WEBVTT - Pushkin Honors Juneteenth 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:27.236 Pushkin high listeners at Jacob Weisberg Here, I'm the CEO 0:00:27.236 --> 0:00:31.316 of Pushkin Industries. At Pushkin, we think of Juneteenth as 0:00:31.316 --> 0:00:34.196 an opportunity to reflect on the past and think about 0:00:34.196 --> 0:00:36.876 the future. How do we build a more just and 0:00:36.996 --> 0:00:40.916 equitable society. We strive to make podcasts that help to 0:00:40.956 --> 0:00:45.036 answer that question, and in honor of Juneteenth, we're highlighting 0:00:45.076 --> 0:00:48.996 two of them. Be Anti Racist is hosted by doctor 0:00:49.076 --> 0:00:54.596 Ibram X Kendy, an author, professor, activist, and historian. His 0:00:54.676 --> 0:00:57.236 book How to Be an Anti Racist has become a 0:00:57.236 --> 0:01:01.916 guide for anyone interested in dismantling the structures that racism creates. 0:01:03.356 --> 0:01:05.916 The podcast gives him a chance to dive deep into 0:01:05.956 --> 0:01:09.756 issues like immigration, to sports, and voting rights with guests 0:01:09.756 --> 0:01:13.956 like Julian Castro and Jamel Hill. Who're going to You're 0:01:13.956 --> 0:01:17.436 An excerpt from a conversation doctor Kendy had recently with 0:01:17.516 --> 0:01:21.476 author and political analyst Heather cmghee. They focus on the 0:01:21.516 --> 0:01:24.836 economic costs of racism for everyone, not just those in 0:01:24.916 --> 0:01:28.036 black or brown communities, and how diversity can lead to 0:01:28.076 --> 0:01:32.716 economic prosperity for all. Then you'll hear a truly remarkable 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:36.476 story of bridging racial divides. Darrell Davis is a black 0:01:36.556 --> 0:01:40.556 jazz musician who has convinced hundreds of KKK members to 0:01:40.796 --> 0:01:44.276 leave the clan. It all started with one conversation in 0:01:44.356 --> 0:01:48.356 a jazz club because Darrell was interested in understanding people 0:01:48.396 --> 0:01:52.476 with wildly different views. Darrell appeared on A Slight Change 0:01:52.476 --> 0:01:56.716 of Plans, a podcast hosted by doctor Maya Shankar. Shankar 0:01:56.836 --> 0:01:59.836 is a cognitive scientist who's fascinated by what happens when 0:01:59.876 --> 0:02:03.036 we find ourselves at the brink of change, and she's 0:02:03.036 --> 0:02:06.156 got a knack for getting people, including Hillary Clinton and 0:02:06.196 --> 0:02:10.156 Tiffany Hattisch to open up to her. Here's Doctor Kendy 0:02:10.356 --> 0:02:21.516 on Be Anti Racist Welcome to Be Anti Racist in 0:02:21.636 --> 0:02:25.796 Action podcasts where we discuss how to diagnose, dismantle, and 0:02:25.836 --> 0:02:30.036 abolish racism, how to save humanity from the divisiveness of 0:02:30.196 --> 0:02:34.796 racist ideas and the destructiveness of racist power and policy, 0:02:35.116 --> 0:02:38.356 How to free humanity through the unity of anti racist 0:02:38.436 --> 0:02:43.596 ideas and the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy. 0:02:44.196 --> 0:02:47.676 On b Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the 0:02:47.756 --> 0:02:52.116 impossible possible and how to bring into being what modern 0:02:52.196 --> 0:02:58.716 humans have never known, a just and equitable world. You ready, 0:02:59.716 --> 0:03:11.396 Let's roll in the night thirties and forties, the United 0:03:11.436 --> 0:03:14.716 States went on a nationwide building boom of public amenities 0:03:14.756 --> 0:03:19.636 funded by tax dollars, which in Montgomery, Alabama, included the 0:03:19.756 --> 0:03:24.836 Oak Park Pool, which was the grandest one for miles, 0:03:24.836 --> 0:03:29.876 except the Oak Park Pool was for whites only. When 0:03:29.876 --> 0:03:34.676 a federal court finally deemed this unconstitutional, the reaction of 0:03:34.676 --> 0:03:38.596 the town council was swift. They decided they would drain 0:03:38.876 --> 0:03:42.796 the public pool rather than let black families swim to 0:03:44.436 --> 0:03:51.556 They never rebuilt the pool. Racism has a cost for everyone. 0:03:52.756 --> 0:03:56.196 HEATHERN McGee is an expert in economic and social policy 0:03:56.516 --> 0:03:59.516 and the author of the best selling book To Some 0:03:59.716 --> 0:04:02.916 of Us, What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can 0:04:02.996 --> 0:04:08.716 Prosper Together. Heather explodes one of the greatest racial myths, 0:04:09.276 --> 0:04:13.076 that white people lose as people of color gain. She 0:04:13.196 --> 0:04:19.476 shows that as racism wins, we all lose. Heather is 0:04:19.476 --> 0:04:22.676 one of America's sharpest thinkers. The former president of the 0:04:22.756 --> 0:04:28.236 inequality focused think Take Demos and its drafted legislation, testified 0:04:28.276 --> 0:04:33.036 before Congress, and contributed regularly to new shows, including NBC's 0:04:33.116 --> 0:04:36.676 Meet the Press. She now chairs the board of Color 0:04:36.716 --> 0:04:42.436 of Change, the nation's largest online racial Justice organization. I 0:04:42.596 --> 0:04:46.156 sat down with Heather McGee recently to learn how by 0:04:46.196 --> 0:04:50.476 investing in each other we can all achieve better jobs, 0:04:50.636 --> 0:04:56.236 better health, better democracy, better schools, better neighborhoods for our kids, 0:04:56.276 --> 0:05:01.876 and so much more. Heather is always is truly an 0:05:01.876 --> 0:05:05.956 honor to speak with you. Your book, The Some of 0:05:06.076 --> 0:05:09.596 Us is the type of book that I learned from 0:05:09.636 --> 0:05:12.236 that I think many Americans and many people around the 0:05:12.276 --> 0:05:15.956 world can learn from. I wrote this book because I 0:05:15.996 --> 0:05:20.036 felt like we were missing something in the great pursuit 0:05:20.076 --> 0:05:23.796 of a society. It should be to have progress, to 0:05:23.876 --> 0:05:28.556 have people have less want and more joy, people to 0:05:28.716 --> 0:05:35.036 have more of the fruits of economic progress and technological progress, 0:05:35.116 --> 0:05:39.476 and for our problems to be solved generation after generation, right, 0:05:39.796 --> 0:05:45.356 And it felt like that progress was slowing down, slash reversing. 0:05:46.036 --> 0:05:52.436 When some Americans imagine the transformation of this country, they 0:05:52.476 --> 0:05:55.476 imagine that they're going to lose if we actually create 0:05:55.636 --> 0:06:00.596 inequitable and just anti racist America. And it seems, as 0:06:00.636 --> 0:06:03.236 you've written, that that's based on a zero sum myth. 0:06:04.556 --> 0:06:08.556 So I left a career in economic policy to go 0:06:08.596 --> 0:06:13.436 out on the quixotic journey in some ways to find 0:06:14.036 --> 0:06:16.996 the answer to the question of why can't we seem 0:06:17.036 --> 0:06:18.916 to have nice things? And what are the roots of 0:06:18.916 --> 0:06:22.596 our dysfunction? And it's there that I came upon this 0:06:22.876 --> 0:06:26.396 paradigm of the zero sum. It's a term that means 0:06:26.436 --> 0:06:30.316 there's no such thing as mutual progress when you have 0:06:30.996 --> 0:06:34.276 people who are in a competition with one another. If 0:06:34.396 --> 0:06:38.156 Team A scores one more point, team B scores one 0:06:38.276 --> 0:06:41.436 less point, the points will always add up to zero, 0:06:41.516 --> 0:06:44.996 positive on one side, negative on the other. Progress for 0:06:45.396 --> 0:06:47.876 team A has to come at the expense of team B. 0:06:48.556 --> 0:06:54.236 There's a limited or fixed pie. And that idea resonated 0:06:54.316 --> 0:06:56.356 so deeply with me. It sort of gave a name 0:06:56.436 --> 0:06:59.836 and a description to something I had sensed my whole life, 0:07:00.476 --> 0:07:08.916 this fear that when white supremacy falls, that the world 0:07:09.196 --> 0:07:15.076 will become one that white people should fear. Therefore, racism 0:07:15.316 --> 0:07:18.276 is really great for white people, really terrible for people 0:07:18.316 --> 0:07:22.196 of color, and so their self interest is in preserving 0:07:22.316 --> 0:07:25.556 racism at all costs. And it's the at all costs 0:07:25.556 --> 0:07:29.276 piece that really felt so important for me to lay out, 0:07:29.316 --> 0:07:33.996 what are the costs of racism to our entire society, 0:07:34.036 --> 0:07:38.196 What exactly is the price white people are willing to 0:07:38.276 --> 0:07:42.316 pay to keep the system as it has been. And 0:07:42.636 --> 0:07:46.516 once I started looking, the list just kept growing, and 0:07:47.076 --> 0:07:49.156 that made it clear to me that we have these 0:07:49.676 --> 0:07:55.556 self interested elites packaging marketing, selling this zero sum lie 0:07:55.596 --> 0:07:59.076 to most white Americans, and they're doing it for their 0:07:59.116 --> 0:08:03.916 own profit. But our side, when we only talk about 0:08:04.036 --> 0:08:06.796 racism as something that's good for white people, are kind 0:08:06.796 --> 0:08:10.076 of like helping out a little bit, right provocation. The 0:08:10.156 --> 0:08:12.276 agitation that made me feel like, Okay, maybe I do 0:08:12.396 --> 0:08:15.596 have something to add to this conversation was we haven't 0:08:15.636 --> 0:08:18.316 told the full story of what it has cost this 0:08:18.676 --> 0:08:23.716 entire country. You were specifically writing about white folks who 0:08:23.796 --> 0:08:26.476 think that they're going to lose, But as a man 0:08:26.516 --> 0:08:30.396 of color reading it, I also think men of color 0:08:30.516 --> 0:08:35.636 too have bought into this myth of the zero sum, 0:08:35.636 --> 0:08:39.676 and I think that as they've seen women of color 0:08:39.836 --> 0:08:43.996 organizing and advocating in some cases rising, they too have 0:08:44.116 --> 0:08:46.996 felt threatened as if they're losing. Yeah, but back to 0:08:47.036 --> 0:08:49.916 white folks, this is what I've been sort of saying, 0:08:49.956 --> 0:08:53.116 and I want to know whether I'm just wrong that 0:08:53.196 --> 0:08:59.476 white Americans typically compare their lot two people of color, 0:09:00.516 --> 0:09:03.956 and so, in other words, if their school has more 0:09:03.996 --> 0:09:08.436 resources in a way, their child's school is almost like 0:09:08.436 --> 0:09:11.516 a first class school. They're like, whoa, if we create equity, 0:09:11.556 --> 0:09:13.956 then I'm gonna be back in coach. Yeah. I don't 0:09:13.996 --> 0:09:16.596 want that. I'm gonna lose. My kid's gonna lose. But 0:09:16.716 --> 0:09:20.276 it seems to me that white Americans should be assessing 0:09:20.316 --> 0:09:24.716 themselves from other white people in the Western world. Yeah, 0:09:24.756 --> 0:09:28.356 and when they make that comparison, that's when they can 0:09:28.396 --> 0:09:32.316 see actually what they don't have, how they're in coach. 0:09:32.356 --> 0:09:36.636 That's right, And in fact, maybe in other societies in 0:09:36.676 --> 0:09:39.956 the Western world, everybody's just in first class. There's no 0:09:40.036 --> 0:09:43.236 little curtain that the flight attendant moves over. Right, everyone 0:09:43.276 --> 0:09:46.356 gets food, right, everyone has a leg room, you know, 0:09:46.556 --> 0:09:50.196 everybody gets to bring a bag. You know. This really 0:09:50.276 --> 0:09:54.436 comes from and is a feature of how brutally hierarchical 0:09:54.516 --> 0:09:57.116 our society is. In the first chapter of the Some 0:09:57.316 --> 0:09:59.516 of Us, I go back in our history. I am 0:09:59.756 --> 0:10:02.516 I am like somebody else here on this conversation. I'm 0:10:02.596 --> 0:10:04.196 not in the story, but I felt like I had 0:10:04.276 --> 0:10:08.436 to go to the beginning to find out where this 0:10:08.556 --> 0:10:12.276 zero s worldview and this lie came from, whose interest 0:10:12.316 --> 0:10:16.356 it served, and why it sort of reanimated generation after generation. 0:10:16.796 --> 0:10:20.076 And as it turns out, it was created as a 0:10:20.156 --> 0:10:26.676 way to sort of discipline white Europeans in the colonial 0:10:26.756 --> 0:10:32.396 era to be satisfied with their lot in a society 0:10:32.516 --> 0:10:37.396 where wealth was still quite concentrated, and where, because of 0:10:37.476 --> 0:10:40.516 chattel slavery in a plantation economy, there actually wasn't a 0:10:40.516 --> 0:10:44.236 lot of room a white person who was not a 0:10:44.276 --> 0:10:49.276 plantation owner. Their labor wasn't needed in the southern economy, right, Like, 0:10:49.316 --> 0:10:52.196 what do we need you for? Right? This myth of 0:10:52.196 --> 0:10:56.716 white supremacy was sold to white masses so that they 0:10:56.756 --> 0:11:00.356 could have, of course, as WB. Devoy said, the psychological 0:11:00.396 --> 0:11:04.316 wages of whiteness rather than material wages, and those psychological 0:11:04.356 --> 0:11:09.876 wayses were knowing always that in a deeply unequal economy 0:11:10.196 --> 0:11:14.836 they could nonetheless count on being more than and better 0:11:14.876 --> 0:11:22.636 than Black people. Now hang on for the amazing story 0:11:22.676 --> 0:11:29.316 of Darryll Davis from a slight change of plans. So, 0:11:29.476 --> 0:11:32.036 I was riding in my car. I'm driving, and this 0:11:32.196 --> 0:11:36.116 klansman was sitting in my passenger seat, and we got 0:11:36.156 --> 0:11:40.156 on the topic of a crime, and he made the 0:11:40.236 --> 0:11:45.196 mention that black people are born with a gene that 0:11:45.276 --> 0:11:49.596 makes them violent, and I said, look, I'm as black 0:11:49.636 --> 0:11:53.476 as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a 0:11:53.556 --> 0:11:56.716 drive by or a car jacking. How do you explain 0:11:56.796 --> 0:12:01.076 that this man did not hesitate one second? He answered 0:12:01.076 --> 0:12:04.436 me instantly, He said, your gene is latent. It hasn't 0:12:04.476 --> 0:12:09.836 come out yet. That's Darryll Davis, a blues musician. And yeah, 0:12:09.916 --> 0:12:12.556 you heard him right. He's driving in his car with 0:12:12.636 --> 0:12:15.676 a member of the Ku Klux Klan. You know, I 0:12:15.756 --> 0:12:19.076 was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to 0:12:19.076 --> 0:12:21.916 me with all smug and securely. Huh. You see, you 0:12:21.956 --> 0:12:24.556 know you have nothing to say. And I thought about 0:12:24.556 --> 0:12:26.996 it for a moment rather than attack him, you say 0:12:27.156 --> 0:12:30.396 it's not true. It's not true. I said to him, 0:12:30.916 --> 0:12:34.156 I said, you know, white people have a gene within 0:12:34.236 --> 0:12:39.396 them that make them serial killers. And he said, why 0:12:39.436 --> 0:12:42.836 would you say that. I said, well, face it, name 0:12:42.876 --> 0:12:46.476 me three black serial killers. He thought about it. He 0:12:46.516 --> 0:12:49.916 couldn't name anybody. You couldn't do it, I rattled off. 0:12:50.276 --> 0:12:54.676 Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dalmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, 0:12:54.956 --> 0:12:58.956 Ted Bundy, David Burklew, son of Sam, Albert de Salvo 0:12:59.116 --> 0:13:02.196 the Boston Strangler. And I said, son, you are a 0:13:02.236 --> 0:13:06.676 serial killer. And he said, Darrell, I've never killed anybody. 0:13:07.116 --> 0:13:10.636 I said, your genus legend hasn't come out yet. He said, well, 0:13:10.636 --> 0:13:14.556 that's stupid, and I said, well, duh, it is stupid. 0:13:15.436 --> 0:13:19.476 And he got very, very quiet, and I could tell 0:13:19.596 --> 0:13:23.076 that the gears in his head were spinning super fast, 0:13:23.116 --> 0:13:25.676 probably you know, burning a hole in there. And then 0:13:25.716 --> 0:13:28.956 he a moment later he changed the subject. But within 0:13:29.036 --> 0:13:34.476 five months this guy quit the Ku Klux Klan. Since 0:13:34.516 --> 0:13:37.516 that car ride thirty years ago, Daryl Davis has gone 0:13:37.556 --> 0:13:40.036 on to convince dozens of people to leave the Ku 0:13:40.076 --> 0:13:43.916 Klux Klan. Convincing someone else to change their minds their 0:13:43.996 --> 0:13:47.476 view of reality is one of the most elusive, coveted 0:13:47.476 --> 0:13:51.556 types of change, which is why Darryl's story feels so improbable. 0:13:52.236 --> 0:13:55.876 So how does he do it? I'm Maya Shunker. As 0:13:55.916 --> 0:13:59.196 a cognitive scientist, I've always been fascinated by how we 0:13:59.316 --> 0:14:02.436 change our minds and why we change our minds. On 0:14:02.436 --> 0:14:05.876 this show, I'll have intimate conversations with people who've navigated 0:14:05.956 --> 0:14:09.556 extraordinary change, and hopefully their stories will get us to 0:14:09.596 --> 0:14:13.236 think differently about change in our own lives. This is 0:14:13.276 --> 0:14:37.196 a slight change of plans, our constitution, our constru Darrel 0:14:37.236 --> 0:14:40.116 didn't set out to change anyone's mind. He was mostly 0:14:40.156 --> 0:14:43.116 just focused on his music. But one night his life 0:14:43.156 --> 0:14:45.756 took an unexpected turn when he was playing a show 0:14:45.796 --> 0:14:53.436 at a bar called the Silver Dollar Lounge. The Silver 0:14:53.476 --> 0:14:55.796 Dollar Lounge at the time was an all white lounge. 0:14:56.196 --> 0:14:58.756 And I say that not meaning that black people could 0:14:58.836 --> 0:15:01.316 not go in, but meaning that they did not go 0:15:01.396 --> 0:15:04.396 in by their own choice because they were not welcome there. 0:15:04.756 --> 0:15:08.356 And when you go somewhere where you're not welcome and 0:15:08.716 --> 0:15:11.556 alcohol hall is being served, sometimes it does not make 0:15:11.636 --> 0:15:14.156 for a good combination, especially when you're out and numbered. 0:15:14.516 --> 0:15:17.076 So we took a break after the first set, and 0:15:17.156 --> 0:15:19.356 I was walking across the dance floor to go sit 0:15:19.436 --> 0:15:22.676 you with the bandmates when somebody approached me from behind 0:15:23.076 --> 0:15:25.196 and put their arm around my shoulder. No, I don't 0:15:25.196 --> 0:15:27.356 know anybody in this place, so I'm turning around to 0:15:27.356 --> 0:15:30.076 see who's touching me, and it was this gentleman, maybe 0:15:30.116 --> 0:15:33.396 fifteen eighteen years older than me, and he's all excited. 0:15:33.476 --> 0:15:36.556 He says, man, I sure like your piano playing. This 0:15:36.636 --> 0:15:38.396 is the first time I ever heard of black man 0:15:38.476 --> 0:15:42.356 play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis, and I told him. 0:15:42.396 --> 0:15:43.836 I said, well, Jerry Lee got it from the same 0:15:43.836 --> 0:15:48.076 place I did, from black blues and boogie woogie piano players. 0:15:48.196 --> 0:15:50.156 Oh no, no no, no, no, I never heard no black 0:15:50.196 --> 0:15:52.516 man play like that except for you. Jerry Lee invented 0:15:52.596 --> 0:15:55.596 that style. I said, look, I know Jerry Lee Lewis. 0:15:55.596 --> 0:15:57.676 He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself 0:15:57.676 --> 0:15:59.876 where he had learned how to play. The guy didn't 0:15:59.876 --> 0:16:02.436 buy that either, but he was so fascinated with me 0:16:02.916 --> 0:16:04.996 that he wanted me to come back to his table. 0:16:05.036 --> 0:16:07.516 He's want to buy me a drink, so I don't drink, 0:16:07.516 --> 0:16:09.876 but I agreed to have a cranberry juice. He bought it, 0:16:09.916 --> 0:16:12.476 paid the waitress, and then he took his glass and 0:16:12.556 --> 0:16:16.236 he clinked my glass and cheered me, and then he announces, 0:16:16.476 --> 0:16:18.316 you know, this is the first time I ever sat 0:16:18.316 --> 0:16:21.956 down with a black man and had a drink. So innocently, 0:16:21.996 --> 0:16:24.876 I asked him why, and he didn't answer me at first. 0:16:24.916 --> 0:16:27.356 I asked him again, and his buddy sitting next to 0:16:27.436 --> 0:16:29.756 him elbowed him and said tell him, tell him, And 0:16:29.876 --> 0:16:33.196 the guy looked at me and said, I'm a member 0:16:33.236 --> 0:16:37.196 the Ku Klux Klan. Well I burst out laughing at 0:16:37.276 --> 0:16:40.316 him because now I do not believe him. I thought 0:16:40.316 --> 0:16:43.076 he was putting the joke on me. I'm laughing. He 0:16:43.116 --> 0:16:45.996 goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, flips through it, 0:16:46.196 --> 0:16:50.196 and hands me his clan membership card. I recognized the 0:16:50.236 --> 0:16:52.956 clan insignia, which is a red circle with a white 0:16:52.956 --> 0:16:55.236 cross and a red blood drop in the center of 0:16:55.236 --> 0:16:58.556 the cross, and I'm thinking myself, oh my goodness, you 0:16:58.556 --> 0:17:01.476 know this is for real. So I stopped laughing. But 0:17:01.556 --> 0:17:05.996 he was, you know, very friendly and very appreciative of 0:17:06.476 --> 0:17:09.796 my music and all excited. He gave me his phone 0:17:09.876 --> 0:17:13.596 number to you know, to call him whenever I was 0:17:13.636 --> 0:17:16.116 to return to this bar with this band, and so 0:17:16.236 --> 0:17:18.036 I'd called him every six weeks and say, hey, man, 0:17:18.076 --> 0:17:19.956 you know I'm down there at the Silver Dollar this 0:17:19.996 --> 0:17:22.676 week and come on out. You say, it's so nonchalantly 0:17:22.796 --> 0:17:25.876 like so I called the guy. It is remarkable that 0:17:25.916 --> 0:17:28.596 you called this person. And you know, I don't think 0:17:28.596 --> 0:17:31.836 I'm alone in struggling to understand, you know, what was 0:17:31.876 --> 0:17:34.516 going through through your mind at this moment. If someone 0:17:34.596 --> 0:17:37.636 told me that they were in the freaking clan. I 0:17:37.716 --> 0:17:41.876 would certainly not call them back. In fact, I'd probably 0:17:41.916 --> 0:17:43.916 just flee the scene. And I think this is for 0:17:43.916 --> 0:17:47.996 pretty good reasons. Well, you know, I was questioning myself 0:17:48.036 --> 0:17:50.276 for a second, like what the heck am I doing 0:17:50.396 --> 0:17:53.956 sitting here with a klansman. But the guy was friendly. 0:17:54.356 --> 0:17:58.476 He disputed the things that I had in mind of 0:17:58.876 --> 0:18:01.836 the image over typical klansmen, and he wanted to share 0:18:01.916 --> 0:18:05.236 my music with some of his fellow clansmen and clanswomen. 0:18:05.596 --> 0:18:07.196 And they would, you know, get on the dancelore and 0:18:07.276 --> 0:18:09.076 danceloor I'm music. You know they didn't come in rope 0:18:09.156 --> 0:18:11.556 and hoods, right, you know, they came in regular street clothes. 0:18:12.356 --> 0:18:16.516 This goes on for a year, an entire year. Darrell 0:18:16.556 --> 0:18:18.596 would play a gig at this bar, and he would 0:18:18.596 --> 0:18:21.716 invite clan members to watch him play. This is one 0:18:21.756 --> 0:18:25.756 of those things that makes Darrell so unusual. I mean, 0:18:25.796 --> 0:18:28.236 for me, a huge part of what makes someone who 0:18:28.236 --> 0:18:31.516 they are is their belief system. And so if we 0:18:31.596 --> 0:18:34.556 share the same taste in music, that's fine, that's great. 0:18:35.076 --> 0:18:38.116 But if I then find out they're a flagrant racist, 0:18:38.556 --> 0:18:42.556 that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So 0:18:42.596 --> 0:18:45.916 how does Darrell look past that, he says, It's not 0:18:46.036 --> 0:18:49.036 like that. He wasn't looking past it. He wanted to 0:18:49.156 --> 0:18:52.996 learn from it. See, Darrell had spent his early childhood 0:18:52.996 --> 0:18:56.916 overseas in a school he describes as a United Nations 0:18:56.956 --> 0:19:00.636 for little kids. Race was always in the background, But 0:19:00.716 --> 0:19:02.956 when he moved back to the States when he was ten, 0:19:03.316 --> 0:19:06.876 he couldn't escape racism, and ever since then he's been 0:19:06.916 --> 0:19:11.036 interested in why people hate. I had had an experience 0:19:11.076 --> 0:19:13.956 at the age of ten where some racist people threw 0:19:14.036 --> 0:19:16.756 rocks and bottles at me during a parade in which 0:19:16.796 --> 0:19:20.316 I was the only black participant, and never having had 0:19:20.396 --> 0:19:23.596 this happened to me before, I was perplexed as to 0:19:23.636 --> 0:19:26.436 why people were doing this, And when later my parents 0:19:26.476 --> 0:19:29.316 explained that it was racism, my ten year old brain 0:19:29.356 --> 0:19:32.916 could not process the idea that someone who had never 0:19:32.916 --> 0:19:35.436 seen me before, who had never spoken with me, and 0:19:35.516 --> 0:19:38.276 knew nothing about me, would want to inflict pain upon 0:19:38.356 --> 0:19:40.676 me for no other reason than the color of my skin. 0:19:41.196 --> 0:19:44.356 You know, that just did not compete with me. Well later, 0:19:44.396 --> 0:19:46.916 when I realized this was true, there are people like that, 0:19:47.436 --> 0:19:50.236 I formed a question in my mind, which was, how 0:19:50.276 --> 0:19:52.476 can you hate me when you don't even know me, 0:19:52.916 --> 0:19:54.756 And some people would just say, well, Darrel, you know 0:19:54.796 --> 0:19:56.716 that's just the way it is. Well, no, it's not 0:19:56.796 --> 0:19:58.636 just the way it is. There has to be a 0:19:58.676 --> 0:20:02.516 reason behind it. Well it's always been that way. That 0:20:02.596 --> 0:20:04.036 was not good enough for me. I wanted to get 0:20:04.076 --> 0:20:07.756 to the nucleus of it. So Darrell dedicates himself to 0:20:07.796 --> 0:20:11.996 answering this question. He devours books about race and racism. 0:20:12.436 --> 0:20:15.116 He reads nearly every book that exists on the clan, 0:20:15.636 --> 0:20:18.956 but he's still unsatisfied, so he decides he wants to 0:20:18.956 --> 0:20:22.636 write his own book about the clan. All the books 0:20:22.636 --> 0:20:26.356 written on the clan except for mine, have been written 0:20:26.396 --> 0:20:29.756 by white authors. You know, white authors obviously have an 0:20:29.756 --> 0:20:32.596 easier time getting in contact with the clan and sitting 0:20:32.676 --> 0:20:35.956 down and not fearing any ramifications or whatever, or they 0:20:35.996 --> 0:20:39.156 might even join the clan undercover. A clansman would have 0:20:39.196 --> 0:20:42.756 a different perspective sitting there talking to a black person 0:20:42.996 --> 0:20:45.916 than he would a white person. And how do you 0:20:45.956 --> 0:20:48.996 feel that perspective would have been different because he's sitting 0:20:49.076 --> 0:20:52.076 there telling the person that he hates why he hates them. 0:20:52.876 --> 0:20:55.436 So now he's having to face me and face those 0:20:55.476 --> 0:20:58.756 same questions. You know that somebody would ask or even 0:20:58.756 --> 0:21:03.116 different questions that a white interviewer journalist would not ask 0:21:03.596 --> 0:21:05.356 because they don't think of him, because they don't feel 0:21:05.356 --> 0:21:08.596 the things the same things that I feel. As Darrell 0:21:08.636 --> 0:21:11.556 starts read searching for his book, it suddenly dawns on 0:21:11.636 --> 0:21:15.116 him he already knows someone in the clan, that guy 0:21:15.276 --> 0:21:17.956 from the Silver Dollar Lounge. So he goes on a 0:21:17.996 --> 0:21:20.716 mission to track him down. It takes a while, but 0:21:20.796 --> 0:21:24.196 eventually he finds the guy's address. And I knocked on 0:21:24.316 --> 0:21:27.036 the door, you know, unannounced, and he opens the door 0:21:27.036 --> 0:21:29.156 and sees me, goes, Darrel, you know, what are you 0:21:29.196 --> 0:21:31.356 doing here? And look, he looked up and down the 0:21:31.356 --> 0:21:33.956 hallway to see if I brought anybody with me. So 0:21:34.116 --> 0:21:36.036 it was more of him that who was intimidated than me. 0:21:36.596 --> 0:21:40.116 And when he stepped out of his apartment, I stepped in. 0:21:40.716 --> 0:21:43.156 So he turns around, comes back in. So now we're 0:21:43.196 --> 0:21:45.796 standing inside his apartment and he says, you know what's 0:21:45.836 --> 0:21:48.636 going on? Are you still playing? What's going on? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:21:48.636 --> 0:21:51.356 I'm still playing. But listen, I need to talk to 0:21:51.396 --> 0:21:54.636 you about the clan. He says, the clan. I said, yeah. 0:21:54.716 --> 0:21:57.116 He goes well, I quit, Yeah, I quit a while back. 0:21:57.636 --> 0:22:00.196 I said, well, you know, where's all your clan stuff? 0:22:00.676 --> 0:22:03.036 He says, well, they came and got it. And I said, 0:22:03.036 --> 0:22:04.916 what do you mean they came and got your robin hood? 0:22:05.236 --> 0:22:07.556 You know, don't you own it? And he explained to me, 0:22:07.956 --> 0:22:10.316 when you joined the clan, if you have the money 0:22:10.356 --> 0:22:12.716 to pay for it, you can purchase your robin hood 0:22:12.956 --> 0:22:15.876 and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford 0:22:15.916 --> 0:22:17.916 it at the time, you can still take it home 0:22:17.956 --> 0:22:20.236 with you, but you put a little extra money in 0:22:20.556 --> 0:22:23.236 every time you pay your dues until you pay it off, 0:22:23.356 --> 0:22:26.436 sort like layaway kind of thing. The bizarre financial lead 0:22:26.516 --> 0:22:29.876 system within the clan. Love it, yes, exactly, equal opportunity 0:22:29.916 --> 0:22:34.596 for everyone who's racist, that's right, okay, absolutely so. Anyway, 0:22:34.636 --> 0:22:38.236 he said that they came and got it, but when 0:22:38.236 --> 0:22:40.716 they came to get it, he could not find the mask, 0:22:41.356 --> 0:22:44.756 and he has since found it and he needed to 0:22:44.756 --> 0:22:47.036 return it. I said, what can I see it? So 0:22:47.076 --> 0:22:49.636 he goes down the hallway, comes back and hands me 0:22:49.676 --> 0:22:52.196 the mask and I said to him, I said, do 0:22:52.236 --> 0:22:55.396 you know Roger Kelly? He goes, yeah, Roger was my 0:22:55.396 --> 0:22:57.996 grand dragon. I know him. And I said, well, listen, 0:22:57.996 --> 0:22:59.796 I need you to hook me up with mister Kelly. 0:23:00.156 --> 0:23:01.876 I want you to interview him. I'm going to write 0:23:01.876 --> 0:23:04.396 a book on the clan. Now, let me explain how 0:23:04.436 --> 0:23:06.916 the hierarchy of the clan works. You understand these terms 0:23:07.636 --> 0:23:09.956 we would call a state leader of governor. They call 0:23:10.076 --> 0:23:13.436 that the Grand Dragon a mayor. That person is known 0:23:13.476 --> 0:23:17.716 as the exalted Cyclops. Anybody on the great level is Yeah, 0:23:17.756 --> 0:23:22.476 it's very self importance of these names, that's yeah. But 0:23:22.516 --> 0:23:25.796 see that's also what attracts people because you know, they 0:23:25.836 --> 0:23:28.196 get titles, they feel imported. Yes, it's a sense of 0:23:28.196 --> 0:23:31.396 self importance, you know, because they're not getting that from 0:23:31.396 --> 0:23:34.596 the society in which they live. So you know, this brotherhood, 0:23:34.676 --> 0:23:38.196 this gang, if you will, gives him those things. So 0:23:38.236 --> 0:23:40.476 at the time, Roger Kelly was the Grand Dragon state 0:23:40.556 --> 0:23:42.756 leader from Maryland. So I said, I'll tell you what 0:23:43.116 --> 0:23:45.956 you need to return this mask, right He said, yeah. 0:23:46.196 --> 0:23:48.916 I said, give me Roger Kelly's phone member and his 0:23:48.996 --> 0:23:51.716 address and I'll go and return it for you. And 0:23:51.796 --> 0:23:53.876 he snapped that thing right out of my hand and said, 0:23:53.876 --> 0:23:56.996 in no way. And so I begged and plead it 0:23:56.996 --> 0:23:59.236 with him. Well, he finally gave it to me on 0:23:59.276 --> 0:24:01.916 the condition that I not revealed him mister Kelly where 0:24:01.916 --> 0:24:05.036 I got it, and he warned me. He said, Darrel, 0:24:05.116 --> 0:24:07.836 do not go to Roger Kelly's house. Roger Kelly will 0:24:07.956 --> 0:24:10.116 kill you. And I said, well, that's that's the whole 0:24:10.116 --> 0:24:13.356 reason why I need to talk to mister Kelly. I know, 0:24:13.476 --> 0:24:15.996 why would he kill me? What is going on in 0:24:16.316 --> 0:24:19.596 his mind when he sees me. I have to understand this. 0:24:20.196 --> 0:24:22.916 You did realize that you might not get the answer 0:24:22.956 --> 0:24:28.276 to the question if, in fact the dangerous part happened first. Right, true, 0:24:28.356 --> 0:24:31.076 this is true, But but I was thinking, you know 0:24:31.236 --> 0:24:35.116 that I would I would prevail. I'm the eternal optimist 0:24:35.196 --> 0:24:38.316 if you will, Well, I am not the eternal optimist. 0:24:38.636 --> 0:24:43.636 And Darryll's decision feels incredibly risky. But anyway, he has 0:24:43.636 --> 0:24:47.156