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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. This is

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Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and it is Saturday. So again we're going

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Speaker 1: to the Vault once more, this time for the episode

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Speaker 1: another Enigmatic underwater Image. This is a continuation on the

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Speaker 1: last Vault episode we did, where we're looking at difficult

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Speaker 1: to analyze images from the deep ocean and how they

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Speaker 1: can spin off them in the minds of onlookers into

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Speaker 1: paranormal intrigue. This one originally published eight fifteen, twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: Here we go, let's dive in.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick. And hey, we're back to anomalous imagery.

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Speaker 3: In the pre episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind,

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Speaker 3: we were looking at some photographs that people have wanted

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Speaker 3: to sort into the proof of Aliens Confirmed column, and

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Speaker 3: we ended up talking about reasons why that's not necessarily

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Speaker 3: a wise or well informed move, and we thought we

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Speaker 3: might come back to talk about more images of this sort.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, here we are, Yeah, in the

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Speaker 1: last episode, and this is this is a situation where

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Speaker 1: it's probably helpful if you listen to that last episode,

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Speaker 1: but it's not necessarily a part one in part two,

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Speaker 1: so I don't know do what you will regarding these episodes.

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Speaker 1: But in the last episode, we discussed the so called

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Speaker 1: el tennan antenna, a deep sea photograph of something taken

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Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty four that ultimately led to a positive

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Speaker 1: identification of a specific species of deep sea sponge, but

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Speaker 1: also fed a great deal of paranormal and ufology speculation

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Speaker 1: about alien technology and global energy grids and the like.

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Speaker 1: We discussed how images and data like this that dwell

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Speaker 1: in a kind of low res realm of evidence often

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Speaker 1: play into arguments for supernatural or other worldly explanations instead

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Speaker 1: of mundane natural world explanations.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So we were developing an idea somewhat jumping

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Speaker 3: off of some offhand terminology use in comments I've heard

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Speaker 3: in interviews with a science writer and skeptical UFO researcher

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Speaker 3: named Mick West, and I think the phrase I had

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Speaker 3: heard him use at some point was the low information zone.

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Speaker 3: But we were also talking about the idea of the

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Speaker 3: low resolution zone, and so the idea we were developing

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Speaker 3: was that it's in cases of evidence containing less information

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Speaker 3: or existing in a space of lower resolution that supernatural

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Speaker 3: or alien explanations tend to retain the aura of viability.

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Speaker 3: They seem to some people like this might be a

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Speaker 3: good explanation, And it's in cases of high resolution or

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Speaker 3: high information where the photo, if it's a photo where

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Speaker 3: it's like really sharp and taken from multiple angles, and

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Speaker 3: we have a good idea exactly where and when it

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Speaker 3: was taken, maybe other people can go check up on it,

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Speaker 3: people with relevant knowledge have had a look at it.

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Speaker 3: These are the cases that end up very very often

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Speaker 3: having pretty clear explanations from within the known range of

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Speaker 3: natural causes. In other words, there seems to be a

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Speaker 3: pattern where a fuzzy photo creates way more mythology than

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Speaker 3: a sharp one. And I think this is applical, applicable

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Speaker 3: in the broader sense, not just in pure resolution of photos,

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Speaker 3: but in the general sense of information like evidence, this

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Speaker 3: kind of vague and fuzzy and not well situated within

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Speaker 3: an informational context seems oh yeah, maybe that is aliens.

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Speaker 3: And the further you turn up the resolution, the more

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Speaker 3: accurate information and context you have, the more often it

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Speaker 3: seems like, oh yeah, that's a plastic bag, or that's

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Speaker 3: an airplane, or that's a constellation of stars.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And as we discussed in the last episode, and

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Speaker 1: we'll continue to discuss here, to whatever extent, you can

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Speaker 1: also cut out the context for the image, or ignore

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Speaker 1: the context and or ignore the expertise in a given

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Speaker 1: field that could be vital to understanding what you're looking

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Speaker 1: at exactly.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So the background knowledge of the observer can also

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Speaker 3: be one of the information states, and that can be

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Speaker 3: high information or low.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's not necessarily a situation either where someone

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Speaker 1: is like willfully, I refuse to listen to the experts

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Speaker 1: because because you know, I know what I see. You know,

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Speaker 1: sometimes it's maybe a little more nuanced than that. So

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Speaker 1: I do want to acknowledge that. But just throwing that

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Speaker 1: out there as well. We'll come back to the idea

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Speaker 1: as we roll farward.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 3: Another one of the ideas we talked about in the

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Speaker 3: last episode was how popular it seems underwater images in

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Speaker 3: particular are in the UFO slash UAP and general fringe

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Speaker 3: explanation idea space. Of course, the Eltannan object was an

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Speaker 3: underwater photo, and I mentioned in the last episode the

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Speaker 3: idea that apparently anomalous. Underwater images are especially useful nucleation

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Speaker 3: points for these types of narratives because they're sort of

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Speaker 3: inherently low resolution or low information. The details are often obscured.

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Speaker 3: Images of things underwater often look weird, but you can't

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Speaker 3: tell exactly what they are, which means you can start

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Speaker 3: making up whatever explanation you find the most exciting. And

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Speaker 3: I was thinking about how underwater imagery often qualifies as

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Speaker 3: low information evidence in multiple dimensions at once, So like

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Speaker 3: the original image is usually grainy and indistinct if it's

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Speaker 3: taken in visible light, like it's a photograph taken invisible light,

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Speaker 3: light conditions are usually low, and sometimes they're is you know,

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Speaker 3: is something obscuring the image in the water. Maybe the

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Speaker 3: water is cloudy, maybe not. Sometimes the image is not

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Speaker 3: even based on visible light. Maybe we're looking at a

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Speaker 3: sonar image or something like that, which further complicates your

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Speaker 3: ability to identify what it is you're looking at. And

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Speaker 3: sometimes things are even obscured in other ways, like partially

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Speaker 3: buried or have things on top of them. Beyond all this,

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Speaker 3: objects and formations that may be common underwater do not

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Speaker 3: seem common to people who spend their lives on land

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Speaker 3: and on the surface. Think of the sponge we talked

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Speaker 3: about last time. If you lived on the ocean floor,

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Speaker 3: you'd probably recognize that. You would be like a tree

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Speaker 3: to you. You know, you've seen lots of these before,

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Speaker 3: but not living on the ocean floor. That's totally weird.

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Speaker 3: You've never seen anything like it. You have no idea

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Speaker 3: what it could be.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, as we touched on in that one, the so

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Speaker 1: called antenna occurred as a singular object without any fellow

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Speaker 1: antenna around it in this one photograph. Previous dredges in

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Speaker 1: the deep ocean had revealed places where they seem to

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Speaker 1: be quite numerous.

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Speaker 3: That's right. Sometimes they're kind of a forest, but in

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Speaker 3: this case it wasn't. It was just one standing alone

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Speaker 3: in the image. So that I don't know, that mean

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Speaker 3: to seem more monolithic and kind of strange and dangerous

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Speaker 3: and inviting of calling out for some kind of otherworldly explanation. Finally,

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Speaker 3: I was thinking about one more thing about the low

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Speaker 3: information nature of underwater images, especially in the case of

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Speaker 3: deep sea objects. It's difficult, expensive, and sometimes impossible for

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Speaker 3: other people to check the object for themselves because it's

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Speaker 3: on the bottom of the ocean, So you are unlikely

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Speaker 3: to get somebody else imaging the same thing with different

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Speaker 3: equipment in different conditions to get more context and clarity.

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Speaker 3: Unless it's like a really famous and valuable thing and

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Speaker 3: you've you know, published coordinates of exactly where it is,

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Speaker 3: there's like huge interest in it. Maybe, but like for

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Speaker 3: the most part, if you're talking about something on the

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Speaker 3: bottom of the ocean, whatever imagery you release of it

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Speaker 3: that you initially produce, it's that you know that that's

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Speaker 3: going to be all there is.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, Because I mean, ultimately, whether your idea is

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Speaker 1: based in just pure scientific inquiry or if it's based

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Speaker 1: in some sort of paranormal interest or some sort of

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Speaker 1: fringe theory, you're still going to have to somehow get

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Speaker 1: that funding together to pay for an expedition to an

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Speaker 1: extreme environment. And you know, are the numbers going to

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Speaker 1: add up at the end of the day.

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Speaker 3: And in some cases, I think it might be more

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Speaker 3: financially lucrative for an object to remain in the low

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Speaker 3: information zone than it would be to increase the information

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Speaker 3: because that might well dispel the mystique surrounding it.

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Speaker 1: Exactly. Yes, Because as we touched on in the first episode.

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Speaker 1: You know, these images become kind of articles of faith

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Speaker 1: within a given belief system, within a given worldview, and yeah,

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Speaker 1: you go down there, there's you've got to admit, okay,

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Speaker 1: you know, lining up with your hopes and dreams. Maybe

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Speaker 1: you'll get that high res image of this thing and

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Speaker 1: it will literally change the way we think about ourselves

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Speaker 1: and we think about the world. But what are the

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Speaker 1: chances that you'll just know it'll be that face on

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Speaker 1: Mars scenario, you know where Oh well, you realize that

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Speaker 1: once you have some different imagery, some different information to

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Speaker 1: go on, the face is not there at all, and

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Speaker 1: then how are you going to feel?

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Speaker 3: So this brings us to the particular underwater image that

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Speaker 3: you dug up, Rob that we're going to talk about today.

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Speaker 3: This image is the so called Baltic Sea anomaly. Would

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Speaker 3: you like to introduce it?

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Speaker 1: Sure? Yeah. I found this the way probably I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of people find it is that you find

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Speaker 1: these various lists of strange, unexplained things beneath the ocean,

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Speaker 1: and they're generally they're generally a weird array of objects

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Speaker 1: and alleged objects, some of which are verified realities, some

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Speaker 1: are you know, blurry, low res images. But yeah, this

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Speaker 1: and this sonar image was taken by Swedish Ocean X

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Speaker 1: on the floor of the Northern Baltic Sea at the

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Speaker 1: center of the Gulf of Bothnia in June twenty eleven

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Speaker 1: during a hunt for I believe possible sunken treasure. So

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Speaker 1: they were on the lookout with their imagery for you know,

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Speaker 1: things that might be ships, things that might be man

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Speaker 1: made objects on the bottom. Now, the image that came

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Speaker 1: out of all of this, the sonar image, has captured

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Speaker 1: the imagination of ufologists because it does look roundish and

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Speaker 1: many illustrations and I want to stress that illustrations based

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Speaker 1: on this imagery readily, and these will readily come up

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Speaker 1: and search for you. Don't worry. You don't have to

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Speaker 1: look hard for them. In fact, it's harder to sort

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Speaker 1: of wean them out and just focus on the sonar

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Speaker 1: data they lean into. This kind of interpretation of this

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Speaker 1: roundish object is perhaps a millennium Falcon s spaceship, or

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Speaker 1: perhaps something akin to the ship that the engineers have

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Speaker 1: in the Alien franchise.

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Speaker 3: I was thinking something that, yeah, from Prometheus. It looks

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Speaker 3: like that technology style.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which is an iconic derelict spaceship that has mysteries

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Speaker 1: aboard that we absolutely should on Earth, We actually absolutely

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Speaker 1: should get in there and get some of that right.

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Speaker 3: But I guess for now we're just going to focus

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Speaker 3: on this original sonar image that was released to the

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Speaker 3: media back in the summer of twenty eleven by again

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Speaker 3: Ocean X, which is this Swedish treasure hunting and salvage

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Speaker 3: diving operation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the actual image here is definitely in the low

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Speaker 1: information zone, and various critics have pointed this out as

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Speaker 1: a reason that not much can be made out of it,

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Speaker 1: aside from the consensus that we're almost certainly looking at

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Speaker 1: a geologic formation here and not a spaceship, not part

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Speaker 1: of a lost city on the bottom of the ocean,

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Speaker 1: some part of a lot of civilization. Their whole article

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Speaker 1: speculating that as well. And you know, it's it's worth

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Speaker 1: driving home that like these ideas, just as pure ideas,

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Speaker 1: are very exciting, Like who wouldn't want to learn more

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Speaker 1: about a possible alien spaceship on the bottom of the ocean.

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Speaker 1: Who would want to hear more about a lost city

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Speaker 1: that was you know, Atlantis style that was swallowed up

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Speaker 1: by the waves in ancient times, but more likely than anything,

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Speaker 1: this is just geology down there, and if you're into geology,

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Speaker 1: it's pretty exciting. But I guess we have to sort

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Speaker 1: of look at the at the end of the day,

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Speaker 1: perhaps geology doesn't have necessarily as much of an excitement

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Speaker 1: value in the mainstream or certainly in the in the fringe.

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Speaker 1: So if you're if you're given two possibilities, even though

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Speaker 1: one is far more likely, some people are just going

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Speaker 1: to go for the the sexier answer, and of course

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Speaker 1: the answer that confirms or seems to confirm some ideas

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Speaker 1: and aspirations one has for the universe.

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Speaker 3: Interpretations I've come across in addition to saying this is

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Speaker 3: an alien spacecraft. Oh and by the way, I should say,

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Speaker 3: early articles about this from around the time it was

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Speaker 3: first released often like would draw outlines around parts of

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Speaker 3: this sonar image, like asking you to lean into certain

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Speaker 3: shape interpretations, And one of the outlines that was often

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Speaker 3: drawn was essentially the millennium falcon. So they there's a

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Speaker 3: weird kind of space where they can almost like if

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Speaker 3: you're a journalist doing an article and drawing an outline

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Speaker 3: like that, you can be like, oh, it's just funny.

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Speaker 3: You know, it's a funny joke, but also you probably

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Speaker 3: know that you are getting some traffic from like playing

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Speaker 3: into the hand of UFO interpretations.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I've also seen some where they're like, okay, these

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Speaker 1: are stairs and then this is you know, pointing out

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Speaker 1: like architectural supposed architectural details on this object. And you know, again,

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Speaker 1: you're you're a lot of people they're seeing this image

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Speaker 1: for the first time. You're giving them all the interpretation,

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Speaker 1: given the full script for interpreting this low res image.

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Speaker 3: Right, But anyway to come back to so, there are

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Speaker 3: a lot of people who say, yeah, this is a

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Speaker 3: crashed alien flying saucer, or crashed alien spacecraft or crashed

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Speaker 3: ancient human spacecraft from lost you know, lost technology from

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Speaker 3: an ancient civilization. There are also people who say it

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Speaker 3: was a monument built by the Atlantean civilization, So they

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Speaker 3: say Atlantis built this, it was like a temple. There

250
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Speaker 3: are various flavors of secret Nazi interpretations. It's a it's

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Speaker 3: a U boat model we've never seen before, some kind

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Speaker 3: of underwater Nazi bunker.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, obviously there's a great deal of Nazi stuff.

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Speaker 1: Once you get into the paranormal in fringe movements.

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Speaker 3: But what does it actually look like? I mean, if

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Speaker 3: you take away the outlines and everything, what we can

257
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Speaker 3: see in this image is that it is a kind

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Speaker 3: of roughly sur killer looking texture on the ocean floor

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Speaker 3: that has some parallel lines kind of running across it that,

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Speaker 3: you know, you could well want to interprets as I

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Speaker 3: don't know something they're like grooves or tracks or walkways,

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Speaker 3: but also they could just be like layers of rock.

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Speaker 1: You know. One of these images you included where it's

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Speaker 1: been traced. It looks kind of like I'm going to

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw this out there. It looks kind of

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Speaker 1: like one of the helmets of the giant warriors from

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Speaker 1: Nausacaa the Valley of the Wind like on its side.

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Speaker 1: So perhaps this is a remnant from that time before

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Speaker 1: the Seven Days of Fire.

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Speaker 3: Oh well, we certainly wouldn't want to awake it then,

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Speaker 3: but meddlesome men and their war machines they want to anyway.

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Speaker 3: So other claims about this image, So they say the

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Speaker 3: people who discovered it say that the disc part of

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Speaker 3: the object is roughly sixty meters wide or about two

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Speaker 3: hundred feet wide in diameter. It was found on the

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Speaker 3: ocean floor at a depth of about ninety meters or

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Speaker 3: three hundred feet. Okay, so actually not that deep when

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Speaker 3: it comes to ocean or seafloor. And again this is

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Speaker 3: in the Gulf of Bothnia, which is the northern part

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Speaker 3: of the Baltic Sea between Sweden and Finland. Peter Lindberg,

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Speaker 3: one of the explorers behind the original image, claimed that

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Speaker 3: the object was perfectly round, and there is a sort

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Speaker 3: of light colored area on the seafloor extending away from

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Speaker 3: the disc shaped object that people say could be a

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Speaker 3: runway or a streak cut in the seafloor from a

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Speaker 3: crash landing. And then the next thing, this one starts

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Speaker 3: being a real red flag for me. At some point,

288
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Speaker 3: ocean X started saying that they tried to return to

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Speaker 3: the object and get more information about it and imagery

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Speaker 3: of it, and they said that proximity to the object

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Speaker 3: was causing all of their electronic equipment to function, and

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Speaker 3: they couldn't come within I think they said two hundred

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Speaker 3: meters of the object without all of their electronics failing. Hmm.

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Speaker 3: I'm a little doubtful of that kind of story.

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Speaker 1: You know, given that this is near Finland. I would

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Speaker 1: be shocked if no one has suggested that it might

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Speaker 1: be the lost Sampo, which of course is this object

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Speaker 1: from Finnish mythology that was essentially like it brought riches

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Speaker 1: and good fortune and treasures. It was this font of wealth,

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Speaker 1: and if memory serves like the myth is that it

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Speaker 1: was lost at sea during a battle. So I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like it could be the Sampo. If I'm

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Speaker 1: going to lean into mythology for my.

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Speaker 3: Interpretations, do they say what the Sampo looks like.

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Speaker 1: I've seen some illustrations where it is actually kind of

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Speaker 1: kind of round, Yeah, but I think maybe smaller. I

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Speaker 1: don't know.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Wiki at least mentions a bunch of different ways

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Speaker 3: it's been depicted, and they are wide ranging, so I

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Speaker 3: would guess in the original they don't say the shape

311
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Speaker 3: it takes, but it says here it could be anything

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Speaker 3: from a world pillar to a compass or astrolabe, or

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Speaker 3: a bunch of other things, a coin, dye, a shield.

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Speaker 3: So why not a giant disc at the bottom of

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Speaker 3: the ocean.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 3: One of the reasons that people say this must be

318
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Speaker 3: a spaceship or some other piece of out of place

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Speaker 3: technology is I think, essentially an intuitive reaction to certain

320
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Speaker 3: patterns of geometry. When you look at this sonar image,

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Speaker 3: it appears to be a large circular disc. In some versions,

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Speaker 3: the circular disc appears to be made out of smaller

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Speaker 3: rectangles or squares, and a circle filled in with rectangles

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Speaker 3: or squares. That doesn't sound like any natural object I've

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Speaker 3: ever seen, so it just looks like it could not

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Speaker 3: be natural. It had to be made. Now regarding the

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Speaker 3: square tile or rectangular tiles appearance in this particular sonar image,

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Speaker 3: the one we've been looking at here, there are different

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Speaker 3: versions of it you can find on the Internet. But

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Speaker 3: even the fact that it appears to be made of

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Speaker 3: the rectangular blocks or tiles, I think is actually somewhat

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Speaker 3: influenced by the fact that the image has some sort

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00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,840
Speaker 3: of digital artifact lines running parallel from top to bottom

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00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 3: across the image. And these parallel bars crossing the image

335
00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:32,560
Speaker 3: are not just on the object, but they're covering the

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00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:35,720
Speaker 3: whole bitmap, and thus they are obviously a byproduct of

337
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 3: the imaging process, not a reflection of the object itself.

338
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 3: The image is also lined up so that these parallel

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Speaker 3: lines are exactly perpendicular to some ridges or lines that

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00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:51,359
Speaker 3: seem to actually be on the object whatever it is,

341
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:54,159
Speaker 3: that seem to sort of run parallel across it. So

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Speaker 3: I think these digital imaging artifacts create a false impression

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Speaker 3: of a kind of right angled brickwork pattern that is

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00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,600
Speaker 3: not actually present on the object itself. That's just a

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Speaker 3: byproduct of the way the image looks with these lines

346
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Speaker 3: running up and down on it. On the images we see.

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Speaker 3: Second thing is, Rob, you already mentioned this, but the illustrations.

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Speaker 3: This is another case, just like we talked about last time,

349
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Speaker 3: of what was originally a low resolution or low information

350
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:29,359
Speaker 3: piece of evidence being subject to mythologizing in grandiose elaborations

351
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Speaker 3: in artworks. So if you Google image search this object,

352
00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:37,639
Speaker 3: results containing the actual sonar image will be vastly outnumbered

353
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Speaker 3: by full on fictional illustrations. I've included a few for

354
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:43,320
Speaker 3: you to look at here, Rob, Folks at home, you

355
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,879
Speaker 3: can look them up yourself, just type in Baltic Sea anomaly.

356
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Speaker 3: To be clear, these are not photos of the actual object.

357
00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:54,640
Speaker 3: They are imaginative artworks. All of the interesting and provocative

358
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,760
Speaker 3: sharp detail shown in them is made up. But articles

359
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:03,880
Speaker 3: and videos about the object seem to use things like this. Nonetheless,

360
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 3: it's kind of like, look, here's one way of imagining

361
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,240
Speaker 3: what this could look like up close if you could

362
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,479
Speaker 3: see it sharply. And for some people this seems to

363
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 3: suggest it's legitimate to assume that's the way it actually is.

364
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and be clear, this can also take place at

365
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 1: kind of a subliminal consumer level where you just you

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00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,400
Speaker 1: pull up a bunch of images of this thing, and yeah,

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00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 1: most of the ones on your page are going to

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Speaker 1: be perhaps leaning into some sort of fantastic illustration, and

369
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Speaker 1: the illustrations are cool, Like you can't help but look

370
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:38,880
Speaker 1: at this and feel a certain kind of way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, don't want to knock the artists, but I mean

372
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,720
Speaker 3: just like to emphasize these are not images of a

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Speaker 3: thing in the world. These are essentially fictional artworks that

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Speaker 3: are based on a grainy, indistinct original image.

375
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Speaker 1: Now I want to throw out another wild speculation. What

376
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Speaker 1: if this is a tetromino or a tetris block, And really,

377
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,040
Speaker 1: instead of trying to get down there to it, what

378
00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:10,120
Speaker 1: we need to do is construct a tetromino to interlock

379
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,720
Speaker 1: with it and drop it down and make sure that

380
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,680
Speaker 1: we have lined it up appropriately so that it will

381
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Speaker 1: fill in the space next to it.

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00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 3: Well, that's a great point, but it would have to

383
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:25,119
Speaker 3: be a kind of hybrid game piece because it like

384
00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:28,280
Speaker 3: one half of it seems to be a tetronomo. It's

385
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 3: got the blocky parts that seem like they could interlock,

386
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 3: and then the other half is rounded like a connect

387
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,840
Speaker 3: four piece. So maybe it is for a hybrid type

388
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Speaker 3: game something we haven't seen yet.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this does touch on the rea. It's like

390
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,440
Speaker 1: it's not square enough. It's not it doesn't have enough

391
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:51,440
Speaker 1: right angles that it really shouts unnatural object as loudly

392
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,520
Speaker 1: as some would perhaps insist that it does. It's also

393
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,919
Speaker 1: not round enough, it doesn't have the end. Would not

394
00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:02,919
Speaker 1: in either case necessarily mean that it is not of

395
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 1: this world, but certainly like those are the sorts of

396
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,359
Speaker 1: shapes one would want to see in their spaceship. You

397
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:11,359
Speaker 1: would want to see a more perfect circle, You would

398
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,640
Speaker 1: want to see a lot of angles that we usually

399
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 1: don't think of as occurring naturally in nature.

400
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Speaker 3: We will come back to in a minute commentary on

401
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 3: this Sonari image itself and what kind of conclusions we

402
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:34,960
Speaker 3: should draw from it. But let's say that this did

403
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 3: actually depict an object to the bottom of the ocean

404
00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,199
Speaker 3: that had that looked like it had sort of some

405
00:23:41,280 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 3: blocks or some rectangular bricks in it. In the spirit

406
00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 3: of the previous episodes, let's talk about sponges that look

407
00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: like technology. I think it's time for it. Let's talk

408
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 3: about natural rock formations that look like architecture. There are

409
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,679
Speaker 3: lots of them. You can just google lists of things

410
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:02,280
Speaker 3: that are natural geologic formations that look like things made

411
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 3: by humans or made by intelligence, maybe alien intelligence. So

412
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,480
Speaker 3: I wanted to just focus on one example because I

413
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 3: thought the images were so striking. Let's look at what

414
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 3: is called tessellated pavement. Now, to be clear, I'm not

415
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 3: saying that's what this is an image of. I'm just

416
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 3: citing this as an example of things that are natural

417
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 3: geologic formations that totally look like they could not be

418
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 3: that they must have been made by intelligence. Rob, you

419
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 3: can have a look at the photos I included for you.

420
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:34,720
Speaker 3: How would you describe these?

421
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,359
Speaker 1: So one of these images, the one with the sunset

422
00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: over it, This is one of my favorite images. I

423
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: used to have this on my computer, as was one

424
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 1: of my desktop wall papers. It's just so splendid. To

425
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:51,640
Speaker 1: look at, and it does. It looks kind of otherworldly.

426
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: It has a psychedelic feel to it. It just makes you

427
00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:57,439
Speaker 1: feel nice. A couple of the other images of this

428
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 1: sort of thing maybe let feel less surreal, less visionary,

429
00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: and more like, oh, this was once a shopping mall

430
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 1: of some sort, Like clearly some sort of structure was

431
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,560
Speaker 1: built here and it's gone. So I don't know, shopping

432
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:15,080
Speaker 1: malls of the gods.

433
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,400
Speaker 3: Okay, but you're saying shopping mall because it's got rectangular

434
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 3: paving stones right where you're looking at, like a flat

435
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 3: expanse of rock that reaches out into the surf so

436
00:25:24,920 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 3: you can see the ocean beyond, and then all across

437
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:32,800
Speaker 3: the surface of this rock there are just rectangular tiles basically.

438
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, rectangular tiles, rectangular spaces, and you get this sense

439
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: like if you've ever seen a large building like a

440
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: you know, a storage facility, factory or a mall, and

441
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 1: it's been torn down, like and the junk has been

442
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: cleared away and you're just left with the with the base,

443
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 1: it often looks something like this, you know, where you

444
00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: can see where rooms used to be, you can see

445
00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:01,199
Speaker 1: bits of tiling, et cetera. So yeah, it it's whispers

446
00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 1: some sort of human origin when you look at it,

447
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 1: if you again, if you don't have the proper context

448
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: and the proper expertise.

449
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,160
Speaker 3: So all of these photos that you're looking at here

450
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 3: rob are of the same rock formation which can be

451
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 3: found on an isthmus in the Australian state of Tasmania.

452
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,280
Speaker 3: The isthmus is called the Eagle Hawk Neck and it's

453
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:28,600
Speaker 3: on the southeast of Tasmania, connecting the mainland to the

454
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 3: Tasman Peninsula. I mentioned that these formations are known as

455
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,159
Speaker 3: tessellated pavements. Tesselated as a synonym for tiled, so it

456
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: means the practice of covering a surface with tightly locking tiles.

457
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 3: And it's called this because, of course it looks like

458
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,600
Speaker 3: a tiled floor or a pavement made by human hands. Now,

459
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,639
Speaker 3: how on Earth could natural processes ever produce something that

460
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,640
Speaker 3: looks like this? Well, I found a passage in an

461
00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:55,959
Speaker 3: academic book that discusses this very thing. So the book's

462
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,119
Speaker 3: called The Coastlines of the World with Google Earth Understanding

463
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 3: Our Environment by Scheffers, Scheffers and Keletot, published by Springer

464
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: twenty twelve. The authors say that these formations are rare,

465
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,640
Speaker 3: and they seem to only occur in sedimentary rock platforms

466
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:16,359
Speaker 3: located in the intertidal zone. Intertitle means that the rocks

467
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 3: are covered by seawater at high tide and then uncovered

468
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 3: at low tide, so they can go through patterns of

469
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:26,240
Speaker 3: wedding with seawater and then drying out. And they also

470
00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 3: tend to occur only in low energy coasts, meaning coasts

471
00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,199
Speaker 3: without very strong wave action. So the authors write that

472
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 3: these tesselated patterns in Tasmania in particular, began millions of

473
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:43,440
Speaker 3: years ago when fractures formed in siltstone due to stress

474
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 3: in the Earth's crust sometime between like sixty million and

475
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: one hundred and sixty million years ago. In geology, these

476
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,440
Speaker 3: cracks that form in large bodies of rock are known

477
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 3: as joints, and they're found in all kinds of rock,

478
00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 3: most often appearing as patterns of crack that extend all

479
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 3: the way through this big body of rock, and sometimes,

480
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 3: for a variety of reasons, these patterns can be parallel

481
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 3: or otherwise surprisingly regular and symmetrical. Another striking pattern of

482
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 3: jointing in large bodies of rock that might look unnatural

483
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,320
Speaker 3: to some is hexagonal jointing. If you've ever seen columns

484
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 3: of basalt that have hexagonal shapes, that that's another type

485
00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 3: of strange jointing that doesn't look like that could happen

486
00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 3: in nature, but it does. That's caused by just patterns

487
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 3: of how certain types of rock cool and then crack

488
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 3: as they cool. In the case of the tessellated pavements,

489
00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 3: here you get kind of rectangular patterns of cracks. And

490
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:45,880
Speaker 3: in the time since the jointing occurred in this rock,

491
00:28:46,000 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 3: the cracked sedimentary rock has been exposed to the surface

492
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:52,959
Speaker 3: and the tides which have caused it to erode in

493
00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 3: a way that accentuated the rectangular grade of cracks in

494
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 3: what's known as pan and loaf formation. So the basic

495
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 3: difference here is that some of these rectangles seem to

496
00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: be sort of raised at the outline and then depressed

497
00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 3: in the middle where they can hold pools of water

498
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 3: in them, and then other ones seem to be kind

499
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 3: of raised in the middle and depressed at the outline,

500
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 3: so in the middle they sort of puff up like

501
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 3: a maybe like a cobble stone or like the top

502
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 3: of a loaf of bread rising over the pan. The

503
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 3: author's right that at areas farther away from the contact

504
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 3: with the water, the pavement spends a longer time drying

505
00:29:35,400 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: out during low tide, which gives more opportunity for salt

506
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 3: crystals to form on top of the rock, and the

507
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 3: salt crystals erode the rock surface, and the erosion happens

508
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 3: faster inside the pan than it does in the cracks

509
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 3: around the pan, you know, forming the rim. So you

510
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 3: end up with this depressed pan appearance where it can

511
00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 3: hold pools of water. Meanwhile, the loaf formation are closer

512
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,760
Speaker 3: to the water, there's less drying in between tides, less

513
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: salt crystal, less salt crystallization, and more erosion just due

514
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 3: to water flowing in the cracks in between the rectangles

515
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: and like sand and abrasion eroding those. So you end

516
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 3: up getting this raised, puffed bread like kind of appearance. Rob,

517
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,200
Speaker 3: I've got another image for you to look at that

518
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,800
Speaker 3: is more of the loaf formation down below here. This

519
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 3: is the one in black and white, and man, these

520
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: really really do look like human made bricks. But it's

521
00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 3: a natural formation.

522
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean, if you just glanced at it,

523
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: even if you I don't know, I guess if you

524
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 1: looked at it long enough, you might wonder why the

525
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 1: bricks are not of uniform size, but certainly it's smacks

526
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: of masonry. It smacks of brickwork.

527
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 3: So that's just one example, but I hope that should

528
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 3: be a convincing illustration yet again that we should not

529
00:30:56,760 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 3: always trust our intuitions about what looks natural and what

530
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 3: looks intelligently designed. We are presented with example after example

531
00:31:06,480 --> 00:31:09,320
Speaker 3: of things that look like they must be technology, or

532
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 3: they must be architecture, they must have been built by

533
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 3: intention and intelligence, but are actually just totally, uncontroversially a

534
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 3: result of biological evolution or geological and hydrological processes, just

535
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,080
Speaker 3: things that happen in nature without any human intervention or

536
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 3: alien intervention. So my point there is that without the

537
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 3: relevant expertise since a marine biology or geology or whatever

538
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 3: it is, it's easy to sort something into the unexplainable column,

539
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,520
Speaker 3: when in fact it's just like totally looks like something

540
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,400
Speaker 3: that is well known if you happen to know about

541
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 3: certain things.

542
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 1: Right.

543
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 3: But to come back to the sonar image from the

544
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 3: Baltic Sea, the Baltic Sea nomaly, which again some are

545
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 3: quick to label an anomaly in need of explanation based

546
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,360
Speaker 3: in Aliens or Atlantis or secret Nazi technology. Again, all

547
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 3: of this speculation is only possible because we're operating in

548
00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 3: the zone of low resolution. One problem here is that

549
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 3: you and I and most people looking at this image

550
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 3: lack context. We don't know much about the Baltic Sea floor.

551
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 3: We also don't know anything about how sonar images are produced.

552
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 3: Is it possible that we could get a higher information

553
00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: perspective by asking somebody who knows about those things? So

554
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 3: I came across an article published in February twenty twelve

555
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 3: in Popular Mechanics called Underwater UFO Get Real Experts Say,

556
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: by Douglas Main. And this article consulted several experts for

557
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 3: perspective on this sonar image. One was Hanumant Singh, who

558
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 3: was at the time a researcher with the Woods Hull

559
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 3: Oceanographic Institute. I think now he's a professor at Northeastern

560
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 3: University who has a number of research focuses I found,

561
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 3: including robotics and things in that domain, but also quote

562
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 3: imaging in visually degraded environments, including underwater and in polar regions.

563
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: Oh that's perfect.

564
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:16,280
Speaker 3: So what did Singh have to say? About the anomaly well.

565
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 3: He cautioned that we should not put too much trust

566
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 3: in the sonar image itself for a number of reasons.

567
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,120
Speaker 3: He says it was created using a type of sonar

568
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 3: technology called side scan sonar, which is perfectly useful for

569
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 3: locating large objects like sunken ships, but could potentially introduce

570
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 3: false details into an image if it's not functioning correctly,

571
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: and he cited several indications in the image itself that

572
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: the sonar should not be trusted. He said that there

573
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 3: are signs of cross talk between the two different instruments

574
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 3: that are used to create the image. He says one

575
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 3: channel is electrically contaminating the other, and this results in

576
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 3: parts of the image on one side being mirrored and

577
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: reflected on to the other side of the map. He

578
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 3: also says that the black parallel lines in the image

579
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 3: I already mentioned these earlier just because I didn't have

580
00:34:08,360 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 3: any expertise, but I just noticed that these create the

581
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 3: false impression that the disc is more made of rectangular

582
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 3: blocks than it probably actually is. He said that these

583
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 3: black parallel lines in the image showed that there are

584
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 3: places where the sonar is dropping out, so that's an

585
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 3: image quality problem. He also says that the edges of

586
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 3: the image have lost detail, also showing that the sonar

587
00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 3: is not calibrated properly. This article also consulted someone named

588
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 3: Charles Paul, who is a senior scientist at the Monterey

589
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 3: Bay Aquarium Research Institute, who said that even if the

590
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 3: sonar image is roughly is a roughly accurate picture of

591
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: what's down there, there's no reason to think it's a spaceship.

592
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 3: It could be, first of all, a roughly circular rock outcropping.

593
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 3: No reason that's implausible, or he says quote the result

594
00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: of fluid or gas venting. Such venting causes inexplicable and

595
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 3: poorly understood structures like pock marks circular depressions that Paul

596
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 3: has seen are all around the world. In one area

597
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 3: off California alone, he says he has mapped more than

598
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 3: fourteen hundred such pock marks. So gas venting from the

599
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,239
Speaker 3: seafloor can cause unusual formations. That's something you wouldn't know

600
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 3: if you weren't familiar with looking at the seafloor. Another

601
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,879
Speaker 3: possible explanation, which I thought was very interesting, Remember how

602
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 3: this thing is actually not all that deep. It's only

603
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,040
Speaker 3: about three hundred feet down, and because it's not all

604
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 3: that deep, Paul says it could be a pattern created

605
00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 3: by a fishing troll.

606
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: Quote.

607
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 3: For example, Paul says the jaws or opening of a

608
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 3: troll could easily have struck the bottom elsewhere and dropped

609
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 3: a disk like mound of sediment or a trail of

610
00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 3: pebbles that make up the track marks, he says. Another

611
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,359
Speaker 3: option mentioned in this article, Hana mont Singh, even said

612
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 3: that the original image could have been produced by fish.

613
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 3: He describes how the use of side scans sonar can

614
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 3: produce all sorts of confusing images and often has to

615
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 3: be double checked by passing back again from another angle

616
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,640
Speaker 3: to really figure out what it was you saw on

617
00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,799
Speaker 3: the first pass. Now I wanted to mention one more

618
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 3: article from twenty twelve that addresses this and interviews a

619
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 3: irrelevant expert who had access to some materials that may

620
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,920
Speaker 3: have been from the object. This article is by the

621
00:36:23,920 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 3: science writer Natalie Wolkover. It's from August thirtieth, twenty twelve,

622
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 3: called Mysterious Baltic Sea object is a glacial deposit, so

623
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:36,680
Speaker 3: this article was written after the head of this or

624
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,919
Speaker 3: one of the heads of this Ocean X group. Peter

625
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:42,240
Speaker 3: Lindberg was in the media again and had been making statements,

626
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 3: I think on a radio program about the nature of

627
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: the seafloor object being very mysterious and unsolved and baffling

628
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 3: to scientists. He claimed it had stare formations that may

629
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: have been constructed, and it seemed to be being kind

630
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 3: of ambiguous, but saying things like if this is Atlantis,

631
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 3: that would be amazing. Now. Apparently the explorers who discovered

632
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 3: this sonar image at one point gave some rock samples

633
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 3: to a researcher in Sweden named Vulkar Brukert, who is

634
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:21,399
Speaker 3: an associate professor of geology at Stockholm University. Gave him

635
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:25,120
Speaker 3: some rocks for analysis. These rocks I couldn't find a

636
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:28,080
Speaker 3: lot about exactly how they were sourced, but they allegedly

637
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 3: came from the object, so I guess they're claiming to

638
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 3: have collected them on a dive. Brukert was then quoted

639
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,920
Speaker 3: in a Swedish tabloid in a way that ambiguously suggested

640
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 3: he might be like it's kind of an ambiguous quote.

641
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 3: He says, you know, oh, it's surprising to find this

642
00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,920
Speaker 3: black rock here, and the ambiguity suggests he might be

643
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 3: signing on to the idea that this object is actually

644
00:37:52,840 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 3: quite mysterious and unexplainable by science. But when other journalists

645
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,680
Speaker 3: followed up with him, this same scholar was not of

646
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,680
Speaker 3: that opinion at all, that it was like a baffling

647
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 3: unexplainable thing. He said that the rocks they gave him,

648
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 3: whether they came from the object or not, were mostly

649
00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:12,000
Speaker 3: just ordinary seafloor rocks, with one exception, which was a

650
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 3: piece of basaltic rock, which is made out of hardened

651
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,120
Speaker 3: lava and not normally the kind of rock you'd find

652
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 3: all over the floor of the Baltic Sea. But it's

653
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,240
Speaker 3: still not all that baffling because rocks get moved around,

654
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 3: and in this case, it's very likely this kind of

655
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 3: rock could have been left at the bottom of the

656
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,320
Speaker 3: Baltic Sea by a glacier, Brookert says in a statement

657
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: given for this article. Quote because the whole northern Baltic

658
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 3: region is so heavily influenced by glacial thawing processes, both

659
00:38:40,800 --> 00:38:43,719
Speaker 3: the feature and the rock samples are likely to have

660
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 3: formed in connection with glacial and post glacial processes. He wrote,

661
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 3: possibly these rocks were transported there by glaciers. So this

662
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,880
Speaker 3: is another fascinating thing about nature. You know, nature is

663
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 3: very weird. Glaciers can get rock stuck in them. They

664
00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 3: pick up a rock from one place, carry that rock

665
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,080
Speaker 3: to another place as the glaciers move. Then when the

666
00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 3: glacier melts, it drops the rock, and this leaves behind

667
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 3: rocks that are called glacial erratics, rocks that are out

668
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 3: of place because a glacier carried them to the place

669
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:18,160
Speaker 3: where they now rest.

670
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: Now, this is obviously a slow process compared to the

671
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: imagined fast process of alien spaceship settling down from the

672
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 1: bud the bottom of the sea.

673
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:30,879
Speaker 3: Right, So I would say, based on everything I've read

674
00:39:30,880 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 3: about this, we don't really know what the object in

675
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 3: this sonar image is. But this one geologist suggests that

676
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 3: the best guess is that it's some sort of rock

677
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:43,319
Speaker 3: formation left over by the freezing and thawing of glaciers

678
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:48,320
Speaker 3: from the last glacial maximum, from the last peak of

679
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,839
Speaker 3: the ice age. So I don't think I would sort

680
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 3: this one exactly like the Eltannan and antenna, where in

681
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 3: that case I would say it's, you know, ninety nine

682
00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:59,280
Speaker 3: point nine percent certain we know exactly what that image

683
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,040
Speaker 3: is of you have the right context, you can identify it.

684
00:40:02,760 --> 00:40:05,080
Speaker 3: In this case, it seems like there's a little more

685
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 3: wiggle room. It's like, this is a grainy image. We

686
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 3: don't know what it was exactly, And there are some

687
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 3: good candidates, but there's not really enough information to zero

688
00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 3: in on one and be certain and looking for more

689
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 3: recent sources on this good lord, there are some, but

690
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 3: they are mostly hosted on like tabloid sites that felt

691
00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 3: like they were just made of high density malware. They

692
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 3: would make numerous unbelievable sounding claims, like repeating the stuff

693
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 3: about how like all of the electronics malfunctioned when they

694
00:40:36,800 --> 00:40:39,879
Speaker 3: tried to get near the object again, and they would

695
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,880
Speaker 3: lean heavily on images that appeared to be fake without

696
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,480
Speaker 3: clarifying where the images came from, which I find very annoying. Also,

697
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 3: they don't appear to like I'm fine with using like

698
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 3: fake illustrations if it's clearly labeled like this is not

699
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 3: the object, this is an you know, an artist's imagination.

700
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 3: But also like they don't appear to add much of

701
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 3: anything new except additional wild claims from the Internet. For example,

702
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 3: vague claims I read on some article with no sourcing

703
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 3: that the object contains metals not possible to produce on Earth,

704
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,800
Speaker 3: So I just I don't know if that's worth addressing.

705
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: But as far as I can tell, this is sort

706
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,799
Speaker 3: of peak low information zone, right. It's an indistinct and

707
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:26,880
Speaker 3: grainy but weird looking original photo produced with a fragile

708
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 3: imaging system that is well known to spit out all

709
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:34,400
Speaker 3: kinds of errors and artifacts, and it is presented to

710
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 3: the media in a way that encourages interesting unusual explanations, like,

711
00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 3: you know, for example, just drawing the spaceship outline around

712
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 3: it is kind of like, hey, you know, maybe think

713
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: about it as a spaceship, or saying that it might

714
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 3: be constructed as if, you know, by an ancient civilization

715
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:53,640
Speaker 3: or something, and then coming up with a story about

716
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 3: why you can't produce more high quality images, electrical equipment,

717
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 3: malfunctions in the vicinity, et cetera. So I don't know.

718
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:03,359
Speaker 3: I checked in, and it seems like the explorers are

719
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 3: they had at some point been working on a documentary

720
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 3: about this, and we're claiming that there would be more

721
00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 3: to come about it. But I would say, I don't know.

722
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 3: For now, this is it's stuck in that low resolution,

723
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 3: low information area, and if we were to get better

724
00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 3: information on it, I strongly suspect it would turn out

725
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 3: to be just a kind of interestingly shaped rock.

726
00:42:26,560 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it would turn out to be either an interestingly

727
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 1: shaped rock or there would be nothing. And in a way,

728
00:42:33,120 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: that's the worst answer, right, because you can always just

729
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 1: move the goalpost on it. You can say, well, I

730
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: guess the ship moved also was a functional spaceship, and

731
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:49,839
Speaker 1: so the mystery continues in a way that proves what

732
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 1: we thought it was. Or hey, if anyone wants to

733
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: take up my Sampo theory, well, clearly some of the

734
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,760
Speaker 1: major powers of this world saw that it was the Sampo,

735
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 1: and they went and claimed the Sampo, and they are

736
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 1: busy getting the Sampo back online somewhere to produce, you know,

737
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 1: unlimited riches. But in either case, you know, it's like,

738
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 1: like we've been saying, it's it's it's a far simpler

739
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: exercise to turn to explanations for which we have additional

740
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 1: data that we can We can look at other rock

741
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: formations and say, yes, this is potentially the sort of

742
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 1: thing that's happening here. We can look at other glacial

743
00:43:25,080 --> 00:43:28,759
Speaker 1: situations and say, yeah, this is potentially the model at

744
00:43:28,760 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 1: work here, and we have examples of this model. Whereas

745
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:35,360
Speaker 1: when you turn to UFOs, when you turn to the

746
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,640
Speaker 1: law City of Atlantis or the Sampo, you know, these

747
00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 1: are not things for which we have any additional reputable

748
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: data to really throw in to compare it to.

749
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 3: There are no solid examples of those to compare it to. Yeah, exactly,

750
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 3: there are a lack of dependable analogies, which, yeah, should

751
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 3: should make you hesitate before resorting to that kind of explanation.

752
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 3: And then the other thing again is just like when

753
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 3: you're in the low resolution zone or the low information zone,

754
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 3: it's okay to just reserve judgment, you know, you can,

755
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,320
Speaker 3: like it's important to acknowledge, like we don't have a

756
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 3: lot of information here, so you know, it's you can't

757
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 3: really say what this is.

758
00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, more information is required.

759
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 3: Oh and I forgot to mention this until now. But

760
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,480
Speaker 3: also there was an article I found where the divers

761
00:44:26,160 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 3: from Ocean X did release some photos allegedly of the objects,

762
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 3: so not sonar, but like camera photographs allegedly taken of

763
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 3: the object on a dive. But you can't really see

764
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 3: what you're looking at rob I've shared a link to

765
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 3: a CBC article with you here that includes one of

766
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 3: these photos. And yeah, it just looks like a rock.

767
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 3: It's like a like a kind of blurry piece of

768
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 3: rock with like the glare of a flashlight shining off

769
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 3: of it. So it's not really it doesn't really add

770
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:56,959
Speaker 3: any information as far as I can tell.

771
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: Hmmm, yeah, I you know, I CBC does great work,

772
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: and I have no reason to doubt that this is

773
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: an actual underwater picture. Yet at the same time, the

774
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,360
Speaker 1: closer I look at it that I get more of

775
00:45:10,400 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 1: a feel that this is like skin Like this really

776
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:15,520
Speaker 1: feels like I feel like I see the crease between

777
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: like thigh and groin taken in a like maybe underwater.

778
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: I don't know, is that a pimple I see? Yeah, yeah,

779
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,880
Speaker 1: I mean just it just speaks to the ambiguity of

780
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 1: the shot, like it's what is it? It's kind of

781
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:30,680
Speaker 1: whatever you want it to be.

782
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,799
Speaker 3: In fact, one paragraph in the CBC rite up of

783
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 3: these photos says, quote the new photos released Friday lacked

784
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,600
Speaker 3: perspective and were apparently taken during the Ocean Explorer team's

785
00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 3: most recent dive.

786
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 1: Okay, well there you go. Just another piece of evidence

787
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 1: that could be something but could be absolutely nothing. And

788
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:56,399
Speaker 1: like again, I just really feel like I'm looking at

789
00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:00,359
Speaker 1: somebody's leg here, Like, isn't it? Is it? I feel

790
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:01,759
Speaker 1: like I see stretch marks.

791
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:03,240
Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, I know what you're saying.

792
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: Like I'm not just trying to be a you know,

793
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: a geek here and you know, making fun of somebody's

794
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 1: UFO information, But this really feels fleshy but almost but

795
00:46:15,080 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: not like like I'm also like, what's the shape of

796
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 1: this person? But oh my goodness, I don't know.

797
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 3: Well, I see exactly what you're saying. Yeah, it does

798
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,399
Speaker 3: look like stretch marks and skin, but it also looks

799
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 3: like it could be striations in sandstone, if you're true

800
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:32,799
Speaker 3: bands and sandstone. I'm not even saying that's what it is,

801
00:46:32,840 --> 00:46:36,200
Speaker 3: because once again, for the millionth time, like it's just

802
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,920
Speaker 3: not clear what it is, not enough information to decide.

803
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:42,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well, we're gonna go ahead and close

804
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 1: this episode out, but we're gonna we're gonna continue this

805
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: line of thought in the next episode of Stuff to

806
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,319
Speaker 1: Blow Your Mind on Thursday. We're gonna get into the

807
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,960
Speaker 1: realm of Egyptology and of course, pseudoscience and pseudo history,

808
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 1: and look at some other examples where if you take

809
00:46:58,239 --> 00:47:03,120
Speaker 1: something of context, if you take something without proper you know,

810
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 1: expertise applied to some degree, then yeah, you can. You

811
00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: can make various interpretations that speak of ancient high tech

812
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:15,080
Speaker 1: civilizations and alien involvement and whatever it is you happen

813
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: to look for, or even the Sampo, the Sampo moving

814
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,520
Speaker 1: through time and emerging in ancient Egypt.

815
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,120
Speaker 3: I'm sure I really like that you're cementing that the

816
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 3: Sampo theory is like a new a new major thread,

817
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 3: a fringe explanation.

818
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: I think it deserves it to due. Yeah, and the

819
00:47:32,000 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: Sampo's pretty interesting. We could come back. We can come

820
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,040
Speaker 1: back and cover Sampo on both Stuff to Blow your

821
00:47:37,080 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: Mind and Weird House Cinema, because there's also a great

822
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:41,440
Speaker 1: movie about the Sampo.

823
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm gonna have to research this thing.

824
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 1: There. Actually there's more than one potentially interesting movie about

825
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: the Sampo now that I think about it. Anyway, that'll

826
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 1: be a tale for another time. So in the meantime,

827
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 1: if you want to check out other episodes of Stuff

828
00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind, our Poor Science and Culture episodes

829
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: published on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Monday's we do listener mail.

830
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:04,400
Speaker 1: On Wednesdays we do a short form Monster Factor Artifact episode,

831
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

832
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:08,880
Speaker 1: just talk about a weird film on Weird House.

833
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:12,320
Speaker 3: Cinemam huge thanks to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

834
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

835
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

836
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

837
00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:21,959
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow

838
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

839
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

840
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,400
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841
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:53,680
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