1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: the show Ridiculous Historians. Shout out to our super producer, 3 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:35,159 Speaker 1: mister Max Williams. You're Noel Brown. I've Ben Bollen. 4 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 2: No. 5 00:00:35,640 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 3: No. 6 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: This is part two of an amazing conversation we have 7 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: had with the puzzler himself, the legendary author AJ Jacobs. 8 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,879 Speaker 4: Too cool, and I just have to say, uh, I 9 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 4: just I couldn't even bring it upon myself to believe 10 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:51,280 Speaker 4: that he really is a fan of the show, but 11 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,720 Speaker 4: he's dropping so many deep cuts from like episodes that 12 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 4: we forgot we even did. It turns out it's actually 13 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:58,360 Speaker 4: the case. And I think we're both beyond flatter because 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 4: we're huge fans of AJ's work as well. And this 15 00:01:00,800 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 4: conversation went all kinds of fun places, and I think 16 00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 4: we can probably just join it already in progress. 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: What are some of the I don't know. We talked 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: about the sociological sort of milieu or environment within which 19 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: these crazes, good and bad grow. Right, puzzles can become 20 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: incredibly popular, which hunts happen historically, right when people are 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,280 Speaker 1: looking for some sort of escape, some sort of cause 22 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:30,200 Speaker 1: that they can blame and maybe we go back to 23 00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: something you mentioned with jigsaws and the Great Depression, because 24 00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:40,880 Speaker 1: at first plance, honestly, it sounds like jigsaws might be 25 00:01:40,959 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: a difficult thing for people in the depression. Money is tight. 26 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 1: You have to buy the puzzle, right you can't. I 27 00:01:48,600 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: guess you could rent a jigsaw. That's good. 28 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 5: There were jigsaw libraries during the Depression. Yeah, really, yeah, yeah, Well, 29 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 5: just to back up, jigsaws were invented in seventeen sixty 30 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:04,000 Speaker 5: by this British map maker named John Spillsbury. They called 31 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:08,200 Speaker 5: them dissected maps, and they were meant to be a 32 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 5: learning tool. So the idea was, you know, you get 33 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:14,519 Speaker 5: your young British aristocrats and they like, here's the country 34 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 5: that you should colonize and plunder, and you know that 35 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 5: teach them how to carve up the world early on. 36 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:27,040 Speaker 5: And but it really caught on in the Great Depression 37 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 5: for a couple of reasons. Partly, like you said, people 38 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 5: needed a distraction, and you know, movies were huge and 39 00:02:34,440 --> 00:02:38,840 Speaker 5: jigsaws were huge. Also technology. They originally jigsaws were made 40 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 5: with a jigsaw. They were made out of wood carving. 41 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,240 Speaker 1: With a jigsaw. 42 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 5: But then they invented this cookie cutter like machine that 43 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 5: could chop down on cardboard and make them really quickly 44 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 5: mass produced. So during the depression you had these weekly 45 00:02:56,200 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 5: dime jigsaw puzzles and people would line up like a 46 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 5: I don't know whatever, people line up for now Billie 47 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 5: Eilish concert and so and and as with all the 48 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,960 Speaker 5: other puzzle crazes, you had moral panic. You had a 49 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,440 Speaker 5: preacher who said Nero fiddled while Rome was burning, and 50 00:03:14,560 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 5: we will go down in history as the nation who 51 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,720 Speaker 5: worked jigsaw puzzles while our country was falling to ruins. 52 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:21,080 Speaker 3: And amazing armists. 53 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 5: Yes, no, it did not fall to. 54 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: No, I'm inverted. I'm into it now. 55 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 4: Isn't Nero The idea of neuro fiddling while Rome burns? 56 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 4: Almost akin to let them eat cake? 57 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 3: Like? It's just sort of like a myth, that. 58 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: Right, I don't know that. 59 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:41,480 Speaker 5: I can't remember whether, I don't think well. 60 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: The problem with the leaders of the ancient past, whether 61 00:03:46,160 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 1: they be whether they be Roman emperors or whether they 62 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: be Catholic popes, is that the history gets written after 63 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:57,840 Speaker 1: their death, usually by a guy who is terrified of 64 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,440 Speaker 1: upsetting the current ruler. They'll say, okay, that guy was terrible, 65 00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: and you know, usually there's a lot of truth to that, 66 00:04:05,280 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: but then they'll lean in hard so that they don't 67 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: get executed. 68 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 3: Excellent point. 69 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 5: Excellent point. And there was even a split in the 70 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 5: in the jigsaw community during the depression between sort of 71 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 5: the rich and the poor, the powerful and because the 72 00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 5: rich and there still are these these fancy artisanal wooden 73 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 5: jigsaw puzzles that you can pay thousands of dollars for 74 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,440 Speaker 5: in their hand carved and one of the famous ones 75 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 5: during the depression was called par Puzzles. And here's a 76 00:04:38,440 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 5: this is a fun I would maybe not so fun fact, 77 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,359 Speaker 5: but they had all of these high end ones have 78 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,400 Speaker 5: a they have a signature piece, like a shape that 79 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 5: is in every puzzle. And the shape that Par went 80 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 5: with in the thirties was a swastika. Oh boy, and 81 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 5: that turned out to be not a great choice, so 82 00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 5: they had to switch to a seahorse. 83 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: Uh horses here, yeah, sea horse. 84 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 3: Yeah, we did. 85 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 4: We did an episode. We did an episode on I 86 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 4: believe it was just weird dental stuff and there was 87 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:16,840 Speaker 4: a material that dentures were once made. It was referred 88 00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 4: to as seahorse teeth, which when you read it on paper, 89 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 4: it just seems beyond ridiculous because seahors are so small 90 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 4: do they even have teeth? But what it was referring 91 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:27,480 Speaker 4: to actually was hippopotamus teeth. They're referring to them as 92 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 4: sea horses is a delightful misnomer. 93 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 5: I heard that on this very show, thank you. And 94 00:05:34,400 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 5: also I made me think because hippoponamous. I do believe 95 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 5: hippo is horse and us river horse is what it 96 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:46,120 Speaker 5: translates to, and it's not that far off. Also, if 97 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 5: you're around a hippopotamus, leave they are the most dangerous 98 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 5: Uh that is not a yeah, the most dangerous land mammal. Right, 99 00:05:56,200 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 5: shout out to the Mosquitos for most dangerous animal or humans? 100 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 5: Moving on, So so okay, so there are these, there 101 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 5: are these bespoke. There's a spectrum of jigsaws there, right, 102 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 5: the mass produced ones, and then there's this upper echelon 103 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:17,119 Speaker 5: of bespoke hand carved you know, hardwood what have used. 104 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 5: And those are probably the ones that the aristocrats are 105 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 5: still buying, right yeah, and they had. I mean, there's 106 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 5: a wonderful company if you can afford it, which I can't. 107 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 5: I is called Stave and They're in Vermont and they 108 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 5: make these wooden puzzles. Everyone is different, and they have 109 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:36,280 Speaker 5: people just carving them in what looks like a huge 110 00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 5: sewing machine. And Bill Gates is a is a client, 111 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,720 Speaker 5: and and they're called they're thousands of dollars like they are, 112 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 5: you know, they can go up to ten thousand dollars, 113 00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,240 Speaker 5: and they're super tricky. The guy who founded them calls 114 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 5: himself the tormentor in chief because he'll have puzzles that 115 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 5: they don't. They they look like edge pieces, but they're not. 116 00:06:57,720 --> 00:06:58,120 Speaker 1: They don't. 117 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 5: They have holes in the middle of the puzzle. They 118 00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:05,320 Speaker 5: have pieces from other puzzles intentionally stuck in that don't 119 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 5: fit at all, just to mess with your mind. 120 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:13,320 Speaker 1: I'm looking at just for reference, ridiculous historians. I am 121 00:07:13,360 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 1: looking at Steve puzzles dot Com too. I am looking 122 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: at their Honuka puzzle right now. It is two hundred pieces. 123 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,720 Speaker 1: It is two thousand, three hundred and ninety five dollars, 124 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: and just from the picture it looks kind of simple. 125 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:29,200 Speaker 1: I'm looking at and I'm thinking, well, I could knock 126 00:07:29,240 --> 00:07:29,720 Speaker 1: this one out. 127 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 3: Got some neat depth to them. 128 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 4: But I will say based on the hell the whole 129 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 4: idea of puzzle ending libraries. They have a rental program 130 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:42,880 Speaker 4: and a timeshare program for their puzzles, so that's how 131 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 4: you know. Then they have a whole page that descript 132 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 4: that explains the difference, so hilarious. 133 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's the I mean they I hope they're not 134 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 5: listening because they for the book, they lent me like 135 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,640 Speaker 5: five beautiful puzzles, oh wow. And I just have not 136 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 5: had a chance to return them, but I will, but 137 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 5: I will stay. 138 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:05,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, as long as you eventually return it, it's fine, right, 139 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: And yeah, I have been borrowing a. 140 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 3: I think the statutes passed. 141 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: I've been borrowing a uh uh encyclopedia from my high 142 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: school for quite some time now, but I will return 143 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:24,680 Speaker 1: it at one point when I am done reading it. 144 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 4: I don't know if they I think the internet has 145 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:34,400 Speaker 4: sort of replaced the encyclopedia sold door to door and 146 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:35,920 Speaker 4: they were very I. 147 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: Had. I've got an unabridged dictionary, not encyclopedia because that 148 00:08:42,120 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: would be in a set, right. But and that's that's 149 00:08:45,679 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: kind of a puzzle too when you think about it, 150 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:51,080 Speaker 1: I like what I guess it goes to what we 151 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: define as a puzzle, and you know, you talked briefly 152 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,360 Speaker 1: about the Rubik's cube, which I don't know about you, nol, 153 00:08:59,400 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: but those are still pretty baffling to me. I could 154 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 1: work through it, but I'm constantly befuddled and baffled by 155 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: those speed cubers. 156 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, and then there's there's even more elaborate versions and 157 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 4: shapes and sort of like hex like three dimensional sort 158 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 4: of hex hexagonal versions or whatever. But whenever I think 159 00:09:19,240 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 4: of these three dimensional puzzles, I don't know about you guys, 160 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 4: in my mind always goes back to the lament configuration 161 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 4: from Clive Parker Hell Raiser movies. And I'm a little 162 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 4: suspicious of these because I'm always afraid they're going to 163 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 4: summon these demonic, you know, snm. 164 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 3: Creatures from Hell. But I don't know about you. 165 00:09:36,600 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 4: Tell us about three D puzzles and some of these 166 00:09:38,840 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 4: like what's what's the fifteen puzzle? And believe there was 167 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 4: a bit of a scandal involved in that one too. 168 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 5: Yeah, this was actually this was a spatial puzzle that 169 00:09:47,679 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 5: of This was sort of the Rubis cube of his time, 170 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 5: the eighteen eighties, and it was called you've actually I'm 171 00:09:54,480 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 5: sure seen it. It's the little square with fifteen tiles 172 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 5: and an empty space, and you have to rearra it's 173 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 5: the tile. 174 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 3: So it's like a cracker bear. 175 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 1: I've got several yes, like a cracker BEARA. 176 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 5: This was huge in the eighteen eighties. And again it 177 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 5: was like a New York Times called a pestilence on 178 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,760 Speaker 5: our society and uh, and it was invented by a 179 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 5: postal worker. But the main character in this craze was 180 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,720 Speaker 5: a huckster. He was like this, this hooxter, a huckster 181 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 5: named Sam Lloyd. 182 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 1: Next do we get some like huckster con man. This 183 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:33,719 Speaker 1: will sound great in post. 184 00:10:35,920 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 5: So he claimed to have invented them, even though he didn't, 185 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,160 Speaker 5: and he sold millions of them, and he partly he 186 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,240 Speaker 5: did it by scamming America. He said that he would 187 00:10:45,240 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 5: pay one thousand dollars, which in eighteen eighty now you 188 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 5: know something, he said, anyone who can solve the fifteen 189 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 5: puzzle from this particular starting arrangement will get a thousand dollars. 190 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 5: But the catch was it was rigged. There are seven 191 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 5: billion initial arrangements of the fifteen puzzle, and half of 192 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:07,880 Speaker 5: them can be solved and half mathematically just cannot be solved. 193 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 5: So he put them in an impossible arrangement and just 194 00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 5: messed with people's minds and sold millions of them, and 195 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 5: that one sort of died out. It's not like crosswords 196 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 5: are still big, but the fifteen puzzle it had a 197 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:28,320 Speaker 5: little resurgence when Bobby Fisher, the chess legend, slightly disturbed 198 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 5: personality for him. There you go. Well, he was searching 199 00:11:32,679 --> 00:11:38,160 Speaker 5: for himself, yes, for sanity. He was obsessed with him 200 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 5: and solved speed solved one on the Johnny Carson Show 201 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy two and he like in seventeen seconds. 202 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 5: So that chess and fifteen puzzles were Bobby Fisher's obsessions. 203 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: And this is nuts because we can see, you know, 204 00:11:53,559 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: Chess requires such a dare I say, myopic commitment into 205 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,560 Speaker 1: it that other puzzles, because Chess is a game that 206 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 1: is also a puzzle, right, So I think when you 207 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,160 Speaker 1: get so deep into the world of chess, and I'm 208 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 1: cartoonishly bad at that game, when you get so deep 209 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: into it, then other puzzles seem kind of like elementary. 210 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 1: It's like playing a really hard video game and then 211 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,920 Speaker 1: you go back to Solitaire and you're like, oh, I 212 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:20,360 Speaker 1: got this. 213 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 3: It's a black eight, it's a red seven. Nailed it again. 214 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 4: I guess it all comes down to something called game theory, right, 215 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 4: and like, you know, a good puzzle, And to maybe 216 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 4: a question I asked earlier, like what makes one of 217 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 4: these really catch on? It needs to be difficult enough 218 00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 4: to be not so banging your head against a wall, 219 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:41,600 Speaker 4: but also difficult enough to like really feel like you 220 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 4: have a challenge and that you've succeeded in some small 221 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 4: way if you solve it. Can you just talk a 222 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 4: little bit what you've run into in terms of game 223 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:51,520 Speaker 4: theory and like how that sort of intersects with these 224 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 4: and to Ben's point, like how puzzles now kind of 225 00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 4: are in the realm of video games in a lot 226 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 4: of ways. 227 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,160 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, it's some of the greatest puzzles now or 228 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 5: video games, which my kids always argue it is, like 229 00:13:03,480 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 5: I'm not wasting time, I'm doing but the But like 230 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 5: you said, there's a goldilock zone, Like it's very easy 231 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 5: to make an impossible puzzle, uh, and it's also easy 232 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 5: to make it too easy puzzle, so you want it 233 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 5: just in the middle. And speaking of chess, there are 234 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 5: what are called chess puzzles or chess problems where you 235 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,200 Speaker 5: set up the pieces in a certain way and you 236 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 5: have to get to checkmate in you know, five moves. 237 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 5: And I actually for the book, I interviewed Gary kasper 238 00:13:38,840 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 5: Off and he he says, I'm not the best chess 239 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 5: I am. I was the best chess player. But chess 240 00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:53,600 Speaker 5: puzzles are different. It's a different skill. And he he said, like, 241 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 5: there are crazy chess puzzles that not even the best 242 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:02,400 Speaker 5: chess puzzlers can do that require five hundred moves. You 243 00:14:02,480 --> 00:14:05,320 Speaker 5: have to see five hundred moves in advance. The only 244 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:10,040 Speaker 5: only artificial intelligence can solve them. Only computers can solve these. 245 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:15,200 Speaker 5: So he but, but that speaks to that's not a 246 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 5: fun puzzle unless you're ascension robot. Maybe you find enjoying 247 00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 5: a fun puzzle is right in there where it's like 248 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 5: five moves and it's surprising. That's what it's like. You 249 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,280 Speaker 5: have to sacrifice your queen, something surprising and delightful. That 250 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 5: to me makes a good puzzle. 251 00:14:30,880 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 3: Got it? 252 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 1: I think another good puzzle thing to this point, and 253 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: this brings us to our next graze, which may be 254 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: near and dear to some of our listeners. One of 255 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:46,640 Speaker 1: the other incredibly like tantalizing things about a good puzzle 256 00:14:47,040 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: is you realize that if you shift your perspective right, 257 00:14:51,200 --> 00:14:53,880 Speaker 1: if your mind is the piece that moves, then you 258 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 1: will see the answer that has already been there the 259 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 1: entirety of the time, Which brings us to the great 260 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: obsession of nineteen eighties America amid a certain demographic and 261 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: of course someone who will always be welcome at conventions 262 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:15,920 Speaker 1: and coseplay gatherings. We ask you, aj where is Waldo? 263 00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:20,280 Speaker 5: Where is Waldo? Exactly? He is all over, at least 264 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:24,240 Speaker 5: in the eighties. And I loved researching the history of 265 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 5: Where's Waldo? Because there's, first of all, there's a long 266 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 5: history of artists hiding stuff in paintings. There's one Renaissance 267 00:15:30,680 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 5: painter who's famous for hiding a pickled cucumber in all 268 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 5: of his paintings. So I'm sure Freudians, Yes, Leonardo da 269 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:43,920 Speaker 5: Vinci also hid things in his paintings, not as much 270 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 5: as Dan Brown claimed in the Da Vinci Code. You know, 271 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 5: I don't think that the Last Supper is a secret 272 00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 5: clue that Jesus is a proud papa. But I do 273 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 5: think that there are legitimate art historians who say there 274 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,000 Speaker 5: are easter eggs. But like in the Last Supper, if 275 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 5: you look at the arrangement of the roles, the bread 276 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 5: rolls on the table, it looks eerily like notes in 277 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:15,480 Speaker 5: a musical notes and people have played these notes and 278 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 5: it's actually it's not bad. It sounds like So there 279 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 5: was that. 280 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 4: In fact, Da Vinci also hid actual penises in many 281 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 4: of his paintings. 282 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 5: So is that true in you can see Oh, I say, yeah, 283 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 5: it wasn't so hard to find those. Yeah, well this, uh, 284 00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 5: speaking of that, I don't know what that segue means, 285 00:16:40,600 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 5: doesn't Martin Martin Hanford is the British artist who probably 286 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 5: has a penis, and he is the one who created 287 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 5: the uh Where's Waldo? In nineteen eighty seven. God damn 288 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 5: it so smooth. And he actually he had done a 289 00:16:56,240 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 5: couple of Where's Waldo like paintings. He did a album 290 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:02,920 Speaker 5: cover for a group called the Vapors. I don't know, 291 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 5: I had never heard of them. 292 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 3: It was like a surf rock situation, perhaps, I don't know. 293 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 5: Yeah, and he uh, that was a little more adult. 294 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 5: That was a scene, a crowd scene, and there was 295 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,000 Speaker 5: a secret sniper like with a rifle which would not 296 00:17:18,119 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 5: go over with Where's Waldow? But he came out with 297 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 5: Where's Waldow in nineteen eighty seven, and this, of course 298 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 5: are these huge scenes and you have to find the 299 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 5: little guy with the red and white striped sweater and 300 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:33,119 Speaker 5: the glasses. And it was a massive, you know, forty 301 00:17:33,200 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 5: million copies sold all over the world. And there's actually 302 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 5: the original was called Where's Wahlie? That's what it was 303 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 5: called in Britain, and Waldo is the American one, and 304 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 5: I have a couple of the foreign ones there is well, 305 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,679 Speaker 5: maybe you can guess where is the va isht water 306 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 5: va Germany. 307 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 3: I had to jump in real quick. 308 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: The vapors are in English wave and power popping that 309 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: exists initially existed between nineteen seventy eighty and nineteen eighty one. 310 00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: They had a hit song which was titled Turning Japanese, which. 311 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:14,920 Speaker 4: Oh, I really think so yes, the album covers neat. 312 00:18:14,920 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 4: I mean, he really can see that Where's Waldo aesthetic? 313 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 4: But it is like a crowd scene, but the center 314 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 4: it's sort of on a grassy knoll situation, and they 315 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 4: the figures are crowded around this like sort of like 316 00:18:26,160 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 4: cadre of ambulances because it would appear that someone has 317 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 4: been shot because you can't see in the top corner 318 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 4: the waldou of this painting is in fact a sniper 319 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 4: putting away his gun. But the center crowd it makes 320 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 4: the shape of an eye, and like everything else above it, 321 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,359 Speaker 4: it's really cool. But yeah, and also on this article 322 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:48,600 Speaker 4: that I found on Unremembered History that shows this, it 323 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 4: points out that he was really inspired by a lot 324 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 4: of classical paintings that have these tableaus where there's like 325 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 4: a city or a scene a village and there's all 326 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 4: kinds of stuff going on, people doing all kinds of 327 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 4: little things, and they're full of Easter eggs, you know. 328 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,199 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, there's some great Easter eggs like Hieronymous Bosh 329 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 5: to it like it looks like and there I think 330 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 5: there is theories that he was uh like tripping on 331 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 5: some hallucinogen. 332 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 3: That very very disturbing. 333 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. I was able to see some of those in 334 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,879 Speaker 1: person earlier this year, the Bosh pains, and they still 335 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: don't let you photograph them, which I feels like kind 336 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:31,480 Speaker 1: of a rip to me, But I'm sure there are 337 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: legitimate reasons. Museum restorationist and curators please understand that we've 338 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:41,399 Speaker 1: got your back. Uh, and we're we're not going to 339 00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:45,040 Speaker 1: take pictures any longer where we are not supposed to, 340 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,040 Speaker 1: because let me tell you I had to Uh, I 341 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: had learn I had to learn a language pretty quickly 342 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: with that museum curator when I got when I got 343 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:59,600 Speaker 1: caught snapping and snitching with my iPhone, which which takes 344 00:19:59,680 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 1: us to an other things. So, so where's Waldo? The 345 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,160 Speaker 1: answer is around the world, but he's using different identities. 346 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 5: Is that there's Finn horrid Ga. Fien horrid Ga is uh, what's. 347 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 3: That Finland perhaps or somewhere in. 348 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:26,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, But can I give you my favorite where's Waldo? 349 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 5: Fact is that it has been consistently on the American 350 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:37,239 Speaker 5: Library Association's list of most banned books. And I researched this, 351 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 5: and this is not apocryphal. This is because in one 352 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 5: beach scene in one of his books, there's a small 353 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 5: illustration of a woman and she's not wearing a bikini top, 354 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 5: and some mothers got really upset and and you can't 355 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,040 Speaker 5: even see like there's there's no actual nipple. You can 356 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 5: sort of see a side boom, but because she's lying 357 00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 5: face down. But it was enough to get banned in 358 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 5: several states and make this list, and the publisher had 359 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,719 Speaker 5: to do like an emergency version with a like a 360 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 5: new bikini top. 361 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: A collector's and wait till the New York Times finds 362 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 1: out about this. I think we're due for another moral panic. 363 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 4: You know, it's interesting that the aesthetic of Where's Walla though, 364 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 4: to me, is very European, Like just the whole vibe 365 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,400 Speaker 4: of it feels like a book that would be popular 366 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 4: in Europe, and you know, they are much more open 367 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 4: about nudity and little things and this, you know, a 368 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 4: nude sunbather is something that you that would be a 369 00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:39,719 Speaker 4: normal thing to see in a beach scene. You can 370 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 4: only do so many different things and have it be 371 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 4: like super crowded. So it makes perfect sense that they 372 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:45,640 Speaker 4: were that he would have done that. 373 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,880 Speaker 5: But yeah, yeah, no one in England or in Germany 374 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 5: was complaining exactly right. 375 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,119 Speaker 1: I was going to say, famously more chill, but I 376 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: guess it depends on the era of time that we're 377 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:10,360 Speaker 1: referring to. So speaking of only having only so many things, 378 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:15,480 Speaker 1: we have made this a two parter and we have 379 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 1: to we can't talk about every puzzle. Unfortunately, to learn more, 380 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 1: you're going to have to read AJ's book, The Puzzler 381 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,360 Speaker 1: and tune into The Puzzler Podcast. But before we go, 382 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 1: fellow ridiculous historians, there's one that I'm sure we've all 383 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: been waiting for. 384 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:33,479 Speaker 3: I hope we have. 385 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,520 Speaker 4: I jumped the gun and set up the wrong thing 386 00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 4: when I was talking about the Lament configuration, which is 387 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:43,600 Speaker 4: sort of this hellish Rubik's cube. But this now we're 388 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 4: here with the idea of three dimensional puzzles and specifically 389 00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 4: Rubi's cube being the craze. But that wasn't the only 390 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 4: example of this type of thing, right. 391 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 5: Right, right, Wait, can I just do one last visual puzzle, 392 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 5: because yeah, it could be my favorite puzzle ever. It 393 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 5: was a few years about three years ago, the Baltimore 394 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 5: Sun printed one of those spot the Difference puzzles and 395 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 5: it was two pictures. You know, you have to find 396 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 5: the difference, and it was a kid brushing his teeth 397 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 5: in his pajamas. And the next day, the best correction 398 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 5: in newspaper history had said, we regret to inform you 399 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 5: that those two pictures were actually identical. 400 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: Amazy, I've always if you've always thought that, right, like 401 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: if you're looking at a very difficult version of those 402 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,879 Speaker 1: you've always thought, Okay, this is a prank, so that 403 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 1: actually feel. 404 00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 3: Like you're going insane. I feel like, yeah, it. 405 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 5: Wasn't even April Fools. It was just they messed up 406 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 5: and it was just can you imagine the human the 407 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,520 Speaker 5: hours of human wasted, you know, wasted. 408 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 4: Like it's because you refused your mind refuses to accept 409 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 4: that in the moment, you know, I'm just missing something. 410 00:23:59,000 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 3: The power. 411 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: I do have immense respect though, for that that hypothetical 412 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: person who is in that rarefied cognitive air, the person 413 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:13,760 Speaker 1: who not only looked at this extensively but wrote to 414 00:24:13,800 --> 00:24:18,000 Speaker 1: the Baltimore Sun and told them the picture was identical. 415 00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:19,720 Speaker 1: That's a lot of self confidence. 416 00:24:20,600 --> 00:24:21,160 Speaker 3: That's true. 417 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: That is true. 418 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 4: Kind of like the people that leave mean podcast reviews. 419 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 4: You know, who are these people? And where do you 420 00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 4: get your chutzpah? But yeah, no, no, If we could, though, 421 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 4: I would love to hear a little bit more about 422 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 4: some of these kind of art object type puzzles. You know, 423 00:24:36,119 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 4: I think they're like, I don't know, if you saw 424 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 4: the glass onion, the the you know, there was so many. 425 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 3: Cool puzzles that were like these. 426 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 4: You know, things, these like things that you interact with 427 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 4: that were all crazy bespoke. But to me, in my mind, 428 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,679 Speaker 4: I always go back to the humble Rubik's cube. But 429 00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 4: that represents sort of a modernized, you know, plasticified eighties 430 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 4: version of something that's very historic, you know, and that 431 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 4: you would have seen in like the Dan Browns of 432 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:04,720 Speaker 4: the World's kind of writings. 433 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: Totally like that. 434 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 5: Well, well, let me give you a quick Rubik's cube 435 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,040 Speaker 5: and then we'll move to like sort of the advanced 436 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:11,760 Speaker 5: through excube. 437 00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:13,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, But. 438 00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 5: The Rubik's cube was invented by Erno Rubik. He was 439 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 5: an architecture teacher in Hungary and he wanted to use 440 00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 5: it as a teaching tool. Now this makes me feel better. 441 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 5: It took Erno Rubik himself one month to solve his 442 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:26,399 Speaker 5: own cube. 443 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 3: Oh wow. 444 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 1: So yeah, I only know that because years ago I 445 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: wrote a show called The Stuff of Genius and we 446 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:37,480 Speaker 1: went and looked at inventors that the world. And that's 447 00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 1: one of the facts that that stuck with me. First off, 448 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: I love it when an invention is named after the 449 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,920 Speaker 1: guy who actually invented it, you know what I mean. Rice, 450 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,960 Speaker 1: And I also love just to get this part in. 451 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 1: I also love that that fact that he created something 452 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: he didn't understand. It reminds me a little bit of 453 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: artificial intelligence. 454 00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 4: I was going to ask, I mean, it seems to 455 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,640 Speaker 4: me that, you know, I would assume that anyone that's 456 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:05,160 Speaker 4: creating a puzzle or and designing a game that they're selling, 457 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,399 Speaker 4: what's the process for that? Like, I would imagine that 458 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:10,040 Speaker 4: a lot of cases you're working backwards from the solution. 459 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 4: But this is a great example of how maybe that's 460 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 4: not always the case. 461 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:14,200 Speaker 3: Yeah. 462 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 5: He writes about it in his autobiography, and I actually 463 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 5: found it very inspiring. He talks about how he packed 464 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 5: his room with all sorts of just random crap so 465 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 5: like safety pins and buttons and crayons, and it was 466 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:33,920 Speaker 5: like a little playground for his mind. And from that 467 00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 5: he eventually came up with the rubric cube that he 468 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 5: couldn't solve. And actually it was very hard to sell 469 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 5: it to a toy company because they were a lot 470 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 5: of this is too hard, no one's gonna want to 471 00:26:44,960 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 5: do this. And finally he sold it to the Ideal 472 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 5: Toy Company and they you know, as you know, it 473 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 5: just became a phenomenon. There have been about a half 474 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:00,919 Speaker 5: a billion of them sold by some estimate. It just 475 00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 5: a lot of Rubik's Cubes at the height. In the eighties, 476 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 5: there was a Saturday Morning cartoon of a flying crime 477 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 5: solving Rubik's Cube. We have a theme song by Menudo. 478 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:16,160 Speaker 3: Cocaine was a hell of a drug, my friend. 479 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: Finally, finally the theme song from Minudo, which is the stamp 480 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:23,280 Speaker 1: of authenticity exactly. 481 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 4: There was there was a video game in the early 482 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 4: nineties that starred the red Dot that was the logo 483 00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,440 Speaker 4: for Sprite, and it wore sunglasses and just bounced around 484 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:35,720 Speaker 4: and did stuff. So there was a golden age of 485 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 4: anthropomorphizing anything. 486 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: And Achester that she'tah had a game at some point, 487 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: but that was more nineties. And this this, uh, this 488 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:47,560 Speaker 1: is fascinating too because you would pointed out to us 489 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: that all the weeks called the Rubik's cube. Today it 490 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: had a different name, right, well, it. 491 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 5: Had all sorts of I mean, before they went with 492 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 5: the Rubik's Cube, they were thinking the Gordian Knott, the 493 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:04,040 Speaker 5: Inca gold, the Hungarian cube. But Rubik is such a 494 00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 5: great word and it kind of rhymes with cube, and 495 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,159 Speaker 5: it worked. It took off and it became a phenomenon. 496 00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 5: And what's funny is I interviewed all of these like 497 00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 5: old school nineteen eighties champions and first of all you vets, yeah, 498 00:28:19,560 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 5: the old style. And I mean it's kind of sad 499 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 5: because their records. They were all proud, like they got 500 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,439 Speaker 5: twenty three seconds and they were like, yeah, that was 501 00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 5: the first world record was about twenty three seconds, and 502 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 5: now the world record is three point four to seven seconds. 503 00:28:34,800 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: Oh that's insane. Because you can see these videos on 504 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: YouTube right from these they're much more frequent than annual. Now. 505 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,200 Speaker 1: I'm sure there's an annual Worlds competition, but there are 506 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: a lot of regional things. These guys do it like 507 00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: one handed blind fold. Yeah, they look away or they 508 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 1: put it behind their back. It's just this with their feet. 509 00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:57,800 Speaker 3: That was I. 510 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 5: Met the the North American world record holder for the footsto. 511 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 3: For the footstof. 512 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 4: Is there is there a standard like the way you 513 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 4: have like in gambling, someone takes calipers to your dice 514 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 4: and make sure it's regulation, like obviously it's it's evolved, 515 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,240 Speaker 4: you know, there's I think they're the gears are a 516 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,080 Speaker 4: lot smoother now, you know, that's probably partially why the 517 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,920 Speaker 4: times have been so you know, decreased. 518 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 3: But can you talk talk a little bit about like 519 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:25,520 Speaker 3: what what what are. 520 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 4: These standards for competitive play in the modern day Rubik's 521 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:29,800 Speaker 4: Cube world. 522 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 5: Well, it is hilarious because you talk to the old 523 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 5: timers and they have a grudge because, like you say, 524 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 5: it's much smoother. There are little magnets are allowed so 525 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 5: that it clicks into place. There's cube lube. You can 526 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:46,640 Speaker 5: get lots of different like brands of cube lube and 527 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 5: uh and lub up your your erubics. But yeah, of 528 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 5: course they're definitely it has to be mixed up in 529 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 5: a certain way. But there is a little bit of 530 00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 5: luck involved because it could be mixed up in a 531 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 5: way that it only needs like you know, fourteen turns 532 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 5: or whatever. 533 00:30:02,840 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 1: It lends itself to the algorithm, right. 534 00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:09,080 Speaker 5: Right, and these these kids and mostly kids memorize hundreds 535 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 5: thousands of algorithms because I did it, but I did 536 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 5: the easy way, Like there's one algorithm for for people 537 00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 5: like me. 538 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: But that'll eventually get Yeah, yeah, you say. 539 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 4: Algorithm, Like I guess maybe i'm sort of maybe miss 540 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 4: not not thinking about that term correctly. But is that 541 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 4: just numbers of configurations and possibilities or what can you 542 00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 4: talk a little bit more about what algorithm means when 543 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,479 Speaker 4: it comes to solving a Rubic's cube. 544 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 5: Sure, in the in the cubing community, as it's called, 545 00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:45,400 Speaker 5: it's it's basically a series of moves. So it's twist right, 546 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 5: twist up, twist down, twist left, and that is an algorithm. 547 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 5: So if you have a certain arrangement, then you're going 548 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,200 Speaker 5: to have to do an algorithm. And by memorizing these 549 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,000 Speaker 5: hundreds of different ones, you can figure out the fastest algorithm. 550 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 3: Through them by process of elimination almost kind of. 551 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's kind of like when you read the 552 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: notation for it, uh, it gets to the point where 553 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: it's similar to seeing chess notations. This is how you 554 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: do this, and it's it's more confusing than actually getting 555 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 1: there and just playing with the cube spatially. But I'm 556 00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: like you, aj, I had to I had to say, Okay, 557 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: here's the one I understand, right, and this this will 558 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 1: be my afternoon and this this craze takes over because 559 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,920 Speaker 1: it follows some of the same things we've learned that 560 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 1: make puzzles historically fascinating. Right, you do have a feeling 561 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: of progress. I think that's one thing we have to 562 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 1: have to make. We do have the feeling of an 563 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 1: answer being right in front of us, but we're part 564 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:52,320 Speaker 1: of the puzzle and we simply need to shift the 565 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,440 Speaker 1: blocks of our perspective. Going a little far on that one. 566 00:31:55,680 --> 00:32:00,200 Speaker 1: But but but as as you were saying, uh, this 567 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:06,200 Speaker 1: is it has maybe not reached the older heights of 568 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: its original craze, but it's still very much a global thing, right. 569 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,680 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, Well it had a second life with YouTube 570 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 5: because and again the old people are like, we had 571 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 5: to figure out ourselves. We didn't have YouTube tutorials. But 572 00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,400 Speaker 5: but yeah, these YouTube and like you said, people who 573 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 5: juggle them and do them underwater. 574 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:25,280 Speaker 1: You know it is. 575 00:32:25,640 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 5: It is pretty a wonderfully visual medium. And also, like 576 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,720 Speaker 5: Noel said, it's become artisanal. Like now people are making 577 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,120 Speaker 5: their own cubes that are not just cubes that got 578 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 5: twelve sides that like, you know, one in the shape 579 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 5: of Michael Jordan I saw rights and uh, and so 580 00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:45,880 Speaker 5: people have with three D printing. They've just become it's 581 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 5: like a golden age for what they're called twisty puzzles, 582 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 5: puzzles and and Noel brought up that it's not just 583 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 5: these twisty puzzles. This is a long tradition of three 584 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 5: D puzzles. 585 00:32:58,840 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: Uh. 586 00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:03,800 Speaker 5: And for the most famous are puzzle boxes, which is 587 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 5: isn't that the hell Raiser. 588 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 4: That configuration baby from your hell bounds heart? 589 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, that's right, let's read it. 590 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 4: Can I just ad a really quick gripe and then 591 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 4: I'll let you continue. I I sometimes fall a victim 592 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 4: to Instagram ads for products, it seems to Alex speaking 593 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 4: of algorithms, and I saw this would looked to be 594 00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 4: a completely workable, manipulatable uh puzzle box hell Raiser, And 595 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 4: I ordered it and it came in and the thing 596 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 4: as solid as a rock, didn't have a single articulating part. 597 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 4: It still looks really cool. But man, I'm that video. 598 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 4: It was like, ooh, I want to summon those demons. 599 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 4: But yeah, the puzzle box, right, let's let's. 600 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 3: Let's go on. Yeah. 601 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 5: The most famous ones are are Japanese puzzle boxes. 602 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got a few of those, you do, I've 603 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 1: got Well, I've got like the low end version. 604 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,440 Speaker 5: Well, yeah, it's super expensive. They can be thousands, like 605 00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 5: fifty thousand dollars for like the really high end ones. 606 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 4: No, like like the box that everyone gets at the 607 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:07,000 Speaker 4: beginning of Glass Onion, for example, to be invited to 608 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,160 Speaker 4: this you know, get away meeting of the mines at 609 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 4: the the you know, the Billionaire's Island. Everyone gets this 610 00:34:12,760 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 4: crazy box that has to be solved in various ways, 611 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 4: and then certain sides of it flip open and then 612 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,560 Speaker 4: you twist things and within it is a clue or whatever. 613 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 5: Right, And the traditional one is the Japanese one made 614 00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 5: of wood, and you slide some panels and you have 615 00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 5: to slide them in a certain direction and you open 616 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 5: it up. Usually there's nothing in it, and sometimes an 617 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:34,799 Speaker 5: invitation to an island party, but usually it's just like 618 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 5: I want to open this up. And and they've gotten 619 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:42,840 Speaker 5: so elaborate. There's this guy who does them on YouTube 620 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 5: and gets millions of hits because he does them live 621 00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 5: and you get to see him curse and sweat and 622 00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 5: throw things around. And I can't remember his name right now, 623 00:34:51,520 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 5: maybe Max knows it, but he but but these things 624 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,240 Speaker 5: are works of art. They're quite beautiful, and the best 625 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,880 Speaker 5: of them, like it's not just sliding, they get really creative. 626 00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 5: So you have to spin them. One one you have 627 00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 5: to freeze because I don't know it releases something. One 628 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 5: guy complained. He told me he ordered a puzzle box 629 00:35:13,200 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 5: in December to Massachusetts and it came solved because it 630 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 5: was all about freezing. Uh and it was already frosy 631 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,359 Speaker 5: like rip off. But yeah, these things are there are 632 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 5: extraordinary and I talked to the the people who do them, 633 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 5: and one of my favorites was this guy named Kagan 634 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 5: Sound who's in Colorado and he made one for the 635 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 5: movie director. What's the name of the guy who did 636 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:46,520 Speaker 5: He did the whale he did uh Oh, he made 637 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,799 Speaker 5: a desk for Darren Aronofsky that it was like an 638 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 5: Aroonofsky film. It took this guy four years to do 639 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 5: it and he said he lost all of his friends. 640 00:35:55,960 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 5: He just stayed in his workshop going insane. But it's amazing. 641 00:36:00,200 --> 00:36:02,200 Speaker 5: It's got all of these puzzles. I mean, it's not 642 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 5: great if you want to get a stapler out because like. 643 00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 4: You well, yes, but it really reminds me of Aeronowsky's 644 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 4: first film, Pie, which is all about, like you know, 645 00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:16,480 Speaker 4: just digging into the secrets of the universe until you 646 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 4: go completely mad. 647 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,680 Speaker 1: Fantastic slapstick comedy, especially for the holidays. 648 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 3: Watch with your children, So maybe do a double feature 649 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 3: with Requiem for a Dream. 650 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 1: The best best blind date I ever went on was 651 00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 1: going to see a blind double date see Requiem for 652 00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: a Dream. And we were running late, so we got 653 00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: dinner after. It was a very surreal moment at Applebee's 654 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: that evening. But with all this, you know, this is 655 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: just the beginning of the story. The world of puzzles 656 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,160 Speaker 1: is wide and vast, and I think it's not hyperbolic 657 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,960 Speaker 1: to say that as long as human hardware works the 658 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: way it does, puzzles will continue to rate and proliferate 659 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: in the future. And you know, we're a ridiculous history show. 660 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,960 Speaker 1: But Aja, I think we have to ask you here 661 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,880 Speaker 1: at the end of the week, what do you do? 662 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,360 Speaker 1: What do you think the future of puzzles is? Is 663 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:16,840 Speaker 1: there a world where it's just AI making puzzles for 664 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:18,440 Speaker 1: each other they just solve those? 665 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 5: Well, I think I mean AI can be used to 666 00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 5: make puzzles that are interesting and creative. I'm hoping that 667 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 5: we can collaborate with AI and that they won't take 668 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 5: over all the puzzle making themselves. And in fact, on 669 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 5: the Puzzler Show, we have like an AI. It's called 670 00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 5: like what guess the g chat GPT prompt, So we 671 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 5: give you what chat GPT said and you have to guess. 672 00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 5: But I do think we are still in the golden 673 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 5: age of puzzles, Like there are so many people now 674 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:59,239 Speaker 5: doing so much creative work in puzzles that I'm optimistic. 675 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 5: And again, like you know, I'm an evangelist, so I 676 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,480 Speaker 5: don't think it's I don't agree with the New York 677 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 5: Times that it's the end of civilization and that is 678 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 5: a waste of time and we're going to ignore our kids. 679 00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 5: I think it's actually at its best, it's like community building. 680 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:19,320 Speaker 5: Like the I saw the guy work Josh Wirdle w A. R. 681 00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 5: D Ellie, who he invented wordle, and I saw him 682 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:27,879 Speaker 5: speak at the Crossword Puzzle convention and he his argument is, yeah, 683 00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 5: it's it brings people together. Like it's a very almost 684 00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:35,839 Speaker 5: you know, like Kumbaya message. He talked about he gets 685 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,719 Speaker 5: letters from a gay man who reconciled with his conservative 686 00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:43,440 Speaker 5: Christian mother by doing wordle. 687 00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:43,920 Speaker 2: Uh. 688 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:49,160 Speaker 5: Yes, these nice little stories about puzzles bring us together. 689 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:55,759 Speaker 4: That's funny too because they are somewhat ideologically agnostic kind 690 00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,239 Speaker 4: of you know, there is a certain common ground to 691 00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:00,960 Speaker 4: them where you're sort of just trying to solve a goal. 692 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:03,719 Speaker 4: And I'm surely there are themed puzzles that you know, 693 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,640 Speaker 4: could have some sort of whatever leaning, But in general, 694 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:09,279 Speaker 4: wouldn't you say they are kind of like an even 695 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:11,160 Speaker 4: playing field in terms of that kind of stuff. 696 00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 5: Absolutely, And it depends on the type of puzzle, as 697 00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 5: you say, like you know, I think sudoku is is 698 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:19,560 Speaker 5: pretty even. There's It's been actually fascinating to watch the 699 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 5: politics of crossword puzzles because there was a few years 700 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,720 Speaker 5: ago there was a movement a lot of crossword makers 701 00:39:28,760 --> 00:39:32,440 Speaker 5: of color and women cross science. They sent a petition 702 00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 5: to the New York Times saying it was it was 703 00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,279 Speaker 5: too white and male, the clues and the makers were 704 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 5: too white and male. And they've actually changed, Like the 705 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,359 Speaker 5: New York Times, it had an impact. They hired some 706 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:47,320 Speaker 5: editors who were people of color. So so it depends 707 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 5: on the type there are. It can get political, like everything, 708 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,719 Speaker 5: but it can also I do think that something like 709 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,800 Speaker 5: a puzzle box is uh is accessible to anyone. 710 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,040 Speaker 4: Well, and I just wanted to give you a quick 711 00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,240 Speaker 4: recommendation since you have kids in your interest in video games, 712 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:06,680 Speaker 4: and it sounded like you, you know, think there is 713 00:40:06,719 --> 00:40:09,239 Speaker 4: some potential and creativity and you know, puzzles in the 714 00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,080 Speaker 4: video game realm. We are kind of a golden age 715 00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:14,799 Speaker 4: of like indie game designs and like you know, with 716 00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 4: Steam and various you know, nine ten dollars games, you 717 00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 4: can get that they're out there, you know, to be had. 718 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:24,440 Speaker 4: There's a game called Cocoon that is a purely just 719 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 4: puzzle game, but it's beautifully designed. It's incredibly interactive and 720 00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:32,200 Speaker 4: kind of trippy, and I think you and your kids 721 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:32,960 Speaker 4: would really dig it. 722 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:33,680 Speaker 2: I love it. 723 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 3: Do you guys? 724 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,920 Speaker 1: Remember Missed with a y it's got this actually has 725 00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: missed design, missed. 726 00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:42,239 Speaker 3: Qualities to it, but it's Yes, what a cool game 727 00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:42,640 Speaker 3: that was. 728 00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you haven't played Missed, it's a it's a 729 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,960 Speaker 1: nice chill point and click And I'm with you, guys. 730 00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: I love games that are not you know, super high 731 00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,480 Speaker 1: adrenaline busters. You know, they're just like, hey, let's lay 732 00:40:54,520 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: back and investigate, point and click. 733 00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:57,320 Speaker 3: Uh. 734 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: And with this, folks, we have to tell you we 735 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,280 Speaker 1: are calling it today, but please do go to your browser, 736 00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,560 Speaker 1: your mobile thinga madjig of choice and point and click 737 00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,000 Speaker 1: on the puzzler which is as you said, aja daily 738 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,720 Speaker 1: show coming out with such luminary guests such as michae 739 00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: Iam Black, Roywood Junior. I think our Palo Fia Eisenberg 740 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,000 Speaker 1: has been on there as well as. 741 00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:24,800 Speaker 3: Gosh, it's a cavalcade of folks. 742 00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: We can't name them all, but we can tell you 743 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: each episode brings unique, new and fascinating puzzles with the 744 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:37,600 Speaker 1: world class expert on them. Aj Where can people learn 745 00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:40,920 Speaker 1: more about your work because you've done much much more 746 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 1: than just puzzled over our Yes. 747 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 5: Well, first of all, the other luminaries include Ben and 748 00:41:46,800 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 5: soon to come know al So I'm very excited about that, 749 00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,320 Speaker 5: And I mean, this is a dream. I love your podcast, 750 00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 5: so it is like it's very weird to be on 751 00:41:57,880 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 5: a podcast you love. 752 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: Thank you for not stopping at it's very weird. 753 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 3: Very weird to do. 754 00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:04,800 Speaker 4: I do just want to say though, we had intended 755 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,879 Speaker 4: to do two different topics, and I may have even 756 00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,120 Speaker 4: set it up weirdly where I said that one of 757 00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 4: them was an intersection with a very recent episode that 758 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,319 Speaker 4: we did, and I hope that we can maybe even 759 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:16,480 Speaker 4: just go ahead and do it before the holidays, you know, 760 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 4: get you back and do this other one that is 761 00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 4: sort of about puzzles and ciphers and all of this 762 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:22,200 Speaker 4: kind of stuff. 763 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:23,480 Speaker 3: Because this one. 764 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,359 Speaker 4: Ended up being more than we would normally fit into 765 00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 4: a single episode, so we just split it. 766 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,440 Speaker 3: But we'd love to get that one on the books. 767 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: Too, all right, or at least January. Yeah, and at 768 00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: twenty three three, or we'll kick off twenty twenty four 769 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 1: with more puzzles. No spoilers, folks, but the next time 770 00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: Aji returns, we're going to be talking about a particularly 771 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 1: great game. Oh my gosh, that's too much. So thank 772 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:49,560 Speaker 1: you so much for tuning in, folks. Thanks as always 773 00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,719 Speaker 1: to our super producer, mister Max Williams. Thanks to the 774 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:56,440 Speaker 1: one and only legendary author and now podcaster A. J. 775 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,319 Speaker 3: Jacobs, Noel who else. 776 00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:01,000 Speaker 1: Oh you know what, We got to get Jonathan Strickland 777 00:43:01,040 --> 00:43:02,719 Speaker 1: ak the Quizzer to get his act together. 778 00:43:02,920 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 4: That's right, Twist and the Puzzler too much, too much now, 779 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 4: but he's gonna wait. 780 00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 3: That's why we got to get him in before the 781 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 3: end of the year. I know that he's in building 782 00:43:10,600 --> 00:43:11,000 Speaker 3: right now. 783 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:16,480 Speaker 1: Oh yes, I can say his name too many times now. 784 00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 3: I'm glad that I'm not in the building. 785 00:43:18,440 --> 00:43:20,839 Speaker 4: But We do want to thank though, Alex Williams, who 786 00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,319 Speaker 4: in fact is Max's brother, who composed our theme which 787 00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:26,800 Speaker 4: is definitely playing right now. Chris Frostiotis leaves Jeff Coates 788 00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 4: here in spirit. 789 00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 3: Ben, thank you a j well once again, thank you. 790 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:32,839 Speaker 4: It was an absolute pleasure and look forward to having 791 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 4: you back soon and also getting in. 792 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:35,320 Speaker 3: That hot seat. 793 00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:37,040 Speaker 5: Hell yeah, I can't wait. 794 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 3: I can't wait. 795 00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,080 Speaker 5: We'll be gentle, We'll be gentle. 796 00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,720 Speaker 3: I appreciate it. Puzzle away, We'll see you next time, folks. 797 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,520 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 798 00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.