Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like
Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly,
Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information
Speaker 1: we need to make conformed and educated decisions to have success.
Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us
Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get
Speaker 1: this started. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of
Speaker 1: the Market Disruptors podcast. This week we are joined by
Speaker 1: cats Ya from Peer to Peer Capital. She has an
Speaker 1: amazing story. She's lived in Russia, Switzerland and now the US.
Speaker 1: An amazing story of how she's gone from investing in
Speaker 1: different asset classes and into cryptocurrencies and why, and we
Speaker 1: talk about her fund, her thesis, um, how they look
Speaker 1: at the market, how they're investing, how they look at risk,
Speaker 1: and so many other fascinating things. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: really good stuff to get out of this episode. Can't
Speaker 1: wait to jump into it. So let's go. All right, guys,
Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of Art Constructors podcast. I have
Speaker 1: Catia from Peer to Peer Capital on today, and she
Speaker 1: has a really unique insight into some sectors of the
Speaker 1: market that a lot of people have been looking at,
Speaker 1: specifically about protocols. She wrote a paper on protocols which
Speaker 1: really caught my eye and I led some really interesting
Speaker 1: conversations and so let's just jump right in. So Katia, welcome, Hi,
Speaker 1: good to be here. So um for for those that
Speaker 1: probably haven't read your paper, no much about you, just
Speaker 1: give us a quick um intro on your background and
Speaker 1: how you got here into the blockchain space, right now? Sure? Sure?
Speaker 1: So I was born and raised in Russia and moved
Speaker 1: to Switzerland in my early twenties and started my career
Speaker 1: in well. I had education and finance and financial managements
Speaker 1: and investments. I wrote my diploma and investment climate, and
Speaker 1: I guess after writing the Diploma of Investment Climent, I
Speaker 1: realized that investment climate in Russia was not that good.
Speaker 1: So I moved to Switzerland and then started working in
Speaker 1: power management and magists after mainly, and that's where I've
Speaker 1: built my career mostly for the ten years, and always
Speaker 1: been in finance part of it. And also I've been
Speaker 1: into startups, very interesting crazy startups and energy storage, battery
Speaker 1: grid management, so those kind of things. And in early
Speaker 1: two thousands sixteen, i've through actually my family business. I've
Speaker 1: met a team who are doing um watching investments since
Speaker 1: two thousands fourteen, so they've been in the market for
Speaker 1: a couple of years. And since my family was in
Speaker 1: the real estate and we were looking how to uh
Speaker 1: that's actually a separate story, but we're looking at how
Speaker 1: to talken eyes real estate investments. But we didn't know
Speaker 1: the word talking I yet. We were just looking at
Speaker 1: the way of making it more easy and accessible and
Speaker 1: liquid to the market. And then friends said, well, you
Speaker 1: should look at this blotching thing, and so we started
Speaker 1: working with like with the teams who can help us
Speaker 1: with and then when we realized the potential of it,
Speaker 1: and when I saw what it was this, I was like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I'm not interested in real estate anymore. I'm not interested
Speaker 1: in whatever I was doing in corporate finance in my
Speaker 1: corporate career in big multinationals, and I was diving in
Speaker 1: it had had first since two thousand sixteen. So I
Speaker 1: joined the group of private investors and at the time
Speaker 1: they were running the fund which is called SATUCI Fund,
Speaker 1: and then we rebranded to ptop Capital last year, but
Speaker 1: it was mainly just changing the structure of the fund.
Speaker 1: But their investment thesis has been pretty stable let's say
Speaker 1: since the beginning, so since it's a thousand fourteen, the
Speaker 1: team has discovered that there can be alternative assets to bitcoin,
Speaker 1: and they wrote a thesis around it that bitcoin is
Speaker 1: a store of value, and we realized the potential of it,
Speaker 1: but they can be other interesting use cases that can
Speaker 1: have a huge potential, And of course even now we
Speaker 1: still cannot see what the potential is, but it was
Speaker 1: clear that as that it's going to be interesting. So
Speaker 1: it started investing like very early projects from Ethereum, like
Speaker 1: the Genesis, Walck, Criterium, bit Shears made Safe all Us
Speaker 1: like the starting projects, and then I joined and then
Speaker 1: we started diving into protocols and smart contract platforms. So
Speaker 1: I'm curious, Um. You know, you have a very diverse background,
Speaker 1: living in Russia, living in Switzerland, um, and then obviously
Speaker 1: in the United States. So those are three different countries,
Speaker 1: and I think, um, growing up in those are, living
Speaker 1: in those areas, gives you different ideologies which play into
Speaker 1: that we'll get into. But I'm curious, Um, And you
Speaker 1: said in twenty sixteen you were looking at tokenizing real estate.
Speaker 1: You found out about blockchain and said, whoa forget real estate? Right,
Speaker 1: I'm all in. Um. Was there one thing in particular
Speaker 1: that kind of got your eye, um, that really made
Speaker 1: you want to just go all in into this kind
Speaker 1: of blockchain technology movement? Oh yes, I think these are
Speaker 1: um two things, mainly from again the personal perspective. One
Speaker 1: is that living in three countries so into I moved
Speaker 1: to the US into thousand and fifteen, so I was
Speaker 1: already in the in the States, and just moving my
Speaker 1: fun personal funds around three countries was such a pain.
Speaker 1: It was so difficult, and you can imagine what it
Speaker 1: is to transfer from Swiss Bank too, I don't know,
Speaker 1: Russian bank, and then to the US bank. It took
Speaker 1: me months and weeks and sometimes over a year just
Speaker 1: to like manage this accounts. And these were like the
Speaker 1: perfectly legitimate money that I earned for all of my
Speaker 1: years working in like perfectly legit corporations. So it was
Speaker 1: just how inefficient the system was. There was one thing,
Speaker 1: and then when I discovered bitcoin, I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: so I just click and that's it. So was it?
Speaker 1: So was it. It was kind of the ability to
Speaker 1: have instead of you you dealt with the problems, the
Speaker 1: complexity of having three different countries and three different sets
Speaker 1: of policies and trying to move and then bitcoin kind
Speaker 1: of being that own sovereign money that really doesn't need
Speaker 1: a country. I guess is that kind of what you
Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely And within the US, I've changed three states,
Speaker 1: and even within one country, moving from state to state,
Speaker 1: some bank is not present in this state. So when
Speaker 1: I moved from New York, for example, to North Carolina,
Speaker 1: the bank that I used in New York that was
Speaker 1: in the next three to me, there was no branch
Speaker 1: of this bank in North Carolina, so and certain transactions
Speaker 1: they couldn't confirm without me going physically in the branch location.
Speaker 1: So it can you imagine to do a transaction, I
Speaker 1: had to fly back to New York and it was
Speaker 1: like those things were totally ridiculous to me. And then
Speaker 1: another pivoting point was when we're starting looking at the
Speaker 1: real estate, the potential of managing our family's real estate
Speaker 1: through to organization, just the whole process how it works
Speaker 1: in the US, I guess you know it better than
Speaker 1: I do. With the title search and all the documents
Speaker 1: that you have to do, and just realizing the potential
Speaker 1: that you can have having this records on the blockchain,
Speaker 1: I still think it's too early. I don't think it's
Speaker 1: gonna happen anytime, So not in thousand sixteen, not in
Speaker 1: the thousand nineteen. But when it happens, it's going to
Speaker 1: bring enormous efficiencies and you can only see it. I
Speaker 1: guess when you were going yourself this Spain and you
Speaker 1: just realize how quickly you can manage this if this
Speaker 1: was ever on the blockchain. Yeah, you know. Um, I
Speaker 1: think kind of the same thing that caught your eye
Speaker 1: was the same thing that caught my eye in where
Speaker 1: I was looking at setting up like offshore corporations and
Speaker 1: bank accounts, just I didn't want to have all my
Speaker 1: money tied up in one thing. I thought, Hey, it's
Speaker 1: all digital money anyway, why not be in Singapore and Panama?
Speaker 1: And then I learned about bitcoin and I was like, oh, perfect,
Speaker 1: That's what caught my eye. As I learned more about it,
Speaker 1: I was like, all in kind of like you, I'm curious.
Speaker 1: So I love that. And so for me, a lot
Speaker 1: of my content I like to talk about why why bitcoin,
Speaker 1: not like what is it? But why? And these are
Speaker 1: the things we talked about, right, I'm curious. Um, Coming
Speaker 1: from Russia, and Switzerland, because those are those very interesting
Speaker 1: places for me. So when I think of Russia, I
Speaker 1: think about like, I mean, I'm young, I'm old enough
Speaker 1: to remember before the fall, right, so I kind of
Speaker 1: just grew I grew up in this Cold War era.
Speaker 1: I remember like this oppressive regime, which I would imagine
Speaker 1: it's probably pretty hard to get money out of, maybe
Speaker 1: even today. And then I think of Switzerland as like
Speaker 1: the place where people go park their money for privacy.
Speaker 1: So you have like this country where it's hard to
Speaker 1: get money out of, and then you lived in a
Speaker 1: country where maybe people think about it as like good
Speaker 1: sound money, good banks and privacy. Um is it like that?
Speaker 1: And did those do those visions kind of like did
Speaker 1: that draw you into bitcoin bits and pieces? Um? It's yeah,
Speaker 1: It's not so much about the ideology and whatever, like
Speaker 1: the regime was. It's more about practicality and the bureaucracy
Speaker 1: that you have to deal with in Russia and in
Speaker 1: Switzerland to be fair, just to move your money in
Speaker 1: and out being absolutely legit investor. This is what surprises me,
Speaker 1: Like how much, how how much time a person has
Speaker 1: to spend just to have his own funds moving in
Speaker 1: his own accounts, you know, and like these things. It's
Speaker 1: not like in Russia. I didn't have any problems were
Speaker 1: like the regime or whatever. It's again, it's more about
Speaker 1: the bureaucracy. It's more about how many papers you have
Speaker 1: to feel how many times you have to prove why
Speaker 1: you're moving like funds outside of the country. Oh, because
Speaker 1: you don't live here anymore, like this kind of thing.
Speaker 1: So I didn't face any like oppressive measures or whatever.
Speaker 1: But it's just like it's just the inefficiencies and the
Speaker 1: fact that the country is don't like their systems, don't
Speaker 1: talk to each other. I think they're changing it slowly.
Speaker 1: I think they're bringing more transparency. There was this I
Speaker 1: remember when it was enacted, the law that they share
Speaker 1: the information between the tax authorities between the fact fact
Speaker 1: that that was I think maybe around twenties. It's it
Speaker 1: was very recent. That wasn't necessarily a good thing, and
Speaker 1: a lot of opinions, but of course I like to
Speaker 1: comply with that. But you know, it's, uh, that's gonna
Speaker 1: be interesting and we'll see how that plays out. But
Speaker 1: I think, you know, the governments are always going to
Speaker 1: want to try to control that and and so that
Speaker 1: bureaucracy is part of that, um, so and so. But
Speaker 1: you also, yeah, like people don't want to share this
Speaker 1: information between countries for the simple reasons because they don't
Speaker 1: want to pay their taxes. And I always remind when
Speaker 1: people say, well, it's like it's oppressive that the country's
Speaker 1: required the questless information from Switzerland. I was remind to
Speaker 1: my US friends that the income tax and Russia, at
Speaker 1: least when I was living there was thirteen percent. Is
Speaker 1: how is it compared to the US? I was like,
Speaker 1: come on, you can paytent right, It's it's like we're here.
Speaker 1: It's for some people it's almost half of what they earned,
Speaker 1: so it's it's very different. Yeah, and those are those
Speaker 1: are much bigger issues which I would love to talk
Speaker 1: to you about, especially in your background. But we won't
Speaker 1: dive too much into those today. We'll save those for
Speaker 1: another time. But but I get super interested in that
Speaker 1: stuff as well. But so then you're all in sixteen
Speaker 1: you started working with this fund so totially fund now,
Speaker 1: which is peer to peer capital, which is a really
Speaker 1: cool name. Obviously the technology is that appear to peer, right,
Speaker 1: and so, um tell us a little bit about the
Speaker 1: the investing thesis and and how you guys are like
Speaker 1: looking at the market and approaching the market. Yeah. Sure.
Speaker 1: So we have invested mainly in the productal layer in
Speaker 1: layer one basically since the beginning because we believe that
Speaker 1: this is where the value creul is going to happen mainly.
Speaker 1: And so just to give a little bit overview of
Speaker 1: our work in UM investment portfolios, so started from Ethereum,
Speaker 1: from the genesis look of Ethereum. We invested in other
Speaker 1: platforms like Diffinity, like to those like interoperability platforms like
Speaker 1: Cosmos and Polka dot Um and also in um more
Speaker 1: experimental platforms like Definity or Salona. I'm gonna talk about
Speaker 1: this a little bit later in more details, but this
Speaker 1: is like the layer one thesis that we outline, and
Speaker 1: the idea is that UM we believe in poly chain
Speaker 1: world it's not going to be one chain that's going
Speaker 1: to rule at all, but that same time, it's not
Speaker 1: going to be thousands of that so we belief it's
Speaker 1: going to be skewed around certain use cases because the
Speaker 1: actually blockchain, the network doesn't need like hundred use cases.
Speaker 1: One to strong use cases is enough for it to
Speaker 1: approve value for example, Bitcoin, it's I think that the
Speaker 1: consensus is around it being it's digital gold and ultimate
Speaker 1: store of value. So even this one use case is enough.
Speaker 1: But if it if it also grows around the medium
Speaker 1: of exchange, it's going to be help it. It's going
Speaker 1: to help it coin too. But having one or two
Speaker 1: strong use cases enough, Ethereum now shapes as a general
Speaker 1: trust layer for all the web free stack. This is
Speaker 1: how we see Ethereum. But it doesn't mean that there
Speaker 1: is no place for other change, because they will find
Speaker 1: other use cases. And I think what's also important is
Speaker 1: that we don't look at all the changes competitors to
Speaker 1: Etherium because we don't we should not look at them
Speaker 1: as we know all the use cases, and that's what
Speaker 1: they're fighting for. I haven't it exhausted the list of
Speaker 1: the use cases. We just like peeked into it, and
Speaker 1: now we're already saying, oh, all this change are fighting
Speaker 1: for de fight. Well, we just discovered defied year ago. Wait,
Speaker 1: we're going to discover something else. We're gonna discover more
Speaker 1: use case cases with the change as they grow, as
Speaker 1: they uncover their potential. Yeah, well we're talking about protocols.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to get your take, because um, really, I
Speaker 1: think most of seen was kind of dominated by what
Speaker 1: they call the fat protocol thesis right where the Internet.
Speaker 1: To explain it to everybody listening on the Internet, it
Speaker 1: was the applications that really accrued the value, not the protocol,
Speaker 1: because the protocols were open source I know, T C, P, I,
Speaker 1: p UM, and that in this thesis was that the
Speaker 1: protocols would actually accrue the value, not the applications, UM,
Speaker 1: so the ethereums and whatnot. However, now that narrative seems
Speaker 1: to have changed and a lot of people think that
Speaker 1: that was a fallacy and that's not the case. But
Speaker 1: you guys still believe the protocols will accrue the value,
Speaker 1: or some of them will. I guess yeah. I think
Speaker 1: it's just that we're going through over simplification of the
Speaker 1: market to actually understanding how complex it is. So fat
Speaker 1: protocol thesis was I think in the general sense it
Speaker 1: was right. It was just oversimplified because it's not just
Speaker 1: because the protocol exists and their network effects that the
Speaker 1: token is going to accrude value. And I think that's
Speaker 1: where it was the disconnect. And then with all the
Speaker 1: years to come, we saw that if the token economy
Speaker 1: is not built on the right way, the network effects
Speaker 1: will not make the token accrou value. So there will
Speaker 1: we see we saw it was a lot of networks
Speaker 1: which are now have like less than ten million dollars
Speaker 1: market caps that the protocol didn' accrouve value even though
Speaker 1: there was valuable code built on top of it. And
Speaker 1: I think the reason for it is that we see
Speaker 1: that the fat protocols are only going to become fat
Speaker 1: if they're underlying economics for the token to accrouve value.
Speaker 1: And by this I mean, first of all, if the
Speaker 1: token can gain certain um store failure components. For example,
Speaker 1: either will not compete in store failure for bitcoin, but
Speaker 1: it will gain a store value component, and at least
Speaker 1: for sure when it's going to be based on proof
Speaker 1: of steak and proof of stake is an interesting UM
Speaker 1: is interesting value chrome mechanism, at least for the short
Speaker 1: term term because it provides liquidity stings, and if you
Speaker 1: don't have these liquidit testings with taking or bonding or
Speaker 1: baking whatever, then it's very hard to approve value for
Speaker 1: the token because of the high velocity that it has.
Speaker 1: And the second is what's the usage of the token
Speaker 1: if you can, if there's a certain usage, like you
Speaker 1: see for some layer two tokens, for example, I can
Speaker 1: devil in this a little bit later. How the tokens
Speaker 1: accroup value on layer two, because we believe they do
Speaker 1: as well, but only for certain tokens that have the
Speaker 1: tap talking mechanics, the token economics, the correct tokn economics
Speaker 1: behind it. So for certain layer two tokens, if there's
Speaker 1: a usage where you can build the discounted cash flow
Speaker 1: models on, like for example, for Life Beer for their
Speaker 1: LPT token which is used to stake to perform transcoding services,
Speaker 1: then there are underlying reasons for it to approve value.
Speaker 1: And and also yeah, if if some of this um
Speaker 1: if some of the reasons combined in one token, then
Speaker 1: it even strengthens it. For example, if it's store value
Speaker 1: components plus taking and plus certain usage. But only if
Speaker 1: there's only if this metrics combined, then they will see
Speaker 1: that protocol value. The producal tokens accrue value, not just
Speaker 1: because the prodocol is going to have networks networks effect.
Speaker 1: That's what I think. That's where the flat protocol these
Speaker 1: has got at not wrong, but maybe too early. Well,
Speaker 1: I think people thought that just because the token will
Speaker 1: become the most used token, that it would accrue value.
Speaker 1: But velocity doesn't cause it to accrue value, right, So
Speaker 1: there has to be some sort of mechanism built in
Speaker 1: that key wants people to hoard it, right, somebody has
Speaker 1: to store it in order to get that supply demand
Speaker 1: to be kind of activated. I guess, um, it's kind
Speaker 1: of what you're saying exactly. UM you talked about you
Speaker 1: talked about many protocols, not just one. Um. You know
Speaker 1: we see in the Internet. I know that when we're
Speaker 1: talking about an technology here, and I believe this new
Speaker 1: technology is going to be I I kind of look
Speaker 1: at it like we've had like five technological revolutions, um,
Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution, you know, steam engines, electricity, automobiles, and the
Speaker 1: was this telecommunications where we got the first microprocessor and
Speaker 1: kind of built this whole all the way to the
Speaker 1: Internet age. But I look at this as like the
Speaker 1: next it's fifty they happen every fifty years, is like
Speaker 1: the next revolution. So it's it's bigger than the Internet.
Speaker 1: And sometimes we try to use something we know to
Speaker 1: compare it, and then it boxes it in too much.
Speaker 1: But with the with with what we have. Right, when
Speaker 1: you look at the Internet, we do have multiple protocols, right,
Speaker 1: one is used for email, one is used for security,
Speaker 1: one is used right for different things. And so maybe
Speaker 1: you're talking like that where we have different protocols and
Speaker 1: and they're used for different applications. Yeah, exactly. Specifization is
Speaker 1: one of the aspects of coward thesis. So we believe
Speaker 1: that it's not going to be just one protocol layer.
Speaker 1: It's not going to be just one smart contract platform.
Speaker 1: Let's put it this way. But there's not gonna be
Speaker 1: hundreds of said, so they will they will find their
Speaker 1: niches where they're what they're best at. For example, Tissos
Speaker 1: is best ats on chain governance, and we're gonna see
Speaker 1: governance is a separate topic because I'm still like, I
Speaker 1: cannot shape our opinion if governance is fundamentally valuable. But
Speaker 1: at least we're going to see this experiment with Tessos.
Speaker 1: Uh than if the developers and the community finds it
Speaker 1: fundamentally valuable, then tsos got gets a niche because it's
Speaker 1: so far as the only platform. And we've seen this
Speaker 1: with their recent Athens that yeah, Athens uprate that it
Speaker 1: works so far it works, so they are finding their
Speaker 1: valuable niche in this. Then if we look at um
Speaker 1: platforms like like Tessa's part of our portfolio, but I
Speaker 1: also I try to speak about different platforms sometimes even
Speaker 1: if they're not part of our portfolio, so it doesn't
Speaker 1: sound like I'm only talking our books. So if we
Speaker 1: are like if we look at Cardono, their value proposition
Speaker 1: is deep academic your review and their fundamental value proposition
Speaker 1: as as I understand it again, is that the other
Speaker 1: chains are too experimental and not validated academically as strongly
Speaker 1: as Cardano is. So in the long term, they're all
Speaker 1: going to fail because of the technological reasons, and Cardan
Speaker 1: it's gonna stand, and it's gonna if there are any
Speaker 1: other like useful features, not the networks, they're gonna pbsorb.
Speaker 1: But again we're gonna see if the market is gonna
Speaker 1: take it and if they're gonna be interesting for the market.
Speaker 1: If we look at eos Um, eos is like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I don't even understand why people compared so
Speaker 1: much to Etherium because I think they're totally different platforms.
Speaker 1: Us is not competing for being a general trust layer
Speaker 1: for the web three as Ethereum is just because of
Speaker 1: its obvious centralization properties. But at the same time, first
Speaker 1: of all, it's backed by block one, which has huge
Speaker 1: exposure to media industry and gaming, and they are supporting
Speaker 1: a lot of projects that are building on it, something
Speaker 1: that Ethereum doesn't have. And then it has it's looking
Speaker 1: into gaming industry, and this is not something I'm very
Speaker 1: familiar with, so I cannot again judge how promising this is.
Speaker 1: But again, looking at what they're doing, they're finding their
Speaker 1: niche and it might well be that they're gonna find it,
Speaker 1: especially with the billion dollars that they have in the
Speaker 1: world chest to support all the projects that are building
Speaker 1: at it. So this is how we look at the
Speaker 1: market and um. So generally our portfolio is split between
Speaker 1: like certain store of value coins like bitcoin and its rim.
Speaker 1: We kind of put in this category because we believe
Speaker 1: it from all the other tokens that's the most proven.
Speaker 1: Then the tokens that go into the new trend which
Speaker 1: is taking which we believe also going to be of
Speaker 1: the market excluding Bitcoin, will be in proof of steak networks,
Speaker 1: and so in this bucket with wait so you you
Speaker 1: say bitcoin will move into a proof of steak Oh no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I mean except from bitcoin if we take bitcoin, because
Speaker 1: I don't compare any of these assets with Bitcoin, because
Speaker 1: I believe they're fundamentally different. So whatever I say seven
Speaker 1: of the market, I'm talking about the market except bit
Speaker 1: got it? Got it? Okay? So yeah, so I believe
Speaker 1: this fift of the market will be in proof of
Speaker 1: stake networks. And this is also like one of the
Speaker 1: largest buckets in our portfolio, which is whereas like Cosmos,
Speaker 1: Polkad Tisso's our grand new cipher as well. And then
Speaker 1: also one like the last bucket is experimental platforms. This
Speaker 1: is like Salona and difinity. It's very hard to shape
Speaker 1: the theefs and where these platforms are going to be
Speaker 1: best at because they're so new and they're so different
Speaker 1: and their positions themselves so differently from the other than
Speaker 1: we just put it like, we think it's very interesting
Speaker 1: technology and we believe it's experimental. So this is kind
Speaker 1: of the third bucket where we don't know how it's
Speaker 1: going to turn out about it's different, interesting to look
Speaker 1: at it. Yeah. Now, a lot of funds um you know,
Speaker 1: especially the ones that are more connected VC funds, and
Speaker 1: we see in Silicon Valley and whatnot are really trying
Speaker 1: to get more into like equity. It seems like these days, Um,
Speaker 1: do you guys always try to see if you can
Speaker 1: get in like seed round equity or do you guys
Speaker 1: also play open market tokens? We do all of it.
Speaker 1: So the way we structure, yeah, the way we structure
Speaker 1: our business. And again we're private investment firms, so there's
Speaker 1: not a lot of information I can disclose, but I
Speaker 1: could speak about the general structure. How how we do it?
Speaker 1: So um yeah, sure, um so um. It's about half
Speaker 1: of the portfolio is like a tradable portfolio, and this
Speaker 1: is we always adjust our positions on the market based
Speaker 1: on trends, so we're not actively trading. What do we
Speaker 1: do like when fundamental shift and we see the fundamental shift,
Speaker 1: we we do portfolio rebalancing. And then the rest of
Speaker 1: it is split between the liquid tokens. This means the
Speaker 1: tokens that are invested or bonded which are not immediately tradeable,
Speaker 1: and and a venture investing, which is about twenty of
Speaker 1: the portfolio depending on the time. And yeah, in venture investing,
Speaker 1: we UM. We started with doing only tokens back in
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, and now we do both tokens
Speaker 1: and equity. But of course the idea is to sometimes
Speaker 1: we get in equity for the reasons that the project
Speaker 1: is in the very early stage and they're talking economy
Speaker 1: is not fairly yet, and actually it's preferential then investing
Speaker 1: in the seed stage when the project has the white
Speaker 1: paper outlining the exact mechanics of all it's talken, because
Speaker 1: sometimes it's too unrealistic to predict how exactly it's going
Speaker 1: to work, and it's better to get into in equity.
Speaker 1: But it's important to have the exposure to the underlying
Speaker 1: asset because if UM and by that I mean having
Speaker 1: convertible equity or any other like talking options. There are
Speaker 1: different types of arrangements you can have, but we usually
Speaker 1: don't do pure equity because most of the projects, I
Speaker 1: guess all of the projects were investing. They have the
Speaker 1: underlying assets, they have the underlying talking and we want
Speaker 1: to have exposure to it. But we also want to
Speaker 1: have the product, want to give the project time to
Speaker 1: figure out the talking economy, and we actually don't only
Speaker 1: give them time. We work very closely. Well, our portfolio
Speaker 1: companies on this to help them structure talking economy and
Speaker 1: then gain exposure to the underlying said. So that's that's
Speaker 1: pretty much how we co over. So since you believe
Speaker 1: in your your view is kind of that multiple chains
Speaker 1: will be you know, all kind of coexisting in the future. UM,
Speaker 1: I take it. Maybe you believe that bitcoin is probably
Speaker 1: has the best chance of survival and being there in
Speaker 1: the future, but maybe some of these other chains maybe
Speaker 1: present better investment opportunities, meaning over the next you know,
Speaker 1: five years, they'll probably increase faster than Bitcoin. Well, so
Speaker 1: maybe bitcoin is a safer play, but the other ones
Speaker 1: are more explosive. Uh, it could be. But still bitcoin
Speaker 1: is our larger, largest bit on the portfolio. And um,
Speaker 1: I think that bitcoin bitcoin has not reached its explosive
Speaker 1: growth either. So it's just to me, it's like even
Speaker 1: if you look at your traditional portfolio, you keep some
Speaker 1: of your funds and equities, someone bonds and someone gold.
Speaker 1: It's just very different as and some you might be
Speaker 1: investing in some hedge funds or vcs. If you are
Speaker 1: in the credit that investor and you have exposure to it,
Speaker 1: I view it the same. Wait, so I think, yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: let's talk about that harbor. Yeah, it's a safe harbor,
Speaker 1: but it hasn't reached it school potential yet. Sure, yeah,
Speaker 1: and I agree. I mean I I see it much
Speaker 1: much higher than it is today. I'm just thinking some
Speaker 1: of these, you know, other projects might go up faster,
Speaker 1: right because they still have they're still we don't know
Speaker 1: where that's going to go. But curious kind of what
Speaker 1: you just said. UM So, I believe in acid allocation
Speaker 1: I talked about all the time, right, Like, nobody should
Speaker 1: be getting wrecked in this market. You shouldn't put all
Speaker 1: your money into it. Um So, you should only be
Speaker 1: putting a you know, a portion of your assets into
Speaker 1: this and whatever that percentage is for you. But within
Speaker 1: that allocation that someone puts into crypto, UM, do you
Speaker 1: really think there's a way to diversify that or is
Speaker 1: it really just all lumped in crypto um or how
Speaker 1: do you guys look at that? Well, crypto market is
Speaker 1: still very correlated, even though we've seen them this this
Speaker 1: year that bitcoin got separated more from the other assets
Speaker 1: as we've seen in the recent kind of bull market. UM,
Speaker 1: we've seen that bitcoin has really separated itself from all
Speaker 1: the rest of the market. But I still think it's
Speaker 1: very correlated. And why because the main use case is
Speaker 1: still speculation until we get to use it. Until we
Speaker 1: get these tokens uh used as they were intended to
Speaker 1: instead of being speculated on, then we're going to see
Speaker 1: the uncorrelated market. Then we're going to see that you
Speaker 1: can really diversify for now. Yeah, I think diversification is
Speaker 1: a big word for crypto because it's still it's still
Speaker 1: mainly about speculation, and I think it's not there's nothing
Speaker 1: wrong with it. This is how markets evolve. They start
Speaker 1: with speculation, they start with trading. But until we see
Speaker 1: most of these tokens being used and being traded and
Speaker 1: purchased for their intended value, we're going to see them
Speaker 1: being highly correlated. And that's why I think that's a
Speaker 1: poor diversification strategy. If you're diversifying in different market platform tokens,
Speaker 1: that's put it this way. Yeah, so I agree with you.
Speaker 1: Right where we're at right now, we're in a spect
Speaker 1: reulation phase and it just is what it is. Um
Speaker 1: So I guess what you're saying is then you know,
Speaker 1: only take a percentage and allocate towards crypto, but then
Speaker 1: it's not really diversified. It's just it's just kind of
Speaker 1: in crypto. Maybe you know, maybe some is more into
Speaker 1: like bitcoin etherium, which is a little bit safer, and
Speaker 1: then some is into more like moonshots or whatever. But
Speaker 1: for the most part, it's still pretty correlated. So it's
Speaker 1: all kind of not very diversified. Yeah, it depends. It
Speaker 1: depends on whom you're talking to. If you're a professional
Speaker 1: crypto investor, of course you look at it differently. And
Speaker 1: that's like if we're talking about professional crypto investors like
Speaker 1: like Austin, like yourself too, then it's very different because
Speaker 1: you're diving into the details. But most most investors, as
Speaker 1: you see them, and like as I talked to that
Speaker 1: like more in the traditional investing business, they see cryptos
Speaker 1: one a st class, and that's how I usually tell
Speaker 1: them to look at it. Like I usually don't have
Speaker 1: an advice to get anything beyond bitcoin and etherium, because
Speaker 1: otherwise you have to form an investment these that's around it,
Speaker 1: and you have to like you cannot just buy tokens
Speaker 1: just to diversify. You have to perform an invest some
Speaker 1: pieces are you investing in smart contract platforms. Are you
Speaker 1: investing in identity LA you're are you investing in defy?
Speaker 1: Are you investing in decentralized computing? They are already different
Speaker 1: these that's forming around this asset class. And yes, of
Speaker 1: course in this sense there is a lot of diversification opportunities.
Speaker 1: But again, if you're a professional crypto investor, not if
Speaker 1: you're an outside investor looking to diversify your portfolio, then
Speaker 1: I guess that's point and ether are the best bets.
Speaker 1: I think even the way we talk about it shows
Speaker 1: how early we are. Right For example, right we're calling
Speaker 1: it an asset class and talking about investing in the crypto.
Speaker 1: You wouldn't say, like, I invest in the Internet right now.
Speaker 1: In you would in ninety nine you would say that
Speaker 1: I'm investing on the Internet. Um, I was young, and
Speaker 1: my roommate and I we thought we were day traders
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, and we're playing these Internet stocks,
Speaker 1: and so we did. But today you would never go, oh,
Speaker 1: I invest in the Internet. Just that that doesn't work.
Speaker 1: And so I think that just shows how early we are.
Speaker 1: We Yeah, we we look at cryptos and asset class,
Speaker 1: but really it shouldn't and that just shows how early
Speaker 1: we are. UM. Yeah, so it's interesting. UM, but I
Speaker 1: agree with you, right, it can be dangerous and so
Speaker 1: just practice asset allocation if anything else. What do you
Speaker 1: think about I think we both agree on like how
Speaker 1: early we are we talked about, Um, really it's speculation
Speaker 1: right now. UM. I see people talking about bitcoin, even
Speaker 1: bitcoin being you know, one of the longest running chains,
Speaker 1: and trying to still call it a money, a medium
Speaker 1: of exchange, or even a store of value, which I
Speaker 1: think is all too early. UM. What do you think
Speaker 1: about some of the maybe use cases that we're starting
Speaker 1: to see. Do you think we're gaining any traction or
Speaker 1: do you think we're just still maybe a year or
Speaker 1: two away from seeing anything really start to take hold. Um.
Speaker 1: I think the main mistake, but maybe misunderstanding of the
Speaker 1: market that most investments have me included, UM, is that
Speaker 1: I think we get the general trends right, we get
Speaker 1: the timing wrong, and like looking at the market at
Speaker 1: the thousand sixteen, I remember what we're talking about, Oh,
Speaker 1: this is this is going to happen in two or
Speaker 1: three years. Well, two or three years have passed and
Speaker 1: very little has happened. So I think like, as you said,
Speaker 1: when you were looking at the Internet, you should look
Speaker 1: in ten fifteen years ri since if you're looking into
Speaker 1: like real shifts in the use cases. So yeah, like
Speaker 1: I don't like now, I don't even say, oh, in
Speaker 1: two or three years, X, Y and Z just gonna happen,
Speaker 1: because it's probably not. And it's to some extent it's
Speaker 1: disappointing that it's moving so slowly, but I understand that
Speaker 1: that that's how it's probably gonna work, and that's how
Speaker 1: it works for most technologies. So I think also, it's
Speaker 1: like we're like watching paint dry, Like we're sitting there
Speaker 1: watching it every day. But if you really step back
Speaker 1: and look what's happened in the last two years, for example,
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of moving pretty fast. It is if
Speaker 1: you're inside this industry. It is if you're if you're
Speaker 1: an insider, you're like, oh my god, there are hundreds
Speaker 1: things of happening. Look defiled, look make dolls, CDPs. But
Speaker 1: we can do so many things. But if you talk
Speaker 1: to an outsider and say, and the person will tell, well,
Speaker 1: how can I use it, You're like, um, well, look,
Speaker 1: this is making down. This is like you cannot open
Speaker 1: the CDP. It's still it's super exciting if you're inside
Speaker 1: this industry and you're playing with this, and I agree
Speaker 1: with this, like all the defied movement excites me. If
Speaker 1: you're asking about the trends, I think this is one
Speaker 1: of the most interesting trends. Then. Um, of course, the
Speaker 1: staking and the governance and how all this proof of
Speaker 1: state network is gonna launch and play out. This is
Speaker 1: super interesting to watch. We just had Cosmos launched, we
Speaker 1: had Tasos launched last year, and we're gonna have Palka
Speaker 1: Dot launched this year. So I'm very excited to see
Speaker 1: how this is gonna play out. Again, all the games,
Speaker 1: theory and all of this is going to evolve in
Speaker 1: years time when the network is going to grow in value,
Speaker 1: when there's the security budget, let's say, the network is
Speaker 1: going to be much higher, and it's going to be
Speaker 1: much more interesting to watch this all unfold. What else
Speaker 1: I'm very excited that about is Interiorum two point zero,
Speaker 1: of course, because they have such an um crazy ambitious roadmap,
Speaker 1: and again where now only talking about the roadmap in
Speaker 1: and you know how software development goes, it's never going
Speaker 1: to be completed in two any twenty one. So it's
Speaker 1: like it's going to be completed later, and then after
Speaker 1: it's going to be completed, it's going to be a
Speaker 1: period of adaptation of people moving to the new change.
Speaker 1: So if we're gonna see all this new trends taken
Speaker 1: on but slowly, and in terms of bitcoin, I think
Speaker 1: a lot of maybe it's a little bit controversial, but
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them. Um, A lot of
Speaker 1: the projects around bitcoin spending, bitcoin paying and whole foods,
Speaker 1: I think there are a little bit of distraction. They're
Speaker 1: good marketing effort. It's nice. It's nice to see it
Speaker 1: in the news. Oh now you can pay for your
Speaker 1: groceries with bitcoin, But honestly, I don't want to pay
Speaker 1: with my groceries with with bitcoin. And yeah, I think
Speaker 1: this is not a primarily used case. Um so yeah,
Speaker 1: like if talking about the advantage of bitcoin, I'm more
Speaker 1: interested about privacy about it's the like the improvements in
Speaker 1: bitcoin that the core development wasn't working on. But this
Speaker 1: like little marketing thing. So I think I good for
Speaker 1: the general public to see the US like, oh, this
Speaker 1: big chain accepts bitcoin, but I think it's more like
Speaker 1: noise over signal. I I would agree with you. I
Speaker 1: think there's definitely pros and cons to that. Um. I
Speaker 1: think it's nice because I guess it does increase awareness,
Speaker 1: but it pushes the wrong narrative. And really, I think
Speaker 1: we have to understand that there's this evolution, right, and
Speaker 1: and we're kind of going from like a collectible and
Speaker 1: we'll eventually get to this store of value stage. Bitcoin
Speaker 1: is not even a good store of value. It's too
Speaker 1: volatible right now, but it's getting there, and it will
Speaker 1: get there, and then after we get to the store value,
Speaker 1: then eventually we'll get to that medium of exchange. Right. Um.
Speaker 1: But uh, but to try and push it as that today,
Speaker 1: I mean I look back because I started in two
Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen and and I was I bought a
Speaker 1: lot of bitcoin. They're cheap back then, and through like
Speaker 1: the tweventeen run, I started just spending bitcoins like they
Speaker 1: were just chicklets, like oh yeah, bitcoin, bitcoin, bit pin,
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you know, it hit
Speaker 1: wherever it's tied. I'm like, what did I do with
Speaker 1: all these big Why did I spend them? You know, Uh,
Speaker 1: you don't want to be the big point pizza guy, right, No, yeah,
Speaker 1: you don't want to be the bitcoin pizza guy and
Speaker 1: you spend it. You spend an inflationary currency, you don't
Speaker 1: spend a deflationary currency, right right, Yeah, you know it's
Speaker 1: good for adoption, it's good or good for awareness, but
Speaker 1: definitely too really for a for adoption for sure. So
Speaker 1: but the DeFi space is one that I like, I like,
Speaker 1: I like that, As you said, I think that's kind
Speaker 1: of exciting. Are you guys looking at that at all?
Speaker 1: Or just really more in the protocols, because there are
Speaker 1: some defied protocols that we're starting to see, Oh yes,
Speaker 1: for sure, and most of them are built on ethereum.
Speaker 1: So again back to our thesis, we believe that if
Speaker 1: this protocols became valuable, etherium becomes valuable and our underlying
Speaker 1: investments become valuable. So there's some layer two or reason
Speaker 1: I heard the term security layer and execution layer and
Speaker 1: like it even more than layer were one on layer
Speaker 1: two because it's different. But so some of these protocols
Speaker 1: on layer two will be able to capture value separately
Speaker 1: from ethereum, and we do invest in some of them,
Speaker 1: like for example, life beer is one of those um
Speaker 1: or the reacts. Uh, it's they're they're improving ethereum, they're
Speaker 1: improving the ecosystem, but they're also separate layer two networks
Speaker 1: that can also gain value and prove value because they're
Speaker 1: holding some valuable states in it. So I think it's
Speaker 1: important to see defy. It's a very interesting trend, but
Speaker 1: I think each it's important to look at each platform
Speaker 1: and see if the underlying asset is going to improve
Speaker 1: value because the platform itself and the software itself may
Speaker 1: be extremely interesting, but the valuable still still complete ethereum.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so I think we look at it separately.
Speaker 1: We think all of these protocols like DOHRMA, like d I,
Speaker 1: d X, Maker die. Of course we use it extensively.
Speaker 1: We use make a dial and that's what I'm excited about.
Speaker 1: It's one of the few blockchain tools that you actually
Speaker 1: use for its intended purpose, not like not the speculation,
Speaker 1: and very excited about this use cases. So we've been
Speaker 1: using Maker Doubt for a while. We've been using their
Speaker 1: CDPs and looking for the multichollateral dye to come on
Speaker 1: to come on boards so we can use like for example,
Speaker 1: digits tokens like goldback tokens to CDPs. So this is
Speaker 1: very interesting. But again we'll look at it separately as
Speaker 1: a use case or as an investment. As a use case,
Speaker 1: they're all extremely exciting. As an investment, you have to
Speaker 1: see like we're we don't own, for example, maker tokens,
Speaker 1: but we do use maker dow extensively. So that's the difference. Okay. Um.
Speaker 1: One last topical that dip into just a little bit
Speaker 1: is UH is risk and and and risk management. Um.
Speaker 1: I think obviously every single project is going to have
Speaker 1: its own set of risks, right, um. Whatever that may
Speaker 1: be risk from the team, risk from other competing. But
Speaker 1: then I think we have maybe we have a risk
Speaker 1: over kind of the asset class from like regulations and
Speaker 1: stuff like that, Like where do you see risk and
Speaker 1: how do you guys, um kind of plan that out
Speaker 1: in your investing thesis. Oh, I don't like this topic.
Speaker 1: I'm kidding because there's just so many risks in crypto now.
Speaker 1: It's just like full of risks. But to be serious, um,
Speaker 1: the different buckets of risks. One is the inherent risks
Speaker 1: of the token economy being not thought through. And this
Speaker 1: is the very obvious one, and this is what we
Speaker 1: look at the first place. It's like the on the
Speaker 1: micro level. UM. If you look at the project, the
Speaker 1: risk is that the token is not going to prove value.
Speaker 1: And we can draw models as long as we can,
Speaker 1: but until you invest, if you invest in the token
Speaker 1: that's not treated yet and not used for its intended purpose,
Speaker 1: you have no idea if the token economy that's been
Speaker 1: drawn on the white board is actually going to work
Speaker 1: in practice. That's why we do invest a lot in
Speaker 1: the tokens that traded on the market. And we talk
Speaker 1: to projects sometimes and we love the project and we
Speaker 1: love the token, and we say, guy, we're gonna invest
Speaker 1: in it at the higher price, but we want to
Speaker 1: do risk. We want to do risk your token economy.
Speaker 1: We want to do risk, your um, your mechanics, who
Speaker 1: want to see how it works, And that's what we do.
Speaker 1: We do a lot of market investing were by tokens
Speaker 1: on the open market too, So we don't only do
Speaker 1: venture deals for the specific reason, because sometimes we believe
Speaker 1: if it's all very theoretical and bettery, new is just
Speaker 1: too risky. UM. So this is one of the office risks.
Speaker 1: But of course the regulatory risk that you're talking about
Speaker 1: is another big one because we're based in the US
Speaker 1: and you're based in the US two and you know
Speaker 1: how unpredictable it can be. But also at the same time,
Speaker 1: it's unpredicable, but it's predictable. If you are issuing a token.
Speaker 1: Most of the projects have to think that they have
Speaker 1: highly like likelihood of being deemed the security at some
Speaker 1: point in time, and they should start I guess they're
Speaker 1: thinking from this point of view because we heard so
Speaker 1: many projects that they're saying, oh, we're utility token that
Speaker 1: this is why kind of like, well, you haven't got
Speaker 1: any approval from the legislature for being a YouTube. It's
Speaker 1: a token. It's what we have invented, like the industry
Speaker 1: have invented instead of itself. And some lawyers had said
Speaker 1: that yeah, that works, I mean yes and no. Right, So,
Speaker 1: like you take like a storage application, like a file
Speaker 1: coin or storage coin or whatever. Right, so I could
Speaker 1: have like decentralized storage I could store instead of using Dropbox,
Speaker 1: I could store my files decentralized. In order to use that,
Speaker 1: I have to use their credits or their tokens um.
Speaker 1: But like if I use in the traditional sense, I
Speaker 1: use let's say I use a shutter stock for stock
Speaker 1: photography or video block for stock videography, And to use
Speaker 1: those platforms, I have to buy credits and then I
Speaker 1: redeem their credits for those photos. I redeem those credits
Speaker 1: for That's how it works. And those credits I buy
Speaker 1: are not securities, and those credits are not attacked. So
Speaker 1: if I buy a token to use on video or
Speaker 1: file coin, they're treating that as a as a security,
Speaker 1: of treating that as a as a as an ASCID,
Speaker 1: as a taxable event. So we we have like real
Speaker 1: world This is where I lose it. It's like we
Speaker 1: have this real world example. I get reward points at target.
Speaker 1: Those aren't taxable, right, but all of a sudden, because
Speaker 1: it's now a token, it is. So what do you
Speaker 1: think about that? Well, I totally agree with you. But
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that's what we think the legislators
Speaker 1: are gonna say, and that's where the risks are. So
Speaker 1: it totally makes sense. But then because it hasn't proven itself.
Speaker 1: And now actually with the skin Kick case, you've seen
Speaker 1: it yesterday, the SEC decided to see you. I mean
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of was expected that they will see
Speaker 1: them but at least it's gonna show some clarity because
Speaker 1: for now it's more what the industry inside of itself thinks,
Speaker 1: what's going to happen and what makes sense, and that's
Speaker 1: what we hope is going to happen, because yeah, most
Speaker 1: of these tokens are intended for its intended purpose. But
Speaker 1: you can see the the kin token, for example, it
Speaker 1: also has an intended purpose. But I have no idea
Speaker 1: how it's going to turn out because there have been
Speaker 1: a lot of gray areas how it's been sold, how
Speaker 1: it's been marketed, what the team members have advertised, what
Speaker 1: they've said. So until we have one, two, three, ten
Speaker 1: cases like this which are public and open and give
Speaker 1: a public precedent, I think there's still high risk. Even
Speaker 1: that the recent fence and guidance that was issued a
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, it had a lot of new
Speaker 1: points that were not mentioned before because before I remember,
Speaker 1: there was only the main concept was that if your
Speaker 1: network is fully functional at the moment of sale of talking,
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be considered a security. That was kind of
Speaker 1: the general understanding, but now they have added many more
Speaker 1: points to it. They were like, it's it's not supposed
Speaker 1: to be traded for example, remember they were they were saying,
Speaker 1: like nobo, what what the exact term was, But it
Speaker 1: was not supposed to be openly traded on the market,
Speaker 1: only through like your designated app or something. But that
Speaker 1: so that's where the regulators are gonna that's the threat
Speaker 1: at I see, because um, I see this token economy
Speaker 1: where it unlocks value. So right now I have value
Speaker 1: stuck in my airline rewards points, and I have value
Speaker 1: stuck in my whatever target reward points, and I have
Speaker 1: value stuck in all these silos and it's stuck. But
Speaker 1: if we can tokenize that, then all that value can
Speaker 1: freely exchange. But what what that Fincent as you're pointing
Speaker 1: out specifically says is you cannot you can't exchange that.
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, and so all this we're talking
Speaker 1: about like n f T s and video games. So
Speaker 1: now I could earn this skin from my video game
Speaker 1: and I should be able to freely exchange that. But
Speaker 1: what that regulation says is no value has to stay
Speaker 1: in a silo. And so that's very scary. So we'll
Speaker 1: see how that how that we're just in the beginning, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it's to the guidance, then this is not a
Speaker 1: court key. And this is also important, and that's I
Speaker 1: think what they said themselves, like, this is a guidance,
Speaker 1: it's a framework, but until it's been tested and coured,
Speaker 1: we cannot say that this is a rule said and
Speaker 1: still so yeah, we have. At a recent conference I
Speaker 1: was at, there was someone from the SEC talking and
Speaker 1: they said, look, you guys are all waiting for us
Speaker 1: to come out and tell you what you can do.
Speaker 1: That's never gonna happen. We don't tell you what you
Speaker 1: can do. You're allowed to do whatever you do. We'll
Speaker 1: only tell you when you can't. And so, as you said, right,
Speaker 1: we'll have to see it playing out over court cases,
Speaker 1: and it's just going to be a slow, slow role
Speaker 1: Out's going to be interesting to watch exactly. But we
Speaker 1: should also shouldn't forget about the rest of the world.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's very said when the projects have
Speaker 1: to exclude the US because of this regulation, but there's
Speaker 1: still a big white world there and some countries I
Speaker 1: believe will be pioneering very open legislation. It's going to
Speaker 1: be very interesting to watch. And I'm not only talked
Speaker 1: about like Malta but also I think maybe we're going
Speaker 1: to see more innovation coming from Singapore Hong Kong because
Speaker 1: their legislators are going to move faster than the US legislators.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's also interesting to watch what's going
Speaker 1: to happen on this side of the world. Yeah, as Ah,
Speaker 1: you're you're more of an international citizen, having lived in
Speaker 1: three countries. Um, I think a lot of Americans, uh don't.
Speaker 1: Seems like a lot of Americans don't really travel that
Speaker 1: much and they just kind of stay focused and so um,
Speaker 1: it's definitely gonna be a lot scarier for them. I'm
Speaker 1: not thinking globally, But great stuff, gotcha. I I really
Speaker 1: appreciate this. It's been been a fascinating conversation. Um, there's
Speaker 1: so many areas that I'd love to dive in deeper
Speaker 1: with you. So hopefully we'll get together and be able
Speaker 1: to talk about that. But I don't want to. I
Speaker 1: don't want to keep keep you too long. We've already
Speaker 1: gone over past what I told you. So anyway, it
Speaker 1: was it was great. Uh nice talking to you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was super nice and thanks for having it was
Speaker 1: a great discussion. Yeah, I'm happy to talk again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll have you back on soon. All right, thank you,
Speaker 1: all right, thank you. All right. Hey, if you like
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