804
01:38:43,760 --> 01:38:44,120
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.

1805
01:38:44,160 --> 01:38:46,080
Speaker 2: I was cheering for Suzette the whole time, but you know,

1806
01:38:48,280 --> 01:38:52,200
Speaker 2: but that's cool cheering for anybody's.

1807
01:38:51,360 --> 01:38:53,920
Speaker 1: African American as well. She's black. She's a black woman

1808
01:38:53,960 --> 01:38:54,280
Speaker 1: as well.

1809
01:38:54,360 --> 01:38:58,360
Speaker 2: So was there Did they ever have a conversation about

1810
01:38:58,400 --> 01:39:00,479
Speaker 2: this during this time period or now?

1811
01:39:00,720 --> 01:39:01,880
Speaker 1: Both camps were separate.

1812
01:39:02,439 --> 01:39:04,479
Speaker 5: They were both separate. And if I would have been

1813
01:39:04,560 --> 01:39:07,240
Speaker 5: Suzanne's manager, I would have told her don't accept it.

1814
01:39:08,000 --> 01:39:12,040
Speaker 2: I always now hindsight, we would have been more famous,

1815
01:39:12,400 --> 01:39:13,719
Speaker 2: she would have been more famous.

1816
01:39:15,040 --> 01:39:18,000
Speaker 5: Accepted it because it's like one black woman, like you're

1817
01:39:18,000 --> 01:39:19,920
Speaker 5: gonna do this to a black woman? And then I'm

1818
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:22,360
Speaker 5: going to side in there. And she never I mean,

1819
01:39:22,439 --> 01:39:24,320
Speaker 5: she was only Missed America for six weeks.

1820
01:39:24,360 --> 01:39:24,840
Speaker 1: Six weeks.

1821
01:39:24,880 --> 01:39:29,640
Speaker 5: Why would you accept that like peons like pennies? And

1822
01:39:29,680 --> 01:39:31,840
Speaker 5: she never got to do after that. I mean, you know,

1823
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:34,080
Speaker 5: she's not one of the most you know, I mean

1824
01:39:35,320 --> 01:39:38,400
Speaker 5: Miss Americas are not recognized, but Susie Charles is probably

1825
01:39:38,400 --> 01:39:40,840
Speaker 5: the one of the least recognized. Because she accepted that.

1826
01:39:40,960 --> 01:39:42,840
Speaker 3: Well, everybody ain't have a ramone, so.

1827
01:39:44,160 --> 01:39:47,320
Speaker 5: I said, no, don't be more famous. So she would

1828
01:39:47,320 --> 01:39:49,360
Speaker 5: have been all over the news. She could have her

1829
01:39:49,360 --> 01:39:51,880
Speaker 5: own press conference to say why she didn't accept it?

1830
01:39:57,640 --> 01:40:02,400
Speaker 2: What were your feelings when I I guess, I guess

1831
01:40:02,439 --> 01:40:06,599
Speaker 2: thirty seven years later, they tried to pull a mea

1832
01:40:06,680 --> 01:40:12,680
Speaker 2: kopa and say, Okay, we were wrong and that was

1833
01:40:12,720 --> 01:40:16,120
Speaker 2: tone deaf of us, and we want to reinstate you

1834
01:40:16,200 --> 01:40:20,040
Speaker 2: back as Miss America. And I assume she declined it.

1835
01:40:20,160 --> 01:40:26,679
Speaker 2: But we're even aware that maybe seven eight years ago

1836
01:40:27,160 --> 01:40:31,679
Speaker 2: that that organization actually yeah, yeah, I wanted to write

1837
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:32,400
Speaker 2: them wrong about it.

1838
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:36,400
Speaker 5: She called me, she asked me what I thought she.

1839
01:40:36,320 --> 01:40:40,720
Speaker 1: Should do, and you told her still no, I.

1840
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:43,960
Speaker 5: Said, no, why would you go back to them? Yeah?

1841
01:40:44,880 --> 01:40:47,400
Speaker 5: But you know she she did. I mean I was

1842
01:40:47,520 --> 01:40:49,080
Speaker 5: I think that she did it for her parents for

1843
01:40:49,160 --> 01:40:55,479
Speaker 5: a mom d doing it. She ended up supporting them.

1844
01:40:55,520 --> 01:40:58,040
Speaker 5: She didn't actually do what they wanted, but they did

1845
01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:01,760
Speaker 5: reach it. Uh uh. You know she's she's held in

1846
01:41:01,800 --> 01:41:04,519
Speaker 5: a different light now than she was. And I'd say,

1847
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:06,760
Speaker 5: it's up to you. I wouldn't do it ifire you,

1848
01:41:06,840 --> 01:41:09,599
Speaker 5: but you know, it's your life. And if that's if

1849
01:41:09,640 --> 01:41:11,240
Speaker 5: you guys want to if you want to have peace

1850
01:41:11,680 --> 01:41:14,120
Speaker 5: and you get some benefit out of it, then do it.

1851
01:41:15,200 --> 01:41:17,880
Speaker 3: Miss America of All Times, isn't you mean former Miss

1852
01:41:17,880 --> 01:41:18,639
Speaker 3: America of All Time?

1853
01:41:18,920 --> 01:41:19,160
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1854
01:41:19,240 --> 01:41:21,880
Speaker 5: Wait, but it took a long time, you know, it

1855
01:41:21,920 --> 01:41:24,160
Speaker 5: took a long time for all that stuff to really

1856
01:41:25,400 --> 01:41:27,120
Speaker 5: put it behind her. A lot of people say any

1857
01:41:27,120 --> 01:41:29,320
Speaker 5: publicity is good publicity, and I don't want from that

1858
01:41:29,360 --> 01:41:33,120
Speaker 5: school of thought. It took over a decade before she

1859
01:41:33,520 --> 01:41:39,240
Speaker 5: could actually be listed by her name only, meaning for

1860
01:41:39,320 --> 01:41:43,000
Speaker 5: ten years, every time she was in the paper, there

1861
01:41:43,080 --> 01:41:47,599
Speaker 5: was some reference to farm former New New Pictures missing.

1862
01:41:47,840 --> 01:41:49,720
Speaker 5: It was like a tag and it's like, you know,

1863
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:52,080
Speaker 5: having a monkey on your back only was in writing.

1864
01:41:52,120 --> 01:41:54,639
Speaker 5: It was like a little literally like a brand tag,

1865
01:41:55,400 --> 01:41:58,800
Speaker 5: you know, new Miss America forced to resign because of

1866
01:41:58,920 --> 01:42:03,599
Speaker 5: new pictures I'm wordying. It was always every time, you know,

1867
01:42:03,680 --> 01:42:05,360
Speaker 5: and I said, if we could, you know, for me,

1868
01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:08,040
Speaker 5: my biggest goal was if I could just have one

1869
01:42:08,120 --> 01:42:12,599
Speaker 5: person say, just use her name without any reference to

1870
01:42:12,680 --> 01:42:16,160
Speaker 5: the past. And it finally happened. A journalist by the

1871
01:42:16,240 --> 01:42:20,280
Speaker 5: name of David Rich who's a well known Broadway critic,

1872
01:42:20,720 --> 01:42:24,639
Speaker 5: when she was in Kissed as Spider Woman for her review.

1873
01:42:25,320 --> 01:42:29,839
Speaker 5: He was the first one really that didn't use the reference.

1874
01:42:29,960 --> 01:42:34,280
Speaker 5: And fucking aim Man, we finally won. We got your

1875
01:42:34,400 --> 01:42:35,240
Speaker 5: name back.

1876
01:42:35,920 --> 01:42:42,400
Speaker 2: You know, watching the initial launch of you Know Her

1877
01:42:42,400 --> 01:42:46,200
Speaker 2: eighty seven, the Right of the album and the comfort

1878
01:42:46,280 --> 01:42:51,599
Speaker 2: Zone album, and how that, how you just really managed

1879
01:42:51,640 --> 01:42:56,080
Speaker 2: to do the impossible, which is like anyone associated with

1880
01:42:56,160 --> 01:42:58,599
Speaker 2: Miss America, it's almost like that would have been a

1881
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:05,720
Speaker 2: sure shot way to almost like career suicide. But somehow

1882
01:43:06,240 --> 01:43:11,720
Speaker 2: you managed to make her into a household word and

1883
01:43:12,240 --> 01:43:16,280
Speaker 2: an international star. So could you just describe what the

1884
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:18,440
Speaker 2: well basic strategy.

1885
01:43:18,960 --> 01:43:21,400
Speaker 5: I continued to be a publicist for a while.

1886
01:43:21,520 --> 01:43:23,879
Speaker 1: And I even just a publicist, never a manager.

1887
01:43:24,080 --> 01:43:26,479
Speaker 5: No, no, I was a manager a much longer time than

1888
01:43:26,520 --> 01:43:28,719
Speaker 5: I was a publicist. I was a publicist for less

1889
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:31,400
Speaker 5: than six months probably or maybe less than a year,

1890
01:43:32,160 --> 01:43:35,960
Speaker 5: but I was a manager for over ten years. But

1891
01:43:36,040 --> 01:43:39,639
Speaker 5: what ended up happening was I didn't want to manage

1892
01:43:39,680 --> 01:43:45,320
Speaker 5: her because I had worked with so many other people

1893
01:43:45,439 --> 01:43:50,080
Speaker 5: who were either their mother or their husband, or different

1894
01:43:50,120 --> 01:43:52,599
Speaker 5: people in the business who were managed by their mother

1895
01:43:52,760 --> 01:43:55,200
Speaker 5: or their husbands or whatever. And I said, I never

1896
01:43:55,320 --> 01:43:56,800
Speaker 5: I don't want to be that. I don't want to

1897
01:43:56,800 --> 01:44:00,679
Speaker 5: be an appendage to the NASA as a manager. And

1898
01:44:02,000 --> 01:44:04,280
Speaker 5: I told her that, and I said, but I'll find

1899
01:44:04,280 --> 01:44:06,479
Speaker 5: you a good manager. I'll help you, you know. And

1900
01:44:06,560 --> 01:44:10,680
Speaker 5: I tried to find her a good manager, and everybody said,

1901
01:44:10,800 --> 01:44:14,800
Speaker 5: you know, no, And so finally she did have a

1902
01:44:14,800 --> 01:44:17,479
Speaker 5: woman by the name of Dolores Robinson, was a pretty

1903
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:22,240
Speaker 5: well respected manager in the business, and they didn't work out.

1904
01:44:22,520 --> 01:44:28,040
Speaker 5: And then one day she just said, well, you know,

1905
01:44:28,040 --> 01:44:30,240
Speaker 5: why don't you just manage me? I come to you

1906
01:44:30,320 --> 01:44:32,960
Speaker 5: for everything anyways, I'm not going to do anything without

1907
01:44:32,960 --> 01:44:35,360
Speaker 5: getting you advice, So why don't you just do it?

1908
01:44:36,200 --> 01:44:39,680
Speaker 5: And I finally, you know, I mean, you don't want

1909
01:44:39,760 --> 01:44:42,840
Speaker 5: to make decisions out of emotional decisions, But I really

1910
01:44:43,360 --> 01:44:45,599
Speaker 5: did it out of love for her, because I wanted

1911
01:44:45,640 --> 01:44:47,839
Speaker 5: to see her, you know, I wanted her to be happy,

1912
01:44:48,479 --> 01:44:51,599
Speaker 5: and so I finally committed to it and I said, look,

1913
01:44:51,640 --> 01:44:54,160
Speaker 5: I want to do it, but the vision is I

1914
01:44:54,160 --> 01:44:57,280
Speaker 5: don't think I can make you a star in Broadway

1915
01:44:57,320 --> 01:44:59,280
Speaker 5: and motion pictures are TV because there's not a lot

1916
01:44:59,320 --> 01:45:02,000
Speaker 5: of parts for black for me. And what we have

1917
01:45:02,080 --> 01:45:04,280
Speaker 5: to do is come up with an identity that people

1918
01:45:04,360 --> 01:45:06,960
Speaker 5: that you can own. And I think the best way

1919
01:45:06,960 --> 01:45:09,000
Speaker 5: to do that is in the music industry because we

1920
01:45:09,040 --> 01:45:11,840
Speaker 5: can brand you. I can't brand you waiting for the

1921
01:45:11,920 --> 01:45:15,000
Speaker 5: right role to come up, you know, and people know

1922
01:45:15,040 --> 01:45:18,200
Speaker 5: that you can sing you one. So what we have

1923
01:45:18,240 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 5: to do is create an identity that is not miss

1924
01:45:21,040 --> 01:45:24,080
Speaker 5: America because you're not really You don't really represent miss

1925
01:45:24,080 --> 01:45:27,479
Speaker 5: America and you don't really represent the pictures. So they

1926
01:45:27,479 --> 01:45:31,200
Speaker 5: were diametrically opposed. So if we can find music and

1927
01:45:31,240 --> 01:45:33,840
Speaker 5: you give me an opportunity to do that, then then

1928
01:45:33,920 --> 01:45:36,360
Speaker 5: I think we can create. And if we fail, then

1929
01:45:36,360 --> 01:45:38,280
Speaker 5: we'll try Plan B. But let's try to go to

1930
01:45:38,320 --> 01:45:41,800
Speaker 5: the music route and try to brand you and create

1931
01:45:41,840 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 5: an identity that you can own, and then we can

1932
01:45:44,080 --> 01:45:49,040
Speaker 5: build and then hopefully that'll be a caveat a pathway

1933
01:45:49,080 --> 01:45:51,760
Speaker 5: for you to do film, television, Broadway and all the

1934
01:45:51,760 --> 01:45:54,800
Speaker 5: other stuff. But then what I really didn't realize was that,

1935
01:45:55,320 --> 01:45:58,559
Speaker 5: you know, the stigma of what everything that had happened.

1936
01:45:58,600 --> 01:46:02,639
Speaker 5: I mean, everyone turned me down, you know, Bob kraz now,

1937
01:46:04,160 --> 01:46:08,080
Speaker 5: Gerald Busby, you know, I got turned down by like

1938
01:46:08,120 --> 01:46:11,479
Speaker 5: eight labels. Clive Calder, you know, I remember he told me,

1939
01:46:11,479 --> 01:46:13,160
Speaker 5: he said, well, I kind of see Vanessa's you know,

1940
01:46:13,200 --> 01:46:15,840
Speaker 5: this is kind of like a page three like in

1941
01:46:15,880 --> 01:46:19,240
Speaker 5: the Sun in the UK, Like that's how what people

1942
01:46:19,320 --> 01:46:21,439
Speaker 5: kind of think of her might be. Like maybe she

1943
01:46:21,439 --> 01:46:23,400
Speaker 5: could be a celebrity, but I don't think anybody will

1944
01:46:23,439 --> 01:46:25,800
Speaker 5: ever take her serious as an artist. And he told

1945
01:46:25,800 --> 01:46:30,439
Speaker 5: me that, you know, this is in his office, me

1946
01:46:30,479 --> 01:46:32,920
Speaker 5: and Vanessa. He said this in front of Vanessa too,

1947
01:46:33,600 --> 01:46:36,719
Speaker 5: And you know, so I was getting turned down left

1948
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:39,519
Speaker 5: and right, you know, but Clive was actually he sent

1949
01:46:39,560 --> 01:46:42,600
Speaker 5: me a really nice note and he said, everything you

1950
01:46:42,680 --> 01:46:44,280
Speaker 5: told me you were going to do in that meeting,

1951
01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:48,680
Speaker 5: you did. And I blew it. And I was so

1952
01:46:48,800 --> 01:46:51,759
Speaker 5: happy that he owned up to that, you know, because

1953
01:46:51,800 --> 01:46:54,120
Speaker 5: I told him I said, no, I don't want a demo, dao,

1954
01:46:54,160 --> 01:46:56,400
Speaker 5: I want a real deal. She can will make her

1955
01:46:56,439 --> 01:46:58,760
Speaker 5: a legitimate artist. And the guy who really came to

1956
01:46:58,800 --> 01:47:02,599
Speaker 5: the table was at X time and Ed was calling

1957
01:47:02,800 --> 01:47:04,600
Speaker 5: called me. At that time, he had just gotten a

1958
01:47:04,680 --> 01:47:08,160
Speaker 5: deal with Wing Records to be you know, to start

1959
01:47:08,160 --> 01:47:11,200
Speaker 5: Wing Records, and he had one group signed at the time,

1960
01:47:11,280 --> 01:47:15,840
Speaker 5: Tony Tony Tony, and so he was just telling me

1961
01:47:16,080 --> 01:47:17,800
Speaker 5: we were friends, and he said, man, I got this

1962
01:47:17,880 --> 01:47:20,719
Speaker 5: new label, so if you got anybody, you know, please

1963
01:47:20,840 --> 01:47:23,120
Speaker 5: run and buy me. And he knew that, you know,

1964
01:47:23,439 --> 01:47:26,240
Speaker 5: at this point Vanessa and I had a relationship. People

1965
01:47:26,280 --> 01:47:28,840
Speaker 5: knew about it and everything, so you know, at the

1966
01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:30,880
Speaker 5: end of our conversation, I said, oh, I don't have

1967
01:47:30,880 --> 01:47:33,800
Speaker 5: anybody right now. But he said, well, what are you

1968
01:47:33,840 --> 01:47:36,800
Speaker 5: doing with Vanessa? And I said, well, I'm trying to

1969
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:39,240
Speaker 5: get a damn record deal, but everyone wants to do

1970
01:47:39,280 --> 01:47:41,080
Speaker 5: a demo and I don't want to get you know,

1971
01:47:41,160 --> 01:47:44,000
Speaker 5: demo deals are like purgatory. You know, you get a

1972
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:45,880
Speaker 5: demo deal and then all of a sudden they reject you.

1973
01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:47,680
Speaker 5: Then nobody wants to touch you. And I said, I

1974
01:47:47,720 --> 01:47:50,360
Speaker 5: don't want to go that route. So he just said, well,

1975
01:47:50,400 --> 01:47:52,479
Speaker 5: you know, why don't you come here. Let's do it,

1976
01:47:53,240 --> 01:47:56,280
Speaker 5: And I said, really, am you serious, And he said, yeah,

1977
01:47:56,280 --> 01:47:57,840
Speaker 5: I don't have any money. I don't have any kind

1978
01:47:57,880 --> 01:47:59,519
Speaker 5: of real money, but you know, I can give you

1979
01:47:59,560 --> 01:48:03,120
Speaker 5: some money. So we barded a little bit. There wasn't

1980
01:48:03,120 --> 01:48:05,240
Speaker 5: a lot of room. I negotiate a little bit more,

1981
01:48:05,240 --> 01:48:07,880
Speaker 5: and that's where we started. And so it was the

1982
01:48:07,960 --> 01:48:11,479
Speaker 5: three of us, and you know, that was the beginning

1983
01:48:11,840 --> 01:48:15,679
Speaker 5: of her musical career and then the rest is you know, history.

1984
01:48:15,720 --> 01:48:17,880
Speaker 5: And you know, I think I did have a big

1985
01:48:17,960 --> 01:48:21,559
Speaker 5: role in that first decade of her career and everything

1986
01:48:21,600 --> 01:48:24,920
Speaker 5: that we The one thing I was disappointed about was

1987
01:48:24,960 --> 01:48:27,639
Speaker 5: we didn't get a chance to do a major tour,

1988
01:48:28,280 --> 01:48:30,800
Speaker 5: and I thought that that was something that I would

1989
01:48:30,800 --> 01:48:35,000
Speaker 5: have loved for her to dedicate and stay more entrenchs

1990
01:48:35,040 --> 01:48:38,439
Speaker 5: in the music industry, to really launch a major tour

1991
01:48:38,560 --> 01:48:41,240
Speaker 5: while I was still at her helm. And then our

1992
01:48:41,280 --> 01:48:44,800
Speaker 5: relationship started. You know, by this time, we had three kids,

1993
01:48:45,200 --> 01:48:48,360
Speaker 5: and you know, I don't regret any of the time

1994
01:48:48,400 --> 01:48:51,599
Speaker 5: that we spent together. We were very successful in our run,

1995
01:48:51,680 --> 01:48:53,639
Speaker 5: and she's gone on to do really great things.

1996
01:48:54,640 --> 01:48:58,200
Speaker 2: I have to ask, have you guys ever forgiven La

1997
01:48:58,280 --> 01:49:02,920
Speaker 2: and Babyface for giving girls away the pebbles instead of Yeah.

1998
01:49:02,800 --> 01:49:05,840
Speaker 5: That was a total that was a total money deal.

1999
01:49:06,040 --> 01:49:10,680
Speaker 5: Like Ed and Vanessa. Man, they hated them. Yeah, I

2000
01:49:10,720 --> 01:49:13,200
Speaker 5: think you read in the book where we ran into

2001
01:49:13,280 --> 01:49:16,880
Speaker 5: I ran into La and Babyface the warm Clock. That

2002
01:49:17,040 --> 01:49:20,479
Speaker 5: was so fucking funny. Man, I was cracking up. I

2003
01:49:20,520 --> 01:49:22,680
Speaker 5: never thought I didn't have the hate for them. I

2004
01:49:22,760 --> 01:49:27,480
Speaker 5: just didn't like the the business business ethics that they exercise.

2005
01:49:27,760 --> 01:49:29,720
Speaker 5: And all they had to do was call it was

2006
01:49:29,760 --> 01:49:32,840
Speaker 5: a money It was a money deal, you know. And

2007
01:49:33,000 --> 01:49:35,000
Speaker 5: also we didn't have But what a lot of people

2008
01:49:35,000 --> 01:49:38,360
Speaker 5: don't realize is we didn't have a contract with them.

2009
01:49:38,720 --> 01:49:40,840
Speaker 5: We were doing a ED one. You know, we were

2010
01:49:41,040 --> 01:49:44,439
Speaker 5: doing a spec deal with them because they brought We

2011
01:49:44,479 --> 01:49:47,439
Speaker 5: wanted them to write original material and write and produce

2012
01:49:47,520 --> 01:49:50,840
Speaker 5: rigial material for Vanessa on her debut album. And they

2013
01:49:50,880 --> 01:49:54,880
Speaker 5: came with four songs and we didn't really like most

2014
01:49:54,960 --> 01:49:57,160
Speaker 5: of you know, the three of the songs we didn't

2015
01:49:57,160 --> 01:50:01,840
Speaker 5: feel right. But girlfriend one that we thought was interesting

2016
01:50:02,880 --> 01:50:05,240
Speaker 5: wasn't really the direction we're thinking. But we said, let's

2017
01:50:05,280 --> 01:50:08,840
Speaker 5: do this song, you know, switch and let Levan has

2018
01:50:08,960 --> 01:50:11,479
Speaker 5: put her lead vocals on it, and we'll do it

2019
01:50:11,520 --> 01:50:13,720
Speaker 5: as a spec and if everything goes well, then we'll

2020
01:50:13,760 --> 01:50:15,519
Speaker 5: commit three songs for the album.

2021
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:17,800
Speaker 2: So there's a version of Girlfriend with her voice on

2022
01:50:17,840 --> 01:50:18,800
Speaker 2: it somewhere in this world.

2023
01:50:18,920 --> 01:50:23,880
Speaker 5: That's what Pebbles heard. Pebbles came to the party.

2024
01:50:24,120 --> 01:50:25,880
Speaker 3: She does have the stronger voice than the.

2025
01:50:26,160 --> 01:50:31,040
Speaker 5: Oakwood Boy the Oakwood Apartments. It was where La and

2026
01:50:31,240 --> 01:50:35,960
Speaker 5: Face came to Andy. They were just trying to you know,

2027
01:50:36,000 --> 01:50:38,320
Speaker 5: they had just left the group the deal, and they

2028
01:50:38,320 --> 01:50:40,719
Speaker 5: were trying to you know, they had the Whisper song

2029
01:50:41,640 --> 01:50:44,920
Speaker 5: that was a big hit, yeah, rock Sydetti, and so

2030
01:50:44,960 --> 01:50:48,800
Speaker 5: they were just starting off and they were cametinue to

2031
01:50:48,920 --> 01:50:52,639
Speaker 5: La to you know, mind some business and make money,

2032
01:50:53,080 --> 01:50:55,080
Speaker 5: you know, try to get some deal with some songwriting

2033
01:50:55,120 --> 01:50:58,080
Speaker 5: production deals. And so what happened was they were at

2034
01:50:58,120 --> 01:51:04,439
Speaker 5: that place and Pebbles was also starting her first record

2035
01:51:04,520 --> 01:51:08,280
Speaker 5: with NCA, and she came in and heard I think

2036
01:51:08,360 --> 01:51:13,000
Speaker 5: Vanessa was actually at the place when Pebbles came in

2037
01:51:13,360 --> 01:51:17,000
Speaker 5: and she heard her voice a slave of her voice

2038
01:51:17,040 --> 01:51:21,480
Speaker 5: on that track on Girlfriend. And then when Vanessa left,

2039
01:51:21,880 --> 01:51:26,040
Speaker 5: she said to La, I want that song. And then

2040
01:51:26,479 --> 01:51:33,280
Speaker 5: Husby got involved and her husband had money, right, and yeah,

2041
01:51:33,320 --> 01:51:35,439
Speaker 5: so they it was a money It was a money

2042
01:51:35,439 --> 01:51:38,679
Speaker 5: switch because we didn't have a deal we were in

2043
01:51:38,720 --> 01:51:41,599
Speaker 5: spec and so when they got the money, they just

2044
01:51:41,640 --> 01:51:44,559
Speaker 5: didn't have the guys to tell us that they were

2045
01:51:44,600 --> 01:51:47,479
Speaker 5: going to go. And also, in all fairness to them,

2046
01:51:47,640 --> 01:51:51,719
Speaker 5: Vanessa was pregnant. We were going to have to delay

2047
01:51:51,760 --> 01:51:54,439
Speaker 5: the record, so they were not going to make the money.

2048
01:51:54,880 --> 01:51:59,439
Speaker 5: And Kenny also thought that it was a more of

2049
01:51:59,479 --> 01:52:03,000
Speaker 5: an herb been tracked that it wasn't that Devil's had

2050
01:52:03,040 --> 01:52:08,240
Speaker 5: a better voice. She had a more urban voice than Vanessa.

2051
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, baby said that she was girlfriend. Yeah, yeah, girlfriend.

2052
01:52:12,560 --> 01:52:14,160
Speaker 3: I could hear a girlfriend. I could hear it.

2053
01:52:14,280 --> 01:52:18,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, that was Kenny. That was Kenny who said he

2054
01:52:18,439 --> 01:52:20,320
Speaker 5: said that, but he let La kind of take the

2055
01:52:20,320 --> 01:52:23,640
Speaker 5: blame for it. But uh no, you know, so you know,

2056
01:52:23,720 --> 01:52:26,000
Speaker 5: I told him when I saw them at the Forum Club. Look,

2057
01:52:26,000 --> 01:52:27,360
Speaker 5: I don't hate you guys, but you guys should have

2058
01:52:27,400 --> 01:52:29,879
Speaker 5: called man, that's the only thing. Just had a courtesy

2059
01:52:30,240 --> 01:52:32,040
Speaker 5: Just call and say hey, you know, I understood that

2060
01:52:32,080 --> 01:52:35,200
Speaker 5: you guys did it for money and her point in

2061
01:52:35,240 --> 01:52:37,360
Speaker 5: your career, that made sense, you know, but you should

2062
01:52:37,360 --> 01:52:38,639
Speaker 5: All you had to do was call us.

2063
01:52:38,840 --> 01:52:42,080
Speaker 2: So Okay, I'm I'm gonna close here because I can

2064
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:47,080
Speaker 2: nerd out for twelve hours. I do want to know though,

2065
01:52:47,280 --> 01:52:52,200
Speaker 2: at least for when your daughter, and of course your

2066
01:52:52,280 --> 01:52:56,679
Speaker 2: daughter's uh, Jillian, she's lying, babe, Well, she's expressing interest

2067
01:52:56,760 --> 01:53:01,639
Speaker 2: in getting in the biz and knowing what you know,

2068
01:53:01,640 --> 01:53:04,800
Speaker 2: knowing who you dealt with, all these casting characters that

2069
01:53:04,840 --> 01:53:08,120
Speaker 2: you meet, and there's a lot of heartbreak here, you know,

2070
01:53:08,400 --> 01:53:14,200
Speaker 2: in the clients that you're working with, Like what advice

2071
01:53:14,240 --> 01:53:18,280
Speaker 2: are you? Are you being encouraging, like ah, I wish

2072
01:53:18,320 --> 01:53:20,679
Speaker 2: you would try something else, or da da da da da,

2073
01:53:20,800 --> 01:53:25,960
Speaker 2: or like or were you the encouraging dad? That's like,

2074
01:53:26,040 --> 01:53:28,320
Speaker 2: go ahead, follow your dream, this is what you want

2075
01:53:28,320 --> 01:53:28,519
Speaker 2: to do.

2076
01:53:29,640 --> 01:53:34,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I know. I never gave her any discouraging news

2077
01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:39,559
Speaker 5: or suggestions about I didn't throw my history on her

2078
01:53:40,120 --> 01:53:43,519
Speaker 5: in that respect, Okay, and give her, you know, the

2079
01:53:43,960 --> 01:53:46,160
Speaker 5: dark side of our business with the gas. You know,

2080
01:53:46,560 --> 01:53:49,240
Speaker 5: there's a lot of darkness in our business. But I

2081
01:53:49,280 --> 01:53:53,519
Speaker 5: did try to. She was like hands off. First of all,

2082
01:53:53,760 --> 01:53:55,760
Speaker 5: she goes, Dad, it's not ready for your ears yet.

2083
01:53:56,520 --> 01:54:00,280
Speaker 5: She was guarded with the Yeah, she was very guard

2084
01:54:00,479 --> 01:54:02,920
Speaker 5: And she told me she was working on one song

2085
01:54:03,560 --> 01:54:05,639
Speaker 5: and she would play it for me when it was ready.

2086
01:54:06,280 --> 01:54:08,479
Speaker 5: And I said, well, you know, you know I listened

2087
01:54:08,520 --> 01:54:11,040
Speaker 5: to all kinds of songs. I listened to Medley's you know,

2088
01:54:11,200 --> 01:54:13,880
Speaker 5: just piano or guitar, you know, just let me hear it,

2089
01:54:13,920 --> 01:54:15,800
Speaker 5: you know, I'd just like to hear what your direction is.

2090
01:54:15,840 --> 01:54:18,080
Speaker 5: And she goes, no, Dad, I'm not ready to play

2091
01:54:18,160 --> 01:54:22,519
Speaker 5: for you yet. I said, okay. So she did end

2092
01:54:22,600 --> 01:54:26,160
Speaker 5: up coming to me with treat me like Fire, And

2093
01:54:26,560 --> 01:54:28,720
Speaker 5: finally when there was a rough demo of it that

2094
01:54:28,760 --> 01:54:31,439
Speaker 5: she was happy with at least to let me listen to.

2095
01:54:31,840 --> 01:54:35,600
Speaker 5: I made some suggestions on it, but she and Lucas

2096
01:54:35,640 --> 01:54:39,200
Speaker 5: pretty much formulated all their own image and and everything.

2097
01:54:39,240 --> 01:54:42,000
Speaker 5: I didn't have any input or anything. I just kind

2098
01:54:42,000 --> 01:54:44,160
Speaker 5: of let them do what they wanted to do. And

2099
01:54:44,400 --> 01:54:46,280
Speaker 5: I remember seeing the video when she had all that hair.

2100
01:54:46,320 --> 01:54:48,880
Speaker 5: I'd never seen so much hair. She always had wild hair,

2101
01:54:48,920 --> 01:54:51,080
Speaker 5: but this was like, you know, this was like hair

2102
01:54:51,120 --> 01:54:52,000
Speaker 5: on steroids.

2103
01:54:52,240 --> 01:54:54,480
Speaker 1: Right, Yes, that's how first matter. I was like, wait,

2104
01:54:54,520 --> 01:54:57,040
Speaker 1: who's this person? She like, okay, how did you get

2105
01:54:57,080 --> 01:54:57,760
Speaker 1: all that hair?

2106
01:54:58,080 --> 01:55:03,240
Speaker 5: That's so But you know what ended up happening was

2107
01:55:04,520 --> 01:55:07,920
Speaker 5: because I was her father, everyone thought I managed her.

2108
01:55:08,440 --> 01:55:10,560
Speaker 5: And so when that single, when they put the single

2109
01:55:10,600 --> 01:55:12,880
Speaker 5: out on SoundCloud, I mean it was just like an

2110
01:55:12,880 --> 01:55:16,440
Speaker 5: immediate response, like a pess or a response, and everybody

2111
01:55:16,440 --> 01:55:18,280
Speaker 5: fell in love with the track. And so I was

2112
01:55:18,280 --> 01:55:22,760
Speaker 5: getting all these calls from labels and lawyers and managers

2113
01:55:22,840 --> 01:55:24,920
Speaker 5: and say, hey, mom, man, are you managing your daughter?

2114
01:55:25,600 --> 01:55:27,680
Speaker 5: What's going on? What's going on? You know? I said, no, no,

2115
01:55:27,680 --> 01:55:30,160
Speaker 5: I'm not. I'm just your dad. You know I can,

2116
01:55:30,440 --> 01:55:32,320
Speaker 5: I can pass on the information to.

2117
01:55:33,960 --> 01:55:34,880
Speaker 3: I'm just her dad.

2118
01:55:35,760 --> 01:55:39,120
Speaker 5: What ended up happening? I said, I will help you.

2119
01:55:39,400 --> 01:55:42,800
Speaker 5: I don't want to manage you, you know, forever, but

2120
01:55:42,920 --> 01:55:46,200
Speaker 5: you guys need help and I'd like to offer my

2121
01:55:46,360 --> 01:55:51,160
Speaker 5: services to get, you know, set you a sale. Because

2122
01:55:51,160 --> 01:55:54,040
Speaker 5: I never wanted to wake up and you know, because

2123
01:55:54,040 --> 01:55:56,760
Speaker 5: I had managed their mother, I said this whole idea

2124
01:55:56,960 --> 01:55:59,800
Speaker 5: of managing my daughter and waking up one day and saying,

2125
01:56:00,520 --> 01:56:02,640
Speaker 5: I love you, but you're fired. I'm not going to

2126
01:56:02,680 --> 01:56:06,360
Speaker 5: be around for that. So I just said, I'm going

2127
01:56:06,400 --> 01:56:08,160
Speaker 5: to help you, and so I did. I helped them.

2128
01:56:08,240 --> 01:56:11,120
Speaker 5: I helped them get a manager. I flew to London

2129
01:56:12,200 --> 01:56:17,680
Speaker 5: and they ended up signing to Outsiders, a small label

2130
01:56:17,720 --> 01:56:24,200
Speaker 5: that was distributed by Polydor UK and Amanda Ghost. You know,

2131
01:56:25,160 --> 01:56:27,120
Speaker 5: did you ever run her? Meet Amanda Ghost.

2132
01:56:27,640 --> 01:56:29,240
Speaker 1: I've not met Amanda Ghost now.

2133
01:56:29,320 --> 01:56:32,840
Speaker 5: Okay, So she was a successful songwriter. She was on

2134
01:56:33,080 --> 01:56:37,080
Speaker 5: she was a president of elect of Epic Records for

2135
01:56:37,080 --> 01:56:37,919
Speaker 5: about six.

2136
01:56:37,720 --> 01:56:39,120
Speaker 1: Months or so.

2137
01:56:39,160 --> 01:56:42,920
Speaker 5: She was on American Idol as a judge for a minute,

2138
01:56:43,640 --> 01:56:46,840
Speaker 5: you know. So she added some uh, you know, some

2139
01:56:46,920 --> 01:56:49,400
Speaker 5: traction in the music industry, and she fell in love

2140
01:56:49,440 --> 01:56:52,200
Speaker 5: with the group. And so I helped the negotiate that deal.

2141
01:56:52,320 --> 01:56:55,360
Speaker 5: I set them up with an attorney, and then I

2142
01:56:55,800 --> 01:56:57,880
Speaker 5: went over to London to help them since she was

2143
01:56:57,920 --> 01:56:59,560
Speaker 5: gonna be signed to they were gonna be signed to

2144
01:56:59,560 --> 01:57:02,240
Speaker 5: a London based label. I said, you guys should get

2145
01:57:02,360 --> 01:57:06,040
Speaker 5: a London based manager as well, who has you know,

2146
01:57:06,200 --> 01:57:09,400
Speaker 5: tentacles in the US market, because you've got to still

2147
01:57:09,640 --> 01:57:12,280
Speaker 5: release the record here in the US. And I wanted

2148
01:57:12,320 --> 01:57:14,760
Speaker 5: them to know that I was going to be out

2149
01:57:14,760 --> 01:57:17,880
Speaker 5: of the picture. I didn't want to manager thinking that

2150
01:57:17,960 --> 01:57:20,440
Speaker 5: I was going to be second guessing everything that they did.

2151
01:57:20,880 --> 01:57:22,840
Speaker 5: And so I met with everyone and I said, look,

2152
01:57:22,880 --> 01:57:25,400
Speaker 5: you know my role once. If they decide to go

2153
01:57:25,480 --> 01:57:28,640
Speaker 5: with you, I'm out. I'm just regular dad. You don't

2154
01:57:28,640 --> 01:57:30,280
Speaker 5: have to answer to me, you don't have to copy

2155
01:57:30,440 --> 01:57:33,560
Speaker 5: in anything. Your relationship will be with Lucas and Jillian,

2156
01:57:33,600 --> 01:57:33,880
Speaker 5: not me.

2157
01:57:34,560 --> 01:57:34,880
Speaker 1: Wow.

2158
01:57:34,960 --> 01:57:38,440
Speaker 5: And I just felt that that was my responsibility to

2159
01:57:38,520 --> 01:57:41,920
Speaker 5: give them clear sailing, you know, and to let them

2160
01:57:42,040 --> 01:57:44,040
Speaker 5: manifest their career however they saw it.

2161
01:57:44,120 --> 01:57:45,240
Speaker 1: And so that's parenting.

2162
01:57:45,680 --> 01:57:48,960
Speaker 2: That's the role that parenting. I want to thank you

2163
01:57:48,960 --> 01:57:51,920
Speaker 2: for doing this for us again.

2164
01:57:52,600 --> 01:57:54,880
Speaker 3: Oh, thank Deana too. I want to thank Diana, Thank

2165
01:57:54,920 --> 01:57:56,200
Speaker 3: you Deanna, because yes.

2166
01:57:56,240 --> 01:58:01,200
Speaker 5: Diana, she's aid, you know, she's sure god mother right, Yes.

2167
01:58:01,040 --> 01:58:04,480
Speaker 2: Sir, just to let our views not yes, I feel

2168
01:58:04,480 --> 01:58:08,400
Speaker 2: like it's imperative reading the Fame Game and Insider's playbook

2169
01:58:08,440 --> 01:58:12,320
Speaker 2: on earning your fifteen minutes. Harper Collins shout out to

2170
01:58:12,360 --> 01:58:15,000
Speaker 2: Harper Collins. But yes, I think it's required reading.

2171
01:58:15,120 --> 01:58:17,240
Speaker 3: Yes, I have notes. I have written notes inside. That's

2172
01:58:17,240 --> 01:58:17,920
Speaker 3: how good it is.

2173
01:58:18,000 --> 01:58:22,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good journey into and it makes me

2174
01:58:22,400 --> 01:58:25,240
Speaker 2: think twice about working with any artist ever again.

2175
01:58:25,360 --> 01:58:31,120
Speaker 1: So on behalf of sir Bill. I'm calling you now,

2176
01:58:31,160 --> 01:58:34,800
Speaker 1: Sir Bill. I'll take it. Royal Royal Bill.

2177
01:58:34,680 --> 01:58:41,160
Speaker 2: And mister Bay City Rollers down there, Sugar Steve Saturday, Hey,

2178
01:58:41,480 --> 01:58:42,280
Speaker 2: go man to.

2179
01:58:42,240 --> 01:58:43,040
Speaker 1: Pay for that man.

2180
01:58:44,480 --> 01:58:46,440
Speaker 5: I didn't even I mean they had I went to

2181
01:58:46,640 --> 01:58:49,760
Speaker 5: several of their big concerence back in the day when

2182
01:58:49,760 --> 01:58:53,160
Speaker 5: they performed. One was at a racetrack. I mean they

2183
01:58:53,160 --> 01:58:56,840
Speaker 5: were getting you know, run over by women were chasing him.

2184
01:58:57,280 --> 01:59:00,600
Speaker 5: But I've never seen anything like that. That's really easy, man.

2185
01:59:02,160 --> 01:59:03,280
Speaker 1: It's even a lot for me.

2186
01:59:03,800 --> 01:59:06,480
Speaker 2: Anyway, when we have a Bill and Steve and font

2187
01:59:06,520 --> 01:59:09,520
Speaker 2: Tigelo and light yea, we thank you very much.

2188
01:59:09,920 --> 01:59:12,000
Speaker 5: Thank you all, Thank you all. I really had fun.

2189
01:59:12,040 --> 01:59:14,680
Speaker 5: This was really great and I really appreciate your support.

2190
01:59:15,320 --> 01:59:17,840
Speaker 5: And yeah, thank you so so much.

2191
01:59:18,000 --> 01:59:28,280
Speaker 1: Thank you very much much. Love Supreme is a production

2192
01:59:28,480 --> 01:59:29,720
Speaker 1: of iHeart You Radio.

2193
01:59:34,000 --> 01:59:37,280
Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

2194
01:59:37,520 --> 01:59:40,560
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.