1 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:12,080 Speaker 1: The news of John Bender's death spread like wildfire around 2 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,760 Speaker 1: Costa Rica. So did the revelation that Anne was the 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: prime suspect in his assumed murder. The couple who seemingly 4 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: had it all good looks, love and money had lost everything. 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:28,120 Speaker 1: The question of what had happened and whether Anne had 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 1: pulled the trigger became a national pastime author Carol Vaughan. 7 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: Americans would have cocktail parties and argue over whether they 8 00:00:37,720 --> 00:00:41,200 Speaker 2: thought she was guilty or not, and what really happened there? 9 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: What happened to her, Jules? And it was hot. 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: It wasn't just hot in Costa Rica. The story went 11 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:50,599 Speaker 1: global and. 12 00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:54,200 Speaker 2: There were whole detective medicines that devoted issues to her, 13 00:00:54,360 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: saying that she digged and oh poor saying I don't 14 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 2: think she did it. I mean, everyone had an opinion, 15 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: and everyone commented freely. 16 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 1: And in dear Monte Valley itself, where the Benders had 17 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: built their enormous house, everyone was talking about it. Jesse, 18 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:12,600 Speaker 1: their neighbor. 19 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 3: It was obviously the biggest news in the valley, and 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 3: it got around fast. 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:21,680 Speaker 1: John Korvic, whose place was nearby, said it was all 22 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: so predictable. 23 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 4: No matter how big the house is you're losing your mind. 24 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 4: Those two were up on top of that hill by themselves, 25 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 4: watching it rain with monkey screaming for days and days 26 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:33,839 Speaker 4: and days and days. 27 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: Suspicions, theories, told you, sos, and plain old tittle tattle erupted. 28 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,040 Speaker 1: Everyone had an opinion about what really happened on the 29 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 1: fourth floor of that huge house, made more fevered by 30 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: the discovery of hordes of precious stones. Carol Vaughn. 31 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 2: They packed up sixteen suitcases full of loose jawels that 32 00:01:58,280 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 2: the Benners had just sitting around there, bedroom. 33 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: Diamonds, opals, rubies. Were they the trinkets of multimillionaires or 34 00:02:09,400 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 1: did they serve some other more nefarious purpose. John Corvick 35 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: had a theory, So I say. 36 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 4: I wanted to fly from here to there and bring 37 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 4: a couple million bucks. To be a hell of a 38 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,360 Speaker 4: lot easier to bring a couple of stones, and it 39 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 4: is to bring a suit caseful cash. 40 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,040 Speaker 1: And there were other stories, incredible and unfounded stories doing 41 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:29,680 Speaker 1: the rounds. 42 00:02:30,200 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 3: One thing I had heard that he had a tunnel 43 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:35,639 Speaker 3: going to an underground bunker with full of. 44 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 5: Guns and things. 45 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:39,000 Speaker 6: I don't know if that's true, but that was the story. 46 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: But at the heart of it all was anne. Had 47 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: this fragile, beautiful but desperately ill woman really murdered her husband? 48 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,800 Speaker 1: Would she have been capable of carrying out such a crime, 49 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: And supposing she had, why, what would have been her motive? 50 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,080 Speaker 1: Nicole Korlvic, I. 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:02,640 Speaker 7: Don't know the truth of the matter, what really happened. 52 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,520 Speaker 7: I heard that she was sick in that he was 53 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:10,200 Speaker 7: trying to make some sort of concoction to cure her 54 00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,320 Speaker 7: with various medicinal plants. 55 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:17,079 Speaker 8: So if she had any moto that may have had 56 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:20,160 Speaker 8: something to do with it, mind you. But on the 57 00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 8: flip side of that, anyone who does that a little 58 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:27,400 Speaker 8: bit nuts. I'm sure it's capable of killing the welch. Well, 59 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 8: you know who knows what happened out there? 60 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 1: Well, every angle and aspect of the story was chewed over. 61 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:41,240 Speaker 1: The Costa Rican police convinced they had their culprit, were 62 00:03:41,280 --> 00:03:46,760 Speaker 1: putting together a case, and the woman at the heart 63 00:03:46,800 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 1: of it all was in hospital, very sick from exactly right. 64 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: Media and iHeart podcasts produced by Blanchard House. This is 65 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: Helen Heaven. I'm Becky Milligan. Chapter six, The Folly of Two. 66 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,640 Speaker 1: We're in a brightly lit corridor, A few people wait 67 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:47,839 Speaker 1: on plastic chairs. Poppy, my producer, tells the receptionist, we're here. 68 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 1: At the time of the murder, Anne was a patient 69 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: of psychiatrist doctor Lozano, one of Costa Rica's top experts 70 00:04:56,200 --> 00:05:01,239 Speaker 1: on bipolar disorder. He also treated the symptoms of lymes disease, 71 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:05,920 Speaker 1: which can cause brain fog and increased anxiety and depression. 72 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: For Anne, it wasn't just a physical disease. The day 73 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 1: after John's death in January twenty ten, Jose Pizarro, the 74 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 1: Bender's head of security, rushed down to the privately run 75 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: Seema Hospital in San Jose to be seen by doctor Lozano. 76 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: She was in a terrible state. It's rare that doctors 77 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 1: talk about their patients, but doctor Lozano agreed to speak 78 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:35,479 Speaker 1: to us in his private clinic. What he had to 79 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 1: tell us about Anne would throw a completely new light 80 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: on her relationship with John. He was running a bit late, 81 00:05:43,240 --> 00:05:46,840 Speaker 1: but we were eventually shown into his consulting room late 82 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: in the afternoon. 83 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 9: Hello Touch. 84 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:56,480 Speaker 1: He'd had a busy day and had a somewhat long 85 00:05:56,560 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: suffering expression on his face, but still he welcome us 86 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 1: with a wave. Of his hand. His gray hair was 87 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: slicked back. He had a neatly trimmed beard and mustache, 88 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,920 Speaker 1: and despite being weary, he had a friendly bedside manner 89 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 1: about him. I got a sense that Anne would have 90 00:06:13,800 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: been reassured by his presence. 91 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:22,120 Speaker 5: You're English, yes, me? Motherel was British, really yeah, Suffolk 92 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:24,000 Speaker 5: from a hill, Suffolk. 93 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:27,400 Speaker 1: I asked him to tell me about the day Jose 94 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: rushed Anne into hospital after John's death. 95 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 5: I was in my office and I was told that 96 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:40,240 Speaker 5: she was on her way. Pizarro was wringing her and 97 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,080 Speaker 5: I went to emergency ward and she was sitting on 98 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 5: a wheelchair, very very thin. I had not seen her 99 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 5: in several months. She was very very thin for Lakita 100 00:06:54,000 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 5: who say Spanish, and very very thin. Frail did her 101 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 5: because she was in shock. And I was told that 102 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 5: her husband had died. And that was as far as 103 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 5: there was all information again at that moment. 104 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,880 Speaker 1: But he did notice something, something very strange. 105 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 5: She was with a shutter on into the cardigan on, 106 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 5: but what I could see of her arms were bumps. 107 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:30,280 Speaker 1: All over her arms were bumps and saws, and some 108 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: were infected badly. He couldn't work out what could have 109 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 1: caused them. They crossed his mind that she might have 110 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,320 Speaker 1: been bitten by some kind of insects in the jungle. 111 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 1: Whatever the cause, he was horrified by Anne's appearance, emaciated 112 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: and in a kind of flat state, just staring blankly 113 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: into space. What did you actually think when you saw 114 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 1: her looking like that? 115 00:07:55,880 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 5: Coming from a psychiatrist and I'm going to see is deep? 116 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 5: I felt sorry for her. I felt I said, poor thing. 117 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 5: I mean, poor poor girl. I mean, what has happened. 118 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 5: Not only her husband just passed away. She's full of bombs. 119 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 5: She's psychotic, terrible. 120 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:25,400 Speaker 1: Before he could find out what had caused all the 121 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,320 Speaker 1: bumps and saws, she needed treatments straight away for her 122 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:34,200 Speaker 1: most acute symptoms. What do you do as a psychiatrist 123 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: to help her. 124 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 5: In that case? I tried to comfort her, which was 125 00:08:40,160 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 5: just me trying to be nice. 126 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: What did you do? 127 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 5: I put her on the medication immediately? 128 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:52,720 Speaker 1: But what had caused those bumps? Doctor Lozano would make 129 00:08:52,760 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: sure to find out later. She was put on a 130 00:08:56,280 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: cocktail of medications. She was in a very bad way. 131 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: She hardly spoke. Dr Lozano barely recognized her. Hearing all this, 132 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 1: I can't help but think back to that comment as 133 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 1: Valdo Rojas, the head of staff, made about Anne, that 134 00:09:15,679 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: the vibrant woman he first met in two thousand slowly vanished. 135 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: Ten years in the jungle with John had taken such 136 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: a toll on her physically, she'd declined, but also mentally. 137 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:32,559 Speaker 1: I wondered what she'd been like when Dr. Lazano first 138 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: met her, compared to his desperately sick patient in the wheelchair. 139 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 5: She was a nice, pretty young woman, pretty and had 140 00:09:46,040 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 5: two sides to her. 141 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: On the one hand, there was Anne in tattered worklothes 142 00:09:51,120 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 1: in the jungle, looking after the animal sanctuary. Then there 143 00:09:55,360 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 1: was Anne, the urban sophisticate, in designer clothes, every bit 144 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 1: the cosmopolitan daughter of an international financier. 145 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,320 Speaker 5: She was taking care of the animals in the south, 146 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 5: and then she would come back. She would come to 147 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 5: San Jose, and they used to travel a lot. Then 148 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 5: the employees told me that she used to go around 149 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:25,480 Speaker 5: with boots and jeans, and you know, very into the 150 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:30,400 Speaker 5: farm life. But then here she would be very. 151 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 10: Elegant, fancy lady, very nice person, a little silent, I 152 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 10: would say, she would she would. 153 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 5: She was not a big talker. She was like, you know, 154 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,320 Speaker 5: careful into conversations. 155 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: Here we were speaking to Anne psychiatrists of many years, 156 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: and yet pinning down the real Anne has proved different. 157 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 1: Cult So we've waded through articles and interviews and spoke 158 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: to old friends. Who is Anne Bender and could her 159 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,679 Speaker 1: background provide a clue to whether she would ever be 160 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 1: capable of murder. In an interview for CNN, Ken Patton, 161 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: Anne's brother reflected on a younger Anne, saying she'd always 162 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 1: had a very strong bond with animals. They both grew 163 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: up in Rio de Janeiro, and Anne was very popular 164 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: and outgoing at school. He said she hung out with 165 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: the cool crowd and says that it was in her 166 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: preteens that things changed. Something was weird, something was different, 167 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: she said. As we know later she would be diagnosed 168 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: with bipolar disorder, a condition which can cause huge mood 169 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: swings with episodes of extreme highs and extreme lows. She 170 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:10,760 Speaker 1: said that it could make her rather impulsive and might 171 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: explain decisions like moving to Virginia from the city at 172 00:12:14,120 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: the drop of a hat. We did manage to contact 173 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: one old friend who didn't want to do an interview, 174 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: but gave us the following information which we've had voiced 175 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: up by an actor. 176 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 9: Ian attended the American International School in Lisbon. She attended 177 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 9: EFACA University, with at least a year on their London campus. 178 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:38,200 Speaker 9: She lived and worked in Baltimore post graduation. We were 179 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 9: really good friends and we kept in touch until she 180 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 9: met John and got married. Then she cut off all 181 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 9: ties with everyone, including me, everyone except her family. 182 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: We asked doctor Lozano about his sessions with Anne prior 183 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: to John's death. Did the relationship seem happy? He thought so. 184 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 5: I was very proud of John. 185 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: Did you get the feeling that John was the love 186 00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: of her life? 187 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 5: Yes, yes, matter of fact like at that time they 188 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 5: were very close together. When I say at the time, 189 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 5: because I was helping her for years. 190 00:13:24,120 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: But what really worried Dr Lozano was those bumps on 191 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: Anne's arms. What had caused them? Eventually she opened up 192 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:37,160 Speaker 1: and told him it would be a startling revelation. 193 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 5: I asked her, what are these bumps? He said, well, 194 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 5: John was injecting me. 195 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:49,760 Speaker 1: Yes, John was injecting And. 196 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:52,480 Speaker 5: I said, oh what she was he injecting you the medication? 197 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 5: Because I was I had not prescribed injectable medication. He 198 00:13:57,880 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 5: was trying to help me with my polarity, and he 199 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 5: was giving me clear spring water injections under my skin 200 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 5: to heal me. 201 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: This admission would shock her psychiatrist, doctor Lozano, and change 202 00:14:16,360 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: how he saw the dynamic of the couple. 203 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 5: Said, and are you serious? Yes? Why not? I remember 204 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 5: that main conversation gave me the impression that she was 205 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,360 Speaker 5: not in her right state of mind. 206 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: Did it also make you wonder what state of mind 207 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: John was in when he was injecting her and what 208 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: he was trying to do? 209 00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 5: I wrote and in the file, in the emergency file, 210 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 5: that Ann was psychotic at that moment, and that John 211 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 5: must have been psychotic too. 212 00:14:58,960 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: We asked as Valde about the injections. 213 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 4: Not going in. 214 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 5: Yeah, and I never saw him do it. 215 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: And I never saw Anna with any punctures in her skin, 216 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: never at all. Was this why only John and Anne 217 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:16,440 Speaker 1: were allowed on the fourth floor? Was this one of 218 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: their secrets? Anne would later say in interviews that she 219 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: allowed John to inject her. She told Outside magazine that 220 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: he was experimenting on her. She added, there was nothing 221 00:15:31,280 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: non intense about John's and my relationship. The saddest part 222 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: is Anne's bumps were infected. Far from saving her, they 223 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: were making her sicker. What had started as a pursuit 224 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: to learn about natural medicines in the jungle had become 225 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: a dangerous delusion about river water and its healing powers 226 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: and perhaps John's ability to find a cure where modern 227 00:15:55,760 --> 00:16:01,840 Speaker 1: medicine had failed. Discovering this reveal yielded something to doctor Lozano. 228 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: He diagnosed Anne with a rare disorder called folly adeu 229 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 1: folly of two, also known as shared psychotic disorder, a 230 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: condition in which two people with mental illnesses reinforce each 231 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: other's psychosis. They become more extreme together. 232 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 2: They alienated the professionals that they dealt with. They didn't 233 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 2: have strong friendships, They only had each other. They had 234 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 2: what her therapists called fully adeu, where you exacerbate the 235 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 2: other person's craziness. And it was just doomed. 236 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: Just don't we spoke to author Carol Vaughan about the injections. 237 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 2: She was sick, sick, sick. When she was admitted to 238 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 2: the hospital after he died, she was barely alive. She 239 00:16:55,520 --> 00:17:00,440 Speaker 2: was just hanging on by a thread. So putting myself 240 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 2: in that situation, I would have killed them. 241 00:17:04,119 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: Anne continues to deny any involvement in her husband's death. 242 00:17:09,240 --> 00:17:14,719 Speaker 1: Some people, including Carol, started to wonder could suicide and 243 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 1: cold blooded murder both be wrong? Was John's death in 244 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: fact a form of self defense? 245 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 2: If he didn't kill her, then j had to kill him. 246 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: I think that she saved her life. Frankly, I don't 247 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 2: think of that she killed him. I think she saved 248 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 2: her own life. 249 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: Self defense was never considered in court. Anne always stuck 250 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: to her story she did not kill her husband. Over 251 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: the six months Anne was in hospital, doctor Lozano kept 252 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 1: her close eye on his patient, sided. 253 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 5: Her and sat with her to talk for about an 254 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,720 Speaker 5: hour daily for the six months, trying to help her 255 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 5: overcome the grief of losing John and going through all 256 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 5: of that. Because I felt terrible for her, I mean, 257 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 5: such a nice person, I mean, a young woman. My 258 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 5: Latino side came out and said over Desita, I mean 259 00:18:27,840 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 5: it was something I felt. 260 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: It was unfair, Papa Sita, that means poor little thing. 261 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 5: Remember how uncomfortable it was that she had a one 262 00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:44,560 Speaker 5: policeman all the time sitting at the door of her room. 263 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:49,679 Speaker 5: That was disgusting. I thought it was absolutely unnecessary. But 264 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:50,600 Speaker 5: is the law? 265 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: But however sick Anne was. She was the police's prime 266 00:18:55,200 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: suspect in her husband's murder. They posted an officer outside 267 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 1: her hospital room twenty four to seven. What did you 268 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:06,520 Speaker 1: talk about all those times? Do you remember any one 269 00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:07,880 Speaker 1: particular conversation? 270 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 5: A lot about John. He used to ride his four 271 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:20,120 Speaker 5: wheeler and go to see the sunset from the hill 272 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 5: and then come back. There was more that kind of conversation. 273 00:19:25,560 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: Doctor Lozano noticed after a few months, Anne was improving. 274 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 5: She was more relaxed, and she had more friends, and 275 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 5: she was not a bardy girl, but she was more 276 00:19:37,440 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 5: social and still always talking about John. 277 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 1: And when she talked about him, did she tell you 278 00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: that she had a feeling he might do this, or 279 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,720 Speaker 1: that there were any hints, or that. 280 00:19:51,640 --> 00:19:57,120 Speaker 5: He might take his life. Yes, she was always concerned 281 00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 5: about John taking his life. 282 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,439 Speaker 1: At the end of six months, Anne's health had improved. 283 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: She was able to walk, she gained weight, her bipolar 284 00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:14,880 Speaker 1: disorder had stabilized. She also had the support of her brother, Ken, 285 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: who was renting an apartment in San Jose. But Borachyanne 286 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:23,040 Speaker 1: was not as she'd left it. The police had emptied 287 00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:28,639 Speaker 1: her beloved home. Everything was gone. No tiffany lamps, no TV, 288 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: no microwave, and no staff and told us Valdo she'd 289 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:38,239 Speaker 1: never stay in the house ever again. Then there were 290 00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: rumors about the gems. They'd all gone too. The story 291 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: went that the police had collected them all and packed 292 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:47,480 Speaker 1: them into suitcases. 293 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 2: Someone else will tell you the story that a lot 294 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:52,560 Speaker 2: of that didn't quite make it into the suitcase. 295 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:56,919 Speaker 1: In other words, there were rumors of people helping themselves 296 00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: to Anne's gems at the crime scene. Anne also had 297 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: another problem, money and her lawyer, Juan Alvarez. John and 298 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,439 Speaker 1: Ann had put ninety million dollars in a trust and 299 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: given Alvare's power of attorney, which means he effectively controlled 300 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: their fortune. It's reported he'd stopped Anne's credit cards and 301 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,840 Speaker 1: payments and hadn't paid the staff at the house. It 302 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: became legally very messy and complicated. Alvarez has denied all 303 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: the allegations against him, telling CBS that they were bogus. 304 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 1: He didn't respond to our requests for an interview, and 305 00:21:37,720 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 1: despite the huge sums involved, the situation with the trust 306 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 1: would soon be the least of Anne's problems, because more 307 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: than a year after John's death, the police had finally 308 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 1: concluded their investigation. On August the twenty fourth, twenty eleven, 309 00:21:55,640 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: Anne was arrested and charged with first degree murder for 310 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: killing her husband, John Felix Bender. A Costa Rican English 311 00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:09,919 Speaker 1: newspaper said the case had all the makings of a 312 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 1: tropical Gothic tragedy. Stressed, you think she was underwhen she 313 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:18,640 Speaker 1: was suddenly arrested for the murder of her husband. I mean, 314 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 1: what did. 315 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 5: You It must have been terrible for her. 316 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:23,480 Speaker 1: Did you talk to her about it? 317 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 5: Yes, we talked. She was at the beginning silent, very 318 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 5: silent in a way that I once asked her, and 319 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 5: she didn't want to hurt nonbody. 320 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,239 Speaker 1: It would be a further year before Anne would be 321 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: in court. With the help of her family and a 322 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: few friends, she assembled her defense team. She was also 323 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: supported by their loyal former head of security, Jose Pizarro, 324 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: the Colonel, as John used to call him. He saw 325 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: it as his duty to protect Anne. Now that John 326 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: was dead. He was voted to her. 327 00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:04,640 Speaker 11: We used to talk and she always asked, from my opinion, 328 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 11: what she could do about the accusation and why she 329 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 11: was accused, And she talked about it with me every 330 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 11: single day. The whole process had been an orthodox I 331 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 11: thought this couldn't happen, but it did. She was always 332 00:23:19,880 --> 00:23:24,160 Speaker 11: worried about what might happen next. She was worried, angry, 333 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 11: and frightened of being involved in the death of her husband. 334 00:23:27,520 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 5: It was very hard for her. 335 00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 11: She couldn't understand how they could accuse her of killing 336 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 11: her husband. She got very sad from then on she 337 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:39,200 Speaker 11: struggled with all of this. 338 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: As for the workers in the house, everything changed after 339 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,920 Speaker 1: John's death. As Valdo Rojas, their maintenance man, had worked 340 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,159 Speaker 1: for the Benders for ten years. It was a good job. 341 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: Many of the other staff had also been there for 342 00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,840 Speaker 1: five years or more. They had become part of the 343 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:04,880 Speaker 1: Bender's dream. But the dream was over and the future 344 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:10,160 Speaker 1: looked very uncertain. Bouracheyaane, the house on the hill, which 345 00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 1: had been alive with activity, fell silent. Gone were the 346 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 1: guards and the gardeners who helped create the nature reserve, 347 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: gone too. The vets who looked after the sick animals 348 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: and John's orchids were left to wither and die. All 349 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: was quiet, apart from the sounds of the jungle. Anne's 350 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,560 Speaker 1: trial began on January the fourteenth, twenty thirteen in the 351 00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: courthouse in Perez Zeladon. It would be heard by three judges. 352 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: They don't have jury trials in Costa Rica. Anne was 353 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 1: accompanied by her family and a few friends. John's parents, 354 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: Paul and Margy, didn't go. 355 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 3: No, we thought about it, But it's probably my fault 356 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,159 Speaker 3: for not going. I didn't know what the hell I 357 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 3: had to do there. What purpose could I serve? I 358 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 3: didn't know what happened. He was gone, She had family 359 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 3: was going to take care of her. So I did 360 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 3: hire a lawyer there to try to tell me what 361 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 3: was going on. 362 00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: Their son's death had been devastating. At the time, they 363 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 1: felt it was the right decision not to attend the trial. 364 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:36,919 Speaker 1: They stayed in touch with and throughout and gave her 365 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:41,159 Speaker 1: their full support. I think they felt a sense of helplessness. 366 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: Their son was dead. Nothing they did now would bring 367 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 1: him back. But now Paul wonders if they made the 368 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: right decision. 369 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 3: I probably should have worked harder with that, and it 370 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 3: probably would have been better for me to go down 371 00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 3: and get to know the people and talk to them 372 00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 3: and figure out what was when. But what difference would 373 00:25:58,440 --> 00:25:58,840 Speaker 3: it make? 374 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 5: It? Nothing I could do about it if. 375 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 1: It's happened, and it's such a difficult thing as well. 376 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,200 Speaker 1: I meant break. 377 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 3: I think the main thing that I should say about 378 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:17,880 Speaker 3: that is we really were very supportive of Air because 379 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,400 Speaker 3: we wanted her to stay in control of the property, 380 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 3: and we didn't blame her for anything, so we did 381 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 3: everything he could to help her. 382 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: Paul and Margie talk easily about most things, laugh too, 383 00:26:33,640 --> 00:26:37,159 Speaker 1: but when the subject of John comes up, especially talking 384 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:41,640 Speaker 1: about when and how he died, their voices become so quiet, 385 00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: and I noticed they reach for each other's hands and 386 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: hold on tight. 387 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,760 Speaker 6: You can't do anything about it, And so what would 388 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,200 Speaker 6: be the point of going and fighting down in Costa Rica? 389 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 6: But I think what good would that thing to do 390 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 6: is that we'll cause misery. We couldn't help him anymore 391 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,920 Speaker 6: and seemed to know what she was doing. 392 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:13,479 Speaker 12: Ampa news broke that a millionaire heiress was being tried 393 00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 12: for the murder of her husband, and camera crews moved. 394 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: In Racerospoza La mortezrouspos John Felix Bender. 395 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:28,639 Speaker 1: In val Three years after John's death, Anne was in 396 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,520 Speaker 1: the dock in a Costa Rican court being tried for 397 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:37,120 Speaker 1: first degree murder. The case was heard almost entirely in Spanish. 398 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: The prosecution didn't offer a theory about motive. Reportedly, the 399 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 1: court recorded that she acted without any apparent motive, but 400 00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:50,320 Speaker 1: clear intent to end the life of the victim, John 401 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 1: Felix Bender. The prosecution's focus was on the crime scene. 402 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: Remember the air plugs. Prosecutors asked why John would go 403 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,119 Speaker 1: to bed with those ear plugs in if he was 404 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: intending to kill himself. Then there was the gunshot wound 405 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: that was on the back of John's head on the 406 00:28:10,280 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: right hand side, whereas John was left handed. None of 407 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: this added up to suicide. The prosecution claimed, how did 408 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,000 Speaker 1: a left handed person take that shot and how did 409 00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: the bullet casing end up in those positions. The defense, 410 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:32,800 Speaker 1: on the other hand, argued, this was all a horrible mistake. 411 00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,280 Speaker 1: John was suicidal and this was the result of years 412 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: of planning. Friends confirmed this, and so did emails John sent. 413 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:47,320 Speaker 1: The defense claimed Ann tried to stop him but couldn't. 414 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 6: They said. 415 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: Anne's testimony lasted seventy minutes. She spoke with passion about 416 00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: her life with John, their loving relationship. She told the 417 00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: call why they had come to Costa Rica and what 418 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: they had hoped to achieve and all of this she 419 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: delivered in fluence Spanish. She spoke from the heart, winning 420 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 1: over the press and many who hadn't heard her speak before. 421 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 1: In the media, there was sympathy for her and what 422 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: she'd been through. Why was our government taking this poor 423 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 1: woman to court? They asked. All the Benders wanted was 424 00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: to help Costa Rica. The prosecution and defense rested. The 425 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,120 Speaker 1: judges retired to consider the evidence. The case had lasted 426 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: six days, from January fourteenth to January the twenty first, 427 00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen. Just before the verdict, Anne addressed the court 428 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: one more time. An actor is reading her statement. It's 429 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: been three years of hell and I feel listened to 430 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 1: and protected by the justice system, and I would like 431 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: to thank you. The verdict was read out in front 432 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 1: of a packed courthouse full of TV cameras and spectators 433 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:11,480 Speaker 1: fascinated by the case. Based on the evidence presented, we 434 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: have unanimously decided the defendant is acquitted, not guilty. Anne 435 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: must have felt huge relief. She could now get on 436 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 1: with her life and grieve her husband in peace. Except 437 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: that's not how this story ends. In Costa Rica, there 438 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: is no limit to the amount of times you can 439 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: be tried for the same crime. Prosecutors wanted a retrial 440 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 1: and that's what they got. Anne would be back in 441 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: court for a second time on trial. 442 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 6: For murder people. 443 00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: Yes, they thought this rich American is never going to jail. 444 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:03,960 Speaker 2: It just won't happen here. Cos Striker wouldn't do that 445 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 2: to a woman. KOs Striker wouldn't do that to an American. 446 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 2: They dropped the bomb on her. 447 00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: That's next time on Helen Heaven. You've been listening to 448 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: Helen Heaven from Exactly Right Media and iHeart Podcasts produced 449 00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: by Blanchard House, hosted, written and produced by me Becky Milligan. 450 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,240 Speaker 1: The producer and co writer is Poppy Damon. Music is 451 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 1: by Daniel Lloyd Evans, Louis Nankmanell, and Toby Mattamol. The 452 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:47,760 Speaker 1: sound Recordistant Head of Sound and Music is Daniel Lloyd Evans. 453 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: The lead sound designer is Vulcan Kiseltook. The artwork is 454 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: by Vanessa Lilac for Exactly Right Media. The executive producers 455 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: are Karen Kilgarreth, Georgia Hartste and Danielle Kramer, with consulting 456 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: producer Lilly Ladderwig and associate producer Jay Elias. The creative 457 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:14,080 Speaker 1: director of Blanchard House is Rosie Pye. The executive producer 458 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 1: and head of Content at Blanchard House is Lawrence Griselle. 459 00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:23,240 Speaker 1: Listen to Helen Heaven on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 460 00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.