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Speaker 1: So the big question is this, how do investors like

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Speaker 1: us get access to the ideas, information, and most importantly,

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Speaker 1: the right people that give us the tools and information

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Speaker 1: we need to make conformed and educated decisions to have success.

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Speaker 1: That is the question, and this podcast will give us

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Speaker 1: the answers. This is Mark Moss, your host. Let's get

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Speaker 1: this started. Hey everyone, welcome back to another episode of

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Speaker 1: the Market Disruptors podcast. This week we are joined by

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Speaker 1: cats Ya from Peer to Peer Capital. She has an

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Speaker 1: amazing story. She's lived in Russia, Switzerland and now the US.

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Speaker 1: An amazing story of how she's gone from investing in

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Speaker 1: different asset classes and into cryptocurrencies and why, and we

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Speaker 1: talk about her fund, her thesis, um, how they look

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Speaker 1: at the market, how they're investing, how they look at risk,

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Speaker 1: and so many other fascinating things. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: really good stuff to get out of this episode. Can't

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Speaker 1: wait to jump into it. So let's go. All right, guys,

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Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of Art Constructors podcast. I have

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Speaker 1: Catia from Peer to Peer Capital on today, and she

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Speaker 1: has a really unique insight into some sectors of the

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Speaker 1: market that a lot of people have been looking at,

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Speaker 1: specifically about protocols. She wrote a paper on protocols which

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Speaker 1: really caught my eye and I led some really interesting

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Speaker 1: conversations and so let's just jump right in. So Katia, welcome, Hi,

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Speaker 1: good to be here. So um for for those that

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Speaker 1: probably haven't read your paper, no much about you, just

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Speaker 1: give us a quick um intro on your background and

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Speaker 1: how you got here into the blockchain space, right now? Sure? Sure?

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Speaker 1: So I was born and raised in Russia and moved

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Speaker 1: to Switzerland in my early twenties and started my career

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Speaker 1: in well. I had education and finance and financial managements

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Speaker 1: and investments. I wrote my diploma and investment climate, and

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Speaker 1: I guess after writing the Diploma of Investment Climent, I

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Speaker 1: realized that investment climate in Russia was not that good.

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Speaker 1: So I moved to Switzerland and then started working in

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Speaker 1: power management and magists after mainly, and that's where I've

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Speaker 1: built my career mostly for the ten years, and always

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Speaker 1: been in finance part of it. And also I've been

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Speaker 1: into startups, very interesting crazy startups and energy storage, battery

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Speaker 1: grid management, so those kind of things. And in early

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Speaker 1: two thousands sixteen, i've through actually my family business. I've

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Speaker 1: met a team who are doing um watching investments since

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Speaker 1: two thousands fourteen, so they've been in the market for

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Speaker 1: a couple of years. And since my family was in

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Speaker 1: the real estate and we were looking how to uh

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Speaker 1: that's actually a separate story, but we're looking at how

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Speaker 1: to talken eyes real estate investments. But we didn't know

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Speaker 1: the word talking I yet. We were just looking at

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Speaker 1: the way of making it more easy and accessible and

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Speaker 1: liquid to the market. And then friends said, well, you

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Speaker 1: should look at this blotching thing, and so we started

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Speaker 1: working with like with the teams who can help us

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Speaker 1: with and then when we realized the potential of it,

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Speaker 1: and when I saw what it was this, I was like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm not interested in real estate anymore. I'm not interested

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Speaker 1: in whatever I was doing in corporate finance in my

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Speaker 1: corporate career in big multinationals, and I was diving in

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Speaker 1: it had had first since two thousand sixteen. So I

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Speaker 1: joined the group of private investors and at the time

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Speaker 1: they were running the fund which is called SATUCI Fund,

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Speaker 1: and then we rebranded to ptop Capital last year, but

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Speaker 1: it was mainly just changing the structure of the fund.

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Speaker 1: But their investment thesis has been pretty stable let's say

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Speaker 1: since the beginning, so since it's a thousand fourteen, the

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Speaker 1: team has discovered that there can be alternative assets to bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: and they wrote a thesis around it that bitcoin is

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Speaker 1: a store of value, and we realized the potential of it,

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Speaker 1: but they can be other interesting use cases that can

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Speaker 1: have a huge potential, And of course even now we

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Speaker 1: still cannot see what the potential is, but it was

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Speaker 1: clear that as that it's going to be interesting. So

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Speaker 1: it started investing like very early projects from Ethereum, like

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Speaker 1: the Genesis, Walck, Criterium, bit Shears made Safe all Us

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Speaker 1: like the starting projects, and then I joined and then

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Speaker 1: we started diving into protocols and smart contract platforms. So

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, Um. You know, you have a very diverse background,

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Speaker 1: living in Russia, living in Switzerland, um, and then obviously

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Speaker 1: in the United States. So those are three different countries,

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Speaker 1: and I think, um, growing up in those are, living

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Speaker 1: in those areas, gives you different ideologies which play into

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Speaker 1: that we'll get into. But I'm curious, Um, And you

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Speaker 1: said in twenty sixteen you were looking at tokenizing real estate.

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Speaker 1: You found out about blockchain and said, whoa forget real estate? Right,

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Speaker 1: I'm all in. Um. Was there one thing in particular

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Speaker 1: that kind of got your eye, um, that really made

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Speaker 1: you want to just go all in into this kind

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Speaker 1: of blockchain technology movement? Oh yes, I think these are

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Speaker 1: um two things, mainly from again the personal perspective. One

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Speaker 1: is that living in three countries so into I moved

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Speaker 1: to the US into thousand and fifteen, so I was

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Speaker 1: already in the in the States, and just moving my

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Speaker 1: fun personal funds around three countries was such a pain.

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Speaker 1: It was so difficult, and you can imagine what it

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Speaker 1: is to transfer from Swiss Bank too, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: Russian bank, and then to the US bank. It took

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Speaker 1: me months and weeks and sometimes over a year just

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Speaker 1: to like manage this accounts. And these were like the

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Speaker 1: perfectly legitimate money that I earned for all of my

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Speaker 1: years working in like perfectly legit corporations. So it was

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Speaker 1: just how inefficient the system was. There was one thing,

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Speaker 1: and then when I discovered bitcoin, I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so I just click and that's it. So was it?

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Speaker 1: So was it. It was kind of the ability to

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Speaker 1: have instead of you you dealt with the problems, the

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Speaker 1: complexity of having three different countries and three different sets

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Speaker 1: of policies and trying to move and then bitcoin kind

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Speaker 1: of being that own sovereign money that really doesn't need

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Speaker 1: a country. I guess is that kind of what you

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Speaker 1: absolutely absolutely And within the US, I've changed three states,

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Speaker 1: and even within one country, moving from state to state,

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Speaker 1: some bank is not present in this state. So when

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Speaker 1: I moved from New York, for example, to North Carolina,

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Speaker 1: the bank that I used in New York that was

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Speaker 1: in the next three to me, there was no branch

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Speaker 1: of this bank in North Carolina, so and certain transactions

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Speaker 1: they couldn't confirm without me going physically in the branch location.

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Speaker 1: So it can you imagine to do a transaction, I

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Speaker 1: had to fly back to New York and it was

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Speaker 1: like those things were totally ridiculous to me. And then

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Speaker 1: another pivoting point was when we're starting looking at the

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Speaker 1: real estate, the potential of managing our family's real estate

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Speaker 1: through to organization, just the whole process how it works

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Speaker 1: in the US, I guess you know it better than

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Speaker 1: I do. With the title search and all the documents

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Speaker 1: that you have to do, and just realizing the potential

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Speaker 1: that you can have having this records on the blockchain,

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Speaker 1: I still think it's too early. I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: gonna happen anytime, So not in thousand sixteen, not in

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Speaker 1: the thousand nineteen. But when it happens, it's going to

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Speaker 1: bring enormous efficiencies and you can only see it. I

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Speaker 1: guess when you were going yourself this Spain and you

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Speaker 1: just realize how quickly you can manage this if this

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Speaker 1: was ever on the blockchain. Yeah, you know. Um, I

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Speaker 1: think kind of the same thing that caught your eye

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Speaker 1: was the same thing that caught my eye in where

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Speaker 1: I was looking at setting up like offshore corporations and

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Speaker 1: bank accounts, just I didn't want to have all my

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Speaker 1: money tied up in one thing. I thought, Hey, it's

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Speaker 1: all digital money anyway, why not be in Singapore and Panama?

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Speaker 1: And then I learned about bitcoin and I was like, oh, perfect,

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Speaker 1: That's what caught my eye. As I learned more about it,

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Speaker 1: I was like, all in kind of like you, I'm curious.

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Speaker 1: So I love that. And so for me, a lot

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Speaker 1: of my content I like to talk about why why bitcoin,

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Speaker 1: not like what is it? But why? And these are

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Speaker 1: the things we talked about, right, I'm curious. Um, Coming

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Speaker 1: from Russia, and Switzerland, because those are those very interesting

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Speaker 1: places for me. So when I think of Russia, I

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Speaker 1: think about like, I mean, I'm young, I'm old enough

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Speaker 1: to remember before the fall, right, so I kind of

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Speaker 1: just grew I grew up in this Cold War era.

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Speaker 1: I remember like this oppressive regime, which I would imagine

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Speaker 1: it's probably pretty hard to get money out of, maybe

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Speaker 1: even today. And then I think of Switzerland as like

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Speaker 1: the place where people go park their money for privacy.

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Speaker 1: So you have like this country where it's hard to

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Speaker 1: get money out of, and then you lived in a

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Speaker 1: country where maybe people think about it as like good

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Speaker 1: sound money, good banks and privacy. Um is it like that?

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Speaker 1: And did those do those visions kind of like did

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Speaker 1: that draw you into bitcoin bits and pieces? Um? It's yeah,

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Speaker 1: It's not so much about the ideology and whatever, like

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Speaker 1: the regime was. It's more about practicality and the bureaucracy

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Speaker 1: that you have to deal with in Russia and in

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Speaker 1: Switzerland to be fair, just to move your money in

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Speaker 1: and out being absolutely legit investor. This is what surprises me,

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Speaker 1: Like how much, how how much time a person has

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Speaker 1: to spend just to have his own funds moving in

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Speaker 1: his own accounts, you know, and like these things. It's

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Speaker 1: not like in Russia. I didn't have any problems were

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Speaker 1: like the regime or whatever. It's again, it's more about

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Speaker 1: the bureaucracy. It's more about how many papers you have

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Speaker 1: to feel how many times you have to prove why

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Speaker 1: you're moving like funds outside of the country. Oh, because

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Speaker 1: you don't live here anymore, like this kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: So I didn't face any like oppressive measures or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But it's just like it's just the inefficiencies and the

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Speaker 1: fact that the country is don't like their systems, don't

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Speaker 1: talk to each other. I think they're changing it slowly.

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Speaker 1: I think they're bringing more transparency. There was this I

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Speaker 1: remember when it was enacted, the law that they share

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Speaker 1: the information between the tax authorities between the fact fact

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Speaker 1: that that was I think maybe around twenties. It's it

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Speaker 1: was very recent. That wasn't necessarily a good thing, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of opinions, but of course I like to

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Speaker 1: comply with that. But you know, it's, uh, that's gonna

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Speaker 1: be interesting and we'll see how that plays out. But

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, the governments are always going to

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Speaker 1: want to try to control that and and so that

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Speaker 1: bureaucracy is part of that, um, so and so. But

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Speaker 1: you also, yeah, like people don't want to share this

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Speaker 1: information between countries for the simple reasons because they don't

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Speaker 1: want to pay their taxes. And I always remind when

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Speaker 1: people say, well, it's like it's oppressive that the country's

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Speaker 1: required the questless information from Switzerland. I was remind to

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Speaker 1: my US friends that the income tax and Russia, at

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Speaker 1: least when I was living there was thirteen percent. Is

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Speaker 1: how is it compared to the US? I was like,

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Speaker 1: come on, you can paytent right, It's it's like we're here.

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Speaker 1: It's for some people it's almost half of what they earned,

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Speaker 1: so it's it's very different. Yeah, and those are those

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Speaker 1: are much bigger issues which I would love to talk

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Speaker 1: to you about, especially in your background. But we won't

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Speaker 1: dive too much into those today. We'll save those for

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Speaker 1: another time. But but I get super interested in that

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Speaker 1: stuff as well. But so then you're all in sixteen

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Speaker 1: you started working with this fund so totially fund now,

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Speaker 1: which is peer to peer capital, which is a really

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Speaker 1: cool name. Obviously the technology is that appear to peer, right,

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Speaker 1: and so, um tell us a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: the investing thesis and and how you guys are like

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Speaker 1: looking at the market and approaching the market. Yeah. Sure.

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Speaker 1: So we have invested mainly in the productal layer in

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Speaker 1: layer one basically since the beginning because we believe that

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Speaker 1: this is where the value creul is going to happen mainly.

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Speaker 1: And so just to give a little bit overview of

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Speaker 1: our work in UM investment portfolios, so started from Ethereum,

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Speaker 1: from the genesis look of Ethereum. We invested in other

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Speaker 1: platforms like Diffinity, like to those like interoperability platforms like

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Speaker 1: Cosmos and Polka dot Um and also in um more

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Speaker 1: experimental platforms like Definity or Salona. I'm gonna talk about

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Speaker 1: this a little bit later in more details, but this

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Speaker 1: is like the layer one thesis that we outline, and

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Speaker 1: the idea is that UM we believe in poly chain

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Speaker 1: world it's not going to be one chain that's going

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Speaker 1: to rule at all, but that same time, it's not

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Speaker 1: going to be thousands of that so we belief it's

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Speaker 1: going to be skewed around certain use cases because the

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Speaker 1: actually blockchain, the network doesn't need like hundred use cases.

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Speaker 1: One to strong use cases is enough for it to

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Speaker 1: approve value for example, Bitcoin, it's I think that the

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Speaker 1: consensus is around it being it's digital gold and ultimate

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Speaker 1: store of value. So even this one use case is enough.

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Speaker 1: But if it if it also grows around the medium

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Speaker 1: of exchange, it's going to be help it. It's going

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Speaker 1: to help it coin too. But having one or two

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Speaker 1: strong use cases enough, Ethereum now shapes as a general

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Speaker 1: trust layer for all the web free stack. This is

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Speaker 1: how we see Ethereum. But it doesn't mean that there

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Speaker 1: is no place for other change, because they will find

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Speaker 1: other use cases. And I think what's also important is

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Speaker 1: that we don't look at all the changes competitors to

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Speaker 1: Etherium because we don't we should not look at them

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Speaker 1: as we know all the use cases, and that's what

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Speaker 1: they're fighting for. I haven't it exhausted the list of

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Speaker 1: the use cases. We just like peeked into it, and

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Speaker 1: now we're already saying, oh, all this change are fighting

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Speaker 1: for de fight. Well, we just discovered defied year ago. Wait,

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Speaker 1: we're going to discover something else. We're gonna discover more

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Speaker 1: use case cases with the change as they grow, as

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Speaker 1: they uncover their potential. Yeah, well we're talking about protocols.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious to get your take, because um, really, I

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Speaker 1: think most of seen was kind of dominated by what

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Speaker 1: they call the fat protocol thesis right where the Internet.

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Speaker 1: To explain it to everybody listening on the Internet, it

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Speaker 1: was the applications that really accrued the value, not the protocol,

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Speaker 1: because the protocols were open source I know, T C, P, I,

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Speaker 1: p UM, and that in this thesis was that the

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Speaker 1: protocols would actually accrue the value, not the applications, UM,

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Speaker 1: so the ethereums and whatnot. However, now that narrative seems

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Speaker 1: to have changed and a lot of people think that

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Speaker 1: that was a fallacy and that's not the case. But

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Speaker 1: you guys still believe the protocols will accrue the value,

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Speaker 1: or some of them will. I guess yeah. I think

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Speaker 1: it's just that we're going through over simplification of the

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Speaker 1: market to actually understanding how complex it is. So fat

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Speaker 1: protocol thesis was I think in the general sense it

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Speaker 1: was right. It was just oversimplified because it's not just

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Speaker 1: because the protocol exists and their network effects that the

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Speaker 1: token is going to accrude value. And I think that's

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Speaker 1: where it was the disconnect. And then with all the

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Speaker 1: years to come, we saw that if the token economy

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Speaker 1: is not built on the right way, the network effects

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Speaker 1: will not make the token accrou value. So there will

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Speaker 1: we see we saw it was a lot of networks

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Speaker 1: which are now have like less than ten million dollars

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Speaker 1: market caps that the protocol didn' accrouve value even though

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Speaker 1: there was valuable code built on top of it. And

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Speaker 1: I think the reason for it is that we see

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Speaker 1: that the fat protocols are only going to become fat

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Speaker 1: if they're underlying economics for the token to accrouve value.

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Speaker 1: And by this I mean, first of all, if the

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Speaker 1: token can gain certain um store failure components. For example,

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Speaker 1: either will not compete in store failure for bitcoin, but

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Speaker 1: it will gain a store value component, and at least

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Speaker 1: for sure when it's going to be based on proof

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Speaker 1: of steak and proof of stake is an interesting UM

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Speaker 1: is interesting value chrome mechanism, at least for the short

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Speaker 1: term term because it provides liquidity stings, and if you

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Speaker 1: don't have these liquidit testings with taking or bonding or

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Speaker 1: baking whatever, then it's very hard to approve value for

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Speaker 1: the token because of the high velocity that it has.

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Speaker 1: And the second is what's the usage of the token

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Speaker 1: if you can, if there's a certain usage, like you

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Speaker 1: see for some layer two tokens, for example, I can

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Speaker 1: devil in this a little bit later. How the tokens

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Speaker 1: accroup value on layer two, because we believe they do

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Speaker 1: as well, but only for certain tokens that have the

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Speaker 1: tap talking mechanics, the token economics, the correct tokn economics

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Speaker 1: behind it. So for certain layer two tokens, if there's

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Speaker 1: a usage where you can build the discounted cash flow

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Speaker 1: models on, like for example, for Life Beer for their

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Speaker 1: LPT token which is used to stake to perform transcoding services,

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Speaker 1: then there are underlying reasons for it to approve value.

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Speaker 1: And and also yeah, if if some of this um

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Speaker 1: if some of the reasons combined in one token, then

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Speaker 1: it even strengthens it. For example, if it's store value

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Speaker 1: components plus taking and plus certain usage. But only if

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Speaker 1: there's only if this metrics combined, then they will see

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Speaker 1: that protocol value. The producal tokens accrue value, not just

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Speaker 1: because the prodocol is going to have networks networks effect.

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Speaker 1: That's what I think. That's where the flat protocol these

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Speaker 1: has got at not wrong, but maybe too early. Well,

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Speaker 1: I think people thought that just because the token will

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Speaker 1: become the most used token, that it would accrue value.

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Speaker 1: But velocity doesn't cause it to accrue value, right, So

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Speaker 1: there has to be some sort of mechanism built in

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Speaker 1: that key wants people to hoard it, right, somebody has

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Speaker 1: to store it in order to get that supply demand

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Speaker 1: to be kind of activated. I guess, um, it's kind

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Speaker 1: of what you're saying exactly. UM you talked about you

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Speaker 1: talked about many protocols, not just one. Um. You know

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Speaker 1: we see in the Internet. I know that when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about an technology here, and I believe this new

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Speaker 1: technology is going to be I I kind of look

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Speaker 1: at it like we've had like five technological revolutions, um,

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Speaker 1: Industrial Revolution, you know, steam engines, electricity, automobiles, and the

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Speaker 1: was this telecommunications where we got the first microprocessor and

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Speaker 1: kind of built this whole all the way to the

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Speaker 1: Internet age. But I look at this as like the

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Speaker 1: next it's fifty they happen every fifty years, is like

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Speaker 1: the next revolution. So it's it's bigger than the Internet.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes we try to use something we know to

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Speaker 1: compare it, and then it boxes it in too much.

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Speaker 1: But with the with with what we have. Right, when

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Speaker 1: you look at the Internet, we do have multiple protocols, right,

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Speaker 1: one is used for email, one is used for security,

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Speaker 1: one is used right for different things. And so maybe

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Speaker 1: you're talking like that where we have different protocols and

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Speaker 1: and they're used for different applications. Yeah, exactly. Specifization is

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Speaker 1: one of the aspects of coward thesis. So we believe

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Speaker 1: that it's not going to be just one protocol layer.

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Speaker 1: It's not going to be just one smart contract platform.

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Speaker 1: Let's put it this way. But there's not gonna be

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Speaker 1: hundreds of said, so they will they will find their

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Speaker 1: niches where they're what they're best at. For example, Tissos

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Speaker 1: is best ats on chain governance, and we're gonna see

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Speaker 1: governance is a separate topic because I'm still like, I

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Speaker 1: cannot shape our opinion if governance is fundamentally valuable. But

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Speaker 1: at least we're going to see this experiment with Tessos.

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Speaker 1: Uh than if the developers and the community finds it

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Speaker 1: fundamentally valuable, then tsos got gets a niche because it's

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Speaker 1: so far as the only platform. And we've seen this

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Speaker 1: with their recent Athens that yeah, Athens uprate that it

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Speaker 1: works so far it works, so they are finding their

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Speaker 1: valuable niche in this. Then if we look at um

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Speaker 1: platforms like like Tessa's part of our portfolio, but I

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Speaker 1: also I try to speak about different platforms sometimes even

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Speaker 1: if they're not part of our portfolio, so it doesn't

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Speaker 1: sound like I'm only talking our books. So if we

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Speaker 1: are like if we look at Cardono, their value proposition

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Speaker 1: is deep academic your review and their fundamental value proposition

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Speaker 1: as as I understand it again, is that the other

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Speaker 1: chains are too experimental and not validated academically as strongly

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Speaker 1: as Cardano is. So in the long term, they're all

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Speaker 1: going to fail because of the technological reasons, and Cardan

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Speaker 1: it's gonna stand, and it's gonna if there are any

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Speaker 1: other like useful features, not the networks, they're gonna pbsorb.

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Speaker 1: But again we're gonna see if the market is gonna

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Speaker 1: take it and if they're gonna be interesting for the market.

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Speaker 1: If we look at eos Um, eos is like, I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I don't even understand why people compared so

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Speaker 1: much to Etherium because I think they're totally different platforms.

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Speaker 1: Us is not competing for being a general trust layer

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Speaker 1: for the web three as Ethereum is just because of

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Speaker 1: its obvious centralization properties. But at the same time, first

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Speaker 1: of all, it's backed by block one, which has huge

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Speaker 1: exposure to media industry and gaming, and they are supporting

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Speaker 1: a lot of projects that are building on it, something

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Speaker 1: that Ethereum doesn't have. And then it has it's looking

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Speaker 1: into gaming industry, and this is not something I'm very

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Speaker 1: familiar with, so I cannot again judge how promising this is.

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Speaker 1: But again, looking at what they're doing, they're finding their

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Speaker 1: niche and it might well be that they're gonna find it,

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Speaker 1: especially with the billion dollars that they have in the

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Speaker 1: world chest to support all the projects that are building

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Speaker 1: at it. So this is how we look at the

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Speaker 1: market and um. So generally our portfolio is split between

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Speaker 1: like certain store of value coins like bitcoin and its rim.

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Speaker 1: We kind of put in this category because we believe

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Speaker 1: it from all the other tokens that's the most proven.

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Speaker 1: Then the tokens that go into the new trend which

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Speaker 1: is taking which we believe also going to be of

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Speaker 1: the market excluding Bitcoin, will be in proof of steak networks,

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Speaker 1: and so in this bucket with wait so you you

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Speaker 1: say bitcoin will move into a proof of steak Oh no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I mean except from bitcoin if we take bitcoin, because

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Speaker 1: I don't compare any of these assets with Bitcoin, because

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Speaker 1: I believe they're fundamentally different. So whatever I say seven

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Speaker 1: of the market, I'm talking about the market except bit

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Speaker 1: got it? Got it? Okay? So yeah, so I believe

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Speaker 1: this fift of the market will be in proof of

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Speaker 1: stake networks. And this is also like one of the

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Speaker 1: largest buckets in our portfolio, which is whereas like Cosmos,

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Speaker 1: Polkad Tisso's our grand new cipher as well. And then

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Speaker 1: also one like the last bucket is experimental platforms. This

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Speaker 1: is like Salona and difinity. It's very hard to shape

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Speaker 1: the theefs and where these platforms are going to be

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Speaker 1: best at because they're so new and they're so different

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Speaker 1: and their positions themselves so differently from the other than

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Speaker 1: we just put it like, we think it's very interesting

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Speaker 1: technology and we believe it's experimental. So this is kind

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Speaker 1: of the third bucket where we don't know how it's

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Speaker 1: going to turn out about it's different, interesting to look

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Speaker 1: at it. Yeah. Now, a lot of funds um you know,

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Speaker 1: especially the ones that are more connected VC funds, and

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Speaker 1: we see in Silicon Valley and whatnot are really trying

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Speaker 1: to get more into like equity. It seems like these days, Um,

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Speaker 1: do you guys always try to see if you can

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Speaker 1: get in like seed round equity or do you guys

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Speaker 1: also play open market tokens? We do all of it.

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Speaker 1: So the way we structure, yeah, the way we structure

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Speaker 1: our business. And again we're private investment firms, so there's

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Speaker 1: not a lot of information I can disclose, but I

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Speaker 1: could speak about the general structure. How how we do it?

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Speaker 1: So um yeah, sure, um so um. It's about half

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Speaker 1: of the portfolio is like a tradable portfolio, and this

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Speaker 1: is we always adjust our positions on the market based

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Speaker 1: on trends, so we're not actively trading. What do we

430
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,159
Speaker 1: do like when fundamental shift and we see the fundamental shift,

431
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 1: we we do portfolio rebalancing. And then the rest of

432
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:41,879
Speaker 1: it is split between the liquid tokens. This means the

433
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,000
Speaker 1: tokens that are invested or bonded which are not immediately tradeable,

434
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:51,520
Speaker 1: and and a venture investing, which is about twenty of

435
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 1: the portfolio depending on the time. And yeah, in venture investing,

436
00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,480
Speaker 1: we UM. We started with doing only tokens back in

437
00:22:58,480 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: two thousand and sixteen, and now we do both tokens

438
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,440
Speaker 1: and equity. But of course the idea is to sometimes

439
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:06,960
Speaker 1: we get in equity for the reasons that the project

440
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,160
Speaker 1: is in the very early stage and they're talking economy

441
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 1: is not fairly yet, and actually it's preferential then investing

442
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:16,440
Speaker 1: in the seed stage when the project has the white

443
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: paper outlining the exact mechanics of all it's talken, because

444
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 1: sometimes it's too unrealistic to predict how exactly it's going

445
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 1: to work, and it's better to get into in equity.

446
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 1: But it's important to have the exposure to the underlying

447
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:30,960
Speaker 1: asset because if UM and by that I mean having

448
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:34,199
Speaker 1: convertible equity or any other like talking options. There are

449
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 1: different types of arrangements you can have, but we usually

450
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,119
Speaker 1: don't do pure equity because most of the projects, I

451
00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:42,280
Speaker 1: guess all of the projects were investing. They have the

452
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: underlying assets, they have the underlying talking and we want

453
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: to have exposure to it. But we also want to

454
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:49,639
Speaker 1: have the product, want to give the project time to

455
00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 1: figure out the talking economy, and we actually don't only

456
00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: give them time. We work very closely. Well, our portfolio

457
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 1: companies on this to help them structure talking economy and

458
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 1: then gain exposure to the underlying said. So that's that's

459
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: pretty much how we co over. So since you believe

460
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: in your your view is kind of that multiple chains

461
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: will be you know, all kind of coexisting in the future. UM,

462
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: I take it. Maybe you believe that bitcoin is probably

463
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 1: has the best chance of survival and being there in

464
00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:20,200
Speaker 1: the future, but maybe some of these other chains maybe

465
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 1: present better investment opportunities, meaning over the next you know,

466
00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 1: five years, they'll probably increase faster than Bitcoin. Well, so

467
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 1: maybe bitcoin is a safer play, but the other ones

468
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 1: are more explosive. Uh, it could be. But still bitcoin

469
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: is our larger, largest bit on the portfolio. And um,

470
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: I think that bitcoin bitcoin has not reached its explosive

471
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 1: growth either. So it's just to me, it's like even

472
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:47,679
Speaker 1: if you look at your traditional portfolio, you keep some

473
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: of your funds and equities, someone bonds and someone gold.

474
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 1: It's just very different as and some you might be

475
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,600
Speaker 1: investing in some hedge funds or vcs. If you are

476
00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: in the credit that investor and you have exposure to it,

477
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: I view it the same. Wait, so I think, yes, yeah,

478
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: let's talk about that harbor. Yeah, it's a safe harbor,

479
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 1: but it hasn't reached it school potential yet. Sure, yeah,

480
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: and I agree. I mean I I see it much

481
00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 1: much higher than it is today. I'm just thinking some

482
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 1: of these, you know, other projects might go up faster,

483
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 1: right because they still have they're still we don't know

484
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: where that's going to go. But curious kind of what

485
00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: you just said. UM So, I believe in acid allocation

486
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: I talked about all the time, right, Like, nobody should

487
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: be getting wrecked in this market. You shouldn't put all

488
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 1: your money into it. Um So, you should only be

489
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 1: putting a you know, a portion of your assets into

490
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:38,080
Speaker 1: this and whatever that percentage is for you. But within

491
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: that allocation that someone puts into crypto, UM, do you

492
00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: really think there's a way to diversify that or is

493
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:47,639
Speaker 1: it really just all lumped in crypto um or how

494
00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: do you guys look at that? Well, crypto market is

495
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 1: still very correlated, even though we've seen them this this

496
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:59,400
Speaker 1: year that bitcoin got separated more from the other assets

497
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 1: as we've seen in the recent kind of bull market. UM,

498
00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,040
Speaker 1: we've seen that bitcoin has really separated itself from all

499
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:08,520
Speaker 1: the rest of the market. But I still think it's

500
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,680
Speaker 1: very correlated. And why because the main use case is

501
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 1: still speculation until we get to use it. Until we

502
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: get these tokens uh used as they were intended to

503
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 1: instead of being speculated on, then we're going to see

504
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: the uncorrelated market. Then we're going to see that you

505
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,639
Speaker 1: can really diversify for now. Yeah, I think diversification is

506
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 1: a big word for crypto because it's still it's still

507
00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: mainly about speculation, and I think it's not there's nothing

508
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 1: wrong with it. This is how markets evolve. They start

509
00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 1: with speculation, they start with trading. But until we see

510
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: most of these tokens being used and being traded and

511
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 1: purchased for their intended value, we're going to see them

512
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: being highly correlated. And that's why I think that's a

513
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: poor diversification strategy. If you're diversifying in different market platform tokens,

514
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: that's put it this way. Yeah, so I agree with you.

515
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,960
Speaker 1: Right where we're at right now, we're in a spect

516
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 1: reulation phase and it just is what it is. Um

517
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: So I guess what you're saying is then you know,

518
00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: only take a percentage and allocate towards crypto, but then

519
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:09,200
Speaker 1: it's not really diversified. It's just it's just kind of

520
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: in crypto. Maybe you know, maybe some is more into

521
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: like bitcoin etherium, which is a little bit safer, and

522
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,239
Speaker 1: then some is into more like moonshots or whatever. But

523
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: for the most part, it's still pretty correlated. So it's

524
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:23,080
Speaker 1: all kind of not very diversified. Yeah, it depends. It

525
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: depends on whom you're talking to. If you're a professional

526
00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:28,040
Speaker 1: crypto investor, of course you look at it differently. And

527
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: that's like if we're talking about professional crypto investors like

528
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: like Austin, like yourself too, then it's very different because

529
00:27:34,840 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: you're diving into the details. But most most investors, as

530
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: you see them, and like as I talked to that

531
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: like more in the traditional investing business, they see cryptos

532
00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: one a st class, and that's how I usually tell

533
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 1: them to look at it. Like I usually don't have

534
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 1: an advice to get anything beyond bitcoin and etherium, because

535
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: otherwise you have to form an investment these that's around it,

536
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 1: and you have to like you cannot just buy tokens

537
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,080
Speaker 1: just to diversify. You have to perform an invest some

538
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,439
Speaker 1: pieces are you investing in smart contract platforms. Are you

539
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: investing in identity LA you're are you investing in defy?

540
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 1: Are you investing in decentralized computing? They are already different

541
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: these that's forming around this asset class. And yes, of

542
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 1: course in this sense there is a lot of diversification opportunities.

543
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: But again, if you're a professional crypto investor, not if

544
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 1: you're an outside investor looking to diversify your portfolio, then

545
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,040
Speaker 1: I guess that's point and ether are the best bets.

546
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,639
Speaker 1: I think even the way we talk about it shows

547
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 1: how early we are. Right For example, right we're calling

548
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: it an asset class and talking about investing in the crypto.

549
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: You wouldn't say, like, I invest in the Internet right now.

550
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 1: In you would in ninety nine you would say that

551
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: I'm investing on the Internet. Um, I was young, and

552
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:47,479
Speaker 1: my roommate and I we thought we were day traders

553
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, and we're playing these Internet stocks,

554
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: and so we did. But today you would never go, oh,

555
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 1: I invest in the Internet. Just that that doesn't work.

556
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: And so I think that just shows how early we are.

557
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 1: We Yeah, we we look at cryptos and asset class,

558
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: but really it shouldn't and that just shows how early

559
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 1: we are. UM. Yeah, so it's interesting. UM, but I

560
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: agree with you, right, it can be dangerous and so

561
00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: just practice asset allocation if anything else. What do you

562
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,160
Speaker 1: think about I think we both agree on like how

563
00:29:16,160 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: early we are we talked about, Um, really it's speculation

564
00:29:19,760 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: right now. UM. I see people talking about bitcoin, even

565
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: bitcoin being you know, one of the longest running chains,

566
00:29:25,960 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: and trying to still call it a money, a medium

567
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: of exchange, or even a store of value, which I

568
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: think is all too early. UM. What do you think

569
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: about some of the maybe use cases that we're starting

570
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: to see. Do you think we're gaining any traction or

571
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 1: do you think we're just still maybe a year or

572
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: two away from seeing anything really start to take hold. Um.

573
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: I think the main mistake, but maybe misunderstanding of the

574
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: market that most investments have me included, UM, is that

575
00:29:57,640 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 1: I think we get the general trends right, we get

576
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: the timing wrong, and like looking at the market at

577
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: the thousand sixteen, I remember what we're talking about, Oh,

578
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 1: this is this is going to happen in two or

579
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 1: three years. Well, two or three years have passed and

580
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: very little has happened. So I think like, as you said,

581
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: when you were looking at the Internet, you should look

582
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: in ten fifteen years ri since if you're looking into

583
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,719
Speaker 1: like real shifts in the use cases. So yeah, like

584
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: I don't like now, I don't even say, oh, in

585
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: two or three years, X, Y and Z just gonna happen,

586
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: because it's probably not. And it's to some extent it's

587
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: disappointing that it's moving so slowly, but I understand that

588
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: that that's how it's probably gonna work, and that's how

589
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 1: it works for most technologies. So I think also, it's

590
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: like we're like watching paint dry, Like we're sitting there

591
00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 1: watching it every day. But if you really step back

592
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 1: and look what's happened in the last two years, for example,

593
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of moving pretty fast. It is if

594
00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: you're inside this industry. It is if you're if you're

595
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: an insider, you're like, oh my god, there are hundreds

596
00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,120
Speaker 1: things of happening. Look defiled, look make dolls, CDPs. But

597
00:31:01,280 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: we can do so many things. But if you talk

598
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 1: to an outsider and say, and the person will tell, well,

599
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 1: how can I use it, You're like, um, well, look,

600
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,320
Speaker 1: this is making down. This is like you cannot open

601
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: the CDP. It's still it's super exciting if you're inside

602
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,520
Speaker 1: this industry and you're playing with this, and I agree

603
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: with this, like all the defied movement excites me. If

604
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,200
Speaker 1: you're asking about the trends, I think this is one

605
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 1: of the most interesting trends. Then. Um, of course, the

606
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: staking and the governance and how all this proof of

607
00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 1: state network is gonna launch and play out. This is

608
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: super interesting to watch. We just had Cosmos launched, we

609
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,320
Speaker 1: had Tasos launched last year, and we're gonna have Palka

610
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:40,080
Speaker 1: Dot launched this year. So I'm very excited to see

611
00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 1: how this is gonna play out. Again, all the games,

612
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,360
Speaker 1: theory and all of this is going to evolve in

613
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: years time when the network is going to grow in value,

614
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: when there's the security budget, let's say, the network is

615
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: going to be much higher, and it's going to be

616
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 1: much more interesting to watch this all unfold. What else

617
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: I'm very excited that about is Interiorum two point zero,

618
00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 1: of course, because they have such an um crazy ambitious roadmap,

619
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,360
Speaker 1: and again where now only talking about the roadmap in

620
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: and you know how software development goes, it's never going

621
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: to be completed in two any twenty one. So it's

622
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 1: like it's going to be completed later, and then after

623
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 1: it's going to be completed, it's going to be a

624
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:19,920
Speaker 1: period of adaptation of people moving to the new change.

625
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: So if we're gonna see all this new trends taken

626
00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: on but slowly, and in terms of bitcoin, I think

627
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: a lot of maybe it's a little bit controversial, but

628
00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 1: I think a lot of them. Um, A lot of

629
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 1: the projects around bitcoin spending, bitcoin paying and whole foods,

630
00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 1: I think there are a little bit of distraction. They're

631
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: good marketing effort. It's nice. It's nice to see it

632
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: in the news. Oh now you can pay for your

633
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,280
Speaker 1: groceries with bitcoin, But honestly, I don't want to pay

634
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: with my groceries with with bitcoin. And yeah, I think

635
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 1: this is not a primarily used case. Um so yeah,

636
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: like if talking about the advantage of bitcoin, I'm more

637
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: interested about privacy about it's the like the improvements in

638
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: bitcoin that the core development wasn't working on. But this

639
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:08,600
Speaker 1: like little marketing thing. So I think I good for

640
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: the general public to see the US like, oh, this

641
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,479
Speaker 1: big chain accepts bitcoin, but I think it's more like

642
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: noise over signal. I I would agree with you. I

643
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: think there's definitely pros and cons to that. Um. I

644
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: think it's nice because I guess it does increase awareness,

645
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: but it pushes the wrong narrative. And really, I think

646
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 1: we have to understand that there's this evolution, right, and

647
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:32,239
Speaker 1: and we're kind of going from like a collectible and

648
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: we'll eventually get to this store of value stage. Bitcoin

649
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 1: is not even a good store of value. It's too

650
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,080
Speaker 1: volatible right now, but it's getting there, and it will

651
00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: get there, and then after we get to the store value,

652
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 1: then eventually we'll get to that medium of exchange. Right. Um.

653
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 1: But uh, but to try and push it as that today,

654
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 1: I mean I look back because I started in two

655
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: thousand and fifteen and and I was I bought a

656
00:33:51,360 --> 00:33:54,200
Speaker 1: lot of bitcoin. They're cheap back then, and through like

657
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 1: the tweventeen run, I started just spending bitcoins like they

658
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 1: were just chicklets, like oh yeah, bitcoin, bitcoin, bit pin,

659
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you know, it hit

660
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: wherever it's tied. I'm like, what did I do with

661
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 1: all these big Why did I spend them? You know, Uh,

662
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,680
Speaker 1: you don't want to be the big point pizza guy, right, No, yeah,

663
00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: you don't want to be the bitcoin pizza guy and

664
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: you spend it. You spend an inflationary currency, you don't

665
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: spend a deflationary currency, right right, Yeah, you know it's

666
00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,799
Speaker 1: good for adoption, it's good or good for awareness, but

667
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 1: definitely too really for a for adoption for sure. So

668
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:29,880
Speaker 1: but the DeFi space is one that I like, I like,

669
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 1: I like that, As you said, I think that's kind

670
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: of exciting. Are you guys looking at that at all?

671
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 1: Or just really more in the protocols, because there are

672
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: some defied protocols that we're starting to see, Oh yes,

673
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 1: for sure, and most of them are built on ethereum.

674
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: So again back to our thesis, we believe that if

675
00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,600
Speaker 1: this protocols became valuable, etherium becomes valuable and our underlying

676
00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 1: investments become valuable. So there's some layer two or reason

677
00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: I heard the term security layer and execution layer and

678
00:34:59,880 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 1: like it even more than layer were one on layer

679
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 1: two because it's different. But so some of these protocols

680
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: on layer two will be able to capture value separately

681
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 1: from ethereum, and we do invest in some of them,

682
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: like for example, life beer is one of those um

683
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,359
Speaker 1: or the reacts. Uh, it's they're they're improving ethereum, they're

684
00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 1: improving the ecosystem, but they're also separate layer two networks

685
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: that can also gain value and prove value because they're

686
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: holding some valuable states in it. So I think it's

687
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 1: important to see defy. It's a very interesting trend, but

688
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: I think each it's important to look at each platform

689
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,360
Speaker 1: and see if the underlying asset is going to improve

690
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 1: value because the platform itself and the software itself may

691
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 1: be extremely interesting, but the valuable still still complete ethereum.

692
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, so I think we look at it separately.

693
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,279
Speaker 1: We think all of these protocols like DOHRMA, like d I,

694
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 1: d X, Maker die. Of course we use it extensively.

695
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:58,919
Speaker 1: We use make a dial and that's what I'm excited about.

696
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:02,760
Speaker 1: It's one of the few blockchain tools that you actually

697
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: use for its intended purpose, not like not the speculation,

698
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: and very excited about this use cases. So we've been

699
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,520
Speaker 1: using Maker Doubt for a while. We've been using their

700
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 1: CDPs and looking for the multichollateral dye to come on

701
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: to come on boards so we can use like for example,

702
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: digits tokens like goldback tokens to CDPs. So this is

703
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 1: very interesting. But again we'll look at it separately as

704
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: a use case or as an investment. As a use case,

705
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 1: they're all extremely exciting. As an investment, you have to

706
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: see like we're we don't own, for example, maker tokens,

707
00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 1: but we do use maker dow extensively. So that's the difference. Okay. Um.

708
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 1: One last topical that dip into just a little bit

709
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: is UH is risk and and and risk management. Um.

710
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: I think obviously every single project is going to have

711
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: its own set of risks, right, um. Whatever that may

712
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: be risk from the team, risk from other competing. But

713
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: then I think we have maybe we have a risk

714
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: over kind of the asset class from like regulations and

715
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,120
Speaker 1: stuff like that, Like where do you see risk and

716
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,959
Speaker 1: how do you guys, um kind of plan that out

717
00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 1: in your investing thesis. Oh, I don't like this topic.

718
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: I'm kidding because there's just so many risks in crypto now.

719
00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 1: It's just like full of risks. But to be serious, um,

720
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: the different buckets of risks. One is the inherent risks

721
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: of the token economy being not thought through. And this

722
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: is the very obvious one, and this is what we

723
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: look at the first place. It's like the on the

724
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: micro level. UM. If you look at the project, the

725
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: risk is that the token is not going to prove value.

726
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 1: And we can draw models as long as we can,

727
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:41,520
Speaker 1: but until you invest, if you invest in the token

728
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 1: that's not treated yet and not used for its intended purpose,

729
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: you have no idea if the token economy that's been

730
00:37:47,960 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: drawn on the white board is actually going to work

731
00:37:49,640 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 1: in practice. That's why we do invest a lot in

732
00:37:52,560 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 1: the tokens that traded on the market. And we talk

733
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 1: to projects sometimes and we love the project and we

734
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 1: love the token, and we say, guy, we're gonna invest

735
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: in it at the higher price, but we want to

736
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: do risk. We want to do risk your token economy.

737
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: We want to do risk, your um, your mechanics, who

738
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: want to see how it works, And that's what we do.

739
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: We do a lot of market investing were by tokens

740
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:15,840
Speaker 1: on the open market too, So we don't only do

741
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: venture deals for the specific reason, because sometimes we believe

742
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 1: if it's all very theoretical and bettery, new is just

743
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: too risky. UM. So this is one of the office risks.

744
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,600
Speaker 1: But of course the regulatory risk that you're talking about

745
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 1: is another big one because we're based in the US

746
00:38:32,960 --> 00:38:34,360
Speaker 1: and you're based in the US two and you know

747
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 1: how unpredictable it can be. But also at the same time,

748
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:43,240
Speaker 1: it's unpredicable, but it's predictable. If you are issuing a token.

749
00:38:44,200 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 1: Most of the projects have to think that they have

750
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: highly like likelihood of being deemed the security at some

751
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,399
Speaker 1: point in time, and they should start I guess they're

752
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,480
Speaker 1: thinking from this point of view because we heard so

753
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:58,200
Speaker 1: many projects that they're saying, oh, we're utility token that

754
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: this is why kind of like, well, you haven't got

755
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: any approval from the legislature for being a YouTube. It's

756
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 1: a token. It's what we have invented, like the industry

757
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 1: have invented instead of itself. And some lawyers had said

758
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: that yeah, that works, I mean yes and no. Right, So,

759
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: like you take like a storage application, like a file

760
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 1: coin or storage coin or whatever. Right, so I could

761
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: have like decentralized storage I could store instead of using Dropbox,

762
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:27,920
Speaker 1: I could store my files decentralized. In order to use that,

763
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 1: I have to use their credits or their tokens um.

764
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: But like if I use in the traditional sense, I

765
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:37,560
Speaker 1: use let's say I use a shutter stock for stock

766
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: photography or video block for stock videography, And to use

767
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: those platforms, I have to buy credits and then I

768
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: redeem their credits for those photos. I redeem those credits

769
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,080
Speaker 1: for That's how it works. And those credits I buy

770
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:52,919
Speaker 1: are not securities, and those credits are not attacked. So

771
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: if I buy a token to use on video or

772
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,040
Speaker 1: file coin, they're treating that as a as a security,

773
00:39:59,080 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: of treating that as a as a as an ASCID,

774
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,240
Speaker 1: as a taxable event. So we we have like real

775
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 1: world This is where I lose it. It's like we

776
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:10,360
Speaker 1: have this real world example. I get reward points at target.

777
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: Those aren't taxable, right, but all of a sudden, because

778
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: it's now a token, it is. So what do you

779
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: think about that? Well, I totally agree with you. But

780
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,360
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is that's what we think the legislators

781
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 1: are gonna say, and that's where the risks are. So

782
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,280
Speaker 1: it totally makes sense. But then because it hasn't proven itself.

783
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: And now actually with the skin Kick case, you've seen

784
00:40:34,000 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: it yesterday, the SEC decided to see you. I mean

785
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: it's it's kind of was expected that they will see

786
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:42,359
Speaker 1: them but at least it's gonna show some clarity because

787
00:40:42,400 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: for now it's more what the industry inside of itself thinks,

788
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 1: what's going to happen and what makes sense, and that's

789
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: what we hope is going to happen, because yeah, most

790
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: of these tokens are intended for its intended purpose. But

791
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: you can see the the kin token, for example, it

792
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 1: also has an intended purpose. But I have no idea

793
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 1: how it's going to turn out because there have been

794
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 1: a lot of gray areas how it's been sold, how

795
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: it's been marketed, what the team members have advertised, what

796
00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:13,319
Speaker 1: they've said. So until we have one, two, three, ten

797
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 1: cases like this which are public and open and give

798
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:18,759
Speaker 1: a public precedent, I think there's still high risk. Even

799
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,520
Speaker 1: that the recent fence and guidance that was issued a

800
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,359
Speaker 1: couple of weeks ago, it had a lot of new

801
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,920
Speaker 1: points that were not mentioned before because before I remember,

802
00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: there was only the main concept was that if your

803
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: network is fully functional at the moment of sale of talking,

804
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be considered a security. That was kind of

805
00:41:35,800 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: the general understanding, but now they have added many more

806
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: points to it. They were like, it's it's not supposed

807
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,640
Speaker 1: to be traded for example, remember they were they were saying,

808
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: like nobo, what what the exact term was, But it

809
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,240
Speaker 1: was not supposed to be openly traded on the market,

810
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,400
Speaker 1: only through like your designated app or something. But that

811
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,959
Speaker 1: so that's where the regulators are gonna that's the threat

812
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:04,800
Speaker 1: at I see, because um, I see this token economy

813
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,440
Speaker 1: where it unlocks value. So right now I have value

814
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 1: stuck in my airline rewards points, and I have value

815
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 1: stuck in my whatever target reward points, and I have

816
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,400
Speaker 1: value stuck in all these silos and it's stuck. But

817
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 1: if we can tokenize that, then all that value can

818
00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: freely exchange. But what what that Fincent as you're pointing

819
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:30,160
Speaker 1: out specifically says is you cannot you can't exchange that.

820
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 1: And it's like, well, and so all this we're talking

821
00:42:33,000 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 1: about like n f T s and video games. So

822
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: now I could earn this skin from my video game

823
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:39,239
Speaker 1: and I should be able to freely exchange that. But

824
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,439
Speaker 1: what that regulation says is no value has to stay

825
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: in a silo. And so that's very scary. So we'll

826
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,319
Speaker 1: see how that how that we're just in the beginning, Yeah,

827
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: because it's to the guidance, then this is not a

828
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:52,960
Speaker 1: court key. And this is also important, and that's I

829
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,280
Speaker 1: think what they said themselves, like, this is a guidance,

830
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: it's a framework, but until it's been tested and coured,

831
00:42:57,960 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 1: we cannot say that this is a rule said and

832
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 1: still so yeah, we have. At a recent conference I

833
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: was at, there was someone from the SEC talking and

834
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,319
Speaker 1: they said, look, you guys are all waiting for us

835
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 1: to come out and tell you what you can do.

836
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:13,080
Speaker 1: That's never gonna happen. We don't tell you what you

837
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,680
Speaker 1: can do. You're allowed to do whatever you do. We'll

838
00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:19,239
Speaker 1: only tell you when you can't. And so, as you said, right,

839
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 1: we'll have to see it playing out over court cases,

840
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 1: and it's just going to be a slow, slow role

841
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: Out's going to be interesting to watch exactly. But we

842
00:43:28,160 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 1: should also shouldn't forget about the rest of the world.

843
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's very said when the projects have

844
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 1: to exclude the US because of this regulation, but there's

845
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 1: still a big white world there and some countries I

846
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: believe will be pioneering very open legislation. It's going to

847
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: be very interesting to watch. And I'm not only talked

848
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: about like Malta but also I think maybe we're going

849
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:53,280
Speaker 1: to see more innovation coming from Singapore Hong Kong because

850
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,879
Speaker 1: their legislators are going to move faster than the US legislators.

851
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,400
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's it's also interesting to watch what's going

852
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:01,839
Speaker 1: to happen on this side of the world. Yeah, as Ah,

853
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 1: you're you're more of an international citizen, having lived in

854
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 1: three countries. Um, I think a lot of Americans, uh don't.

855
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:10,120
Speaker 1: Seems like a lot of Americans don't really travel that

856
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 1: much and they just kind of stay focused and so um,

857
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 1: it's definitely gonna be a lot scarier for them. I'm

858
00:44:15,520 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: not thinking globally, But great stuff, gotcha. I I really

859
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: appreciate this. It's been been a fascinating conversation. Um, there's

860
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,280
Speaker 1: so many areas that I'd love to dive in deeper

861
00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:25,879
Speaker 1: with you. So hopefully we'll get together and be able

862
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:27,759
Speaker 1: to talk about that. But I don't want to. I

863
00:44:27,760 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 1: don't want to keep keep you too long. We've already

864
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: gone over past what I told you. So anyway, it

865
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: was it was great. Uh nice talking to you. Yeah,

866
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: it was super nice and thanks for having it was

867
00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 1: a great discussion. Yeah, I'm happy to talk again. Yeah,

868
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,239
Speaker 1: we'll have you back on soon. All right, thank you,

869
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: all right, thank you. All right. Hey, if you like

870
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: this episode of the Market Disruptors Podcast, please help us

871
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: take this to the top of the podcast charts. Just

872
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: please do me a favor and rate, review and subscribe.

873
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,560
Speaker 1: Taking fifteen seconds to leave a quick review goes a

874
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,280
Speaker 1: long way in helping us reach more people and disrupt

875
00:45:04,280 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: more markets. I really appreciate you listening, and I'll see

876
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:09,360
Speaker 1: you next time on the Market Instructors podcast.