1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,120 --> 00:00:13,560 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 1: I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. Tracy, we 4 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:22,840 Speaker 1: are officially into creepy hunted places time. We are, but 5 00:00:22,960 --> 00:00:24,960 Speaker 1: as people who have listened to the show in the past, 6 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: and particularly our Halloween episodes right now, sometimes even the 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: creepy haunted things, we have to talk about the explanations 8 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: and and validity versus not of those creepy hunted claims. 9 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: So if you just want to go story, you might 10 00:00:39,479 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: be disappointed. Well, and this is this is one of 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: those cases where the reporting of the ghosts is very 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: different between like English speaking ghost hunters and locals. Yes, 13 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: for sure. Um, today's topic is actually about what is 14 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: now an uninhabited island that has come to be called 15 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: all manner of spooky things in in some of the 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:10,640 Speaker 1: rather more sensationalist discussions of it, including Plague Island and 17 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: the Island of Ghosts and the Venetian Island of No Return, 18 00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: which I love. But plenty of people have gone there 19 00:01:15,920 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: and looked around it come back, so that doesn't really 20 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: seem valid. Uh uh. And since we're headed into Halloween, 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: it seemed like the perfect time to tackle this odd, 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: tiny little patch of land in the lagoon surrounding Venice. 23 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:30,640 Speaker 1: And first we're gonna talk a little bit about the 24 00:01:30,640 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: island itself, which is Pavilia, and then we're going to 25 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: talk about its history and finally some of the legends 26 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,800 Speaker 1: that have given it all of those scary monikers. And 27 00:01:38,840 --> 00:01:41,959 Speaker 1: there are some creepiness even before we get to that part. 28 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: Oh sure, there's always a little creepiness, especially when a 29 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,000 Speaker 1: place has been around for a long time. And the 30 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 1: tiny island of Bavlius, it's south of Venice proper, it's 31 00:01:53,320 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: west of the Venice Lido sandbar in the Venice Lagoon. Yeah, 32 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: if you look at a map of Venice, there's the 33 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: tight cluster of lands that make up sort of what 34 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: I would call the city proper. And then that sand 35 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: bar extends to the east of that down kind of 36 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: in a southerly direction at a slight angle, and then 37 00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: Pavilia is kind of in the and towards the base 38 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,880 Speaker 1: of that sand bar in the lagoon, and Pavilion is 39 00:02:18,040 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: viewed from above, is shaped sort of and I really 40 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,320 Speaker 1: have to make clear that it's a sort of sort 41 00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: of like a narrow fan in what looks like three 42 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 1: pieces when you're viewing it from an aerial shot. So 43 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: the base at the southern end of the island is 44 00:02:31,400 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 1: an octagonal shape, and it's separated from the rest by 45 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: a little a little bit of water. And then the 46 00:02:37,200 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: remaining fan, which is about seven point five hectares or 47 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,480 Speaker 1: eighteen point six acres, is bisected by a canal that 48 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: runs across it roughly east to west, and there is 49 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:49,920 Speaker 1: a footbridge that connects the two sections of the island 50 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: that are separated by that canal. It almost doesn't look 51 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 1: like a real thing to me. Yeah, So there are 52 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: a number of buildings on the island that includes the 53 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: remains of a church, a hospital, and a series of 54 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:06,200 Speaker 1: smaller structures that appear to have been staff housing and 55 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: administration buildings. Yeah. And if you're looking at it, like 56 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: I said, in those those two land pieces connected by 57 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 1: a bridge, the southerly one is the one where the 58 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: buildings are. The one to the north doesn't really have 59 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: anything built on it, and access to Pavilia would normally 60 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: happen via boat from Venice, but there are no regularly 61 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,680 Speaker 1: running ferries or water shuttles. You cannot just ask someone 62 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,880 Speaker 1: with a boat to take you there, because most of 63 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: them won't go, and this is usually choked up to 64 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: some sort of you know, uh, sinister reason, either that 65 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: people are too superstitious to go near it, or on 66 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: a more practical level, that they just aren't interested in tourists, 67 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: adding to the morass of ghost stories about the island. 68 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: But the reality of the situation is actually quite mundane. 69 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,120 Speaker 1: It is just off limits to visitors. So Pavilia's beginnings 70 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: aren't all that well documented, but it's likely that it 71 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,280 Speaker 1: served as a haven in the fifth century for people 72 00:04:03,280 --> 00:04:07,280 Speaker 1: who were fleeing invaders to the European continent. At that 73 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: point it was called Popilia, most likely derived from someone's 74 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 1: family name. The island was inhabited into the early ninth century, 75 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: when its existing population left as Charlemagne's son Peppin attacked Venice, 76 00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: but by the end of the ninth century it was 77 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 1: once again inhabited and it had developed a small but 78 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:29,239 Speaker 1: stable economy that was mostly based on fishing. A church 79 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: was erected on the island in the twelfth century, was 80 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,240 Speaker 1: named for Saint Detalais, and the only remaining structure from 81 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:38,279 Speaker 1: that church is its bell tower. The church itself was 82 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: eventually demolished, and in the early nineteenth century that bell 83 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: tower was converted into a lighthouse and it remains and 84 00:04:45,200 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: it is the tallest structure on the island. In the 85 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 1: fourteenth century, the Venetians ended a very long conflict with 86 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 1: the Genoese, and this was actually a late stage of 87 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: a whole series of conflicts that had started a hundred 88 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: years earlier. In the mid thirteenth century, the Venetians were 89 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: driven north to the larger island of Judica, and these 90 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: conflicts led to this design and construction of fortifications in 91 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:12,919 Speaker 1: the lagoon. So an octagonal fortress which we mentioned earlier 92 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: was built on the island of Pavilion after the fourteenth century. 93 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:18,839 Speaker 1: That's what forms that base of that sort of fan 94 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,920 Speaker 1: shape that I described. And this was one of several 95 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,440 Speaker 1: forts in the area that were built to protect Venice. 96 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,760 Speaker 1: In addition to the octagon at Pavilion, there was the 97 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,480 Speaker 1: Arsenal in Venice proper, the fort on the island of 98 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:34,599 Speaker 1: Saint Andrea, and another octagon at Alberoni. And this group 99 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:38,200 Speaker 1: of fortifications has actually been nominated as a UNESCO World 100 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: Heritage Site under the umbrella name Venetian works of defense 101 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,560 Speaker 1: between fifteenth and seventeenth centuries. When you look at the 102 00:05:45,600 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: aerial views of the island, the this octagonal fort combined 103 00:05:49,880 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: with the canal are what really makes it look like 104 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:56,400 Speaker 1: to me, like is this a theme park ride? It 105 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,039 Speaker 1: does look a little um. It looks to me also 106 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: sometimes like a very fat punctuation mark, like the like 107 00:06:02,640 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: an exclamation point, and the fort makes the dot at 108 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: the bottom. Sure, but it's not a normal shape. No. 109 00:06:10,240 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: Pavelio was briefly part of the Austrian Empire before Napoleon 110 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,800 Speaker 1: conquered it for France, and it was during this time 111 00:06:16,839 --> 00:06:19,479 Speaker 1: that the Church of Santa Fatale was brought down and 112 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: the lighthouse was converted. And during the Napoleonic Wars in 113 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: the first two decades of the nineteenth century, the fortress 114 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: on Pavilion was used first by Napoleon as a place 115 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,000 Speaker 1: to stash weapons, and then it was repurposed by English 116 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,560 Speaker 1: soldiers as a location from which they could launch an 117 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,799 Speaker 1: ambush on French ships. And according to legend, the prisoners 118 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: that they took in these ambushes were taken to the 119 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: island and killed, and then their ships were left to 120 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: sink in the lagoon. There is one legend I don't 121 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: go into later, that there are still French ships just 122 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: sitting there at the bottom of the lagoon. Pavelio was 123 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 1: also used as a lazaretto or a maritime quarantine location 124 00:06:56,520 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: as part of the public Health office. As Venice has 125 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:02,720 Speaker 1: been an important seaport all through its history, it's often 126 00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 1: had to take measures to ensure that visitors and traders 127 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: who were traveling through the city would not bring an 128 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: outbreak of disease with them. That sort of outbreak could 129 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 1: quickly devastate the population of a city like Venice, and similarly, 130 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: if Venice had an outbreak of disease, those leaving could 131 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: carry it and then spread it far and wide. So 132 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 1: to that end, both incoming and outgoing travelers would have 133 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,480 Speaker 1: to wait either on their ships off the coast or 134 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: on the island of Pavilion for a period of forty 135 00:07:32,080 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: days to ensure that they were not brewing a potential 136 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: health crisis before they were granted admittance to the city 137 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 1: or before they were let go. And this has claimed 138 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: in some sources as the origin of the word quarantine. 139 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,720 Speaker 1: So Caranta is the Italian word for forty. Ferdinand von Garam, 140 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: who was a commander of a volunteer corp of Viennese 141 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: soldiers to fight against Napoleon the First, wrote an account 142 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,920 Speaker 1: of his time in quarantine in his book that was 143 00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:01,720 Speaker 1: called A Pilgrimage to Palestine, Egypt and Syria. That book 144 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:05,239 Speaker 1: was published in eighteen forty, and the account that's dated 145 00:08:05,280 --> 00:08:09,600 Speaker 1: September six one reads as follows. I am on board 146 00:08:09,640 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 1: the ship Ulysses. She has not finished her quarantine and 147 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:15,600 Speaker 1: is subject to all the rigors of the sanitary laws. 148 00:08:16,120 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: Since my embarkation, I am myself considered as one infected 149 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: with the plague. This letter will be taken up with 150 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 1: pincers and put into a tin box, and it will 151 00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: come to you stabbed, sprinkled with vinegar, and fumigated. I 152 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: left Venice at seven in the morning. The Admiralty gondola 153 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: came to my hotel to fetch me. The captain of 154 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: the port had kindly caused such necessaries as I should 155 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: want for the voyage to be purchased for me. I 156 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 1: proceeded to the Lazaretto, a short league from Venice, then 157 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: went on board the ship. The Austrian flag was hoisted 158 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: on my approach, I was received by the captain, the mate, 159 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,079 Speaker 1: and the crew. So at least in this instance, it 160 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,640 Speaker 1: seems like the quarantine was simply a matter of course. 161 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 1: It was not a scenario of torture or even seemingly fear. 162 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,400 Speaker 1: It was just waiting out the days required to determine 163 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: that no disease outbreak was coming or going before he 164 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: could just move on, because he basically just kept in 165 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:15,400 Speaker 1: his journal his discussion of his days waiting there at Pavilion. 166 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,520 Speaker 1: And coming up, we're going to talk about the historical 167 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,360 Speaker 1: affliction that is most commonly referenced when it comes to Pavilia, 168 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:25,440 Speaker 1: that being bubonic plague. But before we do, we're gonna 169 00:09:25,440 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: have a quick sponsor break. So while Pavilion's use as 170 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,720 Speaker 1: a lazaretto went well into the nineteenth century, it's the 171 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: surges of bubonic plague that made the island famous as 172 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: a holding facility. So during these times, Venice, at a 173 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: heightened state of fear, would send sick people to the 174 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:53,280 Speaker 1: island basically just to die. The bodies would then be 175 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 1: shoveled into mass graves and then burnt, and from the 176 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: fourteenth to the sixteenth centuries, Venice went through almost two 177 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: dozen plagues gears, so there is really no telling how 178 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: many people have been buried and or burned on the island. 179 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: Just as an fyi, though, you might see images of 180 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: excavated plague pits with large, large numbers of skeletal remains 181 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: when you searched for pictures of Pavelia online, but those 182 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 1: are from a different island and the Venetian lagoon, Lazaretto Vecchio. 183 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: There are almost certainly plague pits still on Pavelia. They've 184 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,800 Speaker 1: just never been exhumed. Yeah. I I found one thing 185 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: in a note and we'll talk about it a little 186 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: bit more towards the end, where there is allegedly a 187 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:39,679 Speaker 1: marker at one point that says do not dig disease 188 00:10:40,000 --> 00:10:43,440 Speaker 1: within or whatever. I didn't find that repeated in in 189 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:49,000 Speaker 1: places I would consider reasonable and valid sources. So there 190 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,760 Speaker 1: could be, but I don't know. Um in hospital was 191 00:10:53,880 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: established on the island. This is often reported as a 192 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: mental hospital, so that's right. At this point, this island 193 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: has what you could consider a haunting trifecta of a fort, 194 00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: plaque pits and a mental hospital. But either eventually or 195 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: simultaneously it is a little unclear that hospital was also 196 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:16,800 Speaker 1: used as a housing facility for Venice's older indigent population, 197 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: and some stories will say that, oh no, it transitioned 198 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: and became basically like a nursing home for elderly people. 199 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:26,520 Speaker 1: Others will say it was always one or the other. 200 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: It's a little unclear exactly how that played out. But 201 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: in night, Pavilion's home for elderly homeless people closed and 202 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: the island has not been inhabited since then. But while 203 00:11:38,559 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: there haven't been people permanently living on it, there have 204 00:11:41,240 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 1: been people still using the island. There's a small vineyard 205 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:48,160 Speaker 1: and some other agricultural projects that were put there not 206 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: long after the hospital closed. Teenagers have long been known 207 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: to visit it, as evidenced buy some graffiti throughout the buildings, 208 00:11:56,040 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 1: and for a while there was a plan to use 209 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: part of the island for student houseing. That whole idea 210 00:12:02,000 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 1: fascinates me, and that project never came to fruition. Uh yeah, 211 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of moments of public 212 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: works intentions in this story that don't ever quite make 213 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: it to the finish line. Um. But over the years, 214 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: the various remaining man made structures have slowly been reclaimed 215 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:25,199 Speaker 1: by the island's natural vegetation. Various visitors, yes, some people 216 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: do visit even though it is technically off limits, have 217 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: taken photos of Pavilion in recent years, and the degradation 218 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: of the structures make it really apparent that there is 219 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: likely a huge safety risk in just wandering around in 220 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: the crumbling buildings. The humidity and the seasonal weather changes 221 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: have severely damaged the roofs throughout the island. Most of 222 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 1: them are either partially or totally collapsed in the Italian 223 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: government tried to leverage Pavilia's cultural popularity to drive revenue 224 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 1: to try to address some really deep debt. They auctioned 225 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:01,160 Speaker 1: off a lease for the island, and the winning bid 226 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: would have the island via a lease for ninety nine years. 227 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:08,120 Speaker 1: The property would remain owned by the Italian government. This 228 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:10,199 Speaker 1: is part of a larger effort on the part of 229 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: the government to liquidate properties for redevelopment for both short 230 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,239 Speaker 1: term and long term economic boost The four other properties 231 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: that were chosen were to be sold out right rather 232 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: than least, however, and the Pavilion auction was covered in 233 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: a variety of news outlets under headlines like you could 234 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 1: own the world's most haunted island, somewhere a little more 235 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: stoic than that, but there were a lot along those lines. 236 00:13:32,960 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: But the plan sort of fell apart, so the auction 237 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 1: proceeded as scheduled. Basically, it wasn't an auction like with 238 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: a gavel. It was like there was a timeline where 239 00:13:42,160 --> 00:13:45,240 Speaker 1: people could put in bids uh and a businessman named 240 00:13:45,320 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: Luigi Bunaro one after bidding five hundred and thirteen thousand euros, 241 00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 1: I saw one estimate that put that somewhere between seven 242 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,160 Speaker 1: hundred thousand and a quarter of a million dollars uh 243 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,840 Speaker 1: in in American money. So through a spokesperson, it was 244 00:13:59,880 --> 00:14:02,480 Speaker 1: an now said the purchase was made by Bruniaro to 245 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,480 Speaker 1: ensure that this piece of property went to an Italian 246 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: rather than a foreign developer, and that whatever project was 247 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 1: chosen for it was going to be designed for public use. 248 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: An activist group which was referred to as the Popelia 249 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 1: Association in most English language news outlets, but which is 250 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: really called Pavelia Pertuti and its actual name which means 251 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: Pavelia for everyone, tried to raise funds to purchase the 252 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 1: island and make it a historic property, and they did 253 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:30,480 Speaker 1: make an offer, but it was much much lower than 254 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:32,920 Speaker 1: this winning bid. It was a hundred and sixty thousand 255 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: euros that came from four thousand, three hundred twenty nine donors. 256 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,120 Speaker 1: Once Brunaro's bid was in the Pavelia Association insisted that 257 00:14:42,200 --> 00:14:44,680 Speaker 1: the Italian state agency that was handling the auction in 258 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: the sale not except this offer. Brunnaro's plan was eventually 259 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 1: rejected by the Agencia del de Manio on the grounds 260 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: that what he had in mind was incongruous with the 261 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: restoration needs of the island. At the time of the 262 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,320 Speaker 1: determination that the original bidder plan wasn't workable, Venice was 263 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: also in the midst of a scandal related to bribes 264 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: that was impacting a lot of city officials in actuality. 265 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: That bid was really too low to meet the needs 266 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 1: of the state in terms of denting their debt. Bernaro 267 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: initially intended to pursue this matter through legal channels, thinking 268 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 1: that his offer should have been accepted under the terms 269 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: of the auction, but then he decided to run for 270 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: mayor of Venice on a conservative platform and he won, 271 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: and when he started his campaign, he renounced any interest 272 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: in Pavilia to avoid any conflicts of interest, and since 273 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: that time, Pavilion Pertuti has continued to work on developing 274 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: a proposal for the island that will retain its historical 275 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: identity and make two thirds of the island public recreational space, 276 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: rather than allowing it to become a luxury tourist destination, 277 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: which has happened to pretty much all the other little 278 00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,280 Speaker 1: islands that were sold off death. It's not surprising at 279 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: all that an island with so many tragic historical events 280 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:01,120 Speaker 1: is rumored to be haunted. I mean, like colleagues said earlier, 281 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: it's got the whole trifecta of hauntings. And because of 282 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 1: the lack of documentation and excavation, there's just a big 283 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: gap in knowledge about a lot of different aspects of 284 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,680 Speaker 1: Pavilion's history, and that means that people have filled in 285 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: these gaps with fantastic tales, and we're going to go 286 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: through just a few of them. So the soil, some 287 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: people claim is fifty human ash, because according to rumor, 288 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: more than one thousand bodies are buried there, and this 289 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,640 Speaker 1: is again a pretty small space. We have no idea 290 00:16:31,840 --> 00:16:34,440 Speaker 1: really how many plague victims or other people have been 291 00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: laid to rest on the island. Recent statements by the 292 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: group working to make public spaces on the island say 293 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: that those numbers are very inflated in all likelihood, But 294 00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:46,480 Speaker 1: as a counter there have been those mass graves found 295 00:16:46,480 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: on Lazaretto Vecchio nearby, so it does not seem that 296 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:55,320 Speaker 1: unlikely that Pavilia has a similar situation. Rumors persist that 297 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: local fishers are so terrified of accidentally netting human remains 298 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: that they won't go anywhere near the island, and some 299 00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: versions of this particular part of the story indicate that 300 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: the main concern is accidentally disturbing an ancestor. But this 301 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 1: story is just simply not true. Modern photos show active 302 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: fishing nets in place around the island, and there are 303 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 1: a couple of different angles to the haunting stories that 304 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,639 Speaker 1: are associated with this Venice Lagoon island. The most standard, 305 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: slash obvious version is simply that all those plague victims 306 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 1: ferried to the island to die never found peace in 307 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: the afterlife, and so their spirits are trapped on Pavilion. 308 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:34,960 Speaker 1: There have also been accounts that claim to have seen 309 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:39,520 Speaker 1: plague doctors with those unique and distinctive masks wandering the island. 310 00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:42,679 Speaker 1: In spectral form a lot of times. That plague doctor image, 311 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:44,920 Speaker 1: which is very creepy and sort of beautiful if you're 312 00:17:44,920 --> 00:17:48,640 Speaker 1: into Gothic key things, is very much associated with Pavilia. 313 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: A more layered version claims that when the mental hospital 314 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: was built, the patients were haunted by the plague ghosts 315 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:58,280 Speaker 1: who were already on the island, and then as patients 316 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 1: at the hospital died, they just joy going to the 317 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: ghosts that were already there. And we are going to 318 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:06,479 Speaker 1: talk about the darkest and most grizzly of the haunting 319 00:18:06,560 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: legends about Pavilion in just a moment. So if you 320 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: are a little bit easily spooked, or maybe if you 321 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: have a little or listener, this is a good time 322 00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: to just preview this last section if you're you're concerned. 323 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:18,400 Speaker 1: But before we do it, we're going to hear from 324 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: one of our sponsors that keeps his show going. The 325 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,960 Speaker 1: most gruesome of the haunting legends on Pavilion is related 326 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:34,800 Speaker 1: to the mental hospital that we mentioned. So the story 327 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 1: goes that one of the doctors there at the hospital 328 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,200 Speaker 1: was just incredibly cruel, so much so that he began 329 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 1: conducting experiments on the patients. So stories of crude lobotomies. 330 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:49,560 Speaker 1: That phrase comes up over and over patients being chained 331 00:18:49,680 --> 00:18:53,200 Speaker 1: up or tortured. A variety of other horrors all entered 332 00:18:53,240 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: the story, and they reach varying degrees of cringe worthy 333 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 1: depending on the source that you're looking at. Eventually, the 334 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: doctor in this scenario is said to have been driven 335 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,080 Speaker 1: to kill himself, either because he realized the horror of 336 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: what he was doing and was guilty about it, or 337 00:19:09,119 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: because he was haunted by the dead of the island. 338 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: And in the story he jumped from the bell tower. 339 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 1: There are variations about whether he just fell or whether 340 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: he was pushed by mysterious forces as well. And in 341 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,479 Speaker 1: some versions I found this and I was sort of 342 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: delighted the fall did not kill him, but instead he 343 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: was engulfed by some sort of other worldly missed presumably spirits. Uh. 344 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: These stories often end with the spookiest of lines, but 345 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: his body was never found, uh, suggesting sort of obliquely 346 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: that he could somehow still be wandering around out there. 347 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:46,919 Speaker 1: But the boring reality is that this entire story of 348 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,879 Speaker 1: a doctor who was incredibly cruel and unkind and was 349 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,919 Speaker 1: driven mad appears to have been completely fabricated. There is 350 00:19:56,960 --> 00:19:59,399 Speaker 1: no record of such a person or event, which is 351 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: why nobody has ever found a body. Yeah. Yeah, it's 352 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:09,960 Speaker 1: it's it's very trophy, it's very Yeah. A big part 353 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 1: of this whole haunted label that's been put on Pavelia 354 00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 1: seems to have come from the TV show Ghost Adventures. 355 00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 1: On two thousand nine, the series had an episode about 356 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,199 Speaker 1: Pavelia in which one of the hosts claimed to have 357 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: been temporarily possessed during the filming. The show described Pavilia 358 00:20:26,920 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: as the world's most haunted island, and the stories have 359 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,280 Speaker 1: only gained momentum since then. Yeah, you really do notice, 360 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 1: like there's not a lot of write ups that you 361 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: can find before that about it being haunted. I'm sure 362 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: any place that you know has been abandoned, those local 363 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,400 Speaker 1: stories come up about it, and sometimes they get used 364 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: to try to keep children in line, etcetera. But in 365 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: terms of like the online content about it and any 366 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 1: sort of like write ups, they're not really about it 367 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: being haunted until after this and and they just go 368 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: bananas and they're everywhere you can find haunting stories. But 369 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,760 Speaker 1: there also has been a growing movement to give Pavilia 370 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,760 Speaker 1: a place in Venice's history. Without all of those paranormal 371 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 1: and spooky rumors. So for many locals, even though the 372 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 1: island has officially been off limits to visitors, it was 373 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: part of their youth. Many of them grew up going 374 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: to the island to fish or explore with friends or 375 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: get into a bit of teenage mischief away from adults. 376 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 1: In addition to wanting Pavilion to be spared the fate 377 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: of the other Lagoon islands, which most of them have 378 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: had hotels built on them. They tend to be very big, 379 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: luxurious hotels. These Italians want to put to rest the 380 00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,919 Speaker 1: ghost stories that have really sensationalized the identity of the 381 00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:44,919 Speaker 1: island on the global stage. In some cases, this seems 382 00:21:44,960 --> 00:21:47,840 Speaker 1: like it might be muddling the history even farther though. 383 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:50,679 Speaker 1: For example, there have been claims that the hospital on 384 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,399 Speaker 1: the island was never a mental hospital, but there is 385 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 1: at least one sign that's been photographed there in recent 386 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:02,920 Speaker 1: years that reads psychiatric department and Italian. Yeah, So, so 387 00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: that kind of fuels the idea that it was a 388 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,919 Speaker 1: mental hospital. But it also really does not help the 389 00:22:08,920 --> 00:22:12,320 Speaker 1: case of people going no, no, no, nothing weird happened here. Uh. 390 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 1: It's kind of like you gotta acknowledge what what was 391 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: real in order to soothe a more sensationalized discussion about it. Uh. 392 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 1: And of course there are loads of places to find 393 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: references to Pavilia in modern fiction, which in many cases 394 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: are kind of adding to that haunted mystique. A place 395 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: that appears to be based on Pavilion is actually in 396 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 1: the first chapter of the graphic novel Sandman and This 397 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,639 Speaker 1: Endless Nights by Neil Gaiman, and Pavilion also appears in 398 00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 1: other graphic novels as well. It's referenced periodically in various 399 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: fictional TV shows, and it is currently the setting of 400 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,200 Speaker 1: an Italian film that is in development titled The Plague Doctor. 401 00:22:49,600 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: And in nonfictional art, there's a drawing of Pavlio by 402 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: Jack m'guardy and the Metropolitan Museum of Arts collection. This 403 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: image is labeled the Island of Pavelio with British naval 404 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: officers embarking, and it was drawn sometime in the late 405 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,480 Speaker 1: eighteenth early nineteenth century. Features a scene that looks full 406 00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,400 Speaker 1: of life and very active. There's not a ghost in sight. 407 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:12,040 Speaker 1: And we'll put a link to it in the shout outs. Yeah, 408 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,679 Speaker 1: that's in there. Online archives, so you can look at 409 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: it and see that it it just looks like any 410 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:20,080 Speaker 1: drawing you would see of a busy island with a 411 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: military personnel coming and going on it. Well that spooky 412 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: at all? Yeah, you just went to the MET. I 413 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: was gonna ask if that it was what inspired that. 414 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: I do not see it at the met. Um if 415 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,479 Speaker 1: I had, that would have been a whole other thing. 416 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,040 Speaker 1: I did get another idea for a different show at 417 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: the MET, but you'll have to wait for that one. Um. Yeah, 418 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 1: we'll talk about that then. But yeah, so that is 419 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: pavilia an island that it is fun to think about 420 00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: being haunted, but I feel like the reality is probably 421 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 1: more mundane. That's usually mine go too. There was one 422 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: discussion that I stumbled across online. They're like, we went 423 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:56,760 Speaker 1: and we recorded and there were all these noises of 424 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,360 Speaker 1: thumping and bumping, and in my head, I'm like, those 425 00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: buildings are falling apart before our eyes. Like, yes, I 426 00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:06,119 Speaker 1: believe there was something of bumping. Yeah, probably roof tiles 427 00:24:06,119 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: falling off. I know, I'm very skeptical. Well, Um, I 428 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 1: stayed in a cabin one time many years ago, and 429 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:16,240 Speaker 1: I was I was staying there two nights a week 430 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: for several weeks in a row, and something about this 431 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: old that there was like a newly built on edition 432 00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: which was where I was staying, and then a very 433 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,199 Speaker 1: very old part. And the old part just gave me 434 00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: the creeps real bad the whole time I was there. 435 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: And one night I heard this like creepy thumping sound 436 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: that was kind of muffled, like weird footsteps, and it 437 00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: scared me so bad. And then I got up in 438 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:46,280 Speaker 1: the morning to get in my car and leave, and 439 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: I heard the noise again and I whipped around and 440 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: it was apples falling out of the apple tree. Yeah. Yeah, unfortunately, 441 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,879 Speaker 1: like gravity will give you some good ghost noises sometimes. 442 00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 1: Uh yeah. I mean, I love to think about a 443 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: haunted place, haven't knows. The haunted mansion is my favorite place. 444 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 1: But uh yeah, usually it's it's a pretty mundane explanation. 445 00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,919 Speaker 1: I have a general listener mail round up today, like 446 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: I often mentioned, but I always feel like I should 447 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: mention it again. Uh it's so easy to get behind 448 00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: because we get a lot of great listener mails. So 449 00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm not going to read all of them, but I 450 00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:24,679 Speaker 1: will discuss each of them. There are a few so 451 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 1: The first is from Uh. It looks like Jessica and 452 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 1: I think Jose this is a case of a postcard 453 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:33,280 Speaker 1: that got slightly Uh. It didn't really get mangled, they 454 00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 1: just got a little smeared on the on the journey. 455 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:40,240 Speaker 1: They listen to the podcast, and they were recently on 456 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 1: vacation in Canada, and they sent us a postcard from 457 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:48,680 Speaker 1: a castle whose name I'm probably going to terribly mispronounced, 458 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,679 Speaker 1: which is Craig Dark Castle in Victoria, British Columbia. It 459 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: is very beautiful, uh, and I appreciate it. It's a 460 00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: They mentioned that it has quite a rich family history, 461 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: so I might that the list of things to investigate. 462 00:26:01,840 --> 00:26:03,679 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Jessica and Jose. I hope you 463 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 1: had wonderful travels. My next one is an email that 464 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,639 Speaker 1: I really love from our listener Will. I want to 465 00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 1: withhold some of the information because what he tells us 466 00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 1: I can explain where his house is. Uh. He said, 467 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,040 Speaker 1: thank you. I just listened to your Carmen Miranda podcast. 468 00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,600 Speaker 1: I am particularly interested in Carmen because I recently purchased 469 00:26:22,600 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: and now live in her first home in California. I 470 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 1: was not much of a Carmen Miranda fan before I 471 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 1: bought the house, but I have since come to learn 472 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: her story, which impresses me, and I am a Carmen 473 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:35,080 Speaker 1: Miranda fan. Now I haven't yet come across any relics 474 00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: from Carmen Miranda at home, but eventually I will collect 475 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: a few items of memorabilia to honor the past. And 476 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 1: then the line that I thought was super cool, he said, 477 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: I guess it's kind of cool that your podcast about 478 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: Carmen Miranda has been played where she once lived. I agree, 479 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,600 Speaker 1: that's super cool. Cool. Um, if I show up on 480 00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: your doorstep, just know that you told me where you live, 481 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: so I wouldn't really show up and announced on someone's doorstep, 482 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: but it is very tempting. I also have a listener 483 00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: from Caroline. This is also about Carmen Miranda. Uh. She 484 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:09,000 Speaker 1: had sent us a lovely little note in a beautiful 485 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 1: envelope with a wax seal. You guys, in your wax 486 00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,760 Speaker 1: seals are really bringing it to the next level. She says, 487 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: I was so excited to hear your new episode on 488 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: Carmen Miranda. She's popped up often in my historical research 489 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,119 Speaker 1: on the Caribbean and is featured in one of my 490 00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: favorite books and is on the cover, and it talks 491 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:26,280 Speaker 1: about how women's labor basically runs the world, but they 492 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: don't get any credit. With your excellent podcast, you bring 493 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,960 Speaker 1: so many women to the foe and assess them with nuance. 494 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: Thank you for your hard work, Caroline. Thank you so much, Caroline. 495 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: I love Carmen Miranda's story and think she's a fascinating uh. 496 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to say character. She's a real human, 497 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: but she's a fascinating figure in history, as there are 498 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 1: many of the women UH and men and other people 499 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: that we talk about. I love all that stuff. So 500 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: thank you guys for sharing your thoughts, telling me where 501 00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: you live, and sending us beautiful postcards all the time. 502 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: We really appreciate it. I wish we could always get 503 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: all of them on the air, but it's just not feasible. 504 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: Would be a podcast just called mail bag and it 505 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: would go on for months and people would stop listening. 506 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us, though, you 507 00:28:06,800 --> 00:28:09,639 Speaker 1: can do so by writing History Podcast at house to 508 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: works dot com. You can also find us across the 509 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: spectrum of social media as Missed in History. You can 510 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 1: find our mailing address at our website which is missed 511 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 1: in History dot com. That is also where you will 512 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: find the entire archive of all of the shows, even 513 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: from long before Tracy and I were involved, and you 514 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 1: can find show notes for the ones that Tracy and 515 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,479 Speaker 1: I have worked on together. So come and visit us 516 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,119 Speaker 1: and missed in history dot com and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, 517 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: Google Play, or wherever you get your podcasts. For more 518 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,320 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics, visit houst works 519 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:50,680 Speaker 1: dot com.