WEBVTT - A Global Perspective 0:00:04.600 --> 0:00:07.680 So the big question is this, how do investors like 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:11.800 us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly, 0:00:12.039 --> 0:00:14.880 the right people that give us the tools and information 0:00:14.960 --> 0:00:19.000 we need to make conformed and educated decisions to have success. 0:00:19.600 --> 0:00:22.319 That is the question, and this podcast will give us 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:25.480 the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:29.080 this started. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of 0:00:29.080 --> 0:00:32.800 the Market Disruptors podcast. This week we are joined by 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:36.280 cats Ya from Peer to Peer Capital. She has an 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.960 amazing story. She's lived in Russia, Switzerland and now the US. 0:00:40.520 --> 0:00:42.519 An amazing story of how she's gone from investing in 0:00:42.520 --> 0:00:46.000 different asset classes and into cryptocurrencies and why, and we 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:48.959 talk about her fund, her thesis, um, how they look 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:51.160 at the market, how they're investing, how they look at risk, 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:53.479 and so many other fascinating things. There's a lot of 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:56.080 really good stuff to get out of this episode. Can't 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:58.680 wait to jump into it. So let's go. All right, guys, 0:00:58.760 --> 0:01:01.360 welcome to another episode of Art Constructors podcast. I have 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.120 Catia from Peer to Peer Capital on today, and she 0:01:05.280 --> 0:01:07.520 has a really unique insight into some sectors of the 0:01:07.520 --> 0:01:09.680 market that a lot of people have been looking at, 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:13.160 specifically about protocols. She wrote a paper on protocols which 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:15.640 really caught my eye and I led some really interesting 0:01:15.680 --> 0:01:21.160 conversations and so let's just jump right in. So Katia, welcome, Hi, 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.000 good to be here. So um for for those that 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:27.920 probably haven't read your paper, no much about you, just 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.640 give us a quick um intro on your background and 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:34.760 how you got here into the blockchain space, right now? Sure? Sure? 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.399 So I was born and raised in Russia and moved 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:42.959 to Switzerland in my early twenties and started my career 0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.480 in well. I had education and finance and financial managements 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:50.680 and investments. I wrote my diploma and investment climate, and 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:53.160 I guess after writing the Diploma of Investment Climent, I 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:55.440 realized that investment climate in Russia was not that good. 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:58.280 So I moved to Switzerland and then started working in 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:03.000 power management and magists after mainly, and that's where I've 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:07.000 built my career mostly for the ten years, and always 0:02:07.000 --> 0:02:10.760 been in finance part of it. And also I've been 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:16.440 into startups, very interesting crazy startups and energy storage, battery 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:21.200 grid management, so those kind of things. And in early 0:02:21.240 --> 0:02:26.000 two thousands sixteen, i've through actually my family business. I've 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.360 met a team who are doing um watching investments since 0:02:30.360 --> 0:02:32.560 two thousands fourteen, so they've been in the market for 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.240 a couple of years. And since my family was in 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:39.600 the real estate and we were looking how to uh 0:02:39.760 --> 0:02:41.800 that's actually a separate story, but we're looking at how 0:02:41.880 --> 0:02:45.400 to talken eyes real estate investments. But we didn't know 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:47.720 the word talking I yet. We were just looking at 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:51.120 the way of making it more easy and accessible and 0:02:51.160 --> 0:02:53.160 liquid to the market. And then friends said, well, you 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.760 should look at this blotching thing, and so we started 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.000 working with like with the teams who can help us 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:01.160 with and then when we realized the potential of it, 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:04.280 and when I saw what it was this, I was like, Okay, 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:08.280 I'm not interested in real estate anymore. I'm not interested 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:10.359 in whatever I was doing in corporate finance in my 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:15.079 corporate career in big multinationals, and I was diving in 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.600 it had had first since two thousand sixteen. So I 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:21.640 joined the group of private investors and at the time 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.320 they were running the fund which is called SATUCI Fund, 0:03:24.400 --> 0:03:27.680 and then we rebranded to ptop Capital last year, but 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:32.440 it was mainly just changing the structure of the fund. 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:36.240 But their investment thesis has been pretty stable let's say 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:39.480 since the beginning, so since it's a thousand fourteen, the 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:43.600 team has discovered that there can be alternative assets to bitcoin, 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:47.360 and they wrote a thesis around it that bitcoin is 0:03:47.400 --> 0:03:50.720 a store of value, and we realized the potential of it, 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.560 but they can be other interesting use cases that can 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:56.680 have a huge potential, And of course even now we 0:03:56.720 --> 0:03:59.320 still cannot see what the potential is, but it was 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.280 clear that as that it's going to be interesting. So 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.680 it started investing like very early projects from Ethereum, like 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:09.880 the Genesis, Walck, Criterium, bit Shears made Safe all Us 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:12.320 like the starting projects, and then I joined and then 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:16.839 we started diving into protocols and smart contract platforms. So 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.880 I'm curious, Um. You know, you have a very diverse background, 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:23.120 living in Russia, living in Switzerland, um, and then obviously 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:26.280 in the United States. So those are three different countries, 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.800 and I think, um, growing up in those are, living 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.240 in those areas, gives you different ideologies which play into 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:34.800 that we'll get into. But I'm curious, Um, And you 0:04:34.839 --> 0:04:37.400 said in twenty sixteen you were looking at tokenizing real estate. 0:04:37.400 --> 0:04:39.880 You found out about blockchain and said, whoa forget real estate? Right, 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:42.640 I'm all in. Um. Was there one thing in particular 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:45.720 that kind of got your eye, um, that really made 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:47.240 you want to just go all in into this kind 0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:51.400 of blockchain technology movement? Oh yes, I think these are 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.320 um two things, mainly from again the personal perspective. One 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:58.080 is that living in three countries so into I moved 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:59.680 to the US into thousand and fifteen, so I was 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.600 already in the in the States, and just moving my 0:05:03.680 --> 0:05:07.920 fun personal funds around three countries was such a pain. 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.760 It was so difficult, and you can imagine what it 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.839 is to transfer from Swiss Bank too, I don't know, 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:17.919 Russian bank, and then to the US bank. It took 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:21.600 me months and weeks and sometimes over a year just 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:25.000 to like manage this accounts. And these were like the 0:05:25.080 --> 0:05:27.880 perfectly legitimate money that I earned for all of my 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:31.480 years working in like perfectly legit corporations. So it was 0:05:31.720 --> 0:05:34.520 just how inefficient the system was. There was one thing, 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:37.119 and then when I discovered bitcoin, I was like, okay, 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.920 so I just click and that's it. So was it? 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:42.320 So was it. It was kind of the ability to 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:45.359 have instead of you you dealt with the problems, the 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:49.320 complexity of having three different countries and three different sets 0:05:49.320 --> 0:05:52.440 of policies and trying to move and then bitcoin kind 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:55.800 of being that own sovereign money that really doesn't need 0:05:55.839 --> 0:05:57.640 a country. I guess is that kind of what you 0:05:58.279 --> 0:06:02.520 absolutely absolutely And within the US, I've changed three states, 0:06:02.680 --> 0:06:05.200 and even within one country, moving from state to state, 0:06:05.279 --> 0:06:07.520 some bank is not present in this state. So when 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.400 I moved from New York, for example, to North Carolina, 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:12.120 the bank that I used in New York that was 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:14.279 in the next three to me, there was no branch 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:17.760 of this bank in North Carolina, so and certain transactions 0:06:17.760 --> 0:06:20.600 they couldn't confirm without me going physically in the branch location. 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:22.760 So it can you imagine to do a transaction, I 0:06:22.760 --> 0:06:25.480 had to fly back to New York and it was 0:06:25.680 --> 0:06:29.120 like those things were totally ridiculous to me. And then 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:32.839 another pivoting point was when we're starting looking at the 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:36.960 real estate, the potential of managing our family's real estate 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:40.800 through to organization, just the whole process how it works 0:06:40.800 --> 0:06:42.440 in the US, I guess you know it better than 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.840 I do. With the title search and all the documents 0:06:45.839 --> 0:06:48.400 that you have to do, and just realizing the potential 0:06:49.040 --> 0:06:51.320 that you can have having this records on the blockchain, 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:52.840 I still think it's too early. I don't think it's 0:06:52.839 --> 0:06:55.400 gonna happen anytime, So not in thousand sixteen, not in 0:06:55.440 --> 0:06:58.360 the thousand nineteen. But when it happens, it's going to 0:06:58.440 --> 0:07:00.880 bring enormous efficiencies and you can only see it. I 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:05.800 guess when you were going yourself this Spain and you 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.400 just realize how quickly you can manage this if this 0:07:09.520 --> 0:07:12.960 was ever on the blockchain. Yeah, you know. Um, I 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:15.560 think kind of the same thing that caught your eye 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:18.000 was the same thing that caught my eye in where 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:20.360 I was looking at setting up like offshore corporations and 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:22.400 bank accounts, just I didn't want to have all my 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.040 money tied up in one thing. I thought, Hey, it's 0:07:24.040 --> 0:07:27.120 all digital money anyway, why not be in Singapore and Panama? 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:29.320 And then I learned about bitcoin and I was like, oh, perfect, 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:32.360 That's what caught my eye. As I learned more about it, 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:35.720 I was like, all in kind of like you, I'm curious. 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:37.680 So I love that. And so for me, a lot 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:40.880 of my content I like to talk about why why bitcoin, 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:42.920 not like what is it? But why? And these are 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:46.160 the things we talked about, right, I'm curious. Um, Coming 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.280 from Russia, and Switzerland, because those are those very interesting 0:07:49.320 --> 0:07:51.840 places for me. So when I think of Russia, I 0:07:51.880 --> 0:07:54.920 think about like, I mean, I'm young, I'm old enough 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.280 to remember before the fall, right, so I kind of 0:07:57.320 --> 0:07:59.000 just grew I grew up in this Cold War era. 0:07:59.040 --> 0:08:01.800 I remember like this oppressive regime, which I would imagine 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:03.840 it's probably pretty hard to get money out of, maybe 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.960 even today. And then I think of Switzerland as like 0:08:07.600 --> 0:08:10.920 the place where people go park their money for privacy. 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:12.840 So you have like this country where it's hard to 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:14.120 get money out of, and then you lived in a 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.480 country where maybe people think about it as like good 0:08:16.520 --> 0:08:21.880 sound money, good banks and privacy. Um is it like that? 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.080 And did those do those visions kind of like did 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:28.119 that draw you into bitcoin bits and pieces? Um? It's yeah, 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:32.000 It's not so much about the ideology and whatever, like 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:35.920 the regime was. It's more about practicality and the bureaucracy 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.000 that you have to deal with in Russia and in 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:40.520 Switzerland to be fair, just to move your money in 0:08:40.720 --> 0:08:46.200 and out being absolutely legit investor. This is what surprises me, 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.040 Like how much, how how much time a person has 0:08:50.080 --> 0:08:53.840 to spend just to have his own funds moving in 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.720 his own accounts, you know, and like these things. It's 0:08:57.720 --> 0:08:59.880 not like in Russia. I didn't have any problems were 0:09:00.320 --> 0:09:03.000 like the regime or whatever. It's again, it's more about 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:05.320 the bureaucracy. It's more about how many papers you have 0:09:05.400 --> 0:09:07.800 to feel how many times you have to prove why 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:10.720 you're moving like funds outside of the country. Oh, because 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:12.559 you don't live here anymore, like this kind of thing. 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:17.200 So I didn't face any like oppressive measures or whatever. 0:09:17.559 --> 0:09:20.080 But it's just like it's just the inefficiencies and the 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:24.160 fact that the country is don't like their systems, don't 0:09:24.160 --> 0:09:26.800 talk to each other. I think they're changing it slowly. 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.559 I think they're bringing more transparency. There was this I 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:32.559 remember when it was enacted, the law that they share 0:09:32.600 --> 0:09:38.960 the information between the tax authorities between the fact fact 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.880 that that was I think maybe around twenties. It's it 0:09:41.920 --> 0:09:46.319 was very recent. That wasn't necessarily a good thing, and 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.280 a lot of opinions, but of course I like to 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:53.360 comply with that. But you know, it's, uh, that's gonna 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:55.080 be interesting and we'll see how that plays out. But 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:56.760 I think, you know, the governments are always going to 0:09:56.800 --> 0:09:58.600 want to try to control that and and so that 0:09:58.640 --> 0:10:02.600 bureaucracy is part of that, um, so and so. But 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:06.880 you also, yeah, like people don't want to share this 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.840 information between countries for the simple reasons because they don't 0:10:09.840 --> 0:10:12.400 want to pay their taxes. And I always remind when 0:10:12.440 --> 0:10:15.320 people say, well, it's like it's oppressive that the country's 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:19.520 required the questless information from Switzerland. I was remind to 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.560 my US friends that the income tax and Russia, at 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.400 least when I was living there was thirteen percent. Is 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:27.120 how is it compared to the US? I was like, 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.480 come on, you can paytent right, It's it's like we're here. 0:10:31.640 --> 0:10:34.120 It's for some people it's almost half of what they earned, 0:10:34.520 --> 0:10:38.280 so it's it's very different. Yeah, and those are those 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.160 are much bigger issues which I would love to talk 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:42.840 to you about, especially in your background. But we won't 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:45.360 dive too much into those today. We'll save those for 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:48.240 another time. But but I get super interested in that 0:10:48.280 --> 0:10:52.320 stuff as well. But so then you're all in sixteen 0:10:52.360 --> 0:10:54.960 you started working with this fund so totially fund now, 0:10:55.000 --> 0:10:57.320 which is peer to peer capital, which is a really 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.880 cool name. Obviously the technology is that appear to peer, right, 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:04.360 and so, um tell us a little bit about the 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.200 the investing thesis and and how you guys are like 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:10.520 looking at the market and approaching the market. Yeah. Sure. 0:11:10.920 --> 0:11:14.440 So we have invested mainly in the productal layer in 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.200 layer one basically since the beginning because we believe that 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.840 this is where the value creul is going to happen mainly. 0:11:21.559 --> 0:11:23.839 And so just to give a little bit overview of 0:11:23.880 --> 0:11:27.160 our work in UM investment portfolios, so started from Ethereum, 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:31.200 from the genesis look of Ethereum. We invested in other 0:11:31.559 --> 0:11:35.640 platforms like Diffinity, like to those like interoperability platforms like 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:41.000 Cosmos and Polka dot Um and also in um more 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.839 experimental platforms like Definity or Salona. I'm gonna talk about 0:11:44.840 --> 0:11:47.559 this a little bit later in more details, but this 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.520 is like the layer one thesis that we outline, and 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.959 the idea is that UM we believe in poly chain 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:55.720 world it's not going to be one chain that's going 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:57.560 to rule at all, but that same time, it's not 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.400 going to be thousands of that so we belief it's 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:04.880 going to be skewed around certain use cases because the 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.720 actually blockchain, the network doesn't need like hundred use cases. 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.240 One to strong use cases is enough for it to 0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:17.200 approve value for example, Bitcoin, it's I think that the 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.600 consensus is around it being it's digital gold and ultimate 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.880 store of value. So even this one use case is enough. 0:12:24.160 --> 0:12:27.280 But if it if it also grows around the medium 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:29.160 of exchange, it's going to be help it. It's going 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:31.440 to help it coin too. But having one or two 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:36.080 strong use cases enough, Ethereum now shapes as a general 0:12:36.480 --> 0:12:39.080 trust layer for all the web free stack. This is 0:12:39.080 --> 0:12:42.320 how we see Ethereum. But it doesn't mean that there 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:44.480 is no place for other change, because they will find 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.480 other use cases. And I think what's also important is 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.240 that we don't look at all the changes competitors to 0:12:50.280 --> 0:12:53.920 Etherium because we don't we should not look at them 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:56.040 as we know all the use cases, and that's what 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.520 they're fighting for. I haven't it exhausted the list of 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:02.600 the use cases. We just like peeked into it, and 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:05.079 now we're already saying, oh, all this change are fighting 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:08.439 for de fight. Well, we just discovered defied year ago. Wait, 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:10.920 we're going to discover something else. We're gonna discover more 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:14.000 use case cases with the change as they grow, as 0:13:14.040 --> 0:13:17.360 they uncover their potential. Yeah, well we're talking about protocols. 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:20.120 I'm curious to get your take, because um, really, I 0:13:20.160 --> 0:13:23.920 think most of seen was kind of dominated by what 0:13:23.960 --> 0:13:28.040 they call the fat protocol thesis right where the Internet. 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.440 To explain it to everybody listening on the Internet, it 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.400 was the applications that really accrued the value, not the protocol, 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:37.040 because the protocols were open source I know, T C, P, I, 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:40.360 p UM, and that in this thesis was that the 0:13:40.400 --> 0:13:43.920 protocols would actually accrue the value, not the applications, UM, 0:13:44.040 --> 0:13:47.600 so the ethereums and whatnot. However, now that narrative seems 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:49.120 to have changed and a lot of people think that 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:51.920 that was a fallacy and that's not the case. But 0:13:52.000 --> 0:13:54.480 you guys still believe the protocols will accrue the value, 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:57.320 or some of them will. I guess yeah. I think 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:00.760 it's just that we're going through over simplification of the 0:14:00.800 --> 0:14:04.160 market to actually understanding how complex it is. So fat 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.480 protocol thesis was I think in the general sense it 0:14:07.679 --> 0:14:11.719 was right. It was just oversimplified because it's not just 0:14:11.800 --> 0:14:14.640 because the protocol exists and their network effects that the 0:14:14.720 --> 0:14:17.000 token is going to accrude value. And I think that's 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.440 where it was the disconnect. And then with all the 0:14:19.560 --> 0:14:21.960 years to come, we saw that if the token economy 0:14:22.040 --> 0:14:24.760 is not built on the right way, the network effects 0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:27.680 will not make the token accrou value. So there will 0:14:28.400 --> 0:14:30.400 we see we saw it was a lot of networks 0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:32.880 which are now have like less than ten million dollars 0:14:32.880 --> 0:14:36.360 market caps that the protocol didn' accrouve value even though 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.600 there was valuable code built on top of it. And 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:41.200 I think the reason for it is that we see 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.720 that the fat protocols are only going to become fat 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.400 if they're underlying economics for the token to accrouve value. 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:49.880 And by this I mean, first of all, if the 0:14:49.920 --> 0:14:55.080 token can gain certain um store failure components. For example, 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.400 either will not compete in store failure for bitcoin, but 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.080 it will gain a store value component, and at least 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:03.320 for sure when it's going to be based on proof 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:06.440 of steak and proof of stake is an interesting UM 0:15:06.600 --> 0:15:09.320 is interesting value chrome mechanism, at least for the short 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.840 term term because it provides liquidity stings, and if you 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.360 don't have these liquidit testings with taking or bonding or 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:20.560 baking whatever, then it's very hard to approve value for 0:15:20.640 --> 0:15:23.080 the token because of the high velocity that it has. 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.840 And the second is what's the usage of the token 0:15:26.280 --> 0:15:28.400 if you can, if there's a certain usage, like you 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:30.800 see for some layer two tokens, for example, I can 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.160 devil in this a little bit later. How the tokens 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.400 accroup value on layer two, because we believe they do 0:15:35.520 --> 0:15:39.840 as well, but only for certain tokens that have the 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:43.040 tap talking mechanics, the token economics, the correct tokn economics 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:46.160 behind it. So for certain layer two tokens, if there's 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:48.880 a usage where you can build the discounted cash flow 0:15:48.920 --> 0:15:52.120 models on, like for example, for Life Beer for their 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:56.680 LPT token which is used to stake to perform transcoding services, 0:15:56.760 --> 0:15:59.320 then there are underlying reasons for it to approve value. 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:04.479 And and also yeah, if if some of this um 0:16:04.560 --> 0:16:07.160 if some of the reasons combined in one token, then 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.120 it even strengthens it. For example, if it's store value 0:16:10.160 --> 0:16:14.120 components plus taking and plus certain usage. But only if 0:16:14.160 --> 0:16:17.600 there's only if this metrics combined, then they will see 0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.800 that protocol value. The producal tokens accrue value, not just 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:23.760 because the prodocol is going to have networks networks effect. 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:25.800 That's what I think. That's where the flat protocol these 0:16:25.840 --> 0:16:28.600 has got at not wrong, but maybe too early. Well, 0:16:28.600 --> 0:16:30.880 I think people thought that just because the token will 0:16:30.880 --> 0:16:33.560 become the most used token, that it would accrue value. 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.720 But velocity doesn't cause it to accrue value, right, So 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.480 there has to be some sort of mechanism built in 0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:42.120 that key wants people to hoard it, right, somebody has 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.640 to store it in order to get that supply demand 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:46.960 to be kind of activated. I guess, um, it's kind 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:51.360 of what you're saying exactly. UM you talked about you 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.960 talked about many protocols, not just one. Um. You know 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:59.320 we see in the Internet. I know that when we're 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.480 talking about an technology here, and I believe this new 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.120 technology is going to be I I kind of look 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.680 at it like we've had like five technological revolutions, um, 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:13.760 Industrial Revolution, you know, steam engines, electricity, automobiles, and the 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:18.520 was this telecommunications where we got the first microprocessor and 0:17:18.560 --> 0:17:19.879 kind of built this whole all the way to the 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.080 Internet age. But I look at this as like the 0:17:22.119 --> 0:17:24.439 next it's fifty they happen every fifty years, is like 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.840 the next revolution. So it's it's bigger than the Internet. 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.959 And sometimes we try to use something we know to 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:32.200 compare it, and then it boxes it in too much. 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.000 But with the with with what we have. Right, when 0:17:35.000 --> 0:17:37.920 you look at the Internet, we do have multiple protocols, right, 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:41.080 one is used for email, one is used for security, 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:43.960 one is used right for different things. And so maybe 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.159 you're talking like that where we have different protocols and 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:51.240 and they're used for different applications. Yeah, exactly. Specifization is 0:17:51.320 --> 0:17:54.040 one of the aspects of coward thesis. So we believe 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:56.359 that it's not going to be just one protocol layer. 0:17:56.400 --> 0:17:58.440 It's not going to be just one smart contract platform. 0:17:58.520 --> 0:18:01.200 Let's put it this way. But there's not gonna be 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.960 hundreds of said, so they will they will find their 0:18:04.080 --> 0:18:07.080 niches where they're what they're best at. For example, Tissos 0:18:07.520 --> 0:18:12.000 is best ats on chain governance, and we're gonna see 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.040 governance is a separate topic because I'm still like, I 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:19.159 cannot shape our opinion if governance is fundamentally valuable. But 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:21.520 at least we're going to see this experiment with Tessos. 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.480 Uh than if the developers and the community finds it 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:30.160 fundamentally valuable, then tsos got gets a niche because it's 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:32.040 so far as the only platform. And we've seen this 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.720 with their recent Athens that yeah, Athens uprate that it 0:18:36.160 --> 0:18:40.000 works so far it works, so they are finding their 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:44.560 valuable niche in this. Then if we look at um 0:18:44.680 --> 0:18:47.280 platforms like like Tessa's part of our portfolio, but I 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.840 also I try to speak about different platforms sometimes even 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:51.760 if they're not part of our portfolio, so it doesn't 0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:55.000 sound like I'm only talking our books. So if we 0:18:55.080 --> 0:18:58.000 are like if we look at Cardono, their value proposition 0:18:58.280 --> 0:19:03.360 is deep academic your review and their fundamental value proposition 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.560 as as I understand it again, is that the other 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:12.040 chains are too experimental and not validated academically as strongly 0:19:12.040 --> 0:19:14.639 as Cardano is. So in the long term, they're all 0:19:14.680 --> 0:19:17.520 going to fail because of the technological reasons, and Cardan 0:19:17.560 --> 0:19:19.960 it's gonna stand, and it's gonna if there are any 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.879 other like useful features, not the networks, they're gonna pbsorb. 0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:25.280 But again we're gonna see if the market is gonna 0:19:25.280 --> 0:19:27.119 take it and if they're gonna be interesting for the market. 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:31.280 If we look at eos Um, eos is like, I 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:33.679 don't know, I don't even understand why people compared so 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.240 much to Etherium because I think they're totally different platforms. 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:40.679 Us is not competing for being a general trust layer 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:43.879 for the web three as Ethereum is just because of 0:19:44.000 --> 0:19:48.480 its obvious centralization properties. But at the same time, first 0:19:48.480 --> 0:19:50.800 of all, it's backed by block one, which has huge 0:19:50.840 --> 0:19:54.560 exposure to media industry and gaming, and they are supporting 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:57.000 a lot of projects that are building on it, something 0:19:57.000 --> 0:20:01.320 that Ethereum doesn't have. And then it has it's looking 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:04.440 into gaming industry, and this is not something I'm very 0:20:04.440 --> 0:20:07.760 familiar with, so I cannot again judge how promising this is. 0:20:07.800 --> 0:20:11.120 But again, looking at what they're doing, they're finding their 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:14.560 niche and it might well be that they're gonna find it, 0:20:14.680 --> 0:20:17.840 especially with the billion dollars that they have in the 0:20:17.880 --> 0:20:19.960 world chest to support all the projects that are building 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.240 at it. So this is how we look at the 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:26.800 market and um. So generally our portfolio is split between 0:20:26.840 --> 0:20:32.440 like certain store of value coins like bitcoin and its rim. 0:20:32.480 --> 0:20:34.240 We kind of put in this category because we believe 0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:37.240 it from all the other tokens that's the most proven. 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.200 Then the tokens that go into the new trend which 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:45.600 is taking which we believe also going to be of 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:48.800 the market excluding Bitcoin, will be in proof of steak networks, 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:50.960 and so in this bucket with wait so you you 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.159 say bitcoin will move into a proof of steak Oh no, no, no, 0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.159 I mean except from bitcoin if we take bitcoin, because 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.960 I don't compare any of these assets with Bitcoin, because 0:21:00.000 --> 0:21:03.120 I believe they're fundamentally different. So whatever I say seven 0:21:03.640 --> 0:21:06.000 of the market, I'm talking about the market except bit 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.480