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Speaker 1: On this episode of Newtsworld. The Heritage Foundation released a

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Speaker 1: new comprehensive report this week that details the dual crisis

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Speaker 1: for boys and men in America entitled Men Without Meaning

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Speaker 1: the Harmful Effects of Expressive Individualism. Here to discuss the report,

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Speaker 1: I'm really pleased to welcome my guest, Brenda Hafero. She

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Speaker 1: is the Assistant director and Senior policy Analyst for the

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Speaker 1: Simon Center for American Studies at the Heritage Foundation. Brenda, welcome,

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Speaker 1: and thank you for joining me on Newts World.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Let's start at the beginning. What is the boy crisis?

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Speaker 2: The boy crisis is answering question, which is how and

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Speaker 2: why are boys and men in America and sometimes around

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Speaker 2: the world struggling to flourish. And it turns out that

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Speaker 2: this is mental, physical, economic, academic, and spiritual. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: the second leading cause of death for men under forty

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Speaker 2: five in the United States is suicide. The IQ of

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Speaker 2: our boys are actually dropping, and in twenty twenty, only

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Speaker 2: twenty five percent of men ages seventeen to twenty four

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Speaker 2: qualified for military service because of mental, physical, and drug

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Speaker 2: abuse or a combination of those factors. Forty one percent

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Speaker 2: of our girls are proficient in writing, which is not good,

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Speaker 2: but only twenty percent of our boys are proficient in writing,

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Speaker 2: and men now are an approximately forty percent of college

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Speaker 2: degrees at a time when the earnings for folks with

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Speaker 2: just a high school diploma is dropping. And then over

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Speaker 2: seven million men between the ages of twenty five and

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Speaker 2: fifty five have entirely checked out of the workforce. So

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Speaker 2: it's far reaching, and there are a lot of examples

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Speaker 2: of why millions of men and boys are struggling.

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Speaker 1: If there are seven million men between twenty five and

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Speaker 1: fifty five who've checked out of the workforce, what are

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Speaker 1: they doing.

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Speaker 2: They're not spending their time, for the most part, looking

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Speaker 2: after children or doing very good things. So on average,

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Speaker 2: they're spending about five and a half hours watching television

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Speaker 2: and movies, so a lot of the time is being

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Speaker 2: spent in front of screens. About half of these men

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Speaker 2: are on medication. There's a lot of drug abuse going on,

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Speaker 2: and it feels like they're just kind of listless and

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Speaker 2: don't have a lot of purpose and in their life.

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Speaker 1: How much does the rise of the gaming culture a

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Speaker 1: part of that?

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Speaker 2: I think it's certainly part of that. So video games

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Speaker 2: are part of that. Screen time and video games are

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Speaker 2: becoming more addictive as they're being developed, so a lot

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Speaker 2: of these men are indeed spending time in front of

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Speaker 2: video games.

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Speaker 1: In your report, you say that the single direct driver

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Speaker 1: of the boy crisis is the absence of fathers. What's

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Speaker 1: the evidence for them?

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Speaker 2: That's right, So there's a lot of evidence. So according

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Speaker 2: to Will Ferrell and John Gray's book The Boy Crisis,

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Speaker 2: the absence of fathers or his presence impacts school achievement,

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Speaker 2: verbal intelligence and quantitative abilities, school dropouts, employment, suicide, drugs, homelessness, bullying, victimization,

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Speaker 2: violent crime, rape, poverty and mobility, hypertension, trust, and and

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Speaker 2: they So it's a lot of causes there and a

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Speaker 2: lot of effects. And as an example, telomeres, which develop

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Speaker 2: early in life and predicts the lifespan of children. Children

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Speaker 2: with father loss have by age nine telomeres that are

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Speaker 2: fourteen percent shorter, and that effect is forty percent greater

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Speaker 2: for boys compared to girls. So the lack of fathers,

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Speaker 2: about half of kids today grow up in two parent households,

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Speaker 2: half of them don't. The lack of fathers is really

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Speaker 2: the primary driver behind the boy crisis.

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Speaker 1: Does that also then lead to dramatically greater criminal behavior.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it certainly does so, strikingly. In Brad Wilcox's book,

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Speaker 2: he points out that young men without both parents are

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Speaker 2: more likely to go to prison than to grab away

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Speaker 2: from college.

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Speaker 1: So this has all happened despite in some ways the

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Speaker 1: best intentions of those who created the welfare state. Has

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Speaker 1: the welfare state actually been an assistant to the decline

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Speaker 1: of males.

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Speaker 2: It certainly has. So much of this is driven by

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Speaker 2: the absence of fathers, which is of course tied to

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Speaker 2: the breakdown of the family or the lack of family formation.

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Speaker 2: So the welfare state which developed in the sixties, some

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Speaker 2: of those policies were actually only given to single moms,

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Speaker 2: and this created for a time the phenomenon of fathers

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Speaker 2: actually leaving the home or not being in the home

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Speaker 2: so that moms could get assistance with their children. And

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Speaker 2: because of that, that caused marriage rates to decline and

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Speaker 2: caused even more of a breakdown of the family. And

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Speaker 2: we know that parents that live together but don't get married,

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Speaker 2: those relationships are much less stable than parents that do

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Speaker 2: get married. So the breakdown of the family was caused

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Speaker 2: by the welfare state that was an impetus, and at

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Speaker 2: this point it's actually become the norm, especially for the

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Speaker 2: lower class and for the poor. They're not getting married

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Speaker 2: at all, so it's just become the way that things

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Speaker 2: are done, which was precipitated by the welfare state.

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Speaker 1: In some ways. I was really first bought into this

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Speaker 1: by Losing Ground by Charles Murray, where he pointed out

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Speaker 1: that the actual effect of welfare had been to break

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Speaker 1: up the family, to reduce the chances of getting out

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Speaker 1: of poverty, and to create habits which almost guaranteed you

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Speaker 1: would stay on poverty. And I thought that Murray's book

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Speaker 1: was a major factor in how we design welfare reform,

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Speaker 1: which was designed parents back to work and to get

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Speaker 1: children back into an environment where work was a norm.

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Speaker 1: The other big impact for us was Marvin Olaski's The

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Speaker 1: Tragedy of American Compassion. More Olaski argues that bureaucratic compassion

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Speaker 1: and the transfer of money to the poor were exactly

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Speaker 1: what the classic nineteenth century reformers hated because it basically

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Speaker 1: made it easier to stay poor and as a result,

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Speaker 1: guaranteed an increase in poverty behavior and an increase in

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Speaker 1: the culture of poverty. I mean, does that fit what

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Speaker 1: your studies have indicated.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So welfare reform in the nineties happened, and it

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Speaker 2: tied welfare to work, and we actually saw after that

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Speaker 2: happened that the decline in marriage started to level off. Right,

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Speaker 2: it had been just devastating to marriage rates, and it

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Speaker 2: creates intergenerational cycles of poverty. The success sequence, which is

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Speaker 2: get at least a high school diploma, get a job,

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Speaker 2: get married, and then have children the success sequence. If

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Speaker 2: you do that, you have about a three percent chance

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Speaker 2: of ending up in poverty. So it's a really powerful tool.

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Speaker 1: In a funny way, though our policies have been anti marriage,

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Speaker 1: and that we've said in order to get the subsidy,

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Speaker 1: you have to be living by yourself. On the other hand,

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Speaker 1: it's been pretty hard to argue unless you go to

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Speaker 1: a guaranteed income. It's hard to try to figure out

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Speaker 1: how you design a program which both provides resources and

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Speaker 1: discriminates in favor of marriage rather than against it.

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Speaker 2: Right, I agree, And there are still marriage penalties on

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Speaker 2: the book, especially for the lower class, ironically for the

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Speaker 2: poor when it comes to healthcare, and so we did

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Speaker 2: eliminate some of those marriage penalties for the middle class

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Speaker 2: and for the upper class, but we haven't for the poor.

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Speaker 1: All this, it seems to me, and I think your

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Speaker 1: study indicates is compounded by the education system's impact on

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Speaker 1: young males. Can you describe some of how the education

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Speaker 1: system has an unintended consequence than dealing with young males.

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Speaker 2: Right, So the primary driver is the absence of fathers,

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Speaker 2: but I think education system contributes its fair share. So

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Speaker 2: some of these trends are long term and some of

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Speaker 2: these trends are short term. So we now spend more

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Speaker 2: time in school, which has led to over credentialing and

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Speaker 2: the prioritization of academic standards over development standards. Things like recess,

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Speaker 2: things like free play, which are really important for children,

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Speaker 2: both boys and girls, but boys as well. And the

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Speaker 2: progressive style of education has really come to predominate in

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Speaker 2: our schools, and we've shifted from a free range parenting

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Speaker 2: style to a safety culture. So boys now spend a

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Speaker 2: lot of times in classrooms where they are forced to

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Speaker 2: sit still for long periods of time. We've declined recess.

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Speaker 2: We've implemented zero tolerance policies since the nineties, which were

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Speaker 2: meant to be a reaction to the fear of school shooters,

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Speaker 2: and those have punished some of the normal antics of boys.

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Speaker 2: And we've seen, for example, that boys who commit the

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Speaker 2: same behaviors as girls are actually punished more severely. So

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Speaker 2: there may be some teachers who expect that boys and

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Speaker 2: girls should behave exactly the same and the classroom environment

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Speaker 2: is just overall can be very challenging for boys because

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Speaker 2: their prefrontal cortex takes two years longer to dive developed

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Speaker 2: than it does for girls, So sometimes the behavior skills

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Speaker 2: are a challenge, and teachers tend to factor in good

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Speaker 2: behavior to their grading.

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Speaker 1: You'd almost be better off to design a system for

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Speaker 1: males and a system for females and recognize that they're

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Speaker 1: going to be substantially different.

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Speaker 2: Right, So we do have studies. We know certain pedagogical

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Speaker 2: techniques work better for boys, so free movement works better

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Speaker 2: for boys. Competition tends to work better for boys. They

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Speaker 2: need structure, they need discipline, and girls need many of

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Speaker 2: these things too, but boys especially need them. And then

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Speaker 2: boys tend to be interested sometimes in different books from girls,

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Speaker 2: so they like hero stories that tend to like nonfiction.

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Speaker 1: Brenda. One of the sort of things you think parents

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Speaker 1: can do and what kind of schools should they be

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Speaker 1: looking at in order to help young males.

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Speaker 2: I think the schools that show promise are classical schools

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Speaker 2: right now, and also Montessori schools. Classical schools are experiencing

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Speaker 2: a resurgence since COVID, But I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: parents are seeing this as well, that classical schools are

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Speaker 2: particularly good for boys. So the things that need to

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Speaker 2: be prioritized when educating boys, it's kinetic education, so free movement,

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Speaker 2: pre play, nonfiction books, books about heroes are the ones

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Speaker 2: that boys tend to like, having a teacher that is

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Speaker 2: actually likes boys. So, since the sexual revolution, and since

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Speaker 2: the idea that boys and girls are the same, three

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Speaker 2: out of four teachers are women, and they've been educated

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Speaker 2: in schools that promote gender ideology, so sometimes they expect

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Speaker 2: the boys and girls to behave the same and boys

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Speaker 2: tend to respond also to competition.

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Speaker 1: In a sense, isn't that almost in direct conflict with

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Speaker 1: the current fad though we're all the same.

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Speaker 2: Yes, this is a big part of it. Many of

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Speaker 2: these challenges can be traceable to the sexual Revolution, and

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Speaker 2: part of the sexual revolution was Simone de Beauvoir put

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Speaker 2: forth the notion that sex and gender can be separated

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Speaker 2: from one another, and that it's not tied to biology,

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Speaker 2: that the differences between men and women are a result

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Speaker 2: of social norms. And this underlies so much of what

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Speaker 2: has happened to young men and boys, because once we

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Speaker 2: think that the sexes are the same, that means that

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Speaker 2: mothers and fathers are interchangeable, and they're not. Both of

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Speaker 2: them contribute in unique and essential ways to the raising

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Speaker 2: of children. Once we accept that, we believe in the

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Speaker 2: classroom that boys and girls should behave the same and

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Speaker 2: they don't, And some of the policies that we've implemented

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Speaker 2: as a result of that have been particularly damaging for boys.

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Speaker 1: So, in a sense, the effort to create a monosexual culture,

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Speaker 1: if you will, ultimately is shaped by women and defined

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Speaker 1: as an almost anti male culture.

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Speaker 2: I would say the culture has not been good about

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Speaker 2: holding up positive views of masculinity. So the first and

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Speaker 2: most important role model that a boy has is of

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Speaker 2: course his father. He learns how to be a good

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Speaker 2: man by looking at the witness of that example and

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Speaker 2: imitating it. But then we've undermined male role models in

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Speaker 2: so many other areas. So the adult dad has become

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Speaker 2: such an obvious example in our culture, and things like

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Speaker 2: Everybody Loves Raymond, where the father is incompetent and unreliable,

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Speaker 2: he can't do anything with the help of his wife.

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Speaker 2: That's a view we hold up. And then there's the

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Speaker 2: toxic masculinity narrative, which tells boys that testosterone is basically

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Speaker 2: a poison and doesn't encourage them to grow up to

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Speaker 2: be good men. They think that there's something wrong with

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Speaker 2: them and they're not getting encouragement. And then we've undermined

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Speaker 2: male mentorship programs as well, things like boy Scouts and

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Speaker 2: free movement in sports and those sorts of things, and

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Speaker 2: those are really important, especially if dad is not around,

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Speaker 2: because those provide chances for boys to get together and

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Speaker 2: to see male role models and benefit from that guidance.

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Speaker 1: One of the things which is sobering you point out

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Speaker 1: of the report is that there is an increasing tendency

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Speaker 1: to sort of medicate young males into not showing male behavior,

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Speaker 1: the use of Riddlin and other things that your report

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Speaker 1: suggests that some drug rehabilitation centers, thirty to fifty percent

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Speaker 1: of the adolescents are now basically being medicated. They're not

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Speaker 1: learning how to live with reality. They're learning how to

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Speaker 1: avoid it.

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Speaker 2: Right, I agree, and that's certainly true in our education

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Speaker 2: system where we've seen the diagnosis of ADHD and add

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Speaker 2: spike and so many of our boys. They're being put

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Speaker 2: on Riddlin and these other drugs to ensure that they're

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Speaker 2: calm and well behaved in the classroom, instead of us

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Speaker 2: revisiting the structure of the classroom and our pediological techniques

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Speaker 2: in order to cater to boys.

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Speaker 1: How is all this going to ultimately change marriage behavior?

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Speaker 1: If you end up with a dramatically higher percentage of

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Speaker 1: women with advanced degrees and a much smaller pool of

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Speaker 1: males with advanced degrees, what happens to the traditional classic

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Speaker 1: bonding patterns in terms of leading to marriage.

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Speaker 2: I think we're already seeing the effects of that, and

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Speaker 2: that marriage is declining and people are getting married later

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Speaker 2: in life. So this really started to happen with millennials. Millennials,

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Speaker 2: the disproportion between the education of men and boys are

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Speaker 2: men and women, and the income levels has really sharpened. So,

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Speaker 2: according to Gene TWANGI, every single penny of the rise

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Speaker 2: in young adults income is due to women's income. In

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Speaker 2: the millennial generation. And this is challenging because women tend

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Speaker 2: to be hypergamous, meaning they want someone who is equal

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Speaker 2: or above them in educational attainment and income. So, for example,

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Speaker 2: women are ninety one percent more likely to swipe right

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Speaker 2: on Tinder when a man has a master's degree than

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Speaker 2: when he has a bachelor's degree.

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Speaker 1: That would encourage cheating and always listing yourself as having

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Speaker 1: a master's degree.

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Speaker 2: That's right, everyone can have a master's degree when it's virtual. Right,

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Speaker 2: That is actually happening as well, and online dating. Online

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Speaker 2: dating is very bad in many ways. Over all the platforms,

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Speaker 2: there's some differences, but they're not good because they can

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Speaker 2: encourage what you're talking about, narcissistic behavior. They can encourage

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Speaker 2: lying all those sorts of things, and then women tend

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Speaker 2: to get a false view of men because they're looking

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Speaker 2: at these men online who are doing all these sorts

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Speaker 2: of terrible things and think that's what men are really like.

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Speaker 2: So an an inanimity does not encourage good behavior. We've

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Speaker 2: seen that in social media and online dating.

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Speaker 1: But your core point, which I think is really important

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Speaker 1: and us into a controversy, women in a sense are

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Speaker 1: genetically biased in favor of finding somebody who has higher education,

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Speaker 1: greater income, and a sense can protect them and can

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Speaker 1: help them, which goes directly against the whole desire for

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Speaker 1: independence and for the modern woman who doesn't need any

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Speaker 1: of these things. But in fact, if that's an underlying pattern,

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Speaker 1: then the way we're operating now as a society is

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Speaker 1: exactly counterintuitive. We're going to produce and you already see

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Speaker 1: this with African Americans, a huge number of people who

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Speaker 1: are very talented and have good incomes, who are female,

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Speaker 1: with a much smaller pool of available males that they

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Speaker 1: could possibly marry given that bias.

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Speaker 2: Right, I think women want someone who's going to be

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Speaker 2: a strong partner and is going to be a partner,

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Speaker 2: not someone that they have to look after themselves. Right,

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Speaker 2: We've seen this narrative. So when men are struggling, which

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Speaker 2: they are academically, physically, mentally, spiritually, which we've talked about,

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Speaker 2: women are without partners, and especially if they're financially stable,

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Speaker 2: they have so many other opportunities, so they're looking at

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Speaker 2: these men and saying, this man is not someone I

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Speaker 2: want to marry, which has led to, especially in the

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Speaker 2: lower classes, this phenomenon of women who are having children

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Speaker 2: outside of marriage, because they don't view the father of

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Speaker 2: their children as a responsible and reliable partner, and so

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Speaker 2: the sexes are tremendously interdependent. It's not just about finances.

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Speaker 2: Men and women have things to learn from each other

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Speaker 2: and from that friendship and support. We love our fathers,

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Speaker 2: our sons, our brothers. They contribute so much to our lives.

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Speaker 2: And I think being grateful for a father's sacrifices and

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Speaker 2: what he brings financially is true. But that's not all

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Speaker 2: that fathers and husbands do for women. They contribute in

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Speaker 2: so many more ways and contribute to human flourishing. So,

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Speaker 2: getting back to the narrative that women and men are interdependent,

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Speaker 2: and especially when it comes to the raising of children,

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Speaker 2: having both a mother and a father is essential.

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Speaker 1: In your report, the Heritage Foundation really has a whole

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Speaker 1: series of very practical positive steps that should be taken.

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Speaker 1: Could you just walk us through the sort of key

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Speaker 1: breakthroughs that you think would make us so much healthier

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Speaker 1: country and park by reintroducing males to pursuing life and

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Speaker 1: being engaged and having a sense of self esteem.

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Speaker 2: Right, So this, as you can imagine, since we've talked

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Speaker 2: about the breath of this problem. There needs to be

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Speaker 2: comparable solutions that are going to be in a lot

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Speaker 2: of different areas, but to name a few, the most

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Speaker 2: important is to revitalize marriage and fatherhood, and to hold

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Speaker 2: up fatherhood and having a family as actually fulfilling and

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Speaker 2: such an important part of the purpose of life that

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Speaker 2: men are searching for, not just men, but men and women.

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Speaker 2: And this is particular and important because now so many

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Speaker 2: of adults have come from broken homes themselves, and when

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Speaker 2: that happens, those adults can have a negative view of marriage.

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Speaker 2: They're not quite sure necessarily how to work through communication

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Speaker 2: in a healthy manner because they miss that model of

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Speaker 2: what a good marriage is. So we need to have

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Speaker 2: more of a conversation about what the purpose of marriage

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Speaker 2: is and what to prioritize when you're looking for a spouse.

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Speaker 2: Another solution is school choice, of course, because it's really

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Speaker 2: important for parents to be able to go to a

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Speaker 2: school and evaluate a school and say, is this a

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Speaker 2: good environment for my boy, for my specific boy. Are

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Speaker 2: they prioritizing discipline, are they allowing for competition and for recess?

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Speaker 2: And do they have books on the curriculum that my

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Speaker 2: child is going to be interested in. Then a third

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Speaker 2: one would be to get away from the narrative that

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Speaker 2: there's one track in life, which is to go to college,

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Speaker 2: and to actually open up vocational schools and apprenticeship programs.

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Speaker 2: Brad Wilcox indicates in his book that the Department of

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Speaker 2: Education spends seven twenty nine times more on colleges and

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Speaker 2: universities than vocational education in high schools and community college.

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Speaker 2: And the economic opportunities for men with a high school

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Speaker 2: diploma or less have shifted because of economic shifts, and

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Speaker 2: so that's really a challenge. And then finally, I would

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Speaker 2: say that we really need to prioritized embodied interactions. So

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Speaker 2: get away from the screens, get towards free play and

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Speaker 2: bodied play, get away from dating apps, and get back

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Speaker 2: to face to face interactions.

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Speaker 1: You're playing a major role in helping shape public policy,

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Speaker 1: and you come at it from a very interesting background.

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Speaker 1: What got you personally engaged in this kind of activity.

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Speaker 1: I mean, what you're doing is very important for the

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Speaker 1: whole country.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you. I have written on feminism and critiques

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Speaker 2: that and I started getting interested in this topic because

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Speaker 2: once you're thinking about women, you have to think about

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Speaker 2: men because we're so interdependent and you end up reading

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Speaker 2: that literature as well. And I came across Warren Pharrell's

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Speaker 2: book The Boy Crisis, and it's really eye opening because

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Speaker 2: the statistics are just staggering about the importance of fathers

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Speaker 2: and not enough talk is happening about this problem for

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Speaker 2: how severe and how important it is. And you can

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Speaker 2: miss it depending on your perhaps your demographics, your stage

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Speaker 2: in life, and maybe not see it for what it is.

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Speaker 2: And once you start to see the economic shifts, the

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Speaker 2: education shifts, the breakdown of the family, and how far

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Speaker 2: reaching it is, we need to be doing more work

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Speaker 2: to try and combat this devastating effects.

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Speaker 1: You've work at Heritage, but if I understand quickly, you

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Speaker 1: also do some work at Hillsdale.

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Speaker 2: I was a James Madison Fellow with Hillsdale. It's a

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Speaker 2: program for young public policy professionals.

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Speaker 1: Did you find that helpful?

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Speaker 2: I did find it helpful because you're having discussions with

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Speaker 2: other folks in these areas and learning their perspectives and

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Speaker 2: refining your ideas. Right, that's what freedom of speech, that's

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Speaker 2: what deliberation does. So it's always helpful to get in

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Speaker 2: a room with some other smart people and sharpen your ideas.

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Speaker 1: We have somebody who came to us as an intern

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Speaker 1: and now is with us as a policy person who

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Speaker 1: came out of Hillsdale in Michigan. And we have another

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Speaker 1: person is with us who's now going to Hillsdale in

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Speaker 1: Washington in their graduate program. It seems to be a

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Speaker 1: very rigorous and very serious institution.

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Speaker 2: I would wholeheartedly agree they are doing good and serious

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Speaker 2: work at Hillsdale.

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Speaker 1: It's a nice counterpart to Heritage, which I've known Heritage

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Speaker 1: since Fulner founded it. Its impact on the country has

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Speaker 1: been really pretty profound on a whole range of policies.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I'm very grateful to be there, and it gives

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Speaker 2: you also a sense of responsibility because we are doing

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Speaker 2: good work, and if you work at Heritage, you are

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Speaker 2: very privileged and have an obligation to try and help

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Speaker 2: the country.

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Speaker 1: So, in a sense, the next administration could develop a

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Speaker 1: kind of male reinforcement strategy and have a series of

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Speaker 1: initiatives designed to rebuild the self sufficiency in the sense

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Speaker 1: of direction and the sense of engagement among young males

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Speaker 1: in a way that may be an integral part of

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Speaker 1: our anti drug program because having people having greater self esteem,

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Speaker 1: I suspetfect will be correlated with less likely suicide and

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Speaker 1: less likely drug abuse.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, about seventy percent of the opioid overdoses were men,

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Speaker 2: so this is certainly part of that issue. This is

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Speaker 2: very much a cultural problem, and we need cultural solutions.

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Speaker 2: But I do think there is room for public policy

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Speaker 2: on these issues. And some of them are not new solutions.

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Speaker 2: They're old solutions, things like school choice that we just

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Speaker 2: haven't been able to implement their things like reinvigorating mail

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Speaker 2: only spaces. So there is room for some public policy

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Speaker 2: initiatives here.

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Speaker 1: I look forward to it, and I'm confident that Heritage

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Speaker 1: will be providing some of the guidelines for those kind

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Speaker 1: of policies for the next Congress and the next administration. Brenda,

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Speaker 1: I want to thank you for joining me. Your new report,

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Speaker 1: Men Without Meaning the Harmful Effects of Expressive Individualism is

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Speaker 1: available at Heritage dot org and we'll also have it

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Speaker 1: featured on our podcast show page. I really appreciate you

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Speaker 1: taking the time to walk us through this very important,

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Speaker 1: literally at the heart of who we are conversation.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you to my guests. Brenda Hafera. You can read

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Speaker 1: her new report Men without meaning the harmful effects of

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Speaker 1: expressive individualism on our show page at Newtsworld dot com.

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Speaker 1: Newsworld is produced by Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our

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Speaker 1: executive producer is Guarnsey Sloan. Our researcher is Rachel Peterson.

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Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley.

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Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingish three sixty. If

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Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple

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Speaker 1: Podcasts and both rate us with five stars and give

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Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about.

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Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of Newtsworld can sign up for my

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Speaker 1: three free weekly columns at ginglishree sixty dot com com

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Speaker 1: slash newsletter. I'm Nutkngriich. This is neutral

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Speaker 2: M