WEBVTT - #096 Jason Flom and Laura Nirider with Brendan Dassey 0:00:02.080 --> 0:00:04.800 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flumm. You know 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:07.880 many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.360 the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story 0:00:11.400 --> 0:00:13.840 of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:17.880 the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard in Manitoac, Wisconsin. 0:00:18.239 --> 0:00:20.880 It starts off in nineteen eighty five, where Stephen Avery 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:24.079 was wrongfully convicted of a sexual assault, for which he 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:27.440 was exonerated eighteen years later when the DNA in the 0:00:27.520 --> 0:00:30.920 case was found to match another man and his alibis 0:00:31.200 --> 0:00:34.720 were proven to have been true all along. After his release, 0:00:34.760 --> 0:00:37.600 in two thousand and three, Avery filed a thirty six 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:41.640 million dollars civil suit against Manitoa County, Wisconsin and several 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:44.760 of its officials. Fast forward to two thousand and five, 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.680 Teresa Halback, a photographer known to have been photographing cars 0:00:48.720 --> 0:00:51.519 on the Avery property, went missing. The handling of the 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.080 investigation was quite controversial, to say the least, with issues 0:00:55.120 --> 0:00:58.520 of evidence tampering, not to mention the obvious conflict of 0:00:58.520 --> 0:01:02.200 interest in allowing Manitoa County to investigate the very same 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:06.560 man who was suing them for thirty six million dollars. However, 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:10.200 all of that aside, the most damning piece of evidence 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.560 came in the form of a false confession from Avery's nephew, 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:17.399 Brendan Dacy, a sixteen year old boy with no criminal 0:01:17.440 --> 0:01:23.319 record and serious mental challenges. Now, I'm honored to present 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:26.960 the exclusive, the one and only interview that Brendan has 0:01:27.040 --> 0:01:32.680 ever given to anyone joining us has Esteemed Appella, attorney 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.920 from the Center on Romful Convictions at Northwestern University, my 0:01:36.080 --> 0:01:45.120 friend Laura and nightrider. Laura was kind enough to pick 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.080 me up from the airport in Chicago and we drove 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.560 out to Oshkosh Correctional Facility for a pre interview behind 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:55.440 bars with Brendan. This left us with both time to 0:01:55.520 --> 0:02:01.160 talk and plenty to talk about. We have had a 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:04.080 very eventful last twenty four hours. 0:02:04.360 --> 0:02:06.160 Yeah, you know, it's been a trip I've done so 0:02:06.200 --> 0:02:10.840 many times for going on twelve years now, and you know, 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:12.960 it was a trip I hoped to never have to 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:15.400 make again. That it's a trip that you know what 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:17.720 we're going to keep on doing for as long as 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:20.200 we have to do. Right, go out there, support him, 0:02:20.240 --> 0:02:21.840 and I'm just glad you had a chance to see 0:02:21.960 --> 0:02:24.040 who Brendan is, you know, to really spend some time 0:02:24.040 --> 0:02:25.639 with him and get to know him, because he's a 0:02:26.000 --> 0:02:26.919 pretty incredible guy. 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:32.200 Brendan is a very powerful example of a phenomenon that 0:02:32.520 --> 0:02:35.519 amazes me and keeps me going and drives me onward 0:02:35.560 --> 0:02:40.120 in this fight, which is that there is an absolute 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:47.920 and total absence of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like 0:02:48.160 --> 0:02:50.239 I don't even think he knows what those emotions are. 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:53.440 He's an incredible guy. I mean, you know, he was 0:02:53.480 --> 0:02:56.520 sixteen when he went in. He's twenty nine years old now, 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.160 and during that whole period of time of knowing him, 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:03.320 You're right, I mean, Brendan is a sweet soul. You know, 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:06.000 he's a he's a simple guy. He's a funny guy. 0:03:06.080 --> 0:03:11.080 He's gentle. He's so gentle and kind. No, no, he's not. 0:03:11.160 --> 0:03:14.880 That's right, And in his story is one of extreme juxtaposition, right, 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:19.480 because he went from being a very childlike young person 0:03:19.639 --> 0:03:24.600 adolescent into a very extreme grown up situation. You got 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.160 involved with Brendan's case at what stage? 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:31.560 Well, let's start with Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case. 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.280 In two thousand and seven, about three months after Brendan 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.720 was convicted at his trial, Steve was asked to handle 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:43.800 Brendan's appeals going forward because of his expertise around interrogations 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:45.600 and confessions. 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:51.040 This is long. He was just another of the two 0:03:51.120 --> 0:03:53.760 point two million people in prison and right. 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:57.080 That's right the system and Steve took the case. Now 0:03:57.080 --> 0:03:59.040 this is two thousand and seven. Okay. So at the time, 0:03:59.200 --> 0:04:02.880 Steve was teaching here at Northwestern Law School, and I 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.200 was a third year law student in Steve's class on 0:04:06.240 --> 0:04:11.240 wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend to practice criminal law. 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:13.160 I actually had a career all mapped out for myself 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:14.920 as a business lawyer. I was going to go do that. 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:17.920 I had a job lined up after graduation. I knew 0:04:17.960 --> 0:04:20.960 nothing at a law from here in town, here in Chicago, 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:23.920 And you know, I knew nothing about the criminal justice system. 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.240 I knew nothing about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing 0:04:27.240 --> 0:04:30.640 about false confessions. But I'd signed up for Steve's class, 0:04:30.920 --> 0:04:33.160 you know, on a whim, try to do something off 0:04:33.160 --> 0:04:37.719 the beaten path. And a few months into that fall 0:04:37.800 --> 0:04:41.160 semester of my last year of law school, that's you know, 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:45.000 Steve called me into his office and he said, I've 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:49.080 just gotten involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:54.800 sixteen year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed to 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:58.880 a crime that I don't think he committed. And he 0:04:59.480 --> 0:05:04.360 handed me the interrogation videos from Brendan Dasy's case, right 0:05:04.400 --> 0:05:06.800 the same videos that years and years later ended up 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.599 in making a murder, And he told me to go 0:05:09.640 --> 0:05:11.400 watch them. So I went home, I sat down on 0:05:11.440 --> 0:05:13.159 my couch, I got out my laptop, because this is 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:15.880 two thousand and seven, I pop in these DVDs and 0:05:16.120 --> 0:05:18.800 I watched them all right from start to. 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:20.719 Finish, their confession tapes. 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:25.520 Yeah, and my heart broke and I knew that this 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:26.760 is it. This is what I had to do with, 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:31.480 you know, fight for people like Brendan. So, you know, 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.800 no more business law for me. I came back to 0:05:34.960 --> 0:05:38.280 Northwestern after graduating, and for the last twelve years I've 0:05:38.320 --> 0:05:40.880 been building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions, where 0:05:40.920 --> 0:05:44.000 we represent Brendan and other kids just like him. 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:46.760 So for the people who may not have seen making 0:05:46.760 --> 0:05:48.599 a Murder, and there are those who listen to our 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:50.560 show who haven't seen it yet, what was it, what 0:05:50.600 --> 0:05:53.400 was the moment? What was it about those tapes? 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:55.559 Yeah? It's a great question. You know, I actually remember 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:55.920 the moment. 0:05:56.000 --> 0:05:56.160 Right. 0:05:56.200 --> 0:05:59.480 It's so this is a videotape of the entire interrogation. 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:02.800 Right actually questioned four times over forty eight hours, and 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.080 it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession. 0:06:06.160 --> 0:06:07.920 You know, which I which I say in quotation marks. 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:12.440 But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right, 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.000 this is a murder case. So they want to ask 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.320 him about, you know, how was the victim in this case? 0:06:17.320 --> 0:06:18.760 How was Teresa Hallbach killed? 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:19.520 Right? 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:22.159 And And these police going into the interrogation, they know, 0:06:22.560 --> 0:06:24.960 or they think they know, based on their own investigation, 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:27.920 that she had been shot in the head. So they're 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:31.640 waiting for Brendan to describe shooting somebody in the head, right, 0:06:32.520 --> 0:06:35.039 So they ask him, you know, Brendan, how did you guys? 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:40.760 You know, how did you kill Teresa Hallbach? And he says, we. 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:42.080 Choked her her. 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.040 Well, that's that's not right. So they said him, Okay, 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:48.640 you know what else, Brendan, what else did you do 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:48.920 to her? 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.560 We know something else was done. We stabbed her. 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.359 Still not right, So they actually started not even close, 0:06:57.400 --> 0:06:59.800 so they start dropping him hints right, they say, come on, 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:02.000 bre and then something with the head, something with the head. 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:04.320 What else did you guys do to her? And Brendan says, 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:06.039 we punched. 0:07:05.760 --> 0:07:08.640 Her and that's still not right. 0:07:08.640 --> 0:07:12.160 So it's like Brendan's completely at sea and he says, 0:07:12.280 --> 0:07:16.800 you know, we caught off her hair and his voice 0:07:16.840 --> 0:07:21.040 goes up like that like he's asking a question and no, no, no, Brendan, 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:22.640 come on, what else? What else? Something with the head? 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:23.000 What else? 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:23.680 What else? 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:25.880 What else was done to her head? And this goes 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:27.320 on and on and on, and finally Brendan, you know, 0:07:27.360 --> 0:07:29.040 he must get exhausted, and he just says. 0:07:28.960 --> 0:07:30.040 That's what I can remember. 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:32.040 And uh. 0:07:32.280 --> 0:07:37.120 The officers at that point say to him, Brendan, I'm 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:38.760 just going to come out and ask you. 0:07:39.040 --> 0:07:40.560 All right, I'm just going to come out and ask 0:07:40.640 --> 0:07:41.520 him who. 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:42.080 Shot her in the hat? 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:45.840 And you know, Brendan says, well, that was that was 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:49.680 my uncle Stephen. And then, you know, comes one of 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:52.200 the most heartbreaking moments of the entire interrogation because they 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:54.360 say to him, Brendan, why didn't you just tell us that? 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:55.920 Why didn't you tell us that? 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:04.400 And he says, because I couldn't think of it. Right, 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:17.080 he was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:20.400 the way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say 0:08:20.440 --> 0:08:22.680 for a moment that the story was true, that this 0:08:22.760 --> 0:08:25.720 bloody attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:30.360 Brendan's confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:34.760 and that bed to be covered with forensic evidence blood 0:08:34.760 --> 0:08:38.800 from a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.520 hair was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:46.160 it is to clean up hair. And of course, after 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.280 Brendan gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen 0:08:49.280 --> 0:08:52.439 Avery's bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:56.520 the confession. They searched the bed, They searched the bedding, 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:01.400 the mattress, the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:05.160 the carpet underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:09.120 and looked underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling 0:09:09.320 --> 0:09:12.319 off the walls in the bedroom, searching for a single 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:19.160 molecule of Teresa Halbach's DNA or Brendan Dacy's DNA, and 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:25.880 they found nothing. This story didn't happen. It's made up. 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.800 The day after our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Correctional, 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:37.600 we did our formal interview with Brendan over the phone 0:09:37.760 --> 0:09:40.720 from Laura's office at Northwestern University. 0:09:41.840 --> 0:09:42.760 Tod Goud Correctional. 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:50.959 Lava, Hello, Hi, Brendan. 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:51.559 Hi. 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.440 It seems like only yesterday that I saw you, because 0:09:54.480 --> 0:09:57.480 it was only yesterday. Yeah, and it was great to 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.280 meet you. You know, Laura and I had a long 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:02.240 ride back to sh Chicago, and obviously we talked about 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.440 you a lot and things that we are hoping to 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:08.400 do to make a difference for you and with you, 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:18.119 I mean, well, wait for the announcement to go by. 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:21.520 You went through an ordeal that even those of us 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:24.280 that have seen the show and have seen on video 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.120 parts of what happened, obviously we couldn't see the whole thing, 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:30.120 but none of us can understand what it would be 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.960 like to be in your shoes, you know, to be 0:10:33.360 --> 0:10:37.959 in this impossible situation of being a really a child 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:42.320 at sixteen. You're still a child, You're not a grown man, yeah, 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:46.800 and to be going to this interrogation where you have 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:52.360 grown men who are interrogating you for days, without a parent, 0:10:52.440 --> 0:10:55.080 without a lawyer, without anyone to help you. I mean, 0:10:55.120 --> 0:10:57.960 were you scared or were you just thought maybe if 0:10:57.960 --> 0:10:59.880 you've just told the truth, everything would be fine. What 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:01.439 was your thought process at that. 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:04.720 Point, Well, I just wanted it all over with, so 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:07.080 I said whatever they wanted to hear. 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:11.520 You know, most people grow up as I did, with 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.839 believing that the law enforcement are out to help us, right, 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:17.720 there are people you call when you need help. Did 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:19.960 you have that same idea when you went in there? 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.959 Yeah, I thought maybe anything I can do to help them, 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:24.680 you know I would. 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.240 So was there a point when you were in that 0:11:29.440 --> 0:11:34.880 horrible room where you started to worry about the outcome, 0:11:35.000 --> 0:11:37.840 or that you thought that these men may have been 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.040 not as well intentioned as you originally thought. 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:47.120 Yeah. When they started saying that that I wasn't telling 0:11:47.160 --> 0:11:52.400 the truth and that my story didn't fit the fact 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:55.320 that they had, that's when I started getting worried. 0:11:56.960 --> 0:11:58.839 There's a very good reason your story didn't fit the fact, 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.280 because you didn't know the fact. Yeah, so, Brandon, you 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:05.520 remember there was a time when the interrogators left the 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:08.840 room for a few minutes and your mom came back 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:12.559 into the room. Yeah, beautiful life to say you. 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:16.720 Did you. 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:21.880 Huh, not really? 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:23.440 What do you mean? 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:24.040 Not really? 0:12:26.800 --> 0:12:33.800 Huh? 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:39.480 What do you mean by that? So? Was that the 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:41.880 first time you had seen your mom since they had 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:46.679 started interrogating you? Yeah, that is okay? So what was 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.760 it like to see her after being alone with those 0:12:48.800 --> 0:12:50.520 interrogators for such a long time? 0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:54.240 I felt that I could be safe and I could 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:56.200 tell her the truth. You know that they got into 0:12:56.200 --> 0:13:00.319 my head. They got me to say whatever they want it. 0:13:09.760 --> 0:13:15.480 Do you think either before, during, or after that, the 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:20.440 detectives conducting that interrogation knew or realized that he was 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:21.800 actually innocent. 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.680 You know, it's a very good question, and it's something 0:13:25.679 --> 0:13:29.600 I've asked myself right over and over again. This is 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:33.559 just my opinion, but I think that they were worried 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:37.000 that something had gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.800 box for about three and a half hours. He's adopted 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.080 their theories that he committed rape and murder and the 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:45.520 whole thing, and the story is over, it's done, it's locked, 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:47.440 and they let her into the room, and the cameras 0:13:47.440 --> 0:13:49.240 are still rolling in the room, right and they leave 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.640 the two of them alone. You know, it's my theory 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:55.960 that they were outside watching this all enclosed circuit camera, 0:13:56.080 --> 0:13:58.280 hoping that Brendan was going to make more admissions to 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:02.239 his mother. Instead, he recame one of the clearest recantations 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:05.560 I've ever heard, Right, Brendan using his own words, his 0:14:05.600 --> 0:14:09.320 own ability to express himself, to tell his mom what 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:12.400 he had just been through. They got to my head. 0:14:13.600 --> 0:14:19.800 And at that moment the officers come barging back through 0:14:20.120 --> 0:14:24.080 that door into the interrogation room, and Brendan doesn't say 0:14:24.120 --> 0:14:25.360 another word. 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.200 I'm getting the chills. I mean, as a parent, it's 0:14:29.280 --> 0:14:32.160 just so heartbreaking. And look, I always say, there are 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.520 a lot of very good people in our criminal justice system, 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:37.520 but the ones who do the types of things that 0:14:37.520 --> 0:14:39.560 were done to Brendan. I mean, there's a lot of 0:14:39.640 --> 0:14:41.000 villains in this story. 0:14:40.800 --> 0:14:42.680 Right, some unbelievable characters in the story. 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:47.920 Yeah, And so the system that was designed in theory 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:50.080 to protect the innocent and in this case, to protect 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:52.680 Brendon failed at every level. 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:53.200 Right. 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:55.720 I mean you're starting in the interrogation room, that's right. 0:14:55.640 --> 0:14:57.280 Starting with the fact that they targeted him in the 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.640 first place. I don't really understand. I mean, I have 0:14:59.680 --> 0:15:01.600 a theory in my own head about why they may 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:04.080 have done that. And maybe we'll never know, but it 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.240 seems like to me they wanted to build a stronger 0:15:06.280 --> 0:15:08.760 case against Stephen, no doubt about it, and so they 0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:10.680 went for the weakest lengthage, no doubt about it. Right, 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.640 They knew that small community, they knew that Brendan was 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:15.080 a simple person. 0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:16.640 Well, that's right. And you know, one of the things 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.480 about Brendan, of course, he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that. 0:15:19.600 --> 0:15:24.200 But his disabilities in particular are clustered around speech. The 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.320 way he speaks, the way he hears language, the way 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:29.880 he processes words, and the way he uses his own words. Right, 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.560 So you know, this is not a person who can 0:15:32.600 --> 0:15:36.520 sort of weave sophisticated stories or lies or things like that. 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.600 And of course these are disabilities that are at the 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:42.280 center of an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:44.920 of conversation talking about you know, what could happen to 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:47.720 him if he didn't confess because there was a threat 0:15:48.240 --> 0:15:50.080 in this case, what would happen to him if he 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:52.360 didn't start adopting the story that was being fed to him. 0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.120 What was going to happen. On the other hand, if 0:15:54.520 --> 0:15:57.480 he did agree to go along with the story, you know, 0:15:57.520 --> 0:16:00.440 this is a really hard situation for someone like brendan 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:04.480 sixteen special education student in Wisconsin public schools, the hard 0:16:04.520 --> 0:16:07.480 situation for him to navigate. He did the best he could. 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:09.200 For as long as he could, for as long as 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:09.520 he could. 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:13.560 Four times, over forty eight hours, these officers questioned him. 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:15.560 And they should have been a first round knockout. 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.160 Oh my god, he held up as long as he could. 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:22.680 You've been investigating a lot. 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:26.760 We already know what happened. To be a lot easier 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:29.160 on you it that's going to be wrong. 0:16:29.320 --> 0:16:34.240 I'm your friend, but the honest person you get a 0:16:34.280 --> 0:16:34.680 better deal. 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:36.320 We're going to believe on that work. 0:16:36.680 --> 0:16:37.400 I don't believe in. 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:40.240 You're archaical. You can't make any propis, but we'll stand 0:16:40.240 --> 0:16:40.800 behind you. 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:42.920 Your mom said you'd be honest with She's behind you. 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:44.360 Know what happened. 0:16:44.640 --> 0:16:46.800 She thinks you don't want to do and you're more foreigner. 0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:48.520 We already know what happened on to us. 0:16:48.560 --> 0:16:58.320 Exactly what would you tell people when they're sitting in 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:04.840 that jury box and they're to incredible testimony videotapes. Yes, 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:07.720 I'm someone going yeah, I did it. Yeah, So what 0:17:07.720 --> 0:17:09.680 should people watch? Because some confessions are true. 0:17:09.760 --> 0:17:11.480 Of course, some confessions are true. Those are the ones 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:13.200 we want, right, it's you know, we got to screen 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:14.080 out the false confessions. 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:14.919 What do they look for? 0:17:15.400 --> 0:17:18.520 Okay? So the big message, right, A confession is just 0:17:18.840 --> 0:17:22.920 a piece of evidence, like any other piece of evidence. Right, 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.159 Sometimes it can be misleading, and you question it and 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:28.000 you examine it in the same way that you'd ask 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.040 you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about any other piece 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.119 of evidence. Right, can I trust what this person is saying? 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.080 So when you see a confession like Brendan Darcy's, where 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:42.240 somebody is getting the facts of the crime wrong unless 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:46.280 they're being told the right answer, that's a red flag. Right. 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:50.000 It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation, details large and small. He 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:54.040 can't come up with. He's guessing, and he guesses wrong, actually, 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.359 until he gets strained out by the officers. Not just 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:59.240 about how Teresa Holbach was killed, but he he can't 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.280 decide if if for shirt was black or white? Right, 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:04.520 he doesn't know what the right answer is. Has he 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.440 never met her because he never saw her, that's right. 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:08.880 He can't decide if the fire was started at three 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:11.480 pm or later on in the evening after dark, right, 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.920 I mean he doesn't know these things. He's just guessing 0:18:14.960 --> 0:18:17.639 all over the place. And you see this repeatedly throughout 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.280 false confession cases, because what you have in those cases 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:22.280 are people who had nothing to do with the crime 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:26.400 trying to say something that sounds believable to satisfy their interrogators. 0:18:26.680 --> 0:18:29.320 Almost everybody I've ever met says the same thing. I 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:33.360 am not that guy. I'm smart, I'm capable, I'm strong. 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:35.320 I'm not confessing to crime and then commitment. 0:18:35.520 --> 0:18:37.719 Everybody thinks this, right, Well, that's for other people, right, 0:18:37.760 --> 0:18:40.720 That's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people, that's for 0:18:40.800 --> 0:18:43.440 children maybe. So what you have to understand is that 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:47.679 interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological tactics that 0:18:47.760 --> 0:18:51.000 are designed to get people off their belief in their 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.600 own innocence and designed to actually make them believe that 0:18:54.640 --> 0:18:57.919 it will help them, that it will improve their situation, 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.240 that it will benefit them to say they did these 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:06.280 things that the officers think. Right, these are incredibly powerful techniques, 0:19:06.320 --> 0:19:09.119 and every single one of us has a breaking point, 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:14.040 and these techniques are designed to find it. So how 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:14.520 does this work? 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:14.719 Right? 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:18.600 So the way this basically works. Interrogation is generally a 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:22.159 two stage process. The first half is all about confrontation 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.520 and reducing you down to hopelessness. Right, we know you 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:28.800 did this. I've got so much evidence against you. No 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.320 one is gonna believe you when you say you're innocent. Right, 0:19:31.359 --> 0:19:33.280 I've got three people in the room next door who 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:35.639 picked you out of a lineup. I've got your DNA 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:37.640 on the scene, I've got your fingerprints on the gun. 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:39.720 Even if none of that is true. By the way, 0:19:40.760 --> 0:19:42.520 it's perfectly legal for police to lie. 0:19:42.720 --> 0:19:43.240 That's right. 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:46.080 Not the UK, that's right, but here it's perfectly legal 0:19:46.400 --> 0:19:49.200 for the police to lie during interrogations. So they bring 0:19:49.200 --> 0:19:51.040 you down to hopelessness. Right, I'm not going to listen 0:19:51.080 --> 0:19:53.119 to you say you're innocent. You're just making it worse 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.440 off for yourself. No one's gonna believe you. You're caught, you're trapped, 0:19:56.600 --> 0:20:00.639 you're screwed, You've got nothing. And when you reach that 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:05.680 point of hopelessness, that's when they offer you an out 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:11.560 right a life raft confession. It's going to help you. 0:20:12.480 --> 0:20:15.399 If you confess, you will go easy on you. You know, 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:17.440 I'll go talk to the judge. Right, I'll see what 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:19.119 I can do for you. Things are going to be 0:20:19.200 --> 0:20:21.119 so much better for you. You've got a whole life 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:23.600 to live in front of you. You're just a kid. 0:20:23.640 --> 0:20:26.520 People are going to understand that over and over. But 0:20:26.600 --> 0:20:29.000 I need to hear the story from you, right, People 0:20:29.040 --> 0:20:31.959 are going to understand that you deserve help if you cooperate. 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:35.920 That's how it works, right. These techniques are incredibly good 0:20:36.840 --> 0:20:41.879 at getting true confessions, but they are so potent that 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:43.320 they also get false confessions. 0:20:43.359 --> 0:20:46.439 And this actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is 0:20:46.440 --> 0:20:49.000 where this was originated, right, the read technique. 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:51.600 The read technique actually even better than that. It's originated 0:20:51.600 --> 0:20:53.560 here out of the work of a professor at Northwestern 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.960 Law School. Oh my god, back in the nineteen forties. Right, 0:20:56.000 --> 0:21:00.400 So before these are that's right, before these psychological techniques 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:03.800 were developed, interrogations were physical, right the third degree. People 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:06.520 were beaten or hung out of windows. Right, this is 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:10.040 how it was done. And in the forties, these people 0:21:10.040 --> 0:21:12.879 who at the time were thought of as progressive reformers 0:21:12.920 --> 0:21:14.960 come along and say, you know what, let's stop physically 0:21:14.960 --> 0:21:19.080 abusing people. Let's do the psychological techniques instead. Those techniques 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:22.520 that were developed here at Northwestern here in Chicago back 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:26.360 in the nineteen forties, are still being used today. Talk 0:21:26.400 --> 0:21:31.160