Speaker 1: As media.
Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's just me
Speaker 2: James today and I'm joined by Jamie, who is a librarian,
Speaker 2: and we are here to discuss the pending federal cuts
Speaker 2: on library funding and I guess years of attacks on
Speaker 2: library funding. So welcome to the show. Jamie. Thanks for
Speaker 2: joining us.
Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is really great for me because I have
Speaker 2: been trying to find a librarian for a very long
Speaker 2: time to talk to us on the podcast. I understand
Speaker 2: that lots of people have been like really concerned that
Speaker 2: we cover this, but also very afraid for their jobs,
Speaker 2: which is a rough position to be in. So thank
Speaker 2: you for coming on. I thought we'd start with like,
Speaker 2: there was an executive order on the fourteenth of March.
Speaker 2: I think it was called something like further something the
Speaker 2: federal bureaucracy cutting, slashing, diminishing whatever, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: really care. One of the outcomes of this was I
Speaker 2: believe the Trump administry you're moving towards a complete closure
Speaker 2: of IMLS. Is that right?
Speaker 3: So it depends upon how much joj and Trump and
Speaker 3: company are going to listen to Congress, because Congress has
Speaker 3: already funded IMLS. Just the Institute of Museum and Library
Speaker 3: Services for this year, so that money already exists, it's
Speaker 3: already been allocated, and so in theory they should be
Speaker 3: good for at least a year, and then next year
Speaker 3: when the budget comes up again, it should be up
Speaker 3: to Congress, because Congress created this institution and Congress funds it.
Speaker 3: But the executive Order and the commentary on it does
Speaker 3: say that they would like to dissolve it kind of
Speaker 3: as soon as possible, definitely next year. So it's really
Speaker 3: up in the air about how fast things would move,
Speaker 3: what exactly would happen, if it would be this year,
Speaker 3: if it be next year, Whether anyone's going to listen
Speaker 3: to Congress.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we will find out, I guess. So can you
Speaker 2: explain for listeners who aren't familiar what i AM is
Speaker 2: and what it does.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's as I said, the Institute of Museum
Speaker 3: and Library Services, And so basically they are allocated money
Speaker 3: by Congress every year, and then they hand it out
Speaker 3: to states, especially them, who kind of break it down
Speaker 3: into other grants. They give grants to states and libraries
Speaker 3: and institutions for things that museums and libraries do. So
Speaker 3: that includes things like on the museum side, maybe you know,
Speaker 3: putting together programming or doing big digitization projects. I used
Speaker 3: to work at an institution where we had a grant
Speaker 3: that did a lot of digitization of historic documents. And
Speaker 3: on the library side, they do all sorts of stuff,
Speaker 3: especially for public libraries. They end up funding things like
Speaker 3: summer reading programs, equipment, especially for internet access, you know,
Speaker 3: all this stuff related to job training and those services
Speaker 3: that libraries offer. And interlibrary loan is a big one
Speaker 3: so that people can access materials of their life. Library
Speaker 3: doesn't hold but it's held by other libraries. Yeah, and
Speaker 3: rural libraries and tribal libraries especially really really benefit from this.
Speaker 3: Every single state and territory in the country gets these funds.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I was I was wondering why who fund
Speaker 2: it into library loans so that they're the ones who
Speaker 2: facilitate like the transporting of the books.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, depending on how your library, some
Speaker 3: libraries will fund it from their operations budget. But if okay,
Speaker 3: you know, especially for small rural public libraries where that
Speaker 3: might be very expensive. That is one thing that these
Speaker 3: grants go to is interralibrary loan.
Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, there are lots of very important services, And
Speaker 2: what would it mean if we didn't have that IMLS
Speaker 2: budget at all, Like, what would it mean especially if like,
Speaker 2: like you said, those kind of libraries that are financially
Speaker 2: I guess more marginalized in tribal libraries and rural areas
Speaker 2: and stuff.
Speaker 3: So I first want to mention that the entire budget
Speaker 3: of IMLS for twenty twenty four was something like two
Speaker 3: hundred and sixty six million dollars. We're not talking about
Speaker 3: huge sums of money in terms of the federal government.
Speaker 3: It comes out to about seventy five percent per person
Speaker 3: in the country, So we're not going to be saving
Speaker 3: on our taxes if this goes away. But that money
Speaker 3: makes a really big difference. So even smaller states that
Speaker 3: you know, maybe have a million people in it might
Speaker 3: see a couple million dollars of these grants per year.
Speaker 3: And so what that would mean is that the things
Speaker 3: that maybe not all of them, but most of the
Speaker 3: thing that these grants cover would not be there. So
Speaker 3: that means that there wouldn't be summer reading in some places.
Speaker 3: That means that they wouldn't be able to buy the
Speaker 3: hot spots that they lend out to people who don't
Speaker 3: have internet at home. That means that maybe there wouldn't
Speaker 3: be the class that teaches your grandma how to not
Speaker 3: get caught in a fishing scam. So all sorts of things,
Speaker 3: those things just wouldn't be there because there's probably not,
Speaker 3: especially in red states, other funds that are going to
Speaker 3: come to cover that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I think I was looking online and that
Speaker 2: by Judy it's something like zero points zero zero three
Speaker 2: percent of the federal budget is going to It's trivial.
Speaker 3: It's so small, right, Yeah, you could like take the
Speaker 3: I don't know, the gold toilets away from the navy
Speaker 3: and cover it in right, Like it's so small, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: and yet it has this enormous outsized impact. You know,
Speaker 3: the statistics say that every dollar spent on IMLS returns
Speaker 3: two dollars to the economy. So it's actually, if you're
Speaker 3: going to measure it that way, highly beneficial, especially to
Speaker 3: these more marginalized areas.
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we should talk about that because I think
Speaker 2: if people like maybe they just don't happen to go
Speaker 2: to the library, maybe they don't you know, realize they
Speaker 2: have services they need, or maybe they don't live in
Speaker 2: the US the library is not just a place where
Speaker 2: you can go and borrow the books, right, Like, can
Speaker 2: you explain some of the services that libraries provide, like
Speaker 2: you mentioned some, but they really help people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, in for better or for worse, public libraries
Speaker 3: in the United States have become the social safety net
Speaker 3: of last resort because they already exist almost everywhere and
Speaker 3: it's so hard to get you know, even not right now,
Speaker 3: but even in the past couple decades, other social programs
Speaker 3: started in many parts of the US that things kind
Speaker 3: of just get lumped into the libraries. So now you
Speaker 3: get your tax forms there, maybe they have a social
Speaker 3: worker on staff. It's the place that homeless folks can
Speaker 3: sit when it's snowing.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that kind of is like a little bit.
Speaker 3: Of side from what we're talking about right here. But
Speaker 3: I really do want to point out that public libraries
Speaker 3: have become the social safety net in many many places.
Speaker 3: So that aside you know, offerings of aside from books
Speaker 3: and other media including ebooks, audiobooks, movies, and lots of formats, magazines, newspapers,
Speaker 3: there are tons of classes about all sorts of things,
Speaker 3: especially technology classes. It's a place that a lot of
Speaker 3: people it's their only reliable Internet access. So you know,
Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five, you can't do mostly anything without
Speaker 3: the internet. You can't get a job without the internet,
Speaker 3: you can't maybe pay your bills without the internet. So
Speaker 3: that's a reliable place that people who don't have internet
Speaker 3: for various reasons. Maybe they live so far out in
Speaker 3: the country that just doesn't go there unless you have
Speaker 3: satellite right even now, or maybe you can't afford it
Speaker 3: or whatever, or there's one computer in your house and
Speaker 3: there's six kids, and someone has to do their homework,
Speaker 3: so what everyone else going to do, So then the
Speaker 3: computers themselves. And then also the other thing that I
Speaker 3: am less also does is those grants will sometimes purchase
Speaker 3: research databases, so if people kids especially are trying to
Speaker 3: do their homework. Again, like children's and teens programming is
Speaker 3: another thing between homework help social things clubs. So in
Speaker 3: a lot of places where there's not much going on,
Speaker 3: it's one of the places where young people can go
Speaker 3: in the afternoon or on the weekend and not be
Speaker 3: getting in trouble either because they're making trouble or the
Speaker 3: adults think they are, because there's somewhere productive to be
Speaker 3: there's somewhere that's inside, supervised or something to do. And
Speaker 3: so that's the kind of stuff we talk about in
Speaker 3: normal times when we're trying to fight for like weekend
Speaker 3: service or later hours. But if we're looking at it
Speaker 3: in the lens of IMLS, the building might be open,
Speaker 3: maybe because maybe they have the foundational operationals butt it.
Speaker 3: But then there won't be these programs, there won't be
Speaker 3: these resources. They will just be a bunch of books
Speaker 3: on the shelves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like, I don't know. I'm amazed how many
Speaker 2: of my friends and neighbors don't understand how much celebrity does.
Speaker 2: Like I'm forever like San Diego are housing prices are
Speaker 2: ridiculous and no one seems to want them to not
Speaker 2: be ridiculous. Lots of us do, but we don't get
Speaker 2: to choose, and so like we have a larger house population,
Speaker 2: and I'm always like helping my own house neighbors go
Speaker 2: to the library and give them a ride or whatever
Speaker 2: so they can yet, like you say, access internet services for.
Speaker 3: Benefits, yeah, or just like sit and read the paper
Speaker 3: and know what's.
Speaker 2: Going on in the world, yeah, and like not get
Speaker 2: harassed by the cops just for existing, right, which is
Speaker 2: the rest of their existence here? Certainly, Yeah, these are
Speaker 2: massively important. I think most people are like have no
Speaker 2: one because there's not really a big like fuck the
Speaker 2: library's movement, you know, like I think people I mean, yeah,
Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, I guess it's the whole Like people
Speaker 2: should only read stories if they can form and whatnot. Yeah,
Speaker 2: fuck those people. A yeah, talking of fuck those people,
Speaker 2: we unfortunately have to pivot to ads, so you know,
Speaker 2: here is some unfortunate advertisements. All right, we're back talking
Speaker 2: to people I dislike. Actually, San Diego mayor Todd Gloria,
Speaker 2: who was elected in twenty twenty and then re elected
Speaker 2: shamefully this year, which is very disappointing. One of his
Speaker 2: first actions was to propose a budget which increased the
Speaker 2: punding to the police, surprise, and decrease the funding to
Speaker 2: the libraries. It would lead to them closing for an
Speaker 2: extra day. Right, And this is our quote unquote progressive mayor,
Speaker 2: who you know has been anything but but this isn't
Speaker 2: a particularly uncommon scenario, right. I've spoken since then to
Speaker 2: librarians around the country who, for the last at least
Speaker 2: half decade have faced funding cuts. Can you explain, like
Speaker 2: why doesn't the state see value in these services? I mean,
Speaker 2: I wanted to speak for, you know, the Democrats defunding
Speaker 2: the libraries to give the cops more money. But can
Speaker 2: can you explain, like why there has been this ongoing
Speaker 2: assault on library budgets.
Speaker 3: So you know, you're talking about the last decade and
Speaker 3: a half decade. I think we can really trace it
Speaker 3: back much farther, at least thirty years to the Clinton administration. Actually, okay,
Speaker 3: I want to talk about the Democrats, but even you know,
Speaker 3: the roots farther back than that, because we have a
Speaker 3: neoliberal problem, right, So it's basically the idea that all
Speaker 3: activity should generate obvious, immediate monetary profit, that everything should
Speaker 3: be run by a business, that everything should be subject
Speaker 3: to the market.
Speaker 2: Quote unquote yeah.
Speaker 3: And so that's where we are with libraries, is that
Speaker 3: even though I can sit here and say every dollar
Speaker 3: that the IMLS spends generates two dollars with economic activity,
Speaker 3: that that somehow isn't even good enough because when the
Speaker 3: powers that be look at libraries, they just see money
Speaker 3: being flushed down the toilet, and that's the only way
Speaker 3: they can measure anything. So if you look at it
Speaker 3: and you're just saying, well, this is a place we
Speaker 3: spend money. This doesn't create money, This doesn't make more money.
Speaker 3: Happen the idea that everything should be run by a
Speaker 3: business and everything is it should be subject to market logics.
Speaker 3: That that would say, well, if we're going to subject
Speaker 3: everything to market logics, libraries have no value because we're
Speaker 3: only measuring it. And can this make the balance sheet?
Speaker 3: Can this make number go up?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: And even though libraries do make number go up, it's
Speaker 3: not obvious. You can't make it obvious. There's no direct
Speaker 3: line between what libraries do and number go up, even
Speaker 3: though there actually is, for example with imls. So, you know,
Speaker 3: starting during the Clinton administration, when the federal government changed
Speaker 3: and how the federal government work changed very much under
Speaker 3: the guise of increasing service quality, but what they actually
Speaker 3: did was lay off a quarter million workers and you know,
Speaker 3: turn everything into contract work instead of regular labor. And
Speaker 3: that I think filtered down from the federal level into
Speaker 3: states and municipalities, so that those levels of government too
Speaker 3: also started to look at how they ran their government things.
Speaker 3: And in many places, public libraries are arms of local
Speaker 3: government that those two should also be run like a
Speaker 3: business would be subject to market logics, and therefore number
Speaker 3: does not go up. We don't value this, and that's
Speaker 3: basically it is that you know. There, it's hard now
Speaker 3: that we've had thirty years of overt neoliberalism in our
Speaker 3: government system and a couple of decades more of less
Speaker 3: obvious versions of it to make government, which is now
Speaker 3: being run like a business, even in the best of times,
Speaker 3: value things that aren't that aren't valued strictly monetarily, so
Speaker 3: there's no cultural value. And even if the monetary value
Speaker 3: isn't extremely obvious, it somehow doesn't count.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess it kind of. I used to
Speaker 2: electorate lecture at university actually starting again next month, but
Speaker 2: like we pivoted towards like everything has to be stem
Speaker 2: in education Germany because.
Speaker 3: So that'll make money or something.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know why, because like Bill Gates make
Speaker 2: the line go up, and yeah, we lost so much
Speaker 2: that has not just intangible bound you you say, but
Speaker 2: actual tangible value, very very obvious value, but nonetheless, like
Speaker 2: like you say, it's not easy to purn a graph,
Speaker 2: so it disappears.
Speaker 3: Right, and then you know, even though cops also don't
Speaker 3: make money. Yeah, in a direct sense, somehow we can
Speaker 3: still fund that. So it really shows that, like in
Speaker 3: the case of where you are, but the carcal solution
Speaker 3: is now the only solution we have.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And when we sit here as abolitionists and we say well,
Speaker 3: let's get rid of all that stuff, and people say, well,
Speaker 3: what are you going to do instead, our answer is
Speaker 3: often it would be so different that it wouldn't be necessary,
Speaker 3: so we'd have prevention of the entire situation. That's one
Speaker 3: of the things that libraries offer is prevention of the
Speaker 3: entire situation, making vaslavs of the carcial state unnecessary. So
Speaker 3: there's a conscious choice there, especially when money is being
Speaker 3: taken out of the balance sheets of a city government
Speaker 3: from the libraries and put into the cops, of this
Speaker 3: carcural choice of saying, we'd rather everyone in life is
Speaker 3: shit so we can throw them in jail. Then everyone
Speaker 3: have a nice life and no one would have to
Speaker 3: go to jail.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they can come read a book instead,
Speaker 2: and yeah, it'd be nice. It reminds me of one
Speaker 2: of the big projects of the anarchists in Spain in
Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties was to create popular education centers which
Speaker 2: included libraries, right, and they funded these entirely. They were
Speaker 2: not funded by the state. The state was not interested
Speaker 2: in making libraries in nineteen twenties ninety thirties in Spain,
Speaker 2: and they funded them from popular subscription and from people's
Speaker 2: union dues, and they built these atta nails, which are
Speaker 2: now really beautiful places of one of the places I
Speaker 2: did my PhD in Barcelona. And like, I wonder if
Speaker 2: there is I guess it's very hard for us to
Speaker 2: conceive of like a library without the state in the
Speaker 2: United States, right, and like rich people putting little libraries
Speaker 2: in in their middle class neighborhoods is not the same
Speaker 2: thing as much as they'd like to think. It is
Speaker 2: like your little phone box library. It's not replacing these services.
Speaker 2: So is there a model for like recreating this in
Speaker 2: a way that isn't reliant on the state, which seems
Speaker 2: increasingly hostile to it.
Speaker 3: I think there's a couple models, and it depends upon
Speaker 3: how far down the revolution you go. So the example
Speaker 3: you gave of Spain, we have contemporary with that and
Speaker 3: slightly more recent versions of that in the US. So
Speaker 3: the workmen's circle now the workers circle, they funded really
Speaker 3: wonderful culture programs, including libraries. Unions often had libraries, especially
Speaker 3: back when they used to have more buildings, like my union.
Speaker 3: I'm part of my union, and aside from just like
Speaker 3: being where I work, we don't necessarily have a building
Speaker 3: per se. Yeah, So those things have always existed, especially
Speaker 3: in the workmen's circle in ethnic communities who were trying
Speaker 3: to preserve a culture. And that's something that fit into
Speaker 3: twentieth century capitalism. And so if we go farther than
Speaker 3: the revolution, I read a really great pamphlet recently from
Speaker 3: the seventies, actually that was from the UK, and it
Speaker 3: kind of discussed libraries. You know, if we make it
Speaker 3: through the revolution a little bit as being operated as
Speaker 3: under a syndicalist model where workers and patrons is what
Speaker 3: we call them now that wouldn't be quite quite that split,
Speaker 3: then would be able to govern and run these libraries.
Speaker 3: And there was a really great diagram. So there's definitely
Speaker 3: been ideas for a long time about what this could
Speaker 3: look like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess in the collectivised economy
Speaker 2: of revolutionary Barcelona, library still existed at the nails existed,
Speaker 2: and I'm sure it was a long a syndicalist model
Speaker 2: because everything was so Yeah, I think that's like a
Speaker 2: good thing for people to look towards. I want to
Speaker 2: stop and take one more break, and then I want
Speaker 2: to talk about what people can do to protect libraries.
Speaker 2: All Right, we are back so currently, Like I mean,
Speaker 2: this is like a funding cliff for the library system, right,
Speaker 2: I suppose It's hard to say, but like, how long
Speaker 2: would it take before people stop seeing these services if
Speaker 2: doge was to start doging tomorrow?
Speaker 3: I honestly can't tell, you know, I think that people
Speaker 3: really not doesn't It's hard to say now, right, because
Speaker 3: we do have the funding there, it just will it
Speaker 3: actually happen? Will the thing happen? Yeah, that has already
Speaker 3: been allocated. I think we have a little bit of time,
Speaker 3: but I would expect if that congressional isn't expressed that,
Speaker 3: especially when summer reading rolls around, will really start to
Speaker 3: see it, because that's something that a lot of people
Speaker 3: depend on to keep their kids occupied during the summer. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and especially out you know, in in red states and
Speaker 3: rural areas. It's going to be very much like the
Speaker 3: I never thought the leopards were going to eat my face.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, kind of situation which is sad, like because
Speaker 2: it's someone's kid who doesn't get to go to the
Speaker 2: library very often, right right, right.
Speaker 3: That sucks, you know, because it's going to be a
Speaker 3: lot of a lot of kids, especially without those resources.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think about like how like I wouldn't have
Speaker 2: survived my undergraduate without libraries book on my grad school
Speaker 2: books are super expensive, especially academic books, and like I
Speaker 2: relied very heavily on interlibrary loan.
Speaker 3: Yeah. And this is you know, at the university level,
Speaker 3: to be sure, where books are very expensive. Yeah, but
Speaker 3: at the public and school library level, you know, this
Speaker 3: is exactly why this is happening, is because there is
Speaker 3: this ongoing narrative from the last few decades where where people,
Speaker 3: especially like queer kids, say that the library save their lives. Yeah,
Speaker 3: young people of color saying like this is the only
Speaker 3: place I could see myself in culture by reading these books.
Speaker 3: So of course, of course this is happening because that
Speaker 3: you know, they want to take that away.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's a place where people can
Speaker 2: kind of exist yeah without that. Yeah, So let's talk about,
Speaker 2: like how can people engage to protect their libraries, What
Speaker 2: can they do what I like, some action items they
Speaker 2: can take.
Speaker 3: I unfortunately don't have great news. I don't think, you know,
Speaker 3: because of the way this is working, and it is
Speaker 3: so much about just like raw brute power that no
Speaker 3: one at the federal government or even state governments for
Speaker 3: the most part, seems to be able to counter. It's
Speaker 3: just like not something they can conceive of because they
Speaker 3: already are doing things that supposedly shouldn't be allowed. Right,
Speaker 3: We've already had the congressional funding. This should have a
Speaker 3: congressional you know, this is passed by Congress, and yet
Speaker 3: an executive order and Elon Muskin undo it. Right, if
Speaker 3: things were working, this wouldn't be happening. So we are
Speaker 3: really kind of down down the line a little bit
Speaker 3: in what we can do and how effective it's going
Speaker 3: to be. That said, there are things we can do.
Speaker 3: A lot of them are the things that liberals usually do,
Speaker 3: which is like calling your senator over and over and
Speaker 3: over again every day, and your representatives and your state
Speaker 3: or state government too to make sure that your state
Speaker 3: government is paying attention to what they're going to lose.
Speaker 3: There is certainly, you know, things one can sign on
Speaker 3: to for major library organizations, the ALA has been writing
Speaker 3: a lot and less formal organizations than that. I think
Speaker 3: one thing that we can always be doing, not just
Speaker 3: in the situation, but if you want to be supporting libraries,
Speaker 3: one of the best thing and easiest things you can
Speaker 3: do is go get a library card if you don't
Speaker 3: already have one, and use your damn library. There's probably
Speaker 3: something there that you want and that actually really does help.
Speaker 3: Because libraries, whether it's with something like IMLS, or whether
Speaker 3: it's grants from foundations and or local funders, you know,
Speaker 3: their local government are better able to make their argument
Speaker 3: for why they should be given money if they have
Speaker 3: good statistics to say, we had ten percent more readers
Speaker 3: this year. You know, the number of books we loan
Speaker 3: this year is higher than it's ever been. People are
Speaker 3: coming to our events and droves. That kind of you know,
Speaker 3: success breeds success. If they can show that to potential funders,
Speaker 3: they're more likely to get money. So don't don't get
Speaker 3: about through the book. Just check the book out. Keep
Speaker 3: before we can give it back. You know, have time
Speaker 3: make those numbers go up.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And you can even like let's say you're
Speaker 2: not inclined to go to the library, for whatever reason
Speaker 2: and you don't like going out or worried about COVID
Speaker 2: or something like. You can do most of this online, right, Like,
Speaker 2: if you have Libby, you can certainly you can borrow books.
Speaker 3: You can borrow ebooks and audiobooks from Libby. Some libraries
Speaker 3: have streaming movies. A lot of libraries have still either
Speaker 3: all online or hybrid events that you can watch rather
Speaker 3: than having to go to the event of the library.
Speaker 3: You know. The one thing about about some of those
Speaker 3: streaming services and Libby that I will caution about is
Speaker 3: that your data is less secure. If that's something you're
Speaker 3: concerned about, then it would be borrowing paper books. Because
Speaker 3: most libraries, even in the kind of tech dystopian future
Speaker 3: we live in, do a decent job or at least
Speaker 3: try to be good about your borrowing data when you
Speaker 3: borrow hard copies. But because things like Libby and the
Speaker 3: streaming services are third party integrations, those collect some amount
Speaker 3: of use data. So it's absolutely great to use those.
Speaker 3: But I would caution that if if you are a
Speaker 3: person who has a very high front model and you
Speaker 3: want to be careful about your data, go for the paper.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, it's kind nicer, nicer experience to read
Speaker 2: a paper book as well. It is what about like
Speaker 2: if people I know lots of people who are librarians, listen,
Speaker 2: say email me, Like is their way that they can organize?
Speaker 2: Who is the way the people are organizing, either to
Speaker 2: prevent this or like as a way of harm reduction, right, like,
Speaker 2: as a way of reducing the damage to the state
Speaker 2: can do to people's access to learning. Yeah.
Speaker 3: So there are a few more radical organizations that I
Speaker 3: think are worth paying attention to. My favorite is Library
Speaker 3: Freedom Project. They're really wonderful, okay, and more willing to
Speaker 3: say the thing without bullshit. Yeah, the thing that you know,
Speaker 3: I would obviously urge every worker to do this, But
Speaker 3: if you're if your workplace is not unionized, start working
Speaker 3: on that. Yeah, that will always give you more power,
Speaker 3: So you should. You should start trying to organize your workplace.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Hopefully hopefully there's still time for people to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, who knows where that's going to go, but you
Speaker 3: can at least try. It's still legal now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right when it starts, and like, regardless of what happens, like,
Speaker 2: we're stronger in this together than we are a part
Speaker 2: and the unions have done a lot to prevent fascism in.
Speaker 3: The past, and similarly, there are depending upon what state
Speaker 3: you live in, there might be a state library organization
Speaker 3: that is active, and that would be just a good
Speaker 3: way to make connections with other libraries near you and
Speaker 3: their librarians, and you know, maybe if you do lose
Speaker 3: some of your funding, you can put your heads together
Speaker 3: and you know, use each other's resources and have joint
Speaker 3: programming and things like that.
Speaker 2: That makes sense. Are people like attempting so some of
Speaker 2: the stuff I m a lesser is like online archives.
Speaker 2: Are people attempting to somehow to download that in order
Speaker 2: to preserve it in the event that it goes away?
Speaker 2: I don't know that that's really Is that not what's
Speaker 2: a threat?
Speaker 3: That's not really what we Yeah, I think that there
Speaker 3: are other kind of data rescue projects with the federal
Speaker 3: government that have better data than that. IMLS doesn't gay
Speaker 3: that much data, so I wouldn't be too concerned with that.
Speaker 2: Okay, So it's more like along the workplace organizing.
Speaker 3: Side, Yeah, it's definitely like trying to figure out to
Speaker 3: make how to make your and the libraries around you
Speaker 3: keep going and offering the things yea to your communities
Speaker 3: that they've been offering.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, it would be pretty tragic. Like there's a
Speaker 2: library not so far from my house, Like I can
Speaker 2: ren my bike, do it. I get it all the time,
Speaker 2: and it would be really tragic to be without that. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So yeah, please continue to organize your libraries. Is there
Speaker 2: anything else that you'd like to plug or suggest people? Like,
Speaker 2: it's a pretty bleak time generally, and I think a
Speaker 2: lot of us take refuge, especially in reading actually, like
Speaker 2: it's a way you can escape terrible things. Like is
Speaker 2: there anything else you'd like to kind of suggest for
Speaker 2: people as we dive deeper into fascism every day at
Speaker 2: the moment.
Speaker 3: I think in libraries and elsewhere where, it's just being
Speaker 3: able to offer a counter narrative, like not buying into
Speaker 3: the idea that the library is a money hole. You know, yeah,
Speaker 3: it can only be valued monetarily. So when you hear that,
Speaker 3: maybe start going to your library's board meetings and when
Speaker 3: you hear those kinds of things said, get online for
Speaker 3: the comments and offer a different narrative. And you can
Speaker 3: do that all over your life in different in different ways.
Speaker 3: When you hear that narrative that is monetary and neoliberal
Speaker 3: and harmful offer a different one.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's really good. Like, it's so sad
Speaker 2: to think that we should have to quantify the value
Speaker 2: of everything monetarity, but especially something like a library, Like
Speaker 2: so many people have had such positive engagements with them
Speaker 2: which have nothing to do with the cash. Next this
Speaker 2: sort of like generating revenue and that's what makes them
Speaker 2: valuable and what makes them special sometimes. So yeah, hopefully people,
Speaker 2: hopefully people can advocate for that. How would you find
Speaker 2: your library board meeting if you wanted to look?
Speaker 3: If you your library, if you have a public library
Speaker 3: near you, they should have a website and the website
Speaker 3: should have an events page that includes board meetings hopefully
Speaker 3: other information about your library's board as well. And if
Speaker 3: you can't find it, maybe call it the library and ask.
Speaker 3: I'll probably just tell you they're really good at information there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that is the thing that they do. All right, Well,
Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us, Jammie. That was great,
Speaker 2: It was really really helpful.
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It could happen.
Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more
Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website. Coolzonemedia dot
Speaker 1: com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find
Speaker 1: sources for it could happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.