Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flumm. You know
Speaker 1: many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen
Speaker 1: the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story
Speaker 1: of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of
Speaker 1: the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard in Manitoac, Wisconsin.
Speaker 1: It starts off in nineteen eighty five, where Stephen Avery
Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted of a sexual assault, for which he
Speaker 1: was exonerated eighteen years later when the DNA in the
Speaker 1: case was found to match another man and his alibis
Speaker 1: were proven to have been true all along. After his release,
Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, Avery filed a thirty six
Speaker 1: million dollars civil suit against Manitoa County, Wisconsin and several
Speaker 1: of its officials. Fast forward to two thousand and five,
Speaker 1: Teresa Halback, a photographer known to have been photographing cars
Speaker 1: on the Avery property, went missing. The handling of the
Speaker 1: investigation was quite controversial, to say the least, with issues
Speaker 1: of evidence tampering, not to mention the obvious conflict of
Speaker 1: interest in allowing Manitoa County to investigate the very same
Speaker 1: man who was suing them for thirty six million dollars. However,
Speaker 1: all of that aside, the most damning piece of evidence
Speaker 1: came in the form of a false confession from Avery's nephew,
Speaker 1: Brendan Dacy, a sixteen year old boy with no criminal
Speaker 1: record and serious mental challenges. Now, I'm honored to present
Speaker 1: the exclusive, the one and only interview that Brendan has
Speaker 1: ever given to anyone joining us has Esteemed Appella, attorney
Speaker 1: from the Center on Romful Convictions at Northwestern University, my
Speaker 1: friend Laura and nightrider. Laura was kind enough to pick
Speaker 1: me up from the airport in Chicago and we drove
Speaker 1: out to Oshkosh Correctional Facility for a pre interview behind
Speaker 1: bars with Brendan. This left us with both time to
Speaker 1: talk and plenty to talk about. We have had a
Speaker 1: very eventful last twenty four hours.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's been a trip I've done so
Speaker 2: many times for going on twelve years now, and you know,
Speaker 2: it was a trip I hoped to never have to
Speaker 2: make again. That it's a trip that you know what
Speaker 2: we're going to keep on doing for as long as
Speaker 2: we have to do. Right, go out there, support him,
Speaker 2: and I'm just glad you had a chance to see
Speaker 2: who Brendan is, you know, to really spend some time
Speaker 2: with him and get to know him, because he's a
Speaker 2: pretty incredible guy.
Speaker 1: Brendan is a very powerful example of a phenomenon that
Speaker 1: amazes me and keeps me going and drives me onward
Speaker 1: in this fight, which is that there is an absolute
Speaker 1: and total absence of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like
Speaker 1: I don't even think he knows what those emotions are.
Speaker 2: He's an incredible guy. I mean, you know, he was
Speaker 2: sixteen when he went in. He's twenty nine years old now,
Speaker 2: and during that whole period of time of knowing him,
Speaker 2: You're right, I mean, Brendan is a sweet soul. You know,
Speaker 2: he's a he's a simple guy. He's a funny guy.
Speaker 2: He's gentle. He's so gentle and kind. No, no, he's not.
Speaker 1: That's right, And in his story is one of extreme juxtaposition, right,
Speaker 1: because he went from being a very childlike young person
Speaker 1: adolescent into a very extreme grown up situation. You got
Speaker 1: involved with Brendan's case at what stage?
Speaker 2: Well, let's start with Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case.
Speaker 2: In two thousand and seven, about three months after Brendan
Speaker 2: was convicted at his trial, Steve was asked to handle
Speaker 2: Brendan's appeals going forward because of his expertise around interrogations
Speaker 2: and confessions.
Speaker 1: This is long. He was just another of the two
Speaker 1: point two million people in prison and right.
Speaker 2: That's right the system and Steve took the case. Now
Speaker 2: this is two thousand and seven. Okay. So at the time,
Speaker 2: Steve was teaching here at Northwestern Law School, and I
Speaker 2: was a third year law student in Steve's class on
Speaker 2: wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend to practice criminal law.
Speaker 2: I actually had a career all mapped out for myself
Speaker 2: as a business lawyer. I was going to go do that.
Speaker 2: I had a job lined up after graduation. I knew
Speaker 2: nothing at a law from here in town, here in Chicago,
Speaker 2: And you know, I knew nothing about the criminal justice system.
Speaker 2: I knew nothing about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing
Speaker 2: about false confessions. But I'd signed up for Steve's class,
Speaker 2: you know, on a whim, try to do something off
Speaker 2: the beaten path. And a few months into that fall
Speaker 2: semester of my last year of law school, that's you know,
Speaker 2: Steve called me into his office and he said, I've
Speaker 2: just gotten involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a
Speaker 2: sixteen year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed to
Speaker 2: a crime that I don't think he committed. And he
Speaker 2: handed me the interrogation videos from Brendan Dasy's case, right
Speaker 2: the same videos that years and years later ended up
Speaker 2: in making a murder, And he told me to go
Speaker 2: watch them. So I went home, I sat down on
Speaker 2: my couch, I got out my laptop, because this is
Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, I pop in these DVDs and
Speaker 2: I watched them all right from start to.
Speaker 1: Finish, their confession tapes.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and my heart broke and I knew that this
Speaker 2: is it. This is what I had to do with,
Speaker 2: you know, fight for people like Brendan. So, you know,
Speaker 2: no more business law for me. I came back to
Speaker 2: Northwestern after graduating, and for the last twelve years I've
Speaker 2: been building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions, where
Speaker 2: we represent Brendan and other kids just like him.
Speaker 1: So for the people who may not have seen making
Speaker 1: a Murder, and there are those who listen to our
Speaker 1: show who haven't seen it yet, what was it, what
Speaker 1: was the moment? What was it about those tapes?
Speaker 2: Yeah? It's a great question. You know, I actually remember
Speaker 2: the moment.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: It's so this is a videotape of the entire interrogation.
Speaker 2: Right actually questioned four times over forty eight hours, and
Speaker 2: it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession.
Speaker 2: You know, which I which I say in quotation marks.
Speaker 2: But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right,
Speaker 2: this is a murder case. So they want to ask
Speaker 2: him about, you know, how was the victim in this case?
Speaker 2: How was Teresa Hallbach killed?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: And And these police going into the interrogation, they know,
Speaker 2: or they think they know, based on their own investigation,
Speaker 2: that she had been shot in the head. So they're
Speaker 2: waiting for Brendan to describe shooting somebody in the head, right,
Speaker 2: So they ask him, you know, Brendan, how did you guys?
Speaker 2: You know, how did you kill Teresa Hallbach? And he says, we.
Speaker 3: Choked her her.
Speaker 2: Well, that's that's not right. So they said him, Okay,
Speaker 2: you know what else, Brendan, what else did you do
Speaker 2: to her?
Speaker 3: We know something else was done. We stabbed her.
Speaker 2: Still not right, So they actually started not even close,
Speaker 2: so they start dropping him hints right, they say, come on,
Speaker 2: bre and then something with the head, something with the head.
Speaker 2: What else did you guys do to her? And Brendan says,
Speaker 2: we punched.
Speaker 4: Her and that's still not right.
Speaker 2: So it's like Brendan's completely at sea and he says,
Speaker 2: you know, we caught off her hair and his voice
Speaker 2: goes up like that like he's asking a question and no, no, no, Brendan,
Speaker 2: come on, what else? What else? Something with the head?
Speaker 2: What else?
Speaker 3: What else?
Speaker 2: What else was done to her head? And this goes
Speaker 2: on and on and on, and finally Brendan, you know,
Speaker 2: he must get exhausted, and he just says.
Speaker 3: That's what I can remember.
Speaker 1: And uh.
Speaker 2: The officers at that point say to him, Brendan, I'm
Speaker 2: just going to come out and ask you.
Speaker 1: All right, I'm just going to come out and ask
Speaker 1: him who.
Speaker 3: Shot her in the hat?
Speaker 2: And you know, Brendan says, well, that was that was
Speaker 2: my uncle Stephen. And then, you know, comes one of
Speaker 2: the most heartbreaking moments of the entire interrogation because they
Speaker 2: say to him, Brendan, why didn't you just tell us that?
Speaker 3: Why didn't you tell us that?
Speaker 2: And he says, because I couldn't think of it. Right,
Speaker 2: he was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced
Speaker 2: the way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say
Speaker 2: for a moment that the story was true, that this
Speaker 2: bloody attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that
Speaker 2: Brendan's confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom
Speaker 2: and that bed to be covered with forensic evidence blood
Speaker 2: from a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her
Speaker 2: hair was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard
Speaker 2: it is to clean up hair. And of course, after
Speaker 2: Brendan gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen
Speaker 2: Avery's bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate
Speaker 2: the confession. They searched the bed, They searched the bedding,
Speaker 2: the mattress, the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at
Speaker 2: the carpet underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back
Speaker 2: and looked underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling
Speaker 2: off the walls in the bedroom, searching for a single
Speaker 2: molecule of Teresa Halbach's DNA or Brendan Dacy's DNA, and
Speaker 2: they found nothing. This story didn't happen. It's made up.
Speaker 1: The day after our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Correctional,
Speaker 1: we did our formal interview with Brendan over the phone
Speaker 1: from Laura's office at Northwestern University.
Speaker 3: Tod Goud Correctional.
Speaker 1: Lava, Hello, Hi, Brendan.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 1: It seems like only yesterday that I saw you, because
Speaker 1: it was only yesterday. Yeah, and it was great to
Speaker 1: meet you. You know, Laura and I had a long
Speaker 1: ride back to sh Chicago, and obviously we talked about
Speaker 1: you a lot and things that we are hoping to
Speaker 1: do to make a difference for you and with you,
Speaker 1: I mean, well, wait for the announcement to go by.
Speaker 1: You went through an ordeal that even those of us
Speaker 1: that have seen the show and have seen on video
Speaker 1: parts of what happened, obviously we couldn't see the whole thing,
Speaker 1: but none of us can understand what it would be
Speaker 1: like to be in your shoes, you know, to be
Speaker 1: in this impossible situation of being a really a child
Speaker 1: at sixteen. You're still a child, You're not a grown man, yeah,
Speaker 1: and to be going to this interrogation where you have
Speaker 1: grown men who are interrogating you for days, without a parent,
Speaker 1: without a lawyer, without anyone to help you. I mean,
Speaker 1: were you scared or were you just thought maybe if
Speaker 1: you've just told the truth, everything would be fine. What
Speaker 1: was your thought process at that.
Speaker 3: Point, Well, I just wanted it all over with, so
Speaker 3: I said whatever they wanted to hear.
Speaker 1: You know, most people grow up as I did, with
Speaker 1: believing that the law enforcement are out to help us, right,
Speaker 1: there are people you call when you need help. Did
Speaker 1: you have that same idea when you went in there?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought maybe anything I can do to help them,
Speaker 3: you know I would.
Speaker 1: So was there a point when you were in that
Speaker 1: horrible room where you started to worry about the outcome,
Speaker 1: or that you thought that these men may have been
Speaker 1: not as well intentioned as you originally thought.
Speaker 3: Yeah. When they started saying that that I wasn't telling
Speaker 3: the truth and that my story didn't fit the fact
Speaker 3: that they had, that's when I started getting worried.
Speaker 1: There's a very good reason your story didn't fit the fact,
Speaker 1: because you didn't know the fact. Yeah, so, Brandon, you
Speaker 1: remember there was a time when the interrogators left the
Speaker 1: room for a few minutes and your mom came back
Speaker 1: into the room. Yeah, beautiful life to say you.
Speaker 3: Did you.
Speaker 1: Huh, not really?
Speaker 3: What do you mean?
Speaker 1: Not really?
Speaker 3: Huh?
Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? So? Was that the
Speaker 1: first time you had seen your mom since they had
Speaker 1: started interrogating you? Yeah, that is okay? So what was
Speaker 1: it like to see her after being alone with those
Speaker 1: interrogators for such a long time?
Speaker 3: I felt that I could be safe and I could
Speaker 3: tell her the truth. You know that they got into
Speaker 3: my head. They got me to say whatever they want it.
Speaker 1: Do you think either before, during, or after that, the
Speaker 1: detectives conducting that interrogation knew or realized that he was
Speaker 1: actually innocent.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a very good question, and it's something
Speaker 2: I've asked myself right over and over again. This is
Speaker 2: just my opinion, but I think that they were worried
Speaker 2: that something had gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the
Speaker 2: box for about three and a half hours. He's adopted
Speaker 2: their theories that he committed rape and murder and the
Speaker 2: whole thing, and the story is over, it's done, it's locked,
Speaker 2: and they let her into the room, and the cameras
Speaker 2: are still rolling in the room, right and they leave
Speaker 2: the two of them alone. You know, it's my theory
Speaker 2: that they were outside watching this all enclosed circuit camera,
Speaker 2: hoping that Brendan was going to make more admissions to
Speaker 2: his mother. Instead, he recame one of the clearest recantations
Speaker 2: I've ever heard, Right, Brendan using his own words, his
Speaker 2: own ability to express himself, to tell his mom what
Speaker 2: he had just been through. They got to my head.
Speaker 2: And at that moment the officers come barging back through
Speaker 2: that door into the interrogation room, and Brendan doesn't say
Speaker 2: another word.
Speaker 1: I'm getting the chills. I mean, as a parent, it's
Speaker 1: just so heartbreaking. And look, I always say, there are
Speaker 1: a lot of very good people in our criminal justice system,
Speaker 1: but the ones who do the types of things that
Speaker 1: were done to Brendan. I mean, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: villains in this story.
Speaker 2: Right, some unbelievable characters in the story.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so the system that was designed in theory
Speaker 1: to protect the innocent and in this case, to protect
Speaker 1: Brendon failed at every level.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: I mean you're starting in the interrogation room, that's right.
Speaker 1: Starting with the fact that they targeted him in the
Speaker 1: first place. I don't really understand. I mean, I have
Speaker 1: a theory in my own head about why they may
Speaker 1: have done that. And maybe we'll never know, but it
Speaker 1: seems like to me they wanted to build a stronger
Speaker 1: case against Stephen, no doubt about it, and so they
Speaker 1: went for the weakest lengthage, no doubt about it. Right,
Speaker 1: They knew that small community, they knew that Brendan was
Speaker 1: a simple person.
Speaker 2: Well, that's right. And you know, one of the things
Speaker 2: about Brendan, of course, he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that.
Speaker 2: But his disabilities in particular are clustered around speech. The
Speaker 2: way he speaks, the way he hears language, the way
Speaker 2: he processes words, and the way he uses his own words. Right,
Speaker 2: So you know, this is not a person who can
Speaker 2: sort of weave sophisticated stories or lies or things like that.
Speaker 2: And of course these are disabilities that are at the
Speaker 2: center of an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level
Speaker 2: of conversation talking about you know, what could happen to
Speaker 2: him if he didn't confess because there was a threat
Speaker 2: in this case, what would happen to him if he
Speaker 2: didn't start adopting the story that was being fed to him.
Speaker 2: What was going to happen. On the other hand, if
Speaker 2: he did agree to go along with the story, you know,
Speaker 2: this is a really hard situation for someone like brendan
Speaker 2: sixteen special education student in Wisconsin public schools, the hard
Speaker 2: situation for him to navigate. He did the best he could.
Speaker 1: For as long as he could, for as long as
Speaker 1: he could.
Speaker 2: Four times, over forty eight hours, these officers questioned him.
Speaker 1: And they should have been a first round knockout.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, he held up as long as he could.
Speaker 1: You've been investigating a lot.
Speaker 2: We already know what happened. To be a lot easier
Speaker 2: on you it that's going to be wrong.
Speaker 3: I'm your friend, but the honest person you get a
Speaker 3: better deal.
Speaker 2: We're going to believe on that work.
Speaker 3: I don't believe in.
Speaker 1: You're archaical. You can't make any propis, but we'll stand
Speaker 1: behind you.
Speaker 3: Your mom said you'd be honest with She's behind you.
Speaker 4: Know what happened.
Speaker 2: She thinks you don't want to do and you're more foreigner.
Speaker 3: We already know what happened on to us.
Speaker 1: Exactly what would you tell people when they're sitting in
Speaker 1: that jury box and they're to incredible testimony videotapes. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm someone going yeah, I did it. Yeah, So what
Speaker 1: should people watch? Because some confessions are true.
Speaker 2: Of course, some confessions are true. Those are the ones
Speaker 2: we want, right, it's you know, we got to screen
Speaker 2: out the false confessions.
Speaker 1: What do they look for?
Speaker 2: Okay? So the big message, right, A confession is just
Speaker 2: a piece of evidence, like any other piece of evidence. Right,
Speaker 2: Sometimes it can be misleading, and you question it and
Speaker 2: you examine it in the same way that you'd ask
Speaker 2: you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about any other piece
Speaker 2: of evidence. Right, can I trust what this person is saying?
Speaker 2: So when you see a confession like Brendan Darcy's, where
Speaker 2: somebody is getting the facts of the crime wrong unless
Speaker 2: they're being told the right answer, that's a red flag. Right.
Speaker 2: It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation, details large and small. He
Speaker 2: can't come up with. He's guessing, and he guesses wrong, actually,
Speaker 2: until he gets strained out by the officers. Not just
Speaker 2: about how Teresa Holbach was killed, but he he can't
Speaker 2: decide if if for shirt was black or white? Right,
Speaker 2: he doesn't know what the right answer is. Has he
Speaker 2: never met her because he never saw her, that's right.
Speaker 2: He can't decide if the fire was started at three
Speaker 2: pm or later on in the evening after dark, right,
Speaker 2: I mean he doesn't know these things. He's just guessing
Speaker 2: all over the place. And you see this repeatedly throughout
Speaker 2: false confession cases, because what you have in those cases
Speaker 2: are people who had nothing to do with the crime
Speaker 2: trying to say something that sounds believable to satisfy their interrogators.
Speaker 1: Almost everybody I've ever met says the same thing. I
Speaker 1: am not that guy. I'm smart, I'm capable, I'm strong.
Speaker 1: I'm not confessing to crime and then commitment.
Speaker 2: Everybody thinks this, right, Well, that's for other people, right,
Speaker 2: That's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people, that's for
Speaker 2: children maybe. So what you have to understand is that
Speaker 2: interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological tactics that
Speaker 2: are designed to get people off their belief in their
Speaker 2: own innocence and designed to actually make them believe that
Speaker 2: it will help them, that it will improve their situation,
Speaker 2: that it will benefit them to say they did these
Speaker 2: things that the officers think. Right, these are incredibly powerful techniques,
Speaker 2: and every single one of us has a breaking point,
Speaker 2: and these techniques are designed to find it. So how
Speaker 2: does this work?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: So the way this basically works. Interrogation is generally a
Speaker 2: two stage process. The first half is all about confrontation
Speaker 2: and reducing you down to hopelessness. Right, we know you
Speaker 2: did this. I've got so much evidence against you. No
Speaker 2: one is gonna believe you when you say you're innocent. Right,
Speaker 2: I've got three people in the room next door who
Speaker 2: picked you out of a lineup. I've got your DNA
Speaker 2: on the scene, I've got your fingerprints on the gun.
Speaker 2: Even if none of that is true. By the way,
Speaker 2: it's perfectly legal for police to lie.
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 2: Not the UK, that's right, but here it's perfectly legal
Speaker 2: for the police to lie during interrogations. So they bring
Speaker 2: you down to hopelessness. Right, I'm not going to listen
Speaker 2: to you say you're innocent. You're just making it worse
Speaker 2: off for yourself. No one's gonna believe you. You're caught, you're trapped,
Speaker 2: you're screwed, You've got nothing. And when you reach that
Speaker 2: point of hopelessness, that's when they offer you an out
Speaker 2: right a life raft confession. It's going to help you.
Speaker 2: If you confess, you will go easy on you. You know,
Speaker 2: I'll go talk to the judge. Right, I'll see what
Speaker 2: I can do for you. Things are going to be
Speaker 2: so much better for you. You've got a whole life
Speaker 2: to live in front of you. You're just a kid.
Speaker 2: People are going to understand that over and over. But
Speaker 2: I need to hear the story from you, right, People
Speaker 2: are going to understand that you deserve help if you cooperate.
Speaker 2: That's how it works, right. These techniques are incredibly good
Speaker 2: at getting true confessions, but they are so potent that
Speaker 2: they also get false confessions.
Speaker 1: And this actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is
Speaker 1: where this was originated, right, the read technique.
Speaker 2: The read technique actually even better than that. It's originated
Speaker 2: here out of the work of a professor at Northwestern
Speaker 2: Law School. Oh my god, back in the nineteen forties. Right,
Speaker 2: So before these are that's right, before these psychological techniques
Speaker 2: were developed, interrogations were physical, right the third degree. People
Speaker 2: were beaten or hung out of windows. Right, this is
Speaker 2: how it was done. And in the forties, these people
Speaker 2: who at the time were thought of as progressive reformers
Speaker 2: come along and say, you know what, let's stop physically
Speaker 2: abusing people. Let's do the psychological techniques instead. Those techniques
Speaker 2: that were developed here at Northwestern here in Chicago back
Speaker 2: in the nineteen forties, are still being used today. Talk
Speaker 2: about outdated, even though the DNA revolution, which has been
Speaker 2: in full swing now for twenty five years, has proven
Speaker 2: time and again that these outdated techniques are far too
Speaker 2: capable of coercing false confessions.
Speaker 1: The crazy thing is correct me if I'm wrong, you're
Speaker 1: the lawyer in this equation. But had Brendan said what
Speaker 1: I advise people listening to the show or anybody who
Speaker 1: asked me anywhere. If you're picked up for a crime
Speaker 1: that you didn't commit, and you're brought to the station,
Speaker 1: and you're placed in this situation, right, and you say yourself,
Speaker 1: I don't want to end up like Brendon, What do
Speaker 1: you do?
Speaker 2: I want h lawyer, that's what you say, right, I
Speaker 2: want a lawyer that stops the interrogation, or it should
Speaker 2: stop the interrogation. That's your constitutional right to say that.
Speaker 2: What's interesting, of course, you know the Miranda rights are
Speaker 2: read usually at the beginning of interrogations. Eighty five percent
Speaker 2: of people wave their Miranda rights, So I mean a
Speaker 2: huge number of people do right. We think of these
Speaker 2: as these important safeguards and everybody's out there asserting their
Speaker 2: rights to lawyers and their right to be silent and
Speaker 2: all these No, everybody waves these rights. And you know,
Speaker 2: we've all been in that situation right where you get
Speaker 2: pulled over and you think you can talk your way
Speaker 2: out of it. People wave these rights. They don't understand
Speaker 2: how these rights can help them, especially kids. Right, what
Speaker 2: does it mean to a kid? What does it mean
Speaker 2: to Brendan Dassy that he can have a lawyer in
Speaker 2: the room, that his admissions will be used against him
Speaker 2: in court. He doesn't know what a lawyer does. He
Speaker 2: doesn't understand the ways in which a lawyer could help
Speaker 2: him or improve his situation or stop this from happening
Speaker 2: to him. But yeah, huge numbers of people wave those rights.
Speaker 2: And it's actually the numbers are even greater when we're
Speaker 2: talking about innocent people.
Speaker 1: Sure, right, because you figure I go home.
Speaker 2: Right, nothing to hid, of course, I'll talk to you, right.
Speaker 1: And you may also be sitting there thinking, well, if
Speaker 1: it's going to take a long time for lawyer to
Speaker 1: get here, wait, I have things to do.
Speaker 2: Let me just clear this up. No problem, No, I'll
Speaker 2: be out of here.
Speaker 1: No, No, we're begging you. This is Jason and Laura
Speaker 1: personally begging you you're in that situation. There's only four
Speaker 1: words you need, I want a lawyer.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: Part of the process that landed Brendan in this situation,
Speaker 1: which was his own team Leninski, Can you tell us
Speaker 1: what that was like? I mean, being represented by this guide.
Speaker 3: When I first met him, I knew that he didn't
Speaker 3: have my best interest in in mind because he was
Speaker 3: always trying to get me to take a plea deal
Speaker 3: or something.
Speaker 1: So you knew right away. Yeah, Brendan, that a lot
Speaker 1: of credit you because you know, many people might not
Speaker 1: have picked up on that so quickly, because people go
Speaker 1: into that situation they think, well, this is my lawyer.
Speaker 1: He's going to be protecting me and defending me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you knew right away. But then as things progressed,
Speaker 1: I mean, did you feel betrayed or did you feel
Speaker 1: hopeful that maybe he was going to turn it around
Speaker 1: and actually do his job.
Speaker 3: No, especially since that when I saw him on TV
Speaker 3: with Nancy Grace, you know, and he more or less
Speaker 3: told her that he believes that I'm guilty.
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, there's a lot of things wrong with that
Speaker 1: whole scenario. I mean, did you mentioned that named Nancy
Speaker 1: Grace and you know my skin crawls and that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the fact that he went on there with her is horrible.
Speaker 1: And then you had this investigator who was supposed to
Speaker 1: be helping you. Yeah, and can you talk about that
Speaker 1: a little bit.
Speaker 3: What do you want to know?
Speaker 1: Well, when he was asking you to draw pictures and
Speaker 1: all these other things, and he was sort of badgering you,
Speaker 1: like Brendan, you did this? Yeah, what about this investigator?
Speaker 3: At first I thought maybe he would try to help me,
Speaker 3: you know, but then when he was trying to get
Speaker 3: me to more or let's give another confession, you know,
Speaker 3: I knew right then and there that he wasn't at
Speaker 3: my side either.
Speaker 1: So basically, you had your family and that was pretty
Speaker 1: much it. But they're not lawyers and they're not investigators.
Speaker 1: They're just just regular people. Right. Yeah, how did being
Speaker 1: represented or misrepresented by len and the things that he did,
Speaker 1: how did that make you feel?
Speaker 3: It made me feel betrayed and that I couldn't really
Speaker 3: trust lawyers either, But now I can.
Speaker 1: What an insane set of twists and turns.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've represented Brendon Dassi through the state court appeal
Speaker 2: system where that the state courts in Wisconsin were not
Speaker 2: particularly bothered by what they saw on that interrogation video,
Speaker 2: but we sort of expected that, and then we took
Speaker 2: his case. As people who watched Making a Murderer will remember,
Speaker 2: we took his case to the federal court system. Right.
Speaker 2: The way this basically works is you can go to
Speaker 2: federal court and you can say, hey, federal court, will
Speaker 2: you review the way in which the Wisconsin state courts
Speaker 2: protected Brendan's rights. So that's what we did. We went
Speaker 2: to the federal courts. We filed what's called a petition
Speaker 2: for a writ of habeas corpus, asking the federal court
Speaker 2: to take a look at how the state courts handled
Speaker 2: Brendan's case. But there is a trick here. Okay, So
Speaker 2: let's say you go into federal court and you proved
Speaker 2: to them beyond the shadow of a doubt right that
Speaker 2: the state court was wrong in how it handled Brendan's case,
Speaker 2: you lose. In order to win in federal court, you
Speaker 2: have to prove not only that the state court was
Speaker 2: wrong in how it handled Brendan's case, but that it
Speaker 2: was so unreasonably wrong that no other judge in America
Speaker 2: could possibly have ruled the same way. Right, that's literally
Speaker 2: the legal standard thanks to the Anti Terrorism and Effective
Speaker 2: Death Penalty Act signed into law in nineteen ninety six,
Speaker 2: which keeps you know, a lot of innocent prisoners like
Speaker 2: Brendan Dacy from accessing this kind of relief in the
Speaker 2: federal courts. So that's the needle that you have to
Speaker 2: thread in federal court. So we filed our petition, you know,
Speaker 2: we made these arguments, yes, this is that's not just wrong,
Speaker 2: it's unreasonably wrong. No one else would rule this way,
Speaker 2: and we sat and waited months and months and months
Speaker 2: for a decision, and we got our decision. You know,
Speaker 2: we'd won after years of representing Brendan, we'd won in
Speaker 2: the federal district court, you know, which was a moment
Speaker 2: of enormous joy, as you can imagine. But we knew,
Speaker 2: because we've pushed the boulder up the hill a lot
Speaker 2: of times before, we knew that that was just round one,
Speaker 2: that the state had every right to appeal, that it
Speaker 2: was going to appeal this case. And it did.
Speaker 1: Even that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2: That's right. And so when we found out that they
Speaker 2: were going to appeal, we said, you know what, that is.
Speaker 2: You're right, we can't stop you from doing that. But
Speaker 2: we want Brendan out, right, we want him home. This
Speaker 2: is right around Thanksgiving. We want him home for the
Speaker 2: holidays while you guys do your thing. So we asked
Speaker 2: the court to release Brendan during the appeals and we
Speaker 2: made all of our arguments. Here's where he's going to
Speaker 2: go live. He's going to be in a protected environment.
Speaker 2: We have a social worker on the space, you know,
Speaker 2: working on the case, identifying resources supports for him outside.
Speaker 2: And the court said, okay, yeah, let's let Brendan go home. Right,
Speaker 2: He's not a danger to this community. I believe in him.
Speaker 2: I can see it's going to be fine, So let's
Speaker 2: release him. And we had an order directing the State
Speaker 2: of Wisconsin to release Brendan Dassy and came within about
Speaker 2: twelve hours of getting Brendan out before the State of
Speaker 2: Wisconsin asked the appeals court to block that order and
Speaker 2: they did. So, you know, okay, we go forward with
Speaker 2: the appeal. The state files its briefs, we file our briefs,
Speaker 2: we argue it out in court before the appeals court,
Speaker 2: the federal appeals courts, and again, right we're trying to
Speaker 2: thread the eye of the needle. Here we wait and
Speaker 2: wait and wait for our verdict, for our decision, and
Speaker 2: we'd won again right two to one. If this is
Speaker 2: in front of three judges, we'd won two to one,
Speaker 2: which is another moment of great joy in celebration. Two
Speaker 2: to one. I'll take it. Except please notice that as
Speaker 2: we studied this decision was two to one decision, there
Speaker 2: was suddenly another judge in America who would have ruled
Speaker 2: to keep Brendon Dacy still in prison. Right. And the
Speaker 2: more we read that dissenting judge's opinion, we realized that
Speaker 2: it read like an open invitation for the state of
Speaker 2: Wisconsin to try this very rare legal maneuver, a rehearing
Speaker 2: en bank where you throw out the appeal and redo
Speaker 2: it in front of the full court. And that's exactly
Speaker 2: what they did. We argued that case and lost by
Speaker 2: a single vote, four to three. Steve and I are
Speaker 2: not done fighting for Brendan, and the world isn't either,
Speaker 2: and wisconsinights aren't either. Right, So today we have filed
Speaker 2: a petition with the Governor of Wisconsin asking that he
Speaker 2: grant Brendan clemency, that he release Brendan Dacy from prison.
Speaker 2: He's the only person in the world with the power
Speaker 2: to do that. Governor Tony Evers. We hear so much
Speaker 2: from people in state, out of state, right, people from
Speaker 2: all over all four corners of Wisconsin, Madison, Milwaukee, but
Speaker 2: up in Superior, up in Green Bay, out in Eau Claire, right, Lacrosse.
Speaker 2: I get these messages constantly from people who who just
Speaker 2: think it's time for Brennan to come home. You know,
Speaker 2: it's pastime, and we know we're honored to be in
Speaker 2: a position where we can hopefully show the governor it's
Speaker 2: the right time to do this.
Speaker 1: Yes, And the goodness is that, by all accounts, this
Speaker 1: governor is a reasonable man. He's had experience. He's visited
Speaker 1: a juvenile detention facilities one of the first things he did.
Speaker 2: That, that's right, he did. And he comes from the
Speaker 2: education system. You know, he was the head of the
Speaker 2: Wisconsin Board of Education before he assumed the governor's office.
Speaker 2: So this is somebody who understands. You know, Brendan was
Speaker 2: a tenth grader in the public school special education system. Right,
Speaker 2: That's who he was. In many ways, it's still who
Speaker 2: he is.
Speaker 1: Brendan. You know, one of the things I was personally
Speaker 1: so struck by was when we spoke yesterday about your
Speaker 1: dreams for after you get out and what you want
Speaker 1: to do in the world. Do you mind sort of
Speaker 1: talking about that a little bit.
Speaker 3: I mean, like getting into making and playing video games.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, yeah, and hopefully getting paid for it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We always I think it was Laura that asked you
Speaker 1: if you had a superpower, what would That's right.
Speaker 2: That's always one of my favorite questions to ask Brendon.
Speaker 3: I would want to have the power to heal illnesses
Speaker 3: and diseases all over the world.
Speaker 1: And where do you think that comes from? Like, I mean,
Speaker 1: it's a great superpower. I'd like to have it too.
Speaker 1: But of all the things, why do you think that
Speaker 1: one is the one that came to your mind?
Speaker 3: Well, I just like helping people, so I wanted to
Speaker 3: help other people in the world.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, there's a lot of people that want
Speaker 1: to help you too, and it's amazing. We talked about
Speaker 1: yesterday how many letters you get. Do you figure you've
Speaker 1: gotten letters from every state in the country by now,
Speaker 1: all fifty states?
Speaker 3: It's got to be close.
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 2: You know, Brendan, why don't you tell them Some of
Speaker 2: the countries that people have sent you letters from. Do
Speaker 2: you remember some of the.
Speaker 4: Countries Singapore, England, Ireland, Iceland, South America, Canada, Hawaii, New
Speaker 4: Zealand too, Yeah, in Australia, right, Australia, it's.
Speaker 2: Amazing, and also some from Wisconsin. Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. So there's tens of millions of people
Speaker 1: now all over the world, as you know, who have
Speaker 1: watched Making a Murderer have learned about your story. Do
Speaker 1: you want to see the show when you get out?
Speaker 1: Are you interested?
Speaker 3: I might eat? I don't know if I can.
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, you made it might be hard to watch, Yeah.
Speaker 3: You know, more or less because I lived it, So
Speaker 3: why would I want to watch it again?
Speaker 1: Really understandable after everything you've been through and all the
Speaker 1: twists and turns and the freedom being sort of, you know,
Speaker 1: yanked away from you twice? Really? Yeah, what was that?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Your bags were packed, right, You're ready to go home,
Speaker 1: and then they pulled the rug out from under you.
Speaker 1: I mean I would think that would make somebody crazy. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I was a little depressed, you know, and called my
Speaker 3: mom that night, and you know, I was I was upset.
Speaker 3: You know, and so she was she you know, she
Speaker 3: thought I was going to be coming home, you know,
Speaker 3: and I was willing to give up all my stuff,
Speaker 3: you know, just walk out the doors with nothing, right.
Speaker 1: So you were going to give it to some of
Speaker 1: the other guys in there.
Speaker 3: Or either that or or just tell all the prison
Speaker 3: that they can keep it.
Speaker 1: Right, Well, you weren't going to need it anymore.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what helps you sort of get through this, Brendon?
Speaker 2: As this was all happening to you, Where did you
Speaker 2: find your strength?
Speaker 3: Mostly having my family support me and have my back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially your mom, right, Yeah, today's visiting.
Speaker 3: Day, right, Yeah, I'll be getting a visit from my
Speaker 3: mom tonight. It means everything, you know. They have a
Speaker 3: family that loves and supports me no matter what, and
Speaker 3: they always have my back.
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, And it's really is heartening to know
Speaker 1: that so many people care and still care. And what
Speaker 1: would you tell people that want to get involved that
Speaker 1: have seen your story didn't really have it any idea
Speaker 1: of what goes on in our justice system, but now
Speaker 1: they do. Is there anything particular that you could advise someone?
Speaker 3: Just keep fighting for me and keep showing your love
Speaker 3: and support.
Speaker 1: And then There's a lot of ways to do that,
Speaker 1: and going to Innocence Project dot org is a good
Speaker 1: place to start, Laura, Are there other places people can
Speaker 1: go to learn more about this case and follow your
Speaker 1: progress and the progress and getting Brendan home.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Folks can go to CWCY dot org. That's the
Speaker 2: Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth. You can learn a
Speaker 2: lot more about Brendan's case, read as legal papers, and
Speaker 2: follow developments as they happen.
Speaker 1: And do you have social media yourself that we can
Speaker 1: tag you in here because we want to have people
Speaker 1: follow you and your progress, not only on Brendan's case,
Speaker 1: but also on all the other amazing work that you're doing.
Speaker 1: I do, I do.
Speaker 2: I'm on Instagram and Twitter, both at Laura and I writer.
Speaker 1: That's easy that it's at Laura and I wrider.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 1: And now, as regular listeners of the show know, it's
Speaker 1: time for the best part of the show, closing arguments,
Speaker 1: where I get to just kick back in my chair
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off. First of all, thank you again
Speaker 1: for taking the time to share your thoughts and your
Speaker 1: perspective and your spirit with me and with our audience,
Speaker 1: And of course thank you, Laura for arranging this and
Speaker 1: for being such a passionate, dedicated, obsessive justice fighter, and
Speaker 1: for being on the show. So Laura, first, thank you
Speaker 1: for being here.
Speaker 2: Thanks for giving this opportunity to let the world hear
Speaker 2: who Brendan Nasy is. You know, there have been so
Speaker 2: many people out there who watched Making a Murderer and
Speaker 2: were moved disturbed by Brendan's story, and who've reached out
Speaker 2: to us to ask what they can do to help Brendan.
Speaker 2: There's something really easy you can do. Maybe this upcoming weekend,
Speaker 2: you find yourself the extra ten mons minutes a time,
Speaker 2: think about sending him a letter.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: These letters don't have to be long, they don't have
Speaker 2: to be powerful, but just tell him, you know, keep
Speaker 2: your head high. I believe in you. Right, we're fighting
Speaker 2: for you. It'll happen for you. These letters are such
Speaker 2: a small gesture on the part of every one of us,
Speaker 2: but they sustain him, right. They give him hope every day,
Speaker 2: and that gives us the hope we need to keep
Speaker 2: on fighting. So find his address on the Wisconsin Department
Speaker 2: of Corrections website. He's in the Oshkosh Correctional Institution. Reach
Speaker 2: out to him, let him know he's got friends all
Speaker 2: over the world who believe in him. If you want
Speaker 2: to get involved in other ways, you can do that.
Speaker 2: You can educate yourself. There are a lot of other books, films,
Speaker 2: TV shows about wrongful conviction. Brendan is not the only one.
Speaker 2: Get out there. Watch when they see us, Right, watch
Speaker 2: the Paradise Last series about the West Memphis three or
Speaker 2: West of Memphis. Watch Murder on a Sunday morning, right,
Speaker 2: watch the confession tapes. You can see incredible shows, read
Speaker 2: incredible books about this happening over and over, some of
Speaker 2: which we've mentioned today, and you can get out there.
Speaker 2: Of course, you can support organizations like the Center on
Speaker 2: Wrongful Convictions or the Innocence Project or a lot of
Speaker 2: other incredible organizations that do this work. But most importantly, right,
Speaker 2: don't stop saying Brendan Dacy's name. Get out there on
Speaker 2: social media, remember him, Keep insisting that the people with
Speaker 2: power in this system do justice for Brendan. Write letters
Speaker 2: to the governor of Wisconsin. Tell him what you see
Speaker 2: when you see Brendan on TV. Tell him what you
Speaker 2: hear when you hear Brendan on a podcast like this,
Speaker 2: Especially if you live in Wisconsin, tell him you want
Speaker 2: Brendan home. That's the difference that you can make. It's
Speaker 2: a huge difference. We rely on people like you to
Speaker 2: light the way, to show the path for doing the
Speaker 2: right thing here. So thank you to everybody who's written
Speaker 2: to Brendan. Keep doing it, keep showing your support. Let's
Speaker 2: get him home together.
Speaker 1: And Brendan, thank you again for you know, letting me
Speaker 1: come see you and for spending time on the air
Speaker 1: with us today. And now I get to leave it
Speaker 1: open for you to say whatever you want as we
Speaker 1: close the show.
Speaker 3: I don't know what to say. I love Pokemon and
Speaker 3: my favorite Pokemon is Mew. But there's a new one
Speaker 3: coming out called El Creamy that I really like, and
Speaker 3: hopefully I get to see some of the more new
Speaker 3: ones coming out pretty soon.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on
Speaker 1: Instagram at Bronful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast.
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one