1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:22,904 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm Joahini Bara and I wrote The Battle for 2 00:00:22,944 --> 00:00:25,584 Speaker 1: the Soul of Buy Nothing for Wired magazine and it's 3 00:00:25,664 --> 00:00:29,184 Speaker 1: the story of the Week. In twenty fifteen, I wrote 4 00:00:29,184 --> 00:00:31,304 Speaker 1: a cover story for a Time magazine in which I 5 00:00:31,424 --> 00:00:35,064 Speaker 1: tried to live my entire life through the sharing economy. 6 00:00:35,504 --> 00:00:38,824 Speaker 1: I turned my house into a restaurant somehow, charging people 7 00:00:38,944 --> 00:00:42,624 Speaker 1: thirty five dollars for my pretty mediocre food. I drove 8 00:00:42,664 --> 00:00:45,664 Speaker 1: a lift for a night, taking a TV executive to 9 00:00:45,704 --> 00:00:48,544 Speaker 1: a bar just because he heard a rumor that Momar 10 00:00:48,624 --> 00:00:52,864 Speaker 1: Kadafi's son was there. It was all really fun. I 11 00:00:52,944 --> 00:00:56,104 Speaker 1: loved the promise of the sharing economy. Why should I 12 00:00:56,144 --> 00:00:59,784 Speaker 1: own stuff I rarely used, like a vacation home or 13 00:00:59,824 --> 00:01:02,784 Speaker 1: a lawnmower or a sex swing when I could just 14 00:01:02,904 --> 00:01:06,744 Speaker 1: share them. The only thing that didn't work out for 15 00:01:06,824 --> 00:01:11,464 Speaker 1: me was this site I used called Yurtle. The idea 16 00:01:11,584 --> 00:01:15,024 Speaker 1: was that people would give and take items for free, 17 00:01:15,464 --> 00:01:18,184 Speaker 1: and as a journalist, I sometimes get stuff for free, 18 00:01:18,224 --> 00:01:20,264 Speaker 1: even though I tell people I'm not allowed to take it. 19 00:01:20,704 --> 00:01:22,744 Speaker 1: So I went on Yrtle, and I offered up this 20 00:01:22,824 --> 00:01:25,504 Speaker 1: pair of really expensive genes that I would never wear, 21 00:01:26,064 --> 00:01:28,184 Speaker 1: as well as this pair of goalie skates that the 22 00:01:28,264 --> 00:01:32,704 Speaker 1: NHL gave me. No one took them, and they were free. 23 00:01:33,704 --> 00:01:36,664 Speaker 1: So I saw how hard it is to give away 24 00:01:36,704 --> 00:01:40,024 Speaker 1: stuff for free, and I was really impressed when two 25 00:01:40,064 --> 00:01:43,544 Speaker 1: women figured it out, getting millions of people to share 26 00:01:43,664 --> 00:01:48,144 Speaker 1: free stuff through a group called by Nothing. What I 27 00:01:48,224 --> 00:01:50,744 Speaker 1: didn't know was that even when you figure out a 28 00:01:50,784 --> 00:01:54,064 Speaker 1: way to remove capitalism and create a community that really 29 00:01:54,064 --> 00:01:57,464 Speaker 1: cares about each other, you can still piss people off, 30 00:01:57,864 --> 00:02:01,304 Speaker 1: even when they're getting stuff for free, maybe especially then 31 00:02:08,424 --> 00:02:11,664 Speaker 1: writing It's hard. Who's got that kind of time when 32 00:02:11,664 --> 00:02:15,224 Speaker 1: you're already busy trying to be Joe Stein until it 33 00:02:15,264 --> 00:02:18,424 Speaker 1: turns on a mic mab it twiddles and knob because 34 00:02:18,504 --> 00:02:22,344 Speaker 1: a journalist Frand has got in that jewal job of story. 35 00:02:23,264 --> 00:02:29,944 Speaker 1: Single story. Just listen to smart people speak conversation. Filming 36 00:02:30,104 --> 00:02:41,904 Speaker 1: information is a story of Wahini Vara is a contributing 37 00:02:41,904 --> 00:02:44,304 Speaker 1: writer at Wired and the author of the novel The 38 00:02:44,344 --> 00:02:47,664 Speaker 1: Immortal King Rao. She followed the story of the two 39 00:02:47,704 --> 00:02:52,464 Speaker 1: founders of Buying Nothing. It's a simple utopian concept, except 40 00:02:52,544 --> 00:02:55,744 Speaker 1: that it's tethered to Facebook, which is more like an 41 00:02:55,904 --> 00:03:01,024 Speaker 1: algorithmically controlled dystopian concept. Wahiny, thank you so much for 42 00:03:01,344 --> 00:03:05,264 Speaker 1: coming on and teaching me about buying nothing. Now, explain, 43 00:03:05,544 --> 00:03:08,024 Speaker 1: how did your mom tell you about buying nothing? So 44 00:03:08,584 --> 00:03:11,544 Speaker 1: I learned about buying nothing when my mom was living 45 00:03:11,744 --> 00:03:14,304 Speaker 1: in West Seattle, in the Seattle area, which is where 46 00:03:14,304 --> 00:03:17,304 Speaker 1: I grew up. It was around twenty fifteen, and my 47 00:03:17,344 --> 00:03:19,544 Speaker 1: mom was like using it to get rid of all 48 00:03:19,704 --> 00:03:22,104 Speaker 1: my old stuff and her old stuff and put it 49 00:03:22,144 --> 00:03:24,544 Speaker 1: on buy Nothing. And I was like, buy nothing. What 50 00:03:24,704 --> 00:03:28,384 Speaker 1: is this and she explained to me that it's this community. 51 00:03:29,104 --> 00:03:31,024 Speaker 1: At the time, it was like this community that was 52 00:03:31,064 --> 00:03:36,704 Speaker 1: mostly popular in Washington, where people post in this Facebook 53 00:03:36,744 --> 00:03:38,984 Speaker 1: group things that you wanted to get rid of, and 54 00:03:39,024 --> 00:03:41,344 Speaker 1: then you could also post in the same Facebook group 55 00:03:41,424 --> 00:03:44,344 Speaker 1: things that you needed, and people from your neighborhood would 56 00:03:44,384 --> 00:03:46,344 Speaker 1: respond and say like, yeah, I've got that, or I 57 00:03:46,384 --> 00:03:50,464 Speaker 1: need Mom is like looking for old kombucha bottles. Yes, 58 00:03:50,704 --> 00:03:53,264 Speaker 1: my mom had a phase, a big kombucha phase, and 59 00:03:53,264 --> 00:03:56,624 Speaker 1: she would get like she got kombucha starter, I believe 60 00:03:57,024 --> 00:04:00,664 Speaker 1: from they call them scobies, like the whatever that stuff 61 00:04:00,824 --> 00:04:04,224 Speaker 1: is that you use. My wife had Jesus no, agreed, agreed. 62 00:04:04,304 --> 00:04:06,224 Speaker 1: I was like, what is this? And you got up 63 00:04:06,224 --> 00:04:10,024 Speaker 1: from a stranger. So she got us Scobee, I think 64 00:04:10,104 --> 00:04:12,584 Speaker 1: from buy nothing that is not fact checked. I know 65 00:04:12,664 --> 00:04:15,064 Speaker 1: for a fact she got these old bottles and then 66 00:04:15,104 --> 00:04:17,384 Speaker 1: she would fill them with kombucha and give those away. 67 00:04:17,424 --> 00:04:18,944 Speaker 1: Do you think she was nuts or you thought this 68 00:04:19,024 --> 00:04:21,024 Speaker 1: was cool? I thought she was nuts in the way 69 00:04:21,024 --> 00:04:24,464 Speaker 1: that like you always like assume your mom is nuts, right, 70 00:04:24,744 --> 00:04:27,304 Speaker 1: and like you learn about something new that your mom 71 00:04:27,424 --> 00:04:30,904 Speaker 1: is doing awful, and then in retrospect objectively, I'm like, 72 00:04:31,304 --> 00:04:34,344 Speaker 1: well that's a good way to be environmentally friendly. Okay. 73 00:04:34,384 --> 00:04:38,744 Speaker 1: So there are these two founders, Leesel Clark and Rebecca Rockefeller. 74 00:04:39,464 --> 00:04:41,904 Speaker 1: They look to me like the women who run the 75 00:04:42,264 --> 00:04:48,384 Speaker 1: Women and Women First bookstore in Portlandia. They're very idealistic 76 00:04:48,424 --> 00:04:51,424 Speaker 1: women from Bambridge Island, which is this community to this 77 00:04:51,624 --> 00:04:54,864 Speaker 1: island outside of Seattle, near where I grew up. And 78 00:04:55,104 --> 00:04:57,624 Speaker 1: it's now like anything in Seattle, like it's now very 79 00:04:58,024 --> 00:05:03,104 Speaker 1: bougie and expensive, but historically like it was thought of 80 00:05:03,144 --> 00:05:06,784 Speaker 1: as this sort of granola community of like minded people, 81 00:05:06,904 --> 00:05:10,384 Speaker 1: like a lot of environmentalism. A lot of artists lived there, 82 00:05:10,904 --> 00:05:17,224 Speaker 1: and they became friends actually through this other platform for 83 00:05:17,464 --> 00:05:20,984 Speaker 1: giving things away, and they would like put things on 84 00:05:21,024 --> 00:05:23,144 Speaker 1: this list, serve and then the moderator for that list 85 00:05:23,144 --> 00:05:25,624 Speaker 1: Serve would be like, like, the things that you're giving 86 00:05:25,664 --> 00:05:28,384 Speaker 1: away aren't really that great? Is a free cycle that 87 00:05:28,464 --> 00:05:31,544 Speaker 1: they were on? Yeah, they were on freecycle exactly, and 88 00:05:31,624 --> 00:05:34,384 Speaker 1: Rockefeller had recently gotten divorced, she went, you said, from 89 00:05:34,424 --> 00:05:37,224 Speaker 1: being working class to very poor, living on food stamps 90 00:05:37,224 --> 00:05:40,384 Speaker 1: and medicaids. So she was using this list serve to 91 00:05:40,824 --> 00:05:42,664 Speaker 1: get a lot of stuff and they were trying to 92 00:05:42,664 --> 00:05:45,304 Speaker 1: give away stuff. At some point she tried to give 93 00:05:45,344 --> 00:05:50,664 Speaker 1: away like twigs she had pruned, right, Rockefeller did yeah. Yeah, 94 00:05:50,744 --> 00:05:52,984 Speaker 1: So she was giving away like all kinds of stuff. 95 00:05:52,984 --> 00:05:55,424 Speaker 1: They both were, and so she had she posted these twigs, 96 00:05:55,464 --> 00:05:57,384 Speaker 1: and the moderator of the group wrote to her and 97 00:05:57,504 --> 00:06:00,464 Speaker 1: was like, listen, lady, these twigs like this isn't a gift, 98 00:06:00,944 --> 00:06:04,264 Speaker 1: can you not? And but it turned out somebody wanted 99 00:06:04,264 --> 00:06:07,104 Speaker 1: the twigs, and the person who wanted the twigs was 100 00:06:07,224 --> 00:06:10,144 Speaker 1: Leesela Clark, And so that's how these two women met. 101 00:06:10,344 --> 00:06:13,824 Speaker 1: They both loved twigs. They love twigs, yes, And so 102 00:06:14,104 --> 00:06:16,784 Speaker 1: lizel Clark then posts to Facebook to see if people 103 00:06:16,784 --> 00:06:20,024 Speaker 1: would be interested in this idea of a less moderated 104 00:06:20,224 --> 00:06:24,064 Speaker 1: version of free cycle. They call it buy Nothing and 105 00:06:24,264 --> 00:06:27,264 Speaker 1: people go nuts. They love this, right, yeah, So you know, 106 00:06:27,344 --> 00:06:30,184 Speaker 1: within days they've got a hundreds of people in their 107 00:06:30,224 --> 00:06:32,904 Speaker 1: town using this thing. Why do you think it works? 108 00:06:32,944 --> 00:06:35,184 Speaker 1: Because there's already ways to give away free stuff, like 109 00:06:35,224 --> 00:06:37,944 Speaker 1: you said, like free cycle and other places. The founders 110 00:06:37,984 --> 00:06:41,184 Speaker 1: talk a lot about how they feel that the reason 111 00:06:41,344 --> 00:06:43,544 Speaker 1: it was so successful and really took off is that 112 00:06:43,904 --> 00:06:48,344 Speaker 1: it was really community oriented and people like could give 113 00:06:48,384 --> 00:06:50,704 Speaker 1: what they wanted and ask for what they wanted, and 114 00:06:50,784 --> 00:06:54,664 Speaker 1: like it was so cozy. I believe there's another reason 115 00:06:54,664 --> 00:06:56,704 Speaker 1: that it took off, which is that it was on Facebook. 116 00:06:56,784 --> 00:07:00,024 Speaker 1: Like it was one of these early communities to spring 117 00:07:00,144 --> 00:07:02,944 Speaker 1: up on Facebook, and it made it so easy, and 118 00:07:03,024 --> 00:07:05,824 Speaker 1: you would like come across people's buy nothing post when 119 00:07:05,824 --> 00:07:08,344 Speaker 1: you were just surfing Facebook, and I think that played 120 00:07:08,344 --> 00:07:11,744 Speaker 1: a big role plus compared to like Craigslist or freecycle. 121 00:07:12,104 --> 00:07:15,504 Speaker 1: When you don't see the person and learn something about 122 00:07:15,544 --> 00:07:17,744 Speaker 1: them and know who their friends are, like you might 123 00:07:17,784 --> 00:07:21,344 Speaker 1: feel much more comfortable and safe going to bring your 124 00:07:21,344 --> 00:07:23,544 Speaker 1: twigs to someone's house if you saw their whole profile 125 00:07:23,584 --> 00:07:27,384 Speaker 1: on Facebook exactly right, Like people will post on there, 126 00:07:28,104 --> 00:07:30,264 Speaker 1: will comment in response to your posts saying like hey, 127 00:07:30,304 --> 00:07:32,624 Speaker 1: I want those twigs. And if you can hover over 128 00:07:32,664 --> 00:07:34,544 Speaker 1: their name and see that you know so and so 129 00:07:34,664 --> 00:07:36,704 Speaker 1: in comment, or your kids go to the same school, 130 00:07:36,704 --> 00:07:40,184 Speaker 1: you're gonna feel uncomfortable. And so what sort of stuff 131 00:07:40,344 --> 00:07:44,704 Speaker 1: is being given away? Because you list crazy things A 132 00:07:44,864 --> 00:07:47,824 Speaker 1: used stick of deodorant that someone took, a half eaten 133 00:07:47,904 --> 00:07:51,144 Speaker 1: artichoke pizza that someone took. Absolutely yeah, and the list 134 00:07:51,184 --> 00:07:54,624 Speaker 1: goes on, and then you have a crazy story about 135 00:07:54,704 --> 00:07:57,864 Speaker 1: this couple who had a bunch of miscarriages that when 136 00:07:57,904 --> 00:08:02,744 Speaker 1: I'm buying nothing, yes, so Liesel and Rebecca talk about 137 00:08:02,784 --> 00:08:06,504 Speaker 1: this couple who had a bunch of miscarriages, and so 138 00:08:06,544 --> 00:08:09,344 Speaker 1: they had some you know, some baby stuff that they 139 00:08:09,344 --> 00:08:12,424 Speaker 1: had put on buy nothing and somebody said, yes, they 140 00:08:12,424 --> 00:08:13,984 Speaker 1: wanted it, and they came over to pick it up. 141 00:08:13,984 --> 00:08:15,904 Speaker 1: And it turned out this person was coming over to 142 00:08:15,944 --> 00:08:18,584 Speaker 1: pick up the stuff on behalf of a friend who 143 00:08:18,664 --> 00:08:21,944 Speaker 1: was pregnant but didn't know if she wanted to keep 144 00:08:21,984 --> 00:08:26,264 Speaker 1: the baby. And so eventually one thing led to another, 145 00:08:26,344 --> 00:08:29,824 Speaker 1: and this family, this couple who had the miscarriages, ended 146 00:08:29,864 --> 00:08:34,504 Speaker 1: up becoming the adoptive parents of this baby. No free baby. Yeah, 147 00:08:34,584 --> 00:08:39,104 Speaker 1: that's amazing. As this thing is blowing up across the country. 148 00:08:39,664 --> 00:08:44,784 Speaker 1: How are Clark and rockefellerre managing this huge thing? Yeah, 149 00:08:44,864 --> 00:08:47,464 Speaker 1: so they could They could have gone a bunch of ways, right, 150 00:08:47,504 --> 00:08:49,304 Speaker 1: Like they started this thing in their community and it 151 00:08:49,344 --> 00:08:51,584 Speaker 1: went really well, and then other people said, hey, we 152 00:08:51,624 --> 00:08:53,824 Speaker 1: want to start this in our own community, and they 153 00:08:53,864 --> 00:08:56,504 Speaker 1: could have just been like, cool, go for it. But 154 00:08:57,224 --> 00:08:59,464 Speaker 1: what they felt was that they had like a really 155 00:08:59,464 --> 00:09:01,984 Speaker 1: strong sense of what they wanted by nothing to beat, 156 00:09:02,064 --> 00:09:04,624 Speaker 1: and so they decided that every group would have to 157 00:09:04,664 --> 00:09:07,224 Speaker 1: like sort of follow certain rules that they came up with. 158 00:09:07,704 --> 00:09:10,904 Speaker 1: But these were all like sept individual Facebook groups that 159 00:09:11,624 --> 00:09:13,864 Speaker 1: it wasn't a business, it wasn't a nonprofit. It was 160 00:09:13,904 --> 00:09:16,624 Speaker 1: just like this network of Facebook groups, and they had 161 00:09:16,624 --> 00:09:19,384 Speaker 1: to have all these administrators like read it almost who 162 00:09:19,384 --> 00:09:22,824 Speaker 1: are doing all the work? That's right, yes, because Facebook 163 00:09:22,864 --> 00:09:28,464 Speaker 1: groups all have to be run by an administrator. They decided, Okay, 164 00:09:28,504 --> 00:09:30,784 Speaker 1: each of these local Facebook groups will be run by 165 00:09:30,944 --> 00:09:34,504 Speaker 1: an admin, and then we'll have another Facebook group that's 166 00:09:34,544 --> 00:09:37,504 Speaker 1: like the hub, the admin hub, where all the local 167 00:09:37,544 --> 00:09:40,424 Speaker 1: admins can belong to that and that's where worlds share 168 00:09:40,464 --> 00:09:44,184 Speaker 1: information about what's new and help problem solve. And then 169 00:09:44,224 --> 00:09:47,064 Speaker 1: they eventually had many, many, many thousands of groups in 170 00:09:47,064 --> 00:09:50,784 Speaker 1: the US and then internationally millions of members. And as 171 00:09:50,824 --> 00:09:53,384 Speaker 1: that was happening, they started creating the system where they 172 00:09:53,384 --> 00:09:57,144 Speaker 1: would have these like regional administrators to oversee the local 173 00:09:57,184 --> 00:10:01,584 Speaker 1: ones and then global admins to oversee the regional ones. 174 00:10:01,664 --> 00:10:04,464 Speaker 1: And so it started looking a lot like some kind 175 00:10:04,464 --> 00:10:08,584 Speaker 1: of corporate structure, right without any money exactly, And they 176 00:10:08,624 --> 00:10:10,984 Speaker 1: had no money, and the moderators have to follow these 177 00:10:11,024 --> 00:10:14,224 Speaker 1: ten rules of buying nothing, Yes, And the main one 178 00:10:14,264 --> 00:10:16,584 Speaker 1: you talk about is that they have to keep it 179 00:10:16,664 --> 00:10:21,304 Speaker 1: local through something called sprouting, because it's all about community exactly. 180 00:10:21,624 --> 00:10:24,024 Speaker 1: So the idea is that when it reaches a certain size, 181 00:10:24,064 --> 00:10:27,224 Speaker 1: like a thousand people, you have to break off into smaller, 182 00:10:27,304 --> 00:10:31,344 Speaker 1: geographical buy nothing groups, right, that's right. Yeah, So if 183 00:10:31,384 --> 00:10:35,784 Speaker 1: the membership goes past a thousand, you're supposed to sprout 184 00:10:35,904 --> 00:10:39,064 Speaker 1: into two or more smaller groups that are sort of 185 00:10:39,104 --> 00:10:42,464 Speaker 1: geographically more compact. The idea is to like have a 186 00:10:42,504 --> 00:10:46,024 Speaker 1: smaller environmental footprint and keep because you're driving not as 187 00:10:46,064 --> 00:10:49,944 Speaker 1: far to drop off your twigs exactly exactly. Maybe you're walking, right, 188 00:10:49,944 --> 00:10:51,624 Speaker 1: maybe you don't have to drive. Because these groups are 189 00:10:51,624 --> 00:10:54,184 Speaker 1: getting smaller and smaller, and they have this really what 190 00:10:54,304 --> 00:10:56,864 Speaker 1: I think is a really kind of lovely, idealistic vision 191 00:10:57,384 --> 00:11:00,864 Speaker 1: of these groups sprouting and becoming smaller and smaller and 192 00:11:00,944 --> 00:11:04,384 Speaker 1: so small that eventually buy nothing doesn't have to exist anymore, 193 00:11:04,424 --> 00:11:07,544 Speaker 1: because like your group is everybody on your block, and 194 00:11:07,584 --> 00:11:09,544 Speaker 1: then you can just walk over to your neighs house 195 00:11:09,544 --> 00:11:12,024 Speaker 1: and ask if they want a twig or whatever, right, 196 00:11:12,024 --> 00:11:15,264 Speaker 1: which is probably how it was for most of humanity. Right. 197 00:11:15,264 --> 00:11:18,984 Speaker 1: And they're trying to re establish having people in a community, 198 00:11:19,584 --> 00:11:23,904 Speaker 1: oh exactly, and that kind of politics of say twenty 199 00:11:24,184 --> 00:11:27,984 Speaker 1: thirteen when they started bumps up against the politics of 200 00:11:28,304 --> 00:11:31,464 Speaker 1: the Trump administration, you know, the time we're living we 201 00:11:31,464 --> 00:11:36,904 Speaker 1: were living in twenty eighteen. And sprouting causes some trouble, yes, 202 00:11:37,184 --> 00:11:40,584 Speaker 1: very much. Though specifically in this place, Jamaica Plains, which 203 00:11:40,664 --> 00:11:44,984 Speaker 1: is a suburb of Massachusetts that it's really liberal, right, Yeah, 204 00:11:45,064 --> 00:11:47,344 Speaker 1: it's like a suburb or I think it's technically a 205 00:11:47,344 --> 00:11:52,064 Speaker 1: neighborhood of Boston. So in this community there were almost 206 00:11:52,104 --> 00:11:55,824 Speaker 1: at five thousand people and they were getting pressure to 207 00:11:55,944 --> 00:11:58,704 Speaker 1: sprout because that's what you're supposed to do, and they 208 00:11:58,784 --> 00:12:02,064 Speaker 1: knew that their members would hate the idea because there 209 00:12:02,104 --> 00:12:05,744 Speaker 1: would be worries about the process of sprouting sort of 210 00:12:06,944 --> 00:12:11,864 Speaker 1: entrenching like the existing segregation and the legacy of redlining 211 00:12:12,064 --> 00:12:16,264 Speaker 1: in their community, right, right, Because the idea of sprouting 212 00:12:16,984 --> 00:12:20,584 Speaker 1: has a beautiful idea of community, but it means that 213 00:12:20,864 --> 00:12:23,784 Speaker 1: you're going to be with people of your exact same 214 00:12:23,824 --> 00:12:26,784 Speaker 1: demographic because of real estate prices. So you know, if 215 00:12:26,824 --> 00:12:28,824 Speaker 1: you're in a rich neighborhood, you're only going to be 216 00:12:28,864 --> 00:12:31,984 Speaker 1: trading your super expensive twigs with your rich neighbors, whereas 217 00:12:32,024 --> 00:12:36,584 Speaker 1: if you geographically expand it, poorer people can get your 218 00:12:36,584 --> 00:12:39,184 Speaker 1: really sweet twigs. Yeah, and so what happened in this 219 00:12:39,224 --> 00:12:43,704 Speaker 1: community is that members totally kind of revolted and we're like, 220 00:12:44,144 --> 00:12:48,184 Speaker 1: this is horrible. We're worried about segregation, We're worried about redlining. 221 00:12:48,624 --> 00:12:51,104 Speaker 1: And then what happened was that some of the regional 222 00:12:51,144 --> 00:12:55,744 Speaker 1: admins started jumping into the conversation and pushing back and saying, 223 00:12:55,904 --> 00:12:58,464 Speaker 1: you know, this is what buy nothing is all about. 224 00:12:58,584 --> 00:13:02,544 Speaker 1: You have to sprout, and tempers got heated and it 225 00:13:02,664 --> 00:13:07,744 Speaker 1: all kind of blew up, and eventually Lisa Clark, one 226 00:13:07,784 --> 00:13:11,744 Speaker 1: of the co founders, got pulled into the situation and 227 00:13:11,904 --> 00:13:14,824 Speaker 1: said something. She used some language about how she was 228 00:13:14,904 --> 00:13:18,864 Speaker 1: quote unquote saddened by the behavior of this local group, 229 00:13:19,224 --> 00:13:21,784 Speaker 1: and then everybody got really really mad because it felt 230 00:13:21,824 --> 00:13:26,424 Speaker 1: like she wasn't understanding what the underlying problem was. And 231 00:13:27,064 --> 00:13:31,144 Speaker 1: she eventually apologized, but a bunch of damage had already 232 00:13:31,144 --> 00:13:32,984 Speaker 1: been done. But I mean, how do you fix that 233 00:13:33,104 --> 00:13:36,624 Speaker 1: tension between wanting things to be hyperlocal and you to 234 00:13:36,704 --> 00:13:41,584 Speaker 1: know your neighbors and wanting to connect people in disparate 235 00:13:42,064 --> 00:13:46,224 Speaker 1: socioeconomic and racial groups who don't live in the same neighborhood. Yeah, 236 00:13:46,264 --> 00:13:48,824 Speaker 1: I mean, one thing they could have done is like 237 00:13:49,864 --> 00:13:52,264 Speaker 1: loosen things a little and said, like, hey, we do 238 00:13:52,384 --> 00:13:55,424 Speaker 1: want you to sprout, but you should figure out how 239 00:13:55,464 --> 00:13:57,864 Speaker 1: to sprout on your own and make sure you come 240 00:13:57,944 --> 00:14:02,464 Speaker 1: up with lines that don't reinforce segregation in the legacy 241 00:14:02,464 --> 00:14:06,144 Speaker 1: of redlining, for example, Right, But that's not what they did. 242 00:14:07,304 --> 00:14:09,864 Speaker 1: We'll find out what Clark and Rockefeller are actually did soon, 243 00:14:10,664 --> 00:14:13,824 Speaker 1: but first we have ad for things you actually have 244 00:14:13,904 --> 00:14:24,304 Speaker 1: to buy because we're late capitalist pigs. Lizel Clark and 245 00:14:24,384 --> 00:14:28,544 Speaker 1: Rebecca Rockefeller have this wildly popular group on Facebook called 246 00:14:28,544 --> 00:14:32,704 Speaker 1: buy Nothing, which is like this utopic idea of a 247 00:14:32,824 --> 00:14:37,704 Speaker 1: Facebook group for your hyperlocal neighborhood that shares free stuff. 248 00:14:38,504 --> 00:14:42,784 Speaker 1: But in twenty eighteen, it's starting to splinter in Jamaica 249 00:14:42,824 --> 00:14:48,504 Speaker 1: Planes Boston, this incredibly liberal area, and it's fighting about 250 00:14:48,624 --> 00:14:52,424 Speaker 1: really racial politics. So how did Clark and Rockefeller decide 251 00:14:52,424 --> 00:14:56,144 Speaker 1: to handle this situation in Jamaica Planes? So they did 252 00:14:56,184 --> 00:14:59,064 Speaker 1: this whole kind of rethinking of Buy Nothing, and when 253 00:14:59,064 --> 00:15:01,584 Speaker 1: they came out of the other side of that rethinking, 254 00:15:02,184 --> 00:15:04,224 Speaker 1: they decided that what they needed to do was like 255 00:15:04,264 --> 00:15:09,384 Speaker 1: get rid of the requirement for sprouting altogether and let 256 00:15:09,384 --> 00:15:11,784 Speaker 1: communities do it if they want, but not make it 257 00:15:11,824 --> 00:15:16,064 Speaker 1: a requirement. So they form an equity team to figure 258 00:15:16,104 --> 00:15:18,944 Speaker 1: out how to be actively anti racist and anti appression. 259 00:15:19,744 --> 00:15:22,784 Speaker 1: There was an argument about whether Buying Nothing's rules of 260 00:15:22,904 --> 00:15:29,624 Speaker 1: enforced civility were kind of classist and racist too, right, Yeah, 261 00:15:29,624 --> 00:15:32,024 Speaker 1: So there were all these things that got brought into it. 262 00:15:32,224 --> 00:15:35,264 Speaker 1: Buy Nothing had historically had this language about like being 263 00:15:35,344 --> 00:15:39,144 Speaker 1: kind and being civil, and the argument was made that 264 00:15:39,824 --> 00:15:42,464 Speaker 1: was sort of being deployed in a way that was 265 00:15:42,504 --> 00:15:47,904 Speaker 1: shutting down people from non majority, non dominant backgrounds, right, 266 00:15:47,944 --> 00:15:52,344 Speaker 1: like a person of color or a queer person or whatever, 267 00:15:52,384 --> 00:15:55,424 Speaker 1: who would maybe have a complaint and like state it 268 00:15:55,464 --> 00:15:59,224 Speaker 1: in a pissed off way about something that was happening 269 00:15:59,224 --> 00:16:02,904 Speaker 1: in our local group, for example, like people offering Confederate 270 00:16:02,944 --> 00:16:07,664 Speaker 1: flags or people offering quote unquote Native American costumes right 271 00:16:07,784 --> 00:16:10,664 Speaker 1: for Halloween. And then they would get accused of being 272 00:16:10,744 --> 00:16:14,064 Speaker 1: unkind right because they're living now in a time where 273 00:16:14,104 --> 00:16:18,784 Speaker 1: everything is political and they're on Facebook where everyone fights 274 00:16:18,784 --> 00:16:21,584 Speaker 1: about politics now, which is not when they join Facebook 275 00:16:21,624 --> 00:16:25,304 Speaker 1: what Facebook was like. So they're wondering if maybe Facebook 276 00:16:25,384 --> 00:16:27,584 Speaker 1: is the problem. Plus everyone's turned on big tech, so 277 00:16:27,624 --> 00:16:31,784 Speaker 1: they start to think that Facebook's the problem, right exactly. Yeah, 278 00:16:31,864 --> 00:16:35,864 Speaker 1: So they start to think, wait a minute, we created 279 00:16:35,904 --> 00:16:39,784 Speaker 1: this idealistic community all about buying nothing, all about sort 280 00:16:39,824 --> 00:16:43,904 Speaker 1: of like standing outside of capitalist structures. But oh no, 281 00:16:44,624 --> 00:16:47,384 Speaker 1: the place where this exists is sort of like the 282 00:16:47,424 --> 00:16:51,304 Speaker 1: most capitalists of structures of all. So they decide they 283 00:16:51,304 --> 00:16:53,744 Speaker 1: want to get off Facebook entirely. They want to make 284 00:16:53,784 --> 00:16:56,984 Speaker 1: this a big move and divest themselves from it, and 285 00:16:57,024 --> 00:17:00,464 Speaker 1: they're going to do it on Black Friday of twenty nineteen, 286 00:17:00,864 --> 00:17:05,424 Speaker 1: which is celebrated as buy Nothing Day in buy nothing world. Yes, 287 00:17:05,744 --> 00:17:09,544 Speaker 1: they post this announcement on buy Nothing Day, is saying 288 00:17:10,024 --> 00:17:15,104 Speaker 1: they are starting a platform called soup Soop, which stands 289 00:17:15,144 --> 00:17:19,024 Speaker 1: for share on our platform, and it is going to 290 00:17:19,104 --> 00:17:22,824 Speaker 1: be this like independent platform, and they don't want it 291 00:17:22,864 --> 00:17:25,264 Speaker 1: to have anything to do with corporate interests. And so 292 00:17:25,704 --> 00:17:28,544 Speaker 1: what they're doing is they're going to their community to 293 00:17:28,584 --> 00:17:30,984 Speaker 1: tell them about it first, and they have a little 294 00:17:30,984 --> 00:17:33,304 Speaker 1: website they've set up where they're going to take donations. 295 00:17:33,344 --> 00:17:35,944 Speaker 1: And so what happens after they make this announcement is 296 00:17:36,104 --> 00:17:39,344 Speaker 1: there's a mini revolt in their community. And the reason 297 00:17:39,584 --> 00:17:42,704 Speaker 1: is that another one of the rules of buy Nothing 298 00:17:43,264 --> 00:17:45,024 Speaker 1: is that you don't go on buy Nothing and ask 299 00:17:45,104 --> 00:17:48,064 Speaker 1: for money, which they have just done by saying, Hey, 300 00:17:48,104 --> 00:17:50,184 Speaker 1: we're starting our own platform, can you give us money 301 00:17:50,184 --> 00:17:53,304 Speaker 1: to fund it? Oh, then that's like the first rule 302 00:17:53,344 --> 00:17:55,184 Speaker 1: of fight club. I mean, that's a serious rule. I 303 00:17:55,184 --> 00:17:58,464 Speaker 1: mean it's called by nothing, and to be fair, some 304 00:17:58,504 --> 00:18:00,624 Speaker 1: people feel that way, and other people think it's a 305 00:18:00,664 --> 00:18:03,784 Speaker 1: good idea and they donate. But at this point they 306 00:18:03,824 --> 00:18:06,904 Speaker 1: have millions of people using buy Nothing, but they raise 307 00:18:07,144 --> 00:18:09,584 Speaker 1: less than twenty thousand dollars, which in the world, as 308 00:18:09,624 --> 00:18:12,104 Speaker 1: you know, Joel, the world of tech is like not 309 00:18:12,184 --> 00:18:14,064 Speaker 1: a lot of money to build. I guess when people 310 00:18:14,104 --> 00:18:18,784 Speaker 1: are giving each other twigs, twenty thousand is about right, ye, right, 311 00:18:18,904 --> 00:18:21,904 Speaker 1: twenty thousands actually a lot of money. So it should 312 00:18:21,904 --> 00:18:24,944 Speaker 1: be noted that because they raised only twenty thousand dollars, 313 00:18:24,944 --> 00:18:27,264 Speaker 1: when they tried to build their own platform, they ended 314 00:18:27,344 --> 00:18:29,424 Speaker 1: up like just scrapping the idea and giving all the 315 00:18:29,424 --> 00:18:34,704 Speaker 1: money back and continuing to grow on Facebook. So while 316 00:18:34,784 --> 00:18:39,864 Speaker 1: this fight is brewing, the pandemic happens and everyone is 317 00:18:39,864 --> 00:18:42,824 Speaker 1: stuck at home and buy Nothing like so many other things, 318 00:18:42,824 --> 00:18:46,544 Speaker 1: just blows up, right exactly, And so they went from 319 00:18:46,584 --> 00:18:51,624 Speaker 1: like from nothing in twenty thirteen to four million members 320 00:18:51,744 --> 00:18:55,904 Speaker 1: during the pandemic. They added about a million members during 321 00:18:55,904 --> 00:18:58,824 Speaker 1: that first period of the pandemic because people were staying 322 00:18:58,904 --> 00:19:02,104 Speaker 1: home and not going to stores and going on Facebook 323 00:19:02,144 --> 00:19:04,504 Speaker 1: and trading things on Buy Nothing because they realized that 324 00:19:04,504 --> 00:19:07,384 Speaker 1: could keep them from from having to shop, and probably 325 00:19:07,504 --> 00:19:10,744 Speaker 1: they wanted social interaction, yeah, absolutely, And people were sharing 326 00:19:10,864 --> 00:19:15,224 Speaker 1: like you know, masks and over the counter medications and 327 00:19:15,344 --> 00:19:17,944 Speaker 1: pandemic related things too, and supporting each other. And there 328 00:19:17,944 --> 00:19:20,544 Speaker 1: were places where it became a kind of like mutual 329 00:19:20,584 --> 00:19:22,864 Speaker 1: aid that was happening as part of the pandemic, with 330 00:19:23,424 --> 00:19:26,224 Speaker 1: you know, neighbors just like coming together in informal ways 331 00:19:26,224 --> 00:19:30,784 Speaker 1: supporting one another, and then at some point they decide 332 00:19:31,064 --> 00:19:34,144 Speaker 1: that they really need to get off Facebook, and they 333 00:19:34,184 --> 00:19:37,464 Speaker 1: need to do it by starting their own company, which 334 00:19:37,504 --> 00:19:40,704 Speaker 1: they must know is going to piss people off. Yeah, 335 00:19:40,744 --> 00:19:43,624 Speaker 1: so what was happening during the pandemic was there were 336 00:19:43,624 --> 00:19:48,264 Speaker 1: just these two women who were working these really you know, 337 00:19:48,424 --> 00:19:52,024 Speaker 1: nine hour days on top of having other jobs, having families. 338 00:19:52,784 --> 00:19:54,744 Speaker 1: They're literally they have millions of people doing this and 339 00:19:54,784 --> 00:19:59,344 Speaker 1: they're not making anything, right, yeah, exactly, and so they 340 00:19:59,424 --> 00:20:02,624 Speaker 1: really start to feel like they're reaching some kind of 341 00:20:02,664 --> 00:20:06,664 Speaker 1: breaking point. And then they get this message from a 342 00:20:06,664 --> 00:20:11,384 Speaker 1: man named Tunji Williams, a former lawyer who had started 343 00:20:11,424 --> 00:20:16,464 Speaker 1: a tech company fairly successfully. This is when a man 344 00:20:16,784 --> 00:20:19,144 Speaker 1: finally enters the scene. This is when trouble is going 345 00:20:19,184 --> 00:20:23,144 Speaker 1: to start. I'm very sure that's the first man in 346 00:20:23,184 --> 00:20:26,424 Speaker 1: this story, right. So they get a message from this man, 347 00:20:26,584 --> 00:20:30,384 Speaker 1: Tenji Williams. They get on the phone and they decide 348 00:20:30,424 --> 00:20:33,584 Speaker 1: that they this time are really going to start something together. 349 00:20:34,024 --> 00:20:37,544 Speaker 1: And unlike the previous time where they really were idealistic 350 00:20:37,544 --> 00:20:39,384 Speaker 1: about it and thought they would just raise money from 351 00:20:39,384 --> 00:20:41,984 Speaker 1: their community and be scrappy about it, this time they 352 00:20:42,024 --> 00:20:44,864 Speaker 1: realize that that didn't work and they're just going to 353 00:20:44,944 --> 00:20:47,864 Speaker 1: start a company and raise money in a more traditional 354 00:20:47,864 --> 00:20:51,144 Speaker 1: way at first through family and friends, and so this 355 00:20:51,264 --> 00:20:56,224 Speaker 1: time they raised one hundred thousand dollars. So they decide 356 00:20:56,264 --> 00:20:58,304 Speaker 1: to start this company, which they must know is going 357 00:20:58,344 --> 00:21:02,344 Speaker 1: to annoy people, but they proceed anyway they do. I mean, 358 00:21:02,384 --> 00:21:05,344 Speaker 1: I think they have a sense that there could be tension. 359 00:21:06,944 --> 00:21:10,584 Speaker 1: I don't think they realize at the outset how hard 360 00:21:10,624 --> 00:21:13,224 Speaker 1: it is to do what they're trying to do, how 361 00:21:13,224 --> 00:21:16,904 Speaker 1: hard it is to take this like thriving Facebook based community, 362 00:21:17,464 --> 00:21:21,424 Speaker 1: which thrives in part because of all of these things 363 00:21:21,464 --> 00:21:24,504 Speaker 1: Facebook has built into its platform to get all of 364 00:21:24,584 --> 00:21:27,664 Speaker 1: us to keep coming back to Facebook, right, and you know, 365 00:21:27,744 --> 00:21:29,384 Speaker 1: all these things that you don't even think about. It's 366 00:21:29,384 --> 00:21:33,264 Speaker 1: not just like it's not just the programmers who build 367 00:21:33,264 --> 00:21:36,984 Speaker 1: Facebook and provide the platform or the computing power. It's 368 00:21:37,024 --> 00:21:41,304 Speaker 1: also it's also like an aspect of the marketing. Right. 369 00:21:41,344 --> 00:21:44,224 Speaker 1: It's the fact that if you're on Facebook, buy nothing 370 00:21:44,304 --> 00:21:45,864 Speaker 1: is going to pop up because you're in the buy 371 00:21:45,904 --> 00:21:48,864 Speaker 1: nothing group, and so you'll see people's posts. Whereas if 372 00:21:48,904 --> 00:21:51,184 Speaker 1: you need to use an independent app to be on 373 00:21:51,264 --> 00:21:53,864 Speaker 1: buy Nothing, you have to remember to open that app 374 00:21:53,984 --> 00:21:58,464 Speaker 1: and you know, you can't see whether you have friends 375 00:21:58,464 --> 00:22:00,624 Speaker 1: in common with the other people on the app. You 376 00:22:00,664 --> 00:22:03,824 Speaker 1: can't see where they went to college. Right, Yeah, there's 377 00:22:03,864 --> 00:22:07,624 Speaker 1: just something about seeing everyone's face and their life that 378 00:22:07,704 --> 00:22:11,024 Speaker 1: makes this a more welcoming kind of warm community. Like 379 00:22:11,024 --> 00:22:14,984 Speaker 1: as much as you want to hate Facebook, the original 380 00:22:15,024 --> 00:22:19,824 Speaker 1: idea of Facebook still works in that way. Yeah, yeah, 381 00:22:19,864 --> 00:22:22,904 Speaker 1: that's right, And so their app just sucks. Right, I've 382 00:22:22,944 --> 00:22:25,224 Speaker 1: tried the app obviously, while reporting on the story, I 383 00:22:25,304 --> 00:22:27,704 Speaker 1: spent a lot of time on the app, and it 384 00:22:27,824 --> 00:22:30,224 Speaker 1: is a little more maybe even less free cycle than 385 00:22:30,704 --> 00:22:34,024 Speaker 1: like a Craigslist or something, Right, So that was one issue. 386 00:22:34,064 --> 00:22:36,664 Speaker 1: But then as you said, also they had one hundred 387 00:22:36,664 --> 00:22:39,224 Speaker 1: thousand dollars at first, that still not that much money. 388 00:22:39,464 --> 00:22:43,264 Speaker 1: They eventually raised another like four hundred thousand dollars also 389 00:22:43,384 --> 00:22:45,264 Speaker 1: in the world of tech, not a lot of money. 390 00:22:45,544 --> 00:22:49,064 Speaker 1: And so they subcontracted the building of this app to 391 00:22:49,184 --> 00:22:53,224 Speaker 1: this like development shop in Poland, which made a version 392 00:22:53,264 --> 00:22:56,224 Speaker 1: of the app that's especially at first like kind of clunky, 393 00:22:56,344 --> 00:22:59,264 Speaker 1: kind of buggy in general, like it wasn't a very 394 00:22:59,344 --> 00:23:02,024 Speaker 1: robust experience, and they are the rules of the app 395 00:23:02,104 --> 00:23:04,904 Speaker 1: that you have to sprout, like is it about having 396 00:23:04,944 --> 00:23:09,184 Speaker 1: a local community or is it about rich import trading 397 00:23:09,304 --> 00:23:14,504 Speaker 1: their couch duffing. So through that Jamaica plane experience, the 398 00:23:14,544 --> 00:23:19,384 Speaker 1: founders became so convinced that this idea of sprouting that 399 00:23:19,384 --> 00:23:23,304 Speaker 1: they built into the original idea was wrong and misguided 400 00:23:23,784 --> 00:23:26,224 Speaker 1: that they decided that in the app there shouldn't be 401 00:23:26,224 --> 00:23:28,384 Speaker 1: any boundaries at all. So what you do is, if 402 00:23:28,424 --> 00:23:31,424 Speaker 1: you have the app, you open the app and you say, 403 00:23:31,864 --> 00:23:35,544 Speaker 1: I'm interested in giving things to and getting things from 404 00:23:35,584 --> 00:23:40,904 Speaker 1: people within either like a point five mile radius or 405 00:23:40,984 --> 00:23:43,424 Speaker 1: a twenty mile radius. And then they try to figure 406 00:23:43,424 --> 00:23:46,064 Speaker 1: out how they're going to make money in this company 407 00:23:46,224 --> 00:23:50,584 Speaker 1: that they've launched, and they're screwed because it's called buy Nothing. 408 00:23:50,664 --> 00:23:54,144 Speaker 1: So what can they possibly do? It's so hard, Yeah, 409 00:23:54,184 --> 00:23:56,864 Speaker 1: I mean, they just keep coming up against the fact 410 00:23:56,904 --> 00:23:59,984 Speaker 1: that they're buying nothing, right, and so they have kind 411 00:23:59,984 --> 00:24:03,304 Speaker 1: of made a promise that they're not gonna like run 412 00:24:03,344 --> 00:24:06,224 Speaker 1: targeted ads, and they're also not going to mind people's 413 00:24:06,264 --> 00:24:11,584 Speaker 1: personal data. The idea that is the most straightforward and 414 00:24:11,624 --> 00:24:17,704 Speaker 1: logical that they had was to allow people to post 415 00:24:17,744 --> 00:24:20,264 Speaker 1: on buy Nothing that they would help with things like 416 00:24:20,464 --> 00:24:27,064 Speaker 1: delivery or fixing things. So yeah, so like if I 417 00:24:27,144 --> 00:24:29,704 Speaker 1: have a couch and usual want a couch, but neither 418 00:24:29,744 --> 00:24:33,944 Speaker 1: of us have trucks, somebody can offer to drive my 419 00:24:34,064 --> 00:24:36,504 Speaker 1: couch to you, and then we have to pay that 420 00:24:36,544 --> 00:24:39,544 Speaker 1: person and buy nothing. Takes a cut. Okay, so it's 421 00:24:39,544 --> 00:24:42,104 Speaker 1: a pay to pay for labor because you're still not 422 00:24:42,184 --> 00:24:45,264 Speaker 1: buying anything. And so people don't dig that. I assume 423 00:24:46,664 --> 00:24:51,304 Speaker 1: people don't love these ideas. No um. But then furthermore, 424 00:24:52,264 --> 00:24:54,344 Speaker 1: they're running out of money, right, So they're going out 425 00:24:54,344 --> 00:24:56,824 Speaker 1: to Silicon Valley and they're they're paying for this out 426 00:24:56,824 --> 00:25:01,024 Speaker 1: of their own pockets. They're in the red, right, Yeah, 427 00:25:01,064 --> 00:25:05,344 Speaker 1: and lisl Clark is covering the business expenses, which are 428 00:25:05,384 --> 00:25:08,344 Speaker 1: about five thousand dollars a month, which isn't nothing at all. 429 00:25:08,624 --> 00:25:11,264 Speaker 1: And they've tried to raise money from Silicon Valley. They 430 00:25:11,304 --> 00:25:14,704 Speaker 1: send some emails, you know, they send some messages through 431 00:25:14,744 --> 00:25:18,024 Speaker 1: the website's of venture capital firms. They have no connections, 432 00:25:18,024 --> 00:25:19,944 Speaker 1: they have no idea like how to reach these people, 433 00:25:19,944 --> 00:25:23,184 Speaker 1: but they try and it's nothing. You know, they get 434 00:25:23,264 --> 00:25:27,744 Speaker 1: some responses but no money. But also they have a company, 435 00:25:27,824 --> 00:25:33,304 Speaker 1: which is where people don't spend money. It's a tough sell. Yeah, 436 00:25:33,424 --> 00:25:38,464 Speaker 1: it's tough, Yes, absolutely, and they're still on Facebook, right. Yeah. 437 00:25:38,544 --> 00:25:41,744 Speaker 1: They posted information on their website that you could use 438 00:25:41,784 --> 00:25:44,424 Speaker 1: to start your own Facebook group if you wanted, but 439 00:25:44,504 --> 00:25:48,464 Speaker 1: they weren't deeply involved in that formally at all. They 440 00:25:48,464 --> 00:25:50,784 Speaker 1: were focused on this app that really not a ton 441 00:25:50,824 --> 00:25:54,704 Speaker 1: of people were using, and Facebook. The Facebook groups were 442 00:25:54,784 --> 00:25:57,824 Speaker 1: really continuing to grow and grow, and by last year 443 00:25:57,904 --> 00:26:01,184 Speaker 1: they were up past seven million people. Meanwhile, there's this 444 00:26:01,424 --> 00:26:05,824 Speaker 1: one woman is particularly pissed off, Andrea Schwalb. Where is 445 00:26:05,864 --> 00:26:08,944 Speaker 1: she and why is she? Some hat? So? Andrea Schwalb 446 00:26:09,264 --> 00:26:12,464 Speaker 1: is a long time buy Nothing admin and she has 447 00:26:12,464 --> 00:26:15,904 Speaker 1: been getting gradually more and more pissed off at the 448 00:26:15,984 --> 00:26:19,104 Speaker 1: various changes that are taking place at buy Nothing. She 449 00:26:19,224 --> 00:26:24,864 Speaker 1: starts her own like rogue buy Nothing group. It's called 450 00:26:25,264 --> 00:26:32,984 Speaker 1: Gifting with Integrity og Buy Nothing Support Group. Yeah, yeah, 451 00:26:33,104 --> 00:26:38,784 Speaker 1: no absolutely, Andreas started like including all these old buy 452 00:26:38,904 --> 00:26:42,464 Speaker 1: nothing documents that harken back to the kind of earlier 453 00:26:42,504 --> 00:26:47,704 Speaker 1: way of doing things at buy Nothing, including sprouting and 454 00:26:48,224 --> 00:26:51,544 Speaker 1: not talking about money. But this has to piss them off. 455 00:26:51,584 --> 00:26:54,264 Speaker 1: They've tried to start this company and instead everyone's still 456 00:26:54,344 --> 00:26:57,544 Speaker 1: doing the free thing on Facebook, and so eventually they 457 00:26:57,984 --> 00:27:00,424 Speaker 1: try and stop them, Right, they go to war with 458 00:27:00,464 --> 00:27:05,944 Speaker 1: their own people. Yes, so they trademarked the phrase buy nothing. Actually, 459 00:27:05,944 --> 00:27:08,424 Speaker 1: that's got to be hard, actually, yeah right, it's I mean, 460 00:27:08,464 --> 00:27:13,904 Speaker 1: it's it's ironic, it's really interesting. But they're a business now, right, 461 00:27:13,944 --> 00:27:16,864 Speaker 1: So it's also it's both like kind of like what 462 00:27:16,944 --> 00:27:18,744 Speaker 1: they did? What? How could you do that? And so 463 00:27:18,784 --> 00:27:23,744 Speaker 1: they trademark this phrase, and they filed a complaint to 464 00:27:24,064 --> 00:27:29,824 Speaker 1: Facebook about the OG group, saying this OG group has 465 00:27:29,864 --> 00:27:32,464 Speaker 1: nothing to do with us. They're a totally separate thing, 466 00:27:32,504 --> 00:27:35,064 Speaker 1: but they have buy Nothing in their name, and they're 467 00:27:35,104 --> 00:27:38,464 Speaker 1: making people think that they're representatives of buy Nothing and 468 00:27:38,544 --> 00:27:41,704 Speaker 1: they're not. So that OG group what they did was 469 00:27:42,144 --> 00:27:46,744 Speaker 1: they scrubbed everything buy Nothing related from their Facebook groups, 470 00:27:46,784 --> 00:27:48,784 Speaker 1: from their documents, from their website, and they kind of 471 00:27:48,824 --> 00:27:53,184 Speaker 1: like re emerged as something called just Gifting with Integrity. 472 00:27:53,464 --> 00:27:57,384 Speaker 1: So how big is Gifting with Integrity versus the original 473 00:27:57,464 --> 00:28:02,064 Speaker 1: Buy Nothing? To be fair, the original Buy Nothing is 474 00:28:02,104 --> 00:28:05,744 Speaker 1: still orders of magnitude larger than Gifting with Integrity, But 475 00:28:06,304 --> 00:28:11,104 Speaker 1: Gifting with Integrity does have thousands of admin members, and 476 00:28:11,144 --> 00:28:13,344 Speaker 1: in fact, my local group in Fort Collins is one 477 00:28:13,384 --> 00:28:15,664 Speaker 1: of these groups. And my local group in Fort Collins 478 00:28:16,464 --> 00:28:21,744 Speaker 1: is now called something else. It's now called the Northeast 479 00:28:21,904 --> 00:28:27,584 Speaker 1: Fort Collins Gifting Community. No integrity, no integrity, interesting thing. Yeah, 480 00:28:27,664 --> 00:28:31,304 Speaker 1: what do you think is going to happen here? I 481 00:28:31,384 --> 00:28:34,384 Speaker 1: hate to speculate. I'm a reporter. I hate to speculate. 482 00:28:36,184 --> 00:28:38,464 Speaker 1: This could go either way, right or third way? Yeah, 483 00:28:38,464 --> 00:28:41,184 Speaker 1: I really and I should I should say that as 484 00:28:41,224 --> 00:28:43,464 Speaker 1: I was, you know, all this drama was unfolding, and 485 00:28:43,504 --> 00:28:45,904 Speaker 1: I thought the story was finished, and I thought I'd 486 00:28:45,904 --> 00:28:48,184 Speaker 1: written the last sentences. I had a draft where I'd 487 00:28:48,184 --> 00:28:51,344 Speaker 1: written the last sentences that were like, Okay, you know, 488 00:28:51,344 --> 00:28:53,664 Speaker 1: it doesn't look like doesn't look good for Buy Nothing. 489 00:28:53,784 --> 00:28:56,224 Speaker 1: But then I had a last couple of phone calls 490 00:28:56,224 --> 00:29:01,504 Speaker 1: with the founders and they told me that actually, and 491 00:29:01,584 --> 00:29:04,144 Speaker 1: maybe it was because they were re engaging with Facebook. 492 00:29:04,144 --> 00:29:06,264 Speaker 1: I don't know why, but the numbers of users of 493 00:29:06,264 --> 00:29:09,384 Speaker 1: the app had recently gone up. Maybe they now have 494 00:29:09,424 --> 00:29:11,544 Speaker 1: all the ingredients in place to figure out how to 495 00:29:11,584 --> 00:29:14,504 Speaker 1: make this out work, or maybe not. Who knows. Wahini Vara, 496 00:29:14,704 --> 00:29:17,624 Speaker 1: you wrote the Battle for the soul of Buy Nothing 497 00:29:17,704 --> 00:29:20,584 Speaker 1: for Wired Magazine. Thank you for telling us about it. 498 00:29:20,984 --> 00:29:24,264 Speaker 1: Thank you for having me. This was fun. I signed 499 00:29:24,344 --> 00:29:27,544 Speaker 1: up for my local Buy Nothing group on Facebook. It's 500 00:29:27,544 --> 00:29:31,264 Speaker 1: been almost six days and it hasn't accepted my request. 501 00:29:32,424 --> 00:29:35,704 Speaker 1: So because I wasn't admitted, I turned to the second 502 00:29:35,704 --> 00:29:40,224 Speaker 1: best thing. There's an Instagram account that posts the best 503 00:29:40,304 --> 00:29:44,224 Speaker 1: of buy nothing, or at least the weirdest. I found 504 00:29:44,504 --> 00:29:50,504 Speaker 1: a Tommy Chung autographed thong, toilet paper roll, binoculars, an 505 00:29:50,504 --> 00:29:54,864 Speaker 1: iPhone three G still in its packaging, a chandelier made 506 00:29:54,864 --> 00:30:00,064 Speaker 1: out of Barbie dolls, Chrissy Teagan's Cravings cookbook, and a 507 00:30:00,264 --> 00:30:03,584 Speaker 1: life size cutout of George Clooney, which I will be 508 00:30:03,624 --> 00:30:07,664 Speaker 1: inquiring about. Get Ready los velis buy Nothing group. I 509 00:30:07,744 --> 00:30:13,424 Speaker 1: am coming in hot. At the end of the show, 510 00:30:13,744 --> 00:30:16,904 Speaker 1: what's next for joel Stein? Maybe he'll take a never 511 00:30:17,144 --> 00:30:22,064 Speaker 1: poke around online. Our show today was produced by Mola 512 00:30:22,144 --> 00:30:26,904 Speaker 1: Board and Nisha Bencutt. It was edited by Lydia Gencott. 513 00:30:27,304 --> 00:30:31,424 Speaker 1: Our engineer is Amanda kay Way and our executive producer 514 00:30:31,544 --> 00:30:35,304 Speaker 1: is Katherine Girado. And our theme song was written and 515 00:30:35,304 --> 00:30:38,624 Speaker 1: performed by Jonathan Colton. And a special thanks to my 516 00:30:38,704 --> 00:30:42,824 Speaker 1: voice coach Vicky Merrick and my consulting producer laurenz Alaska. 517 00:30:43,264 --> 00:30:46,744 Speaker 1: To find more Pushkin podcast, listen on the iHeartRadio app 518 00:30:47,064 --> 00:30:50,904 Speaker 1: Apple podcasts or wherever you listen to your podcasts. I'm 519 00:30:50,944 --> 00:30:53,184 Speaker 1: Joel Stein, and this is the story of the week. 520 00:30:54,584 --> 00:30:56,224 Speaker 1: What's the last thing you got off? If you're buy 521 00:30:56,304 --> 00:30:59,424 Speaker 1: Nothing group? My son was in a summer theater production 522 00:30:59,864 --> 00:31:02,224 Speaker 1: and I'm in the group, but I'm not that active, 523 00:31:02,224 --> 00:31:04,184 Speaker 1: So I asked my mom to post it. I was like, mom, 524 00:31:04,184 --> 00:31:08,024 Speaker 1: can you post something ask for like something that could 525 00:31:08,024 --> 00:31:10,344 Speaker 1: be part of a leopard cut costume. And she posted 526 00:31:10,384 --> 00:31:13,384 Speaker 1: in like within hours somebody had offered a leopard tail 527 00:31:13,424 --> 00:31:18,384 Speaker 1: and leopards. That's really specific. That's amazing, it's great. I 528 00:31:18,464 --> 00:31:19,424 Speaker 1: highly recommend it.