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Speaker 1: Body backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. It's a given that

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Speaker 1: any mother daughter relationship is going to have good days

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Speaker 1: and bad days, ups and downs throughout their life together.

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Speaker 1: But what would drive a daughter dinner to an agreement

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Speaker 1: the young man that she has supposedly fallen in love

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Speaker 1: with fly down to Bolly a sixteen hour flight from

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Speaker 1: l A, have that young man enter into a hotel room,

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Speaker 1: pick up a large decorative bowl and beat that young

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Speaker 1: woman's mother into a bolivion. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this his body bags back with me again today is

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Speaker 1: my good friend Jackie Howard, Executive producer of Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Jackie, what do we have on this case?

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Speaker 1: As you said, Joe, Heather Mac was serving a sentence

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Speaker 1: in Bolly for her part in the death of her mother.

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Speaker 1: Mac was prosecuted and convicted in Indonesia over the killing

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Speaker 1: of Sheila von Wiss Mac at the St. Regis Molly Resort.

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Speaker 1: After serving seven of her ten years sentence, she was

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Speaker 1: expelled from the country. Upon her release, she was sent

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Speaker 1: back to the US along with her daughter. Mac was

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Speaker 1: pregnant at the time of this murder. Heather Mac and

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Speaker 1: her daughter landed at an airport in Chicago at O'Hare International,

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Speaker 1: and at that moment she was arrested by the FBI

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Speaker 1: on charges of conspiracy to kill in a foreign country,

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Speaker 1: conspiracy to commit a foreign murder of the U s Now,

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Speaker 1: and obstruction. Now, Heather mac has pleaded not guilty to

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Speaker 1: all of those charges. But Joe, as you mentioned going in,

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Speaker 1: the relationship between Heather Mack and her mother was contentious

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Speaker 1: to say the least. We do know that in her

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Speaker 1: younger days, the relationship between Heather and her mother was

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Speaker 1: very volatile. Police were called to their home more than

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Speaker 1: eighty times. In fact, we know that according to statements

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Speaker 1: made to the police, Sheila would say that Heather would

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Speaker 1: hit her and bite her. She even pushed her in

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Speaker 1: the bathroom so hard one time that Sheila fell and

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Speaker 1: broke her arm. What kind of damage is that gonna do, Joe?

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Speaker 1: Are injuries like that bumps and bruises? Are they going

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Speaker 1: to leave any lasting images? Obviously the broken bone? Would?

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Speaker 1: You know? Over a period of time, people are subjected

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Speaker 1: to ongoing abuse. And make no mistake, this is ongoing abuse,

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Speaker 1: is familial abuse. It does just have to be between

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Speaker 1: a husband or a wife, or you know, a child

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Speaker 1: and a parent. It can Uh, it doesn't just have

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Speaker 1: to be between a parent and a young child. Actually

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Speaker 1: the reverse can happen. You can have older children that

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Speaker 1: will abuse their their parents. And you know, in cases

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Speaker 1: like this, where people are sustaining ongoing trauma throughout their life,

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Speaker 1: you'll have external scars that occur, say, for instance, if

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Speaker 1: they've been lacerated on the head somehow, where they've got

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Speaker 1: these blunt force traumas they've bumped into things like the toilet,

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Speaker 1: maybe the side of the tub or even a table,

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Speaker 1: or if they've been struck by something. Uh, And you know,

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Speaker 1: you begin to think about also these fractures that the

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Speaker 1: mother had sustained in her life. You know, I've seen

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Speaker 1: any number of cases over the years with ongoing abuse

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Speaker 1: where you take an X ray of a body and

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Speaker 1: you can actually see it present these old, healed fractures,

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Speaker 1: and they'll they'll get these kind of nodular appearances to them,

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Speaker 1: particularly if they go unreported, Jackie, If if the family

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to make a scene about it, if they

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Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it relative to any of

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Speaker 1: the authorities, sometimes they will just allow these things to

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Speaker 1: heal on their own, and no one says anything else.

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Speaker 1: And here's the problem. If it happens once, it will

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Speaker 1: happen over and over and over again. And generally the

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Speaker 1: level of of trauma increases with each one of these

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Speaker 1: events because the attacker feels very, very comfortable in doing this.

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Speaker 1: It's not just about hurling verbal assaults on someone. You

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Speaker 1: start to get into these physical, uh physical confrontations, and

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Speaker 1: the attacker always gains the upper hand because you know what,

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Speaker 1: They know that their victim is fearful of them. You're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right, Joe, We do know that she Livon Wi

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Speaker 1: Smack had told friends and family that in the past

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Speaker 1: she had been afraid of her daughter, and this trip

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Speaker 1: to Bolly was an attempt to renew their relationship. The

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Speaker 1: mother and daughter had been having trouble because she the mother,

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Speaker 1: did not approve of the current relationship that Mac was in.

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Speaker 1: She was dating Tommy Schaeffer. Now, what Sheila von Wissmack

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Speaker 1: did not know was that Heather had used her mother's

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Speaker 1: credit card to buy Tommy an airplane ticket through Bali,

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Speaker 1: a twelve thousand dollar purchase. Just ten hours after he arrived.

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Speaker 1: Sheila von Wiss Mac was dead. So he was seen

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Speaker 1: on the video camera coming into the room with the

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Speaker 1: decorative bull that you were mentioning tucked up under his shirt.

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Speaker 1: So right away we see that something is planned, Joe.

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Speaker 1: You know, Jackie, it is planned. But you know, one

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Speaker 1: of the things I was thinking about in this case,

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Speaker 1: and I've seen it in a few other cases over

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Speaker 1: the course of my career, is it sometimes the weapons

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Speaker 1: that are perpetrator chooses, or what we referred to as

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Speaker 1: weapons of convenience or weapons of opportunity. You've got a

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Speaker 1: young man that, as you had mentioned, had made this

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Speaker 1: lengthy flight, very expensive flight now there to boy and

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Speaker 1: at some point in time we know that Heather got

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Speaker 1: in contact with this kid while he was in the

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Speaker 1: hotel and said, bring something heavy. What does that mean, Well,

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Speaker 1: it can be implied at least that you're looking for

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Speaker 1: an object to use to bludge in somebody with, and

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Speaker 1: so that our listeners understand what this means. When when

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Speaker 1: we hear about a term of bludgeoning, most of the

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Speaker 1: time that means that it's a heavy object that someone

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Speaker 1: picks up and utilizes for the express purpose of beating someone,

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Speaker 1: inflicting what we refer to as blunt force trauma. And

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Speaker 1: in this case, boy, did the mother ever sustain uh

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Speaker 1: extensive trauma? And I can get into that, but what's

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Speaker 1: what's very important here is that the object itself, it's

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Speaker 1: not like a serial bowl. Okay, think of a bowl

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Speaker 1: that has been identified as a decorative ball. This this

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Speaker 1: bowl is probably uh not inexpensive. It's something that is

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Speaker 1: owned by the hotel. It's high quality. And guess what

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Speaker 1: the glass surface on this thing is probably inches, not

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Speaker 1: an inch, but probably inches thick, particularly down at the

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Speaker 1: dome of it. So someone is going to use a

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Speaker 1: bowl in order to beat someone with just imagine gripping

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Speaker 1: the lip of the bowl, okay, and you're gonna turn

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Speaker 1: it over almost like you're you're holding a helmet in

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Speaker 1: your hand, only the dome of a helmet is going

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Speaker 1: to be that that's going to be the business end.

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Speaker 1: That's the end that's actually going to make contact with

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Speaker 1: the tissue with the bone, and it's going to be

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Speaker 1: driven into this individual's body. So, Joe, does it take

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Speaker 1: necessarily a heavy object to do something like this or

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Speaker 1: is it the force that the person that's using it

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Speaker 1: is wielding that's going to do the damage. Which is

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Speaker 1: it is that the heavy object or the force in general.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's a combination of both, Jackie and and

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Speaker 1: you know when you pick up a bowl like this,

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Speaker 1: or any hot, heavy object, you have to think about

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Speaker 1: the energy that's being transferred. If you're gonna beat somebody

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Speaker 1: from the hips of the perpetrator to the shoulder extending

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Speaker 1: out to the arm, and the further way you hold

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Speaker 1: this thing at its distal point in the individual's arm,

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Speaker 1: you get this tremendous amount of velocity that is generated

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Speaker 1: as those hips and the shoulder go in to this motion,

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Speaker 1: and it's a downward kind of a downward event. I

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Speaker 1: suspect that they had this poor woman on the floor

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Speaker 1: and as they swing this thing down, all of that

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Speaker 1: energy is transferring to like I said, this rather robust,

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Speaker 1: heavy bowl. It's being driven into her skull. And let

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Speaker 1: me tell you something. The damage that was involved, and

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Speaker 1: this is solid, Jackie, is unlike anything that you normally see.

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Speaker 1: Was a level of verocity to this that we can't

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Speaker 1: really describe without you know, being able to physically be

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Speaker 1: there and see it. But let me tell you what

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Speaker 1: had happened. If if folks at home will essentially touch

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Speaker 1: the area beneath both of your eyes and you fill

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Speaker 1: those bony structures. Those are called a suborbital rims that

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Speaker 1: that's that goes into the orbits that the eyes actually

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Speaker 1: fit into the sockets, and then you have the bony

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Speaker 1: prominence of the nose. Well, all of that, all of

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Speaker 1: that was fractured because poor woman was literally beaten to death.

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Speaker 1: We use that term a lot in in in our

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Speaker 1: world the true crime, but in this case, it's absolutely

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Speaker 1: the truth. Beaten to death. Joe, can we explain what

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Speaker 1: that is because there's some things that we find out

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Speaker 1: about this case with Sheila von wie Smack. You were

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Speaker 1: talking about the fractures in her face and that in

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Speaker 1: itself led to bleeding, which led to some other issues.

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Speaker 1: So let's first explain what it means to be beaten

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Speaker 1: to death and then talk about what resulted from the

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Speaker 1: damage that was done to her head. In this particular case,

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Speaker 1: what we're looking at is, you know, her facial bones

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Speaker 1: were actually fractured. And you know, when when we touch

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Speaker 1: our face, we think about you know, you touch beneath

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Speaker 1: your eyes and you can feel the base of your

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Speaker 1: eye sockets down there. You can also feel your nose

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Speaker 1: and maybe your nose feels rather firm. Maybe the frontal

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Speaker 1: bone of of your skull, that's that leading that leading

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Speaker 1: bone that comprises your forehead. Essentially, it feels robust, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: But once you begin to strike those areas and a core.

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Speaker 1: She was struck multiple times with this heavy decorative bowl.

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Speaker 1: It's those little bones that dwell behind that area. You

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Speaker 1: know what's really fascinating. When you do an autopsy on

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Speaker 1: an individual, and we literally do take off the skull

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Speaker 1: cap at autopsy to take out the brain, we have

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Speaker 1: to examine the interior of the skull. Did you know

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Speaker 1: that you can actually take a flashlight and place it,

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Speaker 1: turn it and turn it on, and place it up

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Speaker 1: to the eye, to the eye area of a deceased individual,

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Speaker 1: and you can see that light shining through the floor

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Speaker 1: of the skull if you will. That's how thin those

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Speaker 1: bones are. I want all of our listeners to think

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Speaker 1: about this. That bone, that bone is actually about the

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Speaker 1: thickness of an eggshell. And you get into the nose,

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Speaker 1: those bones are very very fragile as well, and so

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Speaker 1: those have all been fractured. In addition to that, this

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Speaker 1: poor woman has got a fractured vertebra, and she's got

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Speaker 1: other insulted areas all round the circumference of her skull.

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Speaker 1: So you've got an event where this woman is not

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Speaker 1: just being struck in the face, she's actually being struck

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Speaker 1: in the rear, on the sides and on top of

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Speaker 1: her head as well. You know, when you're actually beaten

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Speaker 1: to death. This is what we mean by bludgeon and

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Speaker 1: it's grotesque. And what you're talking about is it's massive

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Speaker 1: trauma where not only do you have multiple massive fracturing,

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Speaker 1: but you've got what are called micro fractures all through

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Speaker 1: the body. That eggshell thickness bone that we're referring to

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Speaker 1: like the surface of the interior floor of the skull,

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Speaker 1: if you will, and all of the sinus regions. Those

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Speaker 1: little bones literally come apart, just like an eggshell fragment,

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Speaker 1: and so not only fragmenting the bone itself, but you know,

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Speaker 1: there are these little tiny holes in the bone that

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Speaker 1: are actually called for rayman and that's that's where the

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Speaker 1: vessels run up through. So every time you smash one

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Speaker 1: of these bones, you actually clip these vessels and the

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Speaker 1: individual begins to bleed out internally. Those little vessels are

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Speaker 1: all clipped, not to mention the major ones that are

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Speaker 1: supplying the brain itself. So you're dealing with massive fracturing.

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Speaker 1: And then the brain begins to swell because it's becoming

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Speaker 1: engorged with blood. The brain is very fragile, and as

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Speaker 1: it begins to engorge, it begins to swell and it

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Speaker 1: can't function. It can't function at all. And so when

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Speaker 1: we talk about things like being beaten to death or

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Speaker 1: bludge and to death, just think of it in this

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Speaker 1: sense that it is in fact massive massive trauma. So

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Speaker 1: along with what you're saying there, Joe, we know that

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Speaker 1: when you have that kind of damage, uh, tissue tearing,

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Speaker 1: bone fracturing, the bones are gonna damage the tissues inside

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Speaker 1: and as you said, we have bleeding. This led to

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Speaker 1: a major finding for Sheila von White Smack, you know,

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Speaker 1: Jackie did. And when I read this, I remember covering

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Speaker 1: this case and when I first read it, I was

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Speaker 1: reflecting on this because not only did the pathologist rule

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Speaker 1: his death as massive blunt force trauma, the real kicker

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Speaker 1: here is that this is an asphyxial death. And you think,

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Speaker 1: you know, most of the time we talked about its

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Speaker 1: fixial death, we think about people that are being strangled

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Speaker 1: or smothered or choked or you know or you know,

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Speaker 1: strangled say for instance, with a cord or rope, or

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Speaker 1: maybe somebody's bare hands. Not not in this case. You

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Speaker 1: know what this actually turned out to be, Jackie, is

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Speaker 1: that you remember all those little bones and the blood

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Speaker 1: that I was talking about that are fractured away within uh,

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Speaker 1: within the context of the sinuses, those little bones as

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Speaker 1: she's as she is laying there and she's gasping for breath,

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Speaker 1: gasping for her life. She's inhalating, inhalating all of this

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Speaker 1: blood that's being generated from this the skull trauma, and

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Speaker 1: also those little flex of bone and guess where they're going.

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Speaker 1: They're all going down her trachea into her airway and

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Speaker 1: it's including her airway. So she begins to asphyxiate as

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Speaker 1: a result of this. So she's really got a double

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Speaker 1: doze here, doesn't she. She's got this massive head trauma

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Speaker 1: and all the while some people actually refer to this

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Speaker 1: as an individual drowning in their own blood, if you will,

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Speaker 1: And it's an absolutely horrific way to die. And the

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Speaker 1: fascinating part about this is that the daughter and the

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Speaker 1: boyfriend would have been present for this. They would have

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Speaker 1: heard what would have been the best way to kind

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Speaker 1: of term it would be a gurgling sound as she's

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Speaker 1: breathing her last you would have actually seen blood bubbling

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Speaker 1: up out of her nose and out of her mouth

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Speaker 1: as she's struggling to breathe. And there her daughter stands. This,

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Speaker 1: this daughter that in life, this woman had given birth

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Speaker 1: to and had nurtured throughout her life, provided a roof

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Speaker 1: over her head. She watched her mother just there, in

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Speaker 1: this horrible state, essentially drowned to death on her own blood. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so let's be technical here, Joe. You said drownding in

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Speaker 1: her own blood, and you described this as an asphyxiation.

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Speaker 1: Are they the same thing? I mean, did she drowned

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Speaker 1: or was she asphyxiated? Yeah, that's that's a point that

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Speaker 1: needs to be made here. You know, when people say

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Speaker 1: that and individual drowns in their own blood, that essentially

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Speaker 1: is kind of a metaphor for what's going on. But

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Speaker 1: in in essence, what's happening is that the blood is

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Speaker 1: going down the airway and as it's being inhalated, that

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Speaker 1: means to breathe in all of that tissue that's issuing

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Speaker 1: forth out of these fractured sinus areas, um is being

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Speaker 1: drawn down into the trachea and it's blocking the airway.

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Speaker 1: So that's where the asphyxia comes in. Now, when when

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Speaker 1: the autopsy would have been performed, let me kind of

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Speaker 1: paint the picture for what they would have seen when

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Speaker 1: this poor woman's lungs were removed in her airway, which

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Speaker 1: is something we do at autopsy, they would have opened

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Speaker 1: them and as they opened them, blood and probably clotted

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Speaker 1: blood would have literally poured out of of the trachea.

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Speaker 1: And it's just not a normal finding. And as you

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Speaker 1: begin to examine the lungs and you dissect the lungs

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Speaker 1: and the little air sacks, you'll actually find focal areas

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Speaker 1: of hemorrhage that are contained there in And that's her

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Speaker 1: blood that's coming from her head literally from these fractured areas,

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Speaker 1: and she's breathing it into those tiny little air sacks

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Speaker 1: into her lung So, yeah, it's kind of a drowning

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Speaker 1: process in the sense that you know when an individual

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Speaker 1: drowns and water, what are they doing, Well, they're inhalating water,

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Speaker 1: and we know that water and the lungs is not

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Speaker 1: compatible with life. Well, neither is blood, neither is bone

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Speaker 1: in this case. So yeah, I guess you could say

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Speaker 1: in a way this woman did, in fact drown on

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Speaker 1: her own blood. What about defensive wounds, Joe. We know that,

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Speaker 1: as you have said, she was beaten very very badly,

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Speaker 1: but there, if I understand it correctly, there were wounds

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Speaker 1: on her hands, on her arms that most likely were

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Speaker 1: defensive wounds. Described those for me. You know, most of

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Speaker 1: the time when you see defensive wounds, Jackie, on an

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Speaker 1: individual um, they're going to present, uh, particularly when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about blunt force trauma like a bludgeoning event like this,

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Speaker 1: you're going to pick up on what are called focal

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Speaker 1: areas of hemorrhage, all right, So they're gonna come up

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Speaker 1: as bruises. Again, that's that's just a ten dollar term

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Speaker 1: for a bruise. And what's fascinating is that at the

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Speaker 1: morgue at the autopsy room, if we have the weapon

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Speaker 1: that was used in this case, we re flect back

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Speaker 1: to what we've already talked about with this heavy glass

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Speaker 1: decorative bowl. If that bowl has any kind of pattern

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Speaker 1: to it, just think, you know, if you've ever been

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Speaker 1: over to, uh to one of your relatives homes and

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00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,600
Speaker 1: they've got a fancy candy dish, for instance, and it

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00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,679
Speaker 1: will have those kind of uh, very sharp edges on it,

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Speaker 1: you know, that were formed in some glass factory somewhere.

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Speaker 1: Those patterns will actually begin to demonstrate on the soft tissue.

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Speaker 1: You'd find them on the head. But let's just think

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Speaker 1: about her hands and her arms. What's really horrifying about

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Speaker 1: this is that because she had these injuries on her

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Speaker 1: hands and arms, we know that she had an awareness.

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Speaker 1: It's not like they just walked up behind her jackie

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Speaker 1: and knocked her unconscious. No, no, no, that's not what

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Speaker 1: happened in this case. This woman was initially attacked. This

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Speaker 1: guy probably came at her with a bowl with incredible

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Speaker 1: ferocity because it takes a lot of energy to do this.

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Speaker 1: She has enough awareness where she's gonna raise not one arm,

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Speaker 1: not one hand, but both arms and both hands in

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Speaker 1: order to try to fend him off. And the reason

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Speaker 1: we know this is that there are multiple contusions over

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Speaker 1: the surfaces of both hands and both arms. So this

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Speaker 1: gives you an idea that she's attempting to find this

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Speaker 1: attacker off. Now her daughter. Heather says that the entire

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Speaker 1: time this was going on, she was hiding in the

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Speaker 1: bathroom and she's putting it all off on the boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: But just think about how horrific this is. If the

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Speaker 1: daughter's involved in this and she's trying to control mom

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Speaker 1: and this guy swinging this bowl around. We do know

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Speaker 1: that she's gone to the ground at this point because

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Speaker 1: we think back to her injuries. We know that she's

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Speaker 1: got a fractured vertebra. Well, you don't fracture vertebrate simply

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Speaker 1: by striking somebody in the nose with a bowl. That's

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Speaker 1: something that she's trying to roll away from, and so

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00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 1: he crashes his bowl down on her cervical vertebra and

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Speaker 1: actually fractures. People don't realize how much force that takes,

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Speaker 1: So there's an awareness we've got these defensive wounds that

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00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 1: are playing into this. She's rolling around because she's got

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Speaker 1: these injuries on multiple planes, on the sides of her head,

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Speaker 1: at the top of course, the front, and eventually in

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Speaker 1: the back where this vertebrus fracture. You have your mama

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Speaker 1: beaten to death by your boyfriend and you're in a

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Speaker 1: foreign country, six plane ride from l a, what are

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Speaker 1: you gonna do next? You're in a foreign country. What

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Speaker 1: are you gonna do with the body after this attack happens. Well,

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Speaker 1: that was a good question that they had to figure out, Joe,

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Speaker 1: what do you do with the body? We know that

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Speaker 1: Heather Mac and her boyfriend put her mother inside a suitcase.

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Speaker 1: That suitcase was transported downstairs as if they were checking out.

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Speaker 1: It was put into a taxi and they tried to

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Speaker 1: slip away to another hotel to not get caught. But

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Speaker 1: what we find out is the taxi driver calls the

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00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:04,879
Speaker 1: police once he pulls out the suitcase, and there is

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00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:09,399
Speaker 1: large amounts of blood soaking through the suitcase. And I

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Speaker 1: have to tell you, Joe, I really don't even know

357
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: where to start on this, but so let's just start there.

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Speaker 1: We know that once your heart stops beating, that blood

359
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,600
Speaker 1: stops pumping. So first, how did the suitcase get so bloody? Well,

360
00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 1: you know, when you see images of the suitcase jacket,

361
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 1: it's kind of striking. You're handling luggage and all of

362
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,200
Speaker 1: a sudden you come across this. It's a it's actually

363
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: a rigid suitcase. It's not some kind of jim bag

364
00:22:34,160 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: like thing, and you've got blood smeared all on the

365
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,240
Speaker 1: outside of this thing. Well, that tells us a lot

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Speaker 1: about the dynamic that went on after death. Um, these

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00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 1: individuals that we're tasked, that's the daughter and the boyfriend

368
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: with getting this woman's body into this People are calling

369
00:22:56,080 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 1: it a large suitcase. It's really not that large. It's

370
00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:01,440
Speaker 1: no larger than anything else you've got. Buy it some

371
00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: luggage place or some some shop out there. It's pretty standard.

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Speaker 1: They would have to have tightly folded her up in here.

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Speaker 1: And you're talking about this blood issuing from the body

374
00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: post mortal, Well, yeah, it's going to issue from the

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Speaker 1: body post morton. First of all, blood is liquid, so

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00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,080
Speaker 1: it's going to seek the lowest point of gravity and

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00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 1: it trust me, if you've got these horrendous injuries to

378
00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 1: your face like this poor woman did, blood is going

379
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: to seep out of there and it will be a

380
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,719
Speaker 1: copious That means that's a fancy word for a lot.

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Speaker 1: As you know, forensic pathologists like to use the term copious.

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00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,840
Speaker 1: It's a lot of blood. It would have seeped out

383
00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: and depended upon how her body is positioned, and this

384
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:47,120
Speaker 1: is key. If they've got her body turned on its

385
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: side in anyway trying to roll her around and manipulate her.

386
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Speaker 1: This is no easy task to jam her into this suitcase.

387
00:23:55,200 --> 00:23:58,160
Speaker 1: There will be blood everywhere. It will be issuing from

388
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 1: her her now greatly fractured nose. It's traumatized. She's probably

389
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 1: got lacerations all of her face and all over the

390
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,959
Speaker 1: top of her head. And I can't, I cannot go

391
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: another second without reminding everybody that, again, the head is

392
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 1: the most vascular area of the body. It has the

393
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 1: most vessels in it. So therefore logic would dictate you're

394
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,359
Speaker 1: probably gonna have the most blood that's in dwelling there. Remember,

395
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: she'd lived long enough probably for a brain to swell

396
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:26,200
Speaker 1: up a little bit, so she's gonna be in gorged

397
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: with this fluid, and so it's getting everywhere. Can you

398
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: imagine they're not equipped to do this. They're not wearing

399
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 1: any kind of environmental protection suits or anything. They're up

400
00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 1: there and they're you know, and their standard everyday close

401
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: and they're trying to manipulate this woman's body into the suitcase.

402
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 1: So they're going to be covered with blood. And in forensics,

403
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 1: what we refer to this as is transfer blood. So

404
00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,760
Speaker 1: if you put your hands on a bloody surface or

405
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 1: on a bloody body, and then you touch somewhere else,

406
00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: like the exterior of this suitcase, you'll have blood all

407
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: on the outside of it. It It will be all over you.

408
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: It will be on the contacting surfaces underlying the suitcase

409
00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 1: because you're having to leverage, so it's gonna be on

410
00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 1: the carpeted surface or the marble floor or the wooden

411
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: floor that's that's supporting the suitcase. And then if you're

412
00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 1: having to leverage your body, say there's a coffee table,

413
00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:19,159
Speaker 1: you have to move it out of the way, and

414
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,719
Speaker 1: all these things people don't think about when they're contacting

415
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: these surfaces. That's how we catch people lots of times

416
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: with forensics, because people do not understand that everywhere they

417
00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: touch in this environment, there's gonna be a trace left behind.

418
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: And when you create such a bloody mess as was

419
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 1: created with this attack, you'll have blood all over the place.

420
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 1: So that explains why this the exterior of this suitcase

421
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: is just covered or bathed in blood. I would have

422
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 1: to imagine, also, Joe, that the pressure that they are

423
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 1: putting on this body to get it to fit into

424
00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: this particular area. I guess would have to kind of

425
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 1: be like pushing on a balloon, trying to push air

426
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: out of a balloon, so that it is actually forcing

427
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 1: the blood out of the body at any opening that

428
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,919
Speaker 1: it can get out. You've got a gold star today, Jackie.

429
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:15,919
Speaker 1: You've learned, and I'm pleased with that with that comment.

430
00:26:16,040 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 1: You're absolutely right. It's it's almost I like the analogy

431
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: better of like squeezing an orange. If you if you

432
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: cut a slit into an orange and you begin to

433
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 1: squeeze the exterior of that orange. You don't have to

434
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 1: squeeze it very hard. But if there's a already an

435
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 1: existing defect in orange, where's fluid come go? Well, it's

436
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 1: gonna seek that area that has the least amount of

437
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: tension on it. And all of that fluid, you know,

438
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: for instance, like an orange, is mostly water, so it's

439
00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:43,160
Speaker 1: going to pour out of that area. And as they

440
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 1: are manipulating her body, even though the heart is no

441
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 1: longer pumping, if you're manipulating the legs, say, bending them

442
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 1: at the hips and at the knees and at the feet,

443
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: and you're having to contain the arms, that's almost got

444
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 1: a pumping action, doesn't it. And you've already created. These

445
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: little defects are holes in the body from this bludgeoning event.

446
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,400
Speaker 1: You're pumping blood out of the body. You can't stop it.

447
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: The only way you can, really, I don't know, kind

448
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 1: of kind of slow it down is if you take

449
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 1: something like a towel or a plastic bag and wrap

450
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: the head in. But I gotta tell you, Jackie, based

451
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: upon what I've seen and what I've heard about this case,

452
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: it seems very frenzied. It doesn't seem like they put

453
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,719
Speaker 1: a lot of thought into it. And you know, we

454
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: we think about that bowl. It's not like he went

455
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: out and got a hammer. It's it's you know, it's

456
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: not like he went out and got lead pipe. He

457
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: went and got a decorative bowl. Of all things in

458
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,400
Speaker 1: the world that you're gonna use to kill somebody with,

459
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: this is what you choose. So that gives us an

460
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: indication they're not putting a lot of thought into this.

461
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:49,119
Speaker 1: And of course that's played out. You know, at the

462
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: end of the day when they decided to leave the hotel,

463
00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:55,000
Speaker 1: and for them to be able to leave the hotel,

464
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 1: they had to dispose of the body, and their decision

465
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: was to put chill of von wy smack into the

466
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: suitcase and knowing Joe, what they had to do is

467
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 1: just mind boggling to me. Besides the fact that they

468
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,679
Speaker 1: killed her mother, what they did to dispose of this body.

469
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: How do you put a human inside of a suitcase?

470
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: You know, Jackie. One of the things that that I found, uh,

471
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: kind of fascinating about this this young man, and you know,

472
00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,199
Speaker 1: we've talked about how this is kind of what I

473
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: would refer to as a disorganized event. He actually went

474
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 1: down to the front desk after having committed this horrible

475
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: crime and asked people to front desk for duct tape.

476
00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: Can you imagine. So the reason is is that they've

477
00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:47,560
Speaker 1: got to do something in order to secure her body

478
00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 1: within the suitcase. Either one of two things. Either that

479
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: can't tighten her down enough like binding her to get

480
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 1: her down to the size that they need her to

481
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: her body to comple itwo to get within this rigid suitcase,

482
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:06,560
Speaker 1: or they can't get the case closed well enough and

483
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: so they're having to you know, kind of wrap this

484
00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: thing up. I think that what was going on is

485
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,440
Speaker 1: they couldn't contain her body well enough, so they're having

486
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 1: to to kind of bind her down to get her

487
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,800
Speaker 1: into this environment. I can't imagine that these people felt

488
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: that comfortable around something this grotesque, And so there's a

489
00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: there's a certain level of tension that comes along with this.

490
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 1: And you don't think about what you're doing, but what

491
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: you do know is that you want to put as

492
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:37,240
Speaker 1: much distance between yourself and this crime, and the crime

493
00:29:37,320 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: is symbolized by this body. They want to try to

494
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,880
Speaker 1: put as much distance between themselves and this body. But

495
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: how do you do that? Because remember, they're not in Chicago,

496
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 1: They're not familiar with the streets there, they have no idea,

497
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: they're disoriented to where everything is. And now on top

498
00:29:56,440 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: of that, you've got to get rid of human remains.

499
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 1: It's uh, it's a very dawning task. So how do

500
00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 1: you do it, though, Joe? How do you put a

501
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: body knowing that lividity is going to set in where

502
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: the joints stiffen and in making movement of of a body,

503
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: making the movements difficult. So what would they have to

504
00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: have done? I mean, are you talking about breaking breaking bones,

505
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: which is hard to do just with the human hands.

506
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:27,440
Speaker 1: Are you talking about popping tendons or I mean, what

507
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 1: physically happened here to her body. Well we we there's

508
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: no indication there was any kind of dismemberment that that

509
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: that took place. But what can happen in order to

510
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: uh manipulate bodies into small spaces is not necessarily the

511
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 1: fracturing of bones. But you can place enough tension, enough

512
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: force rather is a better term, enough force on to

513
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: say the extremities like the knees and particularly the hip points,

514
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,680
Speaker 1: so that generally gives people the most trouble and shoulders

515
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,000
Speaker 1: to disjoint them. Now, just let that sink in for

516
00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: a second, because that takes a tremendous amount of force,

517
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 1: because you have all of these ligament attachments, uh that

518
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:12,360
Speaker 1: that have to become dislodged. Uh. Just the the joint

519
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: where the hip fits into the pelvic girdle is very robust.

520
00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: So in a case like this where you're not doing dismemberment,

521
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 1: you're literally going to have to disjoint the body and

522
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: kind of folded in on itself and that's gonna take time.

523
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: And I'm glad you brought up post mortem lividity in

524
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,160
Speaker 1: this case. And the reason is is that with a

525
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: case like this, one of the things you're going to

526
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,160
Speaker 1: want to examine is the distribution of blood settling in

527
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 1: the body. Now, this is not something that I would imagine,

528
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: and I've got a reason for this. This is not

529
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: something I would imagine that they did willie nilly. To

530
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 1: begin with, they had to think about this at least

531
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 1: for a moment, and they didn't plan it very well.

532
00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 1: But they had to get that body out of there.

533
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 1: So they're sitting there scratching their heads. How are we

534
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:59,320
Speaker 1: going to do this? So, all the while this woman's

535
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: body has lay in, their blood settling. You can't stop gravity.

536
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: Blood is settling. So you're gonna have a presentation, say

537
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: she's the final blow that killed her. Maybe put her

538
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: face down on the floor. Will blood is going to

539
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 1: settle to the front of her body. Well, all of

540
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 1: a sudden, you've got this presentation of post morm avidity anteriorly,

541
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: which means front. And then you fold her over and

542
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: you put her into this suitcase. Now she's kind of

543
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: laying on her side. Well, it takes several hours for

544
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: the lividity to to actually set in, so you'll get

545
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 1: multiple points of settling of lividity on this body, and

546
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: that gives you an indication to somebody's manipulated to the body.

547
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 1: And again that goes to the picture you're trying to

548
00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: present of what they did post mortem relative to their activities.

549
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,080
Speaker 1: One of the essential part here is that there were

550
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:51,440
Speaker 1: witnesses to them exiting the hotel. They've got bags and

551
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: of course they've got v bag that contains uh that

552
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: contains her body, the victim's body. But you know what,

553
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: they didn't take notice of any kind of blood on

554
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,720
Speaker 1: the perpetrator's body. So what does that tell us? What

555
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 1: It tells us that they probably took at least some

556
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 1: amount of time to clean themselves up, because you know,

557
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: let's face it, and anything's gonna self an alarm with

558
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: people that are paying attention. If you've got blood smeared

559
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 1: up and down the side of your face, on your neck,

560
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: on your hands, and that sort of thing. Bolly's a

561
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: tropical environment, so you're not gonna be wearing heavy clothes.

562
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: It's not gonna like you're gonna walk out with a

563
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: park on. You might be wearing shorts and maybe a

564
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 1: tank top or a T shirt. All of your body

565
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: surfaces are going to be exposed, so people will see

566
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,800
Speaker 1: your skin. You have to take time to clean up because,

567
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: as we have already established, this is just an absolutely

568
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: horror show of crime scene. M Joseph Scott Morgan in

569
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: this his body bags,