WEBVTT - The Library Funding Cliff 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.960 As media. 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.039 Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's just me 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:11.920 James today and I'm joined by Jamie, who is a librarian, 0:00:12.000 --> 0:00:16.400 and we are here to discuss the pending federal cuts 0:00:16.440 --> 0:00:20.840 on library funding and I guess years of attacks on 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.320 library funding. So welcome to the show. Jamie. Thanks for 0:00:23.400 --> 0:00:23.880 joining us. 0:00:24.480 --> 0:00:25.440 Hi, thanks for having me. 0:00:25.720 --> 0:00:28.160 Yeah, this is really great for me because I have 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:29.960 been trying to find a librarian for a very long 0:00:30.000 --> 0:00:32.400 time to talk to us on the podcast. I understand 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:34.960 that lots of people have been like really concerned that 0:00:35.000 --> 0:00:37.040 we cover this, but also very afraid for their jobs, 0:00:37.080 --> 0:00:39.400 which is a rough position to be in. So thank 0:00:39.400 --> 0:00:43.000 you for coming on. I thought we'd start with like, 0:00:43.040 --> 0:00:45.200 there was an executive order on the fourteenth of March. 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:49.920 I think it was called something like further something the 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.960 federal bureaucracy cutting, slashing, diminishing whatever, you know, I don't 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:58.960 really care. One of the outcomes of this was I 0:00:59.000 --> 0:01:02.240 believe the Trump administry you're moving towards a complete closure 0:01:02.280 --> 0:01:03.880 of IMLS. Is that right? 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:08.200 So it depends upon how much joj and Trump and 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:12.959 company are going to listen to Congress, because Congress has 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.960 already funded IMLS. Just the Institute of Museum and Library 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:21.080 Services for this year, so that money already exists, it's 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.760 already been allocated, and so in theory they should be 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:27.760 good for at least a year, and then next year 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:30.800 when the budget comes up again, it should be up 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:34.960 to Congress, because Congress created this institution and Congress funds it. 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:40.000 But the executive Order and the commentary on it does 0:01:40.080 --> 0:01:43.120 say that they would like to dissolve it kind of 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:45.560 as soon as possible, definitely next year. So it's really 0:01:45.640 --> 0:01:47.760 up in the air about how fast things would move, 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.080 what exactly would happen, if it would be this year, 0:01:50.120 --> 0:01:53.400 if it be next year, Whether anyone's going to listen 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:54.320 to Congress. 0:01:54.280 --> 0:01:57.440 Yeah, we will find out, I guess. So can you 0:01:57.520 --> 0:02:00.880 explain for listeners who aren't familiar what i AM is 0:02:01.400 --> 0:02:02.280 and what it does. 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:05.640 Yeah, So it's as I said, the Institute of Museum 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.760 and Library Services, And so basically they are allocated money 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.440 by Congress every year, and then they hand it out 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:17.520 to states, especially them, who kind of break it down 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:19.960 into other grants. They give grants to states and libraries 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:24.639 and institutions for things that museums and libraries do. So 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:29.480 that includes things like on the museum side, maybe you know, 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:34.040 putting together programming or doing big digitization projects. I used 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:35.800 to work at an institution where we had a grant 0:02:35.840 --> 0:02:40.840 that did a lot of digitization of historic documents. And 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:43.640 on the library side, they do all sorts of stuff, 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:47.519 especially for public libraries. They end up funding things like 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:51.600 summer reading programs, equipment, especially for internet access, you know, 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:54.160 all this stuff related to job training and those services 0:02:54.160 --> 0:02:57.560 that libraries offer. And interlibrary loan is a big one 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:00.240 so that people can access materials of their life. Library 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.760 doesn't hold but it's held by other libraries. Yeah, and 0:03:03.160 --> 0:03:06.400 rural libraries and tribal libraries especially really really benefit from this. 0:03:06.560 --> 0:03:09.520 Every single state and territory in the country gets these funds. 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:11.839 Okay, yeah, I was I was wondering why who fund 0:03:11.840 --> 0:03:13.680 it into library loans so that they're the ones who 0:03:13.760 --> 0:03:16.160 facilitate like the transporting of the books. 0:03:16.360 --> 0:03:18.440 Yeah, well, you know, depending on how your library, some 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:21.239 libraries will fund it from their operations budget. But if okay, 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:23.359 you know, especially for small rural public libraries where that 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:26.000 might be very expensive. That is one thing that these 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:27.520 grants go to is interralibrary loan. 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:31.800 Okay. Yeah, there are lots of very important services, And 0:03:31.880 --> 0:03:34.519 what would it mean if we didn't have that IMLS 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:37.920 budget at all, Like, what would it mean especially if like, 0:03:37.920 --> 0:03:40.120 like you said, those kind of libraries that are financially 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:43.800 I guess more marginalized in tribal libraries and rural areas 0:03:43.800 --> 0:03:44.280 and stuff. 0:03:45.120 --> 0:03:48.160 So I first want to mention that the entire budget 0:03:48.160 --> 0:03:50.920 of IMLS for twenty twenty four was something like two 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.440 hundred and sixty six million dollars. We're not talking about 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:56.280 huge sums of money in terms of the federal government. 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.320 It comes out to about seventy five percent per person 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:01.400 in the country, So we're not going to be saving 0:04:01.440 --> 0:04:05.400 on our taxes if this goes away. But that money 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:08.320 makes a really big difference. So even smaller states that 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:10.160 you know, maybe have a million people in it might 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.240 see a couple million dollars of these grants per year. 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:17.520 And so what that would mean is that the things 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:20.039 that maybe not all of them, but most of the 0:04:20.080 --> 0:04:22.880 thing that these grants cover would not be there. So 0:04:22.920 --> 0:04:25.840 that means that there wouldn't be summer reading in some places. 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:30.400 That means that they wouldn't be able to buy the 0:04:30.440 --> 0:04:32.719 hot spots that they lend out to people who don't 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.440 have internet at home. That means that maybe there wouldn't 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:37.800 be the class that teaches your grandma how to not 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:41.560 get caught in a fishing scam. So all sorts of things, 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:44.520 those things just wouldn't be there because there's probably not, 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:47.960 especially in red states, other funds that are going to 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:48.840 come to cover that. 0:04:49.360 --> 0:04:51.480 Yeah, Like I think I was looking online and that 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.920 by Judy it's something like zero points zero zero three 0:04:55.000 --> 0:04:57.760 percent of the federal budget is going to It's trivial. 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:01.680 It's so small, right, Yeah, you could like take the 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:04.040 I don't know, the gold toilets away from the navy 0:05:04.120 --> 0:05:07.120 and cover it in right, Like it's so small, yeah, yeah, 0:05:07.120 --> 0:05:11.280 and yet it has this enormous outsized impact. You know, 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:16.240 the statistics say that every dollar spent on IMLS returns 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.480 two dollars to the economy. So it's actually, if you're 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:21.279 going to measure it that way, highly beneficial, especially to 0:05:21.360 --> 0:05:23.240 these more marginalized areas. 0:05:23.600 --> 0:05:25.679 Yeah, maybe we should talk about that because I think 0:05:25.920 --> 0:05:29.120 if people like maybe they just don't happen to go 0:05:29.160 --> 0:05:32.159 to the library, maybe they don't you know, realize they 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:33.880 have services they need, or maybe they don't live in 0:05:33.880 --> 0:05:36.279 the US the library is not just a place where 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.640 you can go and borrow the books, right, Like, can 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:41.200 you explain some of the services that libraries provide, like 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:43.200 you mentioned some, but they really help people. 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:47.480 Yeah, So, in for better or for worse, public libraries 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:50.160 in the United States have become the social safety net 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:54.600 of last resort because they already exist almost everywhere and 0:05:54.760 --> 0:05:57.800 it's so hard to get you know, even not right now, 0:05:57.839 --> 0:06:00.960 but even in the past couple decades, other social programs 0:06:00.960 --> 0:06:04.040 started in many parts of the US that things kind 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:05.560 of just get lumped into the libraries. So now you 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:07.479 get your tax forms there, maybe they have a social 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:10.160 worker on staff. It's the place that homeless folks can 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:11.000 sit when it's snowing. 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:13.280 Yeah, So that kind of is like a little bit. 0:06:13.160 --> 0:06:14.599 Of side from what we're talking about right here. But 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.760 I really do want to point out that public libraries 0:06:17.800 --> 0:06:20.760 have become the social safety net in many many places. 0:06:21.680 --> 0:06:26.120 So that aside you know, offerings of aside from books 0:06:26.120 --> 0:06:33.159 and other media including ebooks, audiobooks, movies, and lots of formats, magazines, newspapers, 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.920 there are tons of classes about all sorts of things, 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:40.520 especially technology classes. It's a place that a lot of 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.560 people it's their only reliable Internet access. So you know, 0:06:44.600 --> 0:06:47.279 in twenty twenty five, you can't do mostly anything without 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:49.520 the internet. You can't get a job without the internet, 0:06:49.560 --> 0:06:52.160 you can't maybe pay your bills without the internet. So 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:55.679 that's a reliable place that people who don't have internet 0:06:55.800 --> 0:06:58.320 for various reasons. Maybe they live so far out in 0:06:58.360 --> 0:06:59.960 the country that just doesn't go there unless you have 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:03.120 satellite right even now, or maybe you can't afford it 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:05.919 or whatever, or there's one computer in your house and 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:07.800 there's six kids, and someone has to do their homework, 0:07:07.839 --> 0:07:10.160 so what everyone else going to do, So then the 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:13.200 computers themselves. And then also the other thing that I 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.080 am less also does is those grants will sometimes purchase 0:07:16.280 --> 0:07:19.200 research databases, so if people kids especially are trying to 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:22.680 do their homework. Again, like children's and teens programming is 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:26.440 another thing between homework help social things clubs. So in 0:07:26.480 --> 0:07:28.360 a lot of places where there's not much going on, 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:31.280 it's one of the places where young people can go 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.120 in the afternoon or on the weekend and not be 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:37.640 getting in trouble either because they're making trouble or the 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.160 adults think they are, because there's somewhere productive to be 0:07:40.200 --> 0:07:44.320 there's somewhere that's inside, supervised or something to do. And 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.400 so that's the kind of stuff we talk about in 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:49.720 normal times when we're trying to fight for like weekend 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:52.320 service or later hours. But if we're looking at it 0:07:52.360 --> 0:07:55.800 in the lens of IMLS, the building might be open, 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.280 maybe because maybe they have the foundational operationals butt it. 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:01.120 But then there won't be these programs, there won't be 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:02.840 these resources. They will just be a bunch of books 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:03.600 on the shelves. 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.120 Yeah, It's like, I don't know. I'm amazed how many 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.720 of my friends and neighbors don't understand how much celebrity does. 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.360 Like I'm forever like San Diego are housing prices are 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.760 ridiculous and no one seems to want them to not 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:19.240 be ridiculous. Lots of us do, but we don't get 0:08:19.280 --> 0:08:22.440 to choose, and so like we have a larger house population, 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.640 and I'm always like helping my own house neighbors go 0:08:25.720 --> 0:08:27.440 to the library and give them a ride or whatever 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:31.320 so they can yet, like you say, access internet services for. 0:08:31.360 --> 0:08:33.880 Benefits, yeah, or just like sit and read the paper 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:34.320 and know what's. 0:08:34.240 --> 0:08:36.480 Going on in the world, yeah, and like not get 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.520 harassed by the cops just for existing, right, which is 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.640 the rest of their existence here? Certainly, Yeah, these are 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:44.800 massively important. I think most people are like have no 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:46.840 one because there's not really a big like fuck the 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:51.720 library's movement, you know, like I think people I mean, yeah, 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:55.679 I guess, yeah, I guess it's the whole Like people 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:59.760 should only read stories if they can form and whatnot. Yeah, 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:05.760 fuck those people. A yeah, talking of fuck those people, 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:09.240 we unfortunately have to pivot to ads, so you know, 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:22.760 here is some unfortunate advertisements. All right, we're back talking 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.600 to people I dislike. Actually, San Diego mayor Todd Gloria, 0:09:27.120 --> 0:09:29.679 who was elected in twenty twenty and then re elected 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.920 shamefully this year, which is very disappointing. One of his 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.640 first actions was to propose a budget which increased the 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:40.520 punding to the police, surprise, and decrease the funding to 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:42.199 the libraries. It would lead to them closing for an 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:45.800 extra day. Right, And this is our quote unquote progressive mayor, 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.680 who you know has been anything but but this isn't 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:54.240 a particularly uncommon scenario, right. I've spoken since then to 0:09:54.400 --> 0:09:58.240 librarians around the country who, for the last at least 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.640 half decade have faced funding cuts. Can you explain, like 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.240 why doesn't the state see value in these services? I mean, 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:09.920 I wanted to speak for, you know, the Democrats defunding 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:11.800 the libraries to give the cops more money. But can 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:13.880 can you explain, like why there has been this ongoing 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:15.520 assault on library budgets. 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:18.240 So you know, you're talking about the last decade and 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.600 a half decade. I think we can really trace it 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:24.680 back much farther, at least thirty years to the Clinton administration. Actually, okay, 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:26.880 I want to talk about the Democrats, but even you know, 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.400 the roots farther back than that, because we have a 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:33.839 neoliberal problem, right, So it's basically the idea that all 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:38.280 activity should generate obvious, immediate monetary profit, that everything should 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:40.439 be run by a business, that everything should be subject 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:41.560 to the market. 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:42.760 Quote unquote yeah. 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:45.080 And so that's where we are with libraries, is that 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:48.200 even though I can sit here and say every dollar 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.360 that the IMLS spends generates two dollars with economic activity, 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:55.280 that that somehow isn't even good enough because when the 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:58.400 powers that be look at libraries, they just see money 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:00.760 being flushed down the toilet, and that's the only way 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:03.360 they can measure anything. So if you look at it 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:05.480 and you're just saying, well, this is a place we 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:08.800 spend money. This doesn't create money, This doesn't make more money. 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:12.200 Happen the idea that everything should be run by a 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:16.840 business and everything is it should be subject to market logics. 0:11:17.320 --> 0:11:19.400 That that would say, well, if we're going to subject 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.199 everything to market logics, libraries have no value because we're 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.640 only measuring it. And can this make the balance sheet? 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:27.160 Can this make number go up? 0:11:27.480 --> 0:11:28.560 Yeah? 0:11:28.600 --> 0:11:31.600 And even though libraries do make number go up, it's 0:11:31.640 --> 0:11:34.880 not obvious. You can't make it obvious. There's no direct 0:11:34.960 --> 0:11:37.840 line between what libraries do and number go up, even 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:41.520 though there actually is, for example with imls. So, you know, 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:46.120 starting during the Clinton administration, when the federal government changed 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:48.920 and how the federal government work changed very much under 0:11:49.000 --> 0:11:53.559 the guise of increasing service quality, but what they actually 0:11:53.640 --> 0:11:56.559 did was lay off a quarter million workers and you know, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:01.040 turn everything into contract work instead of regular labor. And 0:12:01.880 --> 0:12:05.679 that I think filtered down from the federal level into 0:12:05.800 --> 0:12:10.720 states and municipalities, so that those levels of government too 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:15.400 also started to look at how they ran their government things. 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.680 And in many places, public libraries are arms of local 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.720 government that those two should also be run like a 0:12:21.720 --> 0:12:24.480 business would be subject to market logics, and therefore number 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:28.120 does not go up. We don't value this, and that's 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:31.440 basically it is that you know. There, it's hard now 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:36.720 that we've had thirty years of overt neoliberalism in our 0:12:36.840 --> 0:12:39.800 government system and a couple of decades more of less 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.880 obvious versions of it to make government, which is now 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.160 being run like a business, even in the best of times, 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.680 value things that aren't that aren't valued strictly monetarily, so 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:54.280 there's no cultural value. And even if the monetary value 0:12:54.280 --> 0:12:56.199 isn't extremely obvious, it somehow doesn't count. 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.320 Yeah, yeah, I guess it kind of. I used to 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.560 electorate lecture at university actually starting again next month, but 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.920 like we pivoted towards like everything has to be stem 0:13:07.200 --> 0:13:09.000 in education Germany because. 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:10.439 So that'll make money or something. 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:12.880 Yeah, I don't know why, because like Bill Gates make 0:13:12.960 --> 0:13:16.040 the line go up, and yeah, we lost so much 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.520 that has not just intangible bound you you say, but 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:23.120 actual tangible value, very very obvious value, but nonetheless, like 0:13:23.120 --> 0:13:24.800 like you say, it's not easy to purn a graph, 0:13:25.080 --> 0:13:27.200 so it disappears. 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.320 Right, and then you know, even though cops also don't 0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:32.400 make money. Yeah, in a direct sense, somehow we can 0:13:32.440 --> 0:13:34.800 still fund that. So it really shows that, like in 0:13:34.840 --> 0:13:37.680 the case of where you are, but the carcal solution 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.040 is now the only solution we have. 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:40.040 Yeah. 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.520 And when we sit here as abolitionists and we say well, 0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:44.679 let's get rid of all that stuff, and people say, well, 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:47.080 what are you going to do instead, our answer is 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:49.920 often it would be so different that it wouldn't be necessary, 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:53.000 so we'd have prevention of the entire situation. That's one 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:56.040 of the things that libraries offer is prevention of the 0:13:56.200 --> 0:14:00.880 entire situation, making vaslavs of the carcial state unnecessary. So 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.520 there's a conscious choice there, especially when money is being 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:05.640 taken out of the balance sheets of a city government 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:07.760 from the libraries and put into the cops, of this 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.839 carcural choice of saying, we'd rather everyone in life is 0:14:10.840 --> 0:14:13.520 shit so we can throw them in jail. Then everyone 0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:14.839 have a nice life and no one would have to 0:14:14.840 --> 0:14:15.360 go to jail. 0:14:15.760 --> 0:14:17.560 Yeah, and then they can come read a book instead, 0:14:17.559 --> 0:14:20.520 and yeah, it'd be nice. It reminds me of one 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:22.280 of the big projects of the anarchists in Spain in 0:14:22.280 --> 0:14:25.360 the nineteen thirties was to create popular education centers which 0:14:25.360 --> 0:14:30.040 included libraries, right, and they funded these entirely. They were 0:14:30.040 --> 0:14:32.680 not funded by the state. The state was not interested 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.560 in making libraries in nineteen twenties ninety thirties in Spain, 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:38.320 and they funded them from popular subscription and from people's 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.040 union dues, and they built these atta nails, which are 0:14:41.080 --> 0:14:43.360 now really beautiful places of one of the places I 0:14:43.400 --> 0:14:48.760 did my PhD in Barcelona. And like, I wonder if 0:14:48.840 --> 0:14:50.920 there is I guess it's very hard for us to 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.120 conceive of like a library without the state in the 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.120 United States, right, and like rich people putting little libraries 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.600 in in their middle class neighborhoods is not the same 0:14:59.640 --> 0:15:02.920 thing as much as they'd like to think. It is 0:15:03.040 --> 0:15:07.080 like your little phone box library. It's not replacing these services. 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.920 So is there a model for like recreating this in 0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:13.040 a way that isn't reliant on the state, which seems 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:14.320 increasingly hostile to it. 0:15:15.040 --> 0:15:17.320 I think there's a couple models, and it depends upon 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.120 how far down the revolution you go. So the example 0:15:20.160 --> 0:15:22.960 you gave of Spain, we have contemporary with that and 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:25.800 slightly more recent versions of that in the US. So 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.680 the workmen's circle now the workers circle, they funded really 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:34.840 wonderful culture programs, including libraries. Unions often had libraries, especially 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:37.240 back when they used to have more buildings, like my union. 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.200 I'm part of my union, and aside from just like 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:42.960 being where I work, we don't necessarily have a building 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.600 per se. Yeah, So those things have always existed, especially 0:15:46.720 --> 0:15:50.960 in the workmen's circle in ethnic communities who were trying 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:54.680 to preserve a culture. And that's something that fit into 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.200 twentieth century capitalism. And so if we go farther than 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:01.160 the revolution, I read a really great pamphlet recently from 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.680 the seventies, actually that was from the UK, and it 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.560 kind of discussed libraries. You know, if we make it 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:09.400 through the revolution a little bit as being operated as 0:16:09.920 --> 0:16:16.160 under a syndicalist model where workers and patrons is what 0:16:16.200 --> 0:16:18.760 we call them now that wouldn't be quite quite that split, 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:22.040 then would be able to govern and run these libraries. 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.080 And there was a really great diagram. So there's definitely 0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:27.520 been ideas for a long time about what this could 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:27.960 look like. 0:16:28.360 --> 0:16:31.040 Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess in the collectivised economy 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:34.600 of revolutionary Barcelona, library still existed at the nails existed, 0:16:34.720 --> 0:16:36.360 and I'm sure it was a long a syndicalist model 0:16:36.360 --> 0:16:39.960 because everything was so Yeah, I think that's like a 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:43.800 good thing for people to look towards. I want to 0:16:43.840 --> 0:16:45.760 stop and take one more break, and then I want 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.520 to talk about what people can do to protect libraries. 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:03.080 All Right, we are back so currently, Like I mean, 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.199 this is like a funding cliff for the library system, right, 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:08.040 I suppose It's hard to say, but like, how long 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.560 would it take before people stop seeing these services if 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:12.400 doge was to start doging tomorrow? 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.840 I honestly can't tell, you know, I think that people 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:20.840 really not doesn't It's hard to say now, right, because 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:23.000 we do have the funding there, it just will it 0:17:23.119 --> 0:17:26.520 actually happen? Will the thing happen? Yeah, that has already 0:17:26.520 --> 0:17:30.399 been allocated. I think we have a little bit of time, 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:35.480 but I would expect if that congressional isn't expressed that, 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.440 especially when summer reading rolls around, will really start to 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.200 see it, because that's something that a lot of people 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.680 depend on to keep their kids occupied during the summer. Yeah, 0:17:43.680 --> 0:17:47.080 and especially out you know, in in red states and 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:49.280 rural areas. It's going to be very much like the 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:51.920 I never thought the leopards were going to eat my face. 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:56.560 Yeah, yeah, kind of situation which is sad, like because 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:58.359 it's someone's kid who doesn't get to go to the 0:17:58.359 --> 0:18:00.399 library very often, right right, right. 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:04.240 That sucks, you know, because it's going to be a 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:07.040 lot of a lot of kids, especially without those resources. 0:18:07.400 --> 0:18:11.480 Yeah. I think about like how like I wouldn't have 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:15.159 survived my undergraduate without libraries book on my grad school 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.119 books are super expensive, especially academic books, and like I 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:21.280 relied very heavily on interlibrary loan. 0:18:21.400 --> 0:18:23.800 Yeah. And this is you know, at the university level, 0:18:23.800 --> 0:18:26.280 to be sure, where books are very expensive. Yeah, but 0:18:26.560 --> 0:18:29.280 at the public and school library level, you know, this 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:31.560 is exactly why this is happening, is because there is 0:18:31.600 --> 0:18:34.960 this ongoing narrative from the last few decades where where people, 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.840 especially like queer kids, say that the library save their lives. Yeah, 0:18:39.000 --> 0:18:40.920 young people of color saying like this is the only 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.240 place I could see myself in culture by reading these books. 0:18:44.240 --> 0:18:46.840 So of course, of course this is happening because that 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:49.159 you know, they want to take that away. 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:51.920 Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's a place where people can 0:18:52.000 --> 0:18:56.600 kind of exist yeah without that. Yeah, So let's talk about, 0:18:56.640 --> 0:18:59.199 like how can people engage to protect their libraries, What 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:01.960 can they do what I like, some action items they 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:02.320 can take. 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:05.679 I unfortunately don't have great news. I don't think, you know, 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.760 because of the way this is working, and it is 0:19:07.800 --> 0:19:11.800 so much about just like raw brute power that no 0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.679 one at the federal government or even state governments for 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:16.920 the most part, seems to be able to counter. It's 0:19:16.960 --> 0:19:20.200 just like not something they can conceive of because they 0:19:20.240 --> 0:19:23.240 already are doing things that supposedly shouldn't be allowed. Right, 0:19:23.320 --> 0:19:25.359 We've already had the congressional funding. This should have a 0:19:25.400 --> 0:19:28.000 congressional you know, this is passed by Congress, and yet 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:30.840 an executive order and Elon Muskin undo it. Right, if 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:34.440 things were working, this wouldn't be happening. So we are 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.719 really kind of down down the line a little bit 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:39.560 in what we can do and how effective it's going 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:41.800 to be. That said, there are things we can do. 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:46.399 A lot of them are the things that liberals usually do, 0:19:46.720 --> 0:19:49.680 which is like calling your senator over and over and 0:19:49.760 --> 0:19:52.880 over again every day, and your representatives and your state 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:55.080 or state government too to make sure that your state 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:58.040 government is paying attention to what they're going to lose. 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.919 There is certainly, you know, things one can sign on 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:05.440 to for major library organizations, the ALA has been writing 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.440 a lot and less formal organizations than that. I think 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:11.679 one thing that we can always be doing, not just 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:14.560 in the situation, but if you want to be supporting libraries, 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:16.359 one of the best thing and easiest things you can 0:20:16.400 --> 0:20:18.320 do is go get a library card if you don't 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:21.280 already have one, and use your damn library. There's probably 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:24.920 something there that you want and that actually really does help. 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:29.840 Because libraries, whether it's with something like IMLS, or whether 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.639