WEBVTT - After The Builders: On Musk and Thiel 0:00:16.070 --> 0:00:18.130 Welcome to Tech Stuff. I'm Oswald Losch and we've got 0:00:18.150 --> 0:00:22.550 a special episode today. Kaleidoscope, the podcast network I co-founded, 0:00:22.610 --> 0:00:25.150 has a new podcast out this week called The Builders 0:00:25.329 --> 0:00:27.970 with Walter Isaacson. So I wanted to bring on my 0:00:28.010 --> 0:00:31.810 co-founder Mangesh Hatikada to talk about what motivated the project 0:00:31.990 --> 0:00:34.450 and then share some clips from the first two episodes. 0:00:34.950 --> 0:00:38.270 Interviews with Elon Musk and Peter Thiel, two figures we 0:00:38.290 --> 0:00:40.729 talk about fairly frequently on the podcast and who don't 0:00:40.790 --> 0:00:43.760 do sit down interviews all that often. Joining us to 0:00:43.780 --> 0:00:47.060 break the interviews down are two of the foremost journalists 0:00:47.270 --> 0:00:51.330 and chroniclers of Musk and Thiel. Max Chafkin, a Bloomberg 0:00:51.350 --> 0:00:54.750 Businessweek columnist and author of The Contrarian, Peter Thiel and 0:00:54.770 --> 0:00:58.050 the Rise of the Silicon Valley Oligarchs. And Fez Siddiqui, 0:00:58.370 --> 0:01:01.090 a technology reporter for The Washington Post and author of 0:01:01.170 --> 0:01:04.670 Hubris Maximus, The Shattering of Elon Musk. Welcome both. 0:01:05.060 --> 0:01:05.869 Hey, thanks for having me. 0:01:06.040 --> 0:01:06.380 Hey. 0:01:06.900 --> 0:01:08.880 Thank you for joining us. Before we get into it, 0:01:09.030 --> 0:01:10.290 I'd love to hear a little bit from both of 0:01:10.310 --> 0:01:13.090 you about your reporting on these two figures. Max, maybe 0:01:13.110 --> 0:01:15.990 let's start with you. Having written the book on Teal, 0:01:16.470 --> 0:01:18.070 what's your biggest open question about him? 0:01:18.450 --> 0:01:20.850 I think the big open question on Teal, Teal has 0:01:20.930 --> 0:01:24.990 been around the world of tech, you know, from before 0:01:25.010 --> 0:01:29.949 the time I became a tech journalist, which was around 2005, 2006. 0:01:29.950 --> 0:01:34.160 But for most of my career, Teal was sort of 0:01:34.300 --> 0:01:38.319 making all of these long shot bets to create this 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.080 kind of way out there view of the world, a 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:43.820 way out there view of the world on a political 0:01:43.860 --> 0:01:46.750 dimension as well as a technology dimension. And I think 0:01:46.810 --> 0:01:51.190 the big open question to me after many of these 0:01:51.590 --> 0:01:55.050 kind of out there projects have really paid off, Palantir 0:01:55.270 --> 0:01:58.880 being probably the most notable one, but also Teal had 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.820 a hand in SpaceX, some of Elon Musk's companies, as 0:02:01.860 --> 0:02:04.740 well as Facebook. these are now like the biggest and 0:02:04.780 --> 0:02:08.320 most powerful companies in the world. Teal was also notable 0:02:08.419 --> 0:02:11.140 as like an early supporter of Donald Trump as kind 0:02:11.180 --> 0:02:14.210 of a pioneer of the effort to bring Silicon Valley, 0:02:14.220 --> 0:02:18.489 you know, closer to the American right wing. It's like 0:02:18.590 --> 0:02:20.730 all that has happened. And so part of the big 0:02:20.790 --> 0:02:23.269 question I have is like, what does he want now? 0:02:23.450 --> 0:02:26.210 I mean, and where is he now, given that he 0:02:26.250 --> 0:02:30.580 has gone from being this outsider to being in a 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:32.240 position of incredible power? 0:02:32.990 --> 0:02:35.270 Very interesting question. And Fez, what about you? I mean, 0:02:35.290 --> 0:02:37.870 you wrote the book on Elon. What's your biggest open 0:02:37.889 --> 0:02:38.510 question about him? 0:02:38.970 --> 0:02:43.160 What does he ultimately want out of this? You know, 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:47.040 he's the world's richest person. He controls the world's most 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.720 valuable automaker. He controls a company that is at the 0:02:49.780 --> 0:02:55.179 forefront of space exploration, of social media, the dominant platform 0:02:55.200 --> 0:02:59.760 for political discourse. He is controlling, you know, one aspect 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:03.419 of that firm that is heavily focused on artificial intelligence bets. 0:03:03.940 --> 0:03:07.680 And yet he's so full of grievance. He is so 0:03:08.380 --> 0:03:12.120 seemingly still angry, still has that sort of underdog mentality, 0:03:12.180 --> 0:03:16.040 feels like it's him versus the world. What does he want? 0:03:16.100 --> 0:03:19.090 And the book seeks to explore that question and also 0:03:19.150 --> 0:03:21.970 examines the forces that allowed him to accumulate so much power. 0:03:22.639 --> 0:03:24.060 I think that's, I mean, we'll get to the interviews, 0:03:24.080 --> 0:03:26.419 but I think that's something that shines through kind of 0:03:26.460 --> 0:03:27.919 in both of them, which is that these are two 0:03:27.980 --> 0:03:33.180 people who basically achieved almost everything beyond their wildest dreams 0:03:33.220 --> 0:03:35.520 they set out to achieve, and yet still find a 0:03:35.580 --> 0:03:38.160 way to be motivated by the sense of being an underdog, 0:03:38.180 --> 0:03:40.600 which is kind of extraordinary. And just, I mean, just 0:03:40.620 --> 0:03:42.220 to give a little more context on the builders, I 0:03:42.260 --> 0:03:45.370 started my career as a producer for Charlie Rose and 0:03:45.490 --> 0:03:48.530 was kind of, grew up with the idea that these 0:03:48.590 --> 0:03:53.040 kind of, interviews with historical figures in real time could 0:03:53.140 --> 0:03:57.120 kind of become interesting, like documentary evidence, both for the 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:00.180 moment and for the future. And so we approached Walter 0:04:00.260 --> 0:04:02.750 and said, you know, you have this sort of extraordinary 0:04:02.780 --> 0:04:06.010 ability to drive FOMO amongst the people in the world 0:04:06.050 --> 0:04:09.230 who can have everything else. But sitting with you and 0:04:09.310 --> 0:04:13.050 being kind of part of the Walter Isaacson, Da Vinci, Einstein, 0:04:13.470 --> 0:04:16.589 Musk jobs legacy is incredibly compelling. So You know, we 0:04:16.610 --> 0:04:18.050 think we have a real chance of getting all these 0:04:18.070 --> 0:04:19.589 people to sit down with you and perhaps do it 0:04:20.029 --> 0:04:22.089 in a way and in a tone which you don't 0:04:22.110 --> 0:04:24.690 often hear them speaking in. But Mangesh, I mean, tell 0:04:24.710 --> 0:04:27.560 us a bit more about the inside baseball and what 0:04:27.580 --> 0:04:29.580 it was like to actually book these guys. I mean, 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:31.320 what it was like to get Elon to do this. 0:04:31.880 --> 0:04:35.300 Yeah, I mean, we really wanted to figure out whose imagination... 0:04:35.230 --> 0:04:37.560 we're going to be living in right and and collecting 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.539 these thoughts from from the biggest tech geniuses leaders uh 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:45.140 influencers of our time and uh we had thought that 0:04:45.310 --> 0:04:47.909 walter having written the elon book that that that would 0:04:47.950 --> 0:04:50.670 be an easy ask and and probably an easy get 0:04:50.710 --> 0:04:53.310 from the start but um we got a lot of 0:04:53.370 --> 0:04:57.270 no's from him. We had approached him first. Walter approached him. 0:04:57.750 --> 0:04:59.340 And it had been sort of the better part of 0:04:59.380 --> 0:05:01.260 a year. And he'd said no. And so we were 0:05:01.300 --> 0:05:03.680 moving along with the other interviews. And I really didn't 0:05:03.700 --> 0:05:06.360 think it was going to happen. And then it's funny 0:05:06.380 --> 0:05:10.039 because the timing is so strange. My cousin told me, like, 0:05:10.060 --> 0:05:11.480 let's go to a World Cup game. He had an 0:05:11.520 --> 0:05:14.720 extra ticket. So I went to this France-Sweden game. And, 0:05:14.860 --> 0:05:18.040 you know, these moments in sports when like something extraordinary 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.120 is happening, you feel like you're watching a no-hitter or 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:23.630 you feel like someone has a hot hand. And Mbappe 0:05:23.670 --> 0:05:27.930 gets the ball and he's just like cutting through four people. 0:05:27.950 --> 0:05:31.410 And Walter Isaacson calls me. And Walter doesn't call me. 0:05:31.710 --> 0:05:34.810 He normally texts. And so I put on silence immediately 0:05:34.830 --> 0:05:36.510 because I'm watching this moment and I'm like, oh, wait, 0:05:36.529 --> 0:05:39.750 maybe it's something important. And right as Mbappe has cut 0:05:39.770 --> 0:05:42.090 through all these people, shoots the goal, I look at 0:05:42.150 --> 0:05:43.630 my phone and it says. 0:05:43.610 --> 0:05:44.390 Elon is in. 0:05:44.410 --> 0:05:48.390 And so... You know, we got Musk to say yes. 0:05:48.490 --> 0:05:53.240 We'd set up the cameras, etc. And Walter's sort of 0:05:53.300 --> 0:05:55.960 twiddling his thumbs. And the interview's supposed to start. And 0:05:56.540 --> 0:05:59.540 he's not getting on. He's not getting on. And David, 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.670 one of our colleagues, looks and he realizes, like, Musk's 0:06:03.690 --> 0:06:08.070 just been tweeting. And that's what gets him away. But 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.860 then they get on the riverside and they're just so 0:06:11.460 --> 0:06:14.000 comfortable with one another that that sort of intimacy was 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:15.800 really interesting to see. And the way he opened up 0:06:15.860 --> 0:06:19.000 about Trump and getting carried away and things weren't things 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:20.320 that I was expecting him to say. 0:06:20.350 --> 0:06:21.830 So we're going to go to some clips for the 0:06:21.850 --> 0:06:25.969 interview shortly. But first, Max and Fez, what's the context 0:06:26.050 --> 0:06:27.870 we need to know here? It's been obviously a huge 0:06:27.930 --> 0:06:31.039 week for Elon, Fez, you're on deadline for good reason, 0:06:31.100 --> 0:06:33.000 no doubt. But can you just give us the breakdown 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:36.860 between the Gibney dock, between Starlink, between the midterms? What's 0:06:36.940 --> 0:06:38.560 the moment in Musk land? 0:06:38.900 --> 0:06:41.000 It's just one of those moments where you feel like 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.469 there are times when there is, I've described it as 0:06:43.570 --> 0:06:47.029 quiet or really disquiet in Musk world. And then the 0:06:47.250 --> 0:06:50.450 complete opposite happens where just everything seems to be happening 0:06:50.470 --> 0:06:54.290 all at once. You mentioned the four-hour-long documentary that has 0:06:54.350 --> 0:06:58.250 dropped examining Elon Musk. There was also a great Wall 0:06:58.270 --> 0:07:02.790 Street Journal scoop on Elon Musk seemingly unilaterally slowing down Starlink, 0:07:03.050 --> 0:07:07.440 according to the journal, in response to what he saw 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:13.220 as Ukrainian offensive use of this technology, which is intended 0:07:13.300 --> 0:07:17.390 for defensive use, if I'm reading between the lines correctly 0:07:17.410 --> 0:07:20.470 on Elon. But He sort of argues that there is 0:07:20.510 --> 0:07:24.090 a system called Starshield that is for those sorts of 0:07:24.130 --> 0:07:26.500 military purposes that is in the control of the U.S. government. 0:07:27.900 --> 0:07:31.140 In any case, the Journal reports that Musk has slowed 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:35.790 down Starlink use on the Ukrainian front. Also this week, 0:07:35.990 --> 0:07:39.930 SpaceX earnings, Tesla earnings, so two major big milestone for 0:07:39.970 --> 0:07:42.250 SpaceX in that it, you know, turns it turns its 0:07:42.270 --> 0:07:46.230 first ever profit, at least since going public. Meanwhile, Musk 0:07:46.490 --> 0:07:51.020 is tweeting up a storm about the midterms and, you know, 0:07:51.040 --> 0:07:54.420 the potential for him to be investigated after the midterms. 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:56.300 So just a lot going on in his world. 0:07:56.980 --> 0:08:00.440 So one that that last point, I think, is very important. 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.830 You know, this the idea that Musk left politics is funny. 0:08:05.130 --> 0:08:07.630 You know, a year ago or whatever it was a 0:08:07.650 --> 0:08:12.210 little over a year ago, You know, Musk gave up 0:08:12.250 --> 0:08:15.150 his position in the White House and left in this 0:08:15.250 --> 0:08:18.350 blaze of glory. I don't know if it's glory, maybe infamy, 0:08:18.940 --> 0:08:22.860 hurling insults. There were mutual recriminations. And within a couple 0:08:22.900 --> 0:08:25.680 of months, they were right back together. And they are 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:30.100 as back together now. I mean, Musk is less central. 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:35.610 You don't see the kind of PDA level affection that 0:08:35.890 --> 0:08:39.219 maybe we saw during the 2024 campaign. But Musk is, 0:08:39.780 --> 0:08:45.020 you know, is donating record-breaking sums to the Republicans right now. 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:49.040 If somehow Ken Paxton manages to win the seat in 0:08:49.080 --> 0:08:52.640 Texas and Republicans hold off the Democrats, it will be 0:08:52.660 --> 0:08:57.110 thanks to Elon Musk, I think. And conversely, if Democrats 0:08:57.130 --> 0:09:00.390 do well, we're going to spend two years watching them 0:09:00.929 --> 0:09:05.650 basically rake him over the coals and potentially longer, depending 0:09:05.670 --> 0:09:09.480 on what happens in 2028. he has made himself a 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:13.140 central figure in Republican politics for a very long time. 0:09:13.620 --> 0:09:15.750 I mean, all of what you say is true. And 0:09:15.790 --> 0:09:17.890 it's somewhat surprising that Elon said in the interview on 0:09:17.910 --> 0:09:21.110 The Builders that he actually regretted some of his involvement 0:09:21.130 --> 0:09:22.970 in politics. We're going to go there in a second. 0:09:22.990 --> 0:09:25.170 But first, before they have to ask you both about 0:09:25.190 --> 0:09:27.010 the roadster. Underwhelmed. 0:09:27.190 --> 0:09:27.829 I'm sorry. 0:09:27.950 --> 0:09:31.810 But, you know, I think it's, I mean, my understanding 0:09:31.929 --> 0:09:35.420 is that, um, there wasn't, we didn't really see any 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:38.800 new technology here. What we saw was like an awesome 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:44.220 kind of like evil Knievel style pitch, but it's, it's 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.030 weirdly a pitch for a car that does not exist 0:09:47.490 --> 0:09:51.109 in the sense that you can't buy it. And even if, even, 0:09:51.130 --> 0:09:53.410 and even if you follow like the Elon Musk timeline, 0:09:53.429 --> 0:09:54.969 which is like, oh, we're going to start producing it 0:09:55.270 --> 0:09:57.730 in 2028, you're not going to be able to drive it. 0:09:58.170 --> 0:10:01.100 And so what I think it's actually a pitch for, 0:10:01.860 --> 0:10:04.360 and this gets to a lot of what is happening 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:07.240 and what has been happening with Elon Musk in recent years, 0:10:07.640 --> 0:10:11.920 it's a pitch for the stock. It's like a memification 0:10:12.330 --> 0:10:15.010 of this guy. And at a certain point, there is 0:10:15.070 --> 0:10:17.530 Elon Musk, the technologist, and there is Elon Musk, the meme. 0:10:17.900 --> 0:10:21.000 And it's become harder and harder to distinguish those two things. 0:10:21.500 --> 0:10:23.040 I think that was well said. I mean, it was 0:10:23.080 --> 0:10:25.260 pretty clear to me what was going to happen when 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:27.100 we saw this demo. Like, it's the kind of thing 0:10:27.140 --> 0:10:30.260 that I watch and, you know, reporters are naturally skeptical 0:10:30.340 --> 0:10:32.140 and they they know a dog and pony show when 0:10:32.179 --> 0:10:35.640 they see it. But I see this thing and I'm like, oh, OK, 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:37.240 this is going to be a thing. People are going 0:10:37.260 --> 0:10:40.160 to notice this. It's a flying car. And then it 0:10:40.260 --> 0:10:42.480 sort of becomes clear as you go frame by frame, 0:10:42.660 --> 0:10:45.120 like you're kind of like, what am I looking at? 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:47.470 Like when I really inspect the underside of this thing, 0:10:47.610 --> 0:10:50.810 what What is in that thing? And like, how does 0:10:50.850 --> 0:10:54.010 it correlate to what a customer might receive a year 0:10:54.050 --> 0:10:56.480 from now or two years from now? And second, I 0:10:56.500 --> 0:10:58.620 made this point on a different podcast. It's sort of 0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:03.179 like this question of, OK, it's a supercar. Also, it 0:11:03.260 --> 0:11:05.959 maybe flies. It has rockets. Call it a gimmick, whatever 0:11:05.980 --> 0:11:08.380 it is. Aren't you kind of building the equivalent of 0:11:08.420 --> 0:11:10.890 like an amphibious car where it's like not a great car, 0:11:10.950 --> 0:11:13.590 not a great boat? Like, is this really what people 0:11:14.290 --> 0:11:17.190 people who want a supercar want or people who want 0:11:17.210 --> 0:11:20.550 a flying car want? And lastly, I'll note, it didn't 0:11:21.090 --> 0:11:24.630 really register in Tesla earnings. There's an hour long earnings call. 0:11:24.850 --> 0:11:27.770 And there just was very little, you know, the only 0:11:27.830 --> 0:11:30.450 way it did register was it was like the backdrop. 0:11:30.570 --> 0:11:33.990 It was like the photo that they showed for that call. 0:11:34.030 --> 0:11:37.050 But it's not like investors and analysts were clamoring for 0:11:37.270 --> 0:11:40.100 details on this. And Tesla was touting like, you know, 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:41.750 record reservations. 0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:42.220 It wasn't. 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:44.840 And I was just shocked at how quickly that excitement 0:11:44.860 --> 0:11:45.380 sort of faded. 0:11:45.890 --> 0:11:48.470 I think Elon recently said, a friend of mine, Peter Thiel, 0:11:48.570 --> 0:11:50.910 once said, the future promised us flying cars, but instead 0:11:50.929 --> 0:11:53.490 we've got 140 characters. Well, not anymore. 0:11:53.510 --> 0:11:57.900 That is what he said. And it was just sort of, 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.800 you know, I hate to be the person to pour 0:12:00.820 --> 0:12:05.300 cold water on it, but it didn't definitively answer that question. 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:06.660 It didn't put that question to rest. 0:12:06.700 --> 0:12:09.300 Yeah, well, you can have more than 140 characters, though. 0:12:09.340 --> 0:12:10.780 Elon Musk has, in. 0:12:10.720 --> 0:12:15.030 Taking over Twitter, he has changed that. So credit where due. 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:20.500 Well, it's an amazingly self-referential post, isn't it, from the 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:22.900 owner of X. But let's play the first clip about 0:12:23.020 --> 0:12:27.150 Elon's mantra, which coming back to this kind of overarching question, 0:12:27.270 --> 0:12:30.070 whose imagination do you want to live in? Here is 0:12:30.150 --> 0:12:33.970 Walter asking Elon about what type of AI he thinks 0:12:33.990 --> 0:12:35.490 humanity should be building. 0:12:36.250 --> 0:12:41.120 And if you make it maximally truth-seeking and curious, like 0:12:41.140 --> 0:12:43.900 you say, I don't quite get it. Why does that 0:12:43.960 --> 0:12:44.660 make it safer? 0:12:45.490 --> 0:12:48.730 Well, um, if you're forcing AI to believe two mutually 0:12:48.770 --> 0:12:52.880 consistent things, you can, you can make it go insane. Um, and, 0:12:52.990 --> 0:12:56.250 and an insane AI, I think is not a safe one. Um, 0:12:56.750 --> 0:13:01.449 then curious, I think is important because, um, a curious AI, 0:13:01.470 --> 0:13:04.170 I think is going to want to foster humanity to 0:13:04.250 --> 0:13:08.380 see how we turn out. So like what happens to, uh, 0:13:08.660 --> 0:13:11.800 to a humanity that is, uh, that, that prospers and 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:16.530 is becomes multi-planetary and, uh, I think a curious AI 0:13:16.570 --> 0:13:20.690 will want to foster humanity. Because a future where there 0:13:20.750 --> 0:13:24.350 are humans on multiple planets is more interesting than one 0:13:24.850 --> 0:13:27.270 where there are not any humans on the planets. 0:13:27.730 --> 0:13:30.870 So the most interesting outcome is the most likely? Yes. 0:13:31.530 --> 0:13:33.990 Well, generally I think that's true for a different reason, 0:13:34.010 --> 0:13:37.710 which is that if simulation theory is correct, then any 0:13:37.750 --> 0:13:40.720 simulations that are boring will be truncated. Therefore, the fact 0:13:40.750 --> 0:13:44.160 that we exist means that we are an interesting simulation. 0:13:44.830 --> 0:13:48.880 And really, the most important thing is just don't be boring. 0:13:49.740 --> 0:13:52.540 This has explained you a bit. You're on a crusade 0:13:52.580 --> 0:13:53.540 against being boring. 0:13:55.500 --> 0:14:00.050 I don't know. I mean, there's odd things that happen 0:14:00.110 --> 0:14:03.189 in this simulation, especially if you're me. I mean, think 0:14:03.210 --> 0:14:06.490 about it. If you're me and you're like, should all 0:14:06.530 --> 0:14:10.240 these things really be happening? I mean, should I really 0:14:10.270 --> 0:14:14.650 be making spaceships to go to the moon and Mars? Like, 0:14:14.830 --> 0:14:16.510 what the? That doesn't seem real. 0:14:17.210 --> 0:14:20.470 Fez, I'm curious. What do you make of this? 0:14:21.530 --> 0:14:25.560 I mean, it was a classic Elon, what should we 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.840 call that? You know, I don't know, train of thought. 0:14:28.620 --> 0:14:32.660 It felt sort of like he was answering a question 0:14:32.700 --> 0:14:37.000 that Isaacson didn't really ask. He just sort of was 0:14:37.290 --> 0:14:40.370 free associating there at the end. But they are coherent thoughts. 0:14:41.500 --> 0:14:43.940 unrelated to the question, which is how does this make 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:49.560 us safer, right? They end up on this idea that, 0:14:49.640 --> 0:14:52.520 you know, Isaacson is channeling Elon. He definitely knows the 0:14:52.560 --> 0:14:54.540 answer to the question that he's asking, like, so the 0:14:54.760 --> 0:14:57.000 most interesting outcome is the most likely. That's just sort 0:14:57.020 --> 0:15:01.420 of like a classic Elon perspective. But it doesn't really, 0:15:01.500 --> 0:15:03.180 I don't know, it sort of felt like a tangent 0:15:03.230 --> 0:15:04.760 or like free association in the end. 0:15:05.430 --> 0:15:05.670 Max? 0:15:06.190 --> 0:15:09.250 Yeah, I agree with everything Fez just said, but I 0:15:09.290 --> 0:15:13.470 do think that Leaving aside the kind of like philosophical, 0:15:13.490 --> 0:15:16.750 you know, this this this thing he's interested in simulation theory, 0:15:16.770 --> 0:15:20.100 which comes up all the time. His idea of like 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.580 not being boring and which I which, you know, he 0:15:23.600 --> 0:15:26.040 didn't quite articulate it, but he kind of almost did, 0:15:26.060 --> 0:15:30.850 I think, is like central to to to his rise 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:32.570 and to one of the ways that he's made himself 0:15:32.630 --> 0:15:38.040 like an appealing figure. in people's lives. It's a big 0:15:38.140 --> 0:15:41.760 source of his power. People talk about Elon Musk, the technologist, 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:49.490 but he's an amazing marketer. And that idea of being unafraid. 0:15:49.150 --> 0:15:51.230 To be weird or. 0:15:51.530 --> 0:15:54.920 Self-referential or kind of go on a slightly like bong 0:15:54.980 --> 0:15:58.940 hit style free associating, like, what if it's all, what 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:01.220 if this is all a dream and somebody else, you know, 0:16:01.420 --> 0:16:03.540 that is, that's interesting. 0:16:03.700 --> 0:16:05.720 And, and it makes him different. 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:08.280 And it's, it's some of that difference is what has 0:16:08.320 --> 0:16:12.229 allowed him to get this like massive following of people who, 0:16:12.510 --> 0:16:13.810 who basically hang on his every word. 0:16:14.330 --> 0:16:17.570 You know, I, I definitely don't count myself among that number, 0:16:17.590 --> 0:16:20.370 but I have to say when he asked that rhetorical question, like, 0:16:20.870 --> 0:16:23.530 should all this stuff really be happening? Should one person 0:16:23.570 --> 0:16:25.150 be able to do all this? I mean, maybe think 0:16:25.170 --> 0:16:27.210 a little bit of the title of your book, Fez, 0:16:27.450 --> 0:16:30.000 you know, Hubris Maximus. But I mean, it is kind of, 0:16:30.290 --> 0:16:33.330 it is just weird. I mean, we live in weird times. 0:16:33.510 --> 0:16:35.430 And I think Elon is very symbolic of that. 0:16:36.170 --> 0:16:40.380 Yeah, I mean, I think he has created an environment where, 0:16:40.520 --> 0:16:44.580 you know, he is uniquely equipped to pursue all of 0:16:44.660 --> 0:16:47.300 these bets at once. There's an anecdote in the book where, 0:16:47.340 --> 0:16:49.960 you know, someone pulls him aside and asks him, you know, 0:16:50.530 --> 0:16:55.270 humanity is going to almost certainly going to progress like 0:16:55.290 --> 0:16:58.150 beyond where we are now in hundreds or even thousands 0:16:58.190 --> 0:17:01.470 of years. You know, why go to Mars now? We 0:17:01.490 --> 0:17:03.610 don't necessarily need to do it right now if we 0:17:03.670 --> 0:17:09.360 understand that humanity will progress. And according to my reporting, 0:17:09.380 --> 0:17:12.560 Elon's reaction to that is yes, but I want to 0:17:12.600 --> 0:17:16.100 be the one to do it. And so he is 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:20.850 sort of created this problem for himself that he is 0:17:21.190 --> 0:17:24.930 obviously very like incredulous over. He's like, how did this 0:17:25.010 --> 0:17:27.800 end up being the case? How did I end up here? And, 0:17:27.890 --> 0:17:30.600 you know, it must be it reminds me of his reaction, 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:34.580 I think, to becoming the world's richest person, which was incredulity. 0:17:34.700 --> 0:17:36.220 But like, OK, back to work. 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.080 And it goes back to like the points I think 0:17:39.100 --> 0:17:40.760 both of you are making about like he really sees 0:17:40.800 --> 0:17:45.080 himself as this underdog slash warrior. Right. Like he has 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:48.170 to be the person who's moving things forward like making 0:17:48.210 --> 0:17:51.590 these dreams possible. And that plays into like so much 0:17:51.690 --> 0:17:53.070 of his, his ethos. 0:17:54.369 --> 0:17:55.850 It's funny. We put the, put the episode up on 0:17:55.890 --> 0:17:58.290 YouTube and the, and the most liked comment on YouTube 0:17:58.350 --> 0:18:00.830 is somebody noticing that he's playing an RPG in the background. 0:18:00.869 --> 0:18:03.490 So then there's something. 0:18:05.080 --> 0:18:05.900 Do we know what he's playing? 0:18:06.780 --> 0:18:08.580 Manga, should you figure it out? 0:18:08.740 --> 0:18:09.980 We did, but I've forgotten it now. 0:18:12.320 --> 0:18:15.869 Let's turn to politics. I mean, I thought the most 0:18:16.270 --> 0:18:19.870 sort of self-reflective moment was actually about the involvement in politics. 0:18:20.430 --> 0:18:21.270 Let's play the tape. 0:18:21.890 --> 0:18:25.710 You just said something interesting about your year away from 0:18:26.100 --> 0:18:30.260 XXAI and everything else in government and politics. Do you 0:18:30.580 --> 0:18:33.600 feel that that was too much of a distraction, that 0:18:33.820 --> 0:18:35.520 in retrospect it was misbegotten? 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:40.420 I think I, I think I, I had it gone 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:46.340 for too long. So, um, you know, I mean, obviously 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:47.940 a lot of people will disagree with me about this, 0:18:47.980 --> 0:18:50.840 but I, I think it's important, it was important to elect, uh, 0:18:50.940 --> 0:18:54.220 president Trump to sort of, you know, steer things more 0:18:54.260 --> 0:18:58.550 in the direction of a free market economy. Um, you know, 0:18:58.619 --> 0:19:02.450 have less bureaucracy ideally. Um, I mean, it was, it 0:19:02.470 --> 0:19:05.850 was interesting to sort of go around with, uh, president 0:19:05.869 --> 0:19:08.330 Trump and, you know, on the Marine one and Air 0:19:08.350 --> 0:19:12.129 Force one and all that sort of stuff. But then 0:19:13.109 --> 0:19:16.590 what I should have done, I think, was be more 0:19:16.650 --> 0:19:17.449 in the background. 0:19:18.109 --> 0:19:19.760 But was that too seductive in a way? 0:19:20.690 --> 0:19:21.520 It was a little bit. 0:19:21.660 --> 0:19:24.320 Yeah, you seemed to get a bit too intoxicated by 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:27.659 it in a way with the chainsaws and all that. 0:19:28.460 --> 0:19:32.860 Yeah, I think that's true. I carried away, basically. Yeah, 0:19:32.900 --> 0:19:37.560 I mean, so I ended up leaving sometime in May uh. 0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:44.770 That was a weird weekend yeah it was uh tell 0:19:44.810 --> 0:19:45.510 me about. 0:19:45.250 --> 0:19:50.000 It no no i can't let's not take up the... 0:19:50.380 --> 0:19:55.120 Let sleeping dogs lie or whatever, you know. Let's not 0:19:55.160 --> 0:19:57.140 put a spade down in the backyard type of thing. 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:04.010 You never know what you're going to find. But yeah, anyway, 0:20:04.030 --> 0:20:06.630 the point is I should have gone back and focused 0:20:06.790 --> 0:20:09.890 on AI a little sooner than I did. 0:20:10.980 --> 0:20:13.990 And did you feel like when he gives you a 0:20:14.010 --> 0:20:17.389 golden key, you're going, did you kind of feel relieved? Like, actually, 0:20:17.450 --> 0:20:20.929 this has been intoxicating, but I can do more if 0:20:20.970 --> 0:20:23.310 I go back to my businesses? I mean, what did 0:20:23.350 --> 0:20:25.990 you feel when you said, oh, man, I'm exiting. Maybe 0:20:26.020 --> 0:20:27.140 that's not the worst thing. 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.260 Well, actually, the thing is I came to the conclusion 0:20:33.300 --> 0:20:37.660 that there was no way we were going to solve 0:20:37.700 --> 0:20:39.700 the deficit from within the government. 0:20:39.770 --> 0:20:40.270 Impossible. 0:20:41.090 --> 0:20:42.729 And he goes on to say the reason it's impossible 0:20:42.770 --> 0:20:45.210 is because President Trump wants to be liked too much 0:20:45.270 --> 0:20:50.130 to make the hard decisions. But how do you understand 0:20:50.170 --> 0:20:53.369 this kind of sense of regret about the involvement with Doge, 0:20:53.410 --> 0:20:56.210 but also the enormous binge of check writing in the 0:20:56.250 --> 0:20:57.310 last couple of weeks? 0:20:58.570 --> 0:21:02.929 I mean, it feels like a bit of almost like retconning. 0:21:04.780 --> 0:21:08.340 He wasn't just like organically retconning. He didn't just make 0:21:08.380 --> 0:21:12.340 a decision to leave in a vacuum. His work was 0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:17.180 becoming increasingly untenable and unpopular. His relationship with the president 0:21:17.240 --> 0:21:23.310 was fraying. He ultimately accuses the president of being in 0:21:23.330 --> 0:21:27.610 the Epstein files. And it's just everything goes down like 0:21:27.650 --> 0:21:31.630 kind of in flames. I think the most revelatory part 0:21:31.650 --> 0:21:33.850 of that to me, though, and I'm like kind of 0:21:33.910 --> 0:21:37.930 shocked that He admitted it like like his intoxication with 0:21:37.970 --> 0:21:40.450 the pageantry of it all, like being on Marine One. 0:21:42.350 --> 0:21:44.550 It's just it's wild to me that, you know, you 0:21:44.850 --> 0:21:48.470 can be someone so rich and so powerful and still 0:21:48.790 --> 0:21:53.869 like feel something and like feel some unfulfilled fantasy or 0:21:53.890 --> 0:21:57.050 whatever it is by being next to the president on 0:21:57.070 --> 0:22:01.840 a helicopter. I think that that was revelatory to me. 0:22:02.450 --> 0:22:08.290 But as for his view on. why or how he left. 0:22:08.310 --> 0:22:08.389 I. 0:22:09.970 --> 0:22:12.369 Think that answer would have been more interesting a year earlier. 0:22:12.830 --> 0:22:16.450 He didn't want to put that spade down into the backyard, sadly. 0:22:16.490 --> 0:22:17.950 I think I would have been quite, I would have 0:22:17.990 --> 0:22:19.550 wanted to know what he had in mind. 0:22:19.609 --> 0:22:20.470 I agree. 0:22:21.670 --> 0:22:25.870 There is, I mean, in those questions, I almost felt 0:22:25.970 --> 0:22:33.119 Walter pushing Elon to a regret Like, like, does Elon 0:22:33.160 --> 0:22:35.230 really regret it? I can't I don't I don't I 0:22:35.270 --> 0:22:38.310 can't quite tell in in in what he's saying. I mean, 0:22:38.730 --> 0:22:42.629 he and I think I think it's because there's a 0:22:42.670 --> 0:22:47.139 disconnect between the the sort of Elon Musk where he 0:22:47.220 --> 0:22:50.560 is politically and where a lot of his following is 0:22:50.660 --> 0:22:53.080 where his like following sees him as like a very 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:58.669 effective technologist. not as the primary financer of the far 0:22:58.770 --> 0:23:03.320 right around the world, not as somebody who was ruthlessly 0:23:03.380 --> 0:23:09.290 laying off government workers, including parts of the government that 0:23:09.330 --> 0:23:12.750 were responsible for saving millions of lives in Africa. It 0:23:13.150 --> 0:23:18.780 was this incredible moment and disorienting moment in which Elon 0:23:18.820 --> 0:23:22.160 Musk's brand as this green technologist and also a very 0:23:22.200 --> 0:23:27.520 effective technologist kind of fell apart. He was ineffective, as 0:23:28.100 --> 0:23:30.859 Fez is saying, and he was pushing a bunch of 0:23:30.900 --> 0:23:35.050 policies that vast parts of his you know, of his 0:23:35.090 --> 0:23:38.970 fan base, you know, profoundly disagree with. And so and 0:23:39.010 --> 0:23:40.800 so it's like it's very hard to hold those two 0:23:40.859 --> 0:23:43.419 things in your head. And it's not clear to me 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:48.120 that Elon himself quite knows how to square that circle. 0:23:48.240 --> 0:23:52.100 He keeps talking about stepping away from politics and then 0:23:52.940 --> 0:23:55.310 keeps writing these these massive checks. 0:23:55.369 --> 0:23:58.389 And I fully expect, you know, if J.D. 0:23:58.430 --> 0:24:01.250 Vance is the Republican nominee in twenty twenty eight, which 0:24:01.470 --> 0:24:05.170 I think is the most likely scenario, that Elon Musk 0:24:05.210 --> 0:24:07.130 will be a major. 0:24:06.850 --> 0:24:07.410 Backer of J.D. 0:24:07.510 --> 0:24:09.930 Vance, that he's going to be back on Marine One, possibly, 0:24:09.950 --> 0:24:12.560 you know, assuming he can't contain himself. 0:24:13.240 --> 0:24:15.699 Let's not forget, Tesla was in hell, right? Like they 0:24:15.740 --> 0:24:18.400 had to have a, you know, there was what, like 0:24:19.500 --> 0:24:23.830 people throwing, I don't know, Molotovs, whatever, whatever was happening 0:24:24.070 --> 0:24:28.810 at the Tesla showrooms. And the stock was just a bloodbath. 0:24:29.230 --> 0:24:33.850 And Trump had to essentially like attempt to prop this 0:24:33.910 --> 0:24:35.950 thing up or whatever. 0:24:35.970 --> 0:24:40.060 By bringing the red Tesla onto the White House lawn. 0:24:40.440 --> 0:24:43.040 You may read that more generously as like, I don't know, 0:24:43.080 --> 0:24:45.840 doing a favor for a friend as inappropriate as that 0:24:45.880 --> 0:24:50.000 would be given their positions. But yeah, I mean, there 0:24:50.040 --> 0:24:53.320 was a lot of external pressure that was driving Elon 0:24:53.560 --> 0:24:56.990 away from government. It wasn't just a matter of like, oh, 0:24:57.600 --> 0:25:01.180 Like I, I was, you know, too enamored by this 0:25:01.260 --> 0:25:04.359 and maybe stayed too long. It was like, no, you 0:25:04.460 --> 0:25:08.820 actually have now undercut your business. As Max points out, 0:25:08.900 --> 0:25:13.090 like that was driven largely by, you know, these sort 0:25:13.130 --> 0:25:16.889 of climate advocates or at least people who were sympathetic 0:25:16.910 --> 0:25:19.730 to the climate movement in California. Like there was just 0:25:19.770 --> 0:25:23.390 a base for this business that was clearly eroding because 0:25:23.430 --> 0:25:24.110 of his decisions. 0:25:24.950 --> 0:25:27.520 I feel compelled to point out, though, that it worked. 0:25:27.890 --> 0:25:32.120 I mean, you know, as much as I think there 0:25:32.180 --> 0:25:34.960 are ways in which, you know, if Tesla were to 0:25:35.000 --> 0:25:38.020 collapse in a few years, we would look back on 0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:41.920 the on the dalliance with Trump as as the beginning 0:25:41.940 --> 0:25:42.260 of that. 0:25:42.280 --> 0:25:42.350 But. 0:25:44.290 --> 0:25:47.230 It's been really good for Tesla. I mean, like, you know, 0:25:47.350 --> 0:25:49.350 and for Elon Musk, you know, his his net worth 0:25:49.390 --> 0:25:53.270 has gone way up. Yes, it's true that Donald Trump 0:25:53.369 --> 0:25:57.210 got rid of the subsidies that were a big part 0:25:57.250 --> 0:26:00.840 of Tesla's profit margins. And, you know, this and, you know, 0:26:01.060 --> 0:26:02.500 as Trump likes to say, you know, got rid of 0:26:02.540 --> 0:26:05.359 the electric mandate. But that's kind of worked for Tesla 0:26:05.380 --> 0:26:07.960 in a way because it's caused every other automaker to. 0:26:08.410 --> 0:26:11.149 outside of China to like give up on EVs. And 0:26:11.190 --> 0:26:13.530 it's in a way kind of cleared out a bunch 0:26:13.550 --> 0:26:17.770 of companies that were starting to, you know, potentially, you know, 0:26:17.810 --> 0:26:21.610 present a real threat while creating a bunch of policies 0:26:22.050 --> 0:26:25.210 that have allowed Elon Musk to like reshape this company 0:26:25.630 --> 0:26:28.210 as an AI play and to kind of like put 0:26:28.250 --> 0:26:30.650 the car business aside. And like, you know, you look 0:26:30.690 --> 0:26:32.070 back on this and you say like, what did he 0:26:32.109 --> 0:26:35.860 get for his $ 300 million? Now it's like probably almost 0:26:35.859 --> 0:26:40.520 $ 700 million of, political contributions and like his net worth 0:26:40.960 --> 0:26:43.750 has gone up, you know, threefold or something like that. 0:26:43.790 --> 0:26:45.990 I haven't I haven't done the math recently, but, you know, 0:26:46.030 --> 0:26:49.130 he's a trillionaire. It's it's it's it's worked incredibly well, 0:26:49.210 --> 0:26:50.290 at least, you know, for now. 0:26:51.570 --> 0:26:54.050 So look at the weird dynamics like with Tesla itself, 0:26:54.190 --> 0:26:56.840 like they yesterday on their earnings, they report they report 0:26:56.859 --> 0:26:59.880 this like slight demand bump. And why is that happening? 0:26:59.940 --> 0:27:03.399 Because oil prices are super high because Trump started a war. 0:27:04.140 --> 0:27:07.140 And it's like, yeah, like there are just these roundabout 0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:10.280 ways even if there are also direct ways in which 0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:13.160 there were decisions made that were going to benefit Tesla. 0:27:13.200 --> 0:27:16.240 But yeah, there are ways that Elon can look back 0:27:16.300 --> 0:27:19.070 at this and say like, oh, I have done the 0:27:19.090 --> 0:27:22.369 right thing despite the cost to everything and everyone around him. 0:27:23.070 --> 0:27:23.389 Mangesh? 0:27:23.869 --> 0:27:25.750 Oh, I was going to say like, you know, there 0:27:25.830 --> 0:27:31.510 is something, the intoxication of the chainsaw stuff and all 0:27:31.550 --> 0:27:34.409 that like was surprising. Also surprising to me was the 0:27:34.430 --> 0:27:37.359 fact that he says like, I think 75% of America 0:27:37.410 --> 0:27:40.120 likes me because I'm looking at Twitter and I see 0:27:40.140 --> 0:27:42.540 in my comments that that's what, and so like, I 0:27:42.580 --> 0:27:45.640 do think there's this way in which in that moment, 0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:50.350 it was such a valley versus the SpaceX IPO being 0:27:50.390 --> 0:27:52.810 such a peak, right? And I do think there is 0:27:52.910 --> 0:27:57.510 some regret because he was perceived publicly in bad light 0:27:57.550 --> 0:28:00.709 during that moment, but obviously it's a net win for him. 0:28:03.260 --> 0:28:05.280 When we come back, We're going to hear from the 0:28:05.359 --> 0:28:09.070 builder of builders about everything from AI to the Antichrist. 0:28:09.570 --> 0:28:10.480 Stay with us. 0:28:22.550 --> 0:28:26.929 Welcome back. From Elon Musk to Peter Thiel. I want 0:28:26.950 --> 0:28:28.710 to play some clips from that interview. But before we 0:28:28.750 --> 0:28:31.109 do that, Mangesh, what were some of your favorite behind-the-scenes 0:28:31.150 --> 0:28:31.889 moments from this one? 0:28:32.470 --> 0:28:34.830 I mean, I think In the way that I was 0:28:35.090 --> 0:28:37.450 a little too optimistic that we'd get Musk, I was 0:28:37.930 --> 0:28:41.670 completely pessimistic that we'd get Thiel. He'd done that Douthat interview, 0:28:41.690 --> 0:28:45.480 that pause had gone viral, and, you know. 0:28:45.500 --> 0:28:48.460 The pause about whether humanity should. 0:28:50.360 --> 0:28:51.340 Should continue to exist. 0:28:54.280 --> 0:28:56.020 And people are commenting, is it, is this like a 0:28:56.040 --> 0:29:01.290 computer glitching? Right. But, um, I think one thing you 0:29:01.310 --> 0:29:05.670 discovered was that, uh, Teal actually has multiple copies of 0:29:05.710 --> 0:29:06.370 Walter's books. 0:29:06.390 --> 0:29:07.510 I did hear that. I did hear that. 0:29:07.890 --> 0:29:09.489 And so we thought, Oh. 0:29:09.550 --> 0:29:11.190 There's a sliver of a chance. We were talking to 0:29:11.210 --> 0:29:14.100 people on every continent, trying to figure out like how to, 0:29:14.180 --> 0:29:16.990 how to coordinate them. And, and, uh, You know, so 0:29:17.030 --> 0:29:19.650 many of these interviews just fall apart like a day 0:29:19.810 --> 0:29:21.870 of like all these people talk about how much they 0:29:21.990 --> 0:29:26.469 love canceling interviews. And you talk to like eight handlers. 0:29:26.770 --> 0:29:29.690 You have like security sweeps of the studios. You have 0:29:29.750 --> 0:29:33.390 like eight bodyguards traveling with various people. And then they 0:29:33.410 --> 0:29:34.950 decide they just want to go out to coffee with 0:29:34.990 --> 0:29:38.350 Walter instead of doing an interview. Which wasn't the case 0:29:38.390 --> 0:29:39.590 in this one, but it was the case in some 0:29:39.610 --> 0:29:41.670 of the others. And so like, I was just kind 0:29:41.710 --> 0:29:44.900 of stunned that we got Teal on tape. But I think, 0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:48.880 you know, both of you, Max and Fez, like know 0:29:49.020 --> 0:29:51.280 this world better. But I was kind of stunned by 0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:55.530 how charismatic or a certain type of charisma Teal had 0:29:55.720 --> 0:29:58.450 in person. And that like the pauses don't really exist 0:29:58.870 --> 0:30:00.670 They do exist on tape, but they don't exist in 0:30:00.810 --> 0:30:03.790 person in the same way. And you think about like 0:30:03.910 --> 0:30:07.490 the Gawker lawsuit or like the Antichrist or like, you know, 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:11.959 the shadowy work he does behind campaigns. And like it 0:30:12.260 --> 0:30:15.100 is interesting to see that sort of like charisma in 0:30:15.140 --> 0:30:17.620 person and also why like Zero to One is such 0:30:17.700 --> 0:30:19.740 an important book to Silicon Valley. 0:30:20.460 --> 0:30:22.350 Max, did you get any legal threats for your book? 0:30:23.270 --> 0:30:27.750 No, nothing that was, you know, nothing that's, you know, 0:30:27.910 --> 0:30:31.240 nothing of significance. And I always feel compelled to say, 0:30:32.100 --> 0:30:35.620 so the book that I published, it's fair, but it's critical. 0:30:35.660 --> 0:30:40.840 It is not like the Teal fanboy perspective, although that 0:30:40.880 --> 0:30:45.080 perspective is certainly included in the book. And I approached 0:30:45.100 --> 0:30:51.610 Teal and attempted to, you know, to secure his participation 0:30:51.700 --> 0:30:54.459 and And, you know, through the process, he kind of 0:30:54.550 --> 0:30:56.050 he kind of kept me at arm's length. 0:30:56.090 --> 0:30:57.950 He he I met with him. 0:30:59.550 --> 0:31:01.310 There was some back and forth and I met with 0:31:01.370 --> 0:31:04.430 him off the record in a meeting that I described 0:31:04.450 --> 0:31:06.560 in the book, although didn't quote from. And, you know, 0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:09.820 ultimately he he declined to to like sit down with 0:31:09.840 --> 0:31:13.460 me on the record. There's sometimes people will will not 0:31:13.500 --> 0:31:15.610 speak to you, but but seem interested in seeing the 0:31:15.640 --> 0:31:16.990 book published. 0:31:17.660 --> 0:31:19.590 And towards the end of the process, that was not 0:31:19.630 --> 0:31:20.590 the vibe that I had. 0:31:20.950 --> 0:31:23.710 But I have to say that I was not subjected 0:31:24.190 --> 0:31:29.410 to intimidation. He basically allowed me to do my job 0:31:29.570 --> 0:31:33.110 and allowed the book to exist and allowed critical journalism 0:31:33.150 --> 0:31:39.200 about him to exist, which is very obviously different from 0:31:39.220 --> 0:31:42.200 the Gawker situation. I always feel compelled to say that 0:31:42.260 --> 0:31:45.920 because I do think what he did to Gawker You 0:31:45.940 --> 0:31:49.610 can debate like the ethics of it, but it had 0:31:49.770 --> 0:31:53.370 a real chilling effect on journalism and the profession of journalism. 0:31:53.410 --> 0:31:57.430 And it changed how many, many wealthy people relate to 0:31:57.470 --> 0:31:59.710 the media. It kind of opened it like moved the 0:31:59.790 --> 0:32:04.020 Everton window, the Everton window, the Overton window on on 0:32:04.420 --> 0:32:08.260 on like what is permissible in terms of what you 0:32:08.320 --> 0:32:11.200 can do in terms of intimidating a journalist. And at 0:32:11.220 --> 0:32:13.760 the time, Thiel said, no, no, no, that is not 0:32:13.800 --> 0:32:16.200 my goal. He's all along said he didn't want to 0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:16.880 do that. 0:32:16.920 --> 0:32:18.160 It was a specific instance. 0:32:18.860 --> 0:32:19.460 Do you believe that? 0:32:20.040 --> 0:32:22.620 Well, I don't know if I believe it, but I 0:32:22.660 --> 0:32:24.500 do have to say I feel like it's an important 0:32:24.560 --> 0:32:27.720 fact that in this one case, he didn't, you know 0:32:27.740 --> 0:32:28.050 what I mean? 0:32:28.090 --> 0:32:30.630 Like he lived his values, if those are in fact 0:32:30.650 --> 0:32:31.150 his values. 0:32:32.390 --> 0:32:34.190 Max, I'm not really a Premier League guy, but I 0:32:34.230 --> 0:32:36.330 think the Everton window is closed and has been closed. 0:32:37.910 --> 0:32:40.030 Well, it's better than a Manchester United window, that's for 0:32:40.050 --> 0:32:44.410 damn sure. 0:32:44.450 --> 0:32:47.840 But Max, you did meet him. Were you surprised that 0:32:48.340 --> 0:32:54.100 he looked you in the eye? Having met some of 0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:56.940 these other founders and stuff, the way they have a 0:32:56.960 --> 0:32:59.860 difficulty communicating, I was kind of surprised by that. 0:33:00.330 --> 0:33:03.040 Teal is like a I found Teal to be a 0:33:03.140 --> 0:33:07.040 very interesting subject and kind of like endlessly fascinating because 0:33:07.060 --> 0:33:09.860 he's he's a guy with with all these contradictions, but 0:33:09.980 --> 0:33:14.350 also because he's somebody who is not as afraid. Like 0:33:14.450 --> 0:33:17.670 Elon Musk, that the point you made about 75 percent 0:33:17.710 --> 0:33:20.380 of America likes Elon Musk wants to be loved. He's 0:33:20.390 --> 0:33:24.540 got this feeling that I think many people who perform 0:33:24.620 --> 0:33:27.060 on stage have, which is he gets a real charge 0:33:27.100 --> 0:33:31.070 from the crowd, and he reads his mentions. If somebody 0:33:31.110 --> 0:33:33.650 somewhere says something negative about Elon Musk, there's a very 0:33:33.670 --> 0:33:35.990 good chance that Elon Musk will see it and remember. 0:33:36.740 --> 0:33:39.970 And Teal, it's not like he isn't aware of his critics. 0:33:40.010 --> 0:33:42.190 He's hyper aware of his critics, but. 0:33:42.110 --> 0:33:46.110 He's also somebody who is not afraid to have critics 0:33:46.470 --> 0:33:49.850 and throughout his career has, I think, almost valued it. Like, 0:33:50.130 --> 0:33:54.010 it's not that he he has this like superhero persona 0:33:54.410 --> 0:33:57.550 with his fans and a supervillain persona with the people 0:33:57.890 --> 0:34:00.750 who do not like him. who see him as this 0:34:00.810 --> 0:34:04.920 kind of inventor of shadowy technologies that, that do surveillance 0:34:04.980 --> 0:34:08.339 and shadowy right wing stuff. And I would argue that 0:34:08.380 --> 0:34:12.040 he has cultivated both of those brands. Like being a 0:34:12.080 --> 0:34:15.569 supervillain is his brand. He kind of likes it, I think. 0:34:15.910 --> 0:34:18.089 And I'm not sure if he would ever admit that, but, but, 0:34:18.210 --> 0:34:20.590 but he has at times and he's talked, talked to 0:34:20.630 --> 0:34:22.270 people at times. And I think even recently in a 0:34:22.310 --> 0:34:26.250 public interview somewhere, I can't remember, talked about being seen 0:34:26.910 --> 0:34:30.469 as being evil is not necessarily the worst thing in 0:34:30.489 --> 0:34:33.330 the world because it's being seen as capable. 0:34:34.050 --> 0:34:36.660 That's organic transmission of content to the world that we love. 0:34:36.739 --> 0:34:39.860 I have to say, I saw that clip and I 0:34:39.900 --> 0:34:43.819 was like, wow, like he's saying this thing that in 0:34:43.880 --> 0:34:46.330 my book, like if you go and look in the book, 0:34:46.370 --> 0:34:48.690 it's attributed to somebody, you know, a friend, I forget, 0:34:48.810 --> 0:34:52.560 but like, it's not, it's not an on the record assessment. And, 0:34:52.820 --> 0:34:55.120 and like, and, and so just seeing him come out 0:34:55.140 --> 0:34:57.640 and say it, it was, was staggering, but I definitely 0:34:57.660 --> 0:35:01.899 think it's true. He understands the power of, of like 0:35:02.040 --> 0:35:05.969 being reviled or being feared or, or that, that adds 0:35:06.010 --> 0:35:09.469 its own kind of, um, that's a compliment in a way. 0:35:10.150 --> 0:35:12.380 But also everything's chess to him. Right. Like it feels 0:35:12.420 --> 0:35:15.839 like everything's just like thinking, like thinking steps ahead, which 0:35:15.900 --> 0:35:18.420 he even says is why he goes silent. Right. Is 0:35:18.480 --> 0:35:20.940 like he's trying to think about like what is the 0:35:20.980 --> 0:35:23.830 response and how do I respond to that response? 0:35:23.890 --> 0:35:24.109 Right. 0:35:24.170 --> 0:35:28.110 Like it is an interesting perspective versus the sort of 0:35:28.170 --> 0:35:32.650 like racing to have a certain feeling of joy or 0:35:33.010 --> 0:35:33.770 elation or whatever. 0:35:34.670 --> 0:35:36.009 I mean, you say you talked in the interview about 0:35:36.050 --> 0:35:39.730 how the DMV is bad and evil is better than bad. 0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:41.899 And in the moment, I was like, well, that's kind 0:35:41.940 --> 0:35:44.040 of compelling and quite funny and interesting. But then I 0:35:44.060 --> 0:35:47.880 sort of thought afterwards, but I'm not sure if you 0:35:47.900 --> 0:35:50.540 can really say that evil is better than bad. I mean, 0:35:50.660 --> 0:35:52.620 I kind of get what he's driving at, but also 0:35:53.640 --> 0:35:55.490 that's a little spooky. 0:35:55.590 --> 0:35:58.510 Well, I always have this feeling, one of the feelings 0:35:58.570 --> 0:36:03.549 I've had in kind of consuming every piece of Teal 0:36:03.610 --> 0:36:08.170 writing and content is that his critique of government has 0:36:08.210 --> 0:36:10.259 always felt a little bit thin to me. Like, is 0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:11.670 this a guy who spent a lot of time at 0:36:11.690 --> 0:36:12.270 the DMV? 0:36:12.310 --> 0:36:13.590 Like, I'm not totally sure. 0:36:13.610 --> 0:36:18.370 And so, like, he'll often say things about the post office. 0:36:18.870 --> 0:36:21.590 He'll make comments about how terrible the experience is at 0:36:21.790 --> 0:36:23.030 the post office or the DMV. 0:36:23.630 --> 0:36:25.359 And I sometimes think a lot of. 0:36:25.390 --> 0:36:30.339 His critique of dysfunction is more just like, it's like 0:36:30.739 --> 0:36:33.880 some inconvenient parts about being a rich guy that is 0:36:33.920 --> 0:36:37.219 actually a lot thinner than many of his fans think. 0:36:37.530 --> 0:36:37.780 Feel. 0:36:37.820 --> 0:36:42.200 He's constantly complaining about air travel and how a key 0:36:42.219 --> 0:36:47.580 part of the stagnation theory for Peter Thiel is that 0:36:47.860 --> 0:36:50.880 we haven't gotten faster planes. And that is an observation 0:36:50.900 --> 0:36:54.200 that I understand makes sense if your main experience of 0:36:54.260 --> 0:36:58.010 air travel is the cabin of your own private jet. 0:36:58.330 --> 0:37:01.140 Whereas if you are a regular person, air travel has 0:37:01.180 --> 0:37:04.190 gotten so much better in that period. It's a perspective 0:37:04.230 --> 0:37:08.009 that is informed by a lot of privilege and in 0:37:08.050 --> 0:37:10.650 a way that I think actually kind of makes the critique, 0:37:11.710 --> 0:37:13.910 you know, less strong than it could be. 0:37:14.450 --> 0:37:16.850 This is how you get USB ports in the seats 0:37:16.950 --> 0:37:19.950 before you get a transit line to another neighborhood, right? 0:37:20.110 --> 0:37:23.879 It's like, what do people who are just seeking these 0:37:23.940 --> 0:37:27.460 sort of luxuries want out of the experience versus what 0:37:27.500 --> 0:37:30.759 is actually going to improve the experience for everyone. And like, 0:37:31.219 --> 0:37:32.520 I don't know, it's just such a great point that 0:37:32.560 --> 0:37:35.080 you just made, Max. Like, why do we take this 0:37:35.219 --> 0:37:37.360 other than the fact that, you know, Tio holds a 0:37:37.380 --> 0:37:41.910 tremendous amount of power? You know, it's not necessarily like 0:37:41.950 --> 0:37:45.290 a serious critique, especially if you're bringing up the DMV 0:37:45.350 --> 0:37:47.610 as somebody who has not spent a significant amount of 0:37:47.650 --> 0:37:49.090 time at the DMV recently. 0:37:49.110 --> 0:37:50.570 I think it's a good moment to go to our 0:37:50.610 --> 0:37:51.650 first clip, which is. 0:37:53.170 --> 0:37:58.560 Walter has this framing of Peter as somebody who invested 0:37:58.580 --> 0:38:02.759 in Elon and financed Vance, and basically as the kind 0:38:02.800 --> 0:38:05.660 of meta-concept of the series is the builders, that Thiel 0:38:05.719 --> 0:38:08.050 is someone who's kind of like a builder of builders. 0:38:08.120 --> 0:38:09.370 So let's roll that clip. 0:38:09.910 --> 0:38:13.830 If you were to back a builder, though, where would 0:38:13.870 --> 0:38:15.990 you rank having a moral compass? 0:38:18.270 --> 0:38:24.860 I rank that... pretty high. I rank that highly. I 0:38:25.700 --> 0:38:33.560 would say, but let's, you know, I, I, I don't 0:38:33.660 --> 0:38:36.799 like investing in companies where it's, it's simply a business. 0:38:37.680 --> 0:38:41.330 There's some transcendent purpose. There's something, you know, very important 0:38:41.370 --> 0:38:47.129 that you're doing. So, you know, Elon going to Mars is, 0:38:48.570 --> 0:38:51.089 I don't know exactly where I would rank that on, 0:38:51.250 --> 0:38:55.109 on sort of a moral good versus evil dimension, but 0:38:55.150 --> 0:38:59.109 it is transcendent. It is, it's somehow, it's not just 0:38:59.170 --> 0:39:01.990 a business. It's, we're not just, you know, a stock 0:39:02.050 --> 0:39:04.719 brokerage where we're making, you know, a few dollars and 0:39:04.760 --> 0:39:07.379 every time people buy and sell stocks, it's, it's not 0:39:07.420 --> 0:39:11.339 just the sort of short-term coin operated business. It has this, 0:39:11.700 --> 0:39:14.500 you know, transcendent sense of purpose. That's what I like. 0:39:16.020 --> 0:39:19.410 Yeah, that, I mean, first of all, Teal's talked about this, 0:39:19.489 --> 0:39:22.290 but he has, uh, He has this problem. 0:39:22.750 --> 0:39:25.060 The title of my book is The Contrarian. He's a contrarian. 0:39:25.340 --> 0:39:28.149 He has a very hard time just kind of agreeing 0:39:28.170 --> 0:39:30.510 with the conventional wisdom. This is one of the problems 0:39:30.550 --> 0:39:34.660 if you're a contrarian. There are certain things where it's 0:39:34.700 --> 0:39:36.989 hard to be contrarian about a question like, should you 0:39:37.030 --> 0:39:39.280 have a moral compass? And you could kind of almost 0:39:39.360 --> 0:39:42.620 hear him... you know, trying to think about how can 0:39:42.640 --> 0:39:46.040 I give an interesting answer to the question that, because 0:39:46.100 --> 0:39:47.899 he doesn't want to just say yes, but he did 0:39:47.980 --> 0:39:50.540 say yes. I, I, in a way, right. He's, he, 0:39:50.680 --> 0:39:54.510 he gave his own kind of definition of, of like 0:39:54.660 --> 0:39:58.310 what he would see as morality and purpose in a company. 0:39:58.650 --> 0:40:00.370 And I do think, I mean, I think he very 0:40:00.410 --> 0:40:04.890 much has that, that sense of, of, of, uh, of 0:40:04.969 --> 0:40:07.680 a you know, worldview that includes things like good and 0:40:07.739 --> 0:40:09.920 evil and so on. It's just like a very different, 0:40:10.060 --> 0:40:14.549 very different definitions of what of like what moral superiority 0:40:14.630 --> 0:40:16.810 would be to most people. 0:40:17.810 --> 0:40:19.969 I think just for a final clip, the kind of 0:40:20.690 --> 0:40:25.500 politics and geopolitics of both of these figures and China 0:40:26.020 --> 0:40:28.820 is a really kind of important and fascinating thread. And 0:40:29.219 --> 0:40:32.219 Walter was asking Peter about what he thought about this, 0:40:32.420 --> 0:40:34.680 you know, the context of whether or not there should 0:40:34.700 --> 0:40:36.510 be a pause on AI development. 0:40:36.969 --> 0:40:39.970 Your old friend, David Sachs, and of course, President Trump 0:40:40.030 --> 0:40:43.950 are now saying, because of the competition with China, stop 0:40:44.150 --> 0:40:47.609 talking about pausing AI, even if you think it could 0:40:47.670 --> 0:40:49.750 be an existential threat. Do you agree with that? 0:40:53.989 --> 0:40:57.070 Yes, yes, I broadly agree with that. I would say 0:40:57.150 --> 0:41:01.330 the challenge that I've been friends with David Sachs for 0:41:01.350 --> 0:41:05.530 many decades. The thing that makes me less comfortable making 0:41:06.030 --> 0:41:10.520 those kinds of arguments publicly is that on some level, 0:41:10.860 --> 0:41:13.420 it's hard when the big companies themselves are telling you 0:41:13.460 --> 0:41:14.839 to stop and to slow down. 0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:17.620 So that's caused you to have some pause because you 0:41:17.700 --> 0:41:20.060 were not in the pause button camp. 0:41:20.820 --> 0:41:23.120 Well, I'm still not in the pause button camp. And 0:41:23.420 --> 0:41:24.880 I'm saying this on your show that I'm not in 0:41:24.900 --> 0:41:27.900 the pause button. We need to hit the accelerator as 0:41:27.980 --> 0:41:28.950 hard as possible. 0:41:29.300 --> 0:41:31.250 Well, wait a minute. Let me stop there. Why haven't 0:41:31.430 --> 0:41:35.670 the past few weeks caused you to be more amenable 0:41:35.710 --> 0:41:38.850 to a pause button? It's pretty scary, that hugging phase. 0:41:38.870 --> 0:41:41.770 You know, I think in some ways you have to 0:41:41.810 --> 0:41:44.919 develop the AI technology to control the AI technology. So 0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:48.880 if you assume China will develop things like that, it's 0:41:48.960 --> 0:41:50.719 more imperative than ever that we stay ahead of them. 0:41:50.780 --> 0:41:53.900 So if you look at it geopolitically, maybe you can 0:41:53.960 --> 0:41:56.390 even interpret something like the hugging phase thing as It's 0:41:56.450 --> 0:41:59.319 so imperative that we not lose the lead and that 0:41:59.340 --> 0:42:01.279 we get, you know, cyber attack to death. 0:42:02.140 --> 0:42:03.719 Walter went on to ask him, well, if there was 0:42:03.780 --> 0:42:06.260 no China, would you be more amenable to a pause button? 0:42:06.300 --> 0:42:10.320 To which Thiel replied, apart from that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln? 0:42:10.340 --> 0:42:12.870 Which gave us a chuckle in the control room. But 0:42:12.890 --> 0:42:16.830 what I mean, how do you how do you interpret 0:42:16.870 --> 0:42:17.270 this mix? 0:42:17.730 --> 0:42:21.750 So his comment about accelerationism, we should hit the accelerator. 0:42:21.790 --> 0:42:24.520 Let's like make the AI better. you know, that's very 0:42:24.560 --> 0:42:27.359 much in line with like his overall worldview, which is that, 0:42:27.430 --> 0:42:31.049 which I alluded to earlier, which is that tech is 0:42:31.110 --> 0:42:33.250 not doing as much as it could. And I think 0:42:33.290 --> 0:42:38.130 that perspective, a lot of technologists share that perspective. And 0:42:38.170 --> 0:42:39.810 I think if you, even a lot of people in 0:42:39.930 --> 0:42:43.620 AI share that perspective that, you know, that, you know, 0:42:43.739 --> 0:42:46.859 like they're not as worried about what this technology could 0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:50.100 do as what it can't do. I will say that, 0:42:51.210 --> 0:42:54.810 Thiel is a guy who talks his book and who 0:42:54.930 --> 0:43:00.740 often has really melded in a seamless and very interesting 0:43:00.780 --> 0:43:05.540 way his ideology with his business portfolio and saying that 0:43:05.680 --> 0:43:11.610 being pro-acceleration and AI is definitely good for business and 0:43:11.770 --> 0:43:16.870 good for his financial portfolio and that makes sense. I 0:43:16.910 --> 0:43:20.489 also think it's worth applying the same filter to some 0:43:20.510 --> 0:43:23.200 of the people who are causing or calling for a pause. 0:43:23.530 --> 0:43:26.919 Like some of these AI companies, I think, also stand 0:43:26.940 --> 0:43:30.339 to benefit financially from some of the warnings that they 0:43:30.380 --> 0:43:33.880 are issuing. So I think it's a somewhat calculated comment. 0:43:35.550 --> 0:43:40.710 Just as a casual observer, it just feels like nuclear 0:43:40.810 --> 0:43:43.590 arms race rhetoric. It's just like, oh yeah, they're building 0:43:43.650 --> 0:43:46.610 something really powerful. We have to build something equally powerful. 0:43:46.640 --> 0:43:49.610 Where does it stop? Is there any Is there anything 0:43:49.750 --> 0:43:52.009 I guess I would have liked to hear, like, you know, 0:43:52.590 --> 0:43:56.549 whether there was any red line, anything that would get 0:43:56.590 --> 0:44:01.230 him to maybe endorse the idea of a pause? And 0:44:01.670 --> 0:44:04.190 if there is not, I think that's quite revelatory. 0:44:04.210 --> 0:44:09.310 You know, Teal's been going around the world, essentially saying 0:44:09.489 --> 0:44:14.860 that anyone who wants to rein in the technology industry 0:44:14.880 --> 0:44:18.670 is is like a candidate for the antichrist, is that 0:44:19.330 --> 0:44:25.140 this is such a dangerous ideology that you should think 0:44:25.200 --> 0:44:29.500 about it in those terms. And look, he's a provocateur, 0:44:29.560 --> 0:44:31.660 he's somebody who likes, like as I said, he likes 0:44:31.719 --> 0:44:36.050 to say controversial things and watch people react. I also 0:44:36.210 --> 0:44:41.989 think that he correctly senses that this is like a 0:44:42.070 --> 0:44:46.670 reaction to what is a very, very powerful and nascent 0:44:46.950 --> 0:44:50.330 political movement that is skeptical of tech and technology. And 0:44:50.350 --> 0:44:56.630 I think Thiel is picking up on something significant in 0:44:56.650 --> 0:44:59.390 the culture and in our world. And yeah, you can 0:44:59.430 --> 0:45:02.630 disagree with his reaction to it is like, push that aside, 0:45:02.650 --> 0:45:05.130 we need to stamp it dead. Whereas I think it's 0:45:05.150 --> 0:45:10.540 very reasonable to ask, do these technologies... as Fez is saying, like, 0:45:10.660 --> 0:45:14.460 where's the line? You know, there's probably a line somewhere, 0:45:14.540 --> 0:45:17.549 and it's pretty weird not to say there is none. 0:45:18.430 --> 0:45:20.890 But again, I just think he's reacting to something that 0:45:20.950 --> 0:45:23.950 is significant. And like, Thiel is very good. He's good 0:45:23.989 --> 0:45:26.790 at picking up these trends early, and I think that's 0:45:26.810 --> 0:45:27.690 what we're watching right now. 0:45:28.650 --> 0:45:30.830 We're going to roll out on a clip of Peter 0:45:30.870 --> 0:45:33.090 Thiel talking about the Antichrist. 0:45:33.890 --> 0:45:36.700 Let me read you something you once said, because I'm 0:45:36.860 --> 0:45:39.730 sort of wrestling, and I mean this... Genuinely, with the 0:45:39.750 --> 0:45:42.969 whole Antichrist thing and what you mean by that. But 0:45:43.010 --> 0:45:45.970 it ties into this new AI moment we're in, which 0:45:45.989 --> 0:45:48.660 you said the way the Antichrist would take over the 0:45:48.700 --> 0:45:53.420 world is you talk about Armageddon nonstop. You talk about 0:45:53.540 --> 0:45:58.700 existential risk nonstop. The Antichrist wouldn't seize power by creating 0:45:58.739 --> 0:46:03.839 an AI apocalypse, but by convincing everyone that the apocalypse 0:46:04.020 --> 0:46:07.120 was coming. Is that what's happening now? 0:46:07.719 --> 0:46:10.120 Well, since I said that like a year and a 0:46:10.140 --> 0:46:13.560 half ago, yeah, I'm tempted to take a victory lap 0:46:13.620 --> 0:46:17.940 of sorts that you have to at least ask certain questions. 0:46:17.960 --> 0:46:20.480 And that's what I would want people to do. 0:46:20.900 --> 0:46:22.640 But wait, explain to me, though, what you mean by 0:46:22.660 --> 0:46:23.480 the Antichrist. 0:46:25.060 --> 0:46:29.219 Well, it is, I mean, it's a sort of medieval 0:46:29.390 --> 0:46:34.550 biblical concept of sort of a tyrant who will somehow 0:46:34.830 --> 0:46:37.920 rule the entire world at the end of history. If 0:46:37.960 --> 0:46:41.540 you think of it in a literary way or, you know, 0:46:42.260 --> 0:46:44.259 sort of a creative way, you can say, well, you know, 0:46:44.320 --> 0:46:46.900 how would the Antichrist come to power in different times 0:46:46.960 --> 0:46:51.480 and different places? And in early modernity, 17th, 18th century, 0:46:51.960 --> 0:46:55.520 perhaps the Antichrist would use science and technology to build 0:46:55.580 --> 0:46:59.029 weapons and take over the world. In my telling, in 0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:02.370 late modernity, we in some ways still think of the 0:47:02.430 --> 0:47:05.709 Antichrist in 17th century categories. We still think it's like 0:47:06.190 --> 0:47:10.490 a doctor's strange love. Edward Teller-type person who builds nuclear 0:47:10.530 --> 0:47:13.590 bombs to conquer the world. But if you think of 0:47:13.610 --> 0:47:17.150 it as a political dimension, the way I think the 0:47:17.210 --> 0:47:20.469 politics work in our society is that the fear of 0:47:20.530 --> 0:47:23.790 science and technology are far more powerful, and that that's 0:47:23.830 --> 0:47:26.509 the kind of thing that would really crystallize things. I 0:47:26.530 --> 0:47:30.629 don't think Greta is the Antichrist. I don't think she's 0:47:30.650 --> 0:47:35.160 the Antichrist, but I think environmentalism You know, there are 0:47:35.180 --> 0:47:35.700 real fears. 0:47:35.760 --> 0:47:38.219 People pushing back on progress is what you're saying. 0:47:38.239 --> 0:47:41.810 Pushing back on progress, but then also pushing for these very, 0:47:41.870 --> 0:47:46.230 very powerful global political structures. Because something like climate change, 0:47:46.910 --> 0:47:48.609 it sounds like the sort of thing where you need 0:47:48.630 --> 0:47:50.190 a global regulatory authority. 0:47:50.469 --> 0:47:55.620 So your big feel is some global regulatory authority. Yeah. 0:47:55.640 --> 0:47:58.120 And again, there are probably versions of that that could 0:47:58.140 --> 0:48:00.279 be good. You know, the nuclear ones we ended up 0:48:00.320 --> 0:48:01.960 with were definitely more good than bad. 0:48:02.580 --> 0:48:03.279 Max, last word to you. 0:48:03.610 --> 0:48:07.299 Yeah, I mean, I think Thiel's worldview is, we opened 0:48:07.320 --> 0:48:09.739 the show talking about living in these guys' heads. I mean, 0:48:10.040 --> 0:48:16.450 Thiel's worldview is that he, him, himself, and people like him, 0:48:16.489 --> 0:48:20.210 including Elon Musk, should run the world, and that technology 0:48:20.510 --> 0:48:23.930 should be the imperative through which we structure our society 0:48:24.219 --> 0:48:26.259 at the expense of democracy. 0:48:26.920 --> 0:48:27.180 And I. 0:48:28.700 --> 0:48:32.239 I think that is interesting and it's worth discussing. It's 0:48:32.260 --> 0:48:35.480 worth talking about, especially in societies where we've decided that 0:48:35.960 --> 0:48:39.000 democracy is a good thing. But I always feel compelled 0:48:39.160 --> 0:48:42.839 to point out that there is no guarantee that we 0:48:42.910 --> 0:48:45.690 live inside of the brains of these people. That is 0:48:45.770 --> 0:48:50.070 what they very much want. And we members of a 0:48:50.469 --> 0:48:53.729 democratic society get to decide. And the fact that that 0:48:54.070 --> 0:48:58.430 is so terrifying to them is interesting and is worth 0:48:58.489 --> 0:49:02.220 exploring and especially in the context of a you know 0:49:02.260 --> 0:49:04.339 democratic society with an election coming and so on. 0:49:04.760 --> 0:49:06.540 On that and that indeed was the mission of this 0:49:06.600 --> 0:49:11.520 show the builders to to reveal these people in in 0:49:11.560 --> 0:49:14.210 their own words and so you can listen to it 0:49:14.250 --> 0:49:17.060 or you get your podcast find it on youtube and 0:49:17.320 --> 0:49:20.070 uh fez and max really this was a fascinating and 0:49:20.090 --> 0:49:23.410 very revealing uh conversation analysis and thank you both so much. 0:49:23.310 --> 0:49:25.230 For joining us thank you so much thank you. 0:49:39.670 --> 0:49:42.550 For Tech Stuff, I'm Azfar Lashin. This episode was produced 0:49:42.610 --> 0:49:45.970 by Eliza Dennis and Mangesh Hattikadur. It was executive produced 0:49:46.030 --> 0:49:49.300 by me and Julian Nutter for Kaleidoscope and Katrine Norvell 0:49:49.320 --> 0:49:53.460 for iHeart Podcasts. Jack Inslee mixed this episode. Kyle Murdoch 0:49:53.480 --> 0:49:56.340 wrote our theme song. And please check out The Builders 0:49:56.680 --> 0:49:57.880 wherever you get your podcasts.