WEBVTT - Unpacking American Extremism 0:00:00.560 --> 0:00:00.840 Orlan. 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:04.240 Dear listener, it's Maria no Hossan. Now you know me 0:00:04.559 --> 0:00:07.400 as the host of this show, but I want you 0:00:07.440 --> 0:00:10.040 to know that I also co host In the Thick, 0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:13.920 which is our sister politics podcast here at Futuro Media. 0:00:14.000 --> 0:00:18.599 It's a show where we talk politics unfiltered. So as 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:21.120 we get out of the haze of the presidential election, 0:00:21.239 --> 0:00:24.840 we thought we'd bring you this special episode of In 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:29.040 the Thick for you, our dear Leatino USA listener. In 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.680 this episode, I speak with Imara Jones. She's a journalist 0:00:32.680 --> 0:00:36.880 and podcast host as well as the founder of Translash Media, 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:41.040 and we also are joined by a badass, the Washington 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:44.600 Post columnist Karen Atia. We're going to talk all about 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.360 what the Democratic Party got wrong, the nationwide shift to 0:00:48.440 --> 0:00:52.360 the right, how we understand this, what comes up, and 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:55.760 what comes next. So I want you to enjoy this episode, 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:58.960 and please, dear listener, subscribe to In the Thick wherever 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:06.800 you get your podcasts. Let's go to the tape, dear listener, 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.760 Welcome to In the Thick. Yes, I know, I know, 0:01:11.040 --> 0:01:13.920 but that's why we're here, because we're going to talk 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:17.320 about it. We're one week since this election, I'm joined 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:21.600 by two award winning journalists and it all stars. They're 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:24.240 going to help us navigate what we're figuring out, what 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:27.800 we're looking for, how we move forward. Joining us from Brooklyn, 0:01:27.840 --> 0:01:32.080 we have the founder of Translash, media journalist and podcast host, 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:36.520 yes Imaida Jones back on the show. Welcome back, Imada. 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:37.360 Thank you, thank you so much. 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:42.000 And joining us from Dallas, Texas, Washington Post opinions columnist 0:01:42.080 --> 0:01:42.880 Karen Attia. 0:01:43.560 --> 0:01:45.080 Karen, great to have you on the show. 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.560 Thanks for having me, Maria, good to be here. 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:59.360 This is politics unfiltered. Let's get into it, Karen, Imaa. 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:02.640 It's been just over a week since Donald Trump's victory. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:06.200 It's a night that sparked a historic right word shift 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:09.640 in our country. The election results gave us this new 0:02:09.639 --> 0:02:14.000 insight into a changing American political landscape right and we're 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.639 all sitting with it and taking it in. Republicans, well, 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:20.480 they had a sweeping victory. It stretched from rural America 0:02:20.560 --> 0:02:24.960 into urban centers, even one's long thought to be Democratic strongholds, 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:29.360 even in Manhattan, for God's sakes, election night also marked 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:32.560 a historic moment of failure for the Democratic Party. So 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:33.960 let's look at some numbers. 0:02:34.000 --> 0:02:34.200 Here. 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:42.320 Republicans won a bigger share of votes in every state 0:02:42.360 --> 0:02:44.760 in twenty twenty four than they did in twenty twenty, 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:48.799 and won every single swing state. Exit polls showed that 0:02:48.880 --> 0:02:52.120 forty six percent of Latinos forty six percent of all 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:57.560 Latinos voted for Trump, and Latino men specifically, they voted 0:02:57.560 --> 0:03:01.359 at a rate of fifty five percent, and that's compared 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:06.040 to just thirty six percent of Latino male voters for 0:03:06.160 --> 0:03:10.600 Trump in twenty twenty. Vice President Harris received two million 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:16.200 fewer votes than Biden did. In twenty twenty, Harris only 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.880 held an eight point margin among women voters, the Democrats 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.600 smallest margin since two thousand and four. And this despite 0:03:23.600 --> 0:03:26.239 the fact that ninety one percent of Black women voted 0:03:26.240 --> 0:03:30.079 for Harris, while fifty three percent of white women voted 0:03:30.080 --> 0:03:34.360 for Trump. A majority of white women voted. 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:34.920 For Donald Trump. 0:03:40.680 --> 0:03:43.280 For many of us on this podcast, this is a 0:03:43.360 --> 0:03:47.480 victory that has really deep implications in terms of our 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:49.560 understanding of the country that we live in and how 0:03:49.600 --> 0:03:52.600 we move forward. You know, I mean, we're all feeling it. 0:03:53.040 --> 0:03:57.040 So very first thing is a temperature check. So it's 0:03:57.040 --> 0:04:01.240 how you're feeling today, Karen, your temperature check what's your 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:02.120 emotional state. 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:04.920 Honestly, I've been spending the last couple of days, first 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:11.520 of all, consciously uncoupling from Twitter slash x that healscape 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:13.520 of a site, and I think I've just been in 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:15.880 a mindset. 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.720 Of being extremely upset. 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:20.720 With how the election turned out, but not surprised. I'm 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.800 joining y'all from Texas, right and I'm back here when 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:27.160 week after the election. In so many ways, I'm reminded 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.919 of the things that I saw here in the years 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:33.880 that I was living here before this year, So I'm 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:36.480 not entirely shocked at the direction this country is going. 0:04:36.920 --> 0:04:38.880 I guess for me personally, I'm just going to be 0:04:39.000 --> 0:04:40.360 using a lot of this time. 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.960 To really deeply reflect and spend a lot more time 0:04:42.960 --> 0:04:46.400 in the gym, because I think what is happening now 0:04:46.480 --> 0:04:51.720 is a bigger energetic vibe shift that is bigger than 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:57.200 the election, and that goes to an identity shift, an 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:01.120 identity crisis for America. So as we're figuring that out, 0:05:01.240 --> 0:05:04.520 I think it's time to just really get grounded in community, 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:09.080 spirituality and keeping ourselves healthy and finding joy where we 0:05:09.120 --> 0:05:10.960 can as we navigate. 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:16.359 This preach and Karen and I our Instagram workout admirers. 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:18.599 MY dream is to one day work out with you 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.160 like that's going. I'm gonna make that will happen. I'm 0:05:21.160 --> 0:05:24.080 gonna make that happen in twenty twenty five. Emata your 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:25.280 temperature check my dear. 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:28.960 So if I was a thermometer, I think I would 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:32.600 be running slightly hot today when most of last week 0:05:32.640 --> 0:05:35.159 I was pretty pretty even caln. 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:38.680 I think that more than anything, I. 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:46.640 Feel annoyed by the mad scramble that's happening when some 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:52.480 of us have been reporting counseling, advising warning for years 0:05:53.040 --> 0:05:57.880 and haven't been heard like we should have been, and 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.560 then now the phone is ringing off the hook, and 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:06.120 that is particularly irritating. I would also say that I 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:12.520 am deeply It's okay, honey, Yeah, I would say that 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:18.800 I am deeply enraged. I think it's quiet rage, though 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:24.400 that's what it is. At what is happening in the 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:30.560 mainstream press. I think the inability to hold white people 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:35.200 accountable for white people's actions and choices and to instead 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:40.120 say that, for example, Kambla Harris lost because of trans people, 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:47.560 and also the rush even amongst places that are supposedly 0:06:47.640 --> 0:06:53.880 more open to conversation amongst Democrats to fall in line 0:06:55.560 --> 0:07:03.320 with the looming authoritarian regime, I think means that there's 0:07:03.400 --> 0:07:07.240 just going to be to Karen's point, and thank god 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.720 for Karen's writing in the post. By the way, you 0:07:10.800 --> 0:07:13.840 know it's going to be a massive realignment. And I 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:15.760 think in every single way. 0:07:16.040 --> 0:07:19.040 I'm all of that. You know, for me, the worst 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.720 points right, It's just like you devoted your career to 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:27.080 trying to give a community a complexity that would be 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:31.239 Latinos in general, Like they're complex, you can't count on them, 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.040 et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, not being heard right, 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:36.400 always being criticized by the right and the left. But 0:07:36.440 --> 0:07:39.119 you know that is what it is. On the issue 0:07:39.120 --> 0:07:42.720 of immigration, just like seeing this horror play out, which 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.920 is like, this is your worst fucking nightmare in the world. 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:49.240 It's the reason why your father. 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:52.200 Didn't want to come to this country, right damn it 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:53.760 did want to cry. 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.960 But between like that, and. 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:01.640 Also I'm just like, Okay, put on your big girl 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.320 boots and what were you going to do in the 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.600 upcoming four years if Kamala Harris had one? Were you 0:08:08.720 --> 0:08:13.480 just going to be like lounging different context because we 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:18.280 wouldn't feel like we're moving into authoritarianism, fascism, outright racism, 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:23.040 gestapo tactics, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm also not 0:08:23.360 --> 0:08:27.160 going to lay down. I'm just not I'm like, okay, here, 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.200 I am, I'm back. I'm waking up at six, working out, 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:36.480 eating healthy, giving myself the pause one hundred percent, but 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:37.280 then getting ready. 0:08:37.320 --> 0:08:37.600 All right. 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:40.559 I'm so glad. I'm so glad that we had that 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.040 moment to just unleash. And I think the one thing 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.080 that I'm very uncomfortable it is the amount of anger 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:46.840 and what we're going to do with that, and certainly 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.200 for black women to be pissed off as hell with 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.800 everyone in the entire country and world. 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:57.280 Well, black women have to save ourselves. Eat first and foremost, 0:08:57.679 --> 0:09:00.360 because no one cares about black women like other women. 0:09:00.480 --> 0:09:01.360 Let's just be honest. 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:07.199 Yeah, So that's first and foremost, and yeah, everyone else 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:08.160 will have to figure it out. 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:09.400 And that's where we are. 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:12.920 You know, thank you for producing this insanity, voters of 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:16.120 the United States of America. But we are here, and 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:20.120 we want black women to take care of themselves, especially 0:09:20.160 --> 0:09:22.719 in this moment. First, I just want to ask the 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:25.160 both of you if you can break down how you 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:31.280 understand this victory was his campaigning effective in terms of 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.520 speaking to an American electorate. Let's start with you, Karen, 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:35.840 and then we'll hear from you Emeta. 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:37.040 Yeah. 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:39.920 I think a lot, a lot, a lot of things 0:09:40.040 --> 0:09:42.280 are at play, right, And I have to keep in 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:47.400 mind Trump for a lot of people, including you know, 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:51.240 I have to say I have Trump supporters even in 0:09:51.320 --> 0:09:52.360 my family who. 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.080 Are black and live in Texas. 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:54.959 Just so we're clear. 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:59.760 Core wrets and immigrants, So okay. I think for me, 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:03.600 my own sort of lived experience defies a lot of 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:07.800 the perhaps myths, particularly that liberals have tended to have 0:10:08.000 --> 0:10:12.520 about about immigrants and about sort of the black and 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:17.080 browning of America, that it would automatically lead to this 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:20.880 conclusion that this would be bad for Republicans, right, And 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:24.720 I have to keep in mind that Trump has been 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:28.839 in my life as a cultural figure pretty much ever 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.760 since I was born, ever since, like I don't know, 0:10:31.760 --> 0:10:34.520 in the nineteen nineties, Home alone and Trump in the 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:38.840 cultural zeitgeist has represented to a lot of people this 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:44.960 idea of power, money, success, and frankly, what it means 0:10:44.960 --> 0:10:49.240 to be a completely free man, free of shame, free 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:55.000 of the shackles of poverty. And he's less a candidate 0:10:55.720 --> 0:11:00.360 than this aspirational almost frankly, and I know we don't 0:11:00.400 --> 0:11:03.000 like to talk about it, but almost a religious figure. 0:11:03.960 --> 0:11:07.160 And the times that I've been in the same room 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.920 with him or same space, whether it's been at the 0:11:11.040 --> 0:11:14.560 RNC in Cleveland in twenty sixteen or meeting him as 0:11:14.600 --> 0:11:18.360 part of the editorial board in the Washington Post or 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:22.600 at NYBJ the National Association of Journalists this year, which 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:27.079 I decided to resign from after the decision to invite 0:11:27.120 --> 0:11:31.240 him to speak. And what people don't understand is he 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:39.520 has this sort of presence and power and charisma that 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:43.240 he plays this character as somebody who grew up watching 0:11:43.720 --> 0:11:46.240 Monday Night Wrestling, where Trump was also on there. 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:49.719 He is extremely. 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:52.560 Good at quote unquote, as you say, playing the heel right, 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:57.240 and America loves the heel, loves a figure that is 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.240 willing to be the underdog in a sense, take on 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.679 the power establishment and act on instinct and do what 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:05.199 he wants. 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:07.080 He's a bully, but people like it. 0:12:08.280 --> 0:12:11.880 Who knows, maybe I'm like burying a lot of my 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.600 feelings and anger and rage, and please believe, I'm not 0:12:14.600 --> 0:12:17.960 trying to excuse people who buy into this, but I 0:12:18.200 --> 0:12:22.239 get it. And when I look at this election outcome, 0:12:22.920 --> 0:12:26.080 even when I look at how simple his slogan was, 0:12:26.120 --> 0:12:28.600 make America great Again, how simple it was for people 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.520 to signal belonging to a community. 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:33.680 Around him wearing those red hats. 0:12:33.720 --> 0:12:37.880 The red hat has become a signifier, right, a community 0:12:38.440 --> 0:12:42.400 builder in a way for people, and people both feel 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:48.680 empowered by him and yet also completely the underdog, victimized 0:12:48.720 --> 0:12:52.480 by the elites, by the media, when really these are 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.280 also people struggling under the economy who feel that it's 0:12:56.320 --> 0:13:00.959 okay to take out that anger, those feelings on minorities, 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:03.160 on women, on trans people. 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:07.000 There's a lot of factors. I also point back to just. 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:11.000 The rise of right wing media and radio and right 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:15.640 male anger is this seductive thing here in this country. 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:21.120 The fact that the right wing has captured combat sports UFC, 0:13:21.679 --> 0:13:23.640 pro wrestling, which is where a lot of. 0:13:24.440 --> 0:13:26.160 Men, young men, young white men. 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.560 Form communities, form this idol worship. It makes a lot 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.800 of intuitive sense to me. That's the only way I 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:33.200 can put it. I'm not saying it's right. 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:36.800 So the Democrats then just a quick take, Karen on 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:39.360 the Democrats and on how you see their role. 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:44.360 I think the Democrats suffer from still suffer from assuming 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:49.800 that people will be swayed by facts and policy by 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:54.240 the head in some ways. And the Republicans have figured 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:59.080 out how to appeal to something in the bone spirit 0:13:59.840 --> 0:14:02.880 of people, even if it's not it. And I think 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:06.040 the Democrats kind of swinging back and forth. It's like, 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.920 are you the party of civil rights and peace and 0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:14.359 diplomacy or are you the party of endless warm bombing children. 0:14:14.360 --> 0:14:16.760 In Gaza Imada? Your take on? 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.160 The Democrats lost this and the Republicans want it. What's 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:20.880 the takeaway? 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:29.440 This election revealed the deep, unresolved character flaw that haunted 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:36.080 America from its inception, the unfinished business of dealing with 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:39.640 the tension of being birthed as a slave republic, and 0:14:39.680 --> 0:14:43.960 the fundamental aspect of the slave republic is this notion 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:48.520 that the way that you get free is by denying 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:53.920 other people their freedom, that you can destroy others at 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.440 will in order to achieve your means and your goals, 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:02.680 and that that is especially and only true for people 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:08.160 who are white. And anytime America in its history has 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:13.800 come close to burying that idea, not the reality. 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:15.120 But even the idea. 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:23.280 The response has been ferocious and extreme, and just to 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.240 bring that forward so that we don't think that this is, 0:15:26.560 --> 0:15:27.680 you know, ancient history. 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:28.560 You know. 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.960 Professor Carol Anderson from Emmer University, in her book White 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:38.200 Rage shows how every single year that Barack Obama was 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.840 in office, racist sentiment and then timpathy in the United 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:47.240 States increased, which means that just the sight of a 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.800 black man and a black family occupying the highest office 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:59.600 in the land unearthed the reality of the ugly beast 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.520 that is literally right below the soil in the country. 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:10.600 So I think Donald Trump at his core understands that 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.680 that's how he was raised by his dad, and the 0:16:13.720 --> 0:16:17.280 fact that he is a master marketer and brander, and 0:16:17.320 --> 0:16:20.120 the fact that he lives at a time when, as 0:16:20.200 --> 0:16:23.520 Christaph Friedland said in her book Plutocrats, that we see 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.960 CEOs as the hero of our time. Corresponding with what 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:30.600 Karen said, I think is almost a toxic and irresistible 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:31.440 mix in America. 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:33.080 It's catnip. 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:38.880 And you put that person against a black woman who 0:16:38.960 --> 0:16:41.440 people do not want to see on high. 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:42.920 People do not want. 0:16:42.760 --> 0:16:45.920 To wake up every day and see a black woman 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.080 who is powerful and grounded be commander in chief. 0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:52.160 Regardless of her policies. 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.360 By the way, we all know that President Obama's policies 0:16:55.360 --> 0:17:00.560 were fairly conservative, ironically, so this isn't about the policy content. 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.359 This is really a battle over the ideas and the 0:17:05.400 --> 0:17:10.960 fundamental character of the country. And the nation failed its 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:11.680 character test. 0:17:24.400 --> 0:17:26.640 So my thoughts and I have a lot on what 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:31.080 the Republicans did and the Democrats, right, So the Republicans again, 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.160 they have a clear message, it's not just make America 0:17:34.200 --> 0:17:37.280 great again, it's build the wall, and build the wall 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.440 means stop it all. Stop the immigrants, stop the refugees, 0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:45.879 stop people speaking Spanish, stop immigrants from moving into my community, 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:51.840 stop black people from being out there marching, stop trans people, 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:56.240 stop Gabe, Like build the wall, I want to be 0:17:56.240 --> 0:17:59.439 behind my wall. The horror is that the level of 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:02.800 missing from and disinformation, which we've reported about at Nauseam 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:06.240 and please listen to our work on Latino USA, is that, 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.600 you know, witnessing how latinos and latin has actually bought 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.239 into I'm going to vote for a guy that's going 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.600 to start mass deportation. But speaking of the Democrats, You know, 0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:19.119 people get very upset still when I criticize the Democrats 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.280 because they just think I'm a Trump supporter, and I'm 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.520 just like, no, if they had listened, what I was 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:29.320 trying to say was you need to give a different narrative. 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:33.560 You cannot out Trump Trump on the issue of immigration 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.920 and what's happening at the border. You need to take 0:18:36.960 --> 0:18:40.399 a completely different take on this. And in terms of 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:43.399 the economy, the same thing you could have said, the 0:18:43.400 --> 0:18:47.040 reason why economic growth is happening is because we have 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:51.359 immigrants here. They were scared and they fell into you 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:53.360 know what's easiest for them, which is, well, what does 0:18:53.400 --> 0:18:57.159 the white man say. What is the straight white male, 0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:03.880 heterosexual Ivy League educated policy analyst, public relations, marketing executive, 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:05.600 what does he say? 0:19:06.160 --> 0:19:07.040 That's what we're going to do. 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:07.919 So. 0:19:08.240 --> 0:19:12.679 Imara, you are the host of several podcasts. You also 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:17.400 just finished up season three of your investigative podcast it's 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:22.600 called The Anti Trans Hate Machine, and this season your 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:27.360 investigation focused on the links between the rise of political 0:19:27.440 --> 0:19:32.720 violence in the United States, far right paramilitary groups and 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:38.760 anti trans hate. Imara, at this point, what does this 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.119 victory mean for the trans community? 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:42.120 One? 0:19:42.240 --> 0:19:45.359 What is the threat and how do we respond to it? 0:19:45.440 --> 0:19:47.720 And then how do you see this threat as a 0:19:47.760 --> 0:19:50.359 manifestation of a threat on democracy based on the backs 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:51.119 of trans people. 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:55.480 I think that the combination of Donald Trump and the 0:19:55.480 --> 0:19:58.400 fact that the largest single at by the entire campaign 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:01.080 nearly a quarter of a billion dollars and anti transads 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:03.720 the biggest advice. They spent more money on that than 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:08.000 on anything else with prospective advertising, the failure of the 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:12.080 Democratic Party to respond, and the way in which Democrats 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.040 and the mainstream media have acted in the wake of 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.240 the loss by saying that it was trans people's fault, 0:20:17.760 --> 0:20:24.520 telegraphs to Donald Trump that his desire to put trans 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:29.479 people on the day one target list means that it 0:20:29.520 --> 0:20:32.640 will be open season on trans people on day one, 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:38.760 alongside immigrants. The entire rationale for the man's campaign was 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:42.920 that he would go after immigrants and trans people literally 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:46.560 the whole campaign, and the country said damn right, we will. 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:50.480 Stop the indoctrination of your children and we will not 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:54.280 let them try to change your kid's gender. 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.280 So I think that what it means is there's going 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:02.800 to be a slew of anti trans administrative actions on 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:06.080 day one. I think the administrative agencies are going to 0:21:06.119 --> 0:21:10.000 go right to work to try to erase trans people 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:15.800 from an entire slew of equal protections, including healthcare and housing, employment. 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.080 They can't really do that because there's a Supreme Court case, 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.480 the boss Dot case, which ruled that trans people can't 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:23.800 be discriminated against. But they can just stop enforcing the 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:27.639 law correct. And I think trans people are organizing and responding, 0:21:27.760 --> 0:21:30.760 relying on community. I mean, I think that I've been 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:36.080 warning through four years of reporting. Now this issue was 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.840 teed up by the Christian nationalist movement for the past 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:42.199 ten years to work exactly how it worked in this election, 0:21:42.280 --> 0:21:44.560 and it did. They know that it works in really 0:21:44.560 --> 0:21:47.919 close elections. They've been teeing up this conversation through an 0:21:48.080 --> 0:21:51.480 entire apparatus. They've spent hundreds of millions of dollars on 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:54.760 it to bring us to this point. And their strategy 0:21:54.800 --> 0:21:57.639 worked and paid off. And so now we are about 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:01.800 to usher in authoritarianism in the United States and see 0:22:01.840 --> 0:22:06.000 mass pain like no one alive has witnessed on this scale, 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:14.359 undoubtedly mass civil instability and unrest because this operation figured 0:22:14.359 --> 0:22:19.119 out how to use trans people and trans issues over 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.280 the past decade to usher in authoritarianism. 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:26.879 So, Karen, you know we're hearing about this specificity of 0:22:26.920 --> 0:22:29.639 the attacks on the trans community and how much fear 0:22:29.680 --> 0:22:33.360 there is there. You know, you write for the Washington Post, right, 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:36.879 it's all about Washington politics. What do you think this 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:39.879 victory means for the future of our democracy? 0:22:40.880 --> 0:22:44.399 Yeah, Look, I think this country is a young democracy. 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:49.280 I don't think a full democracy is anything but a 0:22:49.320 --> 0:22:56.280 country that gives protections and voice to the most marginalized. 0:22:56.600 --> 0:22:59.320 I mean, I think you know, as a journalist, we're 0:22:59.359 --> 0:23:06.480 seeing definite attacks on the press, We're seeing attacks on organizers. 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:10.760 I think it's not a coincidence to me that after 0:23:11.119 --> 0:23:16.840 platforms like Twitter were so instrumental in making so many 0:23:16.840 --> 0:23:21.600 of these issues, whether it was racism, police brutality, me too, 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:27.439 so visible and forcing those issues of America not holding 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:30.879 up to its promise for black people, for women, for 0:23:31.000 --> 0:23:31.679 trans people. 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:33.600 To me, it's not a. 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:39.760 Surprise that the tech brologarchs came in bought up these platforms. 0:23:40.080 --> 0:23:42.520 We now have zucker Birds saying we're not going to 0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:47.119 do politics, We're not going to do news. And to me, 0:23:47.680 --> 0:23:50.359 it is also I think this question, you know, not 0:23:50.520 --> 0:23:54.200 just of our elected officials, but again of our ruling class, 0:23:54.240 --> 0:23:58.280 which yes includes the Elon Musk, the Peter Thiels, the 0:23:58.359 --> 0:24:03.359 Mark Zuckerberds, who have an insane amount of unaccountable power 0:24:04.240 --> 0:24:06.879 over what we see, over what we consume, over what 0:24:06.960 --> 0:24:10.359 we believe to be real, who have leaned to the right, 0:24:10.760 --> 0:24:13.320 who have, I mean, Elon tried to tilt this election 0:24:13.560 --> 0:24:16.440 in favor of Trump, And I think this is going 0:24:16.480 --> 0:24:19.160 to be something that we're going to have to really 0:24:19.200 --> 0:24:22.000 figure out and grapple with as we're moving in this 0:24:22.160 --> 0:24:26.240 increasingly mediated space. I mean, what does it mean for 0:24:27.200 --> 0:24:31.200 a handful of men of white men, a couple of 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:34.840 South African immigrants who have decided that they want to 0:24:35.000 --> 0:24:40.480 reshape this country into a country that silences the press, 0:24:40.880 --> 0:24:44.240 that wants to elevate high testosterone. 0:24:43.320 --> 0:24:45.639 Men, white men into power. 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:48.520 Right, when I look at democracy, it's not just about 0:24:48.640 --> 0:24:53.240 elected officials, but it's about the class of wealthy, ultra 0:24:53.359 --> 0:24:58.959 rich billionaires that we have actively working with the fascist 0:24:59.160 --> 0:25:03.879 government and org caving. So what does it mean for 0:25:04.080 --> 0:25:18.199 us to fight back against that. There's a lot of 0:25:18.240 --> 0:25:23.400 news deserts right. This media environment is now less diverse 0:25:23.440 --> 0:25:25.439