WEBVTT - How to Invest in the Coming Space Gold Rush with Tim Marshall 0:00:00.320 --> 0:00:03.800 John. How often do you wake up in the morning 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:05.120 or I see in the middle of the night and 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:07.560 think to yourself, oh, God, I was going in the 0:00:07.600 --> 0:00:10.399 public sector. There's something, and I know there is something 0:00:10.440 --> 0:00:12.920 that makes you wish the God that you tried out 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:15.600 one of those civil service fast track schemes or even 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:18.000 a slow track scheme, or literally anything at this point, 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:20.239 because you would have got what would you have got? 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:26.840 The defined benefit pension, the gold plated pension, not just. 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:32.200 A defined benefit pension, a public sector defined benefit. 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:36.000 This is yes, this is the dream. This is the 0:00:36.760 --> 0:00:39.320 financial Holy greal it exists. 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.600 It does. Tell us about it. Tell us about the dream. 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:44.680 What do you wake up at night thinking, Oh, indexing, 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:46.560 indexing with no cap. 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:54.200 Uncapped indexing, the permanent backing of whatever government is in power, 0:00:54.520 --> 0:01:00.760 regardless of the flavor of government in our was it 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:04.800 can a no investment risk at all. I'd never have 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:08.280 to bloody we'll think about whether UK stocks were cheap 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:09.800 or not, or if they were ever going to not 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:13.200 be cheap anymore. I say, you're right, I'm standing. I'm 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:15.160 going to wake up thinking about this tonight that I've 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:16.240 started thing about it. 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:17.760 This is terrible joking. 0:01:17.800 --> 0:01:19.800 When I said, I thought, you did I do? I 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:22.720 do wake up at two o'clock, you know, most nights, 0:01:22.720 --> 0:01:24.360 and this is just not an age thing. I wake 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:26.880 up a two'clock most like thinking, oh God, I wish 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:30.680 I had a d be just the idea that the 0:01:30.920 --> 0:01:34.440 money would come in every single month when there was inflation, 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:36.520 it would come a little bigger, a little bigger, little bigger, 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:38.399 little bigger. You never had to send takes that said 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:40.720 to yourself, oh God, how do I make that diverse 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.160 portfolio of global equities produce a little more yield to 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.520 keep me up with inflation? Never have to think that 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:50.640 right now, there is a possibility, is a possibility that 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:53.600 come the next government, assuming it's a lab government. Although 0:01:53.640 --> 0:01:55.360 interesting me I went to a talk yesterday. I'll tell 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.240 you about another time in which one of the one 0:01:57.240 --> 0:01:59.360 of the speakers suggested that it wasn't the slam dunk 0:01:59.400 --> 0:02:02.320 we all think of it. So that's interesting. But assuming 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:03.800 that it is a slam dunk and that we are 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:06.000 going to have a labor government, they are talking about 0:02:06.120 --> 0:02:10.920 reinstating the lifetime allowance on pensions, So most people, and 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:16.000 that will definitely include you and me, will have a 0:02:16.040 --> 0:02:19.240 cap on the amount of money they can have insider 0:02:19.360 --> 0:02:21.240 pension wrapper tax free. 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.320 But there is one group of people, one group of 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:30.079 people for whom that will not on current suggestions, one 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:32.480 group of people for whom that will not be true. 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:34.040 Who are these lucky people? 0:02:34.919 --> 0:02:38.480 I can't imagine. But is it the public sector to 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.240 find benefit pension receives. 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:44.840 So a really big deal, this idea that you can 0:02:45.000 --> 0:02:49.120 divide people up and give one group of people very 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:53.560 very preferential treatment over another when it comes to retirement income. 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:54.160 It's a big deal. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.520 Yeah, No, it's myself, and it would be completely out 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:02.200 of order. The one reason that my immediate instinct was, Nah, 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:04.720 there's no way. You can't just turn around and say 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:09.040 we're going to reimpose the LTA for non public sector workers. 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.959 We're going to carve out the public sector. But the 0:03:12.000 --> 0:03:14.200 problem is that so they're already is a group of 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:18.720 public sector workers who aren't aren't basically because they were 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.720 so well paid even when the LTA was first introduced. 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:27.560 So the judges pension is not libel for the lifetime allowance. 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:30.160 And because the way this works with the public sector 0:03:30.240 --> 0:03:33.360 is that obviously final salary, i'd find benefit pensions came 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:35.760 is where you get a cetin amount of money each 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.720 year based on your lifetime salary. And the way that 0:03:40.080 --> 0:03:43.600 the tax Office, very broadly speaking works out how much 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:46.800 that is worth for LTA purposes is multiplying it by twenty. 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:51.440 Now that already means that actually the public sector workers 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.880 get to earn more before the you know, the company 0:03:54.920 --> 0:03:57.839 of the LTA because in practice twenty is actually very 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:02.040 low multiple compared to work. They can have private sector 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:05.040 version would be or the fine contribution version would be. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:07.440 But yeah, so the judges already had a carve out 0:04:07.480 --> 0:04:09.840 for this. And the main reason that the lt has 0:04:09.880 --> 0:04:12.680 become such a big issue in recent years is because 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:17.400 obviously it's gone down, whereas can the doctors and surgeons 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.400 salaries have gotten up over time, you know, with inflation 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:24.440 or less inflation whatever, And so they came about this 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:29.720 whole streamsh where you know, surgeons were kind of light working, 0:04:29.880 --> 0:04:33.800 but then they would get hit with can attacks charities 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:37.920 based on basically because the the defined benefit pensions had 0:04:38.000 --> 0:04:41.360 become so generous that the ports were so high. And 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.680 the point is that the government shouldn't be pre playing favorites. 0:04:44.480 --> 0:04:47.960 Like that, right job, given that given that what's your 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:51.640 what's your personal finance tip for the weak? I don't 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:53.280 know what mine is. It's a go back, go back 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:55.160 saut he is and join the civil service. But you know, 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:56.680 maybe you have a better one. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.000 In the absence of time travel. 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:00.520 Yeah. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:04.479 Basically we talk about diversification by asset class, well you 0:05:04.520 --> 0:05:08.120 need diversify by financial vehicle as well. In the UK, 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:11.719 it's pretty simple. You know, there's the state pension which 0:05:11.720 --> 0:05:13.720 you may or may not kind of get the full 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:15.839 benefit of that depend what age you are now and 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.000 what happens between now and when you retire. There's a 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.560 private pension or I to find benefit pension. If you 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.680 haven't have a private pension or a dB pension that's 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.440 a corporate one, then again you need to consider diversifying 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:30.720 away from that. And the other thing is the ISA. 0:05:31.320 --> 0:05:36.240 So basically, if you don't have enough money to fill 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.400 up your annual pension allowance and your annualize it allowance, 0:05:39.480 --> 0:05:41.239 then what to do is make sure that you split 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.400 it between the two of them, rather than necessarily favoring 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.120 one over the other. Where I would favor the pension 0:05:47.240 --> 0:05:49.880 is if you haven't maxed out your auto enrollmance game. 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.760 Make sure you do that because it's free money from 0:05:52.760 --> 0:05:56.760 your employer. And also if you're on one of those 0:05:56.760 --> 0:06:00.400 marginal horrible bits like fifty thousand before the child benefit 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.520 high income tax kicks in, you want to do salary 0:06:03.520 --> 0:06:05.599 sacrifice there, and at one hundred thousands you want to 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:08.400 do salary sacrifice. Otherwise, I would basically go fifty to 0:06:08.440 --> 0:06:12.440 fifty because at least the eyes that you can get 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.039 your money out straight away, So even if they do 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:17.560 fiddle with it, which it probably won't, then you can 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:19.800 get the money out and move it elsewhere. 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:21.600 Less likely to fill with ices, right, because we will 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:25.040 understand ices. Everyone understands ane, simple and straightforward. We love them. 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.400 You mess around with them, we notice. 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:29.560 And the money's not trapped. I mean, that is the 0:06:29.600 --> 0:06:31.800 thing about your pension. The money is trapped. It's a 0:06:31.839 --> 0:06:33.919 good thing. You know, we should be able to saving 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:36.200 it with confidence, but you know, you just need to look. 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.440 I mean they're talking about the lifetime allowance. It didn't 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.760 exist until two thousand and six, and when it was 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:43.880 introduced it was one point five million, and at one 0:06:43.960 --> 0:06:46.240 point there was one point eight million, and then they 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.480 then they reduced it rather than reason it so that 0:06:48.960 --> 0:06:54.840 it's you just can't trust in stability of regulation. 0:06:57.320 --> 0:06:59.520 Welcome to Maron Talks Money the podcast and with people 0:06:59.520 --> 0:07:02.680 don't know the markets, Explain the Markets. I'm Marenzumzetweb. This 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.040 week the conversation with author Tim Marshall. You might have 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:07.760 heard me mention his name and previous podcasts referencing one 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.240 of his books. He's written eight fantastic titles, but I 0:07:10.280 --> 0:07:13.280 am a particular fan of Prisoners of Geography and most 0:07:13.320 --> 0:07:16.240 recently The Future of Geography. We focus most of our 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:18.520 conversation on this one, The Future of Geography, because it 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.320 looks at how power and politics in space will change 0:07:21.360 --> 0:07:26.120 our world, in fact, are already changing our world. Tim, 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.560 thank you so much for joining us today. Hugely appreciate it. 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:33.440 Thank you. It's an honor, good good, Right. 0:07:33.640 --> 0:07:36.120 What I want to talk about is space. My producer says, 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:38.680 I'm mildly obsessed with space and people who talk about space, 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:41.520 and the truth is that I am. And you've written 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.280 a phenomenal book on this that opens up the world 0:07:44.280 --> 0:07:46.960 of space to everybody, and if you haven't read it, listeners, 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:49.920 I strongly strongly suggest that you do do so this week, 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:54.000 because you really need to know about this. So let's start, Tim, 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.040 if you could just set the scene for us and 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:57.920 tell me. I want to get onto the future of 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:01.040 space and everything that is going to happen interpace. But 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:05.480 what's happening right now, what's the relationship between Earth and 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:07.320 all that place sixty miles above us? 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.920 It's space race two point zero because there is now 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:14.040 a rationale to go back. I'll try and be brief, 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.920 but Apollo eleven brought some rocks back, and sty twelve 0:08:16.960 --> 0:08:20.720 and fourteen and fifteen and sixteen and seventeen, and then 0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:24.280 the Americans said enough rocks, and they pulled the plug 0:08:25.200 --> 0:08:28.880 fifty years ago. And now we're going back, not just 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.240 to the Moon but near the Moon and geosynchronous orbit 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:35.600 and low Earth orbit because it is now well worth it. 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.240 We've gone back and are going back in greater numbers 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:43.200 because financially, low Earth orbit is hugely profitable for the 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:46.640 satellite companies. You know, we've seen this sort of expotential growth. 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.120 There's eight thousand satellites and now there's going to be 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:51.840 more than well over thirty thousand with just in five 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:58.240 or six years. Geosynchronous orbit becomes ever more important, and 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:01.960 we're going back to the Moon, because we've a found water. 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:04.520 When I say we, I mean humans. We've found water, 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.800 which means it's potential to put a base there. And 0:09:10.120 --> 0:09:13.880 we found lugonite and lithium and all sorts of those 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:17.840 lovely metals that everybody needs for twenty first century technology. 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.640 So there is now a Klondike gold rush going on, 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:24.160 and just as in Klondike, most people won't make any 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:24.760 money out of it. 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:28.800 How we go back too. I really want to come 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:30.760 on this gold rush, and I really want to come 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.600 on for lithium and helium and all these wonderful things. 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:37.960 But first I want to nail down the what's going 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:41.320 on with satellites, and could you also please quickly explain 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:45.160 I think everyone understand is instinctively just in case geosynthesis orbit. 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.199 Lower th orbit is where most of the satellites are, 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:52.760 around about eight thousand, three hundred or so defunct ones, 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:55.760 and they're the ones that spin around the world very 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.640 very fast. So if you've got one, let's say you 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:04.839 a spy, for example, it'll only be over the bit 0:10:04.880 --> 0:10:06.520 of territory you want to look at for a couple 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.000 of hours. So you can put a constellation of these 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.319 things up which connect to each other, and you can 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.480 try and have a greater amount of the Earth that 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.199 you can communicate with or look at. But geosynchronous orbit 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:23.000 much higher up. That orbit turns at the same speed 0:10:23.200 --> 0:10:25.600 that the Earth turns, so if you put a satellite there, 0:10:26.800 --> 0:10:29.760 it's always over the same piece of territory. So whether 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:32.960 it's communications satellite, they can always have direct line of 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:39.280 sight if you like, or a spy satellite or your 0:10:39.400 --> 0:10:42.560 nuclear early warning codes to make sure that they're so 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:44.760 far away nobody can hit them. Because we can hit 0:10:44.840 --> 0:10:48.240 satellites in low earth orbit from the Earth. That's a 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:53.160 very very valuable piece of real estate. And I call 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:58.400 it that because it is geography, not in the classic sense, 0:10:58.440 --> 0:11:01.240 but it's geography, and that is an area, and it's 0:11:01.280 --> 0:11:05.880 a finite area. And when you put a satellite up there, 0:11:06.640 --> 0:11:10.040 it needs to have a very wide beam coming down 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.920 to Earth because it's so high up, and so consequently 0:11:13.280 --> 0:11:15.800 you can only have so many there, so it's first come, 0:11:15.840 --> 0:11:17.559 first served. That's geosynchronous orbit. 0:11:17.960 --> 0:11:21.040 So we've got around eight thousand satellites up there at 0:11:21.040 --> 0:11:25.319 the moment in that zone. We're another twenty something thousand 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:29.520 coming and what are they all doing At the moment. 0:11:29.720 --> 0:11:32.160 They pretty much control every aspect of our lives, right 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:34.880 these satellites. We don't think about that, but if the 0:11:34.920 --> 0:11:37.800 satellites disappeared tomorrow, so would what we consider to be 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:38.560 normal life. 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:40.560 Is that that I think it's a strong cast to 0:11:40.559 --> 0:11:41.800 be made for it, and a strong cast to be 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:45.360 made that the satellite should be considered untreated as part 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:48.600 of our critical security infrastructure. You know, the way that 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:53.400 gas and water electric supplies are because there is a 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:57.520 backup plan that we do have deep water undersea cables 0:11:58.000 --> 0:12:01.439 which could still send Internet signals and you could get 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.360 your fax machines out of the office dump if the 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:08.280 satellites went down, but it would be an almighty blow 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:10.400 to the world economy or to the economy of a 0:12:10.440 --> 0:12:15.000 country whose system went down, massive, massive financial loss. We 0:12:15.080 --> 0:12:17.040 just think of the GPS. I mean, how is the 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.959 delivery driver going to get to the supermarket with the food, 0:12:20.000 --> 0:12:22.240 et cetera. So I think they should be so a 0:12:22.240 --> 0:12:24.000 lot of them are doing that. A lot of them 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:30.240 are just doing straightforward comms, whether it's telephone communications or TV. 0:12:32.080 --> 0:12:38.160 So they just are part of the modern world. It's 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.400 the reason, that's the reason it's such a growth industry. 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:42.760 I mean allegedly it'll be in a trillion dollar a 0:12:42.880 --> 0:12:45.800 year industry. Now not to Blomberg, that's kind of like 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:49.600 loose change, but you know, trillion dollars a year, that's 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:53.079 quite a big industry and set to grow. 0:12:53.480 --> 0:12:56.840 And it's interesting, isn't it, because that is that's private money. 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:58.640 You know, we used to think of space as being 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.439 a public place. In the old space race was between governments. 0:13:02.480 --> 0:13:04.640 This was in particular between near the US government and 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:07.520 the Soviet Union, and they were battling it out to 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:10.280 try and prove that, you know, capitalisms better than communism 0:13:10.440 --> 0:13:12.720 or that was basically wasn't it, Look we can do 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:14.520 this vastrup, we can do this quicker because we're a 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:15.400 better society. 0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:15.840 Right. 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.080 So it was a very public space in the first round, 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.280 and now it's a very private space. Most of these satellites, 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:25.760 these are not military satellites, they're or government satellites. They're 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:29.559 owned by private companies. They're launched by private companies from 0:13:29.800 --> 0:13:34.240 private space station. So it's a very different world up there. 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:38.439 So when you talk about it being a geography, it's 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.720 less a public geography than private geography. And we don't 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:43.360 know who belongs. 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.160 To Ah, good word belongs to. 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:53.160 You because the infrastructure belongs to who does the infrastructure 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:54.440 belong to us? 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:59.760 Us? How well, allegedly it's the commons. It's the out 0:13:59.800 --> 0:14:01.880 of space Commons, just like we have the global Commons 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:03.840 where the ocean waves are for all of us. But 0:14:04.280 --> 0:14:07.160 I'm glad you've brought this thing up about commercial because 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.280 that's one of the biggest differences between the previous space 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:16.360 race and now in how front and center private enterprise 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:20.280 is within it, both in partnership with governments and out 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:24.880 there on their own. And that is also another reason 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:32.040 why this concept of the global commons is really frayed. 0:14:32.440 --> 0:14:35.960 I mean, it's enshrined in the Outer Space Treaty of 0:14:36.000 --> 0:14:41.680 nineteen sixty seven, which basically says no one country didn't 0:14:41.680 --> 0:14:45.000 bother putting a company in because in nineteen sixty seven 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.280 nobody thought there would be companies out there. No one 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:50.640 country can have sovereignty over any part of space, whether 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.880 it's the moon, the planets, or just the area has 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:58.000 been between them. But that's really fraying now, and it's 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.120 first come, first served in its you know, wear out, 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:05.240 they're back off, and there's even something in the Artemis Accords, 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:07.200 which is the American led effort to get back to 0:15:07.240 --> 0:15:09.920 the Moon and then establish a base where you can 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:13.520 establish a security zone on the Moon, which sounds to 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.720 me like sovereignty just you know, the same letter at 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:18.200 the beginning, just a different spelling. 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.120 And how big can your security zone be? 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:24.640 Well, again, it's the languages. 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:25.640 Big enough to make you feel secure. 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:29.080 Yeah, the language is loose enough for it. And also 0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.200 for how long can you establish the security zone? Also 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:37.600 very very loose language. Yeah, they are driving it and 0:15:37.920 --> 0:15:42.960 they have allowed well, the governments have allowed, especially the Americans, 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:47.320 private enterprise in many ways to lead the way. And 0:15:47.360 --> 0:15:52.280 it's private enterprise and its capacity for risk elon Musk 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:57.520 SpaceX being the greatest example where they have risked all 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:02.480 that money, for example in the SpaceX rockets and being 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.520 able to bring them back and land them. That is 0:16:05.560 --> 0:16:08.760 revolutionary technology which came out of SpaceX. It didn't come 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:12.200 out of NASA. So this is a very new and 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:16.120 different time. I mean there's the new different military aspect 0:16:16.640 --> 0:16:18.720 in which commerce is playing a role as well. So 0:16:19.280 --> 0:16:22.160 it really is very different to the sixties and seventies. 0:16:22.160 --> 0:16:25.760 And I would argue more complex and more dangerous. And 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:31.760 what existing guidelines because they're not really laws, because international 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:37.160 laws are not always laws. We just call them that 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.840 they're guidelines. And those guidelines are when they were written, 0:16:41.840 --> 0:16:44.880 were okay. They're not okay anymore in the twenty first century. 0:16:45.720 --> 0:16:51.080 Are you worried about the influent that very wealthy individuals 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.200 and companies will have over the way our interaction with 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.200 space develops. Is that going to be a. 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.720 Problem, possibly up to a point, I don't know. Worried 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:01.960 about what governments do as well. You know, it's always 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:07.480 good to keep a bd on both sets. But I mean, 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.040 it was very fashionable twenty years ago and has been 0:17:10.040 --> 0:17:12.080 ever since to write off the nation state and have 0:17:12.240 --> 0:17:15.480 always argued against this. If someone's burgling your house, you're 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:20.199 not gonna call meta or TikTok that matter, or if 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:26.439 the Russians invade and if I mean, if individual X 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.919 space X wants to launch a rocket, they have to 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:33.119 have a license. You know, it's like a plane. You 0:17:33.119 --> 0:17:34.800 can't just take off a land wherever you want. You 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:36.520 have to have a license, and that comes from the state. 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:41.200 So the state ultimately would retain a degree of control. 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:45.240 But yes, in so far as you know, it is 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:48.840 not good if one particular person owns too much media. 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.960 It's not if there's a cartel that's got to get 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:58.520 you know, these things do need monitoring. But I do 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:03.320 think that the governments will contain most of the licensing control, 0:18:03.800 --> 0:18:07.639 and therefore there's a degree of open actual control. By 0:18:07.680 --> 0:18:13.520 the way, Mosque in the Starlink Internet Terms and Conditions 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.480 that you sign now in twenty twenty four, it says, 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.879 in the event in the future that you are using 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:23.320 our kit on Mars and you have any legal issues, 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.359 you will not refer to any earthbound government or legal entity. 0:18:27.600 --> 0:18:32.800 You will only take your dispute up with the legal 0:18:32.960 --> 0:18:36.879 entity on Mars, which I read to be elon Musk. 0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:42.920 So we have a situation where we've got a total 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:48.640 creeper awl up there with private and public with satellites, 0:18:48.680 --> 0:18:51.480 with no one being entirely sure which part of this 0:18:51.600 --> 0:18:54.240 geography above us belongs to them or could belong to them, 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:56.960 and everyone grappling for space because there's got to be 0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.320 a limited amount of space in space and certainly in orbit, 0:19:01.359 --> 0:19:04.439 particularly now there's lots of defunct satellites in debris and 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:07.679 or this kind of thing. So there's a limit to 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.640 how much can be done in this close orbit area, right. 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:16.199 Yes, because I mean, obviously it is an enormous amount 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:21.960 of space. I think the distance between low Earth orbit, 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:25.240 which is one hundred miles up, and then geosynchronist allbit, 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:29.239 which is several hundred miles further higher up. But of 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.000 course that's in a three hundred and sixty degree circle, 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.640 and it's something forgive me if I've got the figures wrong, 0:19:34.640 --> 0:19:37.679 but it's three thousand times bigger than the surface of 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:40.879 the Earth. You know, there's a lot of space in space, 0:19:42.960 --> 0:19:47.360 but the actual orbits themselves, you know, we've already got 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.119 as I said, eight thousand, it's going to be thirty thousands. 0:19:50.119 --> 0:19:52.320 Some people put say fifty sixty thousand. I mean the 0:19:52.400 --> 0:19:54.800 Chinese are going to launch, the Musk is going to 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:58.560 launch ten thousand in the next few years. And so 0:19:58.720 --> 0:20:03.480 although you of physically could fit even more than that 0:20:03.960 --> 0:20:06.879 in that big circle, the fact is the closer they 0:20:06.920 --> 0:20:09.399 are together, not only is the more danger of them 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:11.760 crashing into each other. And then if one crashes into 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:13.919 another one, then another one, then another one, you get 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:17.959 something called the Kessler syndrome where they all crash so 0:20:18.240 --> 0:20:22.560 it adds to that danger. But it's also the military 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:27.040 aspect to it, where countries get pretty nervous if other 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:31.160 satellites are getting very close to theirs, you know you're 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.800 going to try and crash into it. Satellites some of 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:35.840 them now can have grappling arms them, You're going to 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:40.960 grapple into my satellite. So this is go back to 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.400 this thing about law. There needs to be a new 0:20:43.440 --> 0:20:47.160 global agreement and one aspect of many many that needs 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:49.440 to be now written in the new age is how 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:53.680 close can your satellite go to mine? And or how 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:56.480 many inspections can we agree that you can inspect my 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:58.800 satellite and I can inspect your satellite to make sure 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:01.480 you haven't got something areus on it? We just don't 0:21:01.520 --> 0:21:03.920 have these laws, and so that's why there's this finite 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:05.639 amount of space. And then if you go higher up 0:21:05.680 --> 0:21:09.880 to geosynchronous, as I said, there's so much boundwidth needed 0:21:10.400 --> 0:21:15.040 in the sort of pyramid coming down as you're broadcasting 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:18.800 downwards that you can only have so many and therefore 0:21:18.880 --> 0:21:21.560 it's first come, first served, and so if you're not 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:24.199 there now or in the near future, you're never going 0:21:24.280 --> 0:21:24.720 to be there. 0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:29.040 Okay, stupid question. When a satellite just defunct, do we 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:32.080 remove them with these grappling arms, or when we finished 0:21:32.160 --> 0:21:33.840 using new satellite, we just let us say up, they're 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.240 forever going round and around the circles and potentially bumping 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:36.920 into other people. 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:40.840 Not a stupid question at all. And in fact, when 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.439 I was doing the research and interviewing the experts, I 0:21:43.520 --> 0:21:46.720 thought the thing that they would be most concerned about 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.480 was war in space, and it's not. It's debris in space, 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.600 and that includes defunct satellites of which there are hundreds. Now, 0:21:52.640 --> 0:21:56.280 some of them are on a trajectory where each time 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.119 they go around the Earth they get slightly lower slight. 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:02.320 I mean, it can take years, but eventually, if they're 0:22:02.320 --> 0:22:04.440 on that trajectory, they come into the atmosphere and they 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.360 burn up, flame up, and disintegrate. So there's no more 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:11.879 of that in space, but others don't and they're still 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:16.159 evolving around there. Then there are literally hundreds of thousands 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:18.200 of pieces of metal, you know, some of the size 0:22:18.240 --> 0:22:20.320 of a tennis ball, some of the size of a grape, 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.840 some you know, tiny, but there's hundreds of thousands of them, 0:22:24.960 --> 0:22:29.880 and they're being removed at an extraordinarily slow rate. You 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.280 can get hold of a satellite and throw it down 0:22:32.280 --> 0:22:35.200 into the atmosphere or throw it up into deep space. 0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:39.240 But the fact is that the more and more stuff 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:41.159 are putting there, the more and more debris there's going 0:22:41.200 --> 0:22:42.800 to be in, the more and more danger there is. 0:22:42.840 --> 0:22:46.399 So the Japanese and i'd say the Europeans are probably 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:50.480 the two world leaders in pioneering new technologies to try 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:52.359 to do something about this. I mean, I know it 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:54.439 sounds sci fi, but so much of the stuff that 0:22:54.480 --> 0:22:57.000 I came across I thought was sci fib that is 0:22:57.040 --> 0:23:01.000 happening now. As well as grappling armsatellites can have actually 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:04.840 like massive fishing nets, and they just throw these fishing 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:09.159 nets out and catch hundreds and hundreds of pieces of debris, 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:12.439 bring them all down and either throw them into the 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:15.640 atmosphere or they can even bring them back. But that's 0:23:15.680 --> 0:23:18.439 how all this stuff is happening. But it's not happening 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:19.160 fast enough. 0:23:20.800 --> 0:23:23.280 Let me take you back to the second biggest worry. Then. 0:23:23.320 --> 0:23:26.640 If the first biggest is debris, the second biggest is war. 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:30.480 Space war. That's just us lasering each other's satellites. It's 0:23:30.680 --> 0:23:33.280 shooting each other satellites down from the Earth, which you 0:23:33.359 --> 0:23:37.240 desaid was possible and fascinating, or we're talking about something bigger. 0:23:37.240 --> 0:23:40.000 We're talking about colonizing the Moon and then having a 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:41.000 little ram me up there. 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:45.199 Well, yeah, that's that's coming, and that could I'll try 0:23:45.240 --> 0:23:46.760 and come back to the artemis. Of course, if I 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:52.679 remember right now, four countries have already done this. They 0:23:52.680 --> 0:23:55.840 have launched a ballistic missile from the surface of the 0:23:55.880 --> 0:23:57.879 Earth and they've hit one of their own satellites in 0:23:57.920 --> 0:23:59.760 space and blown it up to test if they can 0:23:59.840 --> 0:24:01.760 do in case they need to do it against somebody 0:24:01.760 --> 0:24:06.160 else's satellite, and that is Russia, China, USA and India. 0:24:06.400 --> 0:24:09.920 So that technology exists, and of course it would be 0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:12.680 an act of war to blow someone else's satellite up. 0:24:12.800 --> 0:24:14.760 So that's the first thing that has already happened, and 0:24:14.800 --> 0:24:19.719 I'm sure other people are working on it. Secondly, Elon 0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:26.920 Musk's SpaceX as a side company Staralink and Starlink, provides 0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:31.320 Internet services via satellite and two years ago, when parts 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:36.320 of the Ukrainian Internet went down because of the ground 0:24:36.320 --> 0:24:39.840 stations were bombed, the comp stations Musk flew by the Russians. 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:43.880 Russian Musk flew in thousands and thousands of dishes which 0:24:43.920 --> 0:24:46.159 could connect to Stalin, and he got the parts of 0:24:46.200 --> 0:24:50.400 the Internet back up and running. Great for civilian purposes, 0:24:50.440 --> 0:24:53.080 but of course the Ukrainian military jumped on it and 0:24:53.200 --> 0:24:56.320 used it to target Russian soldiers, at which point the 0:24:56.400 --> 0:25:04.000 Kremlin ordered the Russian anti satellite units to open fire. 0:25:04.280 --> 0:25:07.960 Is a loose term, but you can dazzle a satellite 0:25:07.960 --> 0:25:11.560 from the Earth. I don't think you can yet destroy 0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:14.080 it with a laser bee because we have clouds atmosphere 0:25:14.160 --> 0:25:15.640 rain it diffuses the signal. 0:25:15.960 --> 0:25:18.159 Hang on, what does that mean to dazzle a satellite? 0:25:18.880 --> 0:25:21.040 Sorry, well, you send a beam of light up basically 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:24.720 at its lens and dazzle it so it can't see you. Now, 0:25:25.040 --> 0:25:29.680 you don't destroy the lens because many satellites lenses can blink. 0:25:29.720 --> 0:25:31.760 You know, they close if there's too much light coming 0:25:31.760 --> 0:25:35.240 in and or you send you spoof them. Spoofing is 0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:39.720 sending up packets of information to the satellite, which confuses 0:25:39.760 --> 0:25:42.560 it and so it doesn't know where to send its signal. 0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:45.760 And so Musk and Putin have been playing this cat 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:48.600 and mouse game for the last couple of years, which 0:25:48.640 --> 0:25:52.720 is a brand new thing in warfare. Two sovereign countries 0:25:52.720 --> 0:25:57.280 at war with a third element in it, which is 0:25:57.359 --> 0:26:01.680 not a state but a private company, which is inadvertently 0:26:01.680 --> 0:26:04.879 assisting one side's military, causing the other sized military to 0:26:04.920 --> 0:26:07.920 take what is essentially military action against it. I mean, 0:26:08.000 --> 0:26:10.040 this is a new time and it's something we're going 0:26:10.119 --> 0:26:10.760 to have to get used to it. 0:26:10.840 --> 0:26:15.320 That's a second moment, and that when that private company 0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:18.720 is associated with a third sovereign nation that is not 0:26:18.960 --> 0:26:20.080 technically involved in. 0:26:20.040 --> 0:26:23.639 The war exactly, although is you know, clearly involved, but 0:26:23.760 --> 0:26:27.920 not directly. And so if it's dazzled, is that an 0:26:27.960 --> 0:26:32.240 attack a day factor attack also in the United States 0:26:32.280 --> 0:26:34.679 attacking an American company, So you know, I mean obviously 0:26:34.760 --> 0:26:37.600 Americans just coughed politely and pretended not to notice too 0:26:37.680 --> 0:26:39.879 much because you know, they don't want to fight Russia. 0:26:41.600 --> 0:26:45.200 So third way, you may have seen a couple weeks 0:26:45.240 --> 0:26:47.679 ago the Brits of god a new laser weapon to 0:26:47.680 --> 0:26:50.560 take down drones. The Americans pioneered a couple of years ago. 0:26:50.880 --> 0:26:53.400 Now nobody's put one of those onto a satellite, because 0:26:53.440 --> 0:26:55.879 if you did, you could suit shoot down a satellite 0:26:56.680 --> 0:26:58.879 from a satellite very very easily. Because of course it 0:26:58.920 --> 0:27:01.639 would be so powerful up there because it wouldn't be 0:27:01.640 --> 0:27:04.959 diffused through the atmosphere. Now no one has because if 0:27:05.000 --> 0:27:06.879 you do, you're going to spark an arms race. But 0:27:07.160 --> 0:27:11.800 the temptation too has got to be great. And then 0:27:11.840 --> 0:27:15.600 the last bit will be, well, there's this whole spoofing 0:27:15.680 --> 0:27:19.080 dazzling thing. If there is ever a major war between 0:27:19.080 --> 0:27:21.520 major countries, will immediately come into play. I mean, I 0:27:21.560 --> 0:27:25.280 put a couple of scenarios in the book about China 0:27:25.320 --> 0:27:28.480 basically falls the United States by dazzling. It's ones that 0:27:28.520 --> 0:27:31.040 are over the South China Sea looks like they're going 0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:33.359 to attack Taiwan. They actually don't. They do something else. 0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:36.520 It doesn't matter. But that's the sort of potential future. Sorry, 0:27:36.680 --> 0:27:39.400 last bit we mentioned the Artemist Accords, We mentioned these 0:27:39.440 --> 0:27:43.439 safety zones. Well, what if Country X, which is an 0:27:43.480 --> 0:27:46.200 ally of America or America has already got to the moon, 0:27:46.640 --> 0:27:49.800 found the best place to start drilling for the limited 0:27:49.840 --> 0:27:53.520 amount of lithium there is there, and another country comes 0:27:53.560 --> 0:27:59.199 along and says, not your moon, We're gonna dig here 0:27:59.200 --> 0:28:00.840 as well. And they're going to say, hang on, we 0:28:00.880 --> 0:28:05.360 spent billions investing in this go away you know. I mean, 0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:08.600 people say that this is kind of a bit outlandish, 0:28:08.640 --> 0:28:10.479 but all you've got to do is look at history. 0:28:10.600 --> 0:28:13.120 What all you got to do is look at let's say, 0:28:13.440 --> 0:28:16.159 the British Empire and the companies that went out ahead 0:28:16.160 --> 0:28:20.239 of them, East India Company being the best example, and 0:28:20.280 --> 0:28:23.119 then following on from that, it becomes so useful that 0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:27.399 the British military then follows in and becomes involved. I 0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:30.440 just think it's very hard to see how that sort 0:28:30.520 --> 0:28:33.439 of tension will not be there in the future. As 0:28:33.640 --> 0:28:36.479 I said, I'm not convinced that the economics of mining 0:28:36.520 --> 0:28:41.600 the Moon makes sense, but as I've brought that up, 0:28:41.640 --> 0:28:44.680 I will briefly say why I think it might happen 0:28:44.680 --> 0:28:48.760 any way. Okay, because I don't think a nation state 0:28:49.440 --> 0:28:51.680 or even a major energy company can really take the 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:55.360 risk that this might be one of the most profitable 0:28:55.400 --> 0:28:58.240 things in the twenty first century, but we're not going 0:28:58.280 --> 0:29:01.600 to take that risk. I think that will even though 0:29:01.600 --> 0:29:04.680 the economics is not there, I think they'll be investment 0:29:04.720 --> 0:29:05.000 in it. 0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:07.000 I love it that the risk is not going to 0:29:07.040 --> 0:29:10.760 the moon, but not going to the moon. That's a 0:29:10.800 --> 0:29:12.800 fascinating datement about our new world. 0:29:13.680 --> 0:29:17.600 Yeah, the Chinese, said the chief scientist in their Moon mission, 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:20.560 because they intend, like the Americans, to have a base 0:29:20.600 --> 0:29:24.440 by twenty thirty two, which you know will almost certainly slip. 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:29.160 But that's the ambition, he said. If we don't go 0:29:29.600 --> 0:29:33.080 and it turns out this is where the riches are, 0:29:33.320 --> 0:29:35.520 our children and grandchildren will never forgive us. I mean 0:29:35.520 --> 0:29:39.080 that that's the mindset which I think will overcome the 0:29:39.080 --> 0:29:44.840 financial risk. And I'll give you an example. There are 0:29:44.920 --> 0:29:49.440 private companies that have signed up with NASA, and NASA 0:29:49.440 --> 0:29:53.400 will pay them one dollar for each x pounds of 0:29:53.480 --> 0:29:56.480 rocks they bring back one dollar. So what's in it 0:29:56.520 --> 0:30:01.000 for the companies? You get the low license from NASA 0:30:01.080 --> 0:30:04.680 to do it, to launch to land, You set the 0:30:04.720 --> 0:30:08.440 precedent that we're the ones operating here, and NASA set 0:30:08.480 --> 0:30:13.360 the legal precedent that you can get something from the Moon, 0:30:13.400 --> 0:30:16.520 bring it back, and sell it. Because that's an important 0:30:16.520 --> 0:30:19.480 point because if the Outer Space Treaty says you can't 0:30:19.520 --> 0:30:22.520 have sovereignty, well wouldn't that even apply to a rock. 0:30:23.280 --> 0:30:25.800 If you can't have sovereignty, how can you own that rock? 0:30:26.000 --> 0:30:27.760 And if you don't own it, how can you sell it? 0:30:28.120 --> 0:30:31.680 So that's why just for a dollar people are prepared 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:33.960 to and that sort of thing is already happening. 0:30:35.040 --> 0:30:37.120 So the fact that you can sell it establishes the 0:30:37.160 --> 0:30:39.520 fact that it is possible legally to own it. 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:43.920 Yeah, yeah, not according to the out of Space Treaty. 0:30:43.960 --> 0:30:47.440 But much as I love it and think it needs enforcing, 0:30:47.640 --> 0:30:49.920 who cares about that? It's the Klondact guld rush. 0:30:50.040 --> 0:30:53.000 Okay, So let's move away from the possibility of war, 0:30:53.040 --> 0:30:55.640 because I think we talk about that in so many 0:30:55.680 --> 0:30:57.640 different contacts, and you never know that there might not 0:30:57.720 --> 0:30:59.720 be a war, right, it might at all? And amicable. 0:31:00.240 --> 0:31:03.000 Let's talk about it. Isn't they usually isn't? Excellent point? 0:31:03.040 --> 0:31:05.239 They usually isn't and when but sometimes there is. But 0:31:05.440 --> 0:31:08.200 let's assume that we're going to work all this out amicably, 0:31:08.360 --> 0:31:11.080 and there's plenty of everyone for everyone's satellites, and everyone 0:31:11.080 --> 0:31:13.080 can colonize the Moon without having too much of an 0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:15.200 argy bargie about it, and possibly even Mars. We can 0:31:15.280 --> 0:31:18.240 colonize all these things without fighting because there is plenty 0:31:18.320 --> 0:31:22.120 of space. Let's talk about all the good things that 0:31:22.200 --> 0:31:25.840 space might do for us, might improve our lives going forward. 0:31:25.880 --> 0:31:29.320 So we know at the moment, amazing for communications, amazing, 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:35.240 for GPS, amazing, for infrastructure creation, amazing for agriculture, right, 0:31:35.280 --> 0:31:38.440 I mean absolutely fantastic. Has been huge productivity advances in 0:31:38.440 --> 0:31:40.760 the agricultural sector as a result being able to use 0:31:40.920 --> 0:31:43.360 satellites to see what's going on with your land. So 0:31:43.400 --> 0:31:48.920 these are all brilliant things going forward. How is our 0:31:49.000 --> 0:31:52.360 extension of the geography of our world into space going 0:31:52.400 --> 0:31:53.920 to improve our lives? 0:31:55.720 --> 0:31:57.840 Let me count the ways, and I'm glad you've counted 0:31:57.880 --> 0:32:01.239 some of them already, because yeah, you're right. Things like 0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:04.920 agriculture are hugely important, and the satellites have massively helped, 0:32:05.000 --> 0:32:07.840 especially small scale farmers you know where to plant and when. 0:32:08.280 --> 0:32:10.640 But another one that's already happening, and I will come 0:32:10.640 --> 0:32:14.480 onto the ones that of the future. And again this 0:32:14.600 --> 0:32:17.840 is for developing countries. If you've got two or three countries, 0:32:17.880 --> 0:32:20.160 let's say in Africa, that are trying to combine their 0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:23.400 economy or link their economies, and the geography the terrain 0:32:23.440 --> 0:32:26.360 of parts of Africa is very difficult. The satellites are 0:32:26.400 --> 0:32:28.880 able to tell you exactly where to put the rail 0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:33.760 or the road links at the cheapest cost, which which 0:32:33.800 --> 0:32:38.840 which is a boon. It's already helping us measure the 0:32:38.880 --> 0:32:42.040 temperature of the oceans, which helps us to understand climate change. 0:32:42.480 --> 0:32:46.040 I think that what proof of concept has proved last 0:32:46.120 --> 0:32:51.000 year Caltech, California Technology Institute, have their own little satellite, 0:32:51.880 --> 0:32:55.320 their own little solar panel, and of course up there 0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:59.000 the solar rays are much much stronger because they're not diffused, 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:04.320 and they're seven because there's no day and night. There 0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:12.680 was no night. They managed to transfer this energy into 0:33:12.680 --> 0:33:15.480 a microwave signal and they sent it down to a dish, 0:33:16.120 --> 0:33:17.959 and then they turned it back into a package of 0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:21.840 energy and they lit a light bulb with it. Potentially 0:33:21.880 --> 0:33:26.320 revolutionary moment because if you could afford and if you 0:33:26.840 --> 0:33:29.880 could put up fields of these solar panels in space, 0:33:30.880 --> 0:33:33.920 you can now direct the energy down to where you 0:33:33.960 --> 0:33:37.920 want twenty four hours a day, unlike the solar panels 0:33:37.920 --> 0:33:40.600 at the moment, which of course I only work daylight 0:33:41.000 --> 0:33:45.200 and sun daylight, So twenty four to seven. You know 0:33:45.200 --> 0:33:46.960 it's coming down at night, and it's coming down to 0:33:46.960 --> 0:33:48.840 wherever you want to put it. You can beam it 0:33:48.880 --> 0:33:51.200 to wherever you want to put it. So this is 0:33:51.360 --> 0:33:55.360 proof of concept has been proved. Economic modeling of it 0:33:55.440 --> 0:33:57.320 then that's another thing. But it's the sort of thing 0:33:57.360 --> 0:34:02.040 that would get a help us get away from fossil fuels. 0:34:02.200 --> 0:34:04.880 So that's one thing. Another is. 0:34:06.720 --> 0:34:08.800 Yeah, and we've talked about that on this podcast before. 0:34:08.800 --> 0:34:10.160 I want so I want to stick with this energy 0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:12.880 thing for a moment because we've talked about this on 0:34:12.960 --> 0:34:15.920 this podcast before with somebody else who talked about this mirroring, 0:34:16.160 --> 0:34:19.759 mirroring of solar energy down to Earth and how she 0:34:19.880 --> 0:34:22.720 this is a doc Piper Malgram. She seemed to feel 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:27.279 that it was reasonably close and conceivable that within she 0:34:27.280 --> 0:34:28.880 didn't put a time frame on that. I should have 0:34:28.920 --> 0:34:31.960 pushed her on that conceivable that in the not too 0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:36.480 distant future all of our energy problems could be solved 0:34:36.600 --> 0:34:39.280 simply with this sort of massive beam of energy from space. 0:34:39.320 --> 0:34:42.640 And I found that incredibly compelling as an idea, given 0:34:42.640 --> 0:34:44.240 that all we seemed to do at the moment is 0:34:44.239 --> 0:34:46.600 is bitch and argue and row about different forms of 0:34:46.600 --> 0:34:49.080 hopeless energy, when there might be one out there that 0:34:49.160 --> 0:34:50.359 can just solve reing just like that. 0:34:51.000 --> 0:34:52.920 They might, I mean, and perhaps when we have time, 0:34:52.920 --> 0:34:54.000 we can go on to helium three. 0:34:54.040 --> 0:34:56.680 But we're definitely going on to helium three. Can't finish 0:34:56.719 --> 0:34:57.920 those without helium three. 0:34:59.200 --> 0:35:05.359 Life the guess yeah. I mean, look she she knows 0:35:05.360 --> 0:35:07.879 far more about it than I do. I know that 0:35:07.920 --> 0:35:12.480 the scale you would need it at would involve a 0:35:12.520 --> 0:35:15.359 lot of mining down here first and building and then 0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:18.239 lifting the panels up. You know, we're talking about big, 0:35:18.239 --> 0:35:20.480 but I mean the Japanese you know how so good 0:35:20.480 --> 0:35:22.920 they are at ore agami. They are brilliant at folding 0:35:23.160 --> 0:35:28.000 fairly large solar panels up into very small folds, sticking 0:35:28.040 --> 0:35:29.920 them in the front of a rocket, taking it up there, 0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:32.319 and then unfolding them. I mean, they are brilliant at it. 0:35:33.719 --> 0:35:38.359 Galactical origami I call it. So you can do that, 0:35:38.440 --> 0:35:41.360 but to do it at scale, the scale we're talking 0:35:41.360 --> 0:35:47.080 about enormous, and the tech and the batteries you know, 0:35:47.120 --> 0:35:50.440 I mean you wouldn't at the batteries would be relevant 0:35:50.520 --> 0:35:53.000 to this, not as relevant as they are now. I mean, 0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:54.760 one of the problems we have now is not only 0:35:54.800 --> 0:35:58.480 that it's only daylight and sundaylight. It's that we can't 0:35:58.520 --> 0:36:01.399 store any excess energy because we don't have batteries big enough. 0:36:01.440 --> 0:36:03.840 We haven't invented them. You wouldn't need them, but it 0:36:03.840 --> 0:36:05.520 would still help to storm. 0:36:05.560 --> 0:36:07.840 Well, are you died that you'd need a massive upgrade? 0:36:08.000 --> 0:36:09.839 So I don't know the time for either, but I 0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:12.560 do know the proof of concept, and it's that sort 0:36:12.600 --> 0:36:15.359 of forward thinking and revolutionary thinking I think will help us. 0:36:15.600 --> 0:36:18.239 Okay, helium three, that's going to change our world if 0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:19.560 space marrowing doesn't. 0:36:19.719 --> 0:36:22.440 All right a legend, No, there is lots on. We 0:36:22.480 --> 0:36:24.359 have helium and I hope I haven't got this wrong 0:36:24.360 --> 0:36:27.680 way around. We have helium four down here, lovely stuff 0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:31.640 from memory. It goes into balloons, you know, children's balloons. 0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:34.960 Where would we be without them? Very useful and car 0:36:35.000 --> 0:36:38.280 tires some of them certainly used to be lesson stuff 0:36:38.320 --> 0:36:42.480 like that. Hope, if you want to talk like Mickey 0:36:42.480 --> 0:36:46.799 Mouse or Donald Up, helium very useful. But helium three, 0:36:47.800 --> 0:36:51.840 a most noble gas, is in large quantities on the 0:36:51.880 --> 0:36:57.480 Moon because the songs raised there again because of lack 0:36:57.480 --> 0:37:01.160 of gravity and because of lack of atmosphere, it's very 0:37:01.239 --> 0:37:04.120 very strong. It's why there's so much radiation. Now. The 0:37:04.160 --> 0:37:08.000 thing about helium three is that in the event you 0:37:08.080 --> 0:37:13.560 crack nuclear fusion, and I hope missus Ai does, then 0:37:13.680 --> 0:37:17.719 you can use helium three, which is in tiny quantities here, 0:37:17.719 --> 0:37:21.480 but relatively large quantities on the Moon. And you can 0:37:21.600 --> 0:37:28.840 fuel the nuclear fusion reactor with cheap ish and clean 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:35.040 radiation free fuel. That's the key, the radiation free bit. 0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.440 Again the Chinese reckon there is enough of the stuff 0:37:38.440 --> 0:37:41.680 on the Moon that if you crack fusion and if 0:37:41.719 --> 0:37:44.920 you can get it back, ten thousand years worth of energy. 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:49.160 So again, these are the big thought that we need 0:37:49.200 --> 0:37:52.279 to be thinking. Some of them might happen. Oh sorry, 0:37:52.320 --> 0:37:53.960 you asked about the future and how useful it is. 0:37:54.560 --> 0:37:55.959 Yes, other stuff that is good. 0:37:56.200 --> 0:37:59.080 Yeah, you might have seen. Don't look up the film 0:37:59.080 --> 0:38:03.319 with a big meter eye. Last year dart they threw 0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:05.560 a dart. That was the name of the mission. It 0:38:05.640 --> 0:38:08.920 was basically they launched a fridge freezer at a comet 0:38:09.520 --> 0:38:13.640 at an asteroid. There's two little asteroids revolving around each 0:38:13.640 --> 0:38:15.719 other about three million miles away. We fired a fridge 0:38:15.760 --> 0:38:19.000 freezer at it. That's shorthand for a piece of metal 0:38:19.000 --> 0:38:21.840 about the same size, and it hit the smaller of 0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:24.239 the two and it deflected it off its course. Proof 0:38:24.280 --> 0:38:28.600 of concept. And we also, you know, we need that 0:38:28.640 --> 0:38:31.200 as a backup plan in case we do look up 0:38:31.200 --> 0:38:35.080 and think, oh do you. So, you know, without all this, 0:38:35.920 --> 0:38:40.000 without all this leaving to along one side, nonstick frying pans, 0:38:40.200 --> 0:38:44.400 without the space race, much of the useful tech, and 0:38:44.480 --> 0:38:48.480 including twenty first century tech would not be with US now. 0:38:48.680 --> 0:38:52.239 And I think, on balance, despite the negative sides of it, 0:38:52.440 --> 0:38:53.520 I think it's a positive. 0:38:54.880 --> 0:38:59.400 Which countries are going to be the most powerful in 0:38:59.520 --> 0:39:02.360 space in twenty five years. I mean, we can assume 0:39:02.440 --> 0:39:04.640 the US, China, Russia. 0:39:04.760 --> 0:39:07.840 I mean, you've named the big three and they will 0:39:08.520 --> 0:39:14.160 remain the Big three. But I believe that the top 0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:17.480 two will be China and the USA because they will 0:39:17.520 --> 0:39:20.000 be doing both the military and the commercial aspects. I 0:39:20.040 --> 0:39:23.719 think the structural problems that Russia has means and it's 0:39:23.760 --> 0:39:26.440 already doing this, its budget will be focused on the 0:39:26.480 --> 0:39:29.120 military side of it, so they will slightly drop away 0:39:29.120 --> 0:39:31.040 on the commercial scientific side. 0:39:31.920 --> 0:39:35.080 Okay, But then among the little guys you've got, you know, 0:39:35.120 --> 0:39:37.360 here in the UK we were talking earlier, I'm terribly 0:39:37.360 --> 0:39:40.160 excited about the Shetland Space station right which hopefully will 0:39:40.160 --> 0:39:42.880 have launches relatively soon. And I think we've got another 0:39:43.080 --> 0:39:46.160 launch station coming in Cornwall, haven't we. And then there 0:39:46.239 --> 0:39:49.640 are various other countries that are setting up launching stations. 0:39:50.480 --> 0:39:52.239 Is it Nigeria? Is that my imagination? 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:57.080 They certainly launched satellites, and the African Union has some plans. 0:39:57.480 --> 0:39:59.640 Let me come back to I mean you said little, 0:39:59.640 --> 0:40:04.160 and yeah, relative to the States, it's little, But I 0:40:04.200 --> 0:40:06.520 put it in different tiers. So there's the top three, 0:40:06.760 --> 0:40:09.520 even though it's sort of two plus one, and you 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:12.279 come down to the leading second tier countries, of which 0:40:12.320 --> 0:40:16.560 the UK is one, and France and Italy and Israel, UAE, 0:40:16.800 --> 0:40:20.120 Japan who were I put them in a block. I mean, 0:40:20.160 --> 0:40:23.040 obviously some are bigger than others, and in that block 0:40:23.120 --> 0:40:26.640 is India. But India is the one in the second 0:40:26.640 --> 0:40:31.200 tier that looks like it will accelerate. I cannot see 0:40:31.200 --> 0:40:36.439 it catching USA China even in the timeframe that you gave, 0:40:37.000 --> 0:40:42.960 but it can go ahead of that second tier. By 0:40:43.000 --> 0:40:46.040 the way, also we're talking China in America. It's their 0:40:46.080 --> 0:40:48.959 companies as well. I mean, there is going to be 0:40:49.280 --> 0:40:51.880 a Chinese SpaceX. I just don't know which of the 0:40:52.000 --> 0:40:56.320 many startups in China it will be. So then you 0:40:56.400 --> 0:41:00.200 move down the third tier, and then you talk about 0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:04.120 countries like Nigeria which make their own mini satellites. Keep 0:41:04.200 --> 0:41:07.600 satellites and send them up into little constellations, and there's 0:41:07.600 --> 0:41:10.160 a raft of them. So there's eighty countries now have 0:41:10.239 --> 0:41:13.040 a presence in space. Only a handful of them are 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:18.120 space faring, only a handful of players. And then the 0:41:18.200 --> 0:41:20.319 third tier you have a presence. And then you get 0:41:20.320 --> 0:41:22.759 the fourth tier, which is the majority of countries in 0:41:22.800 --> 0:41:25.839 the world who have no presence there at all. And 0:41:25.880 --> 0:41:31.240 given that it is finite the amount of usable space, 0:41:32.320 --> 0:41:35.239 they may never get there. So you know, I'll put 0:41:35.280 --> 0:41:35.880 into the. 0:41:37.320 --> 0:41:39.920 Four tiers, which you need to be there now if 0:41:39.960 --> 0:41:43.799 you're going to be there long term ideally. Okay, let 0:41:43.840 --> 0:41:46.239 us talk about the companies. Now, when we talk about space, 0:41:46.280 --> 0:41:49.719 we always end up talking about SpaceX. But if you 0:41:49.760 --> 0:41:52.919 were able to look twenty twenty twenty five years out, 0:41:52.920 --> 0:41:55.839 have you any sense of what the big names commercially 0:41:55.920 --> 0:41:57.600 might be out there? It might be interesting to see 0:41:57.760 --> 0:42:01.840 the big mining companies might suddenly turn up with a 0:42:01.920 --> 0:42:05.320 presence in space, right, the big energy companies might suddenly 0:42:05.360 --> 0:42:07.080 and we could suddenly turn around and find that Shell 0:42:07.120 --> 0:42:09.200 has got a colonizer moon right. 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:12.960 Well, Toyota already, I mean it's only you know, it's 0:42:12.960 --> 0:42:16.759 only on a computer. But they've already built on the 0:42:16.760 --> 0:42:21.839 computer massive moon rovers, you know, the sort of size 0:42:21.880 --> 0:42:25.760 of an articulated truck, and they're in partnership with Jackson, 0:42:25.840 --> 0:42:31.919 the Japanese Space Agency. Now you know, this truck doesn't exist, 0:42:32.080 --> 0:42:34.280 it may never exist, but the fact is that Toyota 0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:38.840 are looking at it existing. Some of the energy companies also, 0:42:38.960 --> 0:42:41.239 some of the Japanese startups have already been up trying 0:42:41.280 --> 0:42:47.600 to get some rocks. The Indians landed at the lunar 0:42:47.640 --> 0:42:49.480 South Pole, which is where the water is and most 0:42:49.520 --> 0:42:52.400 of the metals, which is thought are so if you 0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:56.560 go twenty twenty five years, what we're looking at twenty 0:42:56.600 --> 0:43:00.120 forty five, let's say, no, that's not true. Twenty fifty nearly. Yes, 0:43:00.280 --> 0:43:03.120 that's a good date, twenty fifteen, because that's the date 0:43:03.160 --> 0:43:05.120 that Mosque said he'd have a million people on the Moon, 0:43:05.160 --> 0:43:07.280 which is absolute fantasy. 0:43:07.880 --> 0:43:09.800 Is it possible, I mean, it's not going to happen, 0:43:09.880 --> 0:43:13.040 But is it conceivable ever than a million people could 0:43:13.080 --> 0:43:13.880 live on the moon. 0:43:15.480 --> 0:43:19.279 Yes, yes, yes, but twenty fifty not a I just 0:43:19.320 --> 0:43:21.279 do the math, you know, just divide a million by 0:43:21.280 --> 0:43:24.439 twenty five years. Where are these forty thousand people every 0:43:24.480 --> 0:43:28.880 year or whatever it is. So twenty fifty, I'm confident 0:43:29.040 --> 0:43:32.319 we will have we'll be mining on the moon by 0:43:32.320 --> 0:43:35.160 that point. I'm confident we'll have a moon base. As 0:43:35.160 --> 0:43:38.120 I said, twenty thirty two is the ambition a man 0:43:38.160 --> 0:43:40.160 and a woman will walk on the Moon again in 0:43:40.200 --> 0:43:43.120 twenty twenty six, in two years time, the Americans out 0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:46.120 of miss submission. I mean again, these things tend to 0:43:46.120 --> 0:43:47.919 slip thy six months or a year, but they're saying 0:43:47.920 --> 0:43:52.120 twenty twenty six walking on the Moon, which would be 0:43:52.120 --> 0:43:58.120 great for Sting's songwriting royalties. One for the older listeners, 0:43:58.120 --> 0:44:03.960 there's sorry twenty fifty, probably massive solar panels, almost certainly 0:44:03.960 --> 0:44:07.040 mine in the moon. Definitely some form of moon base, 0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:10.719 whether it's scientific, military, commercial, or a combination of the three. 0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:15.319 We will not only have got to Mars. Well, we've 0:44:15.320 --> 0:44:18.040 already got to Mars. There's several rovers roving around it already, 0:44:18.360 --> 0:44:22.200 but will have come back because they haven't really brought 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:24.480 things back from Mars yet. That will have happened. 0:44:24.520 --> 0:44:26.840 I reckon within twenty the passion has gone to Mars. 0:44:26.680 --> 0:44:31.560 And robotics are going. Robotics are going so quickly that 0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:35.799 by then we'll probably be able to send spacecraft with 0:44:35.920 --> 0:44:40.120 robots on which can begin the very beginnings of a 0:44:40.200 --> 0:44:42.160 base there. They can build it, they can three D 0:44:42.280 --> 0:44:45.680 print it. You know, they don't need oxygen, water, et cetera, 0:44:45.719 --> 0:44:48.480 et cetera. So I think all those things are feasible. 0:44:48.680 --> 0:44:50.880 But the idea that we're going to have a million 0:44:50.920 --> 0:44:55.560 people or even thousands, even hundreds on Mars in twenty 0:44:55.600 --> 0:44:57.359 five years, but. 0:44:57.400 --> 0:45:01.200 No person on Mars in twenty yes, no person on 0:45:01.239 --> 0:45:02.880 Mars in twenty fiftet just a robot. 0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:07.279 We may have landed. I mean, it's a big ask. 0:45:07.360 --> 0:45:11.160 We may have landed. I mean, there's enough fantastic Netflix 0:45:11.239 --> 0:45:15.200 and other paying channels available series about things like that, 0:45:15.600 --> 0:45:22.080 which are great fun. We may have landed. But it's ambitious. 0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:25.680 It's ambitious. The thing about Artemis and the Chinese version 0:45:25.719 --> 0:45:28.440 of it is that they've gone back to the idea 0:45:28.440 --> 0:45:31.000 because there was a huge debate over the past decade. 0:45:31.560 --> 0:45:33.839 Do you try and go straight to Mars from here 0:45:34.640 --> 0:45:37.560 or do you go to the Moon first, make your mistakes, 0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:41.840 learn your lessons, and launch from there. The lily pad 0:45:42.400 --> 0:45:46.000 to hop and that at the moment the Moon has 0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:50.880 won out because it takes more fuel get from the 0:45:50.880 --> 0:45:54.480 surface of the Earth to the Moon, far far more 0:45:54.520 --> 0:45:56.279 fuel than it does to get from the surface of 0:45:56.400 --> 0:45:59.040 the Moon to Mars, even though Mars is you know, 0:46:00.200 --> 0:46:03.839 it's millions of miles away, much further because you know, 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:07.319 because of escape velocity of getting out of the atmosphere. 0:46:08.200 --> 0:46:09.759 And let me ask you a final question. This is 0:46:09.800 --> 0:46:13.239 also about belief. If I were to say to you 0:46:13.280 --> 0:46:15.680 that you were going to the moon, I'm going for 0:46:15.920 --> 0:46:18.160 ten years. It's going to be great. I'm sending enough 0:46:18.160 --> 0:46:20.279 oxygen going play the moon for ten years, and then 0:46:20.320 --> 0:46:23.080 you can come back. But before you go, I'm going 0:46:23.120 --> 0:46:25.480 to let you invest in something. I'm going to give 0:46:25.480 --> 0:46:28.399 a choice of two things that you can have. One 0:46:28.480 --> 0:46:32.600 is bitcoin and one is gold. You have to choose 0:46:32.640 --> 0:46:35.200 one of these things. Your entire net worth is going 0:46:35.239 --> 0:46:37.480 into this thing, and you'll be back from the Moon 0:46:37.520 --> 0:46:40.600 in ten years. What do you think you'd take. I mean, yeah, 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:42.239 probably plenty of gold on the moon, right. 0:46:42.719 --> 0:46:44.320 I'm not going for that long because I've got a 0:46:44.320 --> 0:46:47.240 season to get it leg united, which I need to renew. 0:46:47.400 --> 0:46:49.279 But if I'm forced to, and if you freeze that, 0:46:49.480 --> 0:46:53.920 I'm freezing in frozen gold. I'm not convinced by bitcoin. 0:46:55.120 --> 0:47:00.560 I know it's I mean, you talk about belief is 0:47:00.680 --> 0:47:03.200 just as you know, it's belief. You know, I believe 0:47:03.280 --> 0:47:05.399 that this piece of paper here is worth that much. 0:47:05.440 --> 0:47:07.200 I believe this piece of metal is worth it. It's 0:47:07.239 --> 0:47:10.320 just a belief system. And I just believe that gold 0:47:10.680 --> 0:47:14.640 has far more even in the next ten years now, 0:47:14.960 --> 0:47:17.319 if one of the asteroids crashes on Earth has got 0:47:17.320 --> 0:47:20.160 more gold in it than has ever been mined, I've 0:47:20.200 --> 0:47:23.320 made a bad bet. Failing that gold. 0:47:23.880 --> 0:47:27.840 Yeah, that asteroid might also take out the Internet across 0:47:27.840 --> 0:47:30.680 the UK, across the world, which point bitcoin is worthless too. 0:47:30.880 --> 0:47:35.480 In which case gold is also far more. Yeah. No gold. Look, 0:47:35.600 --> 0:47:37.879 I know it's not doing very well at the moment though, 0:47:37.960 --> 0:47:39.680 is it. But it'll be back. 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:43.040 Jim, thank you, Thank you so much. Absolutely fascinating. 0:47:43.400 --> 0:47:44.320 Thank you. That was fun. 0:47:51.719 --> 0:47:55.640 John, Well, what did you think about that conversation? I 0:47:55.760 --> 0:47:57.160 thought it was fascinating. 0:47:57.800 --> 0:48:03.279 It really was just so interesting and also understand a 0:48:03.320 --> 0:48:06.160 lot more stuff that I have to see previously had 0:48:06.160 --> 0:48:08.479 a somewhat foggy point. 0:48:09.160 --> 0:48:11.399 What about like the different kinds of all bit Yeah, 0:48:11.480 --> 0:48:13.400 that kind of thing, and how far up everything is, 0:48:13.440 --> 0:48:15.440 and you know, I don't know if you said on 0:48:15.480 --> 0:48:17.960 the podcast, but maybe I were in the book that 0:48:18.120 --> 0:48:19.920 we think of space as being so far away, but 0:48:19.960 --> 0:48:21.799 if you were to just drive upwards, it's only an 0:48:21.800 --> 0:48:24.320 hour's drive away less if you break the speed limits 0:48:26.640 --> 0:48:30.080 really very very close. I might have added a bit 0:48:30.120 --> 0:48:32.440 about the speed limit myself, but you get the general idea. 0:48:33.280 --> 0:48:36.640 I thought it was great, and I mean again, it's 0:48:37.360 --> 0:48:41.960 I can see more clearly why there's a bit of 0:48:41.960 --> 0:48:44.879 a gold rush now, because any time anyone talks about 0:48:44.920 --> 0:48:48.759 Lettium Maine and I'm kind of like, you know, can 0:48:48.840 --> 0:48:50.560 you send a rocket when you can just go to 0:48:50.600 --> 0:48:53.400 Australia and kind of like, you know, dig around a 0:48:53.400 --> 0:48:57.120 bit more kind of thoroughly. But I can see the 0:48:57.239 --> 0:49:01.640 arguments now, and also the fascinating thing about it's we 0:49:01.760 --> 0:49:05.120 kind of need a cold war to get us to 0:49:05.160 --> 0:49:08.759 explore these places, which is a bit depressing, but at 0:49:08.840 --> 0:49:10.040 least it's an upside. 0:49:10.840 --> 0:49:12.400 Yeah, we need to have a bit of a ramy, 0:49:12.440 --> 0:49:15.279 as we know, we need to have a bit of 0:49:15.480 --> 0:49:18.319 a ramy to get the technology going so we can 0:49:18.360 --> 0:49:19.399 see where we're at right. 0:49:20.520 --> 0:49:22.319 It's a bit of a it's a bit of a 0:49:22.360 --> 0:49:26.040 coin test that can virility coin test between nations. And 0:49:26.120 --> 0:49:29.000 also I can get to the moon faster than you. 0:49:30.000 --> 0:49:32.920 Yeah, but that was the interesting thing that the last 0:49:32.960 --> 0:49:36.560 time around, it was a virility thing. You know, communism 0:49:36.680 --> 0:49:39.280 is better than capitalism. You know, we're a better society. 0:49:39.360 --> 0:49:41.919 We can do better things because you know, when we're 0:49:41.960 --> 0:49:46.320 coherent as the society. Whatever is the Soviet Union versus 0:49:46.520 --> 0:49:50.840 versus American business. What's interesting now is the fact that 0:49:50.880 --> 0:49:53.480 it's not really like that. There's a bit in the background, 0:49:53.520 --> 0:49:55.560 who gets to colonize the moon first, who gets to 0:49:55.560 --> 0:49:58.560 put a personal in miles first, etc. But actually the 0:49:58.600 --> 0:50:01.360 majority of this work has been done by private companies, 0:50:01.880 --> 0:50:04.160 and so we have this vast amount of private money 0:50:04.200 --> 0:50:08.040 up there. It's a completely different dynamic. And suddenly, you know, 0:50:08.160 --> 0:50:10.400 Elon musk Is is making rules which won't hold, but 0:50:10.440 --> 0:50:14.080 nonetheless making funny rules about what happens on Mars. Yeah, 0:50:14.320 --> 0:50:18.560 a totally different dynamic. And I've been really interested in that, thinking, well, 0:50:19.080 --> 0:50:21.239 you know, space really isn't a public place. It's a 0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:24.359 private place, and that's very different. But then Tim made 0:50:24.360 --> 0:50:27.920 this excellent point that even if there are no laws 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:29.960 in space, there are still a hell of a lot 0:50:29.960 --> 0:50:32.000 of laws on Earth, and everyone who wants to go 0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:34.200 to space has to leave from Earth. So you've got 0:50:34.200 --> 0:50:36.680 to get someone's permission to send your rockets up, to 0:50:36.719 --> 0:50:39.160 send your satellites up, to send your spaceships up. So 0:50:39.560 --> 0:50:41.480 it's like all things. And he said at the end, 0:50:41.520 --> 0:50:44.320 which was so interesting, because I keep saying this to people, 0:50:44.320 --> 0:50:46.839 and you keep saying this to people. Never right off 0:50:46.840 --> 0:50:49.680 the nation's state. When it comes right down to it, 0:50:50.120 --> 0:50:53.680 this is where sovereignty lies. It lies within the nation state. 0:50:54.280 --> 0:50:56.560 Every state makes its own rules. They have the power 0:50:56.560 --> 0:50:58.319 if you think they don't try breaking their laws. 0:50:58.560 --> 0:51:00.680 Oh, I was going to say that really interesting they 0:51:00.760 --> 0:51:04.040 brought that up because it's it's true. I mean, I'm 0:51:04.120 --> 0:51:07.960 a big sci fi fan, and one I didn't. 0:51:07.760 --> 0:51:10.080 Even know that about you. Well, I didn't know that 0:51:10.239 --> 0:51:11.760 you kept it secret for decads. 0:51:12.200 --> 0:51:14.040 I'm just kind of coming out of the closet to 0:51:14.120 --> 0:51:17.600 this terrible it was too ashamed to admit it to you. 0:51:17.960 --> 0:51:18.839 But no. 0:51:18.960 --> 0:51:20.720 But one of the kind of like the key features 0:51:20.719 --> 0:51:22.520 of sci fi over the last kind of like forty 0:51:22.520 --> 0:51:24.480 odd years, it's kind of Tim sort of says, is 0:51:24.520 --> 0:51:27.759 that he's always about big corporations kind of light, you know, 0:51:27.920 --> 0:51:33.000 dominating and the dystopias are all run by someone probably 0:51:33.080 --> 0:51:35.120 a bit like Elo and Mascot or something like that, 0:51:35.160 --> 0:51:37.680 who's got, you know, maybe the best intentions, but they've 0:51:37.960 --> 0:51:41.319 destroyed the world who their ambition and governments are either 0:51:41.600 --> 0:51:44.520 enthralled to them or they don't exist, and that is 0:51:44.640 --> 0:51:48.360 clearly kind of nonsense, you know, when push comes to shove, 0:51:49.360 --> 0:51:51.560 as it very much has in the last ten years, 0:51:53.000 --> 0:51:55.200 you know, because I guess it sort of also came 0:51:55.239 --> 0:51:57.120 about from the nineties and the end of the First 0:51:57.160 --> 0:51:59.839 Cold War, because everyone kind of went, oh, that's set 0:52:00.080 --> 0:52:03.879 that we all agree and basically one big global country though, 0:52:03.960 --> 0:52:07.960 and obviously that's proved to be complete annoysince and we've 0:52:08.000 --> 0:52:09.520 seen that a ton of the nation state we have 0:52:09.600 --> 0:52:11.880 engines over the last kind of five to ten years. 0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:13.680 So I thought, yeah, that was a really good point. 0:52:14.239 --> 0:52:15.640 But then you get to the point and we talked 0:52:15.640 --> 0:52:19.040 about this a little bit with him. We talked about 0:52:19.040 --> 0:52:20.880 which country are going to be most powerful in space 0:52:20.920 --> 0:52:22.719 in thirty forty years, and then we talked a little 0:52:22.719 --> 0:52:25.880 bit about well, who's going to which companies are going 0:52:25.920 --> 0:52:29.040 to be super powerful in space, and he mentioned which 0:52:29.040 --> 0:52:32.480 I thought was just so interesting. He mentioned Toyota. I 0:52:32.760 --> 0:52:38.400 haven't made them yet, but they've designed moon rovers. And 0:52:38.440 --> 0:52:40.839 so there are going to be so many companies out 0:52:40.880 --> 0:52:43.680 there who are already working on stuff that we never 0:52:43.719 --> 0:52:47.200 think about. And they may be household names already, we 0:52:47.320 --> 0:52:51.560 just don't think of them as space orientated companies. And 0:52:51.800 --> 0:52:55.440 I'm just fascinated to wait and find out who they 0:52:55.480 --> 0:52:56.840 are and how that's going to work. 0:52:58.000 --> 0:53:01.680 Yeah, And I mean it's also it's more because you know, 0:53:01.760 --> 0:53:04.279 there's the forum is stuff like, there's an investment in 0:53:04.360 --> 0:53:07.080 this sort of thing. Is it's the usual story we 0:53:07.200 --> 0:53:10.840 are okay, it's very exciting the idea, but which companies 0:53:10.840 --> 0:53:13.640 are actually going to survive in which companies are going 0:53:13.719 --> 0:53:15.799 to do a based and. 0:53:15.920 --> 0:53:17.799 How are you going to invest in that? How are 0:53:17.840 --> 0:53:19.319 you going to invest in that? And there are a couple, 0:53:19.360 --> 0:53:21.399 I mean, there are ways to invest in what's going 0:53:21.400 --> 0:53:23.200 on in space. At the moment I'm in. SpaceX, of 0:53:23.200 --> 0:53:25.200 course is a most well known company in this space, 0:53:25.320 --> 0:53:28.279 is not listed, but nonetheless there are there are a 0:53:28.320 --> 0:53:30.200 lot of funds that you can buy in the UK 0:53:30.239 --> 0:53:33.560 that will hold SpaceX may mainly a Bailey geffort, I think, yeah, I. 0:53:33.520 --> 0:53:37.600 Think Scottish Mortgage has got four percent of its portfolio 0:53:37.680 --> 0:53:38.680 in SpaceX. 0:53:39.600 --> 0:53:42.439 Okay, so you've got about five investment trusts. Bailey Given 0:53:42.440 --> 0:53:46.760 Investment Trust alone that holds SpaceX and Edinburgh Worldwide is another. 0:53:46.880 --> 0:53:49.440 They've got nearly six percent of their portfolio in SpaceX 0:53:49.520 --> 0:53:52.319 is one of their top holdings. So if you want exposure, 0:53:52.400 --> 0:53:54.520 a little bit of exposure to what's going on in 0:53:54.560 --> 0:53:56.880 space in a particular to this well as an amazing company, 0:53:57.120 --> 0:53:58.799 that's where you go right going to It's not going 0:53:58.840 --> 0:54:00.680 to move the dial on your investments on yeah, the 0:54:00.719 --> 0:54:03.240 smallest percent, but nonetheless you'll know you've got a tiny 0:54:03.239 --> 0:54:04.520 bit of skin in the space game. 0:54:05.280 --> 0:54:05.480 Yeah. 0:54:05.640 --> 0:54:07.520 The other way to do it, Yeah, And the other 0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:10.880 way to do it is Seraphim Space, which is a 0:54:10.920 --> 0:54:13.960 trust that holds only space companies. Now, before you start 0:54:14.040 --> 0:54:15.759 telling me about your success with freem And, I'm can 0:54:15.760 --> 0:54:19.200 tell you about my success in that. When they launched 0:54:19.200 --> 0:54:21.080 a few years back. I looked at it and I 0:54:21.120 --> 0:54:23.440 was as interested in space then as I am now 0:54:23.640 --> 0:54:26.080 in this trust, and I thought, well, it was absolutely fascinating. 0:54:26.400 --> 0:54:29.160 But but but butter, in the middle of a growth bubble, 0:54:29.440 --> 0:54:32.680 this stuff is insanely able priced it's a bit silly, 0:54:33.360 --> 0:54:35.400 and I want to tell you, John, this is one 0:54:35.400 --> 0:54:38.200 of my rare successes to share prices off forty four 0:54:38.200 --> 0:54:42.600 percent since that launch, So I'm fairly pleased with that. 0:54:42.960 --> 0:54:47.920 But you wrote about Seraphim just a few months ago, right, Well, yeah. 0:54:47.880 --> 0:54:49.760 All about it as I can. Part of a grab 0:54:49.800 --> 0:54:52.400 bag at highly discounted investment Truice at the end of 0:54:52.440 --> 0:54:55.359 the Vember, and it was treating a discount of something 0:54:55.360 --> 0:54:59.200 mildly seventy percent, and there's pretty good reasons for that. 0:54:59.280 --> 0:55:04.600 Interestry has gone not privately lest so plavate assets. But yeah, 0:55:04.640 --> 0:55:10.400 it's it's up about eighty percent since then. I mean, 0:55:10.400 --> 0:55:12.759 the one thing I would see is it's treading up 0:55:12.760 --> 0:55:15.520 a bit sextyps and then now is doing a bout 0:55:15.600 --> 0:55:20.840 ninety six pence and it's it's still a big descot, 0:55:20.920 --> 0:55:23.960 but it probably deserves a big descout. 0:55:24.120 --> 0:55:27.480 Because the stuff is super. Yeah, even if you do 0:55:27.640 --> 0:55:29.200 if you're not going to invest in this stuff, you 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:31.040 don't want to buy this Drauss or whatever you and 0:55:31.040 --> 0:55:33.960 you don't want any exposure to it, it is worth 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:36.799 going to their website. Go to the website just for 0:55:36.880 --> 0:55:41.120 the fun of it and spend some time reading about 0:55:41.320 --> 0:55:46.600 these amazing, exciting, innovative companies that are involved in all 0:55:46.680 --> 0:55:49.640 the amazing stuff that's going on in space. There's lots 0:55:49.640 --> 0:55:52.720 of AI on this website. There's lots of satellite stuff, 0:55:53.840 --> 0:55:56.640 I mean just just everything, lots of weather stuff. There's 0:55:56.680 --> 0:55:58.279 even one that I would love to know more about it. 0:55:58.280 --> 0:56:01.080 I'm going to get it. Click on this insurance powered 0:56:01.120 --> 0:56:03.640 by Science. How does that make it into a space portfolio? 0:56:03.680 --> 0:56:08.680 But it does. It is absolutely fascinating. It's worth visiting 0:56:08.800 --> 0:56:10.600 this website and spending a couple of hours on it, 0:56:10.640 --> 0:56:13.000 and I can't see a better way to learn about space, 0:56:13.000 --> 0:56:16.160 apart from listening, of course, to Ted Marshall talking about space. 0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:25.080 Thanks for listening for this week's Maren Talks Money. We'll 0:56:25.120 --> 0:56:27.000 be back next week in the meantime. If you like 0:56:27.040 --> 0:56:29.719 our show, rate review and subscribe wherever you listen to 0:56:29.719 --> 0:56:32.239 your podcast, and also do tell your friends about us. 0:56:32.480 --> 0:56:35.040 This episode was hosted by me Maren's Sunset Web. It 0:56:35.120 --> 0:56:38.320 was produced by Summersidi. Additional editing by Blake Maple's Bettel. 0:56:38.360 --> 0:56:41.319 Thanks to Tim Marshall and to John Steppek and if 0:56:41.320 --> 0:56:43.400 you want to hear more, by the way, on John's 0:56:43.400 --> 0:56:46.680 thoughts on pensions. Sign up to his news letter Money Distilled, 0:56:46.680 --> 0:56:48.160 which you can see on the website.