WEBVTT - Yolk with Doak 2: Golf Course Architecture 101 - Part 2 0:00:00.880 --> 0:00:04.240 Welcome back to part two of Golf Course Architecture one 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:08.080 oh one on the Yoke with Doak. If you miss 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:12.880 part one, check it out on our feed, on iTunes, Stitcher, 0:00:13.160 --> 0:00:16.640 or on our website. And if you join the podcast, 0:00:17.520 --> 0:00:19.319 please give us a review and rate us in the 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:20.160 iTunes store. 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:30.800 Tom Dok is back and as usual, he's not holding back, 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:37.440 but don't toss the yolk and the famously candied Doak 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:38.800 doesn't pull any punches. 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.960 How do I make natural looking contour? Hire the biggest 0:00:44.000 --> 0:00:45.280 pool in the village and told. 0:00:45.159 --> 0:00:47.160 Him to get flat first? 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:52.800 Overrated, underrated, rough, terribly overrated over the years. 0:01:00.160 --> 0:01:04.880 So you've mentioned front to back sloping greens a couple times, 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.840 and Tom w had a question. He says, I think 0:01:07.840 --> 0:01:10.880 that front to back sloping greens are challenging and interesting. 0:01:11.400 --> 0:01:15.679 Why don't we see more greens that slope this way? 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:20.480 There's two reasons you don't see those more. One is 0:01:20.520 --> 0:01:22.640 that they're hard to see from the fairway. 0:01:23.280 --> 0:01:25.279 You know, if you're playing a hole that's just running 0:01:25.280 --> 0:01:28.120 straight down a hill and then the green keeps running 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:30.400 down the hill, that's okay. That's just the same as 0:01:30.440 --> 0:01:32.640 having a flat hole with a flat green. You still 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:36.039 see the same stuff, but if the hole's not really 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:39.520 playing downhill, and then you've got you know, the green 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.080 is kind of above your eye level a little bit, 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:44.240 and it goes away from you. You don't see any 0:01:44.280 --> 0:01:46.839 of the surface of the green, and most golfers don't 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.360 like that. They're very uncomfortable with it when they only 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:51.960 see the flags sticking up behind the bunker and they 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:55.640 can't really see if it's ten feet on the green 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.480 or fifty feet on the green or whatever. So you know, 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:05.560 and then the other reason is a green that goes 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.400 away from you doesn't hold as well, and you've got 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:11.639 a ton of players just immediately I hit a good 0:02:11.639 --> 0:02:13.079 shot and it didn't hold the green. 0:02:13.120 --> 0:02:13.760 That's unfair. 0:02:14.840 --> 0:02:19.600 So really it goes back to those two reasons. Make 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:23.880 greens running away from you not popular. Doesn't mean it's 0:02:23.880 --> 0:02:27.440 not good design, but it means you're not going to 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:29.120 get a lot of love for doing a lot of 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:32.000 greens that go away from you. And you kind of 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:34.440 have to balance that out when you're designing a golf course. 0:02:34.520 --> 0:02:35.960 Is how much do I care about that? 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:37.320 You know? 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:39.600 I know the more of this, you know, I know 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:41.960 this is going to make the course more challenging and 0:02:42.000 --> 0:02:44.359 more interesting. But I also know it's going to turn 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.000 some people off. So how far am I willing to 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:50.840 go on that? And you know, I've done it a 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:53.480 lot on some courses. Keep Kidnappers has a bunch of 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:57.120 them because they're you know, keep kidnappers. Everybody thinks of 0:02:57.160 --> 0:02:59.560 it as a pretty flat side overlooking the ocean, but 0:02:59.600 --> 0:03:02.680 the real the whole thing is on you know, a 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:06.919 decent tilt. It's like a tabletop, but it's a tilted tabletop, 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.360 so the visibility is not really a problem. Basically, every 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.440 hole that plays toward the ocean is playing downhill and 0:03:13.440 --> 0:03:14.560 the greens going away from you. 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:18.520 It's kind of like the first hole at Oakmont, and 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.320 that's a perfect example of where the best players in 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:23.680 the world all of a sudden have to think about 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.160 where they're landing the shot and how much it's going 0:03:26.200 --> 0:03:26.760 to roll out. 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.080 The first hole of Oakmont is you know, that's like 0:03:30.120 --> 0:03:34.520 a perfect example of what's good about a hole with 0:03:34.560 --> 0:03:35.480 a green running. 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:37.320 Away, because. 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:42.320 The part of the hole that people don't understand or 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:45.840 don't get through their thick skull is if you're going 0:03:45.920 --> 0:03:48.760 to miss that green, miss it over the back. Yeah, 0:03:49.320 --> 0:03:54.640 that's that's counterintuitive to most golfers. But you know, if 0:03:54.680 --> 0:03:57.720 you go along, you're chipping back uphill and it's not 0:03:57.800 --> 0:04:00.600 so severe. The worst thing you can do is try 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.560 to sneak it onto the front of the green and either. 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.360 Be short or miss it in the rough. 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:09.280 Short and now you've got a terrifying little chip to 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:12.680 a green that's still screaming away from you. Is you 0:04:12.720 --> 0:04:15.640 know that costs you, Like a that's usually a full shot. 0:04:16.320 --> 0:04:18.080 You know, you try to sneak it on the green 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:20.440 and miss, your next shot is going to be at 0:04:20.440 --> 0:04:22.160 the back edge where you would have been in two 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:26.479 if you had just taken more club. That's why I 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:31.440 think those holes are worthwhile. And yet those are the 0:04:31.440 --> 0:04:34.960 ones that people people, the average golfer would scream about. 0:04:34.960 --> 0:04:38.359 The first hole at Oakmont, really long part four to 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.480 a green that's really falling away from you is about 0:04:41.520 --> 0:04:43.720 as hard as it gets for most people. And they 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:46.960 don't think, just rip a shot through the green, it 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:49.479 doesn't matter going back and go from there. 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:51.160 The course. 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.000 I grew up playing this little Muni and it is 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:59.680 built in a floodplain in the sixties. This hole is 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:04.520 someone The longer part fours and notoriously, the contractor built 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:07.760 the green upside down, so it's built up in the 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:10.119 front where it would have been built up in the back. 0:05:10.560 --> 0:05:11.719 Okay, and then it goes. 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:13.719 I was thinking gravel on top that would have been 0:05:13.800 --> 0:05:14.280 really bad. 0:05:15.240 --> 0:05:19.240 But it runs away and it gives everybody just fit. 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:21.599 I mean, I remember that was where my high school 0:05:21.600 --> 0:05:24.320 team played, and that hole was always the toughest hole 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.960 because you're if they put the pin back, you're hitting 0:05:27.000 --> 0:05:28.960 to this green that runs away and you always end 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:31.520 up over. But it was, you know, in terms of 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:34.720 the holes that I think of, despite the build up 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.240 in the front, the super unnatural. It's like one of 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:39.479 the holes I remember the most about that first and 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:41.000 I think is one of the best holes there and 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:44.840 it's dead straight your your first hole at Stonewall North 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.279 has got that pitch running away. 0:05:47.920 --> 0:05:50.160 We were thinking about the first green at Oakmont when 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:50.880 we built that hole. 0:05:53.480 --> 0:06:01.159 So uh, here's another question from Gordon Collins. I don't 0:06:01.240 --> 0:06:05.600 understand how to know what makes for a great green complexes. 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.839 I'm starting to recognize whole strategies and why the architect 0:06:09.880 --> 0:06:13.919 can put certain features in those locations plays in different 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.839 ways to play a whole but appreciating a good green 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:20.640 complex versus a bad one is not something I grasp. 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:27.920 Really good question, you know. 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:34.800 I think it's it's a microcosm of what makes a 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:35.480 good golf hole. 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.240 In the strategy of a good golf hole. 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.560 I mean, when I'm building courses, I spent the most 0:06:40.600 --> 0:06:45.960 of my time, you know, when we design a green, 0:06:46.040 --> 0:06:48.120 it's not so much for what the putts are going 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:50.599 to be like, it's what the recovery shots are like 0:06:50.640 --> 0:06:53.640 around the green. I spent a lot of time, Like 0:06:54.600 --> 0:06:56.919 I remember sev when he used to play golf. You know, 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.599 he'd be like he wouldn't have a club in his hand. 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.039 He'd just be visualizing the shot and kind of making 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.120 a little swing, trying to figure out, Okay, where am 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:06.039 I going to land this ball so it stops dead 0:07:06.080 --> 0:07:08.960 to the hole, And I almost do the same thing. 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:12.640 It's like, okay, from over here, who you'd be really 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:14.680 dead to that pin placement and over here and not 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:18.800 so bad. So to me, a really good green complex 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:22.600 is just one that there's a variety of difficulty around 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.960 the green. There's a good side to beyond and there's 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.320 a bad side to be on, just like there's a 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:29.960 good side of the fairway to be on and there's 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.720 a bad side of the fairway to be on. So 0:07:32.880 --> 0:07:34.640 you can do that with a lot of different things. 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:36.320 You know, you can have a water hazard on one 0:07:36.400 --> 0:07:38.720 side and open ground to the other. You can have 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.720 just you know, one or two really nasty bunkers that 0:07:42.760 --> 0:07:46.400 are a bad place to be. But you know, usually 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:48.600 what's going to make it hard is the tilt of 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:49.000 the green. 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:50.400 That no matter. 0:07:50.680 --> 0:07:54.480 You know, if the green's tilted and there's a high 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:57.000 side and the low side, usually you don't want to 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.440 be on the high side. You want to be pitching 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.920 or chipping uphill. So you know, sometimes that could be 0:08:04.000 --> 0:08:06.120 side to side in the greens. Sometimes it could be 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:09.280 front to back like we were talking about. Traditionally it's 0:08:09.280 --> 0:08:13.280 back to front. You know, we try to mix it 0:08:13.400 --> 0:08:15.560 up so it's not the same for eighteen holes and 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:17.520 you can't just say, okay, I always want to miss 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:23.480 short and that'll be the easiest chip. But a good 0:08:23.480 --> 0:08:26.800 green complex is one where there are good places and 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:27.680 bad places to be. 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:33.559 That's so with that, you use a ton of short 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:35.360 grass around the greens, How does. 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.720 That not necessarily we like to use more short grass 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:40.200 around the greens, but it's the same. You know, if 0:08:40.920 --> 0:08:45.280 there's rough surround in the green. You know, Wingfoot has 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:49.680 rougher bunkers surrounding every green, but there's still bunkers you 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:51.960 can be in and have a place to get up 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.480 and down, and bunkers you better not be in like 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.120 they you know, in the US Open, they used to 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.800 talk about short sighting yourself all the time, Like the 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:03.960 greens are pretty small and if you wind up, you know, 0:09:04.000 --> 0:09:06.680 if the pins on the tuck right and you miss 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:10.560 the green right and the rough, you know, you're trying 0:09:10.600 --> 0:09:12.400 to hit a little touchy shot out of rough and 0:09:12.440 --> 0:09:14.680 you've only got ten feet of green to work with 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:19.840 before it gets away from the hole. That's another example. 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:24.360 I mean, even though there's no short grass around the green, 0:09:24.880 --> 0:09:26.800 you know, good player looks at that and goes, no, 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:31.000 I need to miss to the wide side. And usually 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:33.200 that's true. The only exception is if you've got a 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:35.760 green this crowned. You know, we like to play with 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:39.000 that too, where where you're bailing out and you think 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.000 it's going to be an easy shot from there and 0:09:41.040 --> 0:09:41.320 it's not. 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:45.079 Yeah, crown greens are are nasty. 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:49.520 They well, it's there it's that they're counterintuitive, you know, 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.240 the you know, good players tend to if in doubt, 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.000 they play toward the middle of the green, and then 0:09:55.000 --> 0:09:56.720 all they have to do is miss it a little 0:09:56.840 --> 0:09:59.240 to the one side, and they're putting over the crown 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:07.359 and they're they're so focused on avoiding short sighting themselves 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:09.520 that they don't realize there are holes where that's the 0:10:09.600 --> 0:10:10.600 right place to miss. 0:10:12.000 --> 0:10:12.240 Yeah. 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:15.360 I almost try and never short side myself. 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:18.400 Right, but on a crown green, that's the place you 0:10:18.400 --> 0:10:20.760 want to miss usually as long as it's not real 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.040 severe what's over to the right of the green side. 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:27.560 The crown greens also get the ball rolling, which, yes, 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.680 like that's something I hate when I see the ball rolling. 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.480 It's like most people don't have a choice that roll. 0:10:33.760 --> 0:10:37.559 Yeah, I think that's a it's a that's a difference 0:10:37.559 --> 0:10:41.840 between the you know, the average Like the ball rolling 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.400 for a beginning player is like the best, most beautiful site, 0:10:46.559 --> 0:10:48.720 and the ball rolling for a tour player that's like 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:49.840 when they've lost control. 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:52.319 Yep, you're right for the most part. 0:10:55.080 --> 0:11:00.400 So Justin Anderson uh wants to know where does where 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.800 do you draw the line between an interesting green complex 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:05.559 and a silly green complex. 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:24.920 That line's different for everybody. You know, I'm a ten 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:29.079 handicap now or twelve. At best, I was about a five, 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:31.959 but the strength of my golf was having a pretty 0:11:31.960 --> 0:11:34.920 good short game. So where I draw the line is 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:38.640 probably a little farther higher up on the scale than 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:44.720 where somebody else would draw the same line. But you know, 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.000 the only thing I think is really unfair on a green, well, 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.240 there's two things I've seen there that are unfair on 0:11:50.280 --> 0:11:52.520 a green. If you've got to play, you know, if 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:55.440 there's enough tilt where they're put in the hole that 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.320 if you try to put it up to the hole 0:11:58.480 --> 0:11:59.880 and it turns around and comes. 0:11:59.679 --> 0:12:05.680 Back, that's unfair. That's you know, you know, that's silly. 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.240 You know, if you're above the hole and when you're putting, 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.760 you know it goes aways past. I don't think that's unfair, 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:15.160 you know, that's that's one of the few things you 0:12:15.160 --> 0:12:17.960 can do to challenge a good player, and you're you're 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:19.760 telling him, don't get above the hole. 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:21.080 You know. 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.520 But as long as that pot from the other side 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.800 of the hole will stop where it stops so you 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:29.679 can go up and tap it in, then I think 0:12:29.720 --> 0:12:34.040 that's okay. The other thing I don't I think you 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:39.360 have to be really careful of is having agreen with 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:43.240 a lot of contour next to a water hazard. You know, 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.559 every the thing I learned from Saint Andrew's more than 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:51.640 anything else, was that all the crazy contourors out there, 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:53.360 there's a good side and. 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:55.840 A bad side to every one of them. 0:12:56.679 --> 0:12:59.200 And all the things that you complain about is being unfair. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:01.880 That contra is in my way and I have to 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.920 put over the hole and it won't stop. If you'd 0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:07.479 have missed to the other side. That was a backstop 0:13:07.600 --> 0:13:09.959 for you, and it's your fault for being in the 0:13:10.000 --> 0:13:13.400 wrong place and having to deal with it. But when 0:13:13.400 --> 0:13:18.160 you add water to the mix, you know, if you 0:13:18.200 --> 0:13:21.160 put the water in the place where the bailout should be, 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.120 then there's nothing you can do. A hole that I 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.200 like to criticize a lot, just because people are familiar 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:32.520 with it. Fifteen at Augusta. You're hitting You're hitting a 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.360 second or third shot off a downhill lie. There's a 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:40.200 pond right in front of the green, a shave bank 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.640 going up to a shave short grass bank going up 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:44.920 to the green. A green with a fair amount of 0:13:44.960 --> 0:13:47.560 tilt that's not really deep, and then it goes over 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:50.040 the back, so you have to, like, if you miss long, 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.400 you have to chip up over a slope and down 0:13:52.440 --> 0:13:57.360 toward the water. You know, that green really isn't it's 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.000 not the most difficult green at Augusta by any stretch, 0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.200 but there's enough tilt to it that you really don't 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:04.440 want to be chipping to. 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.120 The downhill toward the water. 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.079 And yet you can't leave yourself on the low side 0:14:10.200 --> 0:14:10.880 because there's. 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:11.480 A pond there. 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:14.760 Yeah, so there's you know, that's the kind of hole 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:15.960 I try to avoid. 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:19.200 Building m HM, where there's where there's no real safe 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:20.760 bailout right. 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:22.160 It's kind of what we talked about. 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:24.920 Every shot, every shot around the green is a hard shot. 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:27.920 There's no easy side. It's just all. 0:14:27.760 --> 0:14:30.960 Hard that that makes a lot of sense that you 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:33.160 should have one spot you can go, but you're giving 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:35.760 up the especially on that whole a par five, you're 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.520 giving up if you bail over there. You're giving like 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:41.160 to say, there was a safe spot. You bail there, 0:14:41.600 --> 0:14:45.280 you're giving up your like easy look at a birdie 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:47.600 or a chance at a birdie if it's your third shot, 0:14:47.960 --> 0:14:50.160 or a chance at an eagle if you're long enough 0:14:50.200 --> 0:14:51.680 to get there in two right. 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.800 And you know, I've never really thought about it much 0:14:54.800 --> 0:14:59.240 in this discussion, but you know there there wasn't a 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.920 pond to start with. It was a little stream going 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.520 in front of the green and there was a little 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.240 more room to the right by the bunker. So the 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:11.560 original design of the hole it wasn't so bad. And 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.440 you know, turning the stream into a pond really took away. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:17.280 You know, when the stream was there, Even if the 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:19.200 stream was right up against the green, you could kind 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:20.520 of chip over the stream. 0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:23.080 But with the pond there, you. 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:26.600 Know, missing short means missing forty or fifty yards short 0:15:26.720 --> 0:15:29.080 and then having that downhill lie to hit that little 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.840 shot over that's that's that's the hardest thing. I'd rather 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.240 be in the water if I could drop somewhere that 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.200 I didn't have to hit that little shot. 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.560 Yeah, that half ledge from a downhill lie to like 0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:45.040 a shallow green is pretty tough for every type of flair. 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:45.640 That's right. 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:52.280 So here this kind of plays into our discussion. While 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.920 John Wills asked, why do green surrounds an aprons always 0:15:56.920 --> 0:16:00.440 seem so scripted? Why can't the short grass and closely 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:05.960 moan turf be more like you're bunkering, don't you know, 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:09.440 like the I guess the short turf around, you know, 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.880 and like artistic bunkering shapes. 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.440 It could I mean, you know, I think that's one 0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:23.800 of those things that there was probably a lot more 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.600 interest in the mowing patterns on approaches on old golf 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:32.960 courses has just been lost over time. You know, Tommy, 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:35.200 who is the superintendent for a high point, the first 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.720 course I did when you sat Crystal Downs, I asked 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:41.920 him one day, do they like teach you a class 0:16:41.920 --> 0:16:45.560 in chure school about you know, narrowing up the approach 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.280 to the green, you know, like bringing the rough in 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:50.280 toward the green so it looks like a you know, 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.000 narrows down to like a neck and then widens out 0:16:53.040 --> 0:16:57.000 to the green. Because it seemed like everything I saw 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:00.440 did that, and I was pretty sure that on original 0:17:00.520 --> 0:17:01.920 golf course it wasn't like that. 0:17:02.600 --> 0:17:04.240 And he said. 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:08.879 It was just a subconscious thing that that he'd seen 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.000 so many holes like that that he just naturally did 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:16.080 it without thinking twice about it. And you know, sure enough, 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.959 over time the golf course had changed because you know, 0:17:21.320 --> 0:17:25.520 superintendents imitate what they've seen in other places, and unless 0:17:25.560 --> 0:17:29.800 there's unless there's some pretty detailed map of how the 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:33.280 golf course was supposed to be, things tend to get 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:38.600 rounded off and more normal over time. Yeah, it's like 0:17:39.240 --> 0:17:42.560 like Chicago's a great example. You know, there's a lot 0:17:42.560 --> 0:17:45.320 of different architects that worked in Chicago, and they had 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.920 all different kinds of bunker styles. But when I first 0:17:48.920 --> 0:17:51.600 saw courses in Chicago in the seventies and eighties, the 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.000 bunkers on every course looked the same. They all looked 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:57.520 like Madna because Madna was the great course in town 0:17:57.560 --> 0:18:00.919 and that's where they played the big tournament. So everybody 0:18:01.040 --> 0:18:04.560 just sort of subconsciously started imitating with Dinah. Even if, 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.080 you know, even if it was a Langford course with 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:08.840 a steep bank in front of the green that was 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:11.919 all grass, they would start flaring sand up the banks 0:18:11.960 --> 0:18:13.520 because that's what it would take to make it look 0:18:13.560 --> 0:18:14.960 like the great course down the road. 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:20.440 Yeah, I think about the short knacks that I mean, 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.320 I had never thought about that, but now that I think, it's, like, God, 0:18:24.359 --> 0:18:27.680 how many golf courses have that, like that narrow neck 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:28.639 going into the green. 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.760 It's and it's one of the worst things you can do. 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:35.680 I mean for the average player, you know, they need 0:18:35.720 --> 0:18:37.600 to run the ball into the green and you're always 0:18:37.640 --> 0:18:40.480 catching them up at the edge before they get there. Yeah, 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.560 you know, and it's not you know, the good player 0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.600 is not worried about that at all. You're you know, 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:47.840 you're flying over at ninety nine percent of the time, 0:18:47.880 --> 0:18:51.280 so you don't care. But the average player, it sticks 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:52.960 them up a lot. And then the other thing is, 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:57.840 you know I talked about, you know how you're trying 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.679 to build bounces into the thing, and it's the bounce. 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:03.520 You know, whether the bounce would help you onto the 0:19:03.520 --> 0:19:06.199 green or make it bounce away from the green. It 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:08.200 takes both of them away and the ball just stops 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:09.600 right in front of the green every time. 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:11.320 That's it's one of the thrills. 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.880 Like so many times, there's contours around the edges of bunkers, 0:19:14.920 --> 0:19:17.879 and the thrill of golf is like having your ball 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:20.080 right on the edge of something and see if it 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:20.880 goes in or out. 0:19:21.080 --> 0:19:24.120 Yes, And you know, I probably never would have realized 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:26.480 that if it wasn't firstpend in that year in the UK, 0:19:26.640 --> 0:19:31.440 right out of college, because you didn't see mowing patterns 0:19:31.480 --> 0:19:32.160 like that I. 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:32.800 Mean it was. 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.000 You know, the earliest golf courses were kind of grazed 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.280 and there wasn't you know, nobody was deciding exactly what 0:19:40.440 --> 0:19:41.399 part of it to mow. 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:43.960 How but. 0:19:45.720 --> 0:19:49.520 Over time, you know, they they just didn't. You know, 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.200 nothing about golf course design or maintenance was very. 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:54.880 Very formal back in the old. 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:58.840 Days, so you know, making kind of a symmetric approach 0:19:59.000 --> 0:20:01.159 was just not something that they were ever thinking about. 0:20:01.560 --> 0:20:04.440 Yeah, they just they just mowed the grass as much 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.439 as much grass as they needed to mow, or the 0:20:07.440 --> 0:20:09.000 sheep ate it right, or the sheep. 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.560 Joshua Robi wants to know how do you feel about 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:16.080 trees as a safety feature. 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:23.240 Trees as a safety feature are usually a bad idea. 0:20:23.680 --> 0:20:24.240 You know, if. 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.159 Two holes are close enough together that you've got a 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.639 safety problem. I, as a golfer, would rather see the 0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:35.440 ball coming or at least know that there's somebody hidden 0:20:35.680 --> 0:20:40.240 in my general direction. And if I'm the one hitting 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:43.240 the shot over there, it'd be nice to know I 0:20:43.320 --> 0:20:46.159 need to yell for because there's somebody there, Because you know, 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:50.440 you will have situations on golf courses where you don't 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:53.320 realize there's anybody there at all, and they're in a 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:58.199 dangerous spot. So you know, the ironic part of that 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:04.919 is when you're consulting for club, if you take a 0:21:04.960 --> 0:21:08.320 tree out and then somebody gets hit, there might be 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.840 a liability suit over that, and there's going to be 0:21:11.840 --> 0:21:14.359 the assumption that the tree might have saved the player 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:17.560 from being hurt. But I find that's not the case. 0:21:17.600 --> 0:21:20.359 You know, that's saying about trees being ninety percent air 0:21:20.480 --> 0:21:22.880 applies to incoming as well as outgoing. 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.639 Well, yeah, a tree could ricochet, of all, and it 0:21:26.640 --> 0:21:28.960 could hit somebody that wouldn't have ever even been in 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:30.200 the right in the area. 0:21:31.000 --> 0:21:32.080 That is also true. 0:21:33.280 --> 0:21:36.760 It makes me think about like six through eight Aposa 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.199 Tiempo and all those trees. 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:41.960 Yes, and. 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:46.920 I'm not sure if I should say on the record, 0:21:46.960 --> 0:21:49.520 but the reason those trees are still there is because 0:21:49.600 --> 0:21:52.520 years ago a golfer on the eighth green was killed 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.600 by a snap hook off the seventh t So that's 0:21:56.640 --> 0:21:59.600 one of those instances that me telling them to take 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.720 out all the trees would open up a huge can 0:22:03.720 --> 0:22:05.840 of worms if anybody ever did that again. 0:22:08.160 --> 0:22:10.000 And that's why those trees are still there. 0:22:10.119 --> 0:22:13.840 Even though that those golf holes were certainly designed to 0:22:13.960 --> 0:22:17.480 all be one big space where you could just you know, 0:22:17.640 --> 0:22:20.399 on seven, you could he had room to miss left 0:22:20.520 --> 0:22:24.120 or right instead of hitting a tree on either side 0:22:24.119 --> 0:22:25.639 of the fairways. 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.280 It's where it being a course that gets forty thousand 0:22:29.359 --> 0:22:31.720 rounds a year instead of like a ten thousand round 0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:35.920 exclusive club really kind of hurts sure as a golf course. 0:22:36.000 --> 0:22:36.480 And that's what. 0:22:39.720 --> 0:22:43.919 You know, if Alistair McKenzie had a weakness as a designer, 0:22:46.080 --> 0:22:49.080 it was that he didn't visualize those courses ever. Being 0:22:49.080 --> 0:22:53.520 that busy, you know, he would try so hard to 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:57.080 take a natural feature like a wash or something and 0:22:57.119 --> 0:23:02.240 get it into play on two holes, just one, and. 0:23:02.119 --> 0:23:04.080 That would put the holes pretty close together. 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:08.160 And then so a lot of times when you look 0:23:08.200 --> 0:23:10.720 at some of his older courses that aren't so well known, 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:13.600 that's the problem because first there are these two holes 0:23:13.600 --> 0:23:15.639 that were too close together. They were both cool holes 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:19.720 in isolation together, they were kind of too close, so 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:22.120 they planted trees in between them to keep people from 0:23:22.160 --> 0:23:22.800 it in each other. 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:25.439 And then, you know, and that took. 0:23:25.320 --> 0:23:28.840 Away the feature that the holes were routed around, so 0:23:28.920 --> 0:23:31.720 you it went from two good holes to two bad 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:34.240 holes just because they were a little too close together 0:23:34.280 --> 0:23:35.800 for somebody's comfort. 0:23:36.960 --> 0:23:39.399 Yeah, I think everybody, every golfer should just have to 0:23:39.400 --> 0:23:42.320 be a sign a liability for him if I get hit, like, 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:44.840 I'm not going to sue because like you know, you're going, 0:23:44.880 --> 0:23:46.280 You're choosing to go play golf. 0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:49.440 Put a lovely concept. 0:23:49.560 --> 0:23:52.239 There's a lot of golf course architects that would support that, 0:23:53.200 --> 0:23:55.720 but there's a lot of trial lawyers that wouldn't. 0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:03.480 Sean wants to know your views on hidden bunkers. 0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:12.400 There's very few people that think bunkers a hidden bunker 0:24:12.440 --> 0:24:16.919 is a good idea, and I've used them very rarely 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:21.159 in my own work, even though you know, I'm a 0:24:21.240 --> 0:24:23.400 huge fan of Saint Andrew's and a bunch of other 0:24:23.480 --> 0:24:26.080 links courses where there are bunkers that are really hard 0:24:26.080 --> 0:24:26.800 to see. 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:28.760 From the tea. 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:35.400 So you know, I would never dismiss them as being okay, 0:24:36.600 --> 0:24:38.960 because that would mean I'd have to take out some 0:24:39.040 --> 0:24:41.760 of the coolest bunkers at St. Andrews because they don't apply. 0:24:42.359 --> 0:24:44.720 And of course, when you talk about hidden bunkers, it's 0:24:44.840 --> 0:24:50.800 like from anywhere do you have to be able to 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:53.959 see the bunker from any place you've driven it, or 0:24:54.840 --> 0:24:58.000 just you know, do you have to see every bunker 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:03.000 you could possibly hit into from the te one of 0:25:03.000 --> 0:25:06.000 the few hidden bunkers that I could think of that 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:10.080 that I really loved. My first golf course, High Point, 0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:13.240 had a little short part four on the front nine, 0:25:13.400 --> 0:25:15.840 and it was a three hundred and twenty or thirty 0:25:15.920 --> 0:25:21.840 yard hole and the green kind of sat on this 0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:25.040 slight crown in the ground, so you know, it was 0:25:25.119 --> 0:25:28.919 it was kind of built. It was a shallow green, 0:25:29.680 --> 0:25:33.440 kind of long from left to right, and it sat 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:34.879 up a little bit and then it fell off in 0:25:34.920 --> 0:25:37.280 the back and there was a there was a little 0:25:37.280 --> 0:25:38.960 hollow in front that you could see and it was 0:25:39.000 --> 0:25:41.440 all short grass. But behind it I put a pop 0:25:41.440 --> 0:25:45.440 bunker maybe the I don't know if it was the 0:25:45.480 --> 0:25:48.280 deepest pop bunker I built on any course, but it was. 0:25:48.480 --> 0:25:50.840 It was very difficult and it was really small, kind 0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:53.159 of like the Devil's asshole at Pine Valley. 0:25:53.240 --> 0:25:57.800 Not that severe, but severe. The golf pro at high 0:25:57.840 --> 0:26:02.320 Point when it opened said what is that thing? And abandoned. Well, 0:26:02.400 --> 0:26:06.199 so that's what we called it. It's beat existence. But 0:26:06.880 --> 0:26:11.080 to me, that was a great hazard on a short 0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:16.399 part four like that, because the player that knew it 0:26:16.520 --> 0:26:19.040 was there, was scared to death of it. 0:26:19.640 --> 0:26:19.880 You know. 0:26:20.160 --> 0:26:21.879 It was like if the pin was anywhere near the 0:26:21.920 --> 0:26:24.639 back of the green, near where that bunker was, you 0:26:24.680 --> 0:26:27.679 didn't remember exactly where the bunker was, so you had 0:26:27.720 --> 0:26:29.879 to be extra careful. And of course I gave you 0:26:29.920 --> 0:26:31.880 plenty of room to miss in front. You could miss 0:26:31.880 --> 0:26:35.840 in front all day and then trying not to three 0:26:35.880 --> 0:26:39.159 pot but hitting it back there was really nasty. And 0:26:39.200 --> 0:26:46.520 by the same token, you know, ninety percent of golfers 0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:48.440 never miss long with an approach shot. 0:26:49.400 --> 0:26:53.800 Yeah, I mean they might skull one occasionally, but you. 0:26:53.720 --> 0:27:00.199 Know, bad golfers, even reasonable golfers, they always picked the 0:27:00.200 --> 0:27:02.720 club that if they hit it perfect, it'll just barely 0:27:02.760 --> 0:27:03.200 get there. 0:27:04.160 --> 0:27:06.400 So you know, the odds that. 0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:08.919 They're gonna miss ten yards or fifteen yards past the 0:27:08.960 --> 0:27:11.840 pin are pretty small, especially on a short on a 0:27:11.880 --> 0:27:14.720 short shot, So I figured that bunker was really out 0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:18.080 of play for everybody but the better players, and it was. 0:27:18.440 --> 0:27:21.280 It really got in people's heads. So never say never. 0:27:21.760 --> 0:27:24.640 In general, yes, you'd like to be able to see 0:27:24.640 --> 0:27:27.399 where the bunkers are, but there's an exception to pretty 0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:28.080 much every rule. 0:27:28.800 --> 0:27:30.280 When I when I was when I grew. 0:27:30.320 --> 0:27:33.600 I grew up caddying for like twelve years, and I 0:27:33.640 --> 0:27:36.879 always just like I would just hand people like a 0:27:36.920 --> 0:27:39.760 club or two extra. It's so funny how you say, like, 0:27:39.800 --> 0:27:41.840 I would always bank on them not hitting them ball 0:27:41.920 --> 0:27:45.439 solid and over clubbing them so that that that they 0:27:45.560 --> 0:27:46.240 be on the green. 0:27:46.600 --> 0:27:49.159 And actually, now that I think about it, one of 0:27:49.160 --> 0:27:51.960 my best lessons about hidden bunkers was from a couple 0:27:52.000 --> 0:27:55.400 months that I caddied in Saint Andrews. There's there's one 0:27:55.440 --> 0:27:58.160 hole in particular Saint Andrews. The twelfth is the short 0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:00.600 part four, and there was like three, three or four 0:28:00.640 --> 0:28:03.080 bunkers in the fair way that you can't see from 0:28:03.119 --> 0:28:06.080 the tea. They're really kind of all built for when 0:28:06.160 --> 0:28:08.159 the when the hole used to play backwards in the 0:28:08.160 --> 0:28:13.920 old days. And the first few times that I tried 0:28:13.960 --> 0:28:17.639 to caddy there for better players, I would try to 0:28:17.680 --> 0:28:20.880 describe where the bunkers were, but it's hopeless to try to. 0:28:20.920 --> 0:28:23.400 You know, you're looking at it as at a sea 0:28:23.440 --> 0:28:25.959 of fairwehead. It's like, well, there's a couple bunkers kind 0:28:26.000 --> 0:28:27.880 of in the middle at one ninety, and then there's 0:28:27.880 --> 0:28:30.959 a couple of bunkers out there at two forty and 0:28:31.119 --> 0:28:33.399 you know, and then they just top it off the 0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:37.119 tee because they were made them scared to death. So 0:28:38.240 --> 0:28:40.240 you know what I learned from that. I learned from 0:28:40.240 --> 0:28:45.280 that that you know, when you caddy for somebody, you 0:28:45.400 --> 0:28:47.920 have to be positive. Yeah, and you just you know, 0:28:48.120 --> 0:28:50.520 don't tell them about the things that they can't see. 0:28:50.920 --> 0:28:52.880 Just try to point them at somewhere where they can 0:28:52.960 --> 0:28:56.360 avoid it. And you know, if they if they happen 0:28:56.400 --> 0:28:58.760 to hit one in the bunker, you can apologize after. 0:28:58.920 --> 0:29:02.440 But but you know, the negative thought is the last 0:29:02.440 --> 0:29:04.200 thing you want to put in their minds. And I 0:29:04.320 --> 0:29:07.560 you know, and because of that lesson, it's like every 0:29:07.600 --> 0:29:10.160 time I watch the every time I watch the tour 0:29:10.200 --> 0:29:12.960 and they've got the mics close to the guys. Their 0:29:13.000 --> 0:29:19.719 caddies are so good at positive reinforcement. It's like the 0:29:19.880 --> 0:29:22.760 last thing they say to him is that's the perfect club. 0:29:23.680 --> 0:29:23.880 You know. 0:29:23.960 --> 0:29:27.440 It's not like it's not like swing extra hard at 0:29:27.480 --> 0:29:28.960 this or there's gonna be trouble. 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:34.000 It's I've never thought about it, but caddying is actually 0:29:34.200 --> 0:29:37.959 kind of a because when you caddy for beginners or 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:41.240 like the average golfer, like it was, I was always 0:29:41.280 --> 0:29:44.360 about like getting people around the golf course and like 0:29:44.640 --> 0:29:48.680 avoiding hazard, like avoiding bunkers at all costs. But then 0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:52.440 for good players, you're like you learned, hey, take this 0:29:52.560 --> 0:29:55.000 line like get you you want to you want to 0:29:55.040 --> 0:29:57.400 take this aggressive line because like, you know, you you 0:29:57.400 --> 0:29:59.920 get these good players that could actually take advantage of things. 0:30:00.200 --> 0:30:03.120 But for like you know, everybody else, you're just navigating 0:30:03.200 --> 0:30:05.640 him around the course of the easiest you know kind 0:30:05.640 --> 0:30:06.040 of path. 0:30:06.280 --> 0:30:06.520 Yep. 0:30:07.160 --> 0:30:12.080 And you know, caddying is part psychology. Playing golf as 0:30:12.120 --> 0:30:16.000 part psychology. Architecture is part psychology. 0:30:17.200 --> 0:30:21.120 It's maybe we should, you know, instead of former PGA 0:30:21.240 --> 0:30:25.160 tour players becoming caddies, they should be their caddies, or 0:30:25.360 --> 0:30:27.720 becoming architects that should be their caddies. 0:30:28.360 --> 0:30:28.760 I did. 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:31.520 I had to give a speech in Saint Andrews a 0:30:31.520 --> 0:30:36.000 few years ago, and that's one of the things I said. 0:30:36.640 --> 0:30:40.160 It was I got to play in the Dunhill Links 0:30:40.200 --> 0:30:43.880 thing one time. I was really out of my comfort 0:30:43.960 --> 0:30:46.080 zone playing a pro am with a bunch of pros. 0:30:46.120 --> 0:30:49.880 But it was kind of a gift from the client 0:30:50.120 --> 0:30:53.960 that Sabonic, who was good friends Johann Rupert, who runs Dunhill, 0:30:54.360 --> 0:30:57.880 was also one of the founding members of Sabonic. So 0:30:57.880 --> 0:30:59.600 so the two of them let me play in the 0:30:59.640 --> 0:31:02.080 pro aram without paying, however much a cost to do it. 0:31:02.800 --> 0:31:05.960 And you know, the caddies I had at Saint Andrew's 0:31:05.960 --> 0:31:08.719 and Kingsbarns especially were so good that I when I 0:31:08.760 --> 0:31:10.960 was given my talk at dinner, I was like, the 0:31:11.040 --> 0:31:13.400 two caddies that I've had the last two days. 0:31:13.200 --> 0:31:15.840 Would have been really good architects, you know, if. 0:31:15.680 --> 0:31:20.040 They could figure out how to make the land conform 0:31:20.080 --> 0:31:22.760 to what they do, because what they what they were 0:31:22.800 --> 0:31:26.320 doing was you know, looking at my game and trying 0:31:26.360 --> 0:31:28.880 to figure out how to navigate me around the golf course, 0:31:29.320 --> 0:31:31.720 which is you know, that's the weakness of a lot 0:31:31.760 --> 0:31:35.880 of players, is you know, and you know I've noticed 0:31:35.920 --> 0:31:38.680 playing that when I play with people I've had, you know, 0:31:38.680 --> 0:31:41.320 I have tons of people say, oh, that's one of 0:31:41.360 --> 0:31:43.040 the best rounds I've ever played. 0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:44.040 And it's. 0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:48.320 You know, it's partly because I'm helping steer them around 0:31:48.400 --> 0:31:53.840 a little bit, and some of it's not reinforcing the negative, 0:31:54.520 --> 0:31:57.280 but some of it's just you know, trying to simplify 0:31:57.320 --> 0:31:59.080 it for them because in their own heads it's way 0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:01.440 you know, it's way more complicated and they don't need 0:32:01.480 --> 0:32:03.040 to be thinking about all those things at once. 0:32:05.600 --> 0:32:08.440 Mark Stevens wants to know why there aren't more courses 0:32:08.560 --> 0:32:11.680 using micro contours in the fairway that lead to non 0:32:11.760 --> 0:32:12.440 level lies. 0:32:16.120 --> 0:32:20.640 Unfortunately, the reason for that is because a lot of 0:32:20.720 --> 0:32:26.640 people think it's poor work. You know, the contractor would 0:32:26.680 --> 0:32:30.000 look bad if he didn't make the fairway look perfectly groomed, 0:32:30.440 --> 0:32:35.320 or the superintendent would look bad if if you couldn't 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:37.560 mow all those little bumps just perfectly. 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:41.240 It's funny. We did a you know, we've been working on. 0:32:41.280 --> 0:32:45.280 Woodhall Spa in England and there's a hole there that 0:32:45.360 --> 0:32:47.280 I had him clear out a bunch of trees to 0:32:47.320 --> 0:32:49.360 the right of the hole and restore some fairway to 0:32:49.400 --> 0:32:52.640 the right. And you know, we did all the work 0:32:52.680 --> 0:32:55.040 in the dirt last winter and I hadn't seen it 0:32:55.080 --> 0:32:59.880 with grass on it. And I went back it was 0:33:00.040 --> 0:33:02.800 I just came from there. We've been doing the second 0:33:02.800 --> 0:33:06.840 phase of our work this winter and I just once 0:33:07.000 --> 0:33:09.040 walked around the six holes that we did last year 0:33:09.640 --> 0:33:12.440 and I walked this fairway and I was like really 0:33:12.520 --> 0:33:15.440 rugged and even, and I was like, oh man, they 0:33:15.440 --> 0:33:19.720 didn't spend a lot of time finishing the fairway that 0:33:19.760 --> 0:33:21.680 I added, and then I looked over at the rest 0:33:21.680 --> 0:33:24.360 of the fairway and it was exactly like that. I 0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:28.800 was like, good for that. It would have really looked 0:33:28.840 --> 0:33:34.480 out a place if they'd done too much. But the 0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:38.520 high point the fairways were very uneven like that, and 0:33:38.600 --> 0:33:40.959 everybody thought that we just did a crappy job. They 0:33:40.960 --> 0:33:43.960 couldn't imagine that we wanted to leave some of that 0:33:44.080 --> 0:33:47.560 stuff in to be more random. It's really hard to 0:33:47.680 --> 0:33:49.640 it's really hard to do. It's really hard to get 0:33:49.640 --> 0:33:55.320 everybody to accept. And certainly the more you know, if 0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:59.080 you're if you're working with a piece of ground that 0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:02.800 it wasn't by trees and you didn't have to reshape 0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:05.480 it very much, then there's a lot of that natural 0:34:05.520 --> 0:34:09.319 wrinkle in it, and maybe it's saving you to not 0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:12.960 take it out. But in most cases it seems like, 0:34:13.440 --> 0:34:15.880 you know, if you're if you're having a clear trees 0:34:15.960 --> 0:34:20.520 and clean up the fairway, or or you're having to 0:34:20.760 --> 0:34:26.359 shape the fairway, then it's it's hard to make that 0:34:26.480 --> 0:34:29.160 kind of little wrinkle in the fairway and have it 0:34:29.160 --> 0:34:30.160 look natural at all. 0:34:31.320 --> 0:34:36.080 Yeah, it's I think those little contours are another thing that, 0:34:36.360 --> 0:34:38.360 like we've talked about with a couple of things, like 0:34:38.960 --> 0:34:42.400 that's something that gets in good players' heads. And you know, 0:34:42.520 --> 0:34:46.400 the fifteen twenty handicap doesn't really even recognize, you know, 0:34:46.440 --> 0:34:48.600 if there's like a just a subtle side hill. 0:34:49.719 --> 0:34:54.000 Yes, and you know, and and the more extreme versions too. 0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:56.320 I mean, one of my favorite holes in the world 0:34:56.360 --> 0:34:58.800 is that is a par five at Crystal Downs, the 0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:03.239 eighth hole, and if you're playing it into the wind 0:35:03.280 --> 0:35:05.520 where most people will drive the ball as down in 0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:09.040 a bowl and there's all these bumpy conters and you 0:35:09.080 --> 0:35:11.880 know you can get it's about fifty to fifty that 0:35:11.960 --> 0:35:16.560 you'll draw like an awkward stance with the ball sitting 0:35:16.560 --> 0:35:19.560 on a downhill and a bump pretty close in front 0:35:19.600 --> 0:35:22.400 of it, and it's like, you know, you're on a 0:35:22.400 --> 0:35:24.360 par five and you're a long way from the green 0:35:24.400 --> 0:35:28.239 and you're thinking, I can't hit a forewood here. You know, 0:35:28.280 --> 0:35:30.200 it's just gonna hit right into that bump. I mean, 0:35:30.200 --> 0:35:33.560 I got to hit like six iron or seven iron 0:35:33.640 --> 0:35:36.200 or something to make sure I get it over the bump. 0:35:36.600 --> 0:35:38.279 And then if I do that, I probably won't even 0:35:38.320 --> 0:35:41.719 be able to reach the green. In three and you know, 0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:44.120 so that's the kind of thing that most guys would say, well, 0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:49.000 that's completely unfair, but no, that's just random. And you 0:35:49.040 --> 0:35:51.799 know that could have happened to your opponent instead of you, 0:35:51.880 --> 0:35:53.040 and you wouldn't be complaining that. 0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:56.840 Yeah, that whole On the next shot, there's all the 0:35:56.960 --> 0:35:59.719 kinds of contours too on the up by the green, 0:35:59.760 --> 0:36:06.640 which is really cool. So this is uh, I get 0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:09.840 to use quotes and use a profanity like we were 0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:13.600 talking about before we got on the podcast. So what 0:36:13.800 --> 0:36:16.680 is one feature you implement in your design that gives 0:36:16.680 --> 0:36:20.320 you the most personal joy when you look back upon completion? 0:36:20.840 --> 0:36:23.720 And by joy I mean the inner chuckle that says, huh, 0:36:23.800 --> 0:36:30.120 that's gonna fuck with them. 0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:34.839 That's from Ryan Gilbert. Okay, he wants to know the pain. 0:36:41.600 --> 0:36:48.120 It's funny how so many golfers assume that architects are 0:36:48.120 --> 0:36:53.120 trying to screw them, and you know that that we're 0:36:53.160 --> 0:36:56.359 all sadistic in some way, and you know, every every 0:36:56.400 --> 0:36:58.480 little trick we put out there is to hurt you 0:36:58.560 --> 0:37:03.319 instead of maybe help you. And you know it goes 0:37:03.360 --> 0:37:05.640 back to what I said about the old course. Every 0:37:05.719 --> 0:37:07.279 contra out there has a good side. 0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:08.080 And a bad side. 0:37:08.080 --> 0:37:10.880 So yeah, as much as that little bump that I 0:37:10.920 --> 0:37:14.120 put at the back of that green messed with your shot, 0:37:14.160 --> 0:37:15.880 and I get the only reason I get a chuckle 0:37:15.920 --> 0:37:19.799 out of it is because I know that you could 0:37:19.800 --> 0:37:22.359 have done something else. You know, if I really didn't 0:37:22.360 --> 0:37:24.879 give you anything else to do, then the joke would 0:37:24.880 --> 0:37:31.480 beyond me. But I think it's you know, for me, 0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:36.040 the joy is the little subtle stuff like that more 0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:36.960 than the big stuff. 0:37:38.760 --> 0:37:38.960 You know. 0:37:39.000 --> 0:37:41.760 By the same token, I've worked on some beautiful pieces 0:37:41.760 --> 0:37:44.320 of land, and I think that all of the guys 0:37:44.360 --> 0:37:48.839 that work for me, you know, what we're best at is. 0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:52.080 The esthetic part of it, and. 0:37:52.080 --> 0:37:55.799 The composition and making everything look like it fits and 0:37:55.880 --> 0:38:00.320 like it's been there forever. And people get really emotional. 0:38:00.040 --> 0:38:02.080 About it in a good way. You know. 0:38:02.840 --> 0:38:05.359 Sometimes they get emotional in a bad way, they get 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:06.680 really angry that some. 0:38:06.640 --> 0:38:08.400 Little contra affected them or whatever. 0:38:10.160 --> 0:38:12.719 Sometimes they get really emotional in a good way, either 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:15.000 because they get a good bounce or just because. 0:38:14.719 --> 0:38:16.759 They're they're. 0:38:19.120 --> 0:38:21.920 Excited or thrilled to be out on a place like 0:38:22.000 --> 0:38:24.080 Pacific Dunes and just take it all in. 0:38:25.200 --> 0:38:25.440 You know. 0:38:25.640 --> 0:38:27.520 I heard from a couple, well, I heard from one 0:38:27.560 --> 0:38:30.080 of the players who played in the I think it 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:33.840 was the women's mid am that they had there or 0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:34.520 the publics. 0:38:34.640 --> 0:38:35.640 I think it was the publics. 0:38:36.440 --> 0:38:41.560 One of the players said she she came off the 0:38:41.600 --> 0:38:43.719 third green and went down to the fourth tee and 0:38:43.920 --> 0:38:46.040 came around that corner for the first time and looked 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:46.760 down the fourth. 0:38:46.640 --> 0:38:49.759 Hall, and she cried because it was that beautiful. 0:38:50.920 --> 0:38:57.160 And you know, I don't think there's Architects don't talk 0:38:57.200 --> 0:39:00.920 about it that much, but there's you know, one of 0:39:00.920 --> 0:39:04.080 the reasons people like golf deep down is because it's 0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:05.279 a place where. 0:39:06.440 --> 0:39:07.759 It's safe to let. 0:39:07.719 --> 0:39:10.800 Your emotions out a little bit, you know, yell and 0:39:10.880 --> 0:39:13.640 screen for a good shot or curse at a bad shot. 0:39:14.600 --> 0:39:16.680 And you know, there's a lot of places you can't 0:39:16.719 --> 0:39:19.520 do that anymore. I mean, golf is one of the 0:39:19.520 --> 0:39:22.760 few places left. And I think that the good courses, 0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:26.840 you know, dial the knob up on that for both 0:39:26.880 --> 0:39:29.640 sides of the question, both giving you places that you 0:39:29.760 --> 0:39:35.000 curse and places that you get really excited. So I 0:39:35.000 --> 0:39:37.160 can't say that we think about that every day when 0:39:37.200 --> 0:39:42.600 we're building stuff directly, but I think our courses have 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:45.000 done a pretty good job of doing that. You know, 0:39:45.120 --> 0:39:48.760 for every little trick we're playing on you, we're also 0:39:48.880 --> 0:39:50.880 giving you something to be joyful about. 0:39:51.360 --> 0:39:54.920 Yeah, there's always, yeah, there's always the opposite side of 0:39:55.080 --> 0:39:58.640 every opposite side of every contour is such a it's 0:39:58.680 --> 0:40:02.000 almost like something that should be on a sign for 0:40:02.080 --> 0:40:04.319 every bad side of a contour, there's a good sign. 0:40:05.920 --> 0:40:08.120 There's there's a few contras I've built where it would 0:40:08.160 --> 0:40:12.400 be good if they were labeled for people. You know, 0:40:13.160 --> 0:40:16.560 if you are reading this sign from this direction, you 0:40:16.640 --> 0:40:17.360 made a mistake. 0:40:20.320 --> 0:40:23.960 So let's get some general kind of course and architects 0:40:23.960 --> 0:40:27.279 stuff to wrap up this GCA one oh one. We 0:40:27.440 --> 0:40:30.080 got tons of questions I think could be in another segment. 0:40:30.120 --> 0:40:36.680 We'll repurpose for different segments here. But so Panther Mike asks, 0:40:36.840 --> 0:40:41.160 outside the old course, what course slash architect has had 0:40:41.160 --> 0:40:42.760 the most significance on the game. 0:40:50.600 --> 0:40:52.920 You know, anytime people ask me questions. 0:40:52.560 --> 0:40:57.480 About the best or the most or anything, I'm always 0:40:57.920 --> 0:41:03.120 afraid to answer because because once you because when you've 0:41:03.160 --> 0:41:06.560 really seen you know, like I've been influenced by so 0:41:06.719 --> 0:41:08.799 many things that just picking one or two and saying 0:41:08.880 --> 0:41:11.239 that's the one, it's. 0:41:10.960 --> 0:41:15.480 Really hard for me to do. Like in Australia. 0:41:15.480 --> 0:41:19.160 There's no doubt that Alistair McKenzie going down there and 0:41:19.840 --> 0:41:22.879 working on Royal Melbourne had a huge effect on all 0:41:22.920 --> 0:41:26.080 of golf in Australia. You can point to that one 0:41:26.160 --> 0:41:30.360 guy on that trip just completely raising the bar for 0:41:30.400 --> 0:41:33.759 what architecture was. And he wasn't there long enough to 0:41:34.000 --> 0:41:36.279 build all that stuff. I mean he you know, he 0:41:36.360 --> 0:41:38.759 spent six weeks there and he spent a lot of 0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:43.920 time with two guys, Alex Russell who was a club 0:41:43.960 --> 0:41:47.000 champion at Royal Melbourne and kind of became his design 0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:50.840 associate for all the Australian work, and the greenkeeper, mic Morcambe, 0:41:50.800 --> 0:41:53.400 who was the guy who built most of that stuff. 0:41:54.200 --> 0:41:58.640 And you know, everything they built reflected what they learned 0:41:58.680 --> 0:42:03.400 from him, and everything that's come after in Australia is 0:42:03.440 --> 0:42:07.279 based on the impact that they had. But can you 0:42:07.360 --> 0:42:12.120 pick can you pick something like that for the entire 0:42:12.200 --> 0:42:12.880 world of golf? 0:42:12.920 --> 0:42:17.120 I don't know, you know. In Japan, irony of ironies. 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:24.040 The most influential single moment in architecture in Japan was 0:42:24.040 --> 0:42:27.080 that after World War Two, when the Americans were over 0:42:27.120 --> 0:42:32.080 there sort of making sure that the war was really 0:42:32.120 --> 0:42:39.000 over the best clubs in Tokyo had real problems growing grass. 0:42:39.320 --> 0:42:42.720 I mean, Tokyo's climate is like Atlanta. It gets cold 0:42:42.719 --> 0:42:45.360 in the winter, it's really hot and humid in the summer. 0:42:45.800 --> 0:42:49.000 Growing any kind of grass that will survive, that will 0:42:49.040 --> 0:42:53.279 survive both extremes, well, it's hard to do. And this 0:42:53.480 --> 0:42:57.520 general that was stationed over there said, well, in Georgia, 0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:00.920 we have a few courses that have like all alternate greens. 0:43:01.040 --> 0:43:06.400 One's bent grass and one's bermuda grass, and so in 0:43:06.400 --> 0:43:09.439 the winter you can play on the bank grass green. 0:43:09.480 --> 0:43:12.600 In the summer, when it gets too hot and humid, 0:43:12.640 --> 0:43:14.400 you can take the traffic off that and go on 0:43:14.440 --> 0:43:16.960 the other green. So some of the clubs around Tokyo 0:43:17.120 --> 0:43:20.080 did that, and then when they had a golf boom, 0:43:20.480 --> 0:43:22.880 everybody looked at the best courses around Tokyo and they 0:43:22.920 --> 0:43:24.960 had two greens. So they start building two greens on 0:43:25.000 --> 0:43:28.920 every golf hole, on every golf course for years and years, 0:43:29.000 --> 0:43:33.800 just because that's what the best course had. 0:43:34.120 --> 0:43:36.160 So I guess I've ducked that question. 0:43:36.760 --> 0:43:42.080 Yeah, you know, you know, you know, besides the old course, 0:43:42.160 --> 0:43:44.080 I guess the answer, the really answer to that question 0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:47.160 is old Tom Morris had the most impact. You know, 0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:51.279 some of what he designed was pretty simple and he 0:43:51.320 --> 0:43:53.279 did it in a day, and some of it he 0:43:53.360 --> 0:43:55.759 spent a lot more time and doesn't get enough credit for. 0:43:56.480 --> 0:44:00.440 But he was really the first golf course archety TechEd 0:44:00.760 --> 0:44:03.799 where it was somebody besides just the players deciding where 0:44:03.800 --> 0:44:07.799 the holes should be. And he worked on a lot 0:44:07.800 --> 0:44:11.719 of beautiful sites in Scotland that have influenced everything else. 0:44:13.160 --> 0:44:15.000 Yeah, he had a lot of influence. 0:44:15.520 --> 0:44:17.680 He's the he's kind of at the top of the 0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:21.360 tree where everything goes down from, you know, Sean Martin, 0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:26.640 he's uh, he asked another question of a similar nature, 0:44:26.960 --> 0:44:29.320 and we're just going to take the number out of it. Okay, 0:44:30.040 --> 0:44:33.320 what are the most influential designs in US history? 0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:47.040 Pine Valley certainly, you know, it had a tremendous impact 0:44:47.080 --> 0:44:51.080 on the architects of its day and sort of like 0:44:51.800 --> 0:44:56.040 raising the bar and also raising the bar on difficulty 0:44:56.080 --> 0:44:59.000 a little bit, and you know, everybody respected that course 0:44:59.040 --> 0:45:03.160 so much. And then it's had its influence again in 0:45:03.200 --> 0:45:06.400 the last thirty years, you know, being number one in 0:45:06.440 --> 0:45:09.800 the rankings of golf courses for most of this last 0:45:09.840 --> 0:45:14.399 twenty or thirty years has a tremendous impact on all 0:45:14.440 --> 0:45:17.719 of us as designers and what we're trying to do. 0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:20.960 Like one of the cliches about Pine Valley for years 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:24.399 was that it's so cool that you can't see any 0:45:24.440 --> 0:45:27.799 other hole from the hole you're on, and that wasn't true. 0:45:27.800 --> 0:45:31.320 When Pine Valley was built. You could see not entirely 0:45:31.360 --> 0:45:34.560 across it. But you know, there's ups and downs, but 0:45:35.280 --> 0:45:38.080 they had cleared most of the trees when they built it, 0:45:38.120 --> 0:45:40.320 and the trees have grown back in between the holes 0:45:40.320 --> 0:45:44.120 in the years since. So in the twenties it wasn't 0:45:44.160 --> 0:45:46.759 a tree lined and you could never see another hole, 0:45:47.200 --> 0:45:49.759 but by the seventies or eighties it had become that way. 0:45:49.880 --> 0:45:53.160 So you know, there were a lot of courses built 0:45:53.320 --> 0:45:55.720 on the premise that, oh, we want to isolate every 0:45:55.719 --> 0:45:59.240 hole from every other hole. Not necessarily a good influence. 0:46:00.280 --> 0:46:04.120 Like you know, it's not necessarily a good influence. 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:08.560 The idea that. 0:46:06.719 --> 0:46:09.799 That every single hole on the golf course, you know, 0:46:09.920 --> 0:46:12.440 needs to be spectacular. It needs to be something you 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:18.879 can make a postcard out of. You know, every hole 0:46:18.920 --> 0:46:21.800 on the golf course should contribute something to the hole. 0:46:22.560 --> 0:46:25.400 But there aren't many pieces of land like Pine Valley, 0:46:25.719 --> 0:46:30.839 and there aren't many courses that you know, can make 0:46:30.920 --> 0:46:36.680 their market be exclusively about single digit handicappers are the 0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:38.719 only ones they have to worry about getting around this 0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:45.279 golf course. We don't want other players. So you know, 0:46:45.400 --> 0:46:48.400 Pine Valley is not the best model for everybody, and 0:46:48.520 --> 0:46:53.520 yet it's been hugely impactful as a model for people today. 0:46:53.920 --> 0:46:58.759 You know, if you want to answer the question of 0:46:58.880 --> 0:47:02.640 why are so many monern courses too hard, Pine Valley 0:47:02.719 --> 0:47:06.080 is the answer. It's number one. So everybody thinks that's 0:47:06.080 --> 0:47:06.799 what they've got to do. 0:47:09.880 --> 0:47:16.080 For people that aren't kind of that don't have access, 0:47:16.640 --> 0:47:20.279 what are some courses that you would recommend them to 0:47:20.360 --> 0:47:23.320 go play that are open to the public, that could, 0:47:23.480 --> 0:47:27.240 you know, really be great architectural experiences. 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:29.160 This is from Justin Hulahan. 0:47:29.520 --> 0:47:32.120 Are we talking about are we limiting those to the 0:47:32.280 --> 0:47:35.480 United States for purposes of this discussion? Obviously in the 0:47:35.560 --> 0:47:39.920 UK most of those courses, I mean, the best single 0:47:39.960 --> 0:47:42.040 thing you can do is go to the UK for 0:47:42.040 --> 0:47:44.800 a few days because you can get on those courses. 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:47.680 You know, all you have to do is go to 0:47:48.760 --> 0:47:54.879 gullin North Barrack, Saint Andrew's Carnousti you're going to see 0:47:55.320 --> 0:47:58.839 more good public golf in a short span than you 0:47:58.880 --> 0:48:02.280 that I could get you driving back and forth across 0:48:02.320 --> 0:48:03.080 the United States. 0:48:03.280 --> 0:48:05.280 Kill Spendy too, spend. 0:48:06.560 --> 0:48:07.320 You kill Spindy. 0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:14.000 They wouldn't find you wouldn't turn down that little lane. 0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:15.480 As far as you asked. 0:48:19.440 --> 0:48:21.760 God, it's hard for me to think about the whole US. 0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:23.600 And you know, I mean. 0:48:23.480 --> 0:48:28.440 There's there are underrated good golf courses in every region. 0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:37.719 I've written a book about that, partly about that. But 0:48:37.760 --> 0:48:39.920 it's a hard question to answer because a lot of 0:48:41.719 --> 0:48:44.280 you know, anything that gets a reputation for being great, 0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:49.359 the price goes up accordingly, Like you can go play 0:48:49.400 --> 0:48:52.080 all the courses at Bandon Dunes. There's a really good answer, 0:48:52.120 --> 0:48:56.080 but they're not so inexpensive to play anymore, or Pasa Tiempo, 0:48:56.120 --> 0:48:57.320 which we've talked about. 0:48:58.600 --> 0:48:59.160 Tough ticket. 0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:02.560 Now, any of the courses that make the top hundred 0:49:02.719 --> 0:49:08.480 automatically price goes up. So you've got to look past that, 0:49:08.719 --> 0:49:12.640 and you've got to you know, a good way is 0:49:12.800 --> 0:49:17.719 just to look for like lesser known courses by any 0:49:17.840 --> 0:49:22.440 architect that you raid highly. You know, some of them 0:49:22.440 --> 0:49:27.560 are terribly maintained or don't have the money to do 0:49:27.600 --> 0:49:30.920 anything with and some of them are really overgrown, but 0:49:32.200 --> 0:49:36.799 underneath usually there's a good product there for people to 0:49:36.840 --> 0:49:39.400 see and it won't cost a lot of money because 0:49:41.320 --> 0:49:42.719 that's why they don't have a lot of money to 0:49:42.719 --> 0:49:43.200 maintain it. 0:49:43.480 --> 0:49:44.600 Yeah, that's it. 0:49:45.320 --> 0:49:47.080 That's why I usually do when I go to a 0:49:47.120 --> 0:49:52.399 new area, I either read Tom's book It's the Confidential 0:49:52.400 --> 0:49:55.719 Guide wherever I'm going, or I or I look for 0:49:55.840 --> 0:49:59.160 like little uni courses that were designed by you know 0:50:00.200 --> 0:50:03.720 Ross's website, the Don Ross Society as a full listing 0:50:03.920 --> 0:50:05.799 and you can almost always find one of those. 0:50:06.320 --> 0:50:07.919 Or I don't know, you know, I don't know if 0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:13.799 the old Cornish and Witten book the I think they 0:50:13.840 --> 0:50:19.000 renamed it to the Architects of Golf, you know, that 0:50:19.160 --> 0:50:22.160 had full biographies of architects and lists of everything that 0:50:22.200 --> 0:50:22.839 they worked on. 0:50:23.080 --> 0:50:23.319 You know. 0:50:23.520 --> 0:50:25.399 That's how I found Crystal Downs for the first time. 0:50:25.440 --> 0:50:27.800 It was just you know, reading a list of Alistair 0:50:27.880 --> 0:50:30.680 McKenzie courses and it was on there with no other 0:50:30.719 --> 0:50:34.560 information about him, Like where is that? And why have 0:50:34.640 --> 0:50:37.279 I not heard of that at all? Because I had 0:50:37.800 --> 0:50:42.520 the first time I ever saw the name. So yeah, 0:50:42.640 --> 0:50:46.640 there's I don't know that there's any more hidden gems 0:50:46.680 --> 0:50:48.759 out there that I would think are tens. 0:50:48.480 --> 0:50:49.240 On my scale. 0:50:49.840 --> 0:50:55.200 But there's still a lot of quality that gets overlooked 0:50:55.239 --> 0:50:58.160 because somebody's not taking care of it or it's. 0:50:58.000 --> 0:50:59.360 Just in a place that people don't go. 0:51:00.120 --> 0:51:02.000 Yeah. 0:51:02.120 --> 0:51:06.359 With that, it's a segue into I forgot to write 0:51:06.440 --> 0:51:07.399 down the name of. 0:51:07.320 --> 0:51:08.760 This who asked this question? 0:51:09.320 --> 0:51:10.919 But anonymous? 0:51:11.000 --> 0:51:15.080 Anonymous, Yes, anonymous. It's a great curve of your enthusiasm 0:51:15.360 --> 0:51:18.759 when the guy, you know, he talks about anonymous donors. 0:51:19.160 --> 0:51:23.480 But who are the architects that every golfer should see 0:51:23.480 --> 0:51:26.279 in their lifetime? And we'll keep this us like if 0:51:26.520 --> 0:51:28.919 you're gonna I think this might actually be a better 0:51:29.000 --> 0:51:32.440 quest than your top one hundred quests is going to see. 0:51:32.520 --> 0:51:35.719 I'm going to see the work of these architects. 0:51:37.600 --> 0:51:44.840 So how do you are we saying like a group 0:51:44.920 --> 0:51:48.560 of architects that will represent different points on the spectrum, 0:51:48.800 --> 0:51:53.640 or you know these two or three particular architects tip 0:51:53.760 --> 0:51:55.160 done a lot of good. You know, you can spend 0:51:55.200 --> 0:52:00.040 your life going and seeing Donald Ross courses. Yea, And 0:52:00.360 --> 0:52:02.000 I think I read something the other day there's some 0:52:02.000 --> 0:52:04.600 guy that's played like three hundred and fifty Donald Ross 0:52:04.640 --> 0:52:08.520 courses out of I think the list was that he 0:52:08.600 --> 0:52:11.240 only did just over four hundred, and I'm not sure 0:52:11.440 --> 0:52:13.879 if that's true. It's hard to imagine that three hundred 0:52:13.880 --> 0:52:15.600 and fifty of them are still open. That's a pretty 0:52:15.640 --> 0:52:25.600 good record, but for a variety of different things. You know, 0:52:25.640 --> 0:52:28.880 it's so easy to name all the traditional great architects 0:52:29.000 --> 0:52:32.719 Ross and tilling Hast and McKenzie and McDonald. I mean, 0:52:32.800 --> 0:52:34.799 you have to see a McDonald course or a Seth 0:52:34.880 --> 0:52:39.600 Rayner course to see the template holes they built and 0:52:40.000 --> 0:52:43.040 how distinctive they are. If you've seen you have to 0:52:43.080 --> 0:52:46.080 see two of their courses to understand that they did 0:52:46.160 --> 0:52:49.040 use pretty much the same concepts from one piece of 0:52:49.120 --> 0:52:56.120 land to the next. I'm a huge fan of McKenzie's work, obviously, 0:52:56.440 --> 0:53:00.759 and there's not many McKenzie courses in America that you 0:53:00.800 --> 0:53:03.000 can go wrong and have it not be a really 0:53:03.040 --> 0:53:05.080 great course. So that's a pretty easy pick. 0:53:07.440 --> 0:53:11.480 You know. George Thomas did not build very many golf courses. 0:53:11.160 --> 0:53:17.000 But they're very distinctive. Those three courses in La La 0:53:17.080 --> 0:53:20.440 country Club and Riviera and bell Air where we're working now, 0:53:21.800 --> 0:53:23.960 there's so many holes on each of them, that are 0:53:24.080 --> 0:53:27.600 really distinctive and you've never seen anything like it. 0:53:30.440 --> 0:53:33.800 So he should definitely be on the list. Perry Maxwell 0:53:33.800 --> 0:53:35.120 should definitely be on the list. 0:53:35.600 --> 0:53:41.440 I mean, lots of architects get credit or blame for 0:53:41.520 --> 0:53:47.480 building severe greens. Maxwell was the master at building greens 0:53:47.520 --> 0:53:50.960 that were so distinct and made so much difference in 0:53:51.000 --> 0:53:53.200 how you played the hole that he almost didn't need 0:53:53.239 --> 0:53:54.680 to do a lot else. He didn't build a lot 0:53:54.719 --> 0:53:57.840 of fairway bunkers because he knew that was just like 0:53:58.000 --> 0:54:00.919 window dressing. You know, you still wanted to be over 0:54:01.000 --> 0:54:02.799 on one side of the hole, whether there was a 0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:05.200 bunker there or not, so you didn't really need something 0:54:05.239 --> 0:54:06.200 to amplify that. 0:54:10.880 --> 0:54:11.120 You know. 0:54:11.320 --> 0:54:20.120 Among more recent architects, you have to see a pet 0:54:20.200 --> 0:54:21.239 Die course and. 0:54:23.360 --> 0:54:23.680 You know. 0:54:26.120 --> 0:54:29.680 To appreciate the severity of it, and at the same time, 0:54:31.600 --> 0:54:38.400 you know the they're very angular. Maybe the angler is 0:54:38.400 --> 0:54:40.600 not the right word there. You know, there's very soft 0:54:40.719 --> 0:54:47.080 curvy lines to those hazards that make them tough. You know, 0:54:48.160 --> 0:54:50.120 I think you have to see a Mike Strants course. 0:54:50.440 --> 0:54:54.400 I mean, Mike was Mike was really an artist. He 0:54:54.400 --> 0:54:58.240 could draw, and some of the things that he built 0:54:58.480 --> 0:55:02.960 almost look like caricatures of golf holes more than real 0:55:03.000 --> 0:55:07.759 golf holes. I mean, they're really exaggerated versions. But you know, 0:55:07.920 --> 0:55:11.360 he was also a real sculptor when it came to 0:55:11.400 --> 0:55:13.480 building hazards. I don't know that many people have ever 0:55:13.520 --> 0:55:20.560 built hazards they'll look better than his. I don't know 0:55:20.560 --> 0:55:22.319 how many you want me to list. That's a good 0:55:22.400 --> 0:55:25.920 short list of seeing some really different styles. 0:55:27.280 --> 0:55:33.799 The uh yeah, they it's all great architects with very 0:55:33.840 --> 0:55:37.560 distinctly and unique It's a good variety amongst that group. 0:55:40.200 --> 0:55:41.560 I can't remember who I had on. 0:55:41.600 --> 0:55:43.920 I think it might have been Mike Devreese said that 0:55:44.000 --> 0:55:47.880 Perry Maxwell's career was hurt most of anybody because of 0:55:47.920 --> 0:55:51.400 the Great Depression is when he had finally reached his peak. 0:55:51.320 --> 0:55:56.279 Which yeah, for sure, you know, I mean, most of 0:55:56.320 --> 0:56:01.000 the other famous Golden Golden Age architects, you know, made 0:56:01.040 --> 0:56:03.560 hay and the boom in the twenties, but Maxwell was 0:56:05.719 --> 0:56:08.399 just getting started really in the mid twenties. He only 0:56:08.400 --> 0:56:10.840 built a handful of courses before the Depression hit. He 0:56:10.920 --> 0:56:13.240 was lucky that, I mean, we wouldn't know anything about 0:56:13.239 --> 0:56:16.640 his work except for in the depression. One of the 0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:21.279 few areas that wasn't hit hard was like Oklahoma, Kansas, 0:56:22.120 --> 0:56:24.120 Texas because there was still. 0:56:23.960 --> 0:56:24.800 All money there. 0:56:25.320 --> 0:56:27.720 So that's when he built southern hills and prairie dunes 0:56:27.760 --> 0:56:28.600 and colonial. 0:56:29.040 --> 0:56:33.680 He redid colonial. That's what funded his best work. 0:56:34.440 --> 0:56:40.360 Yeah, well, you know we got Richard here, and this 0:56:40.480 --> 0:56:42.520 is kind of maybe I should have asked this before, 0:56:42.600 --> 0:56:45.200 but what would what is the summer reading that you 0:56:45.360 --> 0:56:48.880 just signed before your golf course architecture one on one class, 0:56:51.680 --> 0:56:53.600 if you were a professor. 0:56:54.760 --> 0:57:03.640 Summer reading, you know, there's four or five old books 0:57:03.680 --> 0:57:07.600 on golf course architecture. You know, lots of architects write 0:57:07.640 --> 0:57:12.960 books because it's a good marketing tool and you want 0:57:13.000 --> 0:57:17.040 to get your ideas out there, and they do lead 0:57:17.160 --> 0:57:21.480 directly to jobs. The most the first example I can 0:57:21.560 --> 0:57:23.840 think of, sitting on the table right in front of me, 0:57:23.920 --> 0:57:27.240 is Robert Hunter's book The Links, which I think I 0:57:27.280 --> 0:57:31.000 think Hunter's book and Tom Simpson's book The Architectural Side 0:57:31.000 --> 0:57:33.320 of Golf are the two most fun. 0:57:33.080 --> 0:57:35.280 Books to read about golf course architecture. 0:57:35.720 --> 0:57:38.560 They don't try to explain the details and draw a 0:57:38.560 --> 0:57:42.200 bunch of golf holes and and sell you on their 0:57:42.280 --> 0:57:45.720 style as much as some of the other architects, did Hunter, 0:57:46.040 --> 0:57:47.560 You know, he was only kind of a golf court. 0:57:47.600 --> 0:57:49.360 He worked with Mackenzie a little bit, but he wasn't 0:57:49.400 --> 0:57:52.920 really he was not trying to establish his career by 0:57:52.920 --> 0:57:55.320 writing this book. He was writing it to try to 0:57:55.360 --> 0:58:01.840 explain it to everybody else but Hunter's book. The guy 0:58:01.960 --> 0:58:05.360 who the guy who developed Crystal Downs when he did 0:58:05.400 --> 0:58:08.280 the when he laid out the housing plan, he built 0:58:08.280 --> 0:58:11.439 a little nine hole course to go with it. That's 0:58:11.960 --> 0:58:14.400 mostly where the front nine is now and the tenth 0:58:14.440 --> 0:58:19.840 and eighteenth holes, and he just did it himself. And 0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:23.560 then a friend of his. Hunter's book was published in 0:58:23.600 --> 0:58:26.680 nineteen twenty six, so it's like the year after this 0:58:26.760 --> 0:58:29.120 guy built the little course himself and a friend of 0:58:29.160 --> 0:58:32.680 his gave him a Hunter's book and he read it 0:58:32.720 --> 0:58:36.600 from cover to cover and he was like, I think 0:58:36.640 --> 0:58:40.280 I screwed up. It sounds like there's more to this 0:58:41.040 --> 0:58:45.240 than what I knew. So he wrote Hunter a letter 0:58:45.480 --> 0:58:49.880 and said, I built myself a golf course on this 0:58:50.000 --> 0:58:52.240 really nice piece of ground, and I don't really think 0:58:52.280 --> 0:58:54.760 I did very well with it, you know, do you 0:58:54.800 --> 0:58:57.600 have any advice for me? And Hunter wrote him back 0:58:57.600 --> 0:59:01.360 and said, well, Alistair McKenzie is is out here in 0:59:01.400 --> 0:59:05.440 California working on a couple of things, but he's going 0:59:05.520 --> 0:59:08.000 to go back to England in the fall, so he's 0:59:08.040 --> 0:59:11.800 going to take the train past Chicago. So if you want, 0:59:12.040 --> 0:59:14.200 I'll get him to stop and come up and see 0:59:14.240 --> 0:59:16.840 your land. And that's how Crystal Downs came to be, 0:59:18.000 --> 0:59:20.200 or the Crystal Downs that we know. Otherwise it would 0:59:20.200 --> 0:59:21.960 be a little nine hole course by the guy, by 0:59:21.960 --> 0:59:28.080 the founder. So that was kind of a tangent. But 0:59:29.640 --> 0:59:33.480 Hunter's book and Simpson's book, you know, they're more about 0:59:33.480 --> 0:59:39.440 the fun of golf and how architecture interacts with that. 0:59:40.200 --> 0:59:43.360 They're not the how to books like George Thomas wrote, 0:59:44.440 --> 0:59:48.520 or like my book The Anatomy of a Golf Course. 0:59:51.120 --> 0:59:54.760 McKenzie's is sort of in between. You know, he has 0:59:54.800 --> 0:59:59.560 his bullet points of that he wants to make and 0:59:59.560 --> 1:00:02.439 and how important it is to hire a good golf 1:00:02.440 --> 1:00:05.680 course architect so you don't have to keep changing things 1:00:05.720 --> 1:00:09.720 over the years. But there's a lot of fun little 1:00:10.400 --> 1:00:13.040 anecdotes and stories in it too, so it's a fun read. 1:00:13.240 --> 1:00:15.280 I wish I could write something that engaging. 1:00:16.560 --> 1:00:19.360 It's the thing I find amazing is like how these 1:00:19.400 --> 1:00:24.520 guys like the way they wrote like these like short 1:00:24.560 --> 1:00:26.960 quipp ads that were so you know, simple as like 1:00:27.320 --> 1:00:29.840 you know, like Hunters and it's still funny, like Hunters 1:00:29.920 --> 1:00:31.960 is of one of his quotes. It is like, you know, 1:00:32.480 --> 1:00:35.640 long par four after long par four is kind of 1:00:35.720 --> 1:00:37.960 like a cup of watery soup. 1:00:38.680 --> 1:00:42.680 You know, it's uh Mackenzie's. 1:00:42.840 --> 1:00:50.600 Mackenzie's is like, you know, how do I get how 1:00:50.600 --> 1:00:54.640 do I make natural looking contour? Hire the biggest fool 1:00:54.640 --> 1:00:56.320 in the village and tell them to make it flat, 1:00:58.120 --> 1:01:03.240 which apparently I learned later was about a specific person. 1:01:02.960 --> 1:01:08.439 In England that he had dealt with a smart guy. 1:01:09.960 --> 1:01:13.840 Let's we gotta do a couple overrated, underrated, and then 1:01:13.880 --> 1:01:16.480 we're we're wrapping up g c A one on one. 1:01:17.840 --> 1:01:20.560 We'll have to do one uh two to one in 1:01:20.640 --> 1:01:25.400 another pod. All right, first, overrated, underrated. 1:01:25.120 --> 1:01:31.880 Rough terribly overrated over the years. I'm not sure if 1:01:31.880 --> 1:01:34.440 it still is, but overrated. 1:01:34.600 --> 1:01:40.280 It's coming coming back to the to the pendulum. 1:01:40.360 --> 1:01:43.080 All right, a music one the doors. 1:01:44.960 --> 1:01:47.440 I'm not qualified to answer that one. I know a 1:01:47.480 --> 1:01:49.200 little of their music, but not. 1:01:49.360 --> 1:01:50.160 Enough to say. 1:01:50.360 --> 1:01:55.640 All right, I'm gonna say underrated, okay, and then so 1:01:55.680 --> 1:01:57.600 I'll listen to more of their music and get back 1:01:57.600 --> 1:01:58.000 to you on. 1:01:57.880 --> 1:01:59.360 That next one. 1:02:00.120 --> 1:02:09.000 Golf in Ohio, I want to say overrated. There's a 1:02:09.000 --> 1:02:15.520 lot of good courses in Ohio, and but you know, Columbus, 1:02:16.000 --> 1:02:19.880 partly because Jack Nicholess comes from there, partly because Pete 1:02:19.920 --> 1:02:24.760 Die some of his early career was around there. Columbus 1:02:24.800 --> 1:02:29.080 is very well known for having five or six great 1:02:29.120 --> 1:02:33.040 golf courses right around there. But hell, Philadelphia has twenty 1:02:33.040 --> 1:02:38.040 five and New York has fifty. So Ohio has gotten 1:02:38.040 --> 1:02:40.040 a lot of credit for those five or six really 1:02:40.040 --> 1:02:40.560 good ones. 1:02:42.120 --> 1:02:46.560 All right, that's a wrap. We'll be back podcast too. 1:02:46.880 --> 1:02:49.160 We'll be coming out in a couple of weeks and 1:02:49.200 --> 1:02:54.440 it'll be on seth Rayner, Wili and the Sony Open. 1:02:54.960 --> 1:02:57.480 You've been listening to the Egg podcast. 1:02:57.920 --> 1:03:00.600 We do the digging for you to later. 1:03:00.680 --> 1:03:01.880 It was acted in Sat