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Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flumm. You know

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Speaker 1: many of our listeners. Most of our listeners have seen

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Speaker 1: the Netflix original series Making a Murderer. It's the story

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Speaker 1: of Stephen Avery, a guy from the wrong side of

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Speaker 1: the tracks whose family owned an auto salvage yard in Manitoac, Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: It starts off in nineteen eighty five, where Stephen Avery

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Speaker 1: was wrongfully convicted of a sexual assault, for which he

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Speaker 1: was exonerated eighteen years later when the DNA in the

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Speaker 1: case was found to match another man and his alibis

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Speaker 1: were proven to have been true all along. After his release,

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Speaker 1: in two thousand and three, Avery filed a thirty six

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Speaker 1: million dollars civil suit against Manitoa County, Wisconsin and several

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Speaker 1: of its officials. Fast forward to two thousand and five,

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Speaker 1: Teresa Halback, a photographer known to have been photographing cars

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Speaker 1: on the Avery property, went missing. The handling of the

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Speaker 1: investigation was quite controversial, to say the least, with issues

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Speaker 1: of evidence tampering, not to mention the obvious conflict of

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Speaker 1: interest in allowing Manitoa County to investigate the very same

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Speaker 1: man who was suing them for thirty six million dollars. However,

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Speaker 1: all of that aside, the most damning piece of evidence

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Speaker 1: came in the form of a false confession from Avery's nephew,

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Speaker 1: Brendan Dacy, a sixteen year old boy with no criminal

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Speaker 1: record and serious mental challenges. Now, I'm honored to present

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Speaker 1: the exclusive, the one and only interview that Brendan has

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Speaker 1: ever given to anyone joining us has Esteemed Appella, attorney

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Speaker 1: from the Center on Romful Convictions at Northwestern University, my

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Speaker 1: friend Laura and nightrider. Laura was kind enough to pick

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Speaker 1: me up from the airport in Chicago and we drove

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Speaker 1: out to Oshkosh Correctional Facility for a pre interview behind

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Speaker 1: bars with Brendan. This left us with both time to

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Speaker 1: talk and plenty to talk about. We have had a

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Speaker 1: very eventful last twenty four hours.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's been a trip I've done so

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Speaker 2: many times for going on twelve years now, and you know,

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Speaker 2: it was a trip I hoped to never have to

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Speaker 2: make again. That it's a trip that you know what

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Speaker 2: we're going to keep on doing for as long as

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Speaker 2: we have to do. Right, go out there, support him,

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Speaker 2: and I'm just glad you had a chance to see

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Speaker 2: who Brendan is, you know, to really spend some time

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Speaker 2: with him and get to know him, because he's a

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Speaker 2: pretty incredible guy.

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Speaker 1: Brendan is a very powerful example of a phenomenon that

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Speaker 1: amazes me and keeps me going and drives me onward

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Speaker 1: in this fight, which is that there is an absolute

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Speaker 1: and total absence of malice, anger, bitterness, self pity. Like

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Speaker 1: I don't even think he knows what those emotions are.

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Speaker 2: He's an incredible guy. I mean, you know, he was

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Speaker 2: sixteen when he went in. He's twenty nine years old now,

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Speaker 2: and during that whole period of time of knowing him,

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Speaker 2: You're right, I mean, Brendan is a sweet soul. You know,

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Speaker 2: he's a he's a simple guy. He's a funny guy.

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Speaker 2: He's gentle. He's so gentle and kind. No, no, he's not.

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Speaker 1: That's right, And in his story is one of extreme juxtaposition, right,

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Speaker 1: because he went from being a very childlike young person

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Speaker 1: adolescent into a very extreme grown up situation. You got

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Speaker 1: involved with Brendan's case at what stage?

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Speaker 2: Well, let's start with Steve Drisen, my colleague on the case.

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Speaker 2: In two thousand and seven, about three months after Brendan

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Speaker 2: was convicted at his trial, Steve was asked to handle

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Speaker 2: Brendan's appeals going forward because of his expertise around interrogations

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Speaker 2: and confessions.

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Speaker 1: This is long. He was just another of the two

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Speaker 1: point two million people in prison and right.

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Speaker 2: That's right the system and Steve took the case. Now

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Speaker 2: this is two thousand and seven. Okay. So at the time,

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Speaker 2: Steve was teaching here at Northwestern Law School, and I

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Speaker 2: was a third year law student in Steve's class on

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Speaker 2: wrongful convictions. Now, I didn't intend to practice criminal law.

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Speaker 2: I actually had a career all mapped out for myself

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Speaker 2: as a business lawyer. I was going to go do that.

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Speaker 2: I had a job lined up after graduation. I knew

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Speaker 2: nothing at a law from here in town, here in Chicago,

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Speaker 2: And you know, I knew nothing about the criminal justice system.

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Speaker 2: I knew nothing about wrongful convictions. I definitely knew nothing

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Speaker 2: about false confessions. But I'd signed up for Steve's class,

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Speaker 2: you know, on a whim, try to do something off

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Speaker 2: the beaten path. And a few months into that fall

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Speaker 2: semester of my last year of law school, that's you know,

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Speaker 2: Steve called me into his office and he said, I've

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Speaker 2: just gotten involved in a case from Wisconsin involving a

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Speaker 2: sixteen year old boy with intellectual limitations who confessed to

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Speaker 2: a crime that I don't think he committed. And he

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Speaker 2: handed me the interrogation videos from Brendan Dasy's case, right

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Speaker 2: the same videos that years and years later ended up

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Speaker 2: in making a murder, And he told me to go

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Speaker 2: watch them. So I went home, I sat down on

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Speaker 2: my couch, I got out my laptop, because this is

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven, I pop in these DVDs and

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Speaker 2: I watched them all right from start to.

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Speaker 1: Finish, their confession tapes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and my heart broke and I knew that this

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Speaker 2: is it. This is what I had to do with,

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Speaker 2: you know, fight for people like Brendan. So, you know,

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Speaker 2: no more business law for me. I came back to

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Speaker 2: Northwestern after graduating, and for the last twelve years I've

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Speaker 2: been building with Steve the Center on Wrongful Convictions, where

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Speaker 2: we represent Brendan and other kids just like him.

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Speaker 1: So for the people who may not have seen making

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Speaker 1: a Murder, and there are those who listen to our

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Speaker 1: show who haven't seen it yet, what was it, what

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Speaker 1: was the moment? What was it about those tapes?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? It's a great question. You know, I actually remember

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Speaker 2: the moment.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: It's so this is a videotape of the entire interrogation.

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Speaker 2: Right actually questioned four times over forty eight hours, and

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Speaker 2: it was only the last interrogation that produced the confession.

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Speaker 2: You know, which I which I say in quotation marks.

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Speaker 2: But this is an interrogation where they're asking Brendan about murder. Right,

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Speaker 2: this is a murder case. So they want to ask

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Speaker 2: him about, you know, how was the victim in this case?

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Speaker 2: How was Teresa Hallbach killed?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: And And these police going into the interrogation, they know,

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Speaker 2: or they think they know, based on their own investigation,

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Speaker 2: that she had been shot in the head. So they're

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Speaker 2: waiting for Brendan to describe shooting somebody in the head, right,

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Speaker 2: So they ask him, you know, Brendan, how did you guys?

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Speaker 2: You know, how did you kill Teresa Hallbach? And he says, we.

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Speaker 3: Choked her her.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's that's not right. So they said him, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you know what else, Brendan, what else did you do

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Speaker 2: to her?

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Speaker 3: We know something else was done. We stabbed her.

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Speaker 2: Still not right, So they actually started not even close,

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Speaker 2: so they start dropping him hints right, they say, come on,

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Speaker 2: bre and then something with the head, something with the head.

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Speaker 2: What else did you guys do to her? And Brendan says,

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Speaker 2: we punched.

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Speaker 4: Her and that's still not right.

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Speaker 2: So it's like Brendan's completely at sea and he says,

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Speaker 2: you know, we caught off her hair and his voice

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Speaker 2: goes up like that like he's asking a question and no, no, no, Brendan,

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Speaker 2: come on, what else? What else? Something with the head?

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Speaker 2: What else?

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Speaker 3: What else?

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Speaker 2: What else was done to her head? And this goes

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Speaker 2: on and on and on, and finally Brendan, you know,

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Speaker 2: he must get exhausted, and he just says.

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Speaker 3: That's what I can remember.

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Speaker 1: And uh.

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Speaker 2: The officers at that point say to him, Brendan, I'm

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Speaker 2: just going to come out and ask you.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'm just going to come out and ask

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Speaker 1: him who.

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Speaker 3: Shot her in the hat?

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Speaker 2: And you know, Brendan says, well, that was that was

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Speaker 2: my uncle Stephen. And then, you know, comes one of

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Speaker 2: the most heartbreaking moments of the entire interrogation because they

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Speaker 2: say to him, Brendan, why didn't you just tell us that?

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Speaker 3: Why didn't you tell us that?

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Speaker 2: And he says, because I couldn't think of it. Right,

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Speaker 2: he was guessing. Yeah, So let's say you're not convinced

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Speaker 2: the way I am that Brendan was guessing. Let's say

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Speaker 2: for a moment that the story was true, that this

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Speaker 2: bloody attack occurred in Stephen Avery's bedroom the way that

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Speaker 2: Brendan's confession claimed that it did. You'd expect that bedroom

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Speaker 2: and that bed to be covered with forensic evidence blood

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Speaker 2: from a stabbing and throat cutting, hair from when her

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Speaker 2: hair was supposedly cut. I mean, think about how hard

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Speaker 2: it is to clean up hair. And of course, after

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Speaker 2: Brendan gave his confession, the police went back to Stephen

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Speaker 2: Avery's bedroom and they searched it for evidence to corroborate

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Speaker 2: the confession. They searched the bed, They searched the bedding,

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Speaker 2: the mattress, the headboard, the bed frame. They looked at

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Speaker 2: the carpet underneath the bed. They pulled that carpet back

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Speaker 2: and looked underneath the carpet. They even took the paneling

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Speaker 2: off the walls in the bedroom, searching for a single

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Speaker 2: molecule of Teresa Halbach's DNA or Brendan Dacy's DNA, and

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Speaker 2: they found nothing. This story didn't happen. It's made up.

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Speaker 1: The day after our face to face meeting at Oshkosh Correctional,

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Speaker 1: we did our formal interview with Brendan over the phone

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Speaker 1: from Laura's office at Northwestern University.

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Speaker 3: Tod Goud Correctional.

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Speaker 1: Lava, Hello, Hi, Brendan.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 1: It seems like only yesterday that I saw you, because

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Speaker 1: it was only yesterday. Yeah, and it was great to

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Speaker 1: meet you. You know, Laura and I had a long

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Speaker 1: ride back to sh Chicago, and obviously we talked about

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Speaker 1: you a lot and things that we are hoping to

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Speaker 1: do to make a difference for you and with you,

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Speaker 1: I mean, well, wait for the announcement to go by.

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Speaker 1: You went through an ordeal that even those of us

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Speaker 1: that have seen the show and have seen on video

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Speaker 1: parts of what happened, obviously we couldn't see the whole thing,

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Speaker 1: but none of us can understand what it would be

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Speaker 1: like to be in your shoes, you know, to be

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Speaker 1: in this impossible situation of being a really a child

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Speaker 1: at sixteen. You're still a child, You're not a grown man, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and to be going to this interrogation where you have

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Speaker 1: grown men who are interrogating you for days, without a parent,

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Speaker 1: without a lawyer, without anyone to help you. I mean,

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Speaker 1: were you scared or were you just thought maybe if

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Speaker 1: you've just told the truth, everything would be fine. What

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Speaker 1: was your thought process at that.

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Speaker 3: Point, Well, I just wanted it all over with, so

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Speaker 3: I said whatever they wanted to hear.

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Speaker 1: You know, most people grow up as I did, with

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Speaker 1: believing that the law enforcement are out to help us, right,

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Speaker 1: there are people you call when you need help. Did

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Speaker 1: you have that same idea when you went in there?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought maybe anything I can do to help them,

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Speaker 3: you know I would.

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Speaker 1: So was there a point when you were in that

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Speaker 1: horrible room where you started to worry about the outcome,

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Speaker 1: or that you thought that these men may have been

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Speaker 1: not as well intentioned as you originally thought.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. When they started saying that that I wasn't telling

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Speaker 3: the truth and that my story didn't fit the fact

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Speaker 3: that they had, that's when I started getting worried.

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Speaker 1: There's a very good reason your story didn't fit the fact,

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Speaker 1: because you didn't know the fact. Yeah, so, Brandon, you

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Speaker 1: remember there was a time when the interrogators left the

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Speaker 1: room for a few minutes and your mom came back

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Speaker 1: into the room. Yeah, beautiful life to say you.

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Speaker 3: Did you.

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Speaker 1: Huh, not really?

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Speaker 3: What do you mean?

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Speaker 1: Not really?

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Speaker 3: Huh?

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Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? So? Was that the

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Speaker 1: first time you had seen your mom since they had

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Speaker 1: started interrogating you? Yeah, that is okay? So what was

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Speaker 1: it like to see her after being alone with those

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Speaker 1: interrogators for such a long time?

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Speaker 3: I felt that I could be safe and I could

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Speaker 3: tell her the truth. You know that they got into

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Speaker 3: my head. They got me to say whatever they want it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think either before, during, or after that, the

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Speaker 1: detectives conducting that interrogation knew or realized that he was

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Speaker 1: actually innocent.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a very good question, and it's something

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Speaker 2: I've asked myself right over and over again. This is

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Speaker 2: just my opinion, but I think that they were worried

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Speaker 2: that something had gone wrong. Brendan's already been in the

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Speaker 2: box for about three and a half hours. He's adopted

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Speaker 2: their theories that he committed rape and murder and the

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Speaker 2: whole thing, and the story is over, it's done, it's locked,

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Speaker 2: and they let her into the room, and the cameras

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Speaker 2: are still rolling in the room, right and they leave

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Speaker 2: the two of them alone. You know, it's my theory

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Speaker 2: that they were outside watching this all enclosed circuit camera,

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Speaker 2: hoping that Brendan was going to make more admissions to

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Speaker 2: his mother. Instead, he recame one of the clearest recantations

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Speaker 2: I've ever heard, Right, Brendan using his own words, his

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Speaker 2: own ability to express himself, to tell his mom what

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Speaker 2: he had just been through. They got to my head.

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Speaker 2: And at that moment the officers come barging back through

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Speaker 2: that door into the interrogation room, and Brendan doesn't say

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Speaker 2: another word.

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Speaker 1: I'm getting the chills. I mean, as a parent, it's

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Speaker 1: just so heartbreaking. And look, I always say, there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of very good people in our criminal justice system,

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Speaker 1: but the ones who do the types of things that

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Speaker 1: were done to Brendan. I mean, there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: villains in this story.

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Speaker 2: Right, some unbelievable characters in the story.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so the system that was designed in theory

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Speaker 1: to protect the innocent and in this case, to protect

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Speaker 1: Brendon failed at every level.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: I mean you're starting in the interrogation room, that's right.

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Speaker 1: Starting with the fact that they targeted him in the

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Speaker 1: first place. I don't really understand. I mean, I have

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Speaker 1: a theory in my own head about why they may

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Speaker 1: have done that. And maybe we'll never know, but it

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Speaker 1: seems like to me they wanted to build a stronger

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Speaker 1: case against Stephen, no doubt about it, and so they

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Speaker 1: went for the weakest lengthage, no doubt about it. Right,

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Speaker 1: They knew that small community, they knew that Brendan was

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Speaker 1: a simple person.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's right. And you know, one of the things

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Speaker 2: about Brendan, of course, he's got disabilities. Everybody knows that.

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Speaker 2: But his disabilities in particular are clustered around speech. The

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Speaker 2: way he speaks, the way he hears language, the way

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Speaker 2: he processes words, and the way he uses his own words. Right,

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Speaker 2: So you know, this is not a person who can

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Speaker 2: sort of weave sophisticated stories or lies or things like that.

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Speaker 2: And of course these are disabilities that are at the

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Speaker 2: center of an interrogation, right, the sort of sophisticated level

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Speaker 2: of conversation talking about you know, what could happen to

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Speaker 2: him if he didn't confess because there was a threat

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Speaker 2: in this case, what would happen to him if he

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Speaker 2: didn't start adopting the story that was being fed to him.

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Speaker 2: What was going to happen. On the other hand, if

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Speaker 2: he did agree to go along with the story, you know,

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Speaker 2: this is a really hard situation for someone like brendan

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Speaker 2: sixteen special education student in Wisconsin public schools, the hard

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Speaker 2: situation for him to navigate. He did the best he could.

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Speaker 1: For as long as he could, for as long as

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Speaker 1: he could.

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Speaker 2: Four times, over forty eight hours, these officers questioned him.

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Speaker 1: And they should have been a first round knockout.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, he held up as long as he could.

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Speaker 1: You've been investigating a lot.

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Speaker 2: We already know what happened. To be a lot easier

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Speaker 2: on you it that's going to be wrong.

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Speaker 3: I'm your friend, but the honest person you get a

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Speaker 3: better deal.

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Speaker 2: We're going to believe on that work.

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Speaker 3: I don't believe in.

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Speaker 1: You're archaical. You can't make any propis, but we'll stand

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Speaker 1: behind you.

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Speaker 3: Your mom said you'd be honest with She's behind you.

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Speaker 4: Know what happened.

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Speaker 2: She thinks you don't want to do and you're more foreigner.

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Speaker 3: We already know what happened on to us.

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Speaker 1: Exactly what would you tell people when they're sitting in

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Speaker 1: that jury box and they're to incredible testimony videotapes. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I'm someone going yeah, I did it. Yeah, So what

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Speaker 1: should people watch? Because some confessions are true.

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Speaker 2: Of course, some confessions are true. Those are the ones

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Speaker 2: we want, right, it's you know, we got to screen

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Speaker 2: out the false confessions.

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Speaker 1: What do they look for?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So the big message, right, A confession is just

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Speaker 2: a piece of evidence, like any other piece of evidence. Right,

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Speaker 2: Sometimes it can be misleading, and you question it and

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Speaker 2: you examine it in the same way that you'd ask

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Speaker 2: you know, critical questions, intelligent questions about any other piece

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Speaker 2: of evidence. Right, can I trust what this person is saying?

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Speaker 2: So when you see a confession like Brendan Darcy's, where

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Speaker 2: somebody is getting the facts of the crime wrong unless

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Speaker 2: they're being told the right answer, that's a red flag. Right.

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Speaker 2: It happens throughout Brendan's interrogation, details large and small. He

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Speaker 2: can't come up with. He's guessing, and he guesses wrong, actually,

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Speaker 2: until he gets strained out by the officers. Not just

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Speaker 2: about how Teresa Holbach was killed, but he he can't

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Speaker 2: decide if if for shirt was black or white? Right,

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Speaker 2: he doesn't know what the right answer is. Has he

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Speaker 2: never met her because he never saw her, that's right.

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Speaker 2: He can't decide if the fire was started at three

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Speaker 2: pm or later on in the evening after dark, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean he doesn't know these things. He's just guessing

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Speaker 2: all over the place. And you see this repeatedly throughout

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Speaker 2: false confession cases, because what you have in those cases

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Speaker 2: are people who had nothing to do with the crime

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Speaker 2: trying to say something that sounds believable to satisfy their interrogators.

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Speaker 1: Almost everybody I've ever met says the same thing. I

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Speaker 1: am not that guy. I'm smart, I'm capable, I'm strong.

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Speaker 1: I'm not confessing to crime and then commitment.

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Speaker 2: Everybody thinks this, right, Well, that's for other people, right,

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Speaker 2: That's for you know, maybe mentally impaired people, that's for

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Speaker 2: children maybe. So what you have to understand is that

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Speaker 2: interrogation is a carefully orchestrated set of psychological tactics that

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Speaker 2: are designed to get people off their belief in their

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Speaker 2: own innocence and designed to actually make them believe that

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Speaker 2: it will help them, that it will improve their situation,

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Speaker 2: that it will benefit them to say they did these

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Speaker 2: things that the officers think. Right, these are incredibly powerful techniques,

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Speaker 2: and every single one of us has a breaking point,

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Speaker 2: and these techniques are designed to find it. So how

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Speaker 2: does this work?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: So the way this basically works. Interrogation is generally a

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Speaker 2: two stage process. The first half is all about confrontation

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Speaker 2: and reducing you down to hopelessness. Right, we know you

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Speaker 2: did this. I've got so much evidence against you. No

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Speaker 2: one is gonna believe you when you say you're innocent. Right,

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Speaker 2: I've got three people in the room next door who

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Speaker 2: picked you out of a lineup. I've got your DNA

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Speaker 2: on the scene, I've got your fingerprints on the gun.

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Speaker 2: Even if none of that is true. By the way,

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Speaker 2: it's perfectly legal for police to lie.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Not the UK, that's right, but here it's perfectly legal

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Speaker 2: for the police to lie during interrogations. So they bring

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Speaker 2: you down to hopelessness. Right, I'm not going to listen

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Speaker 2: to you say you're innocent. You're just making it worse

372
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Speaker 2: off for yourself. No one's gonna believe you. You're caught, you're trapped,

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Speaker 2: you're screwed, You've got nothing. And when you reach that

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Speaker 2: point of hopelessness, that's when they offer you an out

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Speaker 2: right a life raft confession. It's going to help you.

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Speaker 2: If you confess, you will go easy on you. You know,

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Speaker 2: I'll go talk to the judge. Right, I'll see what

378
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Speaker 2: I can do for you. Things are going to be

379
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Speaker 2: so much better for you. You've got a whole life

380
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Speaker 2: to live in front of you. You're just a kid.

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Speaker 2: People are going to understand that over and over. But

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Speaker 2: I need to hear the story from you, right, People

383
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Speaker 2: are going to understand that you deserve help if you cooperate.

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Speaker 2: That's how it works, right. These techniques are incredibly good

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Speaker 2: at getting true confessions, but they are so potent that

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Speaker 2: they also get false confessions.

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Speaker 1: And this actually we're sitting here in Chicago, which is

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Speaker 1: where this was originated, right, the read technique.

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Speaker 2: The read technique actually even better than that. It's originated

390
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Speaker 2: here out of the work of a professor at Northwestern

391
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Speaker 2: Law School. Oh my god, back in the nineteen forties. Right,

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Speaker 2: So before these are that's right, before these psychological techniques

393
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Speaker 2: were developed, interrogations were physical, right the third degree. People

394
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Speaker 2: were beaten or hung out of windows. Right, this is

395
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Speaker 2: how it was done. And in the forties, these people

396
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Speaker 2: who at the time were thought of as progressive reformers

397
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Speaker 2: come along and say, you know what, let's stop physically

398
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Speaker 2: abusing people. Let's do the psychological techniques instead. Those techniques

399
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Speaker 2: that were developed here at Northwestern here in Chicago back

400
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Speaker 2: in the nineteen forties, are still being used today. Talk

401
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:31,160
Speaker 2: about outdated, even though the DNA revolution, which has been

402
00:21:31,160 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: in full swing now for twenty five years, has proven

403
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Speaker 2: time and again that these outdated techniques are far too

404
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Speaker 2: capable of coercing false confessions.

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Speaker 1: The crazy thing is correct me if I'm wrong, you're

406
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Speaker 1: the lawyer in this equation. But had Brendan said what

407
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Speaker 1: I advise people listening to the show or anybody who

408
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Speaker 1: asked me anywhere. If you're picked up for a crime

409
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Speaker 1: that you didn't commit, and you're brought to the station,

410
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,000
Speaker 1: and you're placed in this situation, right, and you say yourself,

411
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Speaker 1: I don't want to end up like Brendon, What do

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Speaker 1: you do?

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Speaker 2: I want h lawyer, that's what you say, right, I

414
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Speaker 2: want a lawyer that stops the interrogation, or it should

415
00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:17,880
Speaker 2: stop the interrogation. That's your constitutional right to say that.

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Speaker 2: What's interesting, of course, you know the Miranda rights are

417
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Speaker 2: read usually at the beginning of interrogations. Eighty five percent

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Speaker 2: of people wave their Miranda rights, So I mean a

419
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Speaker 2: huge number of people do right. We think of these

420
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Speaker 2: as these important safeguards and everybody's out there asserting their

421
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Speaker 2: rights to lawyers and their right to be silent and

422
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Speaker 2: all these No, everybody waves these rights. And you know,

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Speaker 2: we've all been in that situation right where you get

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Speaker 2: pulled over and you think you can talk your way

425
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Speaker 2: out of it. People wave these rights. They don't understand

426
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Speaker 2: how these rights can help them, especially kids. Right, what

427
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Speaker 2: does it mean to a kid? What does it mean

428
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Speaker 2: to Brendan Dassy that he can have a lawyer in

429
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Speaker 2: the room, that his admissions will be used against him

430
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Speaker 2: in court. He doesn't know what a lawyer does. He

431
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Speaker 2: doesn't understand the ways in which a lawyer could help

432
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Speaker 2: him or improve his situation or stop this from happening

433
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Speaker 2: to him. But yeah, huge numbers of people wave those rights.

434
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Speaker 2: And it's actually the numbers are even greater when we're

435
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Speaker 2: talking about innocent people.

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Speaker 1: Sure, right, because you figure I go home.

437
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 2: Right, nothing to hid, of course, I'll talk to you, right.

438
00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: And you may also be sitting there thinking, well, if

439
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:14,679
Speaker 1: it's going to take a long time for lawyer to

440
00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:16,800
Speaker 1: get here, wait, I have things to do.

441
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,160
Speaker 2: Let me just clear this up. No problem, No, I'll

442
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 2: be out of here.

443
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 1: No, No, we're begging you. This is Jason and Laura

444
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,640
Speaker 1: personally begging you you're in that situation. There's only four

445
00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,800
Speaker 1: words you need, I want a lawyer.

446
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: Right.

447
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,000
Speaker 1: Part of the process that landed Brendan in this situation,

448
00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 1: which was his own team Leninski, Can you tell us

449
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,720
Speaker 1: what that was like? I mean, being represented by this guide.

450
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:49,240
Speaker 3: When I first met him, I knew that he didn't

451
00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 3: have my best interest in in mind because he was

452
00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 3: always trying to get me to take a plea deal

453
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 3: or something.

454
00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: So you knew right away. Yeah, Brendan, that a lot

455
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 1: of credit you because you know, many people might not

456
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: have picked up on that so quickly, because people go

457
00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: into that situation they think, well, this is my lawyer.

458
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,160
Speaker 1: He's going to be protecting me and defending me. Yeah,

459
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,679
Speaker 1: so you knew right away. But then as things progressed,

460
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:16,960
Speaker 1: I mean, did you feel betrayed or did you feel

461
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: hopeful that maybe he was going to turn it around

462
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: and actually do his job.

463
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 3: No, especially since that when I saw him on TV

464
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 3: with Nancy Grace, you know, and he more or less

465
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 3: told her that he believes that I'm guilty.

466
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,919
Speaker 1: Wow. Yeah, there's a lot of things wrong with that

467
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: whole scenario. I mean, did you mentioned that named Nancy

468
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 1: Grace and you know my skin crawls and that. Yeah,

469
00:24:45,040 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 1: the fact that he went on there with her is horrible.

470
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 1: And then you had this investigator who was supposed to

471
00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,639
Speaker 1: be helping you. Yeah, and can you talk about that

472
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 1: a little bit.

473
00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 3: What do you want to know?

474
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: Well, when he was asking you to draw pictures and

475
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: all these other things, and he was sort of badgering you,

476
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: like Brendan, you did this? Yeah, what about this investigator?

477
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:11,320
Speaker 3: At first I thought maybe he would try to help me,

478
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,000
Speaker 3: you know, but then when he was trying to get

479
00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 3: me to more or let's give another confession, you know,

480
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,359
Speaker 3: I knew right then and there that he wasn't at

481
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 3: my side either.

482
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: So basically, you had your family and that was pretty

483
00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:28,359
Speaker 1: much it. But they're not lawyers and they're not investigators.

484
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 1: They're just just regular people. Right. Yeah, how did being

485
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:37,640
Speaker 1: represented or misrepresented by len and the things that he did,

486
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:38,959
Speaker 1: how did that make you feel?

487
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 3: It made me feel betrayed and that I couldn't really

488
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,160
Speaker 3: trust lawyers either, But now I can.

489
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,640
Speaker 1: What an insane set of twists and turns.

490
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've represented Brendon Dassi through the state court appeal

491
00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: system where that the state courts in Wisconsin were not

492
00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,040
Speaker 2: particularly bothered by what they saw on that interrogation video,

493
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 2: but we sort of expected that, and then we took

494
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 2: his case. As people who watched Making a Murderer will remember,

495
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 2: we took his case to the federal court system. Right.

496
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,119
Speaker 2: The way this basically works is you can go to

497
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: federal court and you can say, hey, federal court, will

498
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 2: you review the way in which the Wisconsin state courts

499
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 2: protected Brendan's rights. So that's what we did. We went

500
00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:24,120
Speaker 2: to the federal courts. We filed what's called a petition

501
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,120
Speaker 2: for a writ of habeas corpus, asking the federal court

502
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 2: to take a look at how the state courts handled

503
00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:33,679
Speaker 2: Brendan's case. But there is a trick here. Okay, So

504
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,040
Speaker 2: let's say you go into federal court and you proved

505
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 2: to them beyond the shadow of a doubt right that

506
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 2: the state court was wrong in how it handled Brendan's case,

507
00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: you lose. In order to win in federal court, you

508
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 2: have to prove not only that the state court was

509
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 2: wrong in how it handled Brendan's case, but that it

510
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:02,679
Speaker 2: was so unreasonably wrong that no other judge in America

511
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 2: could possibly have ruled the same way. Right, that's literally

512
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 2: the legal standard thanks to the Anti Terrorism and Effective

513
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:13,880
Speaker 2: Death Penalty Act signed into law in nineteen ninety six,

514
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: which keeps you know, a lot of innocent prisoners like

515
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: Brendan Dacy from accessing this kind of relief in the

516
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: federal courts. So that's the needle that you have to

517
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 2: thread in federal court. So we filed our petition, you know,

518
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 2: we made these arguments, yes, this is that's not just wrong,

519
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: it's unreasonably wrong. No one else would rule this way,

520
00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: and we sat and waited months and months and months

521
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: for a decision, and we got our decision. You know,

522
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 2: we'd won after years of representing Brendan, we'd won in

523
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:43,760
Speaker 2: the federal district court, you know, which was a moment

524
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 2: of enormous joy, as you can imagine. But we knew,

525
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:49,520
Speaker 2: because we've pushed the boulder up the hill a lot

526
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 2: of times before, we knew that that was just round one,

527
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 2: that the state had every right to appeal, that it

528
00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,040
Speaker 2: was going to appeal this case. And it did.

529
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 1: Even that's right, that's right.

530
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 2: That's right. And so when we found out that they

531
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 2: were going to appeal, we said, you know what, that is.

532
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: You're right, we can't stop you from doing that. But

533
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,879
Speaker 2: we want Brendan out, right, we want him home. This

534
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 2: is right around Thanksgiving. We want him home for the

535
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: holidays while you guys do your thing. So we asked

536
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,480
Speaker 2: the court to release Brendan during the appeals and we

537
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,440
Speaker 2: made all of our arguments. Here's where he's going to

538
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 2: go live. He's going to be in a protected environment.

539
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:24,520
Speaker 2: We have a social worker on the space, you know,

540
00:28:24,600 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 2: working on the case, identifying resources supports for him outside.

541
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: And the court said, okay, yeah, let's let Brendan go home. Right,

542
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: He's not a danger to this community. I believe in him.

543
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: I can see it's going to be fine, So let's

544
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 2: release him. And we had an order directing the State

545
00:28:41,960 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 2: of Wisconsin to release Brendan Dassy and came within about

546
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: twelve hours of getting Brendan out before the State of

547
00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: Wisconsin asked the appeals court to block that order and

548
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 2: they did. So, you know, okay, we go forward with

549
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 2: the appeal. The state files its briefs, we file our briefs,

550
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 2: we argue it out in court before the appeals court,

551
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 2: the federal appeals courts, and again, right we're trying to

552
00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 2: thread the eye of the needle. Here we wait and

553
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 2: wait and wait for our verdict, for our decision, and

554
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: we'd won again right two to one. If this is

555
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,600
Speaker 2: in front of three judges, we'd won two to one,

556
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 2: which is another moment of great joy in celebration. Two

557
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 2: to one. I'll take it. Except please notice that as

558
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: we studied this decision was two to one decision, there

559
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 2: was suddenly another judge in America who would have ruled

560
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 2: to keep Brendon Dacy still in prison. Right. And the

561
00:29:43,440 --> 00:29:48,640
Speaker 2: more we read that dissenting judge's opinion, we realized that

562
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:50,920
Speaker 2: it read like an open invitation for the state of

563
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: Wisconsin to try this very rare legal maneuver, a rehearing

564
00:29:56,200 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: en bank where you throw out the appeal and redo

565
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: it in front of the full court. And that's exactly

566
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:06,360
Speaker 2: what they did. We argued that case and lost by

567
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 2: a single vote, four to three. Steve and I are

568
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: not done fighting for Brendan, and the world isn't either,

569
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:20,520
Speaker 2: and wisconsinights aren't either. Right, So today we have filed

570
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: a petition with the Governor of Wisconsin asking that he

571
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:31,959
Speaker 2: grant Brendan clemency, that he release Brendan Dacy from prison.

572
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 2: He's the only person in the world with the power

573
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: to do that. Governor Tony Evers. We hear so much

574
00:30:40,120 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 2: from people in state, out of state, right, people from

575
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 2: all over all four corners of Wisconsin, Madison, Milwaukee, but

576
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 2: up in Superior, up in Green Bay, out in Eau Claire, right, Lacrosse.

577
00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:53,720
Speaker 2: I get these messages constantly from people who who just

578
00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: think it's time for Brennan to come home. You know,

579
00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 2: it's pastime, and we know we're honored to be in

580
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,400
Speaker 2: a position where we can hopefully show the governor it's

581
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 2: the right time to do this.

582
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: Yes, And the goodness is that, by all accounts, this

583
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: governor is a reasonable man. He's had experience. He's visited

584
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: a juvenile detention facilities one of the first things he did.

585
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: That, that's right, he did. And he comes from the

586
00:31:16,120 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 2: education system. You know, he was the head of the

587
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,280
Speaker 2: Wisconsin Board of Education before he assumed the governor's office.

588
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 2: So this is somebody who understands. You know, Brendan was

589
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: a tenth grader in the public school special education system. Right,

590
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: That's who he was. In many ways, it's still who

591
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: he is.

592
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,480
Speaker 1: Brendan. You know, one of the things I was personally

593
00:31:40,560 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 1: so struck by was when we spoke yesterday about your

594
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: dreams for after you get out and what you want

595
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: to do in the world. Do you mind sort of

596
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: talking about that a little bit.

597
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: I mean, like getting into making and playing video games.

598
00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, yeah, and hopefully getting paid for it. Yeah.

599
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 1: We always I think it was Laura that asked you

600
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 1: if you had a superpower, what would That's right.

601
00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: That's always one of my favorite questions to ask Brendon.

602
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 3: I would want to have the power to heal illnesses

603
00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: and diseases all over the world.

604
00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: And where do you think that comes from? Like, I mean,

605
00:32:17,840 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 1: it's a great superpower. I'd like to have it too.

606
00:32:20,000 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: But of all the things, why do you think that

607
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,080
Speaker 1: one is the one that came to your mind?

608
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,760
Speaker 3: Well, I just like helping people, so I wanted to

609
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:28,479
Speaker 3: help other people in the world.

610
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:30,680
Speaker 1: I mean, look, there's a lot of people that want

611
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: to help you too, and it's amazing. We talked about

612
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: yesterday how many letters you get. Do you figure you've

613
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,719
Speaker 1: gotten letters from every state in the country by now,

614
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 1: all fifty states?

615
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 3: It's got to be close.

616
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: Uh huh.

617
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 2: You know, Brendan, why don't you tell them Some of

618
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 2: the countries that people have sent you letters from. Do

619
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: you remember some of the.

620
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 4: Countries Singapore, England, Ireland, Iceland, South America, Canada, Hawaii, New

621
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 4: Zealand too, Yeah, in Australia, right, Australia, it's.

622
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: Amazing, and also some from Wisconsin. Right.

623
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's great. So there's tens of millions of people

624
00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: now all over the world, as you know, who have

625
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 1: watched Making a Murderer have learned about your story. Do

626
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: you want to see the show when you get out?

627
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: Are you interested?

628
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 3: I might eat? I don't know if I can.

629
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 1: No, Yeah, you made it might be hard to watch, Yeah.

630
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: You know, more or less because I lived it, So

631
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 3: why would I want to watch it again?

632
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: Really understandable after everything you've been through and all the

633
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:36,720
Speaker 1: twists and turns and the freedom being sort of, you know,

634
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: yanked away from you twice? Really? Yeah, what was that?

635
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:41,240
Speaker 2: Like?

636
00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 1: Your bags were packed, right, You're ready to go home,

637
00:33:43,840 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: and then they pulled the rug out from under you.

638
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 1: I mean I would think that would make somebody crazy. Yeah.

639
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 3: I was a little depressed, you know, and called my

640
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 3: mom that night, and you know, I was I was upset.

641
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 3: You know, and so she was she you know, she

642
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 3: thought I was going to be coming home, you know,

643
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 3: and I was willing to give up all my stuff,

644
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:08,840
Speaker 3: you know, just walk out the doors with nothing, right.

645
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 1: So you were going to give it to some of

646
00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 1: the other guys in there.

647
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 3: Or either that or or just tell all the prison

648
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:16,359
Speaker 3: that they can keep it.

649
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:18,640
Speaker 1: Right, Well, you weren't going to need it anymore.

650
00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, what helps you sort of get through this, Brendon?

651
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 2: As this was all happening to you, Where did you

652
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: find your strength?

653
00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 3: Mostly having my family support me and have my back.

654
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, especially your mom, right, Yeah, today's visiting.

655
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:37,759
Speaker 3: Day, right, Yeah, I'll be getting a visit from my

656
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,239
Speaker 3: mom tonight. It means everything, you know. They have a

657
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 3: family that loves and supports me no matter what, and

658
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:47,640
Speaker 3: they always have my back.

659
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, And it's really is heartening to know

660
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: that so many people care and still care. And what

661
00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: would you tell people that want to get involved that

662
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 1: have seen your story didn't really have it any idea

663
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,359
Speaker 1: of what goes on in our justice system, but now

664
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: they do. Is there anything particular that you could advise someone?

665
00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 3: Just keep fighting for me and keep showing your love

666
00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:16,280
Speaker 3: and support.

667
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:18,719
Speaker 1: And then There's a lot of ways to do that,

668
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 1: and going to Innocence Project dot org is a good

669
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 1: place to start, Laura, Are there other places people can

670
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 1: go to learn more about this case and follow your

671
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:30,319
Speaker 1: progress and the progress and getting Brendan home.

672
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Folks can go to CWCY dot org. That's the

673
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 2: Center on Wrongful Convictions of Youth. You can learn a

674
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: lot more about Brendan's case, read as legal papers, and

675
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 2: follow developments as they happen.

676
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: And do you have social media yourself that we can

677
00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: tag you in here because we want to have people

678
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 1: follow you and your progress, not only on Brendan's case,

679
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 1: but also on all the other amazing work that you're doing.

680
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 1: I do, I do.

681
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: I'm on Instagram and Twitter, both at Laura and I writer.

682
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 1: That's easy that it's at Laura and I wrider.

683
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 3: That's right.

684
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,120
Speaker 1: And now, as regular listeners of the show know, it's

685
00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: time for the best part of the show, closing arguments,

686
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 1: where I get to just kick back in my chair

687
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: turn my microphone off. First of all, thank you again

688
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 1: for taking the time to share your thoughts and your

689
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: perspective and your spirit with me and with our audience,

690
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: And of course thank you, Laura for arranging this and

691
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: for being such a passionate, dedicated, obsessive justice fighter, and

692
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: for being on the show. So Laura, first, thank you

693
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 1: for being here.

694
00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:40,399
Speaker 2: Thanks for giving this opportunity to let the world hear

695
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: who Brendan Nasy is. You know, there have been so

696
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,839
Speaker 2: many people out there who watched Making a Murderer and

697
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:51,279
Speaker 2: were moved disturbed by Brendan's story, and who've reached out

698
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:55,240
Speaker 2: to us to ask what they can do to help Brendan.

699
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 2: There's something really easy you can do. Maybe this upcoming weekend,

700
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 2: you find yourself the extra ten mons minutes a time,

701
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:03,400
Speaker 2: think about sending him a letter.

702
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: Right.

703
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: These letters don't have to be long, they don't have

704
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: to be powerful, but just tell him, you know, keep

705
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 2: your head high. I believe in you. Right, we're fighting

706
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: for you. It'll happen for you. These letters are such

707
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,600
Speaker 2: a small gesture on the part of every one of us,

708
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 2: but they sustain him, right. They give him hope every day,

709
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 2: and that gives us the hope we need to keep

710
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: on fighting. So find his address on the Wisconsin Department

711
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 2: of Corrections website. He's in the Oshkosh Correctional Institution. Reach

712
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 2: out to him, let him know he's got friends all

713
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 2: over the world who believe in him. If you want

714
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:52,799
Speaker 2: to get involved in other ways, you can do that.

715
00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 2: You can educate yourself. There are a lot of other books, films,

716
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 2: TV shows about wrongful conviction. Brendan is not the only one.

717
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,439
Speaker 2: Get out there. Watch when they see us, Right, watch

718
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:07,279
Speaker 2: the Paradise Last series about the West Memphis three or

719
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: West of Memphis. Watch Murder on a Sunday morning, right,

720
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,560
Speaker 2: watch the confession tapes. You can see incredible shows, read

721
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: incredible books about this happening over and over, some of

722
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,040
Speaker 2: which we've mentioned today, and you can get out there.

723
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,279
Speaker 2: Of course, you can support organizations like the Center on

724
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: Wrongful Convictions or the Innocence Project or a lot of

725
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 2: other incredible organizations that do this work. But most importantly, right,

726
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,279
Speaker 2: don't stop saying Brendan Dacy's name. Get out there on

727
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: social media, remember him, Keep insisting that the people with

728
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,720
Speaker 2: power in this system do justice for Brendan. Write letters

729
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,840
Speaker 2: to the governor of Wisconsin. Tell him what you see

730
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: when you see Brendan on TV. Tell him what you

731
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:52,680
Speaker 2: hear when you hear Brendan on a podcast like this,

732
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 2: Especially if you live in Wisconsin, tell him you want

733
00:38:57,160 --> 00:39:01,480
Speaker 2: Brendan home. That's the difference that you can make. It's

734
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 2: a huge difference. We rely on people like you to

735
00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: light the way, to show the path for doing the

736
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,720
Speaker 2: right thing here. So thank you to everybody who's written

737
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 2: to Brendan. Keep doing it, keep showing your support. Let's

738
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 2: get him home together.

739
00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: And Brendan, thank you again for you know, letting me

740
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 1: come see you and for spending time on the air

741
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 1: with us today. And now I get to leave it

742
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,360
Speaker 1: open for you to say whatever you want as we

743
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:33,680
Speaker 1: close the show.

744
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 3: I don't know what to say. I love Pokemon and

745
00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 3: my favorite Pokemon is Mew. But there's a new one

746
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 3: coming out called El Creamy that I really like, and

747
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 3: hopefully I get to see some of the more new

748
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 3: ones coming out pretty soon.

749
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: Don't forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever you

750
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 1: get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm a proud

751
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: donor to the Innocence Project, and I really hope you'll

752
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: join me in supporting this very important cause and helping

753
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocenceproject dot org

754
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,920
Speaker 1: to learn how to donate and get involved. I'd like

755
00:40:40,960 --> 00:40:43,960
Speaker 1: to thank our production team, Connor Hall and Kevin Wartis.

756
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: The music in the show is by three time OSCAR

757
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:49,640
Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on

758
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: Instagram at Bronful Conviction and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast.

759
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm is a production of Lava

760
00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 1: for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company Number one