WEBVTT - Going to Venus on the Cheap 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:25.596 Pushkin. When technology works really well, it turns incredible human 0:00:25.596 --> 0:00:29.316 accomplishments into things that are so boring and so cheap 0:00:29.636 --> 0:00:32.316 that we don't even notice them. We can light up 0:00:32.356 --> 0:00:35.356 the darkness at the push of a button, basically for free. 0:00:35.916 --> 0:00:38.716 We can talk to each other on magical video calls 0:00:38.716 --> 0:00:42.596 from the future, also basically free, also literally at the 0:00:42.636 --> 0:00:45.156 push of a button, And yet we complain if the 0:00:45.276 --> 0:00:48.516 video on our magic call gets a little glitchy. One 0:00:48.556 --> 0:00:51.596 fun thing to think about in this context is what 0:00:51.876 --> 0:00:55.676 is still cool and exciting and expensive but will become 0:00:55.996 --> 0:00:59.636 routine and cheap if the engineers and entrepreneurs working today 0:00:59.916 --> 0:01:03.236 are able to do what they're trying to do. Maybe 0:01:03.276 --> 0:01:07.476 the most interesting, compelling answer to that question is sending 0:01:07.716 --> 0:01:17.116 rockets to outer space. I'm Jacob Goldstein and this is 0:01:17.156 --> 0:01:20.276 What's Your Problem, the show where entrepreneurs and engineers talk 0:01:20.316 --> 0:01:22.636 about how they're going to change the world once they 0:01:22.676 --> 0:01:27.116 solve a few problems. My guest today is Peter Beck, 0:01:27.476 --> 0:01:30.756 founder and CEO of rocket Lab, a company that builds 0:01:30.836 --> 0:01:34.556 rockets and satellites. Is problem, how do you make going 0:01:34.596 --> 0:01:37.596 to space cheap and boring? At least? How do you 0:01:37.636 --> 0:01:40.356 make it cheap because I mean it is still space. 0:01:42.516 --> 0:01:46.836 Peter founded rocket Lab to capitalize on the miniaturization of spacecraft. 0:01:47.276 --> 0:01:51.276 Satellites were getting smaller, he figured rockets should get smaller too. 0:01:51.716 --> 0:01:54.836 The idea worked. Rocket Lab now builds rockets that are 0:01:54.876 --> 0:01:57.836 just fifty nine feet tall, about as tall as four 0:01:58.076 --> 0:02:01.316 SUVs stacked end to end. Those rockets have now put 0:02:01.356 --> 0:02:04.356 more than one hundred satellites into orbit, and at some 0:02:04.476 --> 0:02:07.396 point in the next few weeks exactly when depends on 0:02:07.396 --> 0:02:10.596 the weather, another rocket Lab rocket. We'll take off from 0:02:10.636 --> 0:02:13.676 the company's launch site in New Zealand, and this rocket 0:02:13.716 --> 0:02:16.396 is going to send a small spacecraft to orbit the Moon. 0:02:16.756 --> 0:02:19.356 It's a sort of practice run for a Moon orbiting 0:02:19.396 --> 0:02:22.156 space station that NASA is planning, and it'll be the 0:02:22.236 --> 0:02:25.276 cheapest mission to the Moon ever. Part of the reason 0:02:25.676 --> 0:02:28.716 Peter told me it is also the latest mission to 0:02:28.756 --> 0:02:30.836 the Moon. The mission to the Moon here is about 0:02:31.156 --> 0:02:34.196 how do we take a small satellite and get it 0:02:34.276 --> 0:02:37.796 to these far off destinations that would normally require you know, 0:02:38.036 --> 0:02:40.356 a big rocket and one hundred million dollars. You said 0:02:40.356 --> 0:02:42.276 it normally costs around one hundred million. What's this one 0:02:42.316 --> 0:02:45.036 cost around ten million? Ten million? Great? So it's a 0:02:45.076 --> 0:02:48.156 ten x reduction, a tenth of the cost. You know, 0:02:48.516 --> 0:02:51.836 we have to use every single gram, like we're measuring 0:02:51.876 --> 0:02:55.556 this mission in graham of fuel, like a teethpoon of fuel, 0:02:55.636 --> 0:02:59.996 gram of everything, graham of everything. So you know, we 0:03:00.396 --> 0:03:02.636 we care about how much ice is built up on 0:03:02.676 --> 0:03:04.516 the side of the rocket. The rocket doesn't have any 0:03:04.636 --> 0:03:06.716 cameras on this one on a scent because we can't 0:03:06.716 --> 0:03:09.076 afford the mass of the camera because you a camera 0:03:09.116 --> 0:03:10.756 where it's like, no, I'm not carried a cabaret a 0:03:10.756 --> 0:03:12.276 space it's not going to get us to the moon. 0:03:12.476 --> 0:03:16.276 We haven't got two grams of camera mass. So it 0:03:16.356 --> 0:03:20.236 is incredibly incredibly high performance. And you know the engine, 0:03:20.236 --> 0:03:24.036 the trajectory that structures the tanks, those tanks. If if 0:03:24.036 --> 0:03:25.756 you ever got to hold one of those tanks, it's 0:03:25.796 --> 0:03:28.196 like a magic trick because you hold this tank that's 0:03:28.236 --> 0:03:31.116 about the size of a Swiss ball, you know those 0:03:31.116 --> 0:03:33.156 Swiss balls. No, I don't know what that is. It's 0:03:33.196 --> 0:03:35.596 it's like a giant ball that people do exercises on, 0:03:35.756 --> 0:03:37.836 like one of those bouncy round balls that like the 0:03:37.876 --> 0:03:39.876 guy at the office with the bad back sits on. 0:03:41.076 --> 0:03:43.356 So they're about that size a little bit smaller than that, 0:03:43.836 --> 0:03:46.596 and they just they wait, they're all carbon composite with 0:03:46.676 --> 0:03:50.476 an incredibly thin wall, and you know, they don't look 0:03:50.516 --> 0:03:52.716 like you pick it up and it just feels like 0:03:52.716 --> 0:03:55.556 a magic trick because they are so incredibly light. A 0:03:55.676 --> 0:03:58.476 million little things to make everything as late and as 0:03:58.516 --> 0:04:02.316 efficient as possible. Yeah, and that's that's what gets us there. Good. 0:04:03.756 --> 0:04:06.156 We had to talk about Venus. We can't not talk 0:04:06.196 --> 0:04:09.556 about Venus. You're going to Venus quite like Venus. I 0:04:09.556 --> 0:04:13.076 think it's it's a very it's a very underestimated and 0:04:13.156 --> 0:04:18.076 understudied planet. I think it's underrated heat well noun of heat, no, no, no, 0:04:18.116 --> 0:04:20.316 I mean I think Mars must get so much attention 0:04:20.396 --> 0:04:23.916 because politically, you can put a footprint on the surface 0:04:23.916 --> 0:04:27.236 of Mars, so you know, it's you can take core pictures, 0:04:27.236 --> 0:04:29.556 you can take really cool pictures, all of that stuff. Yeah, yeah, 0:04:29.556 --> 0:04:32.236 so great politically, But actually, if you want to stand 0:04:32.236 --> 0:04:34.516 back and look at the closest analog to Earth, it's 0:04:34.596 --> 0:04:39.196 actually Venus. Both from a mass perspective from you know, Venus, 0:04:39.196 --> 0:04:42.676 has just Earth gone wrong in a massive climate change event, 0:04:42.956 --> 0:04:45.676 that's all Venuses. That's a scary way to think about it. 0:04:45.796 --> 0:04:47.236 I mean, this this is where this is where we 0:04:47.236 --> 0:04:50.436 will go is Venus. So what to learn? So there 0:04:50.516 --> 0:04:55.076 is this paper a few years ago that found this gasp, Yeah, 0:04:55.116 --> 0:05:00.156 that suggests at least possibly that sometimes associated with life. Right, 0:05:00.196 --> 0:05:02.476 So maybe there is or was life on Venus and 0:05:02.476 --> 0:05:04.956 you're going to go try and figure that out. I mean, really, 0:05:05.316 --> 0:05:06.956 one of the earliest memories, and I think the thing 0:05:06.956 --> 0:05:09.196 that got me into space was, you know, I was 0:05:09.476 --> 0:05:11.436 outside with my father one night and he pointed to 0:05:11.476 --> 0:05:13.196 the to the night sky and the stars and the 0:05:13.196 --> 0:05:15.916 sky and said to me, look, those are stars. They 0:05:15.916 --> 0:05:19.116 have planets orbiting them most likely, and you never know, 0:05:19.236 --> 0:05:21.916 there could be somebody looking back at you. And that 0:05:21.996 --> 0:05:23.836 was really the point in time for me. It's like, Wow, 0:05:23.916 --> 0:05:26.636 this is bigger than me. This is this is something 0:05:26.676 --> 0:05:30.076 that I need to do. So tell me one thing 0:05:30.116 --> 0:05:32.476 about going to Venus that you haven't figured out yet. 0:05:32.516 --> 0:05:34.996 That mission is a year or more off, right, So 0:05:35.236 --> 0:05:37.196 I'm sure there's a million things you've got to figure 0:05:37.236 --> 0:05:38.676 out that you haven't figured out yet to do that. 0:05:38.716 --> 0:05:41.756 What's one, what's one problem you haven't solved yet? Well, 0:05:42.756 --> 0:05:45.796 I mean, at least on the surface, we've solved the problems. 0:05:45.956 --> 0:05:48.436 A lot of these things aren't problems until until they've 0:05:48.476 --> 0:05:52.836 become problems. So, I mean one of the biggest challenges 0:05:53.596 --> 0:05:57.196 is getting there is difficult. It's it's insanely hard to 0:05:57.236 --> 0:06:00.916 get there. But we're not just going to Venus where 0:06:00.916 --> 0:06:04.676 separating off a small probe and then that probe enters 0:06:05.076 --> 0:06:08.396 the you know, the Venetian atmosphere, and we have an 0:06:08.436 --> 0:06:11.996 iflometer on board that samples the atmosphere and looks for 0:06:12.116 --> 0:06:16.556 organic matter and and you know basically you know, phosphine 0:06:16.716 --> 0:06:19.716 and other other important elements and then sends its findings 0:06:19.756 --> 0:06:22.836 back to Earth. And you've only got like a couple 0:06:22.876 --> 0:06:25.116 of minutes, right, it's like falling through the atmosphere and 0:06:25.116 --> 0:06:28.636 sixty two hundred and sixty seconds. So four of doing 0:06:28.836 --> 0:06:30.156 mouth on the radio a bad idea, but they what 0:06:30.316 --> 0:06:32.276 has had four and a half minutes, four minutes twenty 0:06:32.276 --> 0:06:33.916 second best, So you've got to all the weight of 0:06:34.036 --> 0:06:38.196 Venus for that four minutes. Yeah, and if you want to, 0:06:38.236 --> 0:06:40.276 if you want to, you know, stack up in probabilities. 0:06:40.476 --> 0:06:43.156 I mean, it's difficult to get there. Just if we 0:06:43.236 --> 0:06:45.316 even if we get to Venus will be you know 0:06:45.436 --> 0:06:47.956 that that's an incredible accomplishment for a private you know, 0:06:48.436 --> 0:06:51.756 not a non government get to get to Venus. If 0:06:51.836 --> 0:06:54.036 if we get to Venus and we and we successfully 0:06:54.316 --> 0:06:57.556 into the atmosphere with the probe, huge if we into 0:06:57.596 --> 0:07:00.276 the atmosphere of the probe and it survives and we 0:07:00.316 --> 0:07:02.996 actually get the data back to Earth because you know, 0:07:03.076 --> 0:07:07.636 it's it's a like a twenty what radio transmitting all 0:07:07.676 --> 0:07:10.556 the way back to Earth from the entering the atmosphere, 0:07:10.556 --> 0:07:12.636 and then that's a huge We get data, that would 0:07:12.636 --> 0:07:15.716 be amazing. If we actually find something like if the 0:07:15.796 --> 0:07:21.316 niphlometer actually picks up some form of organic then some 0:07:21.356 --> 0:07:25.676 sign of life, then that's when things get interesting. Well yeah, 0:07:25.676 --> 0:07:27.876 if finding alife on Vietis would be a big deal. 0:07:27.996 --> 0:07:30.276 I mean, I'm comfortable agree with that, but I should 0:07:30.316 --> 0:07:32.876 stress the probabilities of all of those things happening are 0:07:32.996 --> 0:07:36.316 very low. But if you have the ability, you have 0:07:36.356 --> 0:07:38.276 a rocket, you have a spacecraft, you have the ability 0:07:38.316 --> 0:07:41.156 to do it. I just felt that I just couldn't 0:07:41.356 --> 0:07:45.716 not try. Great, and you're spending your own money, you're 0:07:45.716 --> 0:07:48.516 spending the company's money, is that right? Yeah? Yep. And 0:07:48.676 --> 0:07:51.676 it's a public company now is the rationale that it's 0:07:51.756 --> 0:07:54.236 marketing or just like it's a good thing for the 0:07:54.236 --> 0:07:56.076 world and our company wants to do good things for 0:07:56.076 --> 0:07:58.036 the world. Well, I mean this is you know, this 0:07:58.076 --> 0:08:00.156 project has been running for many years, so that this 0:08:00.356 --> 0:08:03.436 is not like you know, surprise, it's a new expense. Yeah, 0:08:04.076 --> 0:08:08.476 and we're using old rockets, old motors, in old bits 0:08:08.516 --> 0:08:11.636 of qualifier hardware stuff you're found around the sharp stuff 0:08:11.636 --> 0:08:13.556 and send it to Venas I kept telling the team, 0:08:13.596 --> 0:08:16.756 this is a nights and weekends kind of project underlay 0:08:16.796 --> 0:08:18.956 fine Venus in our spare time that could be like 0:08:18.996 --> 0:08:23.636 your mitya exactly exactly. So you know, from net perspective, 0:08:23.636 --> 0:08:26.276 you know, it's not a huge huge outlay. But I 0:08:26.276 --> 0:08:28.996 mean even if we get to Venus, think of the 0:08:29.036 --> 0:08:31.836 capabilities that we've now created. I mean, if you think 0:08:31.876 --> 0:08:35.116 about the way that we do planetary science now it's 0:08:35.356 --> 0:08:39.476 one mission every decade with a billion dollar thing in 0:08:39.516 --> 0:08:42.076 front of it. Imagine if you can go to Venus 0:08:42.116 --> 0:08:44.236 and do real science, go to Mars and do real 0:08:44.276 --> 0:08:48.196 science for you know, ten to twenty million dollars. It's 0:08:48.236 --> 0:08:53.036 just it completely changes the game and planetary science going 0:08:53.076 --> 0:08:57.796 to other planets on the cheap I love it after 0:08:57.836 --> 0:09:00.276 the break. The problems peterback and Rocket Lab had to 0:09:00.316 --> 0:09:03.036 solve to get here, and the problems they'll have to 0:09:03.076 --> 0:09:05.636 solve to get where they want to go next. I 0:09:05.676 --> 0:09:08.316 mean metaphorically to get where they want to go next, 0:09:08.356 --> 0:09:10.716 because the literal where they want to go next his 0:09:10.836 --> 0:09:22.796 arviously space. Now let's get back to the show. Peterbeck 0:09:22.876 --> 0:09:25.956 grew up in rural New Zealand. When he was a teenager, 0:09:25.996 --> 0:09:29.716 he started building rocket engines and attaching them to basically 0:09:29.756 --> 0:09:34.316 a BMX bike. There's nothing better to test your conviction 0:09:34.476 --> 0:09:36.716 of your engineering than to put a league the side 0:09:36.716 --> 0:09:40.236 of it. Put a leg on either side of it. League, yes, correct, 0:09:40.356 --> 0:09:43.556 how fast did it go? So it would do zero 0:09:43.556 --> 0:09:48.596 two hundred miles an hour in a few seconds. And 0:09:48.836 --> 0:09:52.836 they lined me up against the newest Dodge Viper and 0:09:52.916 --> 0:09:55.196 I cleaned the Dodge Viper up in a quarter of 0:09:55.236 --> 0:09:58.476 a mile. Peter skipped college and worked as a tool 0:09:58.556 --> 0:10:01.716 and die apprentice at an appliance company. Bounced around for 0:10:01.796 --> 0:10:04.156 a while after that, and in two thousand and six, 0:10:04.356 --> 0:10:07.116 when he was around thirty years old, he founded his company, 0:10:07.236 --> 0:10:10.036 rocket Lab. Let's get to the point where you have 0:10:10.156 --> 0:10:13.196 money and you've started a company, What do you have 0:10:13.236 --> 0:10:16.276 to do to build a smaller, cheaper rocket. Well, I mean, 0:10:16.556 --> 0:10:19.156 I love your premise. You just find money and someone 0:10:19.196 --> 0:10:21.356 just gives you money. I think it's poor to realize 0:10:21.396 --> 0:10:24.276 that at that time, I was a crazy Kiwi running 0:10:24.276 --> 0:10:27.956 around Silicon Valley with a one tense scale blueprint of 0:10:27.996 --> 0:10:30.676 a rocket, in and out of boardrooms, trying to trying 0:10:30.676 --> 0:10:33.836 to convince people that, you know, that this small locked 0:10:33.876 --> 0:10:36.676 rocket was a real thing, and raising you know, a 0:10:36.676 --> 0:10:39.676 few million dollars, in tens of million dollars ultimately, and 0:10:39.676 --> 0:10:42.196 then finally hundreds of millions of dollars. But you know, 0:10:42.196 --> 0:10:44.836 I look today and you can just kind of say 0:10:44.876 --> 0:10:47.356 the word rocket and get written one hundred million dollars check. 0:10:47.436 --> 0:10:49.716 Well maybe yesterday, I don't know about today. It's changing 0:10:49.796 --> 0:10:52.836 fast out there, right, Well, it's changing fast. But but 0:10:52.876 --> 0:10:56.036 I mean it's a different, completely different world. I don't 0:10:56.036 --> 0:10:58.236 mean to minimize the work you did, no, no, no, 0:10:58.236 --> 0:11:00.636 no, no no at all. So once you've got the money, 0:11:00.636 --> 0:11:02.436 I'm sure it was easy to build a rcket. Yeah, 0:11:02.476 --> 0:11:06.196 PiZZ k. So So I mean, I think the best 0:11:06.196 --> 0:11:08.436 way to describe building a rocket and building a rocket 0:11:08.436 --> 0:11:11.596 company is running through a maze at night and it 0:11:11.716 --> 0:11:14.396 every did end. There's a guy with a shotgun, because 0:11:14.436 --> 0:11:16.796 if you run down one of those did ends too far, 0:11:17.316 --> 0:11:20.476 you consume too much resource and too much money and 0:11:20.516 --> 0:11:23.036 time to be able to turn back, and you're dad 0:11:23.076 --> 0:11:26.796 and you die. You did. So what was there a 0:11:26.836 --> 0:11:28.956 moment early in the lafe for your company when you 0:11:28.996 --> 0:11:34.396 almost died? Oh? Heaps, troll me one, tell me one. Well, um, 0:11:36.036 --> 0:11:39.836 probably prior to the electron program m once we would 0:11:39.876 --> 0:11:41.996 raise the funding for them. The electron is the small 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:44.716 rocket you built it to just say, correct, well, before 0:11:44.756 --> 0:11:47.796 we were before you had a roquet up and running 0:11:47.836 --> 0:11:50.556 a small rocket. Yeah, but there's there's a myriad of 0:11:50.596 --> 0:11:53.516 times where you know, the wrong decision or the wrong 0:11:53.556 --> 0:11:56.516 engineering solution would have would have ended in you know, 0:11:57.396 --> 0:11:59.916 a terminal case for the company. And you see that 0:12:00.076 --> 0:12:02.156 in rocket companies all the time. I mean there's a 0:12:02.636 --> 0:12:04.756 last count that was like a hundred over one hundred 0:12:04.796 --> 0:12:07.836 small small rocket companies trying to build small rockets, and 0:12:07.876 --> 0:12:10.676 their rise and fall very very quickly as they run 0:12:10.716 --> 0:12:14.036 down the wrong the wrong paths. So clearly rocket science 0:12:14.076 --> 0:12:17.116 is hard, right, It's like the cliche hard thing. But 0:12:17.276 --> 0:12:19.716 that we compare is your things against. But i'd love 0:12:19.716 --> 0:12:22.716 to hear you talk about, you know, why rocket science 0:12:22.796 --> 0:12:25.836 is hard, and in particular, why is it hard to 0:12:26.316 --> 0:12:28.356 do what you sent out to do to send small 0:12:28.516 --> 0:12:31.756 rockets to space. You're battling physics all the way there, 0:12:31.876 --> 0:12:33.996 and if you're only a fraction of a percent out 0:12:34.076 --> 0:12:37.236 on engine performance, a fraction of percent out on a 0:12:37.316 --> 0:12:39.836 trajectory or anything like that, then you just get nothing 0:12:39.836 --> 0:12:43.876 to orbit. You've just created a ten million dollar firework. 0:12:44.156 --> 0:12:46.516 So that's why it's hard. And let me ask a 0:12:46.596 --> 0:12:49.036 dumb question, why not just make it a little bigger, 0:12:49.076 --> 0:12:50.876 put a little extra fuel in there so you have 0:12:50.916 --> 0:12:53.116 some margin on that side. So we call it the 0:12:53.116 --> 0:12:56.356 spiral of doom. And it's fairly obvious. So if you 0:12:56.396 --> 0:12:58.796 have a rocket that's a little bit heavy, or you 0:12:58.836 --> 0:13:00.436 just want to put a little bit of payload in there, 0:13:00.516 --> 0:13:03.196 a satellite on board, then you have to add more fuel. 0:13:03.596 --> 0:13:05.876 If you add more fuel, you need more tank to 0:13:05.916 --> 0:13:08.996 hold the fuel because you've added more inert mass and tank. 0:13:09.116 --> 0:13:11.476 You have to add more fuel. Because you've added more fuel, 0:13:11.476 --> 0:13:14.236 you have to add more tank, and quickly you can 0:13:15.796 --> 0:13:18.676 have a very big racket. Yeah, or a rocket that 0:13:18.676 --> 0:13:22.356 doesn't even work. Yeah, this is why it's incredibly hard. 0:13:22.356 --> 0:13:25.516 And on small launch vehicles, it's way way harder than 0:13:25.556 --> 0:13:27.436 a big rocket. And I can say that with my 0:13:27.476 --> 0:13:30.196 hand on my heart from from a position of authority 0:13:30.276 --> 0:13:31.916 right now, because I'm building a big rocket and I've 0:13:31.916 --> 0:13:34.996 built a small rocket, and you know, you just take 0:13:35.076 --> 0:13:38.796 one component, one pressure transducer. It's just a little pressure 0:13:38.796 --> 0:13:42.356 measuring device on a little rocket that represents you know, 0:13:42.516 --> 0:13:45.996 point one percent of the total mass of the rocket. 0:13:46.556 --> 0:13:50.756 On a big rocket, it represents point woo. So the 0:13:50.876 --> 0:13:54.196 problem is that there are devices that you need to 0:13:54.236 --> 0:13:57.356 put on any rocket, whether it's small or big. And 0:13:57.396 --> 0:13:59.836 if it's a small rocket, the devices take up a 0:13:59.916 --> 0:14:02.676 bigger percentage of the total mass you've got to play with. 0:14:02.836 --> 0:14:06.076 Not everything scales down, exactly right, Not everything scales down. 0:14:06.556 --> 0:14:09.716 So so what do you mean? Is that just a 0:14:09.756 --> 0:14:11.996 lighter trail and error? So I get way, it's horror. Yeah, 0:14:12.036 --> 0:14:13.756 how do you make it work? Well, you can actually 0:14:13.796 --> 0:14:16.036 reverse the spiral of doom and make it a spiral 0:14:16.036 --> 0:14:20.196 of joy if if you can make things light. And 0:14:20.396 --> 0:14:22.716 you know, we were a very very first to build 0:14:22.756 --> 0:14:26.636 an all carbon composite rocket, so you know, carbon composites 0:14:26.676 --> 0:14:29.836 are incredibly light, and if you have a light structure, 0:14:29.876 --> 0:14:31.476 then you don't need as much feel or you can 0:14:31.516 --> 0:14:34.396 carry more satellites to all But and you know that 0:14:34.476 --> 0:14:37.516 was one of the technologies that we pioneered. Both that 0:14:38.596 --> 0:14:41.916 and you know the rocket engine Rutherford, So the three 0:14:41.996 --> 0:14:44.916 D printing of that engine and the electric turbopump on 0:14:44.956 --> 0:14:47.796 that engine. So these are all key technologies that make 0:14:48.036 --> 0:14:51.316 Electron like the preeminent small launcher and then in the 0:14:51.356 --> 0:14:54.636 market right now, So let's talk about three D printing 0:14:55.716 --> 0:14:58.436 the engine. Tell me about three D printing the engine, Like, 0:14:58.836 --> 0:15:02.076 why did you do it? Yeah? Did it not work 0:15:02.116 --> 0:15:04.196 at the beginning. I'm interested in things that don't work 0:15:04.196 --> 0:15:06.196 and then you figure out how to make them work. Well, 0:15:06.236 --> 0:15:08.516 I mean, you love the rocket industry because almost nothing 0:15:08.556 --> 0:15:11.876 works fres time, that's the reality, because the margins are 0:15:11.876 --> 0:15:15.356 so slip you know, yes, yeah, because everything is always 0:15:15.436 --> 0:15:19.956 almost failing, even when it worked. So, I mean, we 0:15:20.116 --> 0:15:23.956 first announced the Rutherford engine back in two thy fifteen, 0:15:23.956 --> 0:15:26.156 and we had a three D printed one, and everybody 0:15:26.276 --> 0:15:28.596 just like, what's this guy up to? Like three D 0:15:28.676 --> 0:15:31.276 printing a rocket engine? Seriously, And this was at a 0:15:31.356 --> 0:15:34.876 time when three D printing was used for bottle openers 0:15:34.916 --> 0:15:38.796 at trade shows and cats prosthetics, it was it seemed 0:15:38.796 --> 0:15:42.516 like a gimmick, right, some gimmick to present gimmick. Yeah yeah, yeah, 0:15:42.556 --> 0:15:44.396 yeah yeah yeah. So why did you do it and 0:15:44.636 --> 0:15:46.276 why did it not work at first? And how did 0:15:46.316 --> 0:15:49.116 you make it work? Well? I mean so metallic three 0:15:49.156 --> 0:15:51.756 D printing for us was an obvious technology that it's 0:15:51.796 --> 0:15:56.676 great to make really really complex things at relatively small volumes, 0:15:56.716 --> 0:15:59.716 and the space industry is always small volumes. If you 0:15:59.756 --> 0:16:02.476 can combine a number of really really complicated parts to 0:16:02.516 --> 0:16:05.676 get it, and you can print it in a material 0:16:06.076 --> 0:16:08.836 and have a printing process that ensures that the material 0:16:09.196 --> 0:16:12.516 retains its strength, then you're onto a winner. So we 0:16:12.596 --> 0:16:15.156 took a big gamble because you know, when we started it, 0:16:15.156 --> 0:16:18.796 it was certainly a weird kind of approach. And you know, 0:16:18.876 --> 0:16:21.356 we we printed the engine, and we went through lots 0:16:21.356 --> 0:16:24.396 of iteration, lots of material science, and you know, it's 0:16:24.436 --> 0:16:26.676 at the point now we've we've put two hundred and 0:16:26.716 --> 0:16:31.036 seventy rather engines in orbit, and you know, we print 0:16:31.076 --> 0:16:34.156 one one engine every twenty four hours or less. If 0:16:34.156 --> 0:16:36.756 you're following traditional processes, it would be. You know, you 0:16:36.796 --> 0:16:38.996 wouldn't produce an engine every twenty four hours. You produce 0:16:39.036 --> 0:16:41.956 an engine a month. Oh wow, it's not like ten 0:16:42.036 --> 0:16:44.636 percent faster or fifty percent past. It's an order of 0:16:44.756 --> 0:16:49.036 magnitude fast. It's just unfair faster, is what it is. Unfair. Yeah, 0:16:49.236 --> 0:16:52.996 it's completely unreasonable. So did your first test flight work? 0:16:53.116 --> 0:16:55.196 I'm looking for a little failure here. You keep telling 0:16:55.236 --> 0:16:56.916 me how hard everything is, But so far in this 0:16:56.996 --> 0:17:00.716 story everything is working. What's the thing that didn't work? Well? Look, 0:17:00.756 --> 0:17:03.876 I mean we like to fail fast, but it's it's 0:17:03.876 --> 0:17:06.556 it's important to fail fast on you know, a component 0:17:06.636 --> 0:17:10.876 level and subsystem level. I really don't like to fail 0:17:11.156 --> 0:17:15.636 at full scale level rock at that you lauge to fail. No, 0:17:15.916 --> 0:17:18.596 So you know the very first test flight, you know, 0:17:18.676 --> 0:17:20.876 we got through all of the high risk events, you know, 0:17:20.996 --> 0:17:25.516 launch stage separation, ignition, battery jettison, faring separation, all the 0:17:25.596 --> 0:17:28.636 high risk events, and ultimately that launch vehicle was brought 0:17:28.676 --> 0:17:31.316 down for one little tick box on a piece of 0:17:31.316 --> 0:17:35.956 ground software on the flight termination system from a third party. 0:17:36.076 --> 0:17:38.156 So even if you have your whole rocket and have 0:17:38.356 --> 0:17:42.036 everything perfect, it was one person just didn't take a 0:17:42.076 --> 0:17:45.876 tick box in a piece of software providing the flight 0:17:45.956 --> 0:17:49.436 termination services, and the vehicle was terminated. What has terminated me? 0:17:49.556 --> 0:17:52.236 In that context? You had to blow it up because 0:17:52.316 --> 0:17:54.836 the software that was supposed to tell you whether you 0:17:54.876 --> 0:17:57.636 had to blow it up or not didn't work right correct? 0:17:58.156 --> 0:18:01.156 And that was your first launch, first launch, and we 0:18:01.276 --> 0:18:03.476 were through, like I say, through all the high risk 0:18:03.516 --> 0:18:05.996 events and just cruising on home to all. But so 0:18:06.356 --> 0:18:08.116 you know, there was a less than sort of a 0:18:08.156 --> 0:18:11.076 minute or more to go until we're in orbit. So yeah, no, 0:18:11.156 --> 0:18:14.436 we're all in the control room and we, like I said, 0:18:14.436 --> 0:18:19.036 we watched the very first launch go flawlessly, and then 0:18:19.076 --> 0:18:21.836 we're standing there in the engine just shut down. Is 0:18:21.876 --> 0:18:24.876 there any there might not be? But is there any 0:18:24.916 --> 0:18:27.236 bigger a lesson from that or is it just the 0:18:27.316 --> 0:18:28.996 kind of thing that always goes wrong and there's nothing 0:18:29.036 --> 0:18:30.956 you can do about it. No. I think the lesson 0:18:31.076 --> 0:18:34.956 is that there is a million ways for a launch 0:18:35.036 --> 0:18:37.716 vehicle or a rocket to fail, and you have to 0:18:37.756 --> 0:18:40.116 be over each one of those million ways. Yeah, it's 0:18:40.156 --> 0:18:42.956 like it's like it should never work, it should never work. 0:18:42.996 --> 0:18:46.156 It's like if a rocket gets to space successfully, that's like, well, 0:18:46.196 --> 0:18:48.516 how does that even happen if you sat there and 0:18:48.556 --> 0:18:50.676 you wrote all of the things on a piece of 0:18:50.676 --> 0:18:53.516 paper that have to work every time, including things like 0:18:53.876 --> 0:18:56.916 weather and all the other constraints that have to be 0:18:56.956 --> 0:19:00.796 perfectly aligned. It's a minor miracle that a rocket ever launches, 0:19:00.916 --> 0:19:02.876 any rocket ever launches. And yet I mean, when I 0:19:02.996 --> 0:19:06.076 think about what your company is trying to do, am 0:19:06.076 --> 0:19:08.956 I right to think that that ultimately what you want 0:19:08.956 --> 0:19:10.956 to solve? Right? As I understand your company, you want, 0:19:10.996 --> 0:19:13.636 like going to space to be this boring, routine, cheap 0:19:13.756 --> 0:19:16.996 thing like whatever, sending something ups or something. I mean, 0:19:17.116 --> 0:19:19.996 is that a fair way to think about what you're 0:19:19.996 --> 0:19:23.196 trying to do? Yeah? I think I think, um, externally, 0:19:23.236 --> 0:19:27.196 at least it looking routine is what you want. You 0:19:27.236 --> 0:19:29.276 want need to think it's easy, and you to know 0:19:29.356 --> 0:19:32.556 that it's still hard. Well, the reality is it is. 0:19:32.956 --> 0:19:36.236 I mean, and I was, I was that young, bright 0:19:36.276 --> 0:19:38.716 eyed entrepreneur that would sit on all the launch panels 0:19:39.516 --> 0:19:43.236 with you know, with all the incumbent launch providers and say, oh, 0:19:43.316 --> 0:19:45.476 launch is going to be a commodity and it's and 0:19:45.756 --> 0:19:47.596 you just it's going to be ups and all the 0:19:47.596 --> 0:19:50.556 rest of it. The reality is, as we've talked about 0:19:50.596 --> 0:19:53.556 as launch is incredibly hard, and yeah, there's a bunch 0:19:53.596 --> 0:19:56.356 of things that can can make it easier. Um and 0:19:56.916 --> 0:19:59.596 you know, systems get better and better, but it always 0:19:59.836 --> 0:20:02.636 is an incredibly difficult technical feat. Do you think it 0:20:02.676 --> 0:20:05.036 will never be like sending a package UPS? Do you 0:20:05.036 --> 0:20:08.956 think it's just the laws of physics are so demand. 0:20:09.116 --> 0:20:10.876 I think it's so hard to get things to space 0:20:10.916 --> 0:20:13.476 that it just will never be this kind of Every 0:20:13.476 --> 0:20:15.396 week we're sending up a rocket. It's cheap and easy 0:20:15.396 --> 0:20:16.716 to come and get on board. You think that's just 0:20:16.796 --> 0:20:18.796 we're not going to get there now. I wouldn't say that, 0:20:18.996 --> 0:20:21.596 but I think for the end customer it probably feels 0:20:21.636 --> 0:20:24.836 like that. But behind the scenes, behind the scenes, UPS 0:20:24.876 --> 0:20:27.276 feels hard too. Right that they get all our packages 0:20:27.316 --> 0:20:30.036 here at Christmas, that's also miraculous, right, I don't think 0:20:30.036 --> 0:20:33.356 they'd say it's exactly Yeah. Yeah, So you start out 0:20:33.356 --> 0:20:37.796 with this idea of small rockets. There's just one big 0:20:37.836 --> 0:20:41.956 idea of small rocket. Now jump to whatever number of 0:20:42.036 --> 0:20:46.996 years later, you're doing big rockets, famous reversal, but also 0:20:47.596 --> 0:20:52.076 building spacecraft, satellites and little interplanetary probs. So now you're 0:20:52.156 --> 0:20:54.916 kind of trying to do sort of everything. I mean, 0:20:54.956 --> 0:20:58.276 it's that yeah, because I mean, if you if you 0:20:58.316 --> 0:21:01.556 just do launch, that's great, you solve launch, awesome, that's 0:21:01.596 --> 0:21:05.876