WEBVTT - How the Buy Nothing Movement Imploded 0:00:15.264 --> 0:00:22.904 Pushkin. I'm Joahini Bara and I wrote The Battle for 0:00:22.944 --> 0:00:25.584 the Soul of Buy Nothing for Wired magazine and it's 0:00:25.664 --> 0:00:29.184 the story of the Week. In twenty fifteen, I wrote 0:00:29.184 --> 0:00:31.304 a cover story for a Time magazine in which I 0:00:31.424 --> 0:00:35.064 tried to live my entire life through the sharing economy. 0:00:35.504 --> 0:00:38.824 I turned my house into a restaurant somehow, charging people 0:00:38.944 --> 0:00:42.624 thirty five dollars for my pretty mediocre food. I drove 0:00:42.664 --> 0:00:45.664 a lift for a night, taking a TV executive to 0:00:45.704 --> 0:00:48.544 a bar just because he heard a rumor that Momar 0:00:48.624 --> 0:00:52.864 Kadafi's son was there. It was all really fun. I 0:00:52.944 --> 0:00:56.104 loved the promise of the sharing economy. Why should I 0:00:56.144 --> 0:00:59.784 own stuff I rarely used, like a vacation home or 0:00:59.824 --> 0:01:02.784 a lawnmower or a sex swing when I could just 0:01:02.904 --> 0:01:06.744 share them. The only thing that didn't work out for 0:01:06.824 --> 0:01:11.464 me was this site I used called Yurtle. The idea 0:01:11.584 --> 0:01:15.024 was that people would give and take items for free, 0:01:15.464 --> 0:01:18.184 and as a journalist, I sometimes get stuff for free, 0:01:18.224 --> 0:01:20.264 even though I tell people I'm not allowed to take it. 0:01:20.704 --> 0:01:22.744 So I went on Yrtle, and I offered up this 0:01:22.824 --> 0:01:25.504 pair of really expensive genes that I would never wear, 0:01:26.064 --> 0:01:28.184 as well as this pair of goalie skates that the 0:01:28.264 --> 0:01:32.704 NHL gave me. No one took them, and they were free. 0:01:33.704 --> 0:01:36.664 So I saw how hard it is to give away 0:01:36.704 --> 0:01:40.024 stuff for free, and I was really impressed when two 0:01:40.064 --> 0:01:43.544 women figured it out, getting millions of people to share 0:01:43.664 --> 0:01:48.144 free stuff through a group called by Nothing. What I 0:01:48.224 --> 0:01:50.744 didn't know was that even when you figure out a 0:01:50.784 --> 0:01:54.064 way to remove capitalism and create a community that really 0:01:54.064 --> 0:01:57.464 cares about each other, you can still piss people off, 0:01:57.864 --> 0:02:01.304 even when they're getting stuff for free, maybe especially then 0:02:08.424 --> 0:02:11.664 writing It's hard. Who's got that kind of time when 0:02:11.664 --> 0:02:15.224 you're already busy trying to be Joe Stein until it 0:02:15.264 --> 0:02:18.424 turns on a mic mab it twiddles and knob because 0:02:18.504 --> 0:02:22.344 a journalist Frand has got in that jewal job of story. 0:02:23.264 --> 0:02:29.944 Single story. Just listen to smart people speak conversation. Filming 0:02:30.104 --> 0:02:41.904 information is a story of Wahini Vara is a contributing 0:02:41.904 --> 0:02:44.304 writer at Wired and the author of the novel The 0:02:44.344 --> 0:02:47.664 Immortal King Rao. She followed the story of the two 0:02:47.704 --> 0:02:52.464 founders of Buying Nothing. It's a simple utopian concept, except 0:02:52.544 --> 0:02:55.744 that it's tethered to Facebook, which is more like an 0:02:55.904 --> 0:03:01.024 algorithmically controlled dystopian concept. Wahiny, thank you so much for 0:03:01.344 --> 0:03:05.264 coming on and teaching me about buying nothing. Now, explain, 0:03:05.544 --> 0:03:08.024 how did your mom tell you about buying nothing? So 0:03:08.584 --> 0:03:11.544 I learned about buying nothing when my mom was living 0:03:11.744 --> 0:03:14.304 in West Seattle, in the Seattle area, which is where 0:03:14.304 --> 0:03:17.304 I grew up. It was around twenty fifteen, and my 0:03:17.344 --> 0:03:19.544 mom was like using it to get rid of all 0:03:19.704 --> 0:03:22.104 my old stuff and her old stuff and put it 0:03:22.144 --> 0:03:24.544 on buy Nothing. And I was like, buy nothing. What 0:03:24.704 --> 0:03:28.384 is this and she explained to me that it's this community. 0:03:29.104 --> 0:03:31.024 At the time, it was like this community that was 0:03:31.064 --> 0:03:36.704 mostly popular in Washington, where people post in this Facebook 0:03:36.744 --> 0:03:38.984 group things that you wanted to get rid of, and 0:03:39.024 --> 0:03:41.344 then you could also post in the same Facebook group 0:03:41.424 --> 0:03:44.344 things that you needed, and people from your neighborhood would 0:03:44.384 --> 0:03:46.344 respond and say like, yeah, I've got that, or I 0:03:46.384 --> 0:03:50.464 need Mom is like looking for old kombucha bottles. Yes, 0:03:50.704 --> 0:03:53.264 my mom had a phase, a big kombucha phase, and 0:03:53.264 --> 0:03:56.624 she would get like she got kombucha starter, I believe 0:03:57.024 --> 0:04:00.664 from they call them scobies, like the whatever that stuff 0:04:00.824 --> 0:04:04.224 is that you use. My wife had Jesus no, agreed, agreed. 0:04:04.304 --> 0:04:06.224 I was like, what is this? And you got up 0:04:06.224 --> 0:04:10.024 from a stranger. So she got us Scobee, I think 0:04:10.104 --> 0:04:12.584 from buy nothing that is not fact checked. I know 0:04:12.664 --> 0:04:15.064 for a fact she got these old bottles and then 0:04:15.104 --> 0:04:17.384 she would fill them with kombucha and give those away. 0:04:17.424 --> 0:04:18.944 Do you think she was nuts or you thought this 0:04:19.024 --> 0:04:21.024 was cool? I thought she was nuts in the way 0:04:21.024 --> 0:04:24.464 that like you always like assume your mom is nuts, right, 0:04:24.744 --> 0:04:27.304 and like you learn about something new that your mom 0:04:27.424 --> 0:04:30.904 is doing awful, and then in retrospect objectively, I'm like, 0:04:31.304 --> 0:04:34.344 well that's a good way to be environmentally friendly. Okay. 0:04:34.384 --> 0:04:38.744 So there are these two founders, Leesel Clark and Rebecca Rockefeller. 0:04:39.464 --> 0:04:41.904 They look to me like the women who run the 0:04:42.264 --> 0:04:48.384 Women and Women First bookstore in Portlandia. They're very idealistic 0:04:48.424 --> 0:04:51.424 women from Bambridge Island, which is this community to this 0:04:51.624 --> 0:04:54.864 island outside of Seattle, near where I grew up. And 0:04:55.104 --> 0:04:57.624 it's now like anything in Seattle, like it's now very 0:04:58.024 --> 0:05:03.104 bougie and expensive, but historically like it was thought of 0:05:03.144 --> 0:05:06.784 as this sort of granola community of like minded people, 0:05:06.904 --> 0:05:10.384 like a lot of environmentalism. A lot of artists lived there, 0:05:10.904 --> 0:05:17.224 and they became friends actually through this other platform for 0:05:17.464 --> 0:05:20.984 giving things away, and they would like put things on 0:05:21.024 --> 0:05:23.144 this list, serve and then the moderator for that list 0:05:23.144 --> 0:05:25.624 Serve would be like, like, the things that you're giving 0:05:25.664 --> 0:05:28.384 away aren't really that great? Is a free cycle that 0:05:28.464 --> 0:05:31.544 they were on? Yeah, they were on freecycle exactly, and 0:05:31.624 --> 0:05:34.384 Rockefeller had recently gotten divorced, she went, you said, from 0:05:34.424 --> 0:05:37.224 being working class to very poor, living on food stamps 0:05:37.224 --> 0:05:40.384 and medicaids. So she was using this list serve to 0:05:40.824 --> 0:05:42.664 get a lot of stuff and they were trying to 0:05:42.664 --> 0:05:45.304 give away stuff. At some point she tried to give 0:05:45.344 --> 0:05:50.664 away like twigs she had pruned, right, Rockefeller did yeah. Yeah, 0:05:50.744 --> 0:05:52.984 So she was giving away like all kinds of stuff. 0:05:52.984 --> 0:05:55.424 They both were, and so she had she posted these twigs, 0:05:55.464 --> 0:05:57.384 and the moderator of the group wrote to her and 0:05:57.504 --> 0:06:00.464 was like, listen, lady, these twigs like this isn't a gift, 0:06:00.944 --> 0:06:04.264 can you not? And but it turned out somebody wanted 0:06:04.264 --> 0:06:07.104 the twigs, and the person who wanted the twigs was 0:06:07.224 --> 0:06:10.144 Leesela Clark, And so that's how these two women met. 0:06:10.344 --> 0:06:13.824 They both loved twigs. They love twigs, yes, And so 0:06:14.104 --> 0:06:16.784 lizel Clark then posts to Facebook to see if people 0:06:16.784 --> 0:06:20.024 would be interested in this idea of a less moderated 0:06:20.224 --> 0:06:24.064 version of free cycle. They call it buy Nothing and 0:06:24.264 --> 0:06:27.264 people go nuts. They love this, right, yeah, So you know, 0:06:27.344 --> 0:06:30.184 within days they've got a hundreds of people in their 0:06:30.224 --> 0:06:32.904 town using this thing. Why do you think it works? 0:06:32.944 --> 0:06:35.184 Because there's already ways to give away free stuff, like 0:06:35.224 --> 0:06:37.944 you said, like free cycle and other places. The founders 0:06:37.984 --> 0:06:41.184 talk a lot about how they feel that the reason 0:06:41.344 --> 0:06:43.544 it was so successful and really took off is that 0:06:43.904 --> 0:06:48.344 it was really community oriented and people like could give 0:06:48.384 --> 0:06:50.704 what they wanted and ask for what they wanted, and 0:06:50.784 --> 0:06:54.664 like it was so cozy. I believe there's another reason 0:06:54.664 --> 0:06:56.704 that it took off, which is that it was on Facebook. 0:06:56.784 --> 0:07:00.024 Like it was one of these early communities to spring 0:07:00.144 --> 0:07:02.944 up on Facebook, and it made it so easy, and 0:07:03.024 --> 0:07:05.824 you would like come across people's buy nothing post when 0:07:05.824 --> 0:07:08.344 you were just surfing Facebook, and I think that played 0:07:08.344 --> 0:07:11.744 a big role plus compared to like Craigslist or freecycle. 0:07:12.104 --> 0:07:15.504 When you don't see the person and learn something about 0:07:15.544 --> 0:07:17.744 them and know who their friends are, like you might 0:07:17.784 --> 0:07:21.344 feel much more comfortable and safe going to bring your 0:07:21.344 --> 0:07:23.544 twigs to someone's house if you saw their whole profile 0:07:23.584 --> 0:07:27.384 on Facebook exactly right, Like people will post on there, 0:07:28.104 --> 0:07:30.264 will comment in response to your posts saying like hey, 0:07:30.304 --> 0:07:32.624 I want those twigs. And if you can hover over 0:07:32.664 --> 0:07:34.544 their name and see that you know so and so 0:07:34.664 --> 0:07:36.704 in comment, or your kids go to the same school, 0:07:36.704 --> 0:07:40.184 you're gonna feel uncomfortable. And so what sort of stuff 0:07:40.344 --> 0:07:44.704 is being given away? Because you list crazy things A 0:07:44.864 --> 0:07:47.824 used stick of deodorant that someone took, a half eaten 0:07:47.904 --> 0:07:51.144 artichoke pizza that someone took. Absolutely yeah, and the list 0:07:51.184 --> 0:07:54.624 goes on, and then you have a crazy story about 0:07:54.704 --> 0:07:57.864 this couple who had a bunch of miscarriages that when 0:07:57.904 --> 0:08:02.744 I'm buying nothing, yes, so Liesel and Rebecca talk about 0:08:02.784 --> 0:08:06.504 this couple who had a bunch of miscarriages, and so 0:08:06.544 --> 0:08:09.344 they had some you know, some baby stuff that they 0:08:09.344 --> 0:08:12.424 had put on buy nothing and somebody said, yes, they 0:08:12.424 --> 0:08:13.984 wanted it, and they came over to pick it up. 0:08:13.984 --> 0:08:15.904 And it turned out this person was coming over to 0:08:15.944 --> 0:08:18.584 pick up the stuff on behalf of a friend who 0:08:18.664 --> 0:08:21.944 was pregnant but didn't know if she wanted to keep 0:08:21.984 --> 0:08:26.264 the baby. And so eventually one thing led to another, 0:08:26.344 --> 0:08:29.824 and this family, this couple who had the miscarriages, ended 0:08:29.864 --> 0:08:34.504 up becoming the adoptive parents of this baby. No free baby. Yeah, 0:08:34.584 --> 0:08:39.104 that's amazing. As this thing is blowing up across the country. 0:08:39.664 --> 0:08:44.784 How are Clark and rockefellerre managing this huge thing? Yeah, 0:08:44.864 --> 0:08:47.464 so they could They could have gone a bunch of ways, right, 0:08:47.504 --> 0:08:49.304 Like they started this thing in their community and it 0:08:49.344 --> 0:08:51.584 went really well, and then other people said, hey, we 0:08:51.624 --> 0:08:53.824 want to start this in our own community, and they 0:08:53.864 --> 0:08:56.504 could have just been like, cool, go for it. But 0:08:57.224 --> 0:08:59.464 what they felt was that they had like a really 0:08:59.464 --> 0:09:01.984 strong sense of what they wanted by nothing to beat, 0:09:02.064 --> 0:09:04.624 and so they decided that every group would have to 0:09:04.664 --> 0:09:07.224 like sort of follow certain rules that they came up with. 0:09:07.704 --> 0:09:10.904 But these were all like sept individual Facebook groups that 0:09:11.624 --> 0:09:13.864 it wasn't a business, it wasn't a nonprofit. It was 0:09:13.904 --> 0:09:16.624 just like this network of Facebook groups, and they had 0:09:16.624 --> 0:09:19.384 to have all these administrators like read it almost who 0:09:19.384 --> 0:09:22.824 are doing all the work? That's right, yes, because Facebook 0:09:22.864 --> 0:09:28.464 groups all have to be run by an administrator. They decided, Okay, 0:09:28.504 --> 0:09:30.784 each of these local Facebook groups will be run by 0:09:30.944 --> 0:09:34.504 an admin, and then we'll have another Facebook group that's 0:09:34.544 --> 0:09:37.504 like the hub, the admin hub, where all the local 0:09:37.544 --> 0:09:40.424 admins can belong to that and that's where worlds share 0:09:40.464 --> 0:09:44.184 information about what's new and help problem solve. And then 0:09:44.224 --> 0:09:47.064 they eventually had many, many, many thousands of groups in 0:09:47.064 --> 0:09:50.784 the US and then internationally millions of members. And as 0:09:50.824 --> 0:09:53.384 that was happening, they started creating the system where they 0:09:53.384 --> 0:09:57.144 would have these like regional administrators to oversee the local 0:09:57.184 --> 0:10:01.584 ones and then global admins to oversee the regional ones. 0:10:01.664 --> 0:10:04.464 And so it started looking a lot like some kind 0:10:04.464 --> 0:10:08.584 of corporate structure, right without any money exactly, And they 0:10:08.624 --> 0:10:10.984 had no money, and the moderators have to follow these 0:10:11.024 --> 0:10:14.224 ten rules of buying nothing, Yes, And the main one 0:10:14.264 --> 0:10:16.584 you talk about is that they have to keep it 0:10:16.664 --> 0:10:21.304 local through something called sprouting, because it's all about community exactly. 0:10:21.624 --> 0:10:24.024 So the idea is that when it reaches a certain size, 0:10:24.064 --> 0:10:27.224 like a thousand people, you have to break off into smaller, 0:10:27.304 --> 0:10:31.344 geographical buy nothing groups, right, that's right. Yeah, So if 0:10:31.384 --> 0:10:35.784 the membership goes past a thousand, you're supposed to sprout 0:10:35.904 --> 0:10:39.064 into two or more smaller groups that are sort of 0:10:39.104 --> 0:10:42.464 geographically more compact. The idea is to like have a 0:10:42.504 --> 0:10:46.024 smaller environmental footprint and keep because you're driving not as 0:10:46.064 --> 0:10:49.944 far to drop off your twigs exactly exactly. Maybe you're walking, right, 0:10:49.944 --> 0:10:51.624 maybe you don't have to drive. Because these groups are 0:10:51.624 --> 0:10:54.184 getting smaller and smaller, and they have this really what 0:10:54.304 --> 0:10:56.864 I think is a really kind of lovely, idealistic vision 0:10:57.384 --> 0:11:00.864 of these groups sprouting and becoming smaller and smaller and 0:11:00.944 --> 0:11:04.384 so small that eventually buy nothing doesn't have to exist anymore, 0:11:04.424 --> 0:11:07.544 because like your group is everybody on your block, and 0:11:07.584 --> 0:11:09.544 then you can just walk over to your neighs house 0:11:09.544 --> 0:11:12.024 and ask if they want a twig or whatever, right, 0:11:12.024 --> 0:11:15.264 which is probably how it was for most of humanity. Right. 0:11:15.264 --> 0:11:18.984 And they're trying to re establish having people in a community, 0:11:19.584 --> 0:11:23.904 oh exactly, and that kind of politics of say twenty 0:11:24.184 --> 0:11:27.984 thirteen when they started bumps up against the politics of 0:11:28.304 --> 0:11:31.464 the Trump administration, you know, the time we're living we 0:11:31.464 --> 0:11:36.904 were living in twenty eighteen. And sprouting causes some trouble, yes, 0:11:37.184 --> 0:11:40.584 very much. Though specifically in this place, Jamaica Plains, which 0:11:40.664 --> 0:11:44.984 is a suburb of Massachusetts that it's really liberal, right, Yeah, 0:11:45.064 --> 0:11:47.344 it's like a suburb or I think it's technically a 0:11:47.344 --> 0:11:52.064 neighborhood of Boston. So in this community there were almost 0:11:52.104 --> 0:11:55.824 at five thousand people and they were getting pressure to 0:11:55.944 --> 0:11:58.704 sprout because that's what you're supposed to do, and they 0:11:58.784 --> 0:12:02.064 knew that their members would hate the idea because there 0:12:02.104 --> 0:12:05.744 would be worries about the process of sprouting sort of 0:12:06.944 --> 0:12:11.864 entrenching like the existing segregation and the legacy of redlining 0:12:12.064 --> 0:12:16.264 in their community, right, right, Because the idea of sprouting 0:12:16.984 --> 0:12:20.584 has a beautiful idea of community, but it means that 0:12:20.864 --> 0:12:23.784 you're going to be with people of your exact same 0:12:23.824 --> 0:12:26.784 demographic because of real estate prices. So you know, if 0:12:26.824 --> 0:12:28.824 you're in a rich neighborhood, you're only going to be 0:12:28.864 --> 0:12:31.984 trading your super expensive twigs with your rich neighbors, whereas 0:12:32.024 --> 0:12:36.584 if you geographically expand it, poorer people can get your 0:12:36.584 --> 0:12:39.184 really sweet twigs. Yeah, and so what happened in this 0:12:39.224 --> 0:12:43.704 community is that members totally kind of revolted and we're like, 0:12:44.144 --> 0:12:48.184 this is horrible. We're worried about segregation, We're worried about redlining. 0:12:48.624 --> 0:12:51.104 And then what happened was that some of the regional 0:12:51.144 --> 0:12:55.744 admins started jumping into the conversation and pushing back and saying, 0:12:55.904 --> 0:12:58.464 you know, this is what buy nothing is all about. 0:12:58.584 --> 0:13:02.544 You have to sprout, and tempers got heated and it 0:13:02.664 --> 0:13:07.744 all kind of blew up, and eventually Lisa Clark, one 0:13:07.784 --> 0:13:11.744 of the co founders, got pulled into the situation and 0:13:11.904 --> 0:13:14.824 said something. She used some language about how she was 0:13:14.904 --> 0:13:18.864 quote unquote saddened by the behavior of this local group, 0:13:19.224 --> 0:13:21.784 and then everybody got really really mad because it felt 0:13:21.824 --> 0:13:26.424 like she wasn't understanding what the underlying problem was. And 0:13:27.064 --> 0:13:31.144 she eventually apologized, but a bunch of damage had already 0:13:31.144 --> 0:13:32.984 been done. But I mean, how do you fix that 0:13:33.104 --> 0:13:36.624 tension between wanting things to be hyperlocal and you to 0:13:36.704 --> 0:13:41.584 know your neighbors and wanting to connect people in disparate 0:13:42.064 --> 0:13:46.224 socioeconomic and racial groups who don't live in the same neighborhood. Yeah, 0:13:46.264 --> 0:13:48.824 I mean, one thing they could have done is like 0:13:49.864 --> 0:13:52.264 loosen things a little and said, like, hey, we do 0:13:52.384 --> 0:13:55.424 want you to sprout, but you should figure out how 0:13:55.464 --> 0:13:57.864 to sprout on your own and make sure you come 0:13:57.944 --> 0:14:02.464 up with lines that don't reinforce segregation in the legacy 0:14:02.464 --> 0:14:06.144 of redlining, for example, Right, But that's not what they did. 0:14:07.304 --> 0:14:09.864 We'll find out what Clark and Rockefeller are actually did soon, 0:14:10.664 --> 0:14:13.824 but first we have ad for things you actually have 0:14:13.904 --> 0:14:24.304 to buy because we're late capitalist pigs. Lizel Clark and 0:14:24.384 --> 0:14:28.544 Rebecca Rockefeller have this wildly popular group on Facebook called 0:14:28.544 --> 0:14:32.704 buy Nothing, which is like this utopic idea of a 0:14:32.824 --> 0:14:37.704 Facebook group for your hyperlocal neighborhood that shares free stuff. 0:14:38.504 --> 0:14:42.784 But in twenty eighteen, it's starting to splinter in Jamaica 0:14:42.824 --> 0:14:48.504 Planes Boston, this incredibly liberal area, and it's fighting about 0:14:48.624 --> 0:14:52.424 really racial politics. So how did Clark and Rockefeller decide 0:14:52.424 --> 0:14:56.144 to handle this situation in Jamaica Planes? So they did 0:14:56.184 --> 0:14:59.064 this whole kind of rethinking of Buy Nothing, and when 0:14:59.064 --> 0:15:01.584 they came out of the other side of that rethinking, 0:15:02.184 --> 0:15:04.224 they decided that what they needed to do was like 0:15:04.264 --> 0:15:09.384 get rid of the requirement for sprouting altogether and let 0:15:09.384 --> 0:15:11.784 communities do it if they want, but not make it 0:15:11.824 --> 0:15:16.064 a requirement. So they form an equity team to figure 0:15:16.104 --> 0:15:18.944 out how to be actively anti racist and anti appression. 0:15:19.744 --> 0:15:22.784 There was an argument about whether Buying Nothing's rules of 0:15:22.904 --> 0:15:29.624 enforced civility were kind of classist and racist too, right, Yeah, 0:15:29.624 --> 0:15:32.024 So there were all these things that got brought into it. 0:15:32.224 --> 0:15:35.264 Buy Nothing had historically had this language about like being 0:15:35.344 --> 0:15:39.144 kind and being civil, and the argument was made that 0:15:39.824 --> 0:15:42.464 was sort of being deployed in a way that was 0:15:42.504 --> 0:15:47.904 shutting down people from non majority, non dominant backgrounds, right, 0:15:47.944 --> 0:15:52.344 like a person of color or a queer person or whatever, 0:15:52.384 --> 0:15:55.424 who would maybe have a complaint and like state it 0:15:55.464 --> 0:15:59.224 in a pissed off way about something that was happening 0:15:59.224 --> 0:16:02.904 in our local group, for example, like people offering Confederate 0:16:02.944 --> 0:16:07.664 flags or people offering quote unquote Native American costumes right 0:16:07.784 --> 0:16:10.664 for Halloween. And then they would get accused of being 0:16:10.744 --> 0:16:14.064 unkind right because they're living now in a time where 0:16:14.104 --> 0:16:18.784 everything is political and they're on Facebook where everyone fights 0:16:18.784 --> 0:16:21.584 about politics now, which is not when they join Facebook 0:16:21.624 --> 0:16:25.304 what Facebook was like. So they're wondering if maybe Facebook 0:16:25.384 --> 0:16:27.584 is the problem. Plus everyone's turned on big tech, so 0:16:27.624 --> 0:16:31.784 they start to think that Facebook's the problem, right exactly. Yeah, 0:16:31.864 --> 0:16:35.864 So they start to think, wait a minute, we created 0:16:35.904 --> 0:16:39.784 this idealistic community all about buying nothing, all about sort 0:16:39.824 --> 0:16:43.904 of like standing outside of capitalist structures. But oh no, 0:16:44.624 --> 0:16:47.384 the place where this exists is sort of like the 0:16:47.424 --> 0:16:51.304 most capitalists of structures of all. So they decide they 0:16:51.304 --> 0:16:53.744 want to get off Facebook entirely. They want to make 0:16:53.784 --> 0:16:56.984 this a big move and divest themselves from it, and 0:16:57.024 --> 0:17:00.464 they're going to do it on Black Friday of twenty nineteen, 0:17:00.864 --> 0:17:05.424 which is celebrated as buy Nothing Day in buy nothing world. Yes, 0:17:05.744 --> 0:17:09.544 they post this announcement on buy Nothing Day, is saying 0:17:10.024 --> 0:17:15.104 they are starting a platform called soup Soop, which stands 0:17:15.144 --> 0:17:19.024 for share on our platform, and it is going to 0:17:19.104 --> 0:17:22.824 be this like independent platform, and they don't want it 0:17:22.864 --> 0:17:25.264 to have anything to do with corporate interests. And so 0:17:25.704 --> 0:17:28.544 what they're doing is they're going to their community to 0:17:28.584 --> 0:17:30.984 tell them about it first, and they have a little 0:17:30.984 --> 0:17:33.304 website they've set up where they're going to take donations. 0:17:33.344 --> 0:17:35.944 And so what happens after they make this announcement is 0:17:36.104 --> 0:17:39.344 there's a mini revolt in their community. And the reason 0:17:39.584 --> 0:17:42.704 is that another one of the rules of buy Nothing 0:17:43.264 --> 0:17:45.024 is that you don't go on buy Nothing and ask 0:17:45.104 --> 0:17:48.064 for money, which they have just done by saying, Hey, 0:17:48.104 --> 0:17:50.184 we're starting our own platform, can you give us money 0:17:50.184 --> 0:17:53.304 to fund it? Oh, then that's like the first rule 0:17:53.344 --> 0:17:55.184 of fight club. I mean, that's a serious rule. I 0:17:55.184 --> 0:17:58.464 mean it's called by nothing, and to be fair, some 0:17:58.504 --> 0:18:00.624 people feel that way, and other people think it's a 0:18:00.664 --> 0:18:03.784 good idea and they donate. But at this point they 0:18:03.824 --> 0:18:06.904 have millions of people using buy Nothing, but they raise 0:18:07.144 --> 0:18:09.584 less than twenty thousand dollars, which in the world, as 0:18:09.624 --> 0:18:12.104 you know, Joel, the world of tech is like not 0:18:12.184 --> 0:18:14.064 a lot of money to build. I guess when people 0:18:14.104 --> 0:18:18.784 are giving each other twigs, twenty thousand is about right, ye, right, 0:18:18.904 --> 0:18:21.904 twenty thousands actually a lot of money. So it should 0:18:21.904 --> 0:18:24.944 be noted that because they raised only twenty thousand dollars, 0:18:24.944 --> 0:18:27.264 when they tried to build their own platform, they ended 0:18:27.344 --> 0:18:29.424 up like just scrapping the idea and giving all the 0:18:29.424 --> 0:18:34.704 money back and continuing to grow on Facebook. So while 0:18:34.784 --> 0:18:39.864 this fight is brewing, the pandemic happens and everyone is 0:18:39.864 --> 0:18:42.824 stuck at home and buy Nothing like so many other things, 0:18:42.824 --> 0:18:46.544 just blows up, right exactly, And so they went from 0:18:46.584 --> 0:18:51.624 like from nothing in twenty thirteen to four million members 0:18:51.744 --> 0:18:55.904 during the pandemic. They added about a million members during 0:18:55.904 --> 0:18:58.824 that first period of the pandemic because people were staying 0:18:58.904 --> 0:19:02.104 home and not going to stores and going on Facebook 0:19:02.144 --> 0:19:04.504 and trading things on Buy Nothing because they realized that 0:19:04.504 --> 0:19:07.384 could keep them from from having to shop, and probably 0:19:07.504 --> 0:19:10.744 they wanted social interaction, yeah, absolutely, And people were sharing 0:19:10.864 --> 0:19:15.224 like you know, masks and over the counter medications and 0:19:15.344 --> 0:19:17.944 pandemic related things too, and supporting each other. And there 0:19:17.944 --> 0:19:20.544 were places where it became a kind of like mutual 0:19:20.584 --> 0:19:22.864 aid that was happening as part of the pandemic, with 0:19:23.424 --> 0:19:26.224 you know, neighbors just like coming together in informal ways 0:19:26.224 --> 0:19:30.784 supporting one another, and then at some point they decide 0:19:31.064 --> 0:19:34.144 that they really need to get off Facebook, and they 0:19:34.184 --> 0:19:37.464 need to do it by starting their own company, which 0:19:37.504 --> 0:19:40.704 they must know is going to piss people off. Yeah, 0:19:40.744 --> 0:19:43.624 so what was happening during the pandemic was there were 0:19:43.624 --> 0:19:48.264 just these two women who were working these really you know, 0:19:48.424 --> 0:19:52.024 nine hour days on top of having other jobs, having families. 0:19:52.784 --> 0:19:54.744 They're literally they have millions of people doing this and 0:19:54.784 --> 0:19:59.344 they're not making anything, right, yeah, exactly, and so they 0:19:59.424 --> 0:20:02.624 really start to feel like they're reaching some kind of 0:20:02.664 --> 0:20:06.664 breaking point. And then they get this message from a 0:20:06.664 --> 0:20:11.384 man named Tunji Williams, a former lawyer who had started 0:20:11.424 --> 0:20:16.464 a tech company fairly successfully. This is when a man 0:20:16.784 --> 0:20:19.144 finally enters the scene. This is when trouble is going 0:20:19.184 --> 0:20:23.144 to start. I'm very sure that's the first man in 0:20:23.184 --> 0:20:26.424 this story, right. So they get a message from this man, 0:20:26.584 --> 0:20:30.384 Tenji Williams. They get on the phone and they decide 0:20:30.424 --> 0:20:33.584 that they this time are really going to start something together. 0:20:34.024 --> 0:20:37.544 And unlike the previous time where they really were idealistic 0:20:37.544 --> 0:20:39.384 about it and thought they would just raise money from 0:20:39.384 --> 0:20:41.984 their community and be scrappy about it, this time they 0:20:42.024 --> 0:20:44.864 realize that that didn't work and they're just going to 0:20:44.944 --> 0:20:47.864 start a company and raise money in a more traditional 0:20:47.864 --> 0:20:51.144 way at first through family and friends, and so this 0:20:51.264 --> 0:20:56.224 time they raised one hundred thousand dollars. So they decide 0:20:56.264 --> 0:20:58.304 to start this company, which they must know is going 0:20:58.344 --> 0:21:02.344 to annoy people, but they proceed anyway they do. I mean, 0:21:02.384 --> 0:21:05.344 I think they have a sense that there could be tension. 0:21:06.944 --> 0:21:10.584 I don't think they realize at the outset how hard 0:21:10.624 --> 0:21:13.224 it is to do what they're trying to do, how 0:21:13.224 --> 0:21:16.904 hard it is to take this like thriving Facebook based community, 0:21:17.464 --> 0:21:21.424 which thrives in part because of all of these things 0:21:21.464 --> 0:21:24.504 Facebook has built into its platform to get all of 0:21:24.584 --> 0:21:27.664 us to keep coming back to Facebook, right, and you know, 0:21:27.744 --> 0:21:29.384 all these things that you don't even think about. It's 0:21:29.384 --> 0:21:33.264 not just like it's not just the programmers who build 0:21:33.264 --> 0:21:36.984 Facebook and provide the platform or the computing power. It's 0:21:37.024 --> 0:21:41.304 also it's also like an aspect of the marketing. Right. 0:21:41.344 --> 0:21:44.224 It's the fact that if you're on Facebook, buy nothing 0:21:44.304 --> 0:21:45.864 is going to pop up because you're in the buy 0:21:45.904 --> 0:21:48.864 nothing group, and so you'll see people's posts. Whereas if 0:21:48.904 --> 0:21:51.184 you need to use an independent app to be on 0:21:51.264 --> 0:21:53.864 buy Nothing, you have to remember to open that app 0:21:53.984 --> 0:21:58.464 and you know, you can't see whether you have friends 0:21:58.464 --> 0:22:00.624 in common with the other people on the app. You 0:22:00.664 --> 0:22:03.824 can't see where they went to college. Right, Yeah, there's 0:22:03.864 --> 0:22:07.624 just something about seeing everyone's face and their life that 0:22:07.704 --> 0:22:11.024 makes this a more welcoming kind of warm community. Like 0:22:11.024 --> 0:22:14.984 as much as you want to hate Facebook, the original 0:22:15.024 --> 0:22:19.824 idea of Facebook still works in that way. Yeah, yeah, 0:22:19.864 --> 0:22:22.904 that's right, And so their app just sucks. Right, I've 0:22:22.944 --> 0:22:25.224 tried the app obviously, while reporting on the story, I 0:22:25.304 --> 0:22:27.704 spent a lot of time on the app, and it 0:22:27.824 --> 0:22:30.224 is a little more maybe even less free cycle than 0:22:30.704 --> 0:22:34.024 like a Craigslist or something, Right, So that was one issue. 0:22:34.064 --> 0:22:36.664 But then as you said, also they had one hundred 0:22:36.664 --> 0:22:39.224 thousand dollars at first, that still not that much money. 0:22:39.464 --> 0:22:43.264 They eventually raised another like four hundred thousand dollars also 0:22:43.384 --> 0:22:45.264 in the world of tech, not a lot of money. 0:22:45.544 --> 0:22:49.064 And so they subcontracted the building of this app to 0:22:49.184 --> 0:22:53.224 this like development shop in Poland, which made a version 0:22:53.264 --> 0:22:56.224 of the app that's especially at first like kind of clunky, 0:22:56.344 --> 0:22:59.264 kind of buggy in general, like it wasn't a very 0:22:59.344 --> 0:23:02.024 robust experience, and they are the rules of the app 0:23:02.104 --> 0:23:04.904 that you have to sprout, like is it about having 0:23:04.944 --> 0:23:09.184 a local community or is it about rich import trading 0:23:09.304 --> 0:23:14.504 their couch duffing. So through that Jamaica plane experience, the 0:23:14.544 --> 0:23:19.384 founders became so convinced that this idea of sprouting that 0:23:19.384 --> 0:23:23.304 they built into the original idea was wrong and misguided 0:23:23.784 --> 0:23:26.224 that they decided that in the app there shouldn't be 0:23:26.224 --> 0:23:28.384