1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:04,960 Speaker 1: As media. 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 2: Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast. It's just me 3 00:00:08,320 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 2: James today and I'm joined by Jamie, who is a librarian, 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 2: and we are here to discuss the pending federal cuts 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: on library funding and I guess years of attacks on 6 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 2: library funding. So welcome to the show. Jamie. Thanks for 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 2: joining us. 8 00:00:24,480 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 3: Hi, thanks for having me. 9 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, this is really great for me because I have 10 00:00:28,240 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: been trying to find a librarian for a very long 11 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 2: time to talk to us on the podcast. I understand 12 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 2: that lots of people have been like really concerned that 13 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 2: we cover this, but also very afraid for their jobs, 14 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:39,400 Speaker 2: which is a rough position to be in. So thank 15 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 2: you for coming on. I thought we'd start with like, 16 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 2: there was an executive order on the fourteenth of March. 17 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 2: I think it was called something like further something the 18 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,960 Speaker 2: federal bureaucracy cutting, slashing, diminishing whatever, you know, I don't 19 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 2: really care. One of the outcomes of this was I 20 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 2: believe the Trump administry you're moving towards a complete closure 21 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 2: of IMLS. Is that right? 22 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 3: So it depends upon how much joj and Trump and 23 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 3: company are going to listen to Congress, because Congress has 24 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,960 Speaker 3: already funded IMLS. Just the Institute of Museum and Library 25 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 3: Services for this year, so that money already exists, it's 26 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 3: already been allocated, and so in theory they should be 27 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 3: good for at least a year, and then next year 28 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 3: when the budget comes up again, it should be up 29 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 3: to Congress, because Congress created this institution and Congress funds it. 30 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 3: But the executive Order and the commentary on it does 31 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 3: say that they would like to dissolve it kind of 32 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,560 Speaker 3: as soon as possible, definitely next year. So it's really 33 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 3: up in the air about how fast things would move, 34 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 3: what exactly would happen, if it would be this year, 35 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 3: if it be next year, Whether anyone's going to listen 36 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 3: to Congress. 37 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, we will find out, I guess. So can you 38 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 2: explain for listeners who aren't familiar what i AM is 39 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:02,280 Speaker 2: and what it does. 40 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's as I said, the Institute of Museum 41 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 3: and Library Services, And so basically they are allocated money 42 00:02:09,800 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 3: by Congress every year, and then they hand it out 43 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:17,520 Speaker 3: to states, especially them, who kind of break it down 44 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 3: into other grants. They give grants to states and libraries 45 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:24,639 Speaker 3: and institutions for things that museums and libraries do. So 46 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 3: that includes things like on the museum side, maybe you know, 47 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:34,040 Speaker 3: putting together programming or doing big digitization projects. I used 48 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 3: to work at an institution where we had a grant 49 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 3: that did a lot of digitization of historic documents. And 50 00:02:40,960 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 3: on the library side, they do all sorts of stuff, 51 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:47,519 Speaker 3: especially for public libraries. They end up funding things like 52 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 3: summer reading programs, equipment, especially for internet access, you know, 53 00:02:51,880 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 3: all this stuff related to job training and those services 54 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 3: that libraries offer. And interlibrary loan is a big one 55 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 3: so that people can access materials of their life. Library 56 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 3: doesn't hold but it's held by other libraries. Yeah, and 57 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 3: rural libraries and tribal libraries especially really really benefit from this. 58 00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 3: Every single state and territory in the country gets these funds. 59 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:11,839 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, I was I was wondering why who fund 60 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 2: it into library loans so that they're the ones who 61 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: facilitate like the transporting of the books. 62 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:18,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, depending on how your library, some 63 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:21,239 Speaker 3: libraries will fund it from their operations budget. But if okay, 64 00:03:21,360 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 3: you know, especially for small rural public libraries where that 65 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 3: might be very expensive. That is one thing that these 66 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 3: grants go to is interralibrary loan. 67 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 2: Okay. Yeah, there are lots of very important services, And 68 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,519 Speaker 2: what would it mean if we didn't have that IMLS 69 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: budget at all, Like, what would it mean especially if like, 70 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,120 Speaker 2: like you said, those kind of libraries that are financially 71 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: I guess more marginalized in tribal libraries and rural areas 72 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: and stuff. 73 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 3: So I first want to mention that the entire budget 74 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: of IMLS for twenty twenty four was something like two 75 00:03:51,040 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 3: hundred and sixty six million dollars. We're not talking about 76 00:03:53,720 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 3: huge sums of money in terms of the federal government. 77 00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 3: It comes out to about seventy five percent per person 78 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,400 Speaker 3: in the country, So we're not going to be saving 79 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 3: on our taxes if this goes away. But that money 80 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 3: makes a really big difference. So even smaller states that 81 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 3: you know, maybe have a million people in it might 82 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 3: see a couple million dollars of these grants per year. 83 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 3: And so what that would mean is that the things 84 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 3: that maybe not all of them, but most of the 85 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 3: thing that these grants cover would not be there. So 86 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 3: that means that there wouldn't be summer reading in some places. 87 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 3: That means that they wouldn't be able to buy the 88 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 3: hot spots that they lend out to people who don't 89 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,440 Speaker 3: have internet at home. That means that maybe there wouldn't 90 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:37,800 Speaker 3: be the class that teaches your grandma how to not 91 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:41,560 Speaker 3: get caught in a fishing scam. So all sorts of things, 92 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 3: those things just wouldn't be there because there's probably not, 93 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 3: especially in red states, other funds that are going to 94 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 3: come to cover that. 95 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I think I was looking online and that 96 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,920 Speaker 2: by Judy it's something like zero points zero zero three 97 00:04:55,000 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: percent of the federal budget is going to It's trivial. 98 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 3: It's so small, right, Yeah, you could like take the 99 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,040 Speaker 3: I don't know, the gold toilets away from the navy 100 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 3: and cover it in right, Like it's so small, yeah, yeah, 101 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,280 Speaker 3: and yet it has this enormous outsized impact. You know, 102 00:05:11,960 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 3: the statistics say that every dollar spent on IMLS returns 103 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 3: two dollars to the economy. So it's actually, if you're 104 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 3: going to measure it that way, highly beneficial, especially to 105 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 3: these more marginalized areas. 106 00:05:23,600 --> 00:05:25,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe we should talk about that because I think 107 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 2: if people like maybe they just don't happen to go 108 00:05:29,160 --> 00:05:32,159 Speaker 2: to the library, maybe they don't you know, realize they 109 00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 2: have services they need, or maybe they don't live in 110 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 2: the US the library is not just a place where 111 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 2: you can go and borrow the books, right, Like, can 112 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: you explain some of the services that libraries provide, like 113 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:43,200 Speaker 2: you mentioned some, but they really help people. 114 00:05:43,279 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, So, in for better or for worse, public libraries 115 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 3: in the United States have become the social safety net 116 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,600 Speaker 3: of last resort because they already exist almost everywhere and 117 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,800 Speaker 3: it's so hard to get you know, even not right now, 118 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: but even in the past couple decades, other social programs 119 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 3: started in many parts of the US that things kind 120 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:05,560 Speaker 3: of just get lumped into the libraries. So now you 121 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,479 Speaker 3: get your tax forms there, maybe they have a social 122 00:06:07,520 --> 00:06:10,160 Speaker 3: worker on staff. It's the place that homeless folks can 123 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:11,000 Speaker 3: sit when it's snowing. 124 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, So that kind of is like a little bit. 125 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 3: Of side from what we're talking about right here. But 126 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 3: I really do want to point out that public libraries 127 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 3: have become the social safety net in many many places. 128 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 3: So that aside you know, offerings of aside from books 129 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 3: and other media including ebooks, audiobooks, movies, and lots of formats, magazines, newspapers, 130 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,920 Speaker 3: there are tons of classes about all sorts of things, 131 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 3: especially technology classes. It's a place that a lot of 132 00:06:40,560 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 3: people it's their only reliable Internet access. So you know, 133 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:47,279 Speaker 3: in twenty twenty five, you can't do mostly anything without 134 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 3: the internet. You can't get a job without the internet, 135 00:06:49,560 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 3: you can't maybe pay your bills without the internet. So 136 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:55,679 Speaker 3: that's a reliable place that people who don't have internet 137 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 3: for various reasons. Maybe they live so far out in 138 00:06:58,360 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 3: the country that just doesn't go there unless you have 139 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,120 Speaker 3: satellite right even now, or maybe you can't afford it 140 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 3: or whatever, or there's one computer in your house and 141 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 3: there's six kids, and someone has to do their homework, 142 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 3: so what everyone else going to do, So then the 143 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 3: computers themselves. And then also the other thing that I 144 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:16,080 Speaker 3: am less also does is those grants will sometimes purchase 145 00:07:16,280 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 3: research databases, so if people kids especially are trying to 146 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 3: do their homework. Again, like children's and teens programming is 147 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 3: another thing between homework help social things clubs. So in 148 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 3: a lot of places where there's not much going on, 149 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 3: it's one of the places where young people can go 150 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 3: in the afternoon or on the weekend and not be 151 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 3: getting in trouble either because they're making trouble or the 152 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 3: adults think they are, because there's somewhere productive to be 153 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 3: there's somewhere that's inside, supervised or something to do. And 154 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 3: so that's the kind of stuff we talk about in 155 00:07:47,400 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 3: normal times when we're trying to fight for like weekend 156 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 3: service or later hours. But if we're looking at it 157 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 3: in the lens of IMLS, the building might be open, 158 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,280 Speaker 3: maybe because maybe they have the foundational operationals butt it. 159 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 3: But then there won't be these programs, there won't be 160 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: these resources. They will just be a bunch of books 161 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:03,600 Speaker 3: on the shelves. 162 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, It's like, I don't know. I'm amazed how many 163 00:08:07,120 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 2: of my friends and neighbors don't understand how much celebrity does. 164 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:13,360 Speaker 2: Like I'm forever like San Diego are housing prices are 165 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 2: ridiculous and no one seems to want them to not 166 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 2: be ridiculous. Lots of us do, but we don't get 167 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: to choose, and so like we have a larger house population, 168 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:25,640 Speaker 2: and I'm always like helping my own house neighbors go 169 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 2: to the library and give them a ride or whatever 170 00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 2: so they can yet, like you say, access internet services for. 171 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 3: Benefits, yeah, or just like sit and read the paper 172 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:34,320 Speaker 3: and know what's. 173 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,480 Speaker 2: Going on in the world, yeah, and like not get 174 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 2: harassed by the cops just for existing, right, which is 175 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 2: the rest of their existence here? Certainly, Yeah, these are 176 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: massively important. I think most people are like have no 177 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 2: one because there's not really a big like fuck the 178 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 2: library's movement, you know, like I think people I mean, yeah, 179 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,679 Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, I guess it's the whole Like people 180 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: should only read stories if they can form and whatnot. Yeah, 181 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 2: fuck those people. A yeah, talking of fuck those people, 182 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: we unfortunately have to pivot to ads, so you know, 183 00:09:09,280 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 2: here is some unfortunate advertisements. All right, we're back talking 184 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:26,600 Speaker 2: to people I dislike. Actually, San Diego mayor Todd Gloria, 185 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:29,679 Speaker 2: who was elected in twenty twenty and then re elected 186 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: shamefully this year, which is very disappointing. One of his 187 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,640 Speaker 2: first actions was to propose a budget which increased the 188 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: punding to the police, surprise, and decrease the funding to 189 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:42,199 Speaker 2: the libraries. It would lead to them closing for an 190 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 2: extra day. Right, And this is our quote unquote progressive mayor, 191 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: who you know has been anything but but this isn't 192 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 2: a particularly uncommon scenario, right. I've spoken since then to 193 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: librarians around the country who, for the last at least 194 00:09:58,520 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: half decade have faced funding cuts. Can you explain, like 195 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 2: why doesn't the state see value in these services? I mean, 196 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: I wanted to speak for, you know, the Democrats defunding 197 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: the libraries to give the cops more money. But can 198 00:10:11,840 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 2: can you explain, like why there has been this ongoing 199 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 2: assault on library budgets. 200 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 3: So you know, you're talking about the last decade and 201 00:10:18,240 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 3: a half decade. I think we can really trace it 202 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 3: back much farther, at least thirty years to the Clinton administration. Actually, okay, 203 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 3: I want to talk about the Democrats, but even you know, 204 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 3: the roots farther back than that, because we have a 205 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 3: neoliberal problem, right, So it's basically the idea that all 206 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 3: activity should generate obvious, immediate monetary profit, that everything should 207 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,439 Speaker 3: be run by a business, that everything should be subject 208 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 3: to the market. 209 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 2: Quote unquote yeah. 210 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 3: And so that's where we are with libraries, is that 211 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 3: even though I can sit here and say every dollar 212 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 3: that the IMLS spends generates two dollars with economic activity, 213 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 3: that that somehow isn't even good enough because when the 214 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 3: powers that be look at libraries, they just see money 215 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 3: being flushed down the toilet, and that's the only way 216 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: they can measure anything. So if you look at it 217 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 3: and you're just saying, well, this is a place we 218 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 3: spend money. This doesn't create money, This doesn't make more money. 219 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 3: Happen the idea that everything should be run by a 220 00:11:12,200 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 3: business and everything is it should be subject to market logics. 221 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 3: That that would say, well, if we're going to subject 222 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 3: everything to market logics, libraries have no value because we're 223 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 3: only measuring it. And can this make the balance sheet? 224 00:11:26,000 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 3: Can this make number go up? 225 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: Yeah? 226 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 3: And even though libraries do make number go up, it's 227 00:11:31,640 --> 00:11:34,880 Speaker 3: not obvious. You can't make it obvious. There's no direct 228 00:11:34,960 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 3: line between what libraries do and number go up, even 229 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 3: though there actually is, for example with imls. So, you know, 230 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 3: starting during the Clinton administration, when the federal government changed 231 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 3: and how the federal government work changed very much under 232 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:53,559 Speaker 3: the guise of increasing service quality, but what they actually 233 00:11:53,640 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 3: did was lay off a quarter million workers and you know, 234 00:11:56,800 --> 00:12:01,040 Speaker 3: turn everything into contract work instead of regular labor. And 235 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 3: that I think filtered down from the federal level into 236 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:10,720 Speaker 3: states and municipalities, so that those levels of government too 237 00:12:10,800 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 3: also started to look at how they ran their government things. 238 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 3: And in many places, public libraries are arms of local 239 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 3: government that those two should also be run like a 240 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 3: business would be subject to market logics, and therefore number 241 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 3: does not go up. We don't value this, and that's 242 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 3: basically it is that you know. There, it's hard now 243 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 3: that we've had thirty years of overt neoliberalism in our 244 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 3: government system and a couple of decades more of less 245 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 3: obvious versions of it to make government, which is now 246 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 3: being run like a business, even in the best of times, 247 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 3: value things that aren't that aren't valued strictly monetarily, so 248 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 3: there's no cultural value. And even if the monetary value 249 00:12:54,280 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 3: isn't extremely obvious, it somehow doesn't count. 250 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I guess it kind of. I used to 251 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 2: electorate lecture at university actually starting again next month, but 252 00:13:03,559 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 2: like we pivoted towards like everything has to be stem 253 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 2: in education Germany because. 254 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 3: So that'll make money or something. 255 00:13:10,559 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know why, because like Bill Gates make 256 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 2: the line go up, and yeah, we lost so much 257 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 2: that has not just intangible bound you you say, but 258 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: actual tangible value, very very obvious value, but nonetheless, like 259 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 2: like you say, it's not easy to purn a graph, 260 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 2: so it disappears. 261 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,320 Speaker 3: Right, and then you know, even though cops also don't 262 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 3: make money. Yeah, in a direct sense, somehow we can 263 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 3: still fund that. So it really shows that, like in 264 00:13:34,840 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 3: the case of where you are, but the carcal solution 265 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,040 Speaker 3: is now the only solution we have. 266 00:13:39,760 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 267 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 3: And when we sit here as abolitionists and we say well, 268 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:44,679 Speaker 3: let's get rid of all that stuff, and people say, well, 269 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 3: what are you going to do instead, our answer is 270 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 3: often it would be so different that it wouldn't be necessary, 271 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:53,000 Speaker 3: so we'd have prevention of the entire situation. That's one 272 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 3: of the things that libraries offer is prevention of the 273 00:13:56,200 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: entire situation, making vaslavs of the carcial state unnecessary. So 274 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 3: there's a conscious choice there, especially when money is being 275 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:05,640 Speaker 3: taken out of the balance sheets of a city government 276 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:07,760 Speaker 3: from the libraries and put into the cops, of this 277 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,839 Speaker 3: carcural choice of saying, we'd rather everyone in life is 278 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:13,520 Speaker 3: shit so we can throw them in jail. Then everyone 279 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:14,839 Speaker 3: have a nice life and no one would have to 280 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 3: go to jail. 281 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then they can come read a book instead, 282 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 2: and yeah, it'd be nice. It reminds me of one 283 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,280 Speaker 2: of the big projects of the anarchists in Spain in 284 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: the nineteen thirties was to create popular education centers which 285 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:30,040 Speaker 2: included libraries, right, and they funded these entirely. They were 286 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 2: not funded by the state. The state was not interested 287 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: in making libraries in nineteen twenties ninety thirties in Spain, 288 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:38,320 Speaker 2: and they funded them from popular subscription and from people's 289 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: union dues, and they built these atta nails, which are 290 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 2: now really beautiful places of one of the places I 291 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 2: did my PhD in Barcelona. And like, I wonder if 292 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,920 Speaker 2: there is I guess it's very hard for us to 293 00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 2: conceive of like a library without the state in the 294 00:14:53,240 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: United States, right, and like rich people putting little libraries 295 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 2: in in their middle class neighborhoods is not the same 296 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 2: thing as much as they'd like to think. It is 297 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: like your little phone box library. It's not replacing these services. 298 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 2: So is there a model for like recreating this in 299 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 2: a way that isn't reliant on the state, which seems 300 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 2: increasingly hostile to it. 301 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,320 Speaker 3: I think there's a couple models, and it depends upon 302 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 3: how far down the revolution you go. So the example 303 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 3: you gave of Spain, we have contemporary with that and 304 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 3: slightly more recent versions of that in the US. So 305 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 3: the workmen's circle now the workers circle, they funded really 306 00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 3: wonderful culture programs, including libraries. Unions often had libraries, especially 307 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 3: back when they used to have more buildings, like my union. 308 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 3: I'm part of my union, and aside from just like 309 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:42,960 Speaker 3: being where I work, we don't necessarily have a building 310 00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 3: per se. Yeah, So those things have always existed, especially 311 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 3: in the workmen's circle in ethnic communities who were trying 312 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 3: to preserve a culture. And that's something that fit into 313 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 3: twentieth century capitalism. And so if we go farther than 314 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 3: the revolution, I read a really great pamphlet recently from 315 00:16:01,200 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 3: the seventies, actually that was from the UK, and it 316 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,560 Speaker 3: kind of discussed libraries. You know, if we make it 317 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:09,400 Speaker 3: through the revolution a little bit as being operated as 318 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:16,160 Speaker 3: under a syndicalist model where workers and patrons is what 319 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 3: we call them now that wouldn't be quite quite that split, 320 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 3: then would be able to govern and run these libraries. 321 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 3: And there was a really great diagram. So there's definitely 322 00:16:25,120 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 3: been ideas for a long time about what this could 323 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 3: look like. 324 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I guess in the collectivised economy 325 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,600 Speaker 2: of revolutionary Barcelona, library still existed at the nails existed, 326 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 2: and I'm sure it was a long a syndicalist model 327 00:16:36,360 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 2: because everything was so Yeah, I think that's like a 328 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 2: good thing for people to look towards. I want to 329 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: stop and take one more break, and then I want 330 00:16:45,800 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 2: to talk about what people can do to protect libraries. 331 00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 2: All Right, we are back so currently, Like I mean, 332 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 2: this is like a funding cliff for the library system, right, 333 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 2: I suppose It's hard to say, but like, how long 334 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: would it take before people stop seeing these services if 335 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,400 Speaker 2: doge was to start doging tomorrow? 336 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 3: I honestly can't tell, you know, I think that people 337 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 3: really not doesn't It's hard to say now, right, because 338 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 3: we do have the funding there, it just will it 339 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 3: actually happen? Will the thing happen? Yeah, that has already 340 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,399 Speaker 3: been allocated. I think we have a little bit of time, 341 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 3: but I would expect if that congressional isn't expressed that, 342 00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,440 Speaker 3: especially when summer reading rolls around, will really start to 343 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:40,200 Speaker 3: see it, because that's something that a lot of people 344 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,680 Speaker 3: depend on to keep their kids occupied during the summer. Yeah, 345 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 3: and especially out you know, in in red states and 346 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 3: rural areas. It's going to be very much like the 347 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 3: I never thought the leopards were going to eat my face. 348 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, kind of situation which is sad, like because 349 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: it's someone's kid who doesn't get to go to the 350 00:17:58,359 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 2: library very often, right right, right. 351 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 3: That sucks, you know, because it's going to be a 352 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:07,040 Speaker 3: lot of a lot of kids, especially without those resources. 353 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think about like how like I wouldn't have 354 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:15,159 Speaker 2: survived my undergraduate without libraries book on my grad school 355 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 2: books are super expensive, especially academic books, and like I 356 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 2: relied very heavily on interlibrary loan. 357 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. And this is you know, at the university level, 358 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:26,280 Speaker 3: to be sure, where books are very expensive. Yeah, but 359 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: at the public and school library level, you know, this 360 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 3: is exactly why this is happening, is because there is 361 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:34,960 Speaker 3: this ongoing narrative from the last few decades where where people, 362 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 3: especially like queer kids, say that the library save their lives. Yeah, 363 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:40,920 Speaker 3: young people of color saying like this is the only 364 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 3: place I could see myself in culture by reading these books. 365 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 3: So of course, of course this is happening because that 366 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,159 Speaker 3: you know, they want to take that away. 367 00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, because it's a place where people can 368 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,600 Speaker 2: kind of exist yeah without that. Yeah, So let's talk about, 369 00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,199 Speaker 2: like how can people engage to protect their libraries, What 370 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 2: can they do what I like, some action items they 371 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 2: can take. 372 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:05,679 Speaker 3: I unfortunately don't have great news. I don't think, you know, 373 00:19:05,840 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 3: because of the way this is working, and it is 374 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 3: so much about just like raw brute power that no 375 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 3: one at the federal government or even state governments for 376 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 3: the most part, seems to be able to counter. It's 377 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,200 Speaker 3: just like not something they can conceive of because they 378 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 3: already are doing things that supposedly shouldn't be allowed. Right, 379 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 3: We've already had the congressional funding. This should have a 380 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 3: congressional you know, this is passed by Congress, and yet 381 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:30,840 Speaker 3: an executive order and Elon Muskin undo it. Right, if 382 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 3: things were working, this wouldn't be happening. So we are 383 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,719 Speaker 3: really kind of down down the line a little bit 384 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 3: in what we can do and how effective it's going 385 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 3: to be. That said, there are things we can do. 386 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 3: A lot of them are the things that liberals usually do, 387 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: which is like calling your senator over and over and 388 00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,880 Speaker 3: over again every day, and your representatives and your state 389 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 3: or state government too to make sure that your state 390 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 3: government is paying attention to what they're going to lose. 391 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:01,919 Speaker 3: There is certainly, you know, things one can sign on 392 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,440 Speaker 3: to for major library organizations, the ALA has been writing 393 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 3: a lot and less formal organizations than that. I think 394 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 3: one thing that we can always be doing, not just 395 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 3: in the situation, but if you want to be supporting libraries, 396 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:16,359 Speaker 3: one of the best thing and easiest things you can 397 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 3: do is go get a library card if you don't 398 00:20:18,320 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 3: already have one, and use your damn library. There's probably 399 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 3: something there that you want and that actually really does help. 400 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 3: Because libraries, whether it's with something like IMLS, or whether 401 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:33,639 Speaker 3: it's grants from foundations and or local funders, you know, 402 00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 3: their local government are better able to make their argument 403 00:20:37,480 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 3: for why they should be given money if they have 404 00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 3: good statistics to say, we had ten percent more readers 405 00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 3: this year. You know, the number of books we loan 406 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:47,879 Speaker 3: this year is higher than it's ever been. People are 407 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,480 Speaker 3: coming to our events and droves. That kind of you know, 408 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 3: success breeds success. If they can show that to potential funders, 409 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 3: they're more likely to get money. So don't don't get 410 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 3: about through the book. Just check the book out. Keep 411 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 3: before we can give it back. You know, have time 412 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 3: make those numbers go up. 413 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And you can even like let's say you're 414 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: not inclined to go to the library, for whatever reason 415 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 2: and you don't like going out or worried about COVID 416 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:16,239 Speaker 2: or something like. You can do most of this online, right, Like, 417 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 2: if you have Libby, you can certainly you can borrow books. 418 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 3: You can borrow ebooks and audiobooks from Libby. Some libraries 419 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,600 Speaker 3: have streaming movies. A lot of libraries have still either 420 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 3: all online or hybrid events that you can watch rather 421 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 3: than having to go to the event of the library. 422 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,920 Speaker 3: You know. The one thing about about some of those 423 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: streaming services and Libby that I will caution about is 424 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 3: that your data is less secure. If that's something you're 425 00:21:40,080 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 3: concerned about, then it would be borrowing paper books. Because 426 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:46,840 Speaker 3: most libraries, even in the kind of tech dystopian future 427 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 3: we live in, do a decent job or at least 428 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 3: try to be good about your borrowing data when you 429 00:21:53,560 --> 00:21:58,679 Speaker 3: borrow hard copies. But because things like Libby and the 430 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 3: streaming services are third party integrations, those collect some amount 431 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,400 Speaker 3: of use data. So it's absolutely great to use those. 432 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 3: But I would caution that if if you are a 433 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 3: person who has a very high front model and you 434 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,960 Speaker 3: want to be careful about your data, go for the paper. 435 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,160 Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, it's kind nicer, nicer experience to read 436 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 2: a paper book as well. It is what about like 437 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:22,840 Speaker 2: if people I know lots of people who are librarians, listen, 438 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 2: say email me, Like is their way that they can organize? 439 00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 2: Who is the way the people are organizing, either to 440 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 2: prevent this or like as a way of harm reduction, right, like, 441 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 2: as a way of reducing the damage to the state 442 00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 2: can do to people's access to learning. Yeah. 443 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 3: So there are a few more radical organizations that I 444 00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 3: think are worth paying attention to. My favorite is Library 445 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:49,080 Speaker 3: Freedom Project. They're really wonderful, okay, and more willing to 446 00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 3: say the thing without bullshit. Yeah, the thing that you know, 447 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,199 Speaker 3: I would obviously urge every worker to do this, But 448 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,240 Speaker 3: if you're if your workplace is not unionized, start working 449 00:22:58,280 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 3: on that. Yeah, that will always give you more power, 450 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 3: So you should. You should start trying to organize your workplace. 451 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely. Hopefully hopefully there's still time for people to 452 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 2: do that. 453 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, who knows where that's going to go, but you 454 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 3: can at least try. It's still legal now. 455 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, right when it starts, and like, regardless of what happens, like, 456 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,960 Speaker 2: we're stronger in this together than we are a part 457 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,560 Speaker 2: and the unions have done a lot to prevent fascism in. 458 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 3: The past, and similarly, there are depending upon what state 459 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:30,680 Speaker 3: you live in, there might be a state library organization 460 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 3: that is active, and that would be just a good 461 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 3: way to make connections with other libraries near you and 462 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,120 Speaker 3: their librarians, and you know, maybe if you do lose 463 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 3: some of your funding, you can put your heads together 464 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 3: and you know, use each other's resources and have joint 465 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:46,640 Speaker 3: programming and things like that. 466 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 2: That makes sense. Are people like attempting so some of 467 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:52,000 Speaker 2: the stuff I m a lesser is like online archives. 468 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 2: Are people attempting to somehow to download that in order 469 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,199 Speaker 2: to preserve it in the event that it goes away? 470 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 2: I don't know that that's really Is that not what's 471 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:02,879 Speaker 2: a threat? 472 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,719 Speaker 3: That's not really what we Yeah, I think that there 473 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,119 Speaker 3: are other kind of data rescue projects with the federal 474 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 3: government that have better data than that. IMLS doesn't gay 475 00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 3: that much data, so I wouldn't be too concerned with that. 476 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 2: Okay, So it's more like along the workplace organizing. 477 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 3: Side, Yeah, it's definitely like trying to figure out to 478 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 3: make how to make your and the libraries around you 479 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 3: keep going and offering the things yea to your communities 480 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 3: that they've been offering. 481 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, it would be pretty tragic. Like there's a 482 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: library not so far from my house, Like I can 483 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,399 Speaker 2: ren my bike, do it. I get it all the time, 484 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 2: and it would be really tragic to be without that. Yeah, 485 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 2: So yeah, please continue to organize your libraries. Is there 486 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: anything else that you'd like to plug or suggest people? Like, 487 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:48,639 Speaker 2: it's a pretty bleak time generally, and I think a 488 00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 2: lot of us take refuge, especially in reading actually, like 489 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:55,000 Speaker 2: it's a way you can escape terrible things. Like is 490 00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 2: there anything else you'd like to kind of suggest for 491 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:00,439 Speaker 2: people as we dive deeper into fascism every day at 492 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 2: the moment. 493 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 3: I think in libraries and elsewhere where, it's just being 494 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 3: able to offer a counter narrative, like not buying into 495 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,359 Speaker 3: the idea that the library is a money hole. You know, yeah, 496 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 3: it can only be valued monetarily. So when you hear that, 497 00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:21,760 Speaker 3: maybe start going to your library's board meetings and when 498 00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 3: you hear those kinds of things said, get online for 499 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 3: the comments and offer a different narrative. And you can 500 00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 3: do that all over your life in different in different ways. 501 00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 3: When you hear that narrative that is monetary and neoliberal 502 00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,240 Speaker 3: and harmful offer a different one. 503 00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's really good. Like, it's so sad 504 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 2: to think that we should have to quantify the value 505 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 2: of everything monetarity, but especially something like a library, Like 506 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 2: so many people have had such positive engagements with them 507 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,200 Speaker 2: which have nothing to do with the cash. Next this 508 00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 2: sort of like generating revenue and that's what makes them 509 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: valuable and what makes them special sometimes. So yeah, hopefully people, 510 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 2: hopefully people can advocate for that. How would you find 511 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:03,640 Speaker 2: your library board meeting if you wanted to look? 512 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 3: If you your library, if you have a public library 513 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 3: near you, they should have a website and the website 514 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 3: should have an events page that includes board meetings hopefully 515 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 3: other information about your library's board as well. And if 516 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 3: you can't find it, maybe call it the library and ask. 517 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 3: I'll probably just tell you they're really good at information there. 518 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that is the thing that they do. All right, Well, 519 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us, Jammie. That was great, 520 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: It was really really helpful. 521 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 3: Thanks for having me. It could happen. 522 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 1: Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more 523 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website. Coolzonemedia dot 524 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 1: com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 525 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find 526 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,000 Speaker 1: sources for it could happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions. 527 00:26:49,320 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening.