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Speaker 1: Pushkin high listeners at Jacob Weisberg Here, I'm the CEO

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Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. At Pushkin, we think of Juneteenth as

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Speaker 1: an opportunity to reflect on the past and think about

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Speaker 1: the future. How do we build a more just and

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Speaker 1: equitable society. We strive to make podcasts that help to

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Speaker 1: answer that question, and in honor of Juneteenth, we're highlighting

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Speaker 1: two of them. Be Anti Racist is hosted by doctor

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Speaker 1: Ibram X Kendy, an author, professor, activist, and historian. His

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Speaker 1: book How to Be an Anti Racist has become a

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Speaker 1: guide for anyone interested in dismantling the structures that racism creates.

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Speaker 1: The podcast gives him a chance to dive deep into

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Speaker 1: issues like immigration, to sports, and voting rights with guests

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Speaker 1: like Julian Castro and Jamel Hill. Who're going to You're

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Speaker 1: An excerpt from a conversation doctor Kendy had recently with

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Speaker 1: author and political analyst Heather cmghee. They focus on the

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Speaker 1: economic costs of racism for everyone, not just those in

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Speaker 1: black or brown communities, and how diversity can lead to

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Speaker 1: economic prosperity for all. Then you'll hear a truly remarkable

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Speaker 1: story of bridging racial divides. Darrell Davis is a black

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Speaker 1: jazz musician who has convinced hundreds of KKK members to

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Speaker 1: leave the clan. It all started with one conversation in

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Speaker 1: a jazz club because Darrell was interested in understanding people

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Speaker 1: with wildly different views. Darrell appeared on A Slight Change

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Speaker 1: of Plans, a podcast hosted by doctor Maya Shankar. Shankar

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Speaker 1: is a cognitive scientist who's fascinated by what happens when

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Speaker 1: we find ourselves at the brink of change, and she's

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Speaker 1: got a knack for getting people, including Hillary Clinton and

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Speaker 1: Tiffany Hattisch to open up to her. Here's Doctor Kendy

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Speaker 1: on Be Anti Racist Welcome to Be Anti Racist in

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Speaker 1: Action podcasts where we discuss how to diagnose, dismantle, and

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Speaker 1: abolish racism, how to save humanity from the divisiveness of

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Speaker 1: racist ideas and the destructiveness of racist power and policy,

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Speaker 1: How to free humanity through the unity of anti racist

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Speaker 1: ideas and the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy.

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Speaker 1: On b Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the

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Speaker 1: impossible possible and how to bring into being what modern

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Speaker 1: humans have never known, a just and equitable world. You ready,

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Speaker 1: Let's roll in the night thirties and forties, the United

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Speaker 1: States went on a nationwide building boom of public amenities

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Speaker 1: funded by tax dollars, which in Montgomery, Alabama, included the

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Speaker 1: Oak Park Pool, which was the grandest one for miles,

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Speaker 1: except the Oak Park Pool was for whites only. When

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Speaker 1: a federal court finally deemed this unconstitutional, the reaction of

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Speaker 1: the town council was swift. They decided they would drain

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Speaker 1: the public pool rather than let black families swim to

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Speaker 1: They never rebuilt the pool. Racism has a cost for everyone.

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Speaker 1: HEATHERN McGee is an expert in economic and social policy

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Speaker 1: and the author of the best selling book To Some

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Speaker 1: of Us, What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can

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Speaker 1: Prosper Together. Heather explodes one of the greatest racial myths,

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Speaker 1: that white people lose as people of color gain. She

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Speaker 1: shows that as racism wins, we all lose. Heather is

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Speaker 1: one of America's sharpest thinkers. The former president of the

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Speaker 1: inequality focused think Take Demos and its drafted legislation, testified

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Speaker 1: before Congress, and contributed regularly to new shows, including NBC's

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Speaker 1: Meet the Press. She now chairs the board of Color

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Speaker 1: of Change, the nation's largest online racial Justice organization. I

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Speaker 1: sat down with Heather McGee recently to learn how by

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Speaker 1: investing in each other we can all achieve better jobs,

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Speaker 1: better health, better democracy, better schools, better neighborhoods for our kids,

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Speaker 1: and so much more. Heather is always is truly an

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Speaker 1: honor to speak with you. Your book, The Some of

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Speaker 1: Us is the type of book that I learned from

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Speaker 1: that I think many Americans and many people around the

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Speaker 1: world can learn from. I wrote this book because I

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Speaker 1: felt like we were missing something in the great pursuit

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Speaker 1: of a society. It should be to have progress, to

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Speaker 1: have people have less want and more joy, people to

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Speaker 1: have more of the fruits of economic progress and technological progress,

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Speaker 1: and for our problems to be solved generation after generation, right,

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Speaker 1: And it felt like that progress was slowing down, slash reversing.

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Speaker 1: When some Americans imagine the transformation of this country, they

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Speaker 1: imagine that they're going to lose if we actually create

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Speaker 1: inequitable and just anti racist America. And it seems, as

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Speaker 1: you've written, that that's based on a zero sum myth.

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Speaker 1: So I left a career in economic policy to go

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Speaker 1: out on the quixotic journey in some ways to find

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Speaker 1: the answer to the question of why can't we seem

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Speaker 1: to have nice things? And what are the roots of

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Speaker 1: our dysfunction? And it's there that I came upon this

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Speaker 1: paradigm of the zero sum. It's a term that means

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Speaker 1: there's no such thing as mutual progress when you have

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Speaker 1: people who are in a competition with one another. If

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Speaker 1: Team A scores one more point, team B scores one

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Speaker 1: less point, the points will always add up to zero,

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Speaker 1: positive on one side, negative on the other. Progress for

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Speaker 1: team A has to come at the expense of team B.

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Speaker 1: There's a limited or fixed pie. And that idea resonated

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Speaker 1: so deeply with me. It sort of gave a name

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Speaker 1: and a description to something I had sensed my whole life,

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Speaker 1: this fear that when white supremacy falls, that the world

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Speaker 1: will become one that white people should fear. Therefore, racism

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Speaker 1: is really great for white people, really terrible for people

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Speaker 1: of color, and so their self interest is in preserving

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Speaker 1: racism at all costs. And it's the at all costs

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Speaker 1: piece that really felt so important for me to lay out,

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Speaker 1: what are the costs of racism to our entire society,

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Speaker 1: What exactly is the price white people are willing to

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Speaker 1: pay to keep the system as it has been. And

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Speaker 1: once I started looking, the list just kept growing, and

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Speaker 1: that made it clear to me that we have these

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Speaker 1: self interested elites packaging marketing, selling this zero sum lie

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Speaker 1: to most white Americans, and they're doing it for their

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Speaker 1: own profit. But our side, when we only talk about

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Speaker 1: racism as something that's good for white people, are kind

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Speaker 1: of like helping out a little bit, right provocation. The

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Speaker 1: agitation that made me feel like, Okay, maybe I do

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Speaker 1: have something to add to this conversation was we haven't

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Speaker 1: told the full story of what it has cost this

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Speaker 1: entire country. You were specifically writing about white folks who

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Speaker 1: think that they're going to lose, But as a man

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Speaker 1: of color reading it, I also think men of color

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Speaker 1: too have bought into this myth of the zero sum,

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Speaker 1: and I think that as they've seen women of color

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Speaker 1: organizing and advocating in some cases rising, they too have

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Speaker 1: felt threatened as if they're losing. Yeah, but back to

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Speaker 1: white folks, this is what I've been sort of saying,

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Speaker 1: and I want to know whether I'm just wrong that

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Speaker 1: white Americans typically compare their lot two people of color,

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Speaker 1: and so, in other words, if their school has more

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Speaker 1: resources in a way, their child's school is almost like

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Speaker 1: a first class school. They're like, whoa, if we create equity,

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Speaker 1: then I'm gonna be back in coach. Yeah. I don't

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Speaker 1: want that. I'm gonna lose. My kid's gonna lose. But

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Speaker 1: it seems to me that white Americans should be assessing

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Speaker 1: themselves from other white people in the Western world. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and when they make that comparison, that's when they can

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Speaker 1: see actually what they don't have, how they're in coach.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And in fact, maybe in other societies in

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Speaker 1: the Western world, everybody's just in first class. There's no

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Speaker 1: little curtain that the flight attendant moves over. Right, everyone

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Speaker 1: gets food, right, everyone has a leg room, you know,

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Speaker 1: everybody gets to bring a bag. You know. This really

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Speaker 1: comes from and is a feature of how brutally hierarchical

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Speaker 1: our society is. In the first chapter of the Some

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Speaker 1: of Us, I go back in our history. I am

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Speaker 1: I am like somebody else here on this conversation. I'm

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Speaker 1: not in the story, but I felt like I had

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Speaker 1: to go to the beginning to find out where this

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Speaker 1: zero s worldview and this lie came from, whose interest

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Speaker 1: it served, and why it sort of reanimated generation after generation.

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Speaker 1: And as it turns out, it was created as a

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Speaker 1: way to sort of discipline white Europeans in the colonial

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Speaker 1: era to be satisfied with their lot in a society

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Speaker 1: where wealth was still quite concentrated, and where, because of

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Speaker 1: chattel slavery in a plantation economy, there actually wasn't a

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Speaker 1: lot of room a white person who was not a

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Speaker 1: plantation owner. Their labor wasn't needed in the southern economy, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: what do we need you for? Right? This myth of

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Speaker 1: white supremacy was sold to white masses so that they

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Speaker 1: could have, of course, as WB. Devoy said, the psychological

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Speaker 1: wages of whiteness rather than material wages, and those psychological

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Speaker 1: wayses were knowing always that in a deeply unequal economy

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Speaker 1: they could nonetheless count on being more than and better

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Speaker 1: than Black people. Now hang on for the amazing story

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Speaker 1: of Darryll Davis from a slight change of plans. So,

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Speaker 1: I was riding in my car. I'm driving, and this

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Speaker 1: klansman was sitting in my passenger seat, and we got

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Speaker 1: on the topic of a crime, and he made the

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Speaker 1: mention that black people are born with a gene that

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Speaker 1: makes them violent, and I said, look, I'm as black

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Speaker 1: as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a

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Speaker 1: drive by or a car jacking. How do you explain

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Speaker 1: that this man did not hesitate one second? He answered

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Speaker 1: me instantly, He said, your gene is latent. It hasn't

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Speaker 1: come out yet. That's Darryll Davis, a blues musician. And yeah,

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Speaker 1: you heard him right. He's driving in his car with

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Speaker 1: a member of the Ku Klux Klan. You know, I

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Speaker 1: was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to

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Speaker 1: me with all smug and securely. Huh. You see, you

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Speaker 1: know you have nothing to say. And I thought about

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Speaker 1: it for a moment rather than attack him, you say

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Speaker 1: it's not true. It's not true. I said to him,

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Speaker 1: I said, you know, white people have a gene within

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Speaker 1: them that make them serial killers. And he said, why

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Speaker 1: would you say that. I said, well, face it, name

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Speaker 1: me three black serial killers. He thought about it. He

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Speaker 1: couldn't name anybody. You couldn't do it, I rattled off.

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Speaker 1: Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dalmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy,

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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, David Burklew, son of Sam, Albert de Salvo

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Speaker 1: the Boston Strangler. And I said, son, you are a

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Speaker 1: serial killer. And he said, Darrell, I've never killed anybody.

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Speaker 1: I said, your genus legend hasn't come out yet. He said, well,

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Speaker 1: that's stupid, and I said, well, duh, it is stupid.

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Speaker 1: And he got very, very quiet, and I could tell

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Speaker 1: that the gears in his head were spinning super fast,

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Speaker 1: probably you know, burning a hole in there. And then

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Speaker 1: he a moment later he changed the subject. But within

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Speaker 1: five months this guy quit the Ku Klux Klan. Since

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Speaker 1: that car ride thirty years ago, Daryl Davis has gone

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Speaker 1: on to convince dozens of people to leave the Ku

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Speaker 1: Klux Klan. Convincing someone else to change their minds their

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Speaker 1: view of reality is one of the most elusive, coveted

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Speaker 1: types of change, which is why Darryl's story feels so improbable.

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Speaker 1: So how does he do it? I'm Maya Shunker. As

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Speaker 1: a cognitive scientist, I've always been fascinated by how we

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Speaker 1: change our minds and why we change our minds. On

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Speaker 1: this show, I'll have intimate conversations with people who've navigated

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Speaker 1: extraordinary change, and hopefully their stories will get us to

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Speaker 1: think differently about change in our own lives. This is

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Speaker 1: a slight change of plans, our constitution, our constru Darrel

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Speaker 1: didn't set out to change anyone's mind. He was mostly

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Speaker 1: just focused on his music. But one night his life

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Speaker 1: took an unexpected turn when he was playing a show

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Speaker 1: at a bar called the Silver Dollar Lounge. The Silver

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Speaker 1: Dollar Lounge at the time was an all white lounge.

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Speaker 1: And I say that not meaning that black people could

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Speaker 1: not go in, but meaning that they did not go

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Speaker 1: in by their own choice because they were not welcome there.

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Speaker 1: And when you go somewhere where you're not welcome and

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Speaker 1: alcohol hall is being served, sometimes it does not make

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Speaker 1: for a good combination, especially when you're out and numbered.

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Speaker 1: So we took a break after the first set, and

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Speaker 1: I was walking across the dance floor to go sit

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Speaker 1: you with the bandmates when somebody approached me from behind

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Speaker 1: and put their arm around my shoulder. No, I don't

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00:15:25,196 --> 00:15:27,356
Speaker 1: know anybody in this place, so I'm turning around to

218
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Speaker 1: see who's touching me, and it was this gentleman, maybe

219
00:15:30,116 --> 00:15:33,396
Speaker 1: fifteen eighteen years older than me, and he's all excited.

220
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Speaker 1: He says, man, I sure like your piano playing. This

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Speaker 1: is the first time I ever heard of black man

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Speaker 1: play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis, and I told him.

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Speaker 1: I said, well, Jerry Lee got it from the same

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Speaker 1: place I did, from black blues and boogie woogie piano players.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, no no, no, no, I never heard no black

226
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Speaker 1: man play like that except for you. Jerry Lee invented

227
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Speaker 1: that style. I said, look, I know Jerry Lee Lewis.

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Speaker 1: He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself

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Speaker 1: where he had learned how to play. The guy didn't

230
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Speaker 1: buy that either, but he was so fascinated with me

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Speaker 1: that he wanted me to come back to his table.

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Speaker 1: He's want to buy me a drink, so I don't drink,

233
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Speaker 1: but I agreed to have a cranberry juice. He bought it,

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00:16:09,916 --> 00:16:12,476
Speaker 1: paid the waitress, and then he took his glass and

235
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Speaker 1: he clinked my glass and cheered me, and then he announces,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is the first time I ever sat

237
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Speaker 1: down with a black man and had a drink. So innocently,

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Speaker 1: I asked him why, and he didn't answer me at first.

239
00:16:24,916 --> 00:16:27,356
Speaker 1: I asked him again, and his buddy sitting next to

240
00:16:27,436 --> 00:16:29,756
Speaker 1: him elbowed him and said tell him, tell him, And

241
00:16:29,876 --> 00:16:33,196
Speaker 1: the guy looked at me and said, I'm a member

242
00:16:33,236 --> 00:16:37,196
Speaker 1: the Ku Klux Klan. Well I burst out laughing at

243
00:16:37,276 --> 00:16:40,316
Speaker 1: him because now I do not believe him. I thought

244
00:16:40,316 --> 00:16:43,076
Speaker 1: he was putting the joke on me. I'm laughing. He

245
00:16:43,116 --> 00:16:45,996
Speaker 1: goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, flips through it,

246
00:16:46,196 --> 00:16:50,196
Speaker 1: and hands me his clan membership card. I recognized the

247
00:16:50,236 --> 00:16:52,956
Speaker 1: clan insignia, which is a red circle with a white

248
00:16:52,956 --> 00:16:55,236
Speaker 1: cross and a red blood drop in the center of

249
00:16:55,236 --> 00:16:58,556
Speaker 1: the cross, and I'm thinking myself, oh my goodness, you

250
00:16:58,556 --> 00:17:01,476
Speaker 1: know this is for real. So I stopped laughing. But

251
00:17:01,556 --> 00:17:05,996
Speaker 1: he was, you know, very friendly and very appreciative of

252
00:17:06,476 --> 00:17:09,796
Speaker 1: my music and all excited. He gave me his phone

253
00:17:09,876 --> 00:17:13,596
Speaker 1: number to you know, to call him whenever I was

254
00:17:13,636 --> 00:17:16,116
Speaker 1: to return to this bar with this band, and so

255
00:17:16,236 --> 00:17:18,036
Speaker 1: I'd called him every six weeks and say, hey, man,

256
00:17:18,076 --> 00:17:19,956
Speaker 1: you know I'm down there at the Silver Dollar this

257
00:17:19,996 --> 00:17:22,676
Speaker 1: week and come on out. You say, it's so nonchalantly

258
00:17:22,796 --> 00:17:25,876
Speaker 1: like so I called the guy. It is remarkable that

259
00:17:25,916 --> 00:17:28,596
Speaker 1: you called this person. And you know, I don't think

260
00:17:28,596 --> 00:17:31,836
Speaker 1: I'm alone in struggling to understand, you know, what was

261
00:17:31,876 --> 00:17:34,516
Speaker 1: going through through your mind at this moment. If someone

262
00:17:34,596 --> 00:17:37,636
Speaker 1: told me that they were in the freaking clan. I

263
00:17:37,716 --> 00:17:41,876
Speaker 1: would certainly not call them back. In fact, I'd probably

264
00:17:41,916 --> 00:17:43,916
Speaker 1: just flee the scene. And I think this is for

265
00:17:43,916 --> 00:17:47,996
Speaker 1: pretty good reasons. Well, you know, I was questioning myself

266
00:17:48,036 --> 00:17:50,276
Speaker 1: for a second, like what the heck am I doing

267
00:17:50,396 --> 00:17:53,956
Speaker 1: sitting here with a klansman. But the guy was friendly.

268
00:17:54,356 --> 00:17:58,476
Speaker 1: He disputed the things that I had in mind of

269
00:17:58,876 --> 00:18:01,836
Speaker 1: the image over typical klansmen, and he wanted to share

270
00:18:01,916 --> 00:18:05,236
Speaker 1: my music with some of his fellow clansmen and clanswomen.

271
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Speaker 1: And they would, you know, get on the dancelore and

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00:18:07,276 --> 00:18:09,076
Speaker 1: danceloor I'm music. You know they didn't come in rope

273
00:18:09,156 --> 00:18:11,556
Speaker 1: and hoods, right, you know, they came in regular street clothes.

274
00:18:12,356 --> 00:18:16,516
Speaker 1: This goes on for a year, an entire year. Darrell

275
00:18:16,556 --> 00:18:18,596
Speaker 1: would play a gig at this bar, and he would

276
00:18:18,596 --> 00:18:21,716
Speaker 1: invite clan members to watch him play. This is one

277
00:18:21,756 --> 00:18:25,756
Speaker 1: of those things that makes Darrell so unusual. I mean,

278
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Speaker 1: for me, a huge part of what makes someone who

279
00:18:28,236 --> 00:18:31,516
Speaker 1: they are is their belief system. And so if we

280
00:18:31,596 --> 00:18:34,556
Speaker 1: share the same taste in music, that's fine, that's great.

281
00:18:35,076 --> 00:18:38,116
Speaker 1: But if I then find out they're a flagrant racist,

282
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Speaker 1: that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So

283
00:18:42,596 --> 00:18:45,916
Speaker 1: how does Darrell look past that, he says, It's not

284
00:18:46,036 --> 00:18:49,036
Speaker 1: like that. He wasn't looking past it. He wanted to

285
00:18:49,156 --> 00:18:52,996
Speaker 1: learn from it. See, Darrell had spent his early childhood

286
00:18:52,996 --> 00:18:56,916
Speaker 1: overseas in a school he describes as a United Nations

287
00:18:56,956 --> 00:19:00,636
Speaker 1: for little kids. Race was always in the background, But

288
00:19:00,716 --> 00:19:02,956
Speaker 1: when he moved back to the States when he was ten,

289
00:19:03,316 --> 00:19:06,876
Speaker 1: he couldn't escape racism, and ever since then he's been

290
00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:11,036
Speaker 1: interested in why people hate. I had had an experience

291
00:19:11,076 --> 00:19:13,956
Speaker 1: at the age of ten where some racist people threw

292
00:19:14,036 --> 00:19:16,756
Speaker 1: rocks and bottles at me during a parade in which

293
00:19:16,796 --> 00:19:20,316
Speaker 1: I was the only black participant, and never having had

294
00:19:20,396 --> 00:19:23,596
Speaker 1: this happened to me before, I was perplexed as to

295
00:19:23,636 --> 00:19:26,436
Speaker 1: why people were doing this, And when later my parents

296
00:19:26,476 --> 00:19:29,316
Speaker 1: explained that it was racism, my ten year old brain

297
00:19:29,356 --> 00:19:32,916
Speaker 1: could not process the idea that someone who had never

298
00:19:32,916 --> 00:19:35,436
Speaker 1: seen me before, who had never spoken with me, and

299
00:19:35,516 --> 00:19:38,276
Speaker 1: knew nothing about me, would want to inflict pain upon

300
00:19:38,356 --> 00:19:40,676
Speaker 1: me for no other reason than the color of my skin.

301
00:19:41,196 --> 00:19:44,356
Speaker 1: You know, that just did not compete with me. Well later,

302
00:19:44,396 --> 00:19:46,916
Speaker 1: when I realized this was true, there are people like that,

303
00:19:47,436 --> 00:19:50,236
Speaker 1: I formed a question in my mind, which was, how

304
00:19:50,276 --> 00:19:52,476
Speaker 1: can you hate me when you don't even know me,

305
00:19:52,916 --> 00:19:54,756
Speaker 1: And some people would just say, well, Darrel, you know

306
00:19:54,796 --> 00:19:56,716
Speaker 1: that's just the way it is. Well, no, it's not

307
00:19:56,796 --> 00:19:58,636
Speaker 1: just the way it is. There has to be a

308
00:19:58,676 --> 00:20:02,516
Speaker 1: reason behind it. Well it's always been that way. That

309
00:20:02,596 --> 00:20:04,036
Speaker 1: was not good enough for me. I wanted to get

310
00:20:04,076 --> 00:20:07,756
Speaker 1: to the nucleus of it. So Darrell dedicates himself to

311
00:20:07,796 --> 00:20:11,996
Speaker 1: answering this question. He devours books about race and racism.

312
00:20:12,436 --> 00:20:15,116
Speaker 1: He reads nearly every book that exists on the clan,

313
00:20:15,636 --> 00:20:18,956
Speaker 1: but he's still unsatisfied, so he decides he wants to

314
00:20:18,956 --> 00:20:22,636
Speaker 1: write his own book about the clan. All the books

315
00:20:22,636 --> 00:20:26,356
Speaker 1: written on the clan except for mine, have been written

316
00:20:26,396 --> 00:20:29,756
Speaker 1: by white authors. You know, white authors obviously have an

317
00:20:29,756 --> 00:20:32,596
Speaker 1: easier time getting in contact with the clan and sitting

318
00:20:32,676 --> 00:20:35,956
Speaker 1: down and not fearing any ramifications or whatever, or they

319
00:20:35,996 --> 00:20:39,156
Speaker 1: might even join the clan undercover. A clansman would have

320
00:20:39,196 --> 00:20:42,756
Speaker 1: a different perspective sitting there talking to a black person

321
00:20:42,996 --> 00:20:45,916
Speaker 1: than he would a white person. And how do you

322
00:20:45,956 --> 00:20:48,996
Speaker 1: feel that perspective would have been different because he's sitting

323
00:20:49,076 --> 00:20:52,076
Speaker 1: there telling the person that he hates why he hates them.

324
00:20:52,876 --> 00:20:55,436
Speaker 1: So now he's having to face me and face those

325
00:20:55,476 --> 00:20:58,756
Speaker 1: same questions. You know that somebody would ask or even

326
00:20:58,756 --> 00:21:03,116
Speaker 1: different questions that a white interviewer journalist would not ask

327
00:21:03,596 --> 00:21:05,356
Speaker 1: because they don't think of him, because they don't feel

328
00:21:05,356 --> 00:21:08,596
Speaker 1: the things the same things that I feel. As Darrell

329
00:21:08,636 --> 00:21:11,556
Speaker 1: starts read searching for his book, it suddenly dawns on

330
00:21:11,636 --> 00:21:15,116
Speaker 1: him he already knows someone in the clan, that guy

331
00:21:15,276 --> 00:21:17,956
Speaker 1: from the Silver Dollar Lounge. So he goes on a

332
00:21:17,996 --> 00:21:20,716
Speaker 1: mission to track him down. It takes a while, but

333
00:21:20,796 --> 00:21:24,196
Speaker 1: eventually he finds the guy's address. And I knocked on

334
00:21:24,316 --> 00:21:27,036
Speaker 1: the door, you know, unannounced, and he opens the door

335
00:21:27,036 --> 00:21:29,156
Speaker 1: and sees me, goes, Darrel, you know, what are you

336
00:21:29,196 --> 00:21:31,356
Speaker 1: doing here? And look, he looked up and down the

337
00:21:31,356 --> 00:21:33,956
Speaker 1: hallway to see if I brought anybody with me. So

338
00:21:34,116 --> 00:21:36,036
Speaker 1: it was more of him that who was intimidated than me.

339
00:21:36,596 --> 00:21:40,116
Speaker 1: And when he stepped out of his apartment, I stepped in.

340
00:21:40,716 --> 00:21:43,156
Speaker 1: So he turns around, comes back in. So now we're

341
00:21:43,196 --> 00:21:45,796
Speaker 1: standing inside his apartment and he says, you know what's

342
00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:48,636
Speaker 1: going on? Are you still playing? What's going on? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah,

343
00:21:48,636 --> 00:21:51,356
Speaker 1: I'm still playing. But listen, I need to talk to

344
00:21:51,396 --> 00:21:54,636
Speaker 1: you about the clan. He says, the clan. I said, yeah.

345
00:21:54,716 --> 00:21:57,116
Speaker 1: He goes well, I quit, Yeah, I quit a while back.

346
00:21:57,636 --> 00:22:00,196
Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, where's all your clan stuff?

347
00:22:00,676 --> 00:22:03,036
Speaker 1: He says, well, they came and got it. And I said,

348
00:22:03,036 --> 00:22:04,916
Speaker 1: what do you mean they came and got your robin hood?

349
00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:07,556
Speaker 1: You know, don't you own it? And he explained to me,

350
00:22:07,956 --> 00:22:10,316
Speaker 1: when you joined the clan, if you have the money

351
00:22:10,356 --> 00:22:12,716
Speaker 1: to pay for it, you can purchase your robin hood

352
00:22:12,956 --> 00:22:15,876
Speaker 1: and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford

353
00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:17,916
Speaker 1: it at the time, you can still take it home

354
00:22:17,956 --> 00:22:20,236
Speaker 1: with you, but you put a little extra money in

355
00:22:20,556 --> 00:22:23,236
Speaker 1: every time you pay your dues until you pay it off,

356
00:22:23,356 --> 00:22:26,436
Speaker 1: sort like layaway kind of thing. The bizarre financial lead

357
00:22:26,516 --> 00:22:29,876
Speaker 1: system within the clan. Love it, yes, exactly, equal opportunity

358
00:22:29,916 --> 00:22:34,596
Speaker 1: for everyone who's racist, that's right, okay, absolutely so. Anyway,

359
00:22:34,636 --> 00:22:38,236
Speaker 1: he said that they came and got it, but when

360
00:22:38,236 --> 00:22:40,716
Speaker 1: they came to get it, he could not find the mask,

361
00:22:41,356 --> 00:22:44,756
Speaker 1: and he has since found it and he needed to

362
00:22:44,756 --> 00:22:47,036
Speaker 1: return it. I said, what can I see it? So

363
00:22:47,076 --> 00:22:49,636
Speaker 1: he goes down the hallway, comes back and hands me

364
00:22:49,676 --> 00:22:52,196
Speaker 1: the mask and I said to him, I said, do

365
00:22:52,236 --> 00:22:55,396
Speaker 1: you know Roger Kelly? He goes, yeah, Roger was my

366
00:22:55,396 --> 00:22:57,996
Speaker 1: grand dragon. I know him. And I said, well, listen,

367
00:22:57,996 --> 00:22:59,796
Speaker 1: I need you to hook me up with mister Kelly.

368
00:23:00,156 --> 00:23:01,876
Speaker 1: I want you to interview him. I'm going to write

369
00:23:01,876 --> 00:23:04,396
Speaker 1: a book on the clan. Now, let me explain how

370
00:23:04,436 --> 00:23:06,916
Speaker 1: the hierarchy of the clan works. You understand these terms

371
00:23:07,636 --> 00:23:09,956
Speaker 1: we would call a state leader of governor. They call

372
00:23:10,076 --> 00:23:13,436
Speaker 1: that the Grand Dragon a mayor. That person is known

373
00:23:13,476 --> 00:23:17,716
Speaker 1: as the exalted Cyclops. Anybody on the great level is Yeah,

374
00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:22,476
Speaker 1: it's very self importance of these names, that's yeah. But

375
00:23:22,516 --> 00:23:25,796
Speaker 1: see that's also what attracts people because you know, they

376
00:23:25,836 --> 00:23:28,196
Speaker 1: get titles, they feel imported. Yes, it's a sense of

377
00:23:28,196 --> 00:23:31,396
Speaker 1: self importance, you know, because they're not getting that from

378
00:23:31,396 --> 00:23:34,596
Speaker 1: the society in which they live. So you know, this brotherhood,

379
00:23:34,676 --> 00:23:38,196
Speaker 1: this gang, if you will, gives him those things. So

380
00:23:38,236 --> 00:23:40,476
Speaker 1: at the time, Roger Kelly was the Grand Dragon state

381
00:23:40,556 --> 00:23:42,756
Speaker 1: leader from Maryland. So I said, I'll tell you what

382
00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:45,956
Speaker 1: you need to return this mask, right He said, yeah.

383
00:23:46,196 --> 00:23:48,916
Speaker 1: I said, give me Roger Kelly's phone member and his

384
00:23:48,996 --> 00:23:51,716
Speaker 1: address and I'll go and return it for you. And

385
00:23:51,796 --> 00:23:53,876
Speaker 1: he snapped that thing right out of my hand and said,

386
00:23:53,876 --> 00:23:56,996
Speaker 1: in no way. And so I begged and plead it

387
00:23:56,996 --> 00:23:59,236
Speaker 1: with him. Well, he finally gave it to me on

388
00:23:59,276 --> 00:24:01,916
Speaker 1: the condition that I not revealed him mister Kelly where

389
00:24:01,916 --> 00:24:05,036
Speaker 1: I got it, and he warned me. He said, Darrel,

390
00:24:05,116 --> 00:24:07,836
Speaker 1: do not go to Roger Kelly's house. Roger Kelly will

391
00:24:07,956 --> 00:24:10,116
Speaker 1: kill you. And I said, well, that's that's the whole

392
00:24:10,116 --> 00:24:13,356
Speaker 1: reason why I need to talk to mister Kelly. I know,

393
00:24:13,476 --> 00:24:15,996
Speaker 1: why would he kill me? What is going on in

394
00:24:16,316 --> 00:24:19,596
Speaker 1: his mind when he sees me. I have to understand this.

395
00:24:20,196 --> 00:24:22,916
Speaker 1: You did realize that you might not get the answer

396
00:24:22,956 --> 00:24:28,276
Speaker 1: to the question if, in fact the dangerous part happened first. Right, true,

397
00:24:28,356 --> 00:24:31,076
Speaker 1: this is true, But but I was thinking, you know

398
00:24:31,236 --> 00:24:35,116
Speaker 1: that I would I would prevail. I'm the eternal optimist

399
00:24:35,196 --> 00:24:38,316
Speaker 1: if you will, Well, I am not the eternal optimist.

400
00:24:38,636 --> 00:24:43,636
Speaker 1: And Darryll's decision feels incredibly risky. But anyway, he has

401
00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:47,156
Speaker 1: a secretary Mary call and schedule the interview, and he

402
00:24:47,196 --> 00:24:51,116
Speaker 1: gives her one important instruction, do not tell him that

403
00:24:51,196 --> 00:24:54,516
Speaker 1: I'm black, and see if you would consent to sitting

404
00:24:54,596 --> 00:24:57,956
Speaker 1: down and giving her boss an interview. I figured, you know,

405
00:24:58,036 --> 00:25:00,476
Speaker 1: he might pick up in my voice that I'm black,

406
00:25:00,836 --> 00:25:03,196
Speaker 1: and I didn't want him to hang up the phone,

407
00:25:03,236 --> 00:25:05,436
Speaker 1: say am I talking to you, and my whole project

408
00:25:05,476 --> 00:25:08,636
Speaker 1: would have ended before they ever got started. Roger Kelly

409
00:25:08,676 --> 00:25:11,156
Speaker 1: agrees to meet for an interview one evening at a

410
00:25:11,196 --> 00:25:14,996
Speaker 1: nearby motel. Darrel gets to the motel early with Mary.

411
00:25:15,756 --> 00:25:18,276
Speaker 1: He's not sure if Roger will even agree to step

412
00:25:18,276 --> 00:25:21,236
Speaker 1: foot in the room, but if he does, Darrel wants

413
00:25:21,236 --> 00:25:23,916
Speaker 1: to be hospitable. He asked Mary to fill up the

414
00:25:23,956 --> 00:25:26,876
Speaker 1: ice bucket and buy some sodas and then they start

415
00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:29,956
Speaker 1: arranging the room. There's not much to arrange. There's the

416
00:25:30,036 --> 00:25:34,076
Speaker 1: ice bucket, a table, two chairs, and Darrell's canvas bag

417
00:25:34,116 --> 00:25:37,036
Speaker 1: which has his tape recorder and a Bible. The clan

418
00:25:37,436 --> 00:25:40,276
Speaker 1: claims to be a Christian organization and they claim that

419
00:25:40,316 --> 00:25:44,516
Speaker 1: the Bible preaches are racial separation. Now, in my reading

420
00:25:44,516 --> 00:25:46,676
Speaker 1: of the Bible, I have never seen anything like that

421
00:25:46,756 --> 00:25:48,516
Speaker 1: in there. So I want to be able to pull

422
00:25:48,596 --> 00:25:50,676
Speaker 1: up my Bible and hand it to him and say, here,

423
00:25:50,716 --> 00:25:54,956
Speaker 1: mister Kelly, please show me chapter and verse where it

424
00:25:55,076 --> 00:25:58,556
Speaker 1: says blacksom whites must be separate. So I'm all prepared,

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00:25:58,636 --> 00:26:02,196
Speaker 1: right right on time, right to the minute. Five fifteen knock, knock,

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00:26:02,276 --> 00:26:05,436
Speaker 1: knock on the door. In Waltz, what is known as

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00:26:05,436 --> 00:26:11,476
Speaker 1: the Grand Nighthawk. Nighthawk means bodyguard security. He's dressed in

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00:26:11,556 --> 00:26:15,316
Speaker 1: military camouflage, and he has that clan patch on his

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00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:17,596
Speaker 1: chest on one side on the other side of his

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00:26:17,676 --> 00:26:21,236
Speaker 1: chest or the initials cakak and embroidered on his cap

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00:26:21,516 --> 00:26:24,156
Speaker 1: and said Knights of the ku Klux Klan, and on

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Speaker 1: his hip. He had a semi automatic handgun in a holster.

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Speaker 1: He comes in. Mister Kelly is walking directly behind him,

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Speaker 1: carrying a briefcase in a dark blue suit and tie,

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Speaker 1: and the Nighthawk turned the corner and saw me and

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00:26:39,996 --> 00:26:43,916
Speaker 1: just froze in his trap. So mister Kelly slammed into

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00:26:43,996 --> 00:26:46,716
Speaker 1: his back and knocked this guy forward. And now that

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00:26:46,796 --> 00:26:49,556
Speaker 1: they both are stumbling around trying to regain their balance,

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Speaker 1: and they're like looking all around the room like somebody's

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00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:55,116
Speaker 1: not right here. And I'm just sitting at the table

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00:26:55,156 --> 00:26:58,396
Speaker 1: looking at their faces, and I could read their faces

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00:26:58,436 --> 00:27:02,436
Speaker 1: like a billboard. Their faces were saying to me, did

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00:27:02,476 --> 00:27:04,516
Speaker 1: the desk kirk give us the wrong room number? Do

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00:27:04,596 --> 00:27:07,796
Speaker 1: you do? Do we misunderstand something or is this an ambush?

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Speaker 1: So you know, I saw the APPREHENDI and so I

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00:27:10,236 --> 00:27:13,236
Speaker 1: stood up and I displayed both of my palms to

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Speaker 1: show I had nothing in my hands, and I walked forward.

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Speaker 1: I extended my right hand and I said, Hi, mister Kelly.

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Speaker 1: I'm Darryl Davis. I hope both of these conversations inspired

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00:27:35,196 --> 00:27:38,956
Speaker 1: thinking and conversation around issues of race. You can find

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Speaker 1: more episodes of b Anti Racist and A Slight Change

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00:27:41,836 --> 00:27:44,276
Speaker 1: of Plans wherever you get your podcasts